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David Wright, speaking about his manager, Willie Randolph, following yesterday’s season-ending loss…
“He’s a great manager. I’ll go to war with Willie any day. He’s not in here jumping up and down and hollering when we win and he’s not throwing guys under the bus when we lose. It’s not his fault. It’s the 37, 38 guys in this room who didn’t do their jobs.”
Randolph, while talking to reporters after the game…
“I’m the manager of the team. I’m a big boy. I take full responsibility. I have no problem with that…I’m here to win. That’s what it’s all about for me. I’m not here to impress anyone, money is not an issue for me…I’m here to teach these guys how to play winning baseball. When I don’t do that, they’re going to get rid of me, obviously. So, I don’t have any qualms, any worries about stuff like that…
“I grew up in this town. I know how things work. I know how things play. I accept that totally, and I’m fully accountable for what I do on this job.”
…as i wrote after yesterday’s game, while i respect willie’s confidence and believe it is ultimately a good thing, i suspect it may also have helped to create a sense of entitlement that morphed in to a sense of apathy, which led to the team’s uninspired play at the end of the season…ultimately, however, i mostly fault the players, who are professionals, and yet who actually went on record as acknowledging their malaise, like Carlos Delgado, who in early September told reporters, “We’ve got so much talent, I think sometimes we get bored.”…there’s nothing worse than wasted talent unfortunately, and a price will be paid for this disappointment, but it should not be randolph’s job…
…it’s strange…i have read nearly every article, listened to every radio and tv personality, be it local or national, and over the last few days i have talked with former players, as well people who work with the team, who are close to the team, who work in baseball, and who cover the team, and nearly every person ultimately feels willie should not be fired…yet, the comments section at MetsBlog is flooded with people who feel he should go…i mean, even the two mid-day hosts on WFAN, who are notorious for being overly emotional, even they feel randolph should stay…yet, so many fans disagree…i have been writing MetsBlog for just under four years, and i do not ever recall such a disconnect between fans and ‘insiders’…so, one side is either very right, or very wrong…
…for me, it comes down to one thing…as i see it, willie is a winner, he has a winner’s mentality, he works hard, believes in his players, and has only one care in the world, which is to win…frankly, that’s the attitude i want leading this team, and it is why most people believe he should stay…the thing is, he clearly lost a bunch of his players, as they stopped hustling and got complacent as the season dripped on…so, the question is, do the Mets bring in a new manager, who will hopefully be as dedicated as willie, while leaving these bad-habit players in place, or do they keep willie and his work ethic, but surround him with guys, like wright and Luis Castillo, who not only buy in to his style, but actually live it out on the field every single game, regardless of the standings…they can no longer succeed with both…they have squandered too much opportunity to continue…it’s totally unrealistic to believe any player who gave up on willie this season, will suddenly take him serious again next season…
…i choose willie, mostly because i believe in him, but also if for no other reason than i don’t see a more suitable option available…i mean, every team’s fans complain about their manager’s lack of smarts…i went back to read a few blog posts from teams who suffered similar disasters in year’s past, and you could literally cut and paste the current Mets fans complaints on to their fans complaints…and vice-a-versa…hell, there were Yankees fans who wanted to fire Joe Torre, who won them four rings, but whose team stunk to start the year, but now he’s back to being a genius since they’re in the post-season…it’s the nature of the beast, i think…for every fan who wants Lou Pinella, there is a team who fired him, it seems…again, nature of the beast…
…that being said, for willie to continue on as manager he has got to have total control of that locker room…the team’s general manager, and assistant general managers cannot be milling around in private huddles with willie’s players and opponents before a game…also, willie has earned the right to structure his own catching staff, and he has to be able to work with his trainers and coaches in making the final decision about who plays where and when…it cannot come from above him, otherwise the very reason he is remaining on board, that is to say his leadership, is totally undermined…if i am a player on the team and i get along with omar, and i know omar is making all the final decisions, then why should i listen to willie, instead i’ll just liken to omar…it’s just not right…and don’t get me wrong, i am not sure this is an ego thing for omar, etc, it may be strategic, or a way to protect willie…but, he’s a big-league manager now…he’s earned the right…plus, if omar gives up a bit of control, allowing his manager to assert some additional authority, i believe it will go a long way from keeping next year’s players from quitting on him because they’ll know he is the boss…
…at the end of the day, willie has the right mindset and thick skin for this team and for this city…now, he needs a group of players and his own coaches who share the same qualities…in my opinion, it would be wise to retain willie, but to be successful the Mets must give him more power, while building this team beneath him and around the leadership of David Wright…
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He also needs to start making better in game strategic decisions. 2nd and 3rd, 1 out, up by a run on the road, and playing the infield back is not a good one.
Hey Matt -
How about Gary Carter or Ken Oberkfell? The fact that he lost his players when he is supposed to be a “player’s manager” is very telling. It reminds me of comments made during the final months of the Art Howe period.
Willie MUST Go!
i am glad to see most mets fans arent nuts like you. WILLIE MUST STAY
Personal attack. How nice of you.
43-46 in September while Randolph has been at the helm. Last year, they had a huge lead so it was not as noticeable. Delgado saying that they get bored. Talk of feelings of entitlement. Where does that all come from?
My favorite quote of Randolph’s in the last week or so:
“If we smell the roses and sip some champagne, so be it; if not, that’s life.”
Pretty darn inspiring.
Gary “the kid” Carter should replace Willie. I think that Willie is to much like Joe Torre and the Yankees across town, We are not the Yankees and we will never be, so, why pretend we are and try to act like them? Second, Willie made more than a few bad in game decisions that cost us more than a few games. Take back just 2 of those weird decisions and we are in the playoffs. We are passionate about our team and we need a manager that has the same passion. I cant listen to he post game crap anymore, it makes me sick.
Gary Carter brought his minor league team to the championship 2 years in a row, he knows how to motivate the young players and get them feeling confident about themselves. He is also a HOF catcher as well as a champion with the 1986 Mets. HE also knows how to handle a pitching staff and how things work in New York.
I say Fire Willie hire Gary and make some changes on the team. We need to get younger not older and add a few arms in the pen. It all depends on whats out there to trade for or sign.
If he learns to do a SQUEEZE PLAY every now and then and starts using the WHEEL PLAY, it will go a long way
I agree with Matt to a point that if they bring him back, he should be able to hire all the coaches that he wants, not who Omar wants. But, at the same time, how can players who quit on him this year not do it again next year? It’s not like they can are going to get rid of Reyes and Delgado (one’s too young and talented the other has a dead weight contract). He doesn’t seem to have to players’ ears and I don’t see him getting them back next year. If Willie stays this team will under achieve again and we’ll be in for another horrible season, probably worse since we won’t even be in it. Glad I’m not the GM trying to make all these decisions though if asked, I know where I would start
I’ve been a supporter of Willie since last season (after overcoming my concerns about his in-game skills). I liked his demeanor and thought it would help him succeed over the long haul. I don’t believe he is primarily to blame for what went wrong this year.
BUT… having said that, one of the main arguments in Willie’s favor (he’s a winner) has been severely compromised. For the first time, I admit that I have some doubts about whether he can command this clubhouse in the future.
To me, the Mets have a simple choice:
1) Commit to Randolph completely for 2008. That means he picks his own coaching staff. It means front office people stay out of his clubhouse. It means no anonymous quotes about his performance from “management sources”. It means you treat him the way you’d treat LaRussa, Leyland or Cox.
2) Let him go.
It’s pretty simple. If you believe, even after this season, that he is still the right man for the job – then choose option #1. If you no longer believe he can win — or if you find yourself thinking he doesn’t “deserve” the right to pick his own coaches, then pick #2 because at that point you clearly don’t have faith in hi,.
I would still choose #1. But I won’t fault the Mets if they choose #2. And above all — we have to make a choice. There is no door #3.
I vote #1. Nice guy, all class, but strictly a second banana bench coach, not a leader. His on-field strategy deficiencies are well-known. His one great strength–a calm, strong hand at the helm through the rocky seas of 162 games– could not right the ship over the past three weeks. He stood like a stone sphinx for 3 weeks while his players listlessly went through the motions, then cries while addressing them after the final debacle?!
Sorry, but that’s just lame.
Time to bring in someone like Joe Girardi. Young, tough, smart, good motivator. Maybe he can help Jose and Lastings grow up, and help the rest of the team (other than David) pretend to give a s**t.
It’s certainly not all Willie’s fault (Omar’s giving up Bradford, Bell, Lindstrom and Owens, to go with Mota, Schnoenwiess, et al. led to any number of late inning meltdowns). But the way this team quit the last 3 weeks (and played half-heartedly since May), it seems that the best argument in Willie’s defense is that he was irrelevant because he had no control over the players’ efforts. A team with the talent the Mets have needs more than that from a manager.
Agree 100%. As a consultant, when I enter a job situation, I make one thing very clear to the client: if you are going to give me the responsibility for the results, you have to give me the power to succeed or fail on my own terms. Either give me the power AND the responsibility, or give me neither.
Willie needs to be given the opportunity to build his staff and roster to his design, to discipline as he sees fit, and to do all of this free of interference from – and with full supoort of – his GM and the owners…or he should be let go now. You can’t have guys openly questioning his authority (by their words, or lack of them), a GM who meets privately with players to discuss problems, and all the other nonsense that’s gone on the last few months.
