|
In a report for the Daily News, citing ‘industry sources,’ Mark Feinsand and 
Bill Madden write that the Yankees intend to offer Alex Rodriguez a five-year contract extension worth roughly $140 million.
Buster Olney reported a similar contract offer from the Yankees to Rodriguez yesterday at ESPN.com.
According to multiple reports, Rodriguez, 32, can opt out of his current contract and become a free agent. He has three years and a potential $91 million left on his current deal, of which $21 million will be paid by his former team, the Texas Rangers.
…the early buzz from baseball, which had been bubbling for months, suggested that, if a-rod hits the open market, boras will seek 10–year, $300 million for his client…so, considering his current contract, plus the extension offer, he’d go in to next season with the Yankees playing with a eight-year, $236 million deal…the question will be: does a-rod want to break Barry Bond’s record under the spotlight and pressure of new york, with all the good and bad that it offers, or does he want to do it some place else, where it may be easier…
However, Yankees GM Brian Cashman has repeatedly told reporters that, if Rodriguez becomes a free agent, he will pass on trying to re-sign him.
Meanwhile, also in the Daily News, Bill Price, using tired rhetoric, overt assumption and lots of sarcasm, explains why the Mets ‘need’ to sign Rodriguez, writing…
“They need a jolt (one bigger than hitting guru Rudy Jaramillo can provide). Their fans need a morale boost. Their roster needs a bona-fide, everyday superstar…Even at a mere $35 million a year for 10 years, it makes perfect sense, both from a business and baseball standpoint.”
…fine, but, while i am not totally against the Mets signing rodriguez for the sake of signing rodriguez, i just don’t see how it solves their biggest problem, which is pitching…in a perfect world, they sign rodriguez and also solve their pitching issues, but i am not exactly sure how that happens yet…
…also, yes, rodriguez is a great player, but he’s one player…and we’ve been over this before, with him in fact…a team doesn’t need an a-rod to win a world series…it helps, and it certainly doesn’t hurt, but he has never been the missing link, just ask the Rangers, Mariners and Yankees (who couldn’t get to a world series with him), and ask the D’Backs, Rockies and Indians, who got further in the playoffs than the Yankees, who had a-rod and a $150 million payroll to go with him…
…if the Mets are going to get bogged down in lengthy negotiations this winter, and spend a big chunk of change, i hope it’s for a young, top-of-the-rotation starting pitcher, not a bat, unless that’s their only option, in which case i’d welcome a-rod in a second…
 |
 |
 |
RSS 2.0 Both comments and pings are currently closed.
“if the Mets are going to get bogged down in lengthy negotiations this winter, and spend a big chunk of change, i hope it’s for a young, top-of-the-rotation starting pitcher, not a bat, unless that’s their only option, in which case i’d welcome a-rod in a second…”
That young starter isn’t available and likely won’t be unless you deal for one. If you deal for one, you have to give up a HUGE package in terms of prospects. A ROD is wishful thinking, the Mets will just overpay for Livan Hernandez and Scott Linebrink and expect everything to be fine.. but things won’t be.
We have the ability to sacrafice some things to get a starter that can give us innings and is also young. The Mets can pursue Joe Blanton, Oakland’s young #3 type pitcher.
Last year, the price was Lastings Milledge. After the success he had this year, a deal involving Milledge and Heilman could probably land him, also causing a major change in the bullpen, which could have a good effect. Also letting go of the baggage in Sele, Schoeneweis, and Mota would definitely help.
Hopefully, Joe Smith,Orlando Hernandez, Luis Castillo, Paul Lo Duca, Moises Alou, Ramon Castro and Marlon Anderson will be on the 25 man roster as well, along with the addition of a replacement lefty such as JC Romero or Jeremy Affeldt.
The roster would then consist of Martinez, Maine, Perez, Blanton, Pelfrey, Hernandez, Sosa, Smith, Feliciano, Romero/Affeldt, Sanchez, Wagner, Lo Duca, Castro, Delgado, Castillo, Gotay, Anderson, Reyes, Wright, Alou, Beltran, Chavez, and Gomez.
I agree that a young innings eater is a good thing.
Falcon4e is def. correct that omar isnt getting one by waiving his arms and blinking three times. It will take a trade and what better way to position the team to put together the pieces than to add a beast like ARod.
this will free up lastings and some other top prospects to be dealt for an innings eating young arm — whoever that is.
Agree with the point, but disagree with the logic. Having Arod DOES hurt your team, no matter what you say, if you have to pay him 30-35 million. He’s a great player, yes, but he’s not better than Carlois Beltran and Johan Santana, or some such combination of two players, who could be had for the same amount of money. Spending $35 million on him instead of 2-3 solid or even great players hurts your team. Please, please, please Mets stay away from AROD.
I’ve seen many boards after every offseason say “Pass on this guy.. wait for X to hit free agency”
In 2003, I think it was Kerry Wood. Then Santana around that time before he signed the four year extension with the Twins. It’s just hard to look ahead and say “He’s going to be available for sure”
Carlos Beltran and Alex Rodriguez is better than most combinations, particularly when theres no guarantee Johan Santana even sees free agency. If Twins decide to not trade him, then you have to suspect the Mets will be hot and heavy for him, as will every other big market team. I could see Santana getting 30 million annually +. That’s the advantage to trading for Santana, you have a window to sign him and its possible he may sign for less than market value. But.. the only way to ensure we have Santana is to trade Jose Reyes which is something I’m not willing to do.
Signing A ROD hurts your team if thats the only move you make. If Wilpon decides to open up the wallets more (and I believe he can, revenue is going up.. he has SNY..) then it isn’t such a bad deal. Also A ROD will pay for himself as he gets through the Home Run chase and Citifield will indeed be sold out every night.
Citi Field will be sold out every night regardless
Manny Ramirez has averaged more RBIs per game (162-games) over his career than A-Rod. And he’s more clutch than A-Rod. So how come A-Rod is asking to be paid like the best player in the game? How come he’s been paid like the best player in the game?
Even at his current salary A-Rod is overpaid, let alone what the Yankees are thinking of offering him. Yet I bet Boras and A-Rod hold out for more.
And A-Rod will hurt any team not named the Yankees. Most teams just can’t afford to tie up $30 million in one player — and that includes the Mets. A-Rod will have a negligible impact on Mets attendance should they be foolish enough to sign him. He did nothing for attendance in Texas or Seattle. And it’s debatable whether or not he helped attendance for the Yankees. He’s just not that big of a draw. I’m sure his reputation apart from his stats doesn’t help.
Meant to say: “Manny Ramirez has averaged more RBIs per season…”
rbi is clearly the best statistic to use when evaluating a player.
are you effing kidding me? a-rod’s career line: .308/.389/.593(?!), 44 HR. .324 career EqA. these are ungodly numbers, sir, and he’s done most of it while playing shortstop. and as for clutch, there has never been any evidence supporting the existence of a clutch hitter.
No, RBI’s aren’t the best stat to use to measure 2 players. Where did you hear that? But it’s certainly a good indication of production.
And here is one of the best stats to use — OPS+ — and here are their career numbers:
Manny – 154
A-Rod – 147
Once again, A-Rod comes up short in comparison to Manny. Yet he expects to be paid like he’s the best player in the game.
As for clutchness, it’s not true there is no evidence supporting the existence of clutchness. What may be true is that here does not exist a generally accepted way to measure clutchness.
But ask most baseball fans, especially those who watch the postseason, who is more clutch. I bet an overwhelming majority would say Manny.
