|
Yesterday, the Colorado Rockies advanced to the World Series for the first time in the team’s brief 15–season existence.
Rockies bench coach Jamie Quirk, on his team’s second baseman, Kaz Matsui, as quoted by Lisa Olson in the Daily News…
“He’s a dynamic player, a tremendous personality. He gets along great with everybody. His sense of humor fits right in with this ballclub. I would call him a character. He makes me laugh…We only wanted him to play second base and that took a lot of pressure off. Not everybody succeeds in New York. It’s a tough place to play. There might have been some undue pressure with his contract and with the other Matsui on the other side of town.”
…naturally, such as the Daily News column linked above, a collection of racist and mean fans are helping to define the rest of us, which is so irritating…look, fact is, there are lots of Mets fans who are happy for kaz, like me, as well as my fellow blogger D.J. Short, and the people who posted similar comments to his post, and will likely post similar comments in this post…why is that so hard to believe…
…for me, i was glad kaz got traded, and i’m equally glad that he is doing well for the Rockies…sure, i hope he fails when facing the Mets, but that is more because i hope the Mets succeed…i don’t wish ill-will on anyone, except maybe the Philly Phanatic…
…so, good luck in the world series, kaz…smile, you’ve earned it…
Couldn’t agree more. Kaz was behind the 8 ball from day one because he came to a team with many, large holes except for SS. Remember how painful it was to see Jose at 2nd? IF some guy showed up to replace DWright at 3rd he to would have been hated from day 1. Kaz was a free swinging 3 hitter in Japan and was expected to automatically become Ichiro the day he showed up in camp. All they did was had him practicing slap hits to left.
They signed him to be a player he wasn’t, to fill a need they didn’t have. I blame the Duke of Hurl. (Duquette)
Kaz was not fit to play in NY and to be honest, his numbers are not great in Colorado short of the small bump he has gotten with the Colorado air. He occassionally hits a few important shots. Has a bit of pop. But on balance, he is a middle of the road player who is actually struggling to stay on the field as a starter. I can see him more as a utility guy for a major team stocked with talent. Of all the 2nd base options out there, and our need for one, given his experience in Colorado and assuming he never came to NY but failed in LA instead of here….I’d still not go after him and would prefer Eckstein or Castillo to him.
Good luck to him though. Even a blind squirrel eventually finds an acorn some of the time.
One of the nicest guys I’ve ever met. Definitely a character. I wish the best of luck. He is one of the reasons I want to the see the Rockies win this thing.
Say what you want about Kaz. He never dogged it once over here. But, remember how promising it was when he homered in his first at-bat in Atlanta? Then the following season too…then the following season too?
Good luck Kaz and go Rocks! Thanks for taking out Philly.
I can’t imagine anyone saying anything bad about Matsui. He’s a good guy, he just wasn’t a good fit for the NY Mets. I am very happy that he has found a place where he can succeed, we all knew he was a great ballplayer.
I wish him and the Rockies success in WS.
Here’s something bad that I don’t think can be refuted. He greatly weakened the Mets by demanding to play SS.
Good luck Kaz. I’ll be rooting for you and the Rockies in the WS. Regardless of what people have and will say about your talent and inability to thrive in New York, you hustled and played hard without complaining, even with the treatment you received.
Watching Kaz play for the Mets was exasperating. Absolutely exasperating. He literally didn’t do anything well. Couldn’t hit. Couldn’t field. Couldn’t steal bases. Made no contributions whatsoever. But as well all know, some guys can play in New York and some guys can’t.
Good for him that he’s having this nice little run with the Rockies, and I’m particularly glad that it came at the Phillies’ expense.
Count me in as a Met’s fan that is thrilled Kaz is doing well. I always had the impression that he worked as hard as he could, and gave everything he had. You could see in his face that he felt he was letting everyone down when he did not succeed and he did not make excuses.
kaz had expectations ot be well above average when he came to the mets, played well below average and got called out for sucking, thus, no one was sad to see him go. the rockies had zero expectations and he sucked a little less (played a little below average) and thus everyone in denver is thrilled with him. there is a more than good chance that kaz is going to suck for the rest of his time in the majors tho, so if the rox end up signing him long term based on 1 hit in the playoffs and all the residual good vibes from this season then they are in for a rude awakening.
I am seriously as non-emotional about Kaz Matsui right now as one possibly can be.
