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In today’s edition of New York Magazine, Chris Smith writes about his day following around Billy Wagner, who, according to Smith, is “honorable, defiant, and quite possibly doomed.”
Wagner, as quoted by Smith…
“Our pitching coach [Rick Peterson] has no experience talking to a bullpen. He can help you mechanically, but he can’t tell you the emotions. He has no idea what it feels like. And neither does Willie [Randolph]. They’re not a lot of help, put it that way.”
…people are using this quote to attack wagner, but i don’t understand why…i’m not sure what is wrong with it…, he’s essentially saying that neither willie nor rick understand what the pressure and is like in pitching every day from a bullpen in new york…and he’s right, they don’t…
…at any rate, in standard modern-media fashion, wagner forced himself to back-track from the comments, once learning that they would appear in the report…
Wagner, as quoted by in Newsday…
“I wasn’t trying to knock Willie or Rick because they’ve been great. As bad as we’ve played, they’ve been the most supportive coaches I’ve been around. No way was this a knock on Willie or Rick. I was referring to my experiences on the mound. It was not my intent to say those guys weren’t any help.”
matt can u make a poll asking if willie should be fired
Would love to see that…
Doing it now would bias the results as fans are still reacting on emotion.
Many have been down on him for a long time, well before the collapse.
Fine, then waiting shouldn’t change your opinion.
Actually, a poll now and maybe after the WS would be very telling. You could see the significance of emotion on the decision or if people felt that way even after some time. From a scientific point of view, you should always have a point of reference.
from a scientific point of view?!?!?!? I see where you’re going with that, however you don’t take a person’s baseline heart rate after they’ve finished exercising. Baselines should be set under neutral conditions . . .
Matt, if you do decide to do a poll like that, don’t forget to add these options:
NO — Omar is as much if not more to blame.
YES — But fire Omar too.
Very fair
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/20071001_Mets_Wagner_praises_Manuel__says_Phillies_were_better_team.html
More Wagner telling it like it is.
“It’s just shocking that we’re not going to be in the playoffs,” Wagner said. “We definitely weren’t the better team, but we’d earned the right to get there. The last 2 weeks, we just didn’t show up.”
And the Phillies did.
“They wanted it more,” Wagner said. “You can say whatever you want. They were the better team.”
C’mon Wagner was forced to apologize for that, he does’nt mean it!! He always blames everyone else!! Honestly he is’nt much better than Benitez was since he’s great untill the game means somthing (i.e.- the last couple of weeks)! Time for him to go but I just don’t know who to bring in but Omar should definitely be exploring the options!
68.3 IP, 80 K, 2.63 ERA, 1.1 WHIP. yeah, what an awful season.
what? forced by who? you can say a lot of things about him, but parroting the company line isn’t one of them.
Forced by Bean Stringfellow.
I don’t buy that for a second.
If Wagner were to be a FA soon or is looking for an extension, then that might make sense. Otherwise there doesn’t seem to be a good reason why Stringfellow would push Wagner to apologize and clarify his statements.
In fact, Wagner has said he might retire early.
willie has been to 10 world series in new york. he has a pretty good idea about the pressure. not to mention, being slammed everyday for his managing. yet, he manages to be publicly supportive of his players including wagner who rarely comes through in a big spot.
i wouldn’t trade wagner. it’s impossible to find relief pitchers, but if you look closely there isn’t much of a difference on the field btw wagner and benitez with the mets. nice #’s in the regular season except big games along with mediocre post-season pitching.
Regarding the last post (poll), I always root for whoever plays the Skanks.
Go Cleveland!
Ditto.
yup he should have whoever verses the skanks/philthies
Just asking…does not making the playoffs set this team back to the “pre Willie” era??
Worse - it defines the Steamboat Willie Era!!
The thought process has to be “Who will make us better than we are now?”
The Reyes debacle is the biggest hit to Willie supporters. Us “on-field guys” have more than enough reason to want Willie gone, but while the team is winning, we can really only enjoy and figure that you guys are right about Willie’ clubhouse demeanor being best for the club. When you can’t get Jose to run out a ground ball, there are problems in the club house, and that negates the arguement.
i’d opt for a successful minor league guy. I think it’s a better way to bring up the young guys.
Frankly, I don’t understand the need to run out every ground ball. Delgado, Beltran, Castillo, and Franco don’t do it. Jeter failed to do it in a postseason game. Does that mean it’s Torre’s fault?
I think everyone’s focusing on it because of his slump. When he’s going good, there are ground balls he doesn’t run out all the time but no one cares.
There’s no indication Willie is the cause of Reyes’ second half slump. No one knows what it is. Until it’s shown that Willie is the cause, then the Willie bashers can’t add Reyes to their ammunition..
in the 14 years btw davey johnson (1990) and willie randolph (2005) the mets finished:
1st: 0
2nd: 3
3rd: 3
4th: 2
5th-7th: 5
2 things. How many heartbreaks btw 1990 and 2005 and how many in the last 2 years.
Back to this post:
What is more BS: A vote of confidence or the attempt to retrack a statement.
were you watching in 1998 (losing the last 5 games needing just 1 to get into the playoffs), 1999 (losing 7 of 8 to the braves during the last 2 weeks to lose the division), and 2000 (losing to the yanks)?
as for the other years, it’s hard to have a heartbreak when your team is in last place.
Along this line, I think I realized today that last year hurt a lot more. One swing away from the World Series, vs. 8/9 wins away from the World Series. I mean, of course I’m crazy disappointed and it totally sucks, but I think last year sucked more.
Shhh, Zen. If you bring up 1998-2000, you damage the “Bobby V would have this team win 100 games” myths… ;)
Yes Zen,
I remember those 3 years vividly. Everyone wants Bobby V back but lets remember what happened in those 3 years. I dont want Bobby V back. he isnt the answer. And I never said there were zero years of heartbreaker btw davey and willie. I was comparing the numbers.
Yes, we were in las place with crap talent for many years. When you r in first place 2 years in a row and all you have to show for it is one round of playoff wins it isnt good. Its like finishing 2nd. If you’re complacent “zen” good for you. I’m not and now we have some serious issues. I’ve been a huge Willie supporter but he’s lost the team’s confidence and he’s lost respect. In game managing is not very good (and this is with a bench coach.) As someone else wrote, its like the Sox bringing back Grady Little.
Peterson should be gone and I think the same for Willie.
i’m not complacent. i for changing the problem with the team. PITCHING!
dude are you willie’s nephew or something? Just stop blindly defending the guy already. I’ve been reading your comments, which ALWAYS only highlight the positive things he has been a part of.
How about this- 3 straight september tank jobs by his teams. 1 playoff appearance in 3 years, which ended by being defeated by an inferior team, which lets face it, was a choke job too. He lost this team way back in June, and there are many factor that contributed to it, which if you’d like, I can list. It doesn’t really matter though, because he just is not the man to lead this baseball team to the promised land, and if you don’t see it now then I suggest you wake up and smell the roses.
Smelling the roses… which reminds me of a recent quote by our leader willie only a few weeks ago, as per METS DOT COM: “If we wake up and smell the roses and sip some champaign, thats great. If not, thats life.”
Really Willie? And we all wonder why this team didn’t have the killer instinct and never will with him managing. If they don’t win, EH, Thats life. Great winning attitude, thats how you win it all. Give me a break.
He is a nice guy and all i bet, but there is no way in hell he is leading the NY Mets to a world series championship in this lifetime. The sooner our front office realizes that the better.
and i’ve read the same group of angry mets fan posts about willie. omar. beltran. wright. reyes. etc.
it’s the same knee-jerk. no facts arguments that sports fans make regularly. trade reyes! wright makes to many commercials! it was the home run derby! omar only likes spanish players! how about the terrible white guys he brought in this year: sele, schoeneweis, newhan
i know willie’s dumb. he doesn’t have a winning attitude. except he’s the only guy on the team with multiple ws rings besides el duque.
you don’t have to be a relative to know wacko fans who were calling for him to be fired in july.
if you think it’s his fault. bring back the same team next year with another manager. no changes especially to the pitching. keep this pitching b/c pitching doesn’t win. managers do.
To be honest I haven’t been a willie fan since 2005 and have been one of those calling for his head for quite awhile now. However, I am not one who wants to trade everyone either.
Multiple world series rings? Hmm, lets see, he played 2nd base in the American League and sat on a log with Joe Torre to “learn” how to manage. Thats where his rings came from. The man never managed on any level in his life, let alone win as a manager. He has been handed very good talent and certainly has not overachieved with it. If you think he has, you are blind. These last 2 weeks I don’t blame on him really, but I do blame the previous 5 1/2 months of lackluster play on him, since he is the leader of it all. You know a few of those painfully obvious and horrible in-game decision he made throughout the year that cost us a game here and there? Would have been nice if they were wins now. But at that time when fans came on here to blast it, we were called chicken littles and bad fans…. when in actuality we are smart fans who had the foresight to see that willie’s bonehead bush league decisions (too many to list, and i am one that does not use hindsight, watch the games with me and i call them horrible moves BEFORE they backfire), stubborn arrogance to prove to everyone he knows ‘his guys’ and baseball better than anyone (by throwing mota day after day), and double-standard (treats vets different than young guys) attitude would cost us in the end. Low and behold, it did, and this is why he needs to go.
Bring in someone like Gary Carter, Ken Oberkfell, anyone to get this losing and choking stench away from our team. The players for the most part will not change, and will not suddenly flip a switch and see the world through willie’s eyes next year. He lost this team and WILL NOT get them back. Cut him loose.
did you ever consider that the team last year may have over-achieved? who were the great pitchers on that team or this team?
pedro was hurt last year after may.
the rotation was glavine, trachsel (lol), maine (rookie), el duque (here and there. when not on vacation).
the 5th starter was a combination of: lima, jeremi gonzalez, victor zambrano, ollie (6+era), dave williams.
the bullpen was quite good even when sanchez went down.
That team last year was Willie-proof. Willie always talks about picking your teammates up..well, Omar had a bad off-season, but he never picked him up by getting the most out of the hand he was dealt.
yeah. that’s some great starting pitching i listed from last year. lights out!
i am convinced you are willie himself. i just don’t understand what makes you so great, mr. randolph. Seriously what makes you so qualified for this job? 1 playoff choke in your 3 years here?
as usual. when presented with the facts. the critics go with a personal attack. i love it.
Facts? Personal attack?
Your facts about the 2006 mets was that they overachieved, correct?
This is simply NOT A FACT. An overachieving 97 win team does not lose to an inferior 83 win team. THAT is a FACT.
As far as personal attacks, you got me there. If someone called me willie randolph, I would also be highly offended and label it a personal attack, so sorry about that.
But seriously, wake up dude. Willie lost this team and will not get them back. Give me a few “facts” to make me think otherwise, please.
read the quote matt just posted by david wright. doesn’t sound like he’s lost the mvp from his side
give it up man, you come back with a david wright quote and thats all? what the hell else is wright supposed to say? does one players QUOTE excuse the PLAY of 24 others? Nope, sure doesn’t. Thanks for playing, try again
What time does the redneck express leave for parts unkown? I’ll drive tongue-Wagger myself. Ten plus yars in the bigs and you need a pithing coach that understands your feelings? This guy is a walking contradiction. No wonder they hated him in Philly.
And by the way, with a week left in the season, hire a handyman, Mr Fix it.