I’d easily take Vlad over both of them.
vlad will undeniably be one of the top 10 hitters for average, OPS, runs and RBI. He’s also a great force on defense.
lol, yeah. vlad can’t even play the outfield anymore, buddy. he’s definitely worth it.
vcarver, what do you use to measure clutch? your eyes? i’d LOVE to know. there is no SCIENTIFIC evidence supporting the existence of clutch. people think david ortiz is so clutch, but if he hits .300 w/ risp and 2 outs (or whatever terrible stat you use to measure clutch), that means he fails 70 percent of the time! it’s amazing how people completely forget about the monumental failures of a player because of a few key hits. ugh
metsftw, it all depends how one defines clutch. Clearly BA w-RISP in April is mostly meaningless. But it’s not if it’s in September when your team is in a pennant race … and it’s not in the postseason.
Players like Ortiz and Jeter are clutch because they come through in high leverage situations more often than the majority of players put in similar spots. A-Rod is not clutch.
Yes, there is “scientific evidence” showing these players are clutch and A-Rod is not. We have eyewitnesses, lol, and videotape! And some stats.
Your example of David Ortiz makes no sense at all. Clutchness doesn’t mean you come through 100% of the time! That would be the definition of superman!
no, there really isn’t scientific evidence showing that a player is able to have the same “clutch” statistics. if i remember correctly, a guy working for BP went back through every player and only 2 guys had consistent “clutch” stats throughout their careers. one of them was paul molitor, and i can’t remember the other player’s name.
and “eyewitness” is almost the exact opposite of “scientific evidence” (that you put that in quotes says a lot, btw). it’s anecdotal, which is a poor way to do research. your eyes fool you constantly.
jeter and ortiz come through in high leverage situations because…they’re good hitters! not because they’re “clutch.” rule of thumb: a guy’s batting avg w/ risp, given enough at bats, will end up being pretty close to his actual batting average at the end of the season. good hitters will always come through more often than bad ones. has there ever been a “clutch” guy who hit .250? i don’t think so. the stats that you’re completely misunderstanding prove that clutch hitters don’t exist.
Yes, there is scientific evidence. Maybe it’s your terminology and how you’re using it that’s the issue (IOW, a matter of semantics) but facts are evidence. It’s a fact for example that Jeter’s OPS differential between the postseason and regular season is less than it is for most other players such as A-Rod. That’s a fact — evidence — that supports the theory that he is clutch. It’s also a fact that in big games throughout the season Jeter often has big impact moments or at least more clutch moments than many other players. For example, he’s got an abnormally high BA against the Mets in interleague games. These are all provable facts.
What exactly do you mean by “consistent clutch stats throughout their careers?” Can you be precise? What exactly was the study looking for? If they were simply comparing whether standard everyday situational stats vary from year to year, I don’t see how that would measure clutchness. IOW, I can’t see any logic in a study like that. So the problem is the design of their study — as I said before, how they define clutchness.
I disagree about eyewitnesses being a poor form of evidence. If someone says they saw Jeter hit a HR, then he hit a HR. That’s evidence. And it can be verified. There is tape of it. Sometimes pictures as well.
If Jeter and Ortiz come through in high leverage situations (games) only because they are good hitters, then all good hitters would come through in high leverage situations (games). Bonds rarely did. A-Rod doesn’t. So clearly your theory is wrong.
What does a hitter’s’ overall in-season BA w-RISP have to do with clutchness? I don’t think that’s a very good way to define clutchness which goes back to my view that that’s been the problem. How you define it (and a subsequent study). If you look to answer a question in the wrong way, well then of course you won’t find very good answers.
And I guess I didn’t make myself clear, but clutchness is more a matter of performance in high leverage games, not certain situations within just any game in a season. As I said, games in April are hardly indicative of clutchness no matter what’s done in what situation.
So clutchness exists. If you define it the way baseball fans generally understand it to be. Jeter is clutch. A-Rod isn’t.
VCarver normally I agree with your posts but in this case I cannot. When A-Rod was with Seattle he had fine post seasons in 1997 and 2000. He also had a fine ALDS for the Yankees in 2004. His recent problems have been the result of the unmerciful pressure Yankees fans have put on him in the post season.
I have watched my share of Yankees games and the Yankees would not have made the post season in 2005 and 2007 without him. His opting out of his contract has caused great anguish among Yankees fans that I know.
BTW Manny is a one dimensional player who has been helped immeasurably by playing left field in Fenway. A-Rod, OTOH, was an outstanding defensive SS who moved to third in a team move when A-Rod was by far the better defensive SS when compared to Jeter. A-Rod worked hard to make himself into a fine defensive 3rd baseman. A-Rod is one of the very best 5 tool players that ever played the game.
I
A-Rod’s time in Seattle represented a small sample size. And in 1997 he only had 1 RBI in 4 games. I would have to see more detailed game logs from that series in order to form an opinion as to whether or not he was clutch in that series.
It’s true that in his first year with the Yankees, he had a fairly good postseason (until the end). But I’m not sure if you can excuse his subsequent performancesbased on pressure from the fans. What about this year? Fans were generally on his side, no? He had a clean slate going into this postseason and ended up with just 1 RBI and a .267 BA. And the whole point of being clutch is being able to perform when the pressure is at its greatest, no matter what. Right? Let me ask you. If it’s game 7 of the WS, bottom of the 9th with your team down by a run and runners on 2nd and 3rd, 2 out, who would you want at the plate? Jeter, A-Rod, Manny or Ortiz. Could you rank them?
I have no disagreement about your points on the relative merits of Manny and A-Rod in terms of defense and tools. They are both talented offensive players and both have issues with makeup — though A-Rod’s may be be more detrimental to team chemistry. My point in this thread about Manny is that from a pure offensive standpoint, he’s actually had a better career than A-Rod. Yet A-Rod is asking to be paid like he’s the best player in the game. He may be now (given Manny’s age) but not by much.
A-Rod certainly could help, that’s for sure and no way, this money that is being discussed will keep A-ROD from becoming a free agent . If this is the Yankee offer, I think they need to get real. And if the Mets aren’t ready to offer the guy 10 years 370, then they need to get real, too. Anything over that, I could see maybe getting a bit exorbitant, but his is A-ROD. Additionally, Omar should figure out how to multitask and get us pitching, too. I personally think it might take more than 10 years 370 to get A-ROD, but the Mets should put that out there and just let Boras either get him more or come back to Omar on it, while Omar is busy looking for pitching. The Mets are made of money, mostly the money that the city, state and the fans are shelling out. If Wilpon just wants to run the team like a business and maximize profits with building a dynasty taking second place, then forget A-ROD. Maybe it will be enough for him to have his Ebbets Field back. The thing that really pisses me off is that I don’t see too many people associated with the Mets that bleed Orange and Blue. Here is where the true allegiances lie: Willie with the Yanks, Fred Wilpon with the Brooklyn Dodgers, Omar with Latin Baseball Nation (Not a slur, just the truth. He has frequently stated that as a boy, he rooted for Clemente, Marichal, etc. and that’s really cool, just his first allegiance has NEVER been to the NY Mets), Glavine with the Braves, etc. Even Keith Hernandez, who undoubtedly loves the Mets and has a zillion good memories of his time with the club, didn’t think twice about joining the Cards festivities. You folks saw the way Pedro cried on the mound at Fenway. A-ROD only has allegiance to money, hitting a thousand HR’s and winning a championship or 3. True allegiance seems to be hard to come by for our club in its history. If we can at least win a few more championships, we can at least build some awe and history, which could build future allegiances. The Mets certainly would have a better chance at a dynasty if they could sign A-ROD and not even consider that money, when looking for other pieces to the puzzle. Many want the Mets to be the anti-Yanks and not have an astronomical budget. I don’t care that much. I’d much rather see that than what we’ve had to endure since 86. I mean 88, 99, 2000 and even last year were real nice, but the rest of the years, including this year’s embarrassment are, to me, not worth some sort of “moral convictions” about not having a 180 million dollar payroll.