Count me in as one of those obnoxius fans (minus the racism) who absolutely HATED this guy when he was clogging up our roster with A-ball level play for 3+years. I will not take it back nor hide that fact under a vail of appreciation for his recent heart-warming comeback. I never had at the time, nor will I ever again, witness another ballplayer, for any MLB team, who was as clueless as Kaz Matsui was in a Mets uniform. He was a disgrace and arguably set our organization back a year or so b/c he was considered to be a key cog to a playoff-caliber team. Over the past 3+ years on this blog, I don’t think I lamented about any subject more than I did about Kaz Matsui
I’m just glad this article so correctly states that Matsui ‘failed’ in NY. It wasn’t the boos from the stands, the writers, the team, the organization, or the coaching that caused him to fail….it was 100% on him and his ridiculous contract.
It’s a perfect time to rub salt in the wounds of Mets fans right now, and I seriously hope the National Media recognizes that the Mets made the right move in letting him go, b/c he was never going to be successful in NYC. But since much of the nation’s opinion on the matter will be influenced by the words of Chip Carray or Joe Buck, I have doubts that the reality of the situation will be revealed.
I wouldn’t worry about “much of the nation’s opinion on the matter” being colored by the terrible broadcasters who call the postseason games. Nobody’s watching in the first place.
The average audience for the NLCS was lower than the average audience of “Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?” or whatever that stupid show is. Of course that show isn’t shown in bars & restaurants, the way baseball playoff games are, so the numbers are skewed, but the bottom line is that VERY FEW people have actually listening to the cretins on Fox and on TBS.
Ironic how you say that ‘Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader” had better ratings….b/c my list of most undesirable individuals to listen to, in order:
Chip Carrey
Joe Buck
Jeff Foxworthy
Berman and StuScott aren’t on this list…b/c ‘undesirable’ is just to kind of a classification. They are on a level that unsurpassed.
is fox the only one who is in love with joe buck? i can’t stand that this guy calls every sporting event of significance these days. maybe im a homer, but give me ron darling any day of the week.
I am glad to see Kaz fitting in and contributing on the NL Champs Colorado Rockies. Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy. Granted, he was not the type of player everyone made him out to be while in NY; however, he did deserve a second change. He’s having tremendous success not only during the playoff drive but during the season. Good going Kaz…Suerte in the Series!
<a href=”http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/rockies/2006-05-30-rockies-cover_x.htm” title=”Baseball’s Rockies seek revival on two levels”
That’s enough reason for me to root against them. Kaz Matsui is just icing on that cake. I hope they get swept by whoever.
so what exactly is your beef?
That’s an enormous amount of hatred you must feel. So perhaps the issue is really you.
Perhaps the issue is with people standing up on national television and thanking Jesus for their victory in a sporting event, which is insulting to both their religion and my intellect.
Your apparent fragile intellect aside…..Why is it insulting to their religion? They are giving thanks to an entity that they believe allowed them to focus and produce successful results.
They have the right to say what they want. As you are free to voice your opinion on the matter as well. It’s a beautiful system.
Difference is it’s pretty clear where they are coming from. Can’t say the same regarding your comments.
slob, if you don’t like people thanking the lord for their accomplishments then you have to stop rooting for the Mets. Players like Carlos Beltran are devout Christians and I’ve seen him thank god many times for various personal and team accomplishments. Marlon Anderson is another devout Christian.
There are many players on many teams who thank the lord after a win or good game. If some Rockies just did it, then they are no different from other teams.
1) You don’t think it’s at least mildly insulting to the sanctity of a religion if the players invoke Jesus’ name with every success? Does anyone really believe that any deity is so fundamentally distracted by banality that they would interfere in the outcome of a baseball game?
2) Where I’m coming from? What does that even mean. It seems pretty clear that you are grasping for straws in some attempt to insult me personally. All I did was state that I would be rooting for the other team because they were less vocal about their faith. Why does that cause you to want to insult me?
3) I root for the Mets in spite of those players. I don’t dislike them. I don’t have any issue with their personal beliefs, and whoever they thank regarding their personal accomplishments is none of my business. But I will say that I would find it much easier to root for a bunch of beer-swilling, unkempt, foul-mouthed atheists.