If Willie wants to ban dancing on the on-deck circle, he should be given the full support of his management. If he thinks Rickey’s a schmuck, his management should say, “OK Willie, it’s your show. Who do you want?” If he doesn’t perform given those parameters, he goes…and I don’t think he’d have a problem with that.
i am sorry but wiilie is no larussa, leyland or cox
and never will be
I think the Mets have insulated Willie to protect him from making rookie manager mistakes and in the process has stunted his growth and perhaps undermine the respect some players have of him.
You know Omar has a very big role and influence in personnel decisions and even day to day player moves. Rick Peterson and Jerry Manuel are always in Willie’s ear.
I’m afraid that we’ve never really seen Willie manage. I say, keep Willie and get rid of the voices in his head.
interesting perspective.
I think that the main reason people are inclined to give Willie a pass is because the complete breakdown and failure of the pitching overshadows any of his faults. At least, it overshadows the importance of strategic mistakes. Indeed, the one who really looks bad when the entire staff struggles is the guy who put the team together in the first place.
On the other hand, Willie’s main job is to motivate and it seems clear that he did not succeed in doing that this year. That alone may not be reason to get rid of him; for it is possible that he is still the person who can best motivate the team next year. After all, people and situations do change. But to keep him, I think management has to come up with a reason for believing that the team will play harder for Willie next year, and harder for him than they will any particular alternative.
Keeping Willie sends the wrong message to the team. It means that all is ok. Willie is not going to change, and neither are the players. I agree that IF he is back, he does need to be given autonomy in that clubhouse. I don’t want to wonder if Lawrence or Humber was Omar’s call or Willie’s. We all know my stance on the issue, he is not a good fit for this team and not a good fit for the NL…that being said, something has to be done. Either Willie, Omar, or a big name guy (maybe Delgado) has to be gone to send a message from the top that this is not tolerated in NY.
All you have to do is look at the way the team performs in September the last 3 years in order to see why Willie should go. He simply doesn’t know how to push the guys over the finish line. They got away with it last year because of the big lead, but in the wild card race in 2005 and division race in 2007, they fell flat on their face. It can’t be just coincidence 3 years in a row.
Willie Randolph’s September Managerial Record
2005 13-15 .464
2006 14-15 .483
2007 14-14 .500
Don’t you see? He’s improving! This year, Willie even gave Mr. Wilpon his meaningful September games!
I always love this kind of logic. Willie did not get the job done. Willie lost key players. Willie’s team lost a 7 game lead in 17 games. Willie could not get his team up for the biggest single game they played this year,
and yet all that being said……
Willie needs more authority next year!
All this amounts to is a backhanded slap to Omar and all the staffers, without whose “interference” Willie’s master plan of finding a nice little rhythym would have played out to World Series glory.
fire all the coaches (except HoJo – & if Willie doesn’t want him, reassign him) and let Willie pick his team for next year. If the team comes out flat next year be quick with the hook (all-star break).
I have to agre, and no offense Cerrone, but my logic professor at Colgate would flunk you for the internal logic of your post.
*agree
My prof would have flunked me for not checking for typos….but, I am not in college or law school anymore and have been spoiled by assistants doing my typing! ;-)
Totally logical argument, and I totally disagree. Your last sentence seems to indicate that Randolph not only deserves a second chance after the greatest regular season collapse in sports history, but they should be rebuilding the team with “Willie guys.” In other words, he deserves more deference, and more control as reward for a job terribly done.
I think it’s great that Wright digs his manager. I also don’t care. This team now has a MAJOR problem with its fans. Another insightful poster talked about whether they really want to see booing on opening day when the Manager is announced. That is exactly what is going to happen if Randolph is manager.
This team will not be given a clean slate by its fans if Randolph is manager. They will be treated unmercifully for every mistake, for every mistake will be a reminder of 2007. Business as usual will simply not do.
I think this is why there is a disconnect. The Mets management truly things that time will heal this, and by Spring, fans will be lining up again happy as clams. I don’t think they get the depth to which they wounded their fan base, and the need to show that they take it seriously.
The only way they can do that, to SHOW, not just to say that they understand how badly the fans feel, is to make a change at manager.
We can, and I’m sure will, go back and forth on this thread about Randolph’s in-game managing, use of bullpen, even keel style, etc. None of that matters anymore. Torre could survive the disaster in the ALCS because they won the division and have won 80,000 world championships over the past decade, even though none lately. To top the suffereing of a Mets fan base that has endurred some pretty significant suffering over the years is in a different league to blowing a playoff series as you get to the playoffs for the 10th year in a row. Very, very different.
The Mets management will rue the day they decided to let Randolph stay, if they do. Will he be a sacrificial lamb that is undeservedly getting the axe? Debatable, but irrelivant. He must go.
Great point. Who cares what Wright says about Willie in the press? What does everyone expect him to say? We all know that he isn’t like Wager. He supported Art Howe for God’s sake.
Oops. That should read “he isn’t Wagner.” LOL Got poker on the brain.
the wilpons are in a tough situation, if this were last yr and this happened youd probably see the open the check book for soriano or lee or zito, to try to buy back the love of the fans. but theres no quick fix sexy free agent out there. which is a recipe for disaster bc now we’re gonna rely on omar trading for improvements. which worked in 06 but not so much in 07.
Wouldn’t mind signing Aaron Rowand, if he’d be willing to play a corner OF.
great. the mets should fire willie because the fans have voted. and not all the fans . . . just the ones who boo loudly at games. the ones who have made life miserable for scores of players and driven many, such as jeff kent, out of town.
every baseball season stands on its own, and there is no reason to believe that this team, with some improvements on the staff (santana, anyone?) would not be winners. i don’t think this same group would ever fall asleep at the wheel again.
AN OPEN LETTER TO THE WILPONS
Fred and Jeff,
How are you? Not well? Right. Neither are the rest of us. I felt compelled to write down a few thoughts on your team from a fan that’s been watching and rooting since the late 70s. Obviously, I’ve seen more than my fair share of weak teams and poor performances. However, even though the dust has not settled on this ineptitude it sits worse with me than any other year. Worse then 2000; worse then 87 & 88; worse then all the wandering years we stopped caring by July. Yes, this is historically unprecedented, but it is they way in which the team conducted itself: arrogant, disinterest, smiling while down five runs in a critical game, handshakes instead of fundamentals, pouting, listlessness, lack of focus, confusion, and like someone stole their puppy (they did; its in Philly). No doubt, there is much talent on this team. However, the problem can be summed up thusly: the team lacks the burning competitive desire to win. Due to this, here are a few thoughts on the roster heading into 2008. Let’s order it roughly in the good, the bad, and the most concerning:
David Wright: forgetting April, the team leader put up historic numbers and did it under immense pressure; we all love David and the fact that he took much of the leadership and media burden on when his teammates shrank down the stretch; however, we also realize he is young and needs to grow into this position not have it thrust upon him
Carlos Beltran: Carlos had a quiet run down the stretch performing decently in pressure situations; he’s done that before and in that way: quietly; here’s the rub on the immensely talented player: he’s the highest paid, the center fielder, cleanup hitter, and thus he needs to be a leader on and off the field; I know some player’s personalities are “quiet” but he needs to mature and get over that or he’s in the wrong situation; I now understand better why he thrived in places like KC and Houston; step up Mr. Beltran
Moises Alou: a revelation at his age to something we knew he could always do: hit; but I also admire his no-nonsense hard, old-school play and attitude; this is something the overall team is sorely lacking; for 2008 this is a tough decision; he could be had at his option making him a good buy; however, how many games does he play; can this team realistically have he and Milledge as the corner outfielders and forgo a big bat? I’m not sure the answer to this but the Mets could do worse in finding a player with his attitude
Luis Castillo: Luis is a grinder and another player who’s attitude was generally beneficial and I believe he’s a winner; I like him in the field but at the plate it can be ugly when the knee isn’t there; 2008 is another tough call here due to age, injury, and cost; if that knee is something that can heal or be fixed I go for a one year deal; if not, the team needs to get younger at this position
Lastings Milledge: you showed flashes of brilliance and I do believe you have the skills to succeed on this level; the attitude also seemed to lessen…a bit; you are still young and I’d like to believe you can be an everyday player next year; keep eating your oatmeal (I think Wheaties have been banned), maturing, learning to hit a curveball, and understand why the “veterans” on this team failed
The Bench (Marlon, Endy, Easley, Castro): these players were a strength and the place to use veterans for clutch hitting, fill-ins, and generally to keep a focused and winning attitude; re-sign as many of them as possible
Shawn Green: thanks for the memories and you really did play well down the stretch and never complained about your reduced role; you leave the team with generally good feelings so best wishes
Catcher: I love Lo Duca’s grit and he would seem to represent the tough, winning attitude I spoke about earlier; however, two things nag at me in that he seems to pop up as the often unnamed player complaining and I wonder how others really feel about him in the clubhouse; oh, and the other is I get a feeling that the pitching staff has been better when Castro is catching; I don’t have the stats to back it up but just a hunch; I could live with a one year duet of Paul & Ramon since there are bigger issues to resolve
Starters: let’s get this right out there: this team cannot return with Pedro, Glavine, and El Duque in the starting rotation; I fear you need to part ways with Tommy as that last performance was Kenny Rogers-esque and the fans won’t take him back; Maine and Perez need to work on consistency but I still believe there’s a lot to tap there; I actually saw late season flashes of dominance in Pelfry; I also saw meltdowns; he and Humber get another shot at #5; is that rotation sufficient for ‘08; I’m not so sure
Carlos Delgado: he’s down on my list due to the poor year he put up; well, maybe but not so much; it is actually do to a change in perception as to who he is on this team; I always believed he was a key leader and had the right attitude; however, I saw him smiling too many times on the field during the Mets swoon, not step up with the media, and I think he is emblematic of the team I described in the opening; you have to wonder why he had put up such numbers but never been on a winner; anyway, I doubt there will be any takers and I do believe he can put up better stats next year if he doesn’t swing at everything thrown at his crotch but be critical of who he really is
Bullpen: you’ve got a mess here obviously; and it isn’t going to be easy to dig out of save for miraculous recoveries of Sanchez and Padilla; no matter how much you have to eat salary Mr. Mota needs to be sent to the LI Ducks; Feliciano, even with his end of year stumbles, still is valuable and I think Heilman is in a reduced role; who Joe Smith is is anyone’s guess; I think we’re stuck with Schoe so him being the 5-6th inning guy and a LOOGY is serviceable; and other than focusing on a shut down 8th inning guy this team has a major problem I’m just not sure what to do about: Wagner is soft and crumbles under pressure; yes, he’ll strike out the side after walking two in June against the Pirates but there are too many big game stumbles; there’s a reason he was never on a winner before he came to the Mets; I’m not sure you can get rid of him but realize this as you live with him over the next two years
Jose Reyes: that leaves Mr. Reyes; the honeymoon is over; I hope he doesn’t think the boos are because of his slump down the stretch; the team actually scored decently while he was hitting fungos to the outfield; I hope he recognizes it was because of his unfocused, sloppy play in all facets of the game; what happened my friend? I don’t think the fans have abandoned you but lose the fancy handshakes and remember the fundamentals
There is work to do. I don’t think the fans will warmly welcome back this same mix. I’m not suggesting change for change’s sake (we’ve already lived through multiple GMs who did that) and, in general, I think Omar has done a decent job. However, I think one needs to look beyond the five tools and stats for the grit and success under pressure this team is missing.