BS the Yankees won’t pursue him if he opts out. They are only saying that to keep the costs down. They will obviously bid on A-Rod if he goes to free agency. By saying they won’t, they are implying that no other team would bid as much as the $236M that they are offering now on the opening market. Its a smart move for them, but I’m surprised that no other ‘analyst’ has even considered this.
I honestly believe the Yankees won’t pursue him if he opts out. Sure it’s a threat, but IMO they have every intention to going through with it.. And I bet no other team is willing to exceed what the current rumored Yankees extension offer is. Everyone has seen how over the last 6-7 years, A-Rod hasn’t added up to championships or even increased revenues.
look –
Arod will be chasing Bonds for the HR title AND Pete Rose for the hits record over the next ten years. whats the value of that? ask San Fran./
Manny is a wildly productive talent. He makes 20 + mi a year but is a total head case. – wont shake hands with anyone and hides in his penthouse hotel suite. over the next three years hes going to be more and more pissed off that his 22 mil is undervalued as the Red SOx pick up their options and smile that me is underpaid at those rates
MLB revenues are growing like a weed and payrolls have to expand to compensate the talent. when arod signed for 250 mil it was outrageous but today its the price of doing business.,
THis is NY/ the largest market in the US – arguably the world. The Mets can afford 34 mil for Arod and putting the other assets in place.
Santana will get 25-30 mil a year when he comes on the mkt as a pitcher. Marginal players are getting 12-18 mil for average performance. these numbers sound outrageous but in a world where tom cruise gets 25 mil a pic plus the back end its life.
$25 mill – Johann
$30 mill – A-Rod
$17 mill – Beltran
$13 mil – Pedro
$11 mill – Wagner
$ 9 mill – Wright
$ 6 mill – Reyes
So that’s about $116 million spent on just 7 players if the Mets sign A-Rod and get Johan. Unless you want to fill out the rest of your team with just scrubs and rookies, you’re talking maybe an additional 50-60 million on player salaries, bringing the Mets payroll within 2 years to $170 or $180 million.
The Mets may be rich but they are not the Yankees who are trying to downsize themselves. Plenty of revenues are going toward the new Mets stadium. And baseball may be rich but that money is being evenly spread throughout the game via revenue sharing and the luxury tax. No one is going to want to pay A-Rod the enormous amount of money Boras is asking for. It chokes a team. A-Rod won’t get it. And certainly not from the Mets. Thanks god.
without quibbling over the names I think a 150 mil payroll is infinitely supportable in this market and for this team.
IN fact, given MLBs growth in revs and global popularity I wouldnt be surprised if at least 5 teams are at that level in 2 years.
The money is there. it really shouldnt be that much if an issue. In the grand scheme of things 34 mil for his entertainment and franchise value is well spent.
A-Rod + Johan is more like a payroll of $170 to $180 million for the Mets. Unless of course one wants to fill out the team with the likes of Park and Lawrence.
And there is the little problem of the luxury tax that people seem to forget about. It only goes up a few million every year. And only the Yankees are all too happy to pay a hefty tax. I highly doubt there will be many times exceeding $150 million in a few years when only 2 teams come close to it now.
not that Im debating the Mets get Arod and Santana right now. just that they seriously consider ARod today and that payrolls will expand in the near future to allow the flexibility to add additional talent in the near future
Santana MAY be a FA in 09 and the mets MAY have a shot if he isnt traded and resigns somewhere else. Under a Santana scenario if you want to play that game I dont think Pedro and his 13 mil is around at that point. nor is delgado and his 16
In terms payrolls. there are 7 teams over 100 mil right now and 14 the 30 teams are over 90 mil. where in 2000 the yanks were the highest at 95 mil (dodgers were second with 88 mil) and the median was 55 mil.
I could see the Yanks, Redsox, mets, whitesox, angels and Dodgers being in the 150 mil club in a few short years. with the mariners and cubs close behind.
in terms of the luxury tax here are the facts from MLB
2007 148m
2006 136.5
2005 128
2004 120.5
2003 117
it increases based on total revs fromMLB which as you can see from the numbers has been accellerating in growth over the past 5 years.
hardly just a few mil increase a year
just to carry the numbers out to “Santana – time”
2008 155
2009 162
2010 170
2011 178
at this point replacement players will be making 14 mil a year and the avg sal of a MLB player will be around 4 mil
Right, the luxury tax threshold increases not based on revenues but based on what the union and owners have previously agreed to in the CBA. It’s set years before. And the fact is since the inception of the tax, only the Yankees have been willing to exceed the luxury tax every year. The Red Sox, Angels and Mets, teams that may have had tiny LT bills once or twice in the past, try to avoid it like the plague.
Even with the threshold at 162 mill in 2009, the Mets would be hard-pressed to carry both A-Rod and Santana on their payroll and not go over the tax. They would probably be wiling to carry one or the other but not both. And I’d much rather it be Santana. Or to use that money for other pitching if they can’t get Santana.
But the agreement is based on revenues..
Given the mets competitive market position in NY, a clear emphasis on the Hispanic demographic, a new stadium and a regional sports net in the largest mkt in the country I really don’t think A Rod will stop the team from improving in the near future.
IF Santana is available at that time there is clearly enough room to add a (then) 30 year old arm that may be the top pitcher available for big money.
No, the luxury tax thresholds are set years in advance by the parties to the CBA. Regardless of revenues next year or the year after, the threshold will not change for 2009 – 2011 from what is already specified in the latest agreement. Yes, they anticipate additional revenues, but it’s only a projection.
The Mets have had all those things more or less for the last few years and they’re still on a budget and avoid the luxury tax. There’s no reason to think all of a sudden they’re going to be turning into the spendthrift Yankees and thumb their noses at the luxury tax.
There is no room to add both Santana and A-Rod if they want to maintain a reasonable budget and stay under the luxury tax as well as avoid the Parks and Lawrences to fill out the rest of the team.
I for one, despise the Yankees as a mercenary team that tries to buy championships every year and whose fans are full of entitlement.
Apparently, several Met fans are no different.
I do not want a bloated mercenary team, even if I thought the Wilpons would contemplate it for a second. Blanton’s similarity scores rank with the likes of Scott Bankhead, and people talk about trading potential All-Stars like Milledge for him.
“Screw potential”, they say. “We need a sure thing!” ARod and Santana. Milledge will bust! His OPS+ was only 105 at age 22 for crying out loud! Gomez? Hell, he had a bad year when he was 21! He’s obviously a bust! Pinch hitter at best! Martinez? He’s two damn years away! Trade him for someone who can help us win now! It’ll only cost us an additional $80M! I want a ring now! We’re the Mets! We’re a big market team! We should win every year!
Spare me.
you’d rather have a team of crappy players that “plays hard” rather than 9 a-rods, wouldn’t you?
I said exctly what I said; no more and no less. I don’t care for scrappy, unless it involves scrapping Paul LoDuca.
My post was about impatient Mets fans and Yankee wannabes. The Mets have tried to win by free agency for 20 years and it has gotten them nowhere. The solution of many Met fans: try to keep winning by free agency.
I would rather spend ‘08 watching Pelfrey/Humber/Muniz/Milz/Gomez (when Alou gets hurt) develop than trading away these guys for people who will grant us the privelidge of being massacred by the Red Sox in ‘08 if we’re lucky. You guys are being impatient. It is I who am being greedy.
Greedy is when you win year in and year out and yet ask for more. That has not been the scenario we Mets fans have seen over the years. Since the present roster contains a number of free agents I suggest you root for KC and enjoy your moral victories.