4) It isn’t just “some Rockies”. It’s an organizational philosophy. I don’t identify with it. I think it is flawed and unnecessarily exclusionary. The Rockies’ clubhouse is essentially a workplace. People should not have to feel as though they must be of a particular religion to be accepted at their workplace.
slob, I know some of your comments were in reply to Danny, but some were in reply to me, so I’m going to address them all:
1) Can you be specific as to what any Rockie said after the NLCS that you are objecting to? Or are you just talking in generalities? Did a Rockie just thank the lord? If so, that’s nothing but a tribute to their god and it wouldn’t have mattered if the player was thanking Allah or Buddha for the success. It’s an acknowledgment that we humans are pretty small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. It’s a sign of humility. I guess you’d rather have a player get up and say “hey, I was like a god out there and I rocked tonight and my teammates can kiss my feet for this win.”
2) Do you know the Braves have had christianity nights with christian bands and such? That Smoltz is one of the most vocal supporters of such events and has been involved in a controversy regarding religious-based intolerance? And as was stated in the USA Today article, the Nats have had their own controversy with christianity and intolerance. Funny how the Rockies have yet to have one incident over their faith that has caused a controversy in the community. And that there was not one claim from a player in that article that the atmosphere in the clubhouse was one of prejudice or intolerance. Seems you have the “vocal” ones tabbed wrong.
3) The Mets have had teams where they scheduled regular Sunday services. Fonzie was also devout and had bible reading sessions with some of his teammates. And as I mentioned, both Anderson and Beltran are very devout. There are probably many more current Mets too. So you’re saying it’s ok if it’s a team you root for but not OK for the Rockies? You’re saying it’s none of your business that Beltran thanks the lord for a team win or personal accomplishments, but if a Rockie does it, it’s an insult to religion? Wow, way to go there with double standards!
4) Not all Rockie players or team executives are devout christians. What’s an organizational philosophy is to try to recruit players with good character (like Omar tries to do) without regard to beliefs. O’Dowd even said he didn’t know exactly who was christian and who wasn’t. There is nothing exclusionary in their recruitment of players or personnel. The article makes that clear but I guess it’s more important for you to rant about religion. There is also no basis for your inference that players on the Rockies who are not christian feel they are not accepted. I doubt Kaz is christian. Yet he probably feels more comfortable in the Rockies clubhouse and in the city of Denver than he ever did with the Mets in NY.
Some in the media have chosen to blow up this story all out of proportion. Thankfully it’s just an itty bitty minority from what I can tell.
Bottom line is that not one ex-player or ex-employee or community group has ever come out and criticized the team or the front office for their beliefs or the environment they fostered. The same cannot be said of the Braves or the Nats.
1) I was going by the article, not what anyone said after the NLCS. When I read the quotes by Monfort I made my decision to never root for the Rockies, unless they happen to play the Yankees, or anyone ahead of the Mets in the East.
2) I was aware of the Braves controversy regarding their faith nights, which I personally find deplorable. I was not aware of the Nats. Doesn’t really matter since I’d never root for either of those teams anyway. As far as Smoltz goes, I know he’s been a vocal “Christian athlete”. And while I certainly don’t agree with him I recognize his right to be whatever he wants. Again, this isn’t about any one player, or number of players. It is about organizational philosophy. Smoltz can play ball and he can rip the still-beating hearts out of sacrificial virgins to feed to Quetzalcoatl for all I care, I’d just prefer not to hear about it.
3) The Mets have never, as whole, had the Christian athlete haven image that the Rockies have, so that comparison doesn’t work. I’m a Met fan because when I was six I watched a bunch of exciting, energetic, brash cokeheads win a World Series. Not going to change my stripes because a couple of religious players join the team years later. It is not a double standard to keep your allegiance despite philosophical differences with several players on the team. We’re talking about the Rockies here, a team I had no opinion on prior to reading that article. As far as players “thanking the lord” after a big win, I tend to cringe whenever I hear it, regardless of what team they’re on, Beltran included. I’d prefer if they didn’t do that. But I don’t really care as much you seem to think I do. I recognize it’s part of the game.
4) As far as how Kaz, or any other player, feels, I don’t know. Don’t really care. I know how I’d feel, and that is what formed my inference. I’ve had to work in situations like that before, and it was without a doubt the worst working environment I ever had to endure.
This isn’t about the Mets. This isn’t about Beltran. This isn’t about the Braves. This is about how the Colorado Rockies have become known as “the team of Jesus freaks”. It’s just not my cup of tea. This time, I’ll be rooting for the other guy.