There was a lot of talk toward the end about teams disliking the Mets more then I can remember at any time since the mid-80s. I tried to understand the opposing view as to why. I realized that if my team were playing this one the handshakes and other antics would wear on me. “Oh, they’re just having fun and its good to see they love to play” is what we often hear. The 86 team pissed people off with their curtain calls and high fives but that was all in the passion of battle to win and for intimidation. While it might make them more marketable I don’t think fancy handshakes are the results of the same intensity.
Oh, and I forgot Mr. Randolf. Unlike some fans, I’m not ready to heap all of this on him. Yes, there are many gaffes and strange moves we can all question. However, I actually agree that your consistent, steady approach does serve you and your team well through the season. Yet, I’m still stuck wondering why you didn’t step up, step out, and take more of this on your shoulders down the stretch. The heat was on and you didn’t budge. That left your 24 year old third basemen relatively alone in taking this on. I can’t say that was well managed.
lets go willie!
ghobot, the 2007 WON’T win the World Series. Just had to bring you back to reality.
Great post buckybanjo.
If the Mets keep Willie, what happens if they get off to a poor start? What happens if there’s a June swoon, or even worse another bad September? The memories of this debacle will linger — not just with fans but also with our players and opposing teams, which only increases the pressure.
Willie managed the Mets as if they were the late-90’s Yankees, with a mix of gritty veterans and mature young stars, a great bullpen (remember Rivera started out as the 8th inning guy and Wetteland as the closer) and good starters.
That was never the Mets. And unlike his mentor Joe Torre, Wille wasn’t willing to go with younger players, the way Torre has turned over the Yankees roster (Canoe, Cabrera, Joba, etc.)
That said, our young guys might not compare — Jose is no Jeter, and while I’ve stuck up for Lastings, when he says he doesn’t care if his antics upset the other team, what he is saying is that he doesn’t care if his antics hurt his own team.
And is he a bad influence on Reyes?
Now that the season is over, it is also time to look at Omar’s record. Yes, we should remember where we came from — there has been a lot of progress. But the trade of Bannister was a disaster — with Banister in the rotation we probably win the NL east.
Not picking up a pitcher down the stretch was also a terrible mistake. Joel Pineiro was available for nothing, and he pitched some good games for the Cards, including beating us. David Wells might have also helped us — yes he’s another ancient guy, but wouldn’t you rather have him than Brian Lawrence, the human white flag?
As for the bullpen, if you’re old enough you recall Mike Roark and Whitey Herzog of the mid-80’s Cards putting together an effective bullpen out of guys off the scrap heap, including funky lefties just to pitch to one or two batters — Darryl and Keith. It can be done but Omar and our coaches didn’t even try. We just kept trotting out the same guys who had failed the night before.
Bottom line is if Willie isn’t fired now, he and the team will be under enormous pressure next year, and he might not survive a bad series against the Phillies or the Braves. And if Omar doesn’t fix the pitching, he won’t last much longer than Willie.
I’m not saying Willie should be fired, but he should be on a very short leash. Matt, you have often harped on how much the Mets improved in Willie’s first year, but that is a disingenuous, at best. I think Art Howe would have killed to have Wright and Reyes for a full year, and would have loved to be able to pencil Carlos Beltran into the line-up every day, and hand the ball to Pedro every 5th day. instead he had Kaz Matsui as his starting SS, and Ty Wiggington as his best every day player.
I’m not pining for the days of Art Howe, but trying to bring some perspective to the situation. The Mets were in the hunt for the WC that year until a 3-15 stretch essentially ended their hopes. And that was largely due to Willie’s insistance on continuing to trudge Braden Looper out there long after he had proven he could not get anyone out. Last September, they hit a tstretch of 3-10 in September, and then this year’s debacle. Over his 3-year reign, Willie’s September record is a mediocre 43-46.
My other argument against Willie is that once a manager loses a team, it is hard to get it back. There have been too many comments and inferences from players about Willie’s lack of fire, and refusal to back up his players on the field to think that it is isolated to a few players. His refusal to engage the umpire after the Hanley Ramirez debacle yesterday is inexcusable. He also should have gone out to argue Jacobs’ drop in th 6th inning yesterday. The ump made the proper call, but Willie could have lit a fire under the team. it certainly couldn’t have hurt.
If my team at work did as bad a job as the Mets have done over the past 3 weeks, I would be fired regardless of who was actually at fault. The job of a leader is to make his team better and, as Willie says, to accept fault when his team fails.
Maybe it’s not such of a good thing that his players are all so gung-ho-Willie. Some of the best coaches/teachers/bosses I have ever had have not been my favorite people. They have been on my *** constantly, trying to get me to do better than I think I can, inspiring me to exceed my expectations.
I don’t buy the fact that the Mets are a veteran team that don’t need leadership and have no room for improvement. The minute that we accept that we have no room for improvement is the moment we resign ourselves to failure. In my mind, that is the biggest fault of this Mets team. The manager should inspire the team to beleive that together, as 25 men, they are better than 25 individuals. This Mets team, playoffs or no playoffs, collapse or (in a much better parallel universe) no collapse, has for this entire season been 25 individuals. Sure, they were 25 good individuals, and sure they had holes. But they were not a team. When the bullpen failed, the offense was not there to pick them up. When the offense failed, the bullpen couldn’t hold a small lead. Truthfully, they could have learned a lot from the Phillies on how to be a TEAM.
I’m not saying that Willie MUST be fired (although I believe he should be). However, if he is going to stay he needs to seriously reconsider his position on this team. If he does not see himself as someone who can make this team better, why is he here? These guys have played plenty of baseball between them. Is there anything that the Mets did this year that they couldn’t have done without Willie?
If Willie stays, half the roster needs to go:
1. Glavine, good-bye Tommy. See you in ATL next year
2. LoDuca, love him, but Willie and Paulie cannot co-exist and his production is not worth keeping
3. Heilman, trade him and his miserable ways. Maybe he can be a starter for the Royals
4. Mota, eat the money and get him and his cheating, bad karma off this team.
5. Delgado, steady decline is not worth keeping. He is a huge hole in that lineup, and now we have a broken wrist injury to worry about
6. Shawn Green, this one hurts, but I just can’t justify keeping him (unless they make him the everyday first-baseman see #5)
7. Milledge, his stock is higher than at the start of the season, you should be able to get something decent for him
8. Conine, will retire
9. Sele, is he still on this team?
10. Newhan, waste of a roster spot
on the fence,
11. Sosa
12. Schoeneweis, salvaged something in the end
13. Castillo
14. Pelfrey, if you can get something good for him as a package with Heilman and Milledge, cut your ties
15. Humber, see #14
16. Alou, I think you need his bat
17. Wagner, he’s a bad fit here, but there is no one better to close.
NYCuban…
Heilman was one of our best pitchers down the stretch, aside from that Florida game, of course.
Agree with most of the rest of your assessments though.
Yes, but in the big spot he implodes…AND he is a malcontent. And I’m cleaning house of ALL negativity. Hence, Willie should go also…
I would have fired Willie before he left Shea yesterday, so we are on the same page.
Omar is on M&MD, I’m still dreaming that he will give them the exclusive. I know it won’t happen, but I can dream. And sad to say, Willie will be here in 2008.