My definition of a spend thrift – which applies to the yanks – is spending wildly more (50% more in this case) than the next highest MLB payroll without regard to budget .. this is not what i would advocate and Im sure you would not as well./
Spending at or near the league luxury tax threshold and perhaps equal to the top quarter (7/30) of the league is what i would see as practical given the economics of the market and not within what i would define as a spendthrift budget. — not sure.. maybe you want to maintain a 100 mil payroll like what is now 1/2 the league
Ive shown clear facts that the lux level in 09 -10 will be around 160 – 170 mil .. this would be my definition of a reasonable budget in that time frame.
Ive certainly given points that the NY market – and the mets circumstances can support this level of budget.
If you prefer to advocate waiting around until MAYBE the top pitcher is available in 2009 and maybe will sign in NY then thats fine .. i would disagree with that strategy
I would prefer to make a play for a player that WILL BE reasonably priced in the NEAR future based on the economics of baseball and the current market in which we play and his anticipated production (Home runs, RBI, OPS, record chasing, media hype)
You are certainly with in your rights to hope that Moises ALou and Luis Castillo can keep their broken bodies together for next year and maybe player A, B or C will morph into the next superstar and maybe the mets will win 90 games next year and limp into the playoffs — or maybe 3 or 4 other teams will pass the mets and we’ll be sitting around on OCt 28th of next year HOPING the WS ends and we can start dreaming about the next player that will be available in 2010 or 2011.
everyone is entitled to their opinions and dreams.. cheers ..happy dreaming
“MAYBE” Milledge comes through. Milledge is at age 22, nearly as good as Manny was at 22. But maybe he’ll collapse. We need a sure thing!
You forget that for every Maybe involving the failure of our prospects there is a maybe he will succeed and a maybe our ace will opt for free agency next year anyway or get hurt and we lost our prospect for nothing.
The Mets chances in ‘08 are IMO not good enough even with some of these trades and acquisitions. Also, team salaries tend to rise with the market even without signings as inflation catches up with all of the team’s contracts. Major acquisitions lose us picks and inflate our salaries according to the markets.
I am perfectly happy to forgo ‘08 and wait for our deadweight (Delgado, Pedro, Alou) to expire and then start thinking about guys like Carmona and Tex and Santana. To think that not one of the Cy Young Caliber pitchers will be available in ‘09 is simply paranoid. It’s panic mode thinking. The Mets blew the playoffs this year one month ago. It’s time for panic and anger to subside and for thought to take over.
You know what scares me about the Red Sox? What scares me is Pedroia, Ellsbury, Papelbaum, and Buckholtz for the next 12 years, and who knows who else after that? Manny at age 35 does not scare me. Schilling at age 41 makes my day. DiceK does not scare me. And Becket and Ortiz would not scare me if they were isolated threats. They aren’t. They will be backed up by numerous young lions that came from their farm and were given time and patience.
By the way, Buckholtz was acquired by the Sox as a compensation pick for…Pedro Martinez. How’s that looking in ‘09?
Agree with a lot of what you say, joe, except that if I were an opposing team in the playoffs, Beckett would scare the bejesus out of me. All by his little itty bitty self!
Point taken.
[...] Cohan wrote an interesting post today on Buzz: Five-Year Extension for Alex RodriguezHere’s a quick [...]
The Yanks have the luxury of being able to pay A-Rod more than anyone else because the Rangers will pick up so much of their Tab. If I were ARod, I’d take the Yankees offer, since it probably represents the market value plus Yankee money plus split contract luxury. I think that particularly with the Zito debacle, the jig is up with Boras.
Exactly. Probably only the Yankees can afford to pay him that money because foolish Hicks still foots part of the bill.
A-Rod at $25+ million a year for ages 32 to 40 when he isn’t clutch and when he hasn’t proven to be a big attendance draw would probably be classified as wild spending by roughly 28 of the 30 teams in MLB. For these teams taking on a contract like that, then I would certainly characterize it as wild spending.
Spending near the tax threshold but not exceeding it I think is very reasonable. But as I said, there is no way the Mets can remain under the threshold and take on both A-Rod and Santana, plus fill other holes on the team with quality players as well. Do you have any idea what their current luxury tax payroll is now? FYI, it’s much higher than their actual 2007 payroll is.
What the Mets can actually support in terms of a budget none of us really know. You don’t know nor do I. But clearly their philosophy since the luxury tax was implemented has always been to keep below it, and the Wilpons voted for the luxury tax when it was first passed. They support the concept of an equal playing field. So whether or not it’s financially feasible is almost irrelevant given their beliefs about team spending.
And no, I don’t advocate Omar and Fred waiting around sitting on their butts till Johan is available. There are other ways to improve a team than just overpaying for A-Rod.
If you think A-Rod is reasonably priced at what he’s asking for we will have to agree to disagree. I don’t even think he’s worth the $25 mill he gets now. Hell, Beltran had a better year last year than A-Rod did (OPS+) and he made $8 million less!
In terms of anticipated production in the future, unless A-Rod turns heavily to PEDs like Bonds did, chances are his production goes down significantly within a few years and tails off to a fraction of what it is now by the time he’s 40. By that time his contract not only won’t be reasonably priced, it might be a total joke.
As for Alou, I hope they don’t bring him back. As I said, there are plenty of other ways to improve the team besides A-Rod. I don’t consider Alou one of them. And I don’t mind going with some kids from the farm. I prefer to build from within. It sure beats rooting for “bored” vets or those who are too self-absorbed to understand and value the concept of good sportsmanship and team play. And it’s not as if A-Rod is a team’s ticket to the World Series. How’s he doing in that department?
good logic. only truly good players make it to the world series and beyond that, the truly GREAT players win them. guys like scott brosius, who are clearly 100x better than alex rodriguez, (who will go down as one of the best baseball players ever) because they won a world series.
also, dan marino was a terrible qb because he never won a super bowl.
What’s the point of paying someone $30+ million if he isn’t a difference maker in terms of winning a championship?
You know who is a difference maker? Josh Beckett. Ortiz. Manny. Rivera. A-Rod clearly is not.
the yankees don’t make the postseason without a-rod. is that big enough of a difference for you?
and LOL at a CLOSER being the difference in a championship team. eric gagne, during his stretch of being the best relief pitcher in baseball, was worth about 3 wins to the dodgers over the course of the season. the idea of a closer is stupid, and hopefully will be phased out in baseball in the near future.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2603
The Yankees were horrid and under .500 when A-Rod was raking. Then when they played their best, A-Rod had cooled down. They only started to play well when they weeded out some of their poorer players and pitchers and brought the kids up. The record really doesn’t support your statement.
You could say the Yankees don’t get to the postseason this year without Posada, Wang, Chamberlain, Rivera, or Jeter.
The Yankees did much better in the postseason before A-Rod came aboard. Since that time it’s been quick exits every year.
And if you don’t think Rivera was the biggest single impact player contributing to the Yankees’ four championships then I don’t think you’re been paying attention to baseball very much. Just because 1 reliever has not been an impact player why does it invalidate other relievers? That makes no sense at all.
As for the idea of a closer being stupid, it sounds like you’re just parroting Bill James’ position. As I’ve mentioned here before on Metsblog, no one finds much value in that view, ironically not even the team that employs him.
Alou has been an all around positive force on the ball club. Taking his relatively cheap option would help our offense dearly, as it did last year. If Moises is healthy, great. We have a great hiter to be a #5 hitter. Should he get injured, we can afford it. It would also give Gomez some valuable starting time.
Milledge can have right field. The supporting role can go to Chavez.
There are alternatives for the outfield in the free agency, the best one being Adam Dunn, however the Reds will probably take his option.
Milton Bradley is like a young, more shaky Moises Alou who will cost more years and money.
Bobby Abreu is very average. Plus he’s costly and the Yankees will probably take his option.