1) So you don’t like a team because its owner is a devout Christian who may have loony ideas but does not impose his religion on his employees, tolerate an environment of exclusion or prejudice, or hire according to religious faith? Uh, ok. :roll:
2) Do you know what the Rockies organizational philosophy is? Care to state it? There is nowhere in the article that states the philosophy is anything other than to acquire people with “good character.” Christianity is not a requirement. The philosophy may have arisen out of Christian beliefs, but that’s as far as it goes. The Rockies philosophy is no different from that often espoused by the Wilpons and sometimes by Omar.
3) The “Christian athlete haven image” which was portrayed by the USA Today article has been refuted by Rockies players and management as being misleading (see below). I’m not surprised, as at one point in the article, the author states a situation to exist (pressure on players to act Christian to keep their jobs), says former Rockies players confirm it, but then totally fails to back that up. He doesn’t name any players and instead just gives a quote by Sweeney in which he merely wonders whether that situation exists too but doesn’t confirm it. Sloppy journalism at best. If you want proof that this article was misleading, how about the fact that the story never had any traction? It has been relegated to fringy, edgy or agenda-driven blogs. Even with so many stories on the Rockies the last few weeks, I’m not aware of any established media outlets even mentioning it.
As for a double standard, that’s exactly what I see in you. You’re criticizing a team harshly because some of its players are devout Christians yet the team you root for has them too. And maybe even more of them. Your prior allegiance to the Mets is the reason for your double standard, but it nevertheless is a double standard. And if you don’t care if players thank the lord after a win, then why did you say in your previous post: “Perhaps the issue is with people standing up on national television and thanking Jesus for their victory in a sporting event, which is insulting to both their religion and my intellect?” That’s exactly what Beltran and lots of other athletes do everyday all over baseball. You’re contradicting yourself.
4) You’re basing your opinion on your own personal experiences. As mentioned, there is no indication that the beliefs held by Rockies officials or players have ever had a negative impact on any player, employee or community organization. And as mentioned, the article was misleading in the first place.
What’s funny is that “the team of Jesus freaks” is solely your characterization. Your words. No one else (except maybe the fringe elements) is saying it. If that’s how you want to be – hateful and narrow-minded – then that’s your choice.
Now, for the article being misleading, see this post made on June 1st, 2006 at 11:59am on this blog:
http://demagogue.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_demagogue_archive.html
Here are some excerpts:
“…subsequent articles in two Colorado newspapers reported that USA Today misrepresented the influence of religion on the team…several Rockies players took issue with USA Today’s depiction. For example, this is what Rockies pitcher Jason Jennings told the Denver Post about the original article:
“It was just bad. I am not happy at all. Some of the best teammates I have ever had are the furthest thing from Christian. You don’t have to be a Christian to have good character. They can be separate. It was misleading.”
The Denver Post article also clarified this point:
The (USA Today) story stated that men’s magazines such as Playboy, Penthouse and Maxim could not be found in the Rockies’ clubhouse, but that Bibles were present.
Several players read Maxim in the visiting clubhouse during the Padres’ series this week. Two separate issues sat on the center coffee table Wednesday.
“I have never seen a Bible (out in the open) in our clubhouse,” said pitcher Aaron Cook, who has led the team’s chapel service during spring training. “Most of the guys on this team are Christians, but not all of them. And the fact is you don’t build a winner around just Christians. If that was the case, everybody would be doing it.”
Slob –
You have to understand that your original post was as open ended as it gets. So, yes….I was fishing for an explanation. Besides, I seriously doubt that you were realistically expecting no-one to respond.
We live in a society where it has become fopau to be a Christian and, worse yet, to proclaim being one. There is this rather large secular elitist movement that has taken over much of the American Institution and, through media and popular culture, scoffs and ridicules those with faith and paints them with broad brush strokes. Faith is not a red-state/blue-state thing, and the arrogance of Hollywood, Lobbyists, and Media Moguls have strategically and successfully defined it as such. Very unfortunate.
I can understand the gripe with Religious influence targeting the government, as it is a constitutional violation and is indeed unAmerican. But if the Rockies end up winning the World Series and give just one ounce of thanks to the Lord, as it is their right, I will guarantee that the elitists will be threatened and react with hateful carpet-bombing condescension. Is that any less Un-American? Despite the hypocrisy and targeted over-reactive persecution, Chrisitians will survive. The have certainly endured worse things than the wrath of Bill Maher. So really, it’s just another day.