Willie is going to stay. That being said, he will be on everyone’s “Top 10 Managers on the Hot Seat” List in 2008. If the team languishes around .500 for the first 2 months, he could be gone by late June…
However, I really don’t think that will happen. This team, with a few additions, will come out like they did in 2006– with something to prove. This team, it will be the Phillies that will be fat on success (yes, Jimmy, you will be the team to beat– try and repeat the feat– it won’t be easy, now will it…)
I think you will see a new catching tandem (either Pudge and Castro, or Castro and a younger backup), some new pitching arms (Omar will make a run at Santana, but may go for something none of us see right now) and a vastly different bullpen setup (One key might be Duaner…)
Next year’s team will have a definitive chip on it’s shoulder, and part of that will be Willie’s chip– I think this is one reason you keep him, and I don’t think you want to be in this team’s way next year….
Thats what it should have been like in September and it wasn’t that way. they backed off like a bunch of schoolgirls instead of going out and proving a point. They played not to lose rather than to win. That mind-frame has to come from somewhere, which is why Willie must go.
They should have come out with a chip on their shoulders this year, but they didn’t. Lack of motivation is what it comes down to. Willie OUT.
SMC, I completely agree. these same players wouldn’t be the same next year. every season is fresh and different, there is reason to think that they come out pissed off at the marlins, the nationals and the phillies next season. but we need some talent. not new management, not new coaches, but somebody who can throw seven or eight innings of top flight baseball every fifth day. bye bye glavine. bye bye el duque.
What exactly did Heilman do wrong? He didn’t have a great year, but he had the best year out of anyone in the pen (who is not a closer). He has been a big part of this team for the last few years, and has not complained about his role recently – which shows he either matured, or doesn’t want to cause trouble. Either way, he has accepted his role and preformed reasonabley well to great. He posted a 3.05 ERA for this entire Season.
Mets fans have an unreasonable urge to hate Heilman… it is silly.
Heilman did nothing wrong. He posted a 2.26 ERA in the second half (only 11 ER since the break) and just over 3.00 overall. Not only was he our best reliever in the second half he is the ONLY guy in our pen who was better in the second half than the first. Unlike every other reliever on the team, he didn’t crumble (with the exception of one game in FL) down the stretch.
We’re still blaming him because of one bad changeup to Molina last October. It’s time to move on.
don’t worry, if we made the world series this year, heilman would’ve figured out a way to blow a game. he’s just not clutch.
holy god, what does it take to be ‘clutch’? 100% success rate? Mariano circa 1999-2000? Gimme a break, Aaron was one of the few guys who did his job this year.
You’re absolutely right, jamie, the hate for Heilman on this site is mindboggling. Somehow he’s a malcontent for giving his preference to start. I guess the same would apply to anyone who applies for a promotion at their job, you’re just not satisfied with your job!
the bottom line is, i think that either way, it’s lose-lose. Willie has earned a spot on this team as much as he’s lost it. You can’t throw guys under the bus, but you also have to accept personal responsibility.
That being said, I think Willie HAS TO GO ONLY because of HOW this team lost it. If we made the playoffs and lost, it stinks. If we didn’t perform well all year, raced with Philly and they beat us, it stinks. But to be in first since May, underachieve, then get everyone back from the DL, play EXCELLENT baseball to widen a lead, only to see it wither away and we MISS OCTOBER ON THE LAST DAY OF THE SEASON….the fans are going to show no mercy, it’s going to be a topsy turvy season from the word GO in 2008, too many skeptics, too many questions…a lil slump can blow up into “uh oh, here it goes again,” instead of building on confidence and excitement going into this season…the damage is just irreparable…
Hmmm .. so if Willie shouldn’t be fired Matt, what should the price be?
Should we the fans pay more for tickets?
How about we extend Delgado’s contract for bringing next to nothing to the table this year? That .250 avg is so much fun to watch!
Maybe another year of Guillermo Mota’s HILARIOUS hijinks, oh wait we are already on board for that.
Matt, if the players are “such great professionals” why even hire a manager? Why not just get someone who can make all the right moves which Willie has proven time and again (his insistance on using Mota, not pushing Delgado down in the order until Sept, his reluctance, no his FEAR to get into an umpire’s face, his lack of passion in the dugout) he is incapable of.
Look I’m a Ranger fan, and for years we had head coaches that would stoically stand on the bench, never get into a player’s face, never get up in arms about a bad call. This would rub off on the players and they would play in a laid back fashion without
any semblance of a killer instinct. This would lead to talented teams, on paper at least, playing underwhelming hockey day after day and when there backs were against the wall they would start saying all the right things but there would be a startling lack of results. Sound familiar??
Willie is here for ONE reason, to get the most out of each player he can. He failed, miserably, in that job. For that alone he deserves to be let go. This isn’t the Pirates or Reds or Royals where we can keep a “nice guy” because it hurts too much to fire him. Grady Little pulled one of the biggest boners in the history of the postseason. He was quickly dispatched and the Sox went on to win a World Series the following year.
I’m sick of the press chiming in. Of course they won’t bad mouth Mets’ management, that hurts their level of access to the club, which makes their job harder to do, which holds back their careers, which hurts their wallet. But not us, the fans, we know and understand what goes on. We see this garbage everyday, and no one asks us or cares what we think. The only thing a fan is good for is being a constant and reliable stream of money coming into the organization.
How frustrated was eveyone sitting out there getting bent over by the “spy” himself before 5 minutes had even passed Sunday afternoon? Wasn’t it great to see Willie manage like it was the last day of the year? It was so obvious Glavine had nothing yesterday, why did it take NINE batters and only one out to realize that? Why did the game have to be put so far out of reach before any reaction came from the “leader” of this ballclub? Because Glavine is a veteran? We can;t have his feelings hurt? Big Deal? how about the 55,000 suckers that were sitting in the stands bearing witness to that debacle? Does anyone care about us??? Certainly Willie doesn’t and that’s why he needs to go. the man only cares about proving that he’s right. He could care less if this team wins. That’s why it’s always about “My Guys” and “My Gut” and “I know my Players” and “The Champagne tasting that much sweeter”
FIRE WILLIE!!!
FIRE WILLIE!!!
FIRE WILLIE!!!
FIRE WILLIE!!!
FIRE WILLIE!!!
willie has some culpability here, but not enough to get him fired. the main reason we failed was because of the performance of the pitching staff in september. yeah reyes sucked but we scored plenty without him. how many times did you think to yourself, it doesn’t matter who willie puts in, they are going to give up runs? This team’s offensive output is fine, if you blow up this team, you risk losing the outrage that most of them are probably feeling right now. Lose Glavine, that’s fine, lose some of the guys in the bullpen, definitely. If you need to package some younger guys to get santana, of course you do that. LoDuca is a tough call, I like him but he’s not productive enough to talk as much as he does. I’d rather keep Castro and get someone younger as an understudy. Give Willie one more year to get the job done.
sorry mackey, but the performance of the pitching staff was the dirtect result of willies ineptitude with them all season long.
Mackey,
With regards to the whole “outrage” thing you mention: If this team wasn’t pissed after watching an AWFUL Cardinal team out play them in the NLCS, then mock them and their fans and then go and win the World Series, what will outrage them?
Willie couldn’t motivate a Jack Russell, he is one of the most boring human beings I have ever borne witness to.
Lastly, did anyone else notice how nervous Willie looked in the dugout during Friday’s and Saturday’s, I can’t comment on Sunday because I was fortunate enough to witness the Mets lay down and die first hand! I think at one point he was either talking to himself or praying not to lose!!
That’s the kind of confidence I look for in a manager!!!
Great post, BigHangWithEm! Right on!
I don’t think you can fire Willie…..the team, particularly the pitching, played at the end like we were worried they would back in September.
Look at the Mets’ rotation and bullpen and tell me this was a team that should have made the playoffs. The entire season rested on 40+ Glavine and Hernandez leading the rotation, and a bunch of players stepping up in the bullpen. It happened for awhile, but should Willie be blamed for that?
If this team played in April like it did in September the blame would have gone to Minaya. Now, after Willie got more out of the team for the first three months than anyone thought he shouldn’ t blamed because he couldn’t keep it going.
Look, the truth is that with three weeks left, the Mets had a lead that should have been impossible to screw up. Thus, they SHOULD have made the playoffs.
Maybe looking at the roster, the team doesn’t seem like a team that should have made the playoffs. But for 5 months, they played like a team that was going to. Then they blew it.
You can’t tell me that the past three weeks happened solely becuase of the weakness of the Mets roster. Not unless you think they should have been a .300 team over the whole season. This collapse was mental as well as physical – and the only person who can be blamed for the failure of the entire team to play hard is Randolph. You are right – if the team had played bad all season we would have blamed Minaya, rightfully so. But they didn’t – the collapsed, and for that the blame has to go to Willie
I love the notion that you “Can’t” fire Willie Randolph. American ends in “I CAN”, and I assure you that firing Willie is absolutely somethuing that CAN and should be done.
If the only times Willie’s strengths are “seen” is when he is “behind closed doors”, you are in danger of accepting the Wizard of Oz as a manager.
Just a reminder, wonderful souvenier NLDS Home Game #2 tix on sale at E*Bay, Item #170154949319
Willie lost his guys by not supporting them ON the field. He needs to get thrown out in defense of them once in a while. He can praise them to the media or shield them from the bullets all he wants, but players want to see guys get defended ON the field. It gives everyone a boost and brings everyone together. If once in a while (the Marlon Anderson example comes to mind), Willie goes ballistic, then the team can rally behind Wille with a common enemy. They will be tight again. The 2006 team was a family. The 2007 team was a bunch of individuals…there is your problem.
its the same difference as major league and majore league 2, which means next year will be a straight to video major league 3: back to the minors….which would be willie being sent to the minors to learn how to manage after being fired from the big club.
Cerrone,
You can’t post a poll and then vote 300 times yourself to keep WIllie here….
LMAO!!! 90% of the comments are anti-Willie and the poll is like 70% for him to stay. While all the anti-Willie guys are typing, the pro-Willie guys must keep voting.
Or we don’t feel the need to post numerous counter arguments to things we know are silly…
I think that poll is broken…
Or maybe we all have jobs that we want to keep and dont have the time to type while sitting at home in our underwear….
Good one. Perhaps I am in the minority, at least for bloggers here on Randolph. I still think if he is manager, they’re going to really have a hard time with fans. You think they played tight at home this year, with generall supportive fans. Think about next year when they boo their manager on opening day and savage any/all mistakes. I’m not a “boo bird” kind of fan. I boo a player when I see a lack of effort, not lack of result. But Mets fans are becoming a much more impatient and aggressive breed over the past decade. 2007 will have made them that much grumpier.
Now, sure, Randolph could make all that go away with a huge opening homestand. But, if they struggle out of the gate, it will be insane. Losing Randolph buys you some “new blood” credibility. Given I think there are a lot of folks out there who could do just as good a job as Randolph, I don’t see a lot of sense in keeping him around and running the risk to turning the fans into the mob.
Agree 100%. I can’t imagine opening day next year with Willie in the dugout. Imagine he makes a ridiculous move and the pen blows it. Shea will go ballistic.
Haha, Nice Ball..I was wondering! Reading this site all day, everyone is anti-Willie, yet 70% want him to stay? That’s fishy…
Wow. Sour grapes there! Face it. The fans calling for his firing are in the clear minority on this issue. Isn’t even close. Most of us feel Willie deserves to stay.
Matt said on ESPNNews the other day that the site gets 40-50thousand hits a day, yet the poll closes with approx 3,000 votes. Hmmmmmmmmm
I always kind of supported Willie despite thinking he was a poor in-game manager because I thought he had a strong clubhouse presence. Now it seems he may not even have that. So what exactly is he good at? It’s time for him to go.
short and to the point. great post! my sentiments exactly.
First, I do believe its party his fault but I don’t believe he should be fired. The coaching staff needs to held accountable especially Rickey Henderson and Rick Peterson.
Second, personally, I’m sick and tired of Matthew Cerrone insulting Met fans, the very people who frequent his website. I respect him and enjoy this site but we deserve respect. Fans are passionate but in the end, we still pay Matt’s bill and the player’s salaries for that matter. We deserve a little more respect than we have been getting. I’ve have been a fan since ‘86 and have stuck with them since. Matt, stop complaining about about our heated comments and understand that we’re disappointed, heart broken, and some of us are depressed. It’s the site hits generated by us that put food on your table.
This is a fantastic website, and Matt can do as he pleases with his comments. (Personally, I feel they are on target.)
Bottom line – don’t visit this site if you don’t like it!
I hear ya on the depressed front, but I certainly didn’t get the sense of being insulted from Matt on this. I thought he expressed a very interesting discrepency between the fans and the management. The two sides, to me, are coming at this from very different perspectives, and the management, to my mind, doesn’t realize the depth of many fans heartbreak over what has happened, and the fact that passionate fans of baseball keeep history with them at all times, because baseball is about history. Both the team’s history, and your history as it regards the team.
I see where you are coming from, but I don’t think Matt was trying to say “stupid fans, don’t you see that the smart baseball people say Willie should stay?” He’s noting the disconnect, and saying that when it comes down to it, he thinks Randolph should stay.
I totally disagree with him for reasons I noted earlier, but accusing him of disrespecting we fans is, I think misplaced.
My opinion is not strictly based on this post but his posts in general. He really got on the fans about “quiting” on the team by not going to the park and cheering our hearts out during the final stretch. This whole experience is tough on fans and he shouldn’t get on us as often as he does.
“I’m sick and tired of Matthew Cerrone insulting Met fans”
Really? Well, I’m sick and tired of Met fans insulting Matt Cerrone! Why is it you feel you can rip him but he can’t respond to posts any way he see fit?
You don’t pay anything to use this site, so you’re not entitled to anything. If you don’t like it, vote with your mouse and click somewhere else. You won’t be missed.
Maybe Matt has your same point of view and doesn’t appreciate the visitors of this site. You’re right, I won’t be missed but I will miss this site. In my opinion it’s the best source for mets fans. But if I feel he continuously gets down on us, he’ll have few less hits and I’ll move on. No biggie for Matt.
Well I’m sick of fans who kiss a picture of matt cerrone every night before they go to bed.
Are you alright?
no im not. i cant understand why people worship matt cerrone. i love his site, he does a great job. i even enjoy his opinion most of the time, but some people abide by his opinion like its the bible.
for example, when someone says ‘cerrone needs to stop drinking the kool-aid’, a bunch of fans here, perhaps you included, are extremely offended. its ridiculous.
I am not involved in this argument, but HeBeGB, are you Matt’s wife? You got a little too defensive there for someone you “don’t even kow”.
Listen, I love this site, and think Matt does great work, but he does get defensive with people who disagree with him, especially about Willie. He loves Willie.
No_Brain_Willie– My “Are you alright” was meant for HeBeGB, not you. I’m on board with your opinion. We’re allowed to diagree with each other, it’s life. Matt gets fired up sometimes, though.
Would I fire Willie? It’s a hard question without having a replacement in-hand. It would be too easy to get stuck with another Art Howe. Forget Carter/Backman/Oberkfell – I don’t think you can bring in a minor-league manager to run this team. Who’s out there that would command the respect of the clubhouse, work with the insane NY press, and not eclipse Omar’s ego?
I think the question a lot of fans are really answering when you ask about firing him is ‘do you like Willie?’. I don’t think many fans do like him. He makes poor in-game decisions. He never really answers questions. He insists on managing by his ‘gut’ rather than his brain. Or maybe he just throws his gut under the bus to cover for his brain. He’s probably better in the clubhouse than we give him credit for, but who knows?
The feeling I get is he cares about what his team thinks about him and couldn’t care less about what fans (or the press) thinks. That may or may not be admirable, but it’s not very smart.
To cut to the chase, I think we’re stuck with Willie’s oddities for another year. I also think that Mets management has to take him off the leash to find out what they have. Give him complete control over his coaching staff and, if he doesn’t have it already, all roster and line-up decisions. Then, he sinks or swims.
ditto
You can’t have a minor league manager run the Mets, but you can have a manager who has never managed at any level? Mmmm, OK.
If you’re referring to Willie, he’s managed a major league team for the past three years. I’m afraid we can’t go back in time and un-hire him.
Ummm – isn’t that waht firing him will do = un-hire him?
:-P
I think the disconnect is because a lot of the qualities that make Willie great are things that you only see behind closed doors, while the missteps he makes are always in the public eye (i.e. bullpen management, “lack of fire”).
If he is so great with teh clubhouse motivation behind closed doors, please explain to me the quotes from his team that admitted they were so good they got bored and were complacent and expected to get in the playoffs? If he was so great in the clubhouse, keep the team focused department – how can a team that was embarrassed in last year’s NLCS come into this season and be apathetic?
Everyone agrees a change is needed, my question is how drastic? First off there are so many variables to consider, but to make it simple and only focusing on personel the way it stands you can make three types of changes: player, manager or GM.
Trading any of their core players (e.g. Reyes) is ridiculous to me. The Mets would lose their entire identity if these types of players are moved. Clearly changes will be made with the veterans (e.g. Delgado?) and guys off of contract (e.g. Glavine, LoDuca, Green, Castillo?) but the core has to remain. At the end of the day our pitching did not come through and this is our most pressing player issue.
The main issue with Willie is whether he has “lost” his players, if he can motivate them, and his in game strategy. I think all these are suspect. What happened in 2006 that was missing in 2007?
Omar assembled the players, the same players who let him down. A lot of decisions in 2007 backfired that didnt in 2006.
Regardless of who is to blame, a major change needs to happen in one of these three aspects, otherwise I fear we will be stuck in a rut. A change will allow the organization and fans to kind of clean the slate and forget about 2007 and hope for better things in 2008.
WE WILL NEVER WIN ANYHIING WITH WILLIE!!!!
They overachieved in 2005. They had a good season dominating a weak league in 2006. He choked in that 9th inning of Game 7. This year they completed the biggest collapse in baseball history. He didn’t know what to do as it all came down. He’s worthless.
Be careful, people will crucify you for making that statement. I’ve tried it before. =)
waa waaa “i’m a victim”
enough…that act is getting old
I don’t understand the guys that say give Willie a short leash. 1. it doesn’t get shorter than not being able to pick your own coaches. 2. If you bring him back and he chokes, then what do you do? Who is available mid-year? You promote somebody within to handle a veteran clubhouse that will probably have no managerial experience? That means 2008 is probably lost, too. And this is with the shadows of a new stadium in CF and 2009 in the horizon. I think its too risky. Either you fire him now and hire a replacement and let him get on board early with the roster moves for the off-season or you back Willie 100% and re-evaluate where you stand in at this time next year.
As long as Willie has not lost the majority of his clubhouse, I think he should keep his job. The endorsement from Wright probably helps him stay as Wright is emerging as the leader of this team on and off the field. If Willie has lost just a few players like LoDuca, Wagner then that’s part of being a manager. No manager has the support of all 25 guys. Get rid of the problem players and bring in those more suited to the managers style.
If Willie has truly lost the majority of his clubhouse, then he has to go. I am sure the Wilpons and Omar will analyze this as they look at the team for 2008.
Carlos Delgado, who in early September told reporters, “We’ve got so much talent, I think sometimes we get bored.
Bored today Carlos?
No, he is back in PR with his new son, which is where he wanted to be all year.
Delgado is the player that absolutely, no question, needs to be moved. I disagree with the sentiment that the Mets would not be able to trade him. Assuming the Mets are willing to eat a portion (maybe 1/3 of what he is due) I can see a AL team taking a chance at one more good year from him.
As far as who will replace him, I have no idea but I am guessing they can find someone that can hit for the same average. They can bolster up another position for the lack of power.
Something just keeps telling me he was the problem, not sure why – it must be my gut (or him grounding out to second all the time).
sorry, but i totally disagree with you about the whole “insiders” and fans disconnect. all these insiders have their own agenda’s, and i guarantee you its not the mets success they have in mind. for all the “journalists” who say willie should stay, its in their benefit if he does. he is a known quantity, someone who cant win, someone who makes great headlines for his failures, someone who keeps the mets off the back pages, except for the times he screws up big.
i saw steve phillips on espn last night praising willie and saying he should stay, all with a twinkle in his eyes.
mike and the mad dog love willie, not because he wins, but because he is good for ratings.
i’m rather surprised at this point the poll shows dont fire willie. i expect that to change over the course of the day.
the man has had 3 years to prove himself, and he has failed. you can blame the players, you can blame omar and his interfereing ways, but when it comes down to it, it is willie that has to stand up and lead his team. he has not done this. there is a reason so many teams declined making willie their manager. and its not racism like willie claims.
he had his chances. he blew it. time to move on. managers have been fired for less.
you can say willie has a winning percentage with the mets. i will say the mets would have had a winning percentage with anybody managing. probably better, with atleast 1 title by now. too many games have fallen because of willies ineptitude, too many wins have been won in spite of his misdeeds.
its time to bring in someone from within the organization the fans and players can rally behind. hojo, tuefel, and wally have all won as players and as minor league managers in the mets organization. they have the fans behind them, the players respect, and the fire this team needs to become the champions they are capable of.
I feel sorry for the kids, the 11-16 year olds. A lot of fans give a lot to this team, and I don’t just mean money. The fans give a lot of emotion during the long season but I think many of the players don’t care. They wouldn’t even come out of the club house to say good bye to the kids that were hanging around (crying) the dugout.
It’s hard for me to feel sorry for the players. They’re starting their vacations, returning to the golf club and fishing boat. Just like last year.
wait the pooch said lowry for beltran and cain for wagner, but id do that
Off topic. Listing to WFAN today, M & M made a comment linking Castillo to Reyes’ mid-season downward spiral, implying some kind of negative influence on the part of the former. Does anyone know anything more about this?
No, but I was intrigued by the same thing. Anyone have anything on it?
Last year a number of players had great years. This year, a number of players looked old. Maybe we’re seeing skills diminish right in front of our eyes. I love el Duque, but this is the second year in a row that he went MIA when we needed him most. Delgado and LoDuca both struck out way more than usual, especially LoDuca, who has always been Mr. Contact Hitter. I breathed a sigh of relieft this year every time he *didn’t* ground into a DP.
Sure, Willie is getting bashed, but what about Rick Peterson? Isn’t he the one responsible for this pitching staff that blew this lead? It was the offense that coughed it up. You score 7 runs, you should win the game. We’ve always viewed Peterson as some sort of magician, but maybe the magic is wearing off.
Last year a number of players had great years. This year, a number of players looked old. Maybe we’re seeing skills diminish right in front of our eyes. I love el Duque, but this is the second year in a row that he went MIA when we needed him most. Delgado and LoDuca both struck out way more than usual, especially LoDuca, who has always been Mr. Contact Hitter. I breathed a sigh of relieft this year every time he *didn’t* ground into a DP.
Sure, Willie is getting bashed, but what about Rick Peterson? Isn’t he the one responsible for this pitching staff that blew this lead? It was the offense that coughed it up. You score 7 runs, you should win the game. We’ve always viewed Peterson as some sort of magician, but maybe the magic is wearing off.
****************************************
It “wasn’t” the offense…..not “was”.
Wooooooooooooo lol. told you guys it was our division. Minaya washing cars like beaners should while the white man gillick goes for a pennant. Holla at a choke job 2nd rate NY team haha.
From the city that booed Santa, and cheered a man who lay motionless on the turf, I’d expect no less…
2nd class city with 2nd class fans. Why, do you suppose, you guys are a bunch of LOSERS?! Enjoy your 1st round exit you fat pig
METS STARTING LINEUP 9/30/07
Reyes
Castillo
Wright
Beltran
Alou
Delgado
Castro
Milledge
Glavine
METS STARTING LINEUP 2006 NLCS GAME 1
Reyes
Lo Duca
Beltran
Delgado
Wright
Floyd
Green
Valentin
Glavine
The 2006 team was full of heart. 2007 team was “bored.” But what changed? They are almost entirely the same. Sub Castillo for Valentin, I think that’s a positive clubhouse change. Cliffy was a totally special guy, but Alou is too, in his old school ways. Green and LoDuca still around.
It’s clear that somewhere along the way something happened that we don’t know about. Aside from a few comments here and there slipping out of LoDuca’s mouth, the Mets are kept under wraps from the media well (I think that’s a good thing).
No matter how successful and professional Willie is, and I think he does a generally good job, if he lost players so much that largely the same guys become totally different guys, it has to fall on him.
“it’s clear that somewhere along the way something happened that we don’t know about”. This should be the topic of an entire thread. As far as I’m concerned there are 2 fundamental things to be resolved before April. The first is the pitching staff in general and particularly the bullpen. This is primarily Omar’s problem. The second thing is to fix this Reyes problem right here and now. I haven’t heard anybody give any authoritative account on what his problem was/is. This is one tightly guarded state secret. Was he just tired or burned out? Problems with his teammates? Willie? Is he getting too rich or arrogant? Family problems? Substances (heaven forbid)? The importance of a healthy Reyes cannot be overemphasized and somebody in command needs to solve this.
I’ve been a willie advocate throughout the collapse. I have to admit, I really thought they were going to get over the hump and at leats get into the playoffs. But here we are with this hollow feeling and such immense frustration, embarassment and sadness.
Seeing the reyes collapse was unreal. when wright was hearing some scattered boos in April it made me think “they will never do this to reyes. he hustles too much. plays the game hard. brings energy and enthusiasm that his teammates, and other teams hate but wish they had. he was booed like mota yesterday. what happened? ya know what happened? willie lost him and he lost the team. if he’s all about winning (which we know he is) then even if this team loses they shouldve showed some fight and they didnt. a team this good has to play absolutely awful to implode like this. think about that sentence again. they didnt get beat by the worst teams in the nl east. they got killed. These same teams played the phillies late in september and got smacked.
we had more talent than the phillies, we had the same sked. so what happened? we rolled over and made history. and willie lost the team.
will that change next year. i dont think so. thats why now I think he should go.
I think Willie should go, mostly because he jsut isn’t that good at is job, and his teams have not played up to their potential, and he seems to have lsot control of the situation.
Also, please stop with the “winner” kick. It is wonderful if he has been on winning teams, and considers himself personally to be a “winner”, but that has nothing to do with being a major league manager.
In fact, sometimes the best players make the worst managers or coachs. Quite possible that Michael jordan would stink as a head coach in the NBA, but he for sure was a winner!
And since Willie never managed before, he can’t claim to be a winner at that. Coaching 3rd base for the Yankees of the 2nd golden era to win rings doesn’t really give him much cred.
But, if he does come back, the team might be better off for the loss this year. Any pretext that they are good, or sense of entitlement, has been eliminated.
So maybe them come out focused and hungry, and don’t get “bored”
Finally, who are these players that got bored and coasted? Name names, and either put them on notice (if they have value), or get rid of them (even if they have to write off salary).
Willie has 3 years now, with 3 teams that collapsed at the end when it mattered.
The guy above that said Art Howe could have won with the 2005 team was spot on. He might have been boring as anything, but give him the best talent, and he pretty much got it to do what it was capable of (see the A’s)
If you keep Willie in 2008, you will spend the entire season looking over your shoulder
fact of the matter is this team isnt that talented, no matter what delgado says. delgado got hurt every time he got hot. green is a shell of his former self. 2nd base was in flux most of the year. alou, while still a great hitter, isnt reliable for a season. loduca simply played too much for an older catcher, and castro simply is not an everyday type. glavine was and is old. maine and perez are young but gained a lot of experience, but they wore down over a full season. el duque can still pitch, but is gettin too old for a full season too. the bullpen was overworked and broke down. the pitchin just plaine crapped out near the end do to age, both too old and too young. i cant see how too much of this is willies fault. and lets not forget the majority of the negative posters were the same ones who didnt want to make a deal for an inning eater and were comfortable goin into the season with glavine, duque, perez, maine and pelfrey. and odds are theyll be the same ones who clamor for collazo, smith and humber to make it next year, and then blame willie when they lose it near the end too. the team simply needs some younger pitching that can give some innings, just as many said goin into this year.
You almost CANT fire willie.
I’m one of those people that is not a big fan of Willie Randolph as a manager. I don’t think he’s any good and in my honest opinion he never should have been hired in the first place.
BUT with that said you just cannot fire willie. Its not very fair to him as he has technically “won” since he’s become manager.
He has 2 more years left on his contract and even though I don’t like him, if I were Omar, if I was GM and in charge of the team, I would just give him the benefit of the doubt.
I would love to Fire Willie but you can’t.
We’ll see how he does in 2008 and go from there, its only fair.
if it was about being fair, the pistons never would have fired rick carlisle after winning 50 games for larry brown. well they did, improved, and won a title. if everyone is admitting that willie isnt very good, why not try to improve?
Well, Matt, I think you’ve found your answer about the disconnect. It’s pretty clear from your poll that the multitude of posters here in recent days calling for Willie’s firing don’t represent the majority of Mets fans.
The internet gives voice to an often angry and vocal minority.
Meanwhile, there is a more or less silent majority here too.
Great VCarver, so there are more people out there that have the same opinion as you. Thankfully, simply being in the majority doesn’t make your stance the correct stance.
How about some concrete reasons to keep Willie?
Here are some reasons not to keep him.
Under the stewardship of Willie Randolph the Mets have managed to …
Lose in the NLCS to one of the worst postseason teams in the history of MLB.
Play with the attitude of spoiled and entitled children all season, from Delgado being “bored” to Jose and LMillz not running out balls to Endy Chavez and Reyes getting thrown out attempting to steal 3B in key situations.
Have a greater # of players ejected from games than times the manager has been ejected.
Please feel free to respond.
No, being in the majority doesn’t make my stance right. I never said it did. And I would never say that since my opinion on Metsblog is often in the minority. There is no right or wrong here. Just a continuum of opinions.
And here’s my opinion. The manager has little to do with the winning and losing on the field, affecting maybe 5-15 games a year at most either way. The biggest factor in winning and losing is the talent and personalities (makeup) on the team. That’s up to the GM. So you can blame Willie for Game 7 if you want even though the failure of Valentin, Mota, Heilman, and others were more critical.. And it’s just dumb to say he lost to one of the worst postseason teams ever. Plain dumb. This is the same team that handily beat Leyland, a manager many of you Willie bashers worship. The Cardinals were a better “team” than the Mets last year, just like the Phillies are a better “team” than the Mets this year, if only by 1 game.
There are far greater reasons the Mets lost this year than players getting thrown out at third (happens to all teams) or not running out balls (happens to all players including Jeter) so for some of you to harp on those things shows you’re grasping for reasons to skewer Willie. Try the complete black hole that was the back end of the bullpen, and the age and inexperience in the rotation that made the starters incapable of getting past the 6th inning. These things by far were bigger reasons for this year’s collapse.
VCarver, thanks for a (mostly) civil reply! It’s refreshing to have a real conversation on a message board! And yeah, we are all entitled to our diff opinions, there is obviously alot of emotion going around right now again thanks for taking the high road!
I think the manager has alot more to do with the team than effecting 5-15 games. and btw how big are 5-15 games right now?? the manager sets the mood of the team, he instills them with the sense of urgency. He has to keep the players on their toes instead of just tossing out mundane quotes all year. I think the manager has to be a little more dynamic. Look what Leyland did last year, one tirade to the press and the tigers started believeing in themselves and took off. Pinella rode his team hard the first 2 months and turned that team around right away. Now I am not saying Willie has to fire and brimstone, but get out of the dugout once in awhile. Get tossed, don’t be scared of the umpires. Point is the team became complacent just like their manager.
As far as all players get thrown out at third, I understand that. But there have to be times that the manager has to put up the Red Light and make sure that the player does not run under any circumstances. The 9/15 game against Philly where Jose got thrown out in the middle of a rally that could have put the game away sticks out. And so does a late game against the Nats (Endy didn’t get thrown out at 3rd, but he shouldn’t have been running in that 2 strike situation)
My problem with Willie is two fold.
All year the Mets made boneheaded plays. That has to be due to a lack of preparation which is really the Manager’s biggest job in an organization, make sure the players are prepared to give you their best.
The second issue is that the Mets played listlessly all year. Basically they inherited their manager’s laid back persona. The fact Willie got ejected from far less games than his players is a telling stat.
As far as last year, the Mets got outplayed by the Cards, I guess that can’t be placed on the manager but the Tigers pitchers handling the ball like a greased pig did them in.
Back to this year, yes the BP and rotation were huge culprits, but c’mon, this division was there for the taking. Maybe not stubbornly using Mota every time they were behind so he could put the game out of reach would have made a difference. Maybe not keeping the black hole formerly known as Carlos Delgado in the 4 hole for the first half would have fixed things too.
Last year was a dissapointment, 2007 was an affront to Met fans. For that reason alone Willie should be fired. Obviously it’s not all his fault, but a fresh start is necessary, for the players and most of all for the fans. And the short leash argument is just silly, either fire him or don’t fire him until after the team screws it up again in 2008.
Hard to shake the appearence that Willie lost control. Even perception is enough to get you fired. Right now, I’d fire the whole damn team, front office, ball boys, concession people. Next week, I may have my sanity back.
can someone please explain to me all this hype for milledge i’m seeing here? is everybody trying to boost this guy up so he can be a decent trade prospect again? this guy is a loser. he was once the darling of the mets minor leagues, he was once the #1 trade prospect in the majors, until omar brought him up last year, and everyone saw what a jackass he was. now nobody wants him. this guy is bad news, and a bad influence in the clubhouse, especially with reyes.
Milledge is the second coming of Milton Bradley…he is trouble, and he’ll be trouble on and off the field for years to come. He has a WORLD of talent, but is alarmingly immature and volatile. I’d deal him ASAP, if a deal came along.
FALSE…
Kid has some “antics” but so do a LOT of people in this game, yet he gets piled on b/c it is the in thing to do for some reason.
Stop sticking up for Lastings, HOMER. He is a chump.
Sticking up for him? I just think it is absurd that he shows some spunk and he gets crushed for it, yet Reyes does the same stuff and nobody says a word. Oh, and for the Yankees, Chamberlain is dancing on the mound after a K, but that is “cute” and “good energy” because he is young. Such crap….
I would agree, except this reputation has been with Milledge since we drafted him….he had “character” issues from day one. He insited a riot in the minors last year sliding into 2nd base spikes up….went berzerk on an umpire 2 weeks ago, and came back out of the dugout twice afetr ejected! Sure, I appreciate his energy, but he takes to another level. Trade him.
For what?
2 things, 1 i agree we should trade milledge for something as i think his value is back up to a level that can get us something in return. However, in regards to reyes and milledge and alot of the bashing and calling these guys immature and making fun of their antics; did anyone ever think maybe theyre rebelling against their manager who has an obvious bias against young players, a manager that treats his young players differently than his vets for no reason whatsoever. I personally think willie did lose the young guys (other than wright bc i think wright will play his butt off no matter who the manager is) bc of how he has treated them and i think he lost the vets bc they just couldnt take him seriously as they were probably wise to him basically not really being in charge. So for these reasons i think it would be hard to bring willie back and expect anything better than another let down season.
For what?
For the biscuit.
Ruined you.
HOMER
One of the things that Willie did that first started to make me raise his eyebrows was when Milledge got ROASTED for doing — what? Giving a few high fives to fans because he was excited about hitting a huge homerun? Willie not only did nothing to defend or shield Milledge, he piled on with some criticism of his own. Much of Milledge’s public persona stem from this absolute nonevent. Some of the entries on this site have described Milledge as being a punk, thug etc. All I know is, if I had been Milledge and I had been pilloried for the crime of being enthusiastic I would have been absolutely pi**ed off. (and consider myself neither a punk nor a thug)
[...] Opinion: To Willie, or Not to Willie [...]
so is anyone else becoming very angry that the inferior central division will have yet another team with a worse record than us go farther than us? is there anything that could be done to prevent this kind of crap, it didnt happen in the AL, its really frustrating to deal with for a 2nd straight year. its kind of unfair when a team from a better division with a better record cant go beyond the regular season while the cubs are the by default winners of a terrible division and get to play in october.
Yeah, go back to two divisions and have the next two best teams be the WC. But that will never fly b/c then the awful teams from the central divisions will never qualify for the postseason.
That’s life, man….Kind of like how the Detroit Tigers must feel this year looking at the entire National League.
yea but i mean thats different leagues, the tigers record is only relevant when compared to other AL teams, since the indians and tigers play the same exact teams the indians are better and that is a statistical fact. the tigers didnt have a better record than any other AL team in the playoffs, thats what i mean, the AL had the 4 best records make the playoffs and for the 3rd straight yr in the NL the 4 best records DIDNT make the playoffs.
Interesting points, never quite thought about that before. I know there has been talk of adding an additional wild card team….meaning, the two wild card teams would play a one game playoff (exactly as Colorado and SD are doing tonight) to get the 4th spot. But that doesn’t solve that issue, guess it’s just the luck of the draw.
in the end theres no way to fix it unless you just did 4 best records but that would be very strange if a division champion was left out obviously i wouldnt care if it didnt hurt us in the end but it is kinda sucky.
First off, i just want to say that i really believe that Willie needs to go. He lost his team this season, and i dont think there is any debate about that. He also is a terrble in game manager.
A reason i think a change in the manager can benefit this team is because of what im experiencing right now. I go to boston college, and for 10 seasons under Tom Obrien BC was always a mediocre to good team, when they always had the talent to do great things. Each season they would choke and lose a gift game, always stopping them from being great. This has ended this season with a new coach coming in with a completely different attitude and way of going about things. Coach Jags has a very upbeat and personable style to him whereas obrien, simialr to wilie was unemotional and unengaging. Currently under this new coach wiht the same players, BC is thrieving currently ranked 7th and 6th in the nation in the polls.
I think this is the same situation as the mets have been under randolph. Have we dont anything great? No. We’ve been mediocre to good each season but have choked in all of them keeping them from greatness. A new coach can bring a new life to a team and get more out of players that are currently there, which willie has not done.
Interesting Read, Mets lose Money!
http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/30/commentary/sportsbiz/index.htm?postversion=2007100109
That is a good read, but he’s underestimating the stupidity of us Met fans – we’ll be back next year, buying tickets and gear.
Just out of curiosity….those people calling for Willie to be fired…..
Do you think that this team had the rotation or the bullpen to be legitimate competitors?
What was wrong with the rotation and BP? Top three in the NL until August wasn’t good enough for you??
Maybe if Willie didn’t insist on running “My Guy” Mota out there every other day the ratios would have stayed the same. And please don’t mention that Mota pitched 6 scoreless innings in the final week. That was the law of averages normalizing his #s. He still finished with an ERA above 5.76 through 59 1/3 innings.
And if you are going to blame Omar for Mota, imagine this …. If Lou Pinella was the manager, would he keep running Mota out there? Or would he be challenging Mota through the press, and demanding that someone else take Mota’s roster spot and insist on not pitching him?
That rotation and bullpen was good enough to be 7 games up with 17 to play. The Mets needed to win 1 or 2 more games to qualify and couldn’t do it. I can think of at least half a dozen moves that Willie made that played a role in a number of games down the stretch. If any of those moves garnered one more win, we’re playing today.
Willie Randolph=Grady Little
Sorry, he’s a nice man, but presiding over the greatest collapse in MLB history marks him for life, as a Met, anyway.
This has to be the most hardest seasons to swallow. One of the most talented teams in the majors and the worst finish. The part that bothers me the most with this finish is that it happened over a course two weeks plus. Forget that they played lame throughout the second half, but to squander seven game lead when they’re playing a bunch of bums is unforgivable.
Who’s to blame most? The players without a single doubt. For God’s sake pitch and hit the ball like a majot leaguer!
However coming up in second, and not by much, is Wilie. He
should have done something when the team was fading. Everyone saw it coming game after game. Reyes was slumping the whole month and maybe a little bit longer. Why didn’t he bat him second, eigth or anywhere in the line-up to either take the pressure off of him or make him realize “oh shoot I better wake up” Also its no crime to be creative with a tired and bad bullpen, could have tried Humber and/or Pelfry … I dont know personally but you’re the manager who failed to try something. Lastly, Wille’s remarks are weak. ‘If we smell rose…if not fine’ That’s total BS. As a leader there is no”fine” in defeat. He should not be fine with losing..where’s the winning attitude? Willie needs to learn from this just as much as the players. I would bring Willie back but with a stern understanding that he needs to be tougher on his players.
And in third is Omar. What Omar has done with team is been very good. But not great. I have very little problem with trying the old re-treads AS LONG AS you cut them as soon as it becomes clear that they would make it. Examples? Mota, Franco, Newhan, and Ledee for example. Also, Omar failed in making a starting rotation that could get past the seventh every now and then. Its no wonder that the bullpen fell apart. Omar also failed in getting some help before the deadline. I do not want to hear anything about other teams asking too much. Other teams improved (granted not many) why didn’t the Mets improve? Castillo was a nice pick up and I would re-sign, but Gotay could have gotten the job done.
And finally the whole orginzation. Why is it that the Yankees, for example could go to their minors and get help? Joba has been great. Where are the Mets’ great minors? The Yankees have been selling off their farm for years and yet they pull up Hughes and Joba. What is wrong with our minor league system? Why don’t we have a catcher getting ready to take over?
This winter will be a winter that EVERYONE needs to do some soul searching.
“as i see it, willie is a winner, he has a winner’s mentality, he works hard, believes in his players, and has only one care in the world, which is to win…frankly, that’s the attitude i want leading this team, and it is why most people believe he should stay”
Too bad you’re vision is incorrect now. Randolph is now a loser – he has presided over the biggest regular season choke job in MLB history, the stench of which will forever stick to him, the franchise, and the players involved, particularly Reyes, Wright, and Beltran. The whole roster are now losers, no matter what they accomplish in the future.
“I choose willie, mostly because i believe in him, but also if for no other reason than i don’t see a more suitable option available”
There is a ringing endorsement for Randolph’s continued employment with the Mets; there’s nobody better out there!
” …at the end of the day, willie has the right mindset and thick skin for this team and for this city…now, he needs a group of players and his own coaches who share the same qualities…in my opinion, it would be wise to retain willie, but to be successful the Mets must give him more power, while building this team beneath him and around the leadership of David Wright…”
Willie may have the attitude for handling the media and fan expectations but he doesn’t have the goods as a manager. If Willie wants players with the same qualities he has, there is a 20 minute car ride away in the Bronx. I still don’t believe Wright is a leader, someday, but not now. And, I am sure it will be met with doubt, but I think Reyes can be a leader.
I think there is an undertone to Matt’s comments that this is a referendum on Willie and his guys (e.g. Wright) vs Reyes, and I think that’s dangerous. Yes we’re all disappointed with the way Reyes has ended his season, but there has to be a reason. On the field Reyes became Randolph’s whipping boy and it’s rumored to have carried over to the clubhouse. Reyes gets benched for failing to run out balls, Wright, Delgado, Alou, and Beltran get passes. One reporter wrote that in the clubhouse Reyes told Randolph not to single him out when Randolph ripped him for lack of hustle. Randolph has a double standard and that is a problem for a manager, it reveals a lack of consistency, which is a necessary prerequisite for leadership. Additionally, some players regardless of sport just don’t perform when they aren’t enjoying themselves, and Reyes stopped enjoying himself. This season became a grind for him, and I think its because his relationship with Randolph is beyond strained. I believe Randolph drained Reyes’ joy, one of the reasons I loved watching the Mets play. In a lot of ways he is doing the same thing to Milledge. If Randolph come back, he needs to mend his relationship with Reyes, and the onus is on Randolph to apologize; and Randolph needs to distinguish the Mets culture from the Yankees culture.
In the end, I think the Mets need to do something dramatic to rid themselves of the baggage this team bears and dumping Randolph is a good place to start.
Yikes, that poll closed fast. I completely missed it.
Anyway, of course, I disagree with Matt’s analysis. The fact remains the team DID become complacent and “bored” and apathetic under Willie’s leadership, as Matt himself acknowledged.
Add to that his poor in-game startegy and I just do not see how you can conclude he should stay.
One of the articles Matt linked us to earlier today in the postmortem coverage indicated all managers who had led their teams to similar (though, by definition, less severe) collapses in history were gone either immediately or within 2 years of their collapses. Why delay the inevitable? Start fresh with a clean slate.
By the way, thanks to Matt, DJ, Anthony and all the rest for doing a herculean job all year!
WTF is all this noise about Willie’s “winners attitude”? He’s been here 3 years. 2 of those years they’ve collapsed in September and missed the playoffs.
Art Howe could have done just as good a job with the players Omar put out there.
Hey… I missed that poll… The Phillies and the Braves fans probably stuffed the ballot so the Mets can keep Willie and the Mets will never win with his arrogant, no-strategy management style… Lets get rid of him…
Keep Willie, keep HoJo and let Willie pick HIS own staff and this way be responsible for all that happens around him. Off Topie, I think the dancing belongs in the duguout or on the dance floor, no need to give the other team anymore reason to beat us. I am downhearted but looking forward to 2008 and hoping the Wilpons hear the cry for allowing Willie to choose his own staff not Minaya and Bernazard whom I’ve heard doesn’t like Willie. Could he be the source of rumors? Another must is that character and mental toughness to get through the down times must be a requirement for the makeup of the 2008 Mets that Willie needs to make this his team. Let’s Go Mets
The problem today is that the players think they are bigger than the game. This goes for baseball, basketball, football etc. Most players are concerned more about how many earrings they should wear, how long their necklaces should be, what kind of dance they should do after a touchdown, making a tackle, hitting a homerun, shooting a 3 point basket etc.( If course they still do this when the score shows that they are STILL LOSING THE GAME). None of them listen to the coach/manager. The players themselves are DESTROYING SPORTS. I personally cannot cheer for any team in these sports. Most of them are thugs, drug attics, bums etc. and are to stupid to know how to play their own sport. It’s a shame and it is only getting worse. Basically, for the last 5-10 years, SPORTS SUCK… Willie should be a man and manage the way he wants to and if he gets fired, at least he goes down fighting. He is being a wimp and letting the players RULE the team and call the shots.. Big mistake, Someone has to have the BALLS to put htese players in their place… I guess that person doesn’t exist yet…
Mutual Funds and Market Research…
I couldn’t understand some parts of this article, but it sounds interesting…
Actually, they are brilliant. Those two lines just ensured that there lines will be lit up for the rest of the show… ;)