Hunter, Patterson, and Rowand are all sub-par hitters who will be overpriced, and probably won’t accept the position of rigt field without a large “bribe”
Andruw Jones and Mike Cameron are streaky hitters who are expensive and probably won’t take the right field job
bobby abreu is “average” based on what stat? .300/.408/.500, 134 career OPS+ (career line) is very much above average. you all need to stop talking out of your asses and look this stuff up. it takes 30 seconds.
You wrote:
Hell, Beltran had a better year last year than A-Rod did (OPS+) and he made $8 million less!
good grief.. that does it.. Im done. talk about cherry picking
2006 was Arod’s worst year in 12 years and 2006 was Beltrans BEST year of his career. 13 mil for Beltran is wildly undervalued in TODAYS market.. considering what other players are getting in THE MARKET and their skill level
Im all for rational spending within the context of a budget in TODAYS market. not a market of 5 years ago. Today when players like Eric Byrnes can get 10 mil a year thats not insanity.. Thats the MARKET.
It seems you are more against Arod for some reason and pro santana than anti spending..
You advocate Santana .. Well.. guess what.. he’s going to cost 30 mil a year in 2009 .. you ready to lay that out for a 30 year old pitcher?
No one has ANY REASON to believe ARod is a PED head.. He hit 36 HRs in his 20 year old season with Seattle. He has none of the “symptoms” of a Bonds or Canseco.
THe man is an absolute physical FREAK OF NATURE> Over the next 10 years he WILL blow away Bond’s HR Record and most probably challenge Rose’s Hit record.. He had the best year of ANY PLAYER since MICKEY MANTLE. He has NEVER been injured beyond a twisted ankle. He’s NOT a clubhouse cancer and is very amicable to everyone around him. Hes a little bit of a coddled immature baby but he’s performed well under the lights of NY and there’s no reason to assume hes going to fall off a bridge over the next 5-8 years.
I Agree whole heartedly with every assertion in the Daily NEWS article today (from which this thread originated) on why making a strong move for ARod is the right thing to do TODAY to help the METS THIS YEAR.
The market will bear what the market will bear.
thats all..
The MARKET is what someone is actually willing to pay him. A-Rod, his agent, fans,etc. can think he is worth whatever they want. If no one is willing to pay that then,from an economic standpoint, it is NOT the market.
Now, I’m not saying that someone WON’T pay him 30 million a year just that until that offer stands(since NO ONE else is making that) then there is no MARKET dictating anything. If all 30 teams decided to only offer him $5 million a year he can make all the arguments he wants about what other players are making and the MARKET but that is all irrelevant because, THE MARKET IS WHAT SOMEONE IS WILLING TO PAY HIM.
You know, just like the stock market you can think your shares should cost X but if someone is only willing to pay you Y than Y is the market value.
um, if people are willing to pay eric byrnes 10 million a year, that means there is a market for a far superior player (like arod) to make 30 million a year.
They were basing the contract off his one good season. If A rod did much better than byrnes, but not 3x times as well, more like 6x if you count the years
No..that means at THAT time there was a market for Eric Byrnes at that price. My point is not about what A-Rod deserves or what Eric Byrnes deserves but about the way a free economic market works.
it’s pretty safe to say that a-rod is 3 times the player eric byrnes is.
If no one offers him more than 5 mil.. thats COLLUSION and against the law not a MARKET.
The yanks have expressed – thru the press- that they’ll pay 29 mil a year. which is up from the 27 he would otherwise make by continuing on with his contract ov er the next three years.
Im no big Boras or Arod fan but facts are facts. And the Price article makes some solid points as to his value to a franchise in general and specifically the NYM.
Hypothetically.. It is not a MARKET of one team after he opts out.
The Cubs, Angels, Tigers and even the Marlins can make an economic and baseball case to add him.. Id think the Dodgers, Red Sox and Phillies can also make a case to be interested in him.
Its not just the guy hitting 50 HRs and slugging 1000
The guy will be a major record breaker over the next decade and having that attached to your franchise is immeasurable in terms of value.
Who cares if he digs bulky bleached blonde strippers. the owners should send him three to his hotel room.
The guy his going to get his money whether you agree to it or not… Id rather have him on MY team than any other over the next decade. 30 mil is the starting bid and I think it’ll end up being over prety fast so he doesnt make it look like a TOTAL money grab
Um…How is that collusion? You have to be able to prove that all of the owners got together and actually made a decision to not offer him more than that. You can’t just say COLLUSION because you think he is worth more.
you said
If all 30 teams decided to only offer him $5 million a year he can make all the arguments he wants about what other players are making and the MARKET but that is all irrelevant because, THE MARKET IS WHAT SOMEONE IS WILLING TO PAY HIM.
that is COLLUSION
You took me waaaay to literally. My point was if every team that was making him an offer independently decided to offer him no more than 5 million, NOT if they all got together and decided. I didn’t think I needed to actually spell that out. Obviously, I wasn’t suggesting collusion.
There are plenty of players who never get offered more than x amonut of money, they don’t get to cry COLLUSION just because no one is paying them what THEY think they should be paid.
Actually I think I ws pretty clear…I never said if all 30 teams GOT TOGETHER…
its a silly supposition that all thirty teams would independantly decided to give Arod less than teams routinely pay for a fourth outfielder or 1/2 a back of the rotations tarter
not to make this an Eric Byrnes thread.,. But the D Backs were basing it off his value to the franchise and what they would pay to replace him.
In this MARKET 10 million dollar outfielders dont even break the top 50 highest paid players
a-rod’s value to a franchise is much, much more than $30 million.
That’s a rather bald counterfactual assertion, considering we have a 2nd baseman and a 3rd baseman.
First of all, you guys who assume Santana is going to be available as a FA in 09′, are smoking cr@#k!! If a team trades for him this offseason, you know they will give him a huge extension just simply because they will have to give up a pile of talent to get him! And therefore are not going to let him walk away as a free agent! Second, i would give an everyday player superstar(AROD) 30 million a year way quicker than i would give a top starter the same money! Pitchers are at a much higher risk of injury than a position player! Give AROD his damn money Fred Coupons and let him fulfill his dream of playing for his childhood team the ” NEW YORK METS”. that is what AROD really wants.
The team that trades for Johan has no say in whether or not he’ll sign with them. It’s up to him and if he says no, then it’s no. He’s not going to sign with just anyone just because of the money. He’s not like A-Rod.
I think there’s a better than 80% chance he’ll be a FA roughly a year from now.
Indeed, if Santana is traded, the team that trades for him is under the same budgetary constraints as anyone else in the league. There is no reason why the team that trades for him will be able to give him a contract extension more lucrative than the deal the Mets (or any other team) can give him. Santana and his agent are well aware of this. They are also aware that he is recognized as the best pitcher in the league and once the Twins (or whomever else) make an offer, they can use that as the start of the bidding war.
If the Mets don’t tie themselves up with ARod (and with that, I would include expensive mediocrities of ‘08 like Paul LoDuca) they will be in the best position to land a Santana and possibly a Teixeira, who is younger, cheaper, and will actually fill a position of need.
It’s highly arguable whether A-Rod is worth $30 million to any franchise. No one can show any good evidence of it. It’s a lot of Boras-speak.
ive made that argument all day and Price from the DN has too
Whats your argument that Santana WONT get 30 MIL?
any team that gives 30 million/yr for 8 years to any pitcher is nuts period!! the mets already have a policy to not give more than 5 years to pitchers anyway! And pitchers are much harder to keep healthy year after year this is a fact!
Uh, I was talking about A-Rod, not Santana. And I wasn’t predicting what he would get in my post. I was replying to someone who said A-Rod’s value to a franchise is worth more than $30 million. There is no evidence of that.