I do think it is a bit cheesy when someone thanks Jesus for hitting a game winning HR or, better yet, knocks out his opponent in Round 5. Does Jesus care that this guy won a ballgame? no. But does he care that one of his followers is happy and wants to give thanks for his God-given gifts? Absolutley. So I have no problem with it. To me, it’s no differnt than thanking your parents, coach, or a HS teacher who changed your life and got you to where you currently stand. But I can understand why others may feel uncomfortable at the cheese-level.
But what I don’t understand is if someone goes so far as to say they will root against a team b/c of their faith, and use the “Faith has nothing to do with baseball” line as their defense. Yet for 4 hours you will watch the Colorodo Rockies run, hit, and throw a baseball…and do so with excitement and precision (something our team lacked 80% of the time this year…but I digress). You will likely see nothing in regards to them porfessing their faith over those 4 hours. IT’s not like they subsistiuted “Take Me Out to the Ballgame” with “Shine Jesus Shine”. But the mindboggling reasoning is that you decide to not root for them b/c of a 10 second period AFTER the game in which one player may chose to thank Jesus. That makes absolutely no sense and truely has NOTHING to do with the baseball game.
First of all, how is saying I’m not gonna root for them “criticizing them harshly”? You seem to want me to like them. Secondly, that the story “has no traction” and is “misleading” is YOUR assertion. I don’t think so. I’ve heard otherwise. And whether or not YOU believe it to be overblown is not reason enough for me to root for them. Aaron Cook, the guy who LEADS the prayer sessions is telling everyone he’s never seen a bible out in the open. First of all, he’s one of the participants, not an impartial observer. Second, even if that is true it doesn’t mean that it isn’t a hostile working environment for those who don’t conform. That no one has come forward to criticize it only proves to me that people are still afraid of publish backlash if they have the nerve to criticize anything Christian.
I’m puzzled as to why this is so upsetting to you? I like less Jesus in my baseball. So what?
You said the Rockies’ actions were “insulting” to religion, “exclusionary,” and suggested they have fostered an atmosphere comparable to the “worst working environment” you’ve ever encountered. If that isn’t harsh, I don’t know what is. There is no basis for the latter two points, and as to whether they were insulting, that’s a matter of opinion. But if you insist on thinking so then you’d have to agree that similar actions by Beltran and other Mets and players throughout baseball are similarly “insulting.”
And no, it is not just my assertion that the article is misleading and has no traction. The Denver Post did follow up stories that said it was misleading. The participants involved said it was misleading. And that blogger I cited called it misleading. That blogger by the way appears to have a strong secularist bent, taking to task religious conservatives.
If you’ve heard anyone say this article has merit, give a source and link. Give a source with facts and quotes, not just opinion/commentary. As I said, the only one talking about it these days are fringe or edgy blogs. No one else is. If you think they are, it would be easy to find a link, right? Give one.
And this story came out more than a year ago. Since then I am not aware of a single ex-player or employee who has confirmed anything negative critics such as you are saying about the team’s beliefs. There have no doubt been plenty of players and employees who have since left the organization. Yet not a single one has supported your position. As ex-players and employees, they would have no fear of retribution by speaking out against an old employer if they felt there was a detrimental working environment .
By the way, I’m not for “less” religion in baseball, I’m for no religion in baseball. I’m an agnostic. But as long as it’s harmless wherever it happens to be, then it doesn’t bother me a bit. What the Braves did and the Nats did was harmful. What the Rockies did/do isn’t.
If they want to practice Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or Buddhism at Shea everyday in the clubhouse or in the executive offices, I have no issue with it at all as long as they are not exclusionary or biased against other faiths.
I don’t want you to like the Rockies. If you want to root for the Indians, fine. I just want to point out where I believe your thinking on this issue is very erroneous, fed by a misleading article and/or prejudicial leanings on your part. I know I’m not going to change your opinion. I just want to give my opposing viewpoints … and challenge you to support your opinions.
Danny -
Persecution? Come on. The numbers just don’t add up.
And this isn’t about some 10 second prayer of thanks. This is about Charlie Monfort, Keli MacGregor, Dan O’Dowd, and Clint Hurdle “strongly encouraging” the players to attend weekly bible study sessions. Big difference.