I am so pissed i cant take it ALL I LOOKED FOWARD TOO WAS THE PLAYOFFS I CANT TAKE IT OMG OMG OMG SUCK MY COCK WILLIE U CHOKE
Seeing the bullpen is so huge in baseball, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a bullpen pitching coach in the future. The psychology is totally different from the starters, and getting somebody who knows the pitchers, and that can help the Mgr (God knows Willie needs help with this) manage his pitchers and not burn them out!
wow theres already an article on the mets collapse on wikipedia
There was an article on Roethlisberger same day he crashed last year. Talking about people with no lives!
uh hum, glass houses.
Is Fred forced to come out with a vote of support for Willie, or will he just move forward and never comment?
I interpreted the comment more to be that they weren’t any help in that area (the emotional aspect of relieving), not that they are of no help period (at least in regard to Peterson).
If the jacket can fix mechanical problems, that’s the biggest part of his job. Keeping the guys ready and focused (roles, etc.) is really on Willie.
im extremely worried we are on the verge of another 02-04 stretch here, theres no quick fix in FA and omar has yet to pull off a block buster trade so ill believe that when i see it. the phillies will definitely be in the market for pitching and the braves will definitely trade renteria for a starter. i really hope our front office doesnt let this team get left in the dust.
I can’t believe pitchers would want to go to Philly over NY in that park. Braves, sure, but not the Phils.
I don’t know Matt is so apologetic to the players and the coaches all the time. He rarely blames Willie and has no problem with what Wagner said??? Wagner was clearly taking a shot: “They’re not a lot of help, put it that way.”
The bottom line is as Met fans we deserve to see a quick response to this collapse. If Willie has to be the fall guy I’m on board. This team had no fight in it like last year. There should be a clause in every manager’s contract - “If you have a 7 game lead with 17 games to play and you blow it, YOU’RE OUT OF HERE!”
Willie must go down! The biggest collapse of a team at the end of a season in baseball history has to be a mandatory firing! It simply must be!!!
Well then Willie’s job is safe because 6-1/2 games with 12 out is a much worse collapse. The Yankees 2004 choke was also worse and Torre kept his job.
Yanks were in the playoffs already. Totally different. I don’t have the bile for Randolph that others have, but after what I just saw, and the taint it will leave on Randolph as a Mets manager, I think it is in the best interest of this organization to move in a different direction, and quickly.
I personally would like to see Bobby V. back, but Carter and Oberkfell would be fine with me, too.
To me, there are just too many downsides to trying to “Save Willie” if you will. He’ll get a coaching job somewhere, and may get another chance to manage at some future date. But this disaster makes a turning of the page necessary for this franchise.
It’s still considered by many to be worse than the Mets collapse. I was listening to the FAN last night and Malusius, who’s a Yankee fan, even said 2004 was worse!
1 reason 2004 is worse is because it did happen in the postseason and the stakes were higher.
Torre already had won 4 WS rings for that organization…that being said, he probably should have been fired for that one. This year withstanding, what has he done since then? Has Torre won any championships that I am not aware of?
He confirmed my assumption that they did a terrible job dealing with the pitching staff. The counter argument is the the pitchers have to be held accountable but when nearly the entire pitching staff struggles to get outs during a 17 game stretch there has to be problem with the coaches. I relate it to a business. If all the employees are not producing, there’s a problem with management.
If Peterson ends up going, it will be fascinating to see what kind of comments come out of the Mets pitching staff. Peterson seems to be Kool Aid kind of guy. If you buy into his program, like Maine and Bannister did, you love him. But if you don’t, I think his hand on the shoulder, New Age approach rubs many of the more traditional athletes on the team the wrong way. If he stays, obviously you’re not going to get any of that.
I would demote him to the minors and put him in charge of the pitcher’s development for the entire minor league system. I’m confident he’s great with young pitchers but I think he’s terrible at the major league level with the veterans and the high stakes.
Does anyone know how I can get a stat on managerial ejections?
I’m not saying ejections would change anything, but I can’t recall Willie getting thrown out ever. I think there is a time and place to defend your team…to prove to them that you will defend them no matter what. This is part of the problem of 2007.
I’m trying to find stuff on this, I’ll let you know if/when I do
Trade Wagner.