And I don’t think anyone in this thread has given any factual information that would support that claim. It’s just Boras-speak.
there’s no evidence of that? you don’t know much about the business side either, apprently. let’s see, without a-rod, the yankees don’t make the postseason this year. his WARP3 was 13.7! all the ticket revenue (the yanks are an exception, they sell out games just because they’re the yankees, same with the cubs) he’d bring in would be crazy. the sales of a-rod jerseys, shirts, hats, bobbleheads, whatever merchandise you can think of would be insane. the additional concession revenue (because of higher attendance) would also be fantastic. and when your team makes the playoffs because of a 10+ game improvement in record because of a-rod, you get even more income from playoff ticket sales, concessions, merchandise, etc.
a-rod would more than pay for himself. he’s worth more than 30 million.
And you’re the one talking about scientific evidence, lol? Of course there’s no evidence of A-Rod’s value being what you claim it is. The Yankees don’t make the postseason without Rivera, Jeter, Posada,
Wang, or Chamberlain either!
Some seem to forget that when A-Rod was hitting the best this year, the Yankees were awful. Under .500. Then when they took off — after they called up the kids from the farm — A-Rods bat cooled off. Before A-Rod became a Yankee they used to do better in the postseason than they do now. Now it’s just quick embarrassing exits.
You must really have your blinders on or you are in denial because the Rangers’ attendance never went up significantly when A-Rod was there, despite the fact those were the best years of his career. He’s never done much for road attendance either. He just doesn’t sell tickets and maybe it’s because he’s got a reputation among baseball fans for being a self-absorbed unsportsmanlike player. So the lack of an attendance bump IS evidence. That’s a fact. But there are no facts to support your position. Only wishful thinking.
there are currently two corner outfield spots that can use a player of DW or ARods skills
I dont think 2B is an option .
Oops. I meant 3rd base and short.
If we do get ARod, the thing to do would probably be put him at 2b. Wright is more valuable at 3rd.
2 corner outfield spots? Wow. Does Lastings Milledge even exist in “Get Arod land”? Has anyone considered why Bean might take a Milledge package? Could it be that he is trying to fleece us and that Mets fans are taking the bait?
beane and epstein are the smartest GM’s in the league. if you do a trade with them, you’re likely getting fleeced. how badly you’re getting fleeced is the variable.
I never said CB was a better player than ARod. Just that he can put up a better year at roughly $8 million less. (He makes $17 million, not $13). So there goes your theory about him being reasonably priced because if you look at his production vs. CB’s (their entire careers) and prorate it according to salary, CB is the better bargain.
Hey, we’re both for rational spending within a budget. We just can’t agree on whether Arod at more than $25 million is rational or not. It’s not, IMO. And that’s why I’m against signing him. He’s overpaid, will demand too many years, he’s not clutch, not an impact player in terms of getting a team a WS win, and he has a poor reputation as a team player and a competitor.
As for Santana, guess what? You don’t really know what he’s going to cost. Neither do I. But he’s certainly not asking anywhere near ARod money, so stop throwing that figure out. I bet he doesn’t get more than about $25 million a year.
I never said ARod did PEDs. I said if he wants to do what Bonds did then he’d probably have to do them. Because Bonds wouldn’t have been Bonds without juicing.
continued …
2006 was NOT ARod’s worse year. 2004, 2003, and 1999 could all be considered worse.
ARod had the best season of any player since Mickey Mantle? What criteria are you using? Because there are other players such as Howard and Pujols who have had years with better stats such as RC, OPS, RBIs, and RC/G.
moreover …
And, yes, there is a reason to think he’ll fall off a bridge before his next contract ends. It’s called AGE. It happens to all of them. No one is immune. Again, unless you cheat.
The author of that daily news article is a blathering fool. I don’t even think he covers baseball which would explain why he knows squat. At least we can agree on this: the market will bear what it will bear. And I predict it will not bear what ARod and his slimy handler thinks he’s worth. They’re in for a rude awakening if they really think they can get what they are asking for.
its all picking nits.. Arods worst year is still Hall of fame ##s
Compare stats to stats. (Avg, HR, RBI, Runs). the DN and post did
It’s stats. How are you going to show that A-Rod had the best season since Mantle if you don’t use stats? Using stats, other players have had better years.
Either you didn’t mean what you said or you’re just saying whatever comes to mind at the moment without any regard for whether it’s true or not.
the guy hit 314 with 54 HR, 156 RBI and 143 Run scored
in 1961 Mantle hit 317 with 54 HR, 128 RBI and 132 RS a
Show me another non juiced player since then who put up those numbers and tell me what you’d pay to get them on your team today
its off topic but Bonds without juice was still a top 10 player ever.
Whoever made that claim is doing a bad impersonation of Scott Boras.
In ‘99 Manny hit 44 HRs, had 165 RBIs, and a .333 BA.. 2 out of the 3 stats you gave for A-Rod, manny was better. And why are you using runs? That’s to a large extent a team stat. Like wins for a pitcher.
And if you’re going to use HRs, RBIs, and BA as your criteria, then Howard last year had a better year than Mantle so why the heck are you even bringing up Mantle’s name?
Maybe if you said A-Rod had the best single season since Howard you might have had a point, lol.
Oh, as for what I’d pay a Manny or A-Rod or Texeira or someone like that? If all were on the market right now, I’d give Manny maybe $20 mill a year for 3 years … A-Rod $24 mill a year for 5 years, and Texeira maybe $20 mill a year for 7 years.
um, if you’re discounting runs, then you better discount RBIs. and why is batting average being discussed? a-rod isn’t paid to hit for average. he does, but we all know he gets paid to slug almost .600 every year (oh, and play some damn good defense…guy was a pretty good SS…better than jeter…shows what a “team player” jeter is)
Why? RBIs to a greater extent are dependent on the individual player, but runs scored are more dependent on what the players do who come after you in the lineup. And Yankee teams have always been stacked. Yankee players are always going to score a lot of runs. And I didn’t bring up these stats. The poster who I was replying to used them as a measure to try to support a point. So I used them to disprove the point.. They were not my choice. You need to read more carefully.
As for defense, A-Rod right now isn’t a very good defensive player. Wright has had a better ZR than him the last two years. His balls fielded out of zone are also higher than they are for A-Rod.
rbi’s are dependent on people getting on base in front of you, no?
a-rod is above average, which is more than can be said for your boy jeter.
Your boy is a middle of the lineup hitter. Most teams will have good OBP guys hitting in front of 3-4-5 hitters. So they will roughly get an equal number of chances to drive in runners throughout the year. What has always dinstinguished Yankee lineups is the strength of their hitters in the 7-8-9 holes. For chirstsakes they had Matsui and Posada hitting there at times. So, if you’re hitting in the middle of their lineup you probably have a better than average chance of scoring if you get on base, but only an average chance to drive in runners.
Besides, as I said, I was only using that stat in reply to the other poster. I did not initially bring it up.
Yes, A-Rod is above average for a hitter. But Jeter is well above average when it comes to makeup — which is more than can be said of your boy A-Rod.
so in 2003 when he hit298 and 47 HR and 126 RBI was his worst year.. Ill take that and so would any other player in the HOF
You must be joking. His HR totals were totally inflated during his time in Texas. Anyone who doesn’t realize that park factors play a big role in offensive numbers from that park doesn’t understand the game very well. And despite this, he had less RBIs than in 2006.
You could put him in Yosemite park and he’d still average 40 HR a year.
40 HRs is one thing. 47-57 HRs a year like he did in Texas is another. And he won’t be averaging 40 HRs a year over the course of his next contract — unless the Phllies sign him or he goes back to the Rangers, lol.
you’r right..
he only led the LEAGUE in Home runs in 2003 and led the TEAM in HRs when juiced up Rafael palmiero hit 38 that year for texas.
and he hit almost 20% of the HRs for the Rangers that year
that year was horrible. .. i dont want thoise skills on my team– regardless of the “park factor”
Who said it was horrible? Stop trying to change the topic. The question was what could normally be expected of A-Rod now and in the future in terms of HRs. He doesn’t play in Texas anymore.
and manny played in the jake and boston, two hittters parks. what is your point?
The Jake and Boston were not nearly the hittesr parks that Arlington was when A-Rod played there. My point is that his stats were largely inflated by the park.
i thought your point was 2003 was his worst year as a ball player .. yet you’ve given no supporting stats.. so that argument is done.
Read again. I did not say 2003 was his “worst” year. I said it could be considered worse than 2006. And it could because he had fewer RBIs, a measure that you yourself are using to judge a player’s year.
“The Jake and Boston were not nearly the hittesr [sic] parks that Arlington was when A-Rod played there. My point is that his stats were largely inflated by the park.”
WRONG. It feels good to say that because you are the insufferable person who delights in telling others they are wrong (and when VCarver is wrong he just makes sure he gets the last post so he can pretend he “won”). Couldn’t find park factors for the Jake from the 90s (when Manny played there) but here goes:
2001:
Jacobs Field: 1 (1.584 Runs)
Fenway Park (Boston, Massachusetts): 14 (1.015 Runs)
Rangers Ballpark (Arlington, Texas):15 (0.997 Runs)
2002:
Rangers Ballpark (Arlington, Texas):5 (1.246 Runs)
Jacobs Field (Cleveland, Ohio): 11 (1.031 Runs)
Fenway Park (Boston, Massachusetts): 15 (0.966 Runs)
2003:
Fenway Park (Boston, Massachusetts): 3 (1.296 Runs)
Rangers Ballpark (Arlington, Texas): 5 (1.216 Runs)
Jacobs Field (Cleveland, Ohio): 27 (0.853 Runs)
So your statement that Fenway and Jacobs Field are “not nearly the hitters parks that Arlington was when A-Rod played there was clearly in error. Indeed, one could actually argue that Fenway has been a better hitters park: it was the number one park in 2007 (Arlington was 18), although it was lower than Arlington in 2004-2006 (but A-Rod was in NY by then). Anyways, the point is that they are both hitters parks and that your statement might have been accurate if you said that Fenway and Arlington are comparable parks. It is obvious that Manny has benefited from Fenway just as much, if not more than A-Rod benefited from Arlington. Also, Fenway played as more of a hitter’s park than Yankee stadium in 2004, 2006, and 2007. I’m sure you’ll find a way to argue with this, though.
WRONG. It feels good to say that because you are the insufferable person who delights in telling others they are wrong (and when VCarver is wrong he just makes sure he gets the last post so he can pretend he “won”).
Uh, no. Of course you are wrong. I remember you from a previous discussion recently where you were making things up about previous discussions and simply flat out lied about my previous posts.
At any rate, for the park factors, I used the stats at baseball-reference.com. They are the most reliable ones around, I feel. You can check them out yourself. What they show is that in 2 of the 3 years that A-Rod was in Texas, it was a significantly better hitters park than Fenway –
Park Factors for Hitters
2001 – TX 97, Bos 102
2002 – TX 110, Bos 100
2003 – TX 110, Bos 106
In addition, Jacobs had a lower park factor for hitters during 2 of those 3 years as well (100, 100, 93). It is interesting to note that out of the last 10 years, Arlington has had a higherpark factor for hitters than Jacobs in 7 out of those years. And for the last 10 years, Arlington has had a higher hitters park factor than Fenway for 7 out of those years.
You are clearly wrong in your post.
So sorry to disappoint you. It appears from your post that you live to try to show me up. Not only have you failed, but that’s a sad existence and it really reflects poorly on the type of person you are. I hope you’ll look for something more constructive to bring meaning to your day.
Have a nice day.
“So sorry to disappoint you. It appears from your post that you live to try to show me up. Not only have you failed, but that’s a sad existence and it really reflects poorly on the type of person you are. I hope you’ll look for something more constructive to bring meaning to your day.
Have a nice day.”
Dude, I made you look silly. I never made anything up. You called me a liar about the number of games that were computed in a statistic for A-Rod’s ALCS average. I then provided you a link. You shut up after that. You are without a doubt the most confrontational, smug poster I have ever encountered in any forum. You hate to lose, so you make sure you have the last word. You make up ridiculous theories to try to explain your stupid ideas about clutch. Face it, you are a joke.
Also, thanks for the stats on Jacobs Field from the last 10 years, which you didn’t cite. When was the last time Manny played there again? I thought so. It is quote obvious to anyone with critical thinking skills that even if you didn’t pull your metrics out of your ass (I got mine from ESPN) that Arlington and Fenway are comparable hitters parks. Mine showed that Fenway was more so than Arlington. It is also obvious to anyone with eyes that Manny benefits immeasurably from right field at Fenway, while ARod’s right field dimensions are not as good. Finally, what about the Kngdome versus Jacobs Field?
Another source showing how you are wrong:
2000 Park Factors
TEAM
Rhoid runs park adjustment factor
Anaheim 0.97065
Baltimore 1.03853
Boston 0.99095
Chicago White Sox 0.96613
Cleveland 0.97488
Detroit 1.02054
Kansas City 0.94925
Minnesota 0.96378
New York Yankees 0.97882
Oakland 1.05472
Seattle 1.09843
Tampa Bay 0.99877
Texas 0.95552
I’m sorry you suck at life, but keep trying buddy.
by the way, I realize you said you got them from baseball reference, but a link would be nice. Mine was from:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor
AND
http://64.21.65.46/rhoids2000/methodsPAfactors.htm
Never mind. Found your stats. Essentially, what this tells me is that they are basically comparable hitters parks (making your claim that Fenway is not nearly the hitters park that Arlington is WRONG) and that different metrics will say one or the other. But I am sure you will disagree as is your wont.
Interestingly from baseball reference as well:
Seattle Park factors
2000: 95/93
1999:102/103
1998: 99/99
1998: 98/98
1997:100/99
Jacobs Field Park factors:
2000: 101/100
1999: 104/103
1998: 103/102
1997: 103/102
1996: 99/98
VCarver: I say this for your own good because I know you will get the last word. You are sad. You make indenfensible or unsupported claims or critiques of other posters. Then you get your kicks trying to make them look bad. But I think most people who have been visiting these boards for long enough can see that you are a childish person who cares little about/knows nothing of social nicities. Whatever, have fun posting your usual last word.
I never made anything up. You called me a liar about the number of games that were computed in a statistic for A-Rod’s ALCS average. I then provided you a link. You shut up after that.
Fiction. Provide a link on that. You can’t. Because you made that up as well. I called you a liar about other things. About your claims concerning prior run-ins. Which never happened as you imagined they did. So if you have a claim to make about a previous debate, post a link. Talk is cheap. Especially yours.
You’re a bald-faced liar and I stand by that. You’re a dismal excuse for a human being.
Also, thanks for the stats on Jacobs Field from the last 10 years, which you didn’t cite. When was the last time Manny played there again? … but a link would be nice.
Thanks for proving my point about just how clueless, dishonest and desperate you are. You spend so much of your time ranting about how I didn’t cite a source but In my post that you are replying to I said and I quote: “I used the stats at baseball-reference.com.”
Don’t let the facts get in the way of your irrational rant! You really are hopeless.
Further, Jacobs field was cited in my original post, genius. That is one of the fields in question. The reason I cited a 10 year sample — for all the parks referenced in my original post — was for sample size. But being so clueless, I doubt you understand that concept.
It is quote obvious to anyone with critical thinking skills that even if you didn’t pull your metrics out of your ass (I got mine from ESPN) that Arlington and Fenway are comparable hitters parks.
No, they are not according to the source I gave. In 2 of the 3 years in question, Arlington was much more of a hitters park. And over the 10-year period I cited, in 7 out of those years Arlington was a much better hitters park than either the Jake or Fenway.
It is also obvious to anyone with eyes that Manny benefits immeasurably from right field at Fenway, while ARod’s right field dimensions are not as good. Finally, what about the Kngdome versus Jacobs Field?
I see. The only way you can make a valid point is to expand the discussion to areas that weren’t mentioned in my original post that you initially took issue with! . The years in question and which my original claim encompassed were 2001 to 2003. Not years played at Yankee Stadium. Not years played at the Kingdome. Stay on point. Is that so hard for you to do? Obviously it is.
Another source showing how you are wrong:
LOL, that’s rich. You give park factors for just one year (2000) from another source, and it isn’t even one of the years in question? Wow. Can you make any less sense?.
you make indenfensible or unsupported claims or critiques of other posters.
I have supported my initial claim on park factors for the years 2001-2003 with hard stats. Immutable facts. And, yes, with a URL too! I always try to do that and if I don’t have facts to support my position I say so. But if you like to imagine otherwise, I can’t control that.
I made you look like a clown here.. Maybe in the future if you back up your wilder fantasies with links and facts and took a more logical approach to your posts instead of just letting loose with an extremely weak emotional rant you wouldn’t look so foolish.
You’re obviously out of your league and I feel sorry for you. I really do hope for your sake you find a more constructive and fulfilling way to live your life instead of chasing down and wasting time on personal vendettas.
Have a nice day.
Betran made 13 in 06 (the year you were looking at) copared to Arods 22 that year and 17 last year vs Arods 25. easy to look up.
I’m using average annual salaries. It’s useless to do otherwise since contracts can be backloaded. And the luxury tax only counts average annual pay. So Beltran is a $17 million dollar player.
You can’t base your theories on the current market by what happened in the past. Don’t you remember when Manny signed his contract with the Red Sox and Frank Thomas, who had resigned with the White Sox the year prior, felt his contract was all of a sudden ‘unfair?’
What happened in the past is irrelevant. The current market is only what people are willing to pay CURRENTLY not what someone paid last year.
I cant base my salary projecti0ns on past salaries??
so santana and his agent wont bring up that Barry Zito is making 18 mil on avg a year (7/126) and say they deserve more..
thats just plain silly.
THEY can bring up whatever they want. That’s THEIR job. Again, this is SIMPLE economics. You can go to your boss tomorrow and say, “you know 5 years ago so and so who did my job was making x.” That DOESN’T mean your boss HAS to pay you that.
I have NO DOUBT that the players AGENTS are going to bring up what other people make. THAT’S THEIR JOB! The point is: what player X is making has nothing to do what player Y is GOING to make, not unless they are signing at the same time.
This is pretty simple logic.
Of course an agent can bring up past salaries. But it’s pointless if no one in the market will pay what a player looking is for … then case closed.
Having said that I think Santana will get between $20-$25 million a year when he’s a free agent. But I doubt many believe he’ll get close to $30 million. Heck, I don’t even think A-Rod will reach $30 million.
well at least we wont have to wait around very long to find out..
why would every team just shut him out
its a competitive environment. teams have the $$ and want to get better and spend their resources.
Players like Arod dont come along every year . esp when there is nothing else compelling in the market. its upply and demand. who in FA right now is comparable to a team wanting to get better?
One example is Boston has a ton of $$ coming off the books and will have a hole at 3rd base with Lowell going FA.
All conventional wisdom agrees that he will challenge the HR record . He MAY challenge rose’s hit record. That is an immeasurable value to any team in any league.
If you think 22 – 25 is reasonable for him I would contend that this added value adds another 50 % to his base.. its all conjecture..
You think he wont get over 30 and I think he will easily.. so we’ll see.
thats all folks
Are you replying to me? If so, maybe you need some sleep? My 22-25 mill comment was regarding Santana, not A-Rod. And up above when I specifically referred to A-Rod, you replied about Santana!
I never gave a specific range I thought A-Rod would get here in this thread. I just said I don’t think he’ll get $30 million. I stand by that.
what was this comment above then???
Comment by VCarver
2007-10-28 21:34:33
Oh, as for what I’d pay a Manny or A-Rod or Texeira or someone like that? If all were on the market right now, … A-Rod $24 mill a year for 5 years,
That comment referenced $24 million for A-Rod.
It said nothing about 22 to 25 mill which is what I used to reference Santana in an entirely different post.
ARod opted out: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7381184
MLB should FRY Boras for the timing of this. C’mon — Game 4 of the Series, with sweep potential?
Besides, if your Boston — one of the most likely destinations for ARod – don’t you want to have the chance to enjoy your victory without this stuff?
I’ll be shocked if Boston even courts him. Been there, done that. And it didn’t work out then. . A-Rod has a nasty rep with some Red Sox fans too because of his fight with Varitek and his bush slap play on Arroyo.
geez Vcarver, are you Fred or Jeff Wilpon?? i could see why you wouldnt want to sign Arod when you would much rather have old man Alou for one year on the DL(cheapskates)lol! Arod would make this offense formidable!! Contrary to some on this blog, i think we have a popgun offense as the only consistent hitters we have are Wright and Beltran period! Reyes is an unknown ,Delgado is done,the rest is trash! We have the resources to sign Arod this year then grab an ace next year! we have to stop thinking second rate and go for it for a change. no guts no glory
LETS HOPE VCARVER IS NOT A WILPON
Hey Scott, is that you? Well you can tell your client that we’re not going to fall for your spiel. It didn’t work in 2000 and it ain’t going to work now!
Seriously, apparently you are new here, because the Omar Protection Patrol is very well aware that I was never an Alou fan because of his injury and age risks.
I just think signing A-Rod is a monumental waste of resources and I’d rather spend it on the bullpen and on the rotation. We always want more offense, but offense wasn’t the biggest problem with the Mets especially down the stretch. It was the pitching.
I want the Mets to go for it also. But I want them to go for it the right way. Not overpaying monumentally for a very flawed big bat..
VCarver –
I know u said 22 was Santana.
but you steadfastly refuse to put a base value n Arod in terms of his production so i try to ablige
I said 22 is the floor for his worth .. at minimim as a player..
if you cant agree to that then I cant continue the discussion..
I think the intangibles are at lest worth 50% over and above the value you’d assign to him as a ball player/ so 30+ is reasonable in my eyes.
Look – he just “Opted out” in the 9th inning of game 4. clearly the yanks are out of it.. We’ll see what transpires over the course of the next few weeks. I DONT think it’ll be a long drawn out process.
My opinion is he gets 30+ .. I hope its in Right Field with the mets. but we’ll see.. you can wait around for Santana to maybe become a free agent in 2009.. your prerogative.
Good nite.. congrats to the Red Sox. maybe they’ll get fat and lazy and not go after him. maybe no one will offer more than 5 mil for him.. or maybe you’ll have to cheer on # 13 in a mets uni next year.. its all good either way.
Lets go Mets.. thank GOD the off season is here./
DWright already said he would move to second to accomodate Arod, so the path is clear if Wilpon wants him. i think he would take 25 million per year for 8 years to come to the mets. i agree Bigs that there is no guarantee that an ace will be available next year for sure! Also, people are overlooking 08′ for 09′ already which is pathetic. if we want an ace this year, Reyes will have to be traded. you have to give up something good to get something good
Then why did you say: “If you think 22 – 25 is reasonable for him” when talking about A-Rod? I was the one who talked about 22-25 but in reference to Santana. And I have no idea what you mean by I “steadfastly refuse to put a base value n Arod in terms of his production.” Huh? In terms of production you mean what his future offensive output will be? No one even asked me for an opinion on that. So how could I refuse, lol?
So, were you or were you not referring to my post about Santana when you mentioned “22 – 25?”
If not, then I’m sorry I jumped in because then you apparently were talking to someone else.