VC-
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060619/zirin
This Nation article, while certainly outdated at this point, and seemingly a little to reliant on the assumption of accuracy regarding the USA Today article, contains an interesting quote by former Rockies player Mark Sweeney. Added to the quotes from Monfort, MacGregor, O’Dowd, and Hurdle I feel it is more than enough to deem whatever it is they’re doing over there as inappropriate.
Wow, slob, do you have an agenda or what? It’s like you’re making things up. Taking the USA Today story and running with it on your own. For example, you say right above: “This is about Charlie Monfort, Keli MacGregor, Dan O’Dowd, and Clint Hurdle “strongly encouraging” the players to attend weekly bible study sessions.” Yet nowhere in the USA Today article does it say such a thing. And worse, you put “strongly encouraging” in quotes as if those are the words used by either the author of the article or someone quoted in the story. They weren’t. They are once again your words. Your imagination. You must be paranoid to make up such things.
As for the Nation commentary, it merely regurgitated the USA Today article shortly after it first appeared and before the Denver Post wrote the stories about how it was misleading. It gave no new facts, no new quotes, they did no interviews. (The Sweeney quote was merely lifted from the USA Today article.) How is that traction? Traction is when other media outlets follow-up with stories confirming or expanding on the original story. What’s ironic is that the Nation commentary does talk about faith days that the D-Backs and Marlins have had, which I didn’t even know about. So lets see — the Braves, Nats, Marlins and D- Backs have all had team-sponsored faith days and prayer services — but the Rockies have not! Yet it is the Rockies you want to point out for their religious beliefs.
:roll:
Wanted to add that the Nation commentary says:
Assumedly, Shawn Green (Jew), Ichiro Suzuki (Shinto) or any of the godless players from Cuba don’t have the “character” Monfort is looking for.
How ironic since shortly thereafter they trade for Kaz who O’Dowd says he’s had his eyes on for years. And Kaz goes on to have a great run for them. I guess it’s because he felt out of place and excluded in the Rockies clubhouse? :wink:
The quotes are all there and they stand as quoted. Their veracity is undeniable. And again, I must ask you, what the hell does this have to do with the other teams (whose actions I’ve already stated I find just as distasteful)? You seem to be fishing for me to condemn them as well. If they were in the World Series I might be rooting against them as well. But they’re not. The Rockies are.
What numbers don’t add up? What on earth are you talking about?
VCarver is absolutely thrashing you on this subject right now. And, no offense to him, it’s not very difficult. All he is doing is pointing out the blatant inaccuracies of your paraphrasing an article that perhaps you should read just one more time. I mean…you are seriously just making things up.
Slob, the quotes the Nation used are merely lifted from the USA Today article. There is no new news in that commentary. No new quotes. No new facts. I never doubted the veracity of the quotes in the original USA Today article. Not once.
What I doubt is your statement here about the Rockies “strongly encouraging” players to attend weekly bible study. You made that up. There is no quote or statement in that article to support that..
The USA Today article also fails to support your view of an exclusionary, bigoted working environment.
Danny, no offense taken. :smile:
slob, to address your other question — about the other teams and their team-sponsored faith days and such. My point is that religious elements throughout baseball are probably more widespread than we think. I didn’t even know about the D-Backs and the Marlins prior to reading that Nation commentary today. My point is that probably every single team has groups of players and/or owners who are very religious. So if you base your rooting on the presence of religion, then you’d probably have to strike just about every team off your list. (except of course the Mets who you had a prior rooting interest in). For all we know, there are more devout Christians among the Cleveland Indians than there are on the Rockies.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/baseball-batting-for-jesus-1139352.html
That’s actually the article I was quoting, not Monfort himself. It’s just more rehash though. The point is ultimately that there are four born-agains running that team. As their quotes indicate, they’ve allowed that to influence their philosophy. That’s not debatable. And that was the only thing I had an issue with. You say the article is incorrect. I say, at least in this case, where there’s smoke there’s fire. My own personal experience tells me that when a whole bunch of Christian Athletes get together, it isn’t always a good thing. And that’s really all I was trying to say. You’re making a way bigger deal of that than is really necessary.
You are absolutely correct regarding it being more widespread than we think. The question is whether or not you view it as a problem or not. And if you do, whether the Rockies are part of the problem. Personally, I believe that they are. I believe that the fact that they’ve had no faith days is inconsequential. I think, due to that article, Monfort may have decided that he doesn’t want his team perceived as the Jesus team. Whether this is because he doesn’t want to bring attention to their team philosophy, I don’t know. He may believe, correctly, that it would alienate some fans. All I’m saying is, that they’re at the forefront of the controversy. You say undeservedly so. I disagree. . But I don’t think I’ve been able to press upon you how trivial this all is. It’s merely one small concern I have. There are other factors. For instance, Jesus Christ himself could be playing the Yankees and I would have to root for him.
With all due respect, you’re using a story written by an Irish journalist, on an Irish web site in Ireland more than a year later to support your view that the story had traction? C’mon. Do the Irish even understand baseball? LOL.
Not only that, but that site, like the Nation, merely used the original USA Today story as their source (all the quotes are directly from there). The statement about encouraging bible study is merely an unsubstantiated view that the author gives based on his interpretation of that article.
I have to admit I have never been around a “whole bunch of Christian athletes,” but seeing how they apparently exist on almost every team and there have been few issues regarding them (except for isolated incidents like Smoltz and Church of the Nats) I can’t see any reason to pillory the Rockies.
Maybe the reason I’m making a big deal out of it is because you made a big deal out of the USA Today article which, again, I believe is very misleading.
Slob – I can understand your point of view. There are a lot of pushy Christians out there who go overboard with not just proclaiming the message, but forcing it and using fear tactics. I see it occassionally and usually correct them. Speaking to their motives, commonly they are doing it for ‘themselves’ or for an ego boast. Which is not the message. It’s not about ‘YOU’.
But, I assure you, a very steep majority of these groups are not evil overly-judgemental ‘Jesus Freaks’ blowing up abortioin clinics. They are good people, following a good message, and trying to live a good life. When observed and practiced, that can be very contagious to other free-minded individuals who decide to join. And not one of these articles considers that perhaps that is what has transpired in the Coloroado clubhouse. That is something so many of these secular ellitist celebrities will never understand.
I’m done. Good debate.
Enjoyed it, gentlemen.
slob, I don’t view religion in sports as a problem unless it breeds intolerance and bigotry. When it does, it’s a problem. If not, no problem.
The fact that the Rockies have had no faith days is very significant. These events as held by the Nats, D-Backs, Braves and Marlins are team-sponsored Which means the organizations are officially promoting the events and the ideas behind them. Now that’s pressure! That more than any loony quote from an owner in an article says to me there’s an organizational philosophy that heavily factors in religion. The organization in this case is putting more than its stamp of approval on the ideas — it’s putting money behind them to promulgate them.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree about whether the Rockies were misrepresented in that USA Today article or not. I agree that there is a controversy, but I am glad that no one is bringing it up now in regards to the Rockies. I guess that’s because either the whole issue is inconsequential or people feel the Rockies really aren’t the poster boys for religion and baseball that some are making them out to be.
It has been a good debate. This is definitely a topic worthy of discussion.
Danny, I am most certainly secular and elitist, but please don’t call me a celebrity.
the only thing that’s clear is that Shea is not a place that breeds success easily
the fans are partly to blame
as are the media
as is the pitcher friendly nature of Shea
it all adds up to a franchise mostly known for failure
here’s hoping the new stadium us better for us than Shea was
and the fans stop rushing to judgment (Heath Bell, anyone?)
I hope he fails miserably in the W.S. and just can’t root for him. And yes good point above- he did significantly hurt the Mets franchise by demanding to play SS. That hurt the team big time, and that was way out of line for somebody who had never played in the major league before.
It’s utterly ridiculous to me that “Mets fans” are writing him good luck messages on this blog. This is from the theater of the ridiculous.
It’s not Kazuo’s fault that the Mets mistook him for the next Ichiro. He stunk as a Met, but he also busted his tail.
Now Mike Hampton’s another story. I wish that miserable weasel only the worst of luck (our collective hex seems to be working, actually).
II would like see Kaz IN Mets uniform in 2008. That will be a dymanamic one two punch.
If Mets offer a contarct less than he can get anywhere else, he will take it to pay off the trust they had in him to sign him.
Mets need a class like him in their clubhouse.
His 4 errors for the year is amazing .
All the Kaz bashing is very mean and stupid.
I’m sorry, but reading that just gave me my first ever non-acid flashback.
Don’t ever phuking write something like that again.
Divine intervention only works if you have players who are not “bored” with all their talent! :smile: