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In a recent report for FOXSports.com, Ken Rosenthal writes about the 
Mets, who he lists among three other clubs who ‘stand out as particularly intriguing possibilities for baseball’s drama king, (Alex Rodriguez), who soon could be a $300-million man.’
In Rosenthal’s opinion, the Mets should cut ties with Moises Alou, move David Wright to left field, and sign Rodriguez because it would add ‘sizzle to the new ballpark and sports network, helping wrest control of the New York market from the Yankees.’
Meanwhile, this morning on ESPN Radio’s Mike and Mike, ESPN.com’s Jayson Stark had the following to say about the future of Rodriguez…
“For every team you could throw out there that you think he’s going to, I could tell you why he’s not…There’s no easy answer to this question. The Angels have been mentioned a million times - I know they’re interested, I know they’re gonna talk. But, they don’t have a regional sports network, and they have big issues with paying somebody twice what Vladimir Guerrero is making - it’s sticky. I know people will mention the Dodgers, but the Dodgers have been burned by Scott Boras multiple times over the last few years and do not have a good working relationship with him. The Red Sox, their fans were chanting, “Don’t Sign A-Rod,” during the parade yesterday. The Cubs are not gonna get sold, the White Sox have already taken themselves out of it.
“I come back to a couple of times. One is the Mets, who have a General Manager who knows he is on notice. He’s got to win to keep his job. They have tons of money, with much more on the way when their ballpark opens and they have a regional sports network. So, it’s hard for me to ignore them. It’s really hard for me to ignore the Tigers, because they have done so much business with Scott Boras…I don’t know that they have anything worked out, but I firmly believe that when Scott Boras and A-Rod decided to opt out they knew that if all else failed there was a team that would sit there as his safety valve, and I still keep coming back to Detroit as that team.”
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arod to the mets just keeps on making more and more sense
The kicker for me is the all-time home run record. I desperately want to see Bonds’ record broken. If a Met breaks it, it’ll be that much sweeter.
On the other hand, signing Arod will not guarentee us a ring. But what player will?
If winning is the top priority, then going after Johan Santana is the best bet. But, as we know, baseball is a business and Arod is a cash cow.
Boras makes great points about how he will bring money to the table that will pay for his contract.
He will get us to the playoffs and then its up to the rest of the team to get us through it.
Also, where was it ever stated that Arod and Johan are mutaully exclusive….lets get both…..hell if Wilpon is buying, get ‘em all. Just dont screw with D-wright
Wouldn’t a team have to be legally insane to sign a guy to a contract that will pay some guy 30 mil at age 42? Oh well, it ain’t my money.
Lets start by listing the reasons and benefits of the mets signing arod:
1) Money is no issue for once and he’d pay for himself and then some with SNY and CITIFIELD on the way.
2) The Mets have never had a player of his caliber and the possibilty of him breaking the HR record and entering the hall of fame in a mets uniform as arguably the best player ever has to appeal to the wilpons.
3) Their lineup becomes dominant and one of if not the best in baseball instantly.
4) WIth Wright,Beltran, Reyes, locked up signing Arod would probably be the last big name position player they’d have to sign for a while and they can concentrate on the pitching market for the next few years while using role payers and the farm system to plug the other holes.
5) Say what you want about his ego the guy is a gamer, works hard, plays hard and never misses a game.
6) Signing him sticks it to the Yankees hard while shifting all the buzz in this town to the Mets. We all know how the Steinbrenners love having the back pages and they hate when the Mets have any buzz over them. For once the Mets can return the favor with the best player in the game leaving the great Yankees for the METS! As classy as Fred Wilpon is I’m sure he’d like that seeing as Yankee ownership doesn’t pay his team much respect.
Now I am starting to agree with that. If Milledge works out in RF next year and they can get a decent bat in LF when Alou comes off the books the year after, they are going to have money to spend next year too.
The Giants have to a big player. Boras got 130 million for Zito. I’m sure he can get close to 300 for Arod from them.
True. And with Bonds leaving, they need a big-time cleanup hitter who can draw fans. There’s nobody better to fill Bond’s shoes than ARod.
They are not going to be that quick to jump into a 7-10 commitment with a guy after they got completely hosed with Zito. I think that with Bonds gone you are going to see the Giants go into somewhat of a rebuilding mode. They are stuck with Zito, who sucks, and they can’t be happy about it. They know what it’s like to deal with an ego as big as A-Rod, and I don’t think they’ll be quite so fast to jump back into that situation. Having both A-Rod and Zito at the rates we’re talking would seriously handcuff them.
Originally, I thought the Giants would have been the perfect landing place for A-Rod. Now, after taking Zito into consideration, I am not so sure.
I still think that the SF Giants are a perfect match for Arod… West Coast… A nice City but more low key… NL, away from Yankees and Red Sox… they are used to Prima-donnas (ie. Bonds)…. SF needs to replace a megastar (ie. Bonds) since they are losing one and therefore also opening up the salary slot…. and they need a 3B…
Maybe after he signs, they can trade Zito to the Mets + 30 million for prospects… I think Zito can still be an effective pitcher and can be a perfect replacement for Glavine…
At one point I thought the same thing about A-Rod and SF. But after being burned by the Zito signing, I can’t see them dumping that much commitment into one player for that long a period of time.
And they can keep Zito. They’d never eat 30mil, and nobody would take that contract unless they did. They’re stuck with him.
But weirder things have happened.
Did you really suggest the Giants paying $300m? They’re small market in case you didn’t realize it.
The uproar over giving Zito $130 million was all over the papers.
When did Northern California become a small market?
You’re just flat-out wrong on that one.
The Giants are not a small market team.
The problem with Rosenthal’s logic is you have, what, 15 days to decide on Alou? A-Rod will not be signed by Nov. 15.
I’m starting to think the only way A-Rod is going to happen is if Omar thinks he can find a taker for Delgado. Even if the Mets pay a chunk of salary, I don’t see many takers for him….
I don’t really see a huge difference between Gary Sheffield and Carlos Delgado. In 2006, Sheffield posted a robust 107 OPS+ during an injury plagued season with the Yankees. In 2007, Delgado posted a 103 OPS+ during an injury plagued season with the Mets. The Yankees were able to pick up his 1-year option for $13 million and trade him to the Tigers for Humberto Sanchez, Kevin Whelan and Anthony Claggett, which was a pretty good haul. Sheffield is 4 years older than Delgado.
The Mets’ remaining obligation to Delgado is $16 million. The Marlins pay $4 million of his salary this year, the Mets pay $12 million of it, and then there is a $4 million buyout for a 2009 Team Option. I don’t see how the Mets couldn’t trade him somewhere in the AL and maybe only pick up the $4 million buyout tab, and still get a semi-decent return. Delgado’s deal does not have a no-trade clause that I am aware of.
I’m not saying I want to trade Delgado, but it’s the Mets should do if they are serious about getting A-Rod (of course they would trade Delgado after getting A-Rod, just as the Yankees traded Sheffield already having Abreu in place as their RF).
I guess the Sheffield comparison works for me. I’m still skeptical about trading Delgado but I guess it’s in the real of possibility.
Yeah, I think you would be surprised at the market for Delgado. Orioles? Angels? A’s (if the mets pick up a little more salary)?
There would be suitors.
No trade clause here guys. The market for him will be set by him
Are you sure he has a no-trade clause? It specifically cites on mlb4u.com that he does NOT have a no-trade clause.
Danny. I am pretty sure that it was something he had to waive to come to NY a few years back but I am going on memory. Obviously I do not have his contract to know and if MLB4U is always spot on with thier info then maybe they know better. Anyone else out there know the real scoop on that?
I’m fairly certain there is not a no-trade clause to contend with here. If anything, when we acquired him, there were concerned that he would demand a trade after the ‘06 season.
Delgado is not 10/5 either.
If memory serves me correctly, the only reason he was traded to the Mets is because he had NO no-trade clause. Otherwise, he would not be in blue and orange. The Marlins wouldn’t give it to him when he signed.
I think the only reason he was able to demand a trade was because he was traded in the middle of a multi-year contract. At that time, I believe anyone had that ability (if they were traded in the middle of a multi-year contract). And I get the sense that he doesn’t have a no-trade clause because when the rumors started that the Marlins were shopping him, I remember him being very upset and adamant about not wanting to be traded, so I’m sure he would have exercised his clause at that time. This is just my speculation, so I could easily be wrong.
Remember when Delgado spurned the Mets to go to the Marlins? I seem to remember that one of the sticking points was a full no trade clause. At the time it was all-important to Carlos to play in a place where he could get to his native land easily, ie the East Coast. That really narrows your potential suitors if he is able to turn down trades.
I remember it differently. I thought the sticking point was the approach that the Mets used. I don’t remember the no-trade clause. Again, I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt Omar would lose Delgado over a no trade clause. Omar stated publicly a few times afterwards that the Mets offer was better than Florida’s in all aspects, and in that year in particular (after getting Pedro and Beltran), Omar was overpaying just to get guys here. Lowballing on a no-trade clause was not his style.
agreed….he didn’t like that the Mets tried to play up the Latin American card, which is why he went with the Marlins over the Mets. And I’m pretty sure if he had a no-trade clause, he wouldn’t have let the Marlins trade him to the Mets a year later, no?
Exactly. Omar was spending like a wild man in 2005, overpaying for Pedro and Beltran. I have a very hard time believing that Omar would refuse to include a no-trade clause, especially if it was the tipping point in Delgado’s decision.
nah, besides, delgado will likely have a monster contract year. unload him in 2009. dw to 2b…will be better than utley
dw to 2b…will be better than utley
what are you basing that on?
I love david wright and all but chase utley is a better player in every category except maybe stolen bases. He’s just a monster who seems to be getting better every year.
I don’t know why he would go to Detroit. I understand the Boras connection but: No network, aging Superstars, small market, terrible place to raise a family, and the list goes on. Business wise: the Mets make sense. Baseball wise: I don’t know. As I stated in an early post: This team needs only two things to get over the hump. Some depth in pitching and a killer/hungry/never surrender attitude.
A-Rod is a client of my company and has visited our facility on numerous occasions. Without saying that I know him on a personal level, let me just say that what I do know of him and his wife does not indicate that having children is anywhere near the top of the Rodriguez priority list.
While nobody wants to live in a nasty city, which Detroit is IMO, I don’t think that playing in a city that would be a nice place to raise a family is as important a factor in this situation as it might be in some others.
Hell, if the schools were that important to him, he might consider a move to Colorado…
He has a daughter.
Never saw her.
My point was that both he and his wife appear, at least on the outside, to be very taken up with themselves.
I did not know about any children they had, and I didn’t mean to sound as if I know anything intimate about them.
Sorry.
She never goes to work with either of her parents?
AROD topic again. See all my posts over the past 2 days..summed up as do not trade Reyes for pitching and consider AROD for SS. Keep Reyes at SS.
This team needs an ace level pitcher and a reliable set up man like Francisco Cordero or Joe Nathan.
AROD is window dressing for us like he was for the Yanks last year. He did not help them win the championship because their pitching faltered when it counted.
Bringing AROD to the METS will be something similar except it will shift Wright to 1b likely and cause an early removal of Delgado in a onesided terrible trade where we pay his contract and get back little in return.
Work on deals for an ace and a closer level reliever who is willing to back up Wagner for a year. That should be the Mantra.
If AROD interrupts that effort even in the slightest by us signing him, then pass
“AROD is window dressing for us like he was for the Yanks last year.”
right, window dressing with a truckload of ribbys….and carried the yanks singlehandedly into the playoffs.
he did do that no doubt and crushed the ball all year or at least most of it.
But when it counted, when his team needed him to hit, when they sat in the playoffs dejected and down 2 games to none, needing a monster night by their go to guy……..
you finish the sentence for me
Needing a monster night by their go to guy . . .he had his second consecutive miserable start of the post-season, unable to get out of the second inning.
You were talking about Wang, right.
Oh, you meant that other guy.
Needing a monster night by their go to guy, he grounded into a rally-killing double play, capping off a God awful 3-17 in the ALDS.
Yeah, Derek Jeter did indeed come up short.
LOL
Here here!!!
Why are you so obssessed with aces when there are virtually none available?
Do you honestly think that the Mets have a better package than anyone else for an ace? Do you think that the Mets can top the Angels, D’Backs, Dodgers and Yankees in a deal for a top of the line starter like Johan?
That’s just as much fantasy as saying that A-Rod wants New York and that Minaya wants to give a player a player of that monumental price, and that Yorvit Torrealba is a decent replacement for Lo Duca.
Fact: Alex Rodriguez dislikes New York
Fact: Omar dislikes gigantic contracts when it is irrelevant to the team’s problems, and when he knows that he can get more for the money.
Fact: The Mets do not have what it takes to deal for Johan Santana, and even if the teams who do pull out, then it’s probably a warning sign meaning: Don’t sign him.
Fact: Carlos Silva is almost exactly like Steve Trachsel in WHIP, ERA, and home runs per 9 inning. He is WORSE in innings pitched per year and Strikeouts.
Fact: With Aaron Sele and [hopefully] Guillermo Mota and Scott Schoeneweis out of the picture, the Mets need to address the bullpen.
Fact: Luis Castillo is the best second baseman on the Mets since Edgardo Alfonzo.
Fact: Moises Alou was one of the most productive hitters in 2007.
Everyone talks about Wright moving to first, with ARod playing 3rd, but I really think it should be the opposite.
Fielding PCT over the last two years:
Wright: .954
ARod: .951
Both have excellent range (Wright actually had 100+ more chances), so I’ll call this a wash.
My thinking stems from two things:
1. ARod is 8 years older, and 30 pounds heavier that Wright. Both of these lead me to believe that over the next 5-6 years he will become more of a defensive liability than Wright will be. (I actually forsee Wright being a good def. 3B in the coming years.)
2. Offensively ARod’s numbers still make him an elite 1B, while Wright’s, right now, would be a little better than average. (This is an a priori approximation, I haven’t done a complete statistical analysis.)
Anyone who thinks the Mets can sign A-Rod, pay for Santana, and fill out the other roster spots with quality players without becoming the Evil Empire II is dreaming.
They’re not going to go the Yankee way. I can see the Mets signing A-Rod and then failing to make the postseason for the next 3-4 years because they didn’t make pitching their priority the way they always say they will.
It’s either A-Rod or pitching.
What pitching do you want?
Skip over A-Rod and get Joe Blanton, Carlos Silva, and Livan Hernandez instead?
That sure as Hell ain’t getting you to the promised land.
Santana. Plus middle relievers. Someone like Riske but not necessarily him. But I bet he at least has a better year in 2008 than both Mota and Schoeneweis who I’m afraid Omar is going to put back on the team. Cut your losses especially with Mota. Eat his contract. That’s one way they can immediately improve the team in terms of pitching.
If they pay A-Rod $30 million, then say goodbye to getting Santana and/or building a quality team with a focus on pitching. It’s not going to happen.
And I don’t buy this garbage that if the Mets don’t trade for Santana in 2008 then they have no chance to sign him when he becomes a FA.
……
The only opposition to your thoughts I have is that A-Rod is a far superior defensive third baseman. Putting a guy like Wright, who has the tools to become an above average first baseman, at first and slotting A-Rod to third actually improves the team. It just makes them right handed when you take Delgado out of the equation.
A-Rod is a far superior defensive third baseman.
Sorry but that’s pure bunk. Wright has a more erratic arm, but he’s far superior in terms of fielding balls in and out of the third base zone. Given the relative number of times his arm comes into play vs. the number of times they have to field balls, Wright’s advantage over A-Rod at that position is more important.
And given their ages, you can also expect A-Rod’s fielding over the next few years to get worse while Wright’s fielding to get only better. Moving A-Rod to first base makes the most sense to me.
Having Wright play 2nd base would be a disaster.
How many gold gloves has Wright won?
A-Rod has a few.
That’s not pure bunk.
Yes, it’s pure bunk.
A-Rod won them for SS. And the last one 4 years years ago. He’s never won one for 3rd base.
Right now, Wright is a better defensive third baseman than A-Rod is.
A-Rod won them for SS. And a few years ago. He’s never won one for 3rd base.
Right now, Wright is a better defensive third baseman than A-Rod is.
can we please stop this nonsense?? there is no way arod will be a met……..
everyone bitched about pitching…. u kno how much pitching 30M a year will get you?!?!
pitching wins championships… end of story.
Yep, This year $30M would get us Livan Hernandez, Carlos Silva and Jason Jennings
LOL
Exactly why they need to go out and get this guy. There is no pitching to be had. Omar and Willie are in a must win situation and this is the only way to improve….short of trading for Oswalt or Harden.
seriously guys?? you’re joking right?
Where to start…:
Mariano Rivera, Curt Schilling, Andy Pettite, Francisco Cordero, Troy Percival, Eric Gagne, Scott Linebrink, Octavio Dotel, Matt Herges, Jon Lieber, JC Romero, Livan Hernandez, Mike Timlin, Randy Wolf…
How many of them can 30M get you??
This makes me sick….We don’t need a selfish, big shot….SORRY- Why would Willie Randolph think he’s going to with with AROD…look at the Yankees….they got to win ONE more game…than we did…
But at least they made it in. They didn’t allow a rival Philly shortstop to talk smack and then have his prediction come true by 1 game.
Yes, but that meltdown was due to poor pitching, NOT poor offense.
It would make FAR more sense strategically for the Mets to focus their money/resources on shoring up the bullpen and getting a decent SP for 2008 and then, in prepartion for 2009, go after Tex (and of course Santana).
A lot of money is coming off the books next offseason – Alou, El Duque, Delgado and (perhaps) Pedro. The Mets will need a first baseman, so picking up Tex does not mean they have to worry about where one of their marquee players will play. And finally, it takes a power bat away from a key competitor.
The downside is that Tex is a Bora$ client, the Braves will not go give up without a fight and the Yankees will be needing a 1st baseman too. Still, I don’t see Tex going for $30M/year.
To be honest, our offense wasn’t all that great this year. In fact, Maine, Perez, Glavine, and Duque all had pretty solid seasons. If you wrote down their stats on a piece of paper in the preseason i’m pretty sure we would have all signed up for it.
What killed us was the 5th starter and an inconsistent lineup.
but they let their biggest rival win the AL East for the first time in 12 years and their second World Series in the four years since they acquired A-Rod. I’m sure the Yankees are thrilled about just making the playoffs and winning one game.
You cannot compare. They got off to a horrendous start and were written off by everyone but still made it in and almost caught the sox. I’m pretty sure you (and they) would have taken their season as opposed to ours.
Yes, I’d prefer to make the playoffs than to miss the playoffs. That said, if you think the yankees are satisfied with just making the playoffs, then you’re deluding yourself. If they were so thrilled about making thing the playoffs for the 12th year in a row, why is Joe Torre no longer their manager?
Never said they were satisfied. They would just choose their season over ours if given the choice. Most teams would, including the Pirates.
Can we get a no A-rod to the Mets petition going or something? What is wrong with everyone? Hopefully the Mets haven’t lost their minds as much as Cerrone and a lot of the posters here have, because this is a HUGE mistake. We shouldn’t even be bothering ourselves with A-rod. The last thing this team needs is to become a 24+1 team with no pitching and to completely alienate its cornerstones (Wright and Reyes). For years and years Mets fans have complaining that we didn’t have homegrown talent like Jeter or Bernie. Now we do, and all we can think about is moving them to a new position. Did the Yankees even consider moving Jeter when they got A-rod, even though A-rod is the superior shortstop? No. Moving or trading Wright and Reyes would be a huge blow to this team, and would seriously force me to question why I root for them.
. The last thing this team needs is to become a 24+1 team
By all accounts A-Rod is not nearly as selfish or as “me-first” as some are led to be believe. He plays hard every game – and he plays every game.
with no pitching
John Maine, Oliver Perez and Pedro Martinez would disagree with that assessment.
and to completely alienate its cornerstones (Wright and Reyes).
David Wright himself said he would move positions to accomodate A-Rod, and I believe he said that unsolicited.
Did the Yankees even consider moving Jeter when they got A-rod, even though A-rod is the superior shortstop?
They should have. By the way, funny you should mention that, because A-Rod generously decided to move positions even though the whole world knew he was better at that position than Jeter. Curious thing to do for such a selfish player.
Can I ask you this?
When you have superior talent, what the Hell does it matter if it’s home grown or not? That is such a stupid stance to take in the age of Free Agency. Teams in cities like Pittsburgh build their teams around home grown talent. Home many times during their championship years did the Yankees supplement their team with somebody else’s star player? How many of the Red Sox are home grown? A few, sure, but the key guys did not come from Boston.
I would be right with you about not signing A-Rod if we were able to go out and spend the money on pitching, but there isn’t any to be had. I would rather see the Mets spend $30 mil and bring us a guy who will hit 300/55/150 every year than 3 Livan Hernandez’s, which is what the market has to offer in the way of pitching.
I can’t stand the arguments from the anti A-Rod guys that make no sense. ” Oh…We don’t want any 24+1 guys…it’ll ruin the chemistry of our team…” Nonsense. Wake up and look at what this team actually did this past season with the expectations that they had.
Putting A-Rod at third base and moving Wright to first improves this team both offensively and defensively. Baseball players are mercenaries, and I’d bet that any guy on the Mets if asked would tell you that they’d do whatever they could to have a guy with A-Rod’s credentials on their team, and that’s good enough for me.
So enough of this anti A-Rod bologna. It just sounds stupid. Guys like this come around once a generation. If you are lucky enough to have him on your team, you go out and you get him. You don’t pass on him so that you are free to pursue second rate starting pitching.
good post, i agree 100%. the only thing id add to that is all those people saying “spend the money on pitching”….name me a GM in major league baseball that would trade Arod away for jason jennings and carlos silva.
I don’t see how Arod is a once in a generation type of player.
I have yet to see anyone who can explain to me how it is not Arod’s fault that he’s never been in a World Series. If he’s the best player in generations and worth $30 million a year, how has he not gotten to a World Series?
I’m not willing to make that type of an investment who, in my opinion, is not a team player and has not proven it. Again I make the point – the Yankees signed free agents to build AROUND their cornerstones, not on top of them. They signed Mussina – they didn’t sign Billy Wagner and move Rivera to the rotation. When they signed Arod, they moved him to 3rd, not Jeter, despite him being the better SS.
Finally, it DOES matter if your talents is homegrown or not, because no team can possibly win with a roster fully assembled by free agency. How can you look at the dominant teams of the last decade and say it doesn’t matter? The Yankees. The Braves. These Red Sox. The Marlins. The Tigers. The Twins. They were all built by building around their homegrown players to assemble a team.
Don’t give me the worst team in baseball (the Pirates) and say that this proves that you can’t win with homegrown talent. They’re quite possibly the worst organization in baseball. How aboout the A’s, the Brewers, the Marlins, the Twins, Diamondbacks, White Sox, Tigers. Without a core of homegrown players, a good team does not exist.
Well, for starters, A-Rod would have been in a World Series, (and most likely have been the ALCS MVP in 2004 to boot), if Mariano Rivera can record one out in game 4. That’s just off the top of my head.
And in the 2007 version of MLB, homegrown talent is completely overrated. It counts for nothing.
AND…
These Red Sox of 2007, and 2004 now that I am thinking about it, are most definately NOT built around a homegrown nucleus. That is very far from the truth. Sure, the Yankees have a large group of homegrown talent, but where has that gotten them?
I think the best example of a team that is made up of mostly homegrown talent is the Phillies, and they suck, too.
You think the Marlins are homegrown? Think again. Not many of the guys on that team came through their system. They acquired them in trades for their established stars.
The idea that you MUST have some homegrown talent is ridiculous. In this day and age, a team full of FA’s would compete just as well or better than a team made up of mostly homegrown players.
One that drving me nuts is the poor logic being used. The Mets do not need to make moves to add “sizzle”, or the “wrest the headliens away from the Yankees”. Any moves made for this reason (getting a big name becuase it is a big name) rarely works out, right Steve Philips?
So, any decision needs to be made purely from an on the field production standpoint (basically, what leads to more wins). The seats will be full of fannys if the Mets with, doesn’t matter if they have A Rod or Benny Agbyani hitting clean up.
One thing I would do is look to trade Delgado, but on the Mets terms. basically like the Sheffied deal noted above. If the mets can get some decent prospects to bulk up the farm (even better, somene useful for the big club, like a RP, C or 2B), then do it now.
They can always get a 1B. Wright if they get a new 3B (A Rod or other), or someone from the minors or elsewhere. Of course, they should keep him if there really aren’t any other viable options! But a good glove 1B that can be a reasonably consistant offensive producer would be nice.
All part of my hope that Omar thinks outside of the box to make the team better for 2008, while still priming them for 2009+
You say that A-Rod isn’t the answer, and then create a scenario in which getting A-Rod fits into perfectly.
I really think that the Mets should, and will, be in on A-Rod.
“look at the Yankees….”
yeah, without arod, the yanks woulda finished near last place
signing arod is impratical. the mets have other needs like picthing. he jus causes chaos and unneeded drama to the team and clubhouse. oh and did i mention that he is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of being clutch. i hope the mets dnt sign him.
Let’s spend $30M on the great free agent pitchers available now, like… uh… uh…. hmmm
This clubhouse needs something, anything. If it’s drama, than so be it. Because the “boredom” which was hovering over the clubhouse in 2007 caused a problem in case you didn’t notice.
A-rod doesn’t bring drama. He brings apathy. I’d be all for him if he was a controversial figure who got up in his teamate’s faces and challenged them to be as good as him. Everything I have seen from him so far shows me that he’s pretty much apathetic about anything other than making a lot of money.
Secondly, I have to hope that some of you are teenagers, because your lack of fiscal knowledge is appalling. There are no good free agent pitcher this year, so lets go after Arod? Really? Since we can’t buy anything this second we should make a $300 million dollar investment over the next 10 years? How about we hold off now so we can go after Johan Santana next offseason. How about we leave some room in the payroll so we can go after a guy like Oswalt if he becomes avaiable via trade. If you’re looking to rent an apartment, you don’t buy a $30 million dollar mansion because it’s the only thing available.
If you can afford a 30 million dollar mansion (which the Mets can), then why the heck would you be looking to rent an apartment?
And why do you think that spending the money on ARod would mean we can’t get Santana next season? Say Arod costs 30 million per year. In 2009 (when Santana will start getting paid), Glavine, Pedro, Delgado will be off the books, and Wagner will be in his final year. Glavine (11 mil), Delgado (16mil), Pedro (13 mil) total up 40 million. Santana will surely cost less than that, probably half. And Wagners money will come off in 2010, which is another 10 million in savings. With SNY and the new stadium coming, they can afford Arod right now and still do whatever the heck they want next year.
Please explain to me what the so-called drama that A-Rod caused was. The bimbo in his hotel? That’s not fair. You think A-Rod was the only Yankee pulling that crap? Did you hear the story in the news about the two classy young ladies and the unvalidated parking tickets? Or does that story get looked over because it’s Jeter?
And btw, if Mariano Rivera is able to get one out in the 2004 playoffs we don’t even have this discussion about A-Rod not being clutch. He ripped the Sox up in that series, and only went into a funk after Rivera blew the lead with the Yanks up 3 games to none. And it was not just A-Rod who stopped hitting.
Bottom line is that the Yankee roster should have been able to survive a little better than it did even without A-Rod hitting. He carried the Yanks to the playoffs, and they couldn’t give him any help once they were there.
That’s not A-Rod being the opposite of clutch, that counting on A-Rod to provide all of the offense of the team. The Yankees have far too many high ticket guys in their lineup for A-Rod to shoulder all of the blame for the Yankee shortcomings.
Couldn’t agree more. You know how Piazza always gets the half-hearted compliment of “best hitting catcher?” A-Rod will go down as the greatest regular season player of all time, but he has never won, and I want nothing to do with him. Get some friggin’ pitching.
Nobody on the Mets has won anything either…besides Pedro and Alou.
Luis Sojo has a whole bunch of rings. He’s won a lot. If he were in his prime right now, would you rather take him to play 3rd over ARod just because Sojo has “won” and Arod hasn’t? Also, getting ARod won’t preclude the Mets from getting pitching, especially if it’s Carlos Silva.
It’s amazing how often a lie can get repeated and then accepted as Gospel. Out of eight post-season series A-Rod has played in (I’m not counting the 1995 playoffs when he had about 2 ABs), he has had 2 bad ones – 2005 and 2006. Other than that, his production has been fine. Has he put up Manny Ramirez like numbers in the post-season? No, but he also hasn’t put up Barry Bonds (pre-roids) number either?
And it seems like the critics want it both ways. They constantly talk about the importance of team, and how supposedly A-Rod kills the team concept. And yet these same team-obsessed people want to single-handedly blame A-Rod for the Yankees’ playoff disappointments. He hasn’t won, they like to say, as though he no one else is to blame for the team’s failures.
Further up there is discussion on Delgado being similar to Sheffield in terms of what teams would be willing to part with for him. What the yankers got was not a huge haul but Humberto was thought of at that time as a stud pitching prospect.
if we could retool here by trading Delgado for another teams Humber or Pelfrey along with some surrogate pieces like Gotay throw ins, I’d have to look real hard at snapping up Arod, losing the 1st round pick if it happens before Dec and then moving Wright to 1b. We lose nothing in production from the offensive side (though we do become more righthanded) and we fill in the farm system with at least one well thought of developing pitcher.
If the Giants do not get Arod or the Dodgers do not get Arod then both teams could be interested in Delgado to add pop to some weak offensive clubs with no good 1b
Arod is leaving New York . period. end of story.
Arod wants the west coast and with the Angels, Dodgers and Giants are all possible then any talk about the Mets makes ZERO sense.
Zero.
i tend to agree with you. Those teams (specifically the Giants and Dodgers) need hitting and he coudl help for nothing more than money. The METS need pitching.
But, if we do sign him for the most money and if Delgado can be traded without a no trade restriction to one of those teams, they would likely snap him up because they need the offense.
It could land us a decent haul of prospects if we do the deal right
It’s not that ARod doesn’t like NY… he doesn’t like playing for the Yankees. The Yankees are a boring, uptight franchise who rip the personality out of people unless they already act “like Yankees.”
Look at Giambi and Damon, those guys completely changed themselves once they came over here to assimilate to the Yankee Way. I never heard anything bad about ARod until he came to the Yankees.
Coming to the Mets would allow him to relax and just play ball. Playing in the Bronx Zoo could drive anyone bonkers. Imagine constantly being compared to Jeter, a guy who couldn’t dream of putting up the numbers you put up year after year, all because he had the good fortune of being in the right place at the right time.
Look at a guy like Mattingly. He was a terrific player, but he played on some brutal teams. Not his fault. Like people say all the time. This isn’t basketball or football… ARod can’t take every atbat. He only gets to hit 3-4 times a game. And if no one is on base ahead of him, there isn’t much he can do.
How many zero’s in 300 million?
it has nothing to do with what we want.
he does NOT want NY.
he wants out. there will be offers from the west coast.
What makes you so certain?
No-one knows how this is going to end up.
The Mets need pitching, but I guess an A-Rod shoehorned in for good measure is a good business move in the long term…
I hope you’re right. A-Rod is all wrong for the Mets. He wasn’t right for them in 2000 and he’s not right for them now.
He’s still the 24+1 player Steve Phillips talked about.
I pray he already has a deal worked out with a west coast team.
The thing is, if the Mets offer more money, then his big desire of getting out of New York would vanish into thin air.
Anyone who thinks the Mets can sign A-Rod, pay for Santana, and fill out the other roster spots with quality players without becoming the Evil Empire II is dreaming.
They’re not going to go the Yankee way and they shouldn’t. I can see the Mets signing A-Rod and then failing to make the postseason for the next 3-4 years because they didn’t make pitching their priority the way they always say they will.
It’s either A-Rod or pitching. They’re not going to be able to do both.
“It’s either A-Rod or pitching. They’re not going to be able to do both.”
Luckily the Wilpons are receiving food stamps, or it’d be another mac & cheese holiday season in the old mansion.
No, they’re not receiving food stamps. That post about the $30 million was misleading. That’s merely revenue sharing money that’s being recycled. The money is coming out of the “haves”: — the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets etc. — and being redistributed to the “haves” and the “have nots.” But the net effect is actually a loss for the Mets since they are one of the teams that contributes more than they take out.
Just to clarify. The money comes out of both the “haves” and “have nots” but it comes mostly out of the “haves.”
Any news leak out from yesterdays meetings at Shea that give us a hint of the direction we are taking this off season?
If Angels sign ARod; will they look to move Valdimer (sp?)?
It’s going to be so horrible, and fun, seeing how all of us go round and round with this over the next few months. Just a couple of things to say:
1) On “we’ll never get him” — I do understand where you’re coming from, but many people, myself included, were 100% sure that we had absolutely no shot at getting Carlos Beltran. Then we got him. Never say never.
2) There’s just way too many “just go get pitching” posts. There are also too many “Get ARod but get a top starter, too.” If we want a top pitcher this year, we have to trade for it, the market is bare for top free agent pitching, period. While we have some decent prospects, we don’t have the knock your socks off prospects that can land us and ace. I think if you want ARod, you have to admit that it opens up a distinct possibility that Reyes could be traded. I can live with that if it brings us Oswalt, Haren, or Santana.
So, if getting quality pitching is your main priority, I think you have to think about ARod as Reyes’ replacement. If you think we can just tweak the rotation, add ARod, and try to outslug our opponent, then fine, but you have to admit to yourself that is what you will see next year.
And if you think we can just tweak our current pitching staff, and not get ARod, and be competitive, I think you’re dreaming.
I think the point that needs to be made is that ARod costs us nothing but cash, allowing us to keep our tradeable assets for pitching. Look at the FA market for pitching… there is no one out there. No one. Any ace this team acquires will be via trade.
Plus, signing ARod allows you to go young in other spots in the lineup. The mistake the Yankees made is where the Red Sox got it right. When you have guys like ARod, Ramirez, and Papi in your lineup, you can afford to let some kids develop. Look at Pedroia. He started off pretty poorly, but because they have those two big bats in the lineup, they let him get settled in and develop. Look at how he performed in the postseason.
Say the Mets could unload Delgado while signing ARod and letting Alou go (hypo here). That means they could let Milledge and Gomez play the corners in the OF with Wright moving over to 1B. They could even resign LoDuca for a year.
Get…pitching…in…2009.
Many…good…pitchers…in.,..2009
World does…not…end after…2008
Allergic…to…the…obvious
Its not ONE player that wins championships. Its a whole TEAM. Obviously you could have one of the best teams on paper (Yanks…) and not win one. I dont like disrupting the make up of our team to suit this clown. Is he the best ball player right now? yes, but I dont like what it WILL do to our TEAM. I think we are a couple of pitchers away from have a really really good team, if we get A-Rod….we couldnt afford two beers at shea let alone any good pitching….
but I dont like what it WILL do to our TEAM
You mean, make them score more runs every game? Yeah, that’ll totally disrupt the team. Sorry, I mean TEAM.
By the way, why do so many A-Rod critics bring up the trope about him being disruptive to the TEAM while they simultaenously point out that he hasn’t won anything? If TEAM is so important, and baseball comes down to the TEAM, then it seems silly to blame a guy for not winning a championship in TEAM sport.
Because if a player is disruptive to building positive team chemistry, then he’s detrimental to winning a ring.
Because A-Rod is paid so much and is so self-centered, his issues, personality, and state of being automatically become the focus of any team. He takes the focus away from the rest of the team and teamwork. It’s all about me-me-me.
Do you have any evidence to back up the claim that he is disruptive to team chemistry? By all accounts, despite some primadonna qualities, he’s a generally good “team” guy who works hard and plays every day. He also agreed to move positions even though he was a better SS than Jeter – hardly the act of a selfish guy.
And if the guy is so disruptive, then how did the Yankees make the post-season every season he was there? Was it his “disruptive” quality that made Randy Johnson pitch like crap in the post-season? Or Wang? Or Mussina?
Do you have any evidence that the guy actually disrupts team chemistry? Did he disrupt the Yankees when he moved positions to accomodate a guy who he was superior to at SS? Did he disrupt chemistry when he won the MVP in 2005 and (probably) 2007, and when he carried the 2007 team on his back in 2007? Was it his disruption to team chemistry that caused Randy Johnson, Wang, and Mussina to all pitch horribly in the post-season?
I never heard any of this when he was with Seattle and Texas.
A-Rod had no choice but to move over to third if he wanted to escape his self-created prison in Texas. He didn’t have a say. And while his numbers are superior to Jeter’s, he pales in comparison to him in terms of makeup.
The evidence I have that he disrupts team chemistry is the inability of the teams he’s been on since he hit payday to succeed, as well as his incidents of poor behavior (the slap play for example). In general, I don’t think he’s held in high regard by his teammates or competitors, and they see him making so much more than everyone else. If you’re paid like that, you better be a difference maker. You better not act like an a-hole. Or else, why should a team waste the money?
So, no. There is no hard evidence that he’s detrimental. But there’s circumstantial evidence . And he sure hasn’t shown that he’s a difference maker either. Just a stats compiler.
So basically singlehandedly lifting your team into the postseason isn’t being a difference maker?
Usually you do a very solid job backing up your arguments, but this time a lot of what you’re saying is based on conjecture.
Why haven’t his teams advanced? Texas was just a brutal team. People love pointing to how Seattle had this great turnaround once he left, but they never made it out of the first round of the playoffs. Texas still stinks and he has been gone 4 seasons.
ARod was not high on the list of Yankees problems this season… the guy won 2 MVPs in 4 years for crying out loud. The Indians were a better team; they had much better pitching.
And maybe the reason why the guys in the Yankee clubhouse didn’t like him was because they were egomaniacs… who knows? You know, ARod put up with a lot of BS while he was in the Bronx. Stuff like: “he’s not a true Yankee,” Torre dropping him in the lineup, and Jeter continuously hanging him out to dry. Maybe ARod isn’t a model teammate, but I don’t see how Jeter is either? Everyone loves talking about what a great leader Jeter is, well I have news for you… Jeter hasn’t won squat since O’Neill and Tino hung ‘em up.
You must be drinking Boras’ Kool-Aid. A-Rod didn’t single-handedly lift his team into the playoffs. That’s nonsense. When he was having his hottest months, his team sank to 9 games below .500. Only after Cashen got rid of some underperforming players and brought up the kids did that team take off.
I said there was no hard evidence. Of course it’s anecdotal and circumstantial. But by the same token it’s hard to point to any one year of A-Rod’s career and say he lifted his team up on his back and propelled them to greater glory. I think you can make more of a case for Beltran having done that in 2004 than A-Rod having done it in any year in his career.
Texas was a brutal team before A-Rod got there and the point is he didn’t make them any better. And again, their attendance dipped. You think that A-Rod would be a draw on his own. But he’s not. It doesn’t matter that Seattle and Texas still stink. The point is that even with A-Rod they stunk. If you’re an owner, what would you prefer – stinking OR stinking just the same amount but paying $25 million to one player for the privilege of doing so?
If A-Rod wasn’t a problem for the Yankees this year, I don’t think it’s clear he was an answer either. If he costs around $20 million, no problem. But for $30 million he better be an answer.
Yes, the Indians got further because they have better pitching. Which is exactly the why many don’t want the Mets to sign A-Rod. They can say money isn’t an issue all they want, but that doesn’t sound too credible when they literally penny pinched Bradford last winter.
You can speculate on the personalities of all the other Yankees, but none of then have a rep for being egomaniacs the way A-Rod does. None of them came out in the media saying ridiculous things like others are jealous of them because they are “bi-racial,” uni-racial, zebra-striped or whatever. And precisely who said he’s not a true Yankee?
Also, leadership doesn’t necessarily mean leading your team to a ring. Beckett and Lowell led their team to a championship. They were difference makers. But I’m not aware of either of them being particularly strong leaders. Leadership is about the way you play; the way you conduct yourself on and off the field; setting examples for other players; respecting the game, your teammates, and competitors – and not exhibiting unsportsmanlike behavior like slapping balls out of competitors’ gloves. That’s leadership.
I still don’t get how that’s unsportsmanlike. Was he supposed to just stop and allow Arroyo to tag him? Granted, he should have ran him over, but still… unsportsmanlike? Really?
You don’t ever bring anything new to the table. You just repeat your propaganda over and over again. If the Yankees didn’t have ARod they would not have made the playoffs.
Chad Bradford would not have lifted the Mets to the playoffs. And you can’ t cry penny pinching because they decided to give that money to Show… while it may have been ill advised, it wasn’t penny pinching.
As for leadership, ARod is the best player in baseball. Check for how he plays on the field. The guy busts his butt in the offseason and is always in phenomenal shape, check for setting an example in how he prepares.
And where have you been for the last four years. He has been constantly under fire for BS reasons in all the papers. When he was struggling in ‘06 there were a ton of articles about how ARod wasn’t a “true Yankee”. This was discussed ad nauseum.
Texas’ attendance dipped because they sucked and ARod was still in the early stages of his career, so he wasn’t setting records yet. He still hadn’t won an MVP at that point (even though he should have won the MVP in ‘96).
While he probably isn’t as big of a draw as Boras would like us to believe, you can’t say he isn’t a draw at all. As he closes in on all of these records you will see people flocking to the stadium.
Plus, I think a lot of the public perception of him is media driven. The media plays a huge rule in shaping public perception and the New York media are a bunch of jackals. Look at what happened with LoDuca. They could have made a huge deal about that, but they didn’t It ran for about a week, but then it died. Why is that? I doubt ARod is the only guy with transgressions while on the road… why don’t we hear about them? Because no one gives a crap about LoDuca or anyone else. ARod is a HUGE star… that’s why you know everything he does and nothing about anyone else.
I still don’t get how that’s unsportsmanlike. Was he supposed to just stop and allow Arroyo to tag him? Granted, he should have ran him over, but still… unsportsmanlike? Really?
Yes, really. Only A-Rod fanboys think otherwise. You think people would mock A-Rod mercilessly over this (the pink purse) if he just ran someone over? This was one of the most unsportsmanlike displays of on-field behavior I’ve ever seen.
You don’t ever bring anything new to the table. You just repeat your propaganda over and over again. If the Yankees didn’t have ARod they would not have made the playoffs.
Neither do you. And if you really feel that way why do you 1) keep reading my posts and 2) keep replying to them? What does that say about you if really believe what you say? As for making the playoffs, they don’t make it without Wang, or Chamberlain, or Posada, or Abreu either. When A-Rod was at his hottest, his team sank to 9 games under .500.
Chad Bradford would not have lifted the Mets to the playoffs.
Totally disagree. Surely he would have meant at the very least 2 more wins for the team and that would have meant the playofffs.
And you can’ t cry penny pinching because they decided to give that money to Show
That’s just part of the reason. It’s also because they wouldn’t go to 3 years on him.
As for leadership, ARod is the best player in baseball. Check for how he plays on the field. The guy busts his butt in the offseason and is always in phenomenal shape, check for setting an example in how he prepares.
Your first sentence is a non-sequitor. The rest of that is not anything new. Just a repetition of your propaganda. Hey, bring something new to the table. You’re just the pot calling the kettle black.
continued…
…and where have you been for the last four years. He has been constantly under fire for BS reasons in all the papers. When he was struggling in ‘06 there were a ton of articles about how ARod wasn’t a “true Yankee”. This was discussed ad nauseum.
Huh? Where have you been the last 4 years? That comment did not even come out of the Bronx. And the flak he got wasn’t for BS reasons. All of it was warranted. I know of no other high profile baseball player who has acted so immaturely and unprofessionally during this time.
you can’t say he isn’t a draw at all.
Sure you can. Because 1) There’s evidence his presence depressed attendance in Texas or at least coincided with it and 2) Attendance went up after he left Seattle and 3) There’s no evidence that he on his own is a draw. As for his chase for the records, that won’t happen for years. Any attendance bump won’t come until long after he signs his next contract.
continued…
Plus, I think a lot of the public perception of him is media driven. … Look at what happened with LoDuca. They could have made a huge deal about that, but they didn’t It ran for about a week, but then it died. Why is that? I doubt ARod is the only guy with transgressions while on the road… why don’t we hear about them? Because no one gives a damn about LoDuca or anyone else.
Huh? Who’s even talking about A-Rod’s indiscretions in this thread? LOL, you seem to be the only one. Maybe you’re the one obsessed over it. And no one bashing A-Rod in the media the last week is bringing it up either. No. What they bring up are other things like his greed, immaturity, postseason failures, and unprofessional behavior like the slap — not driven by the media, but driven by A-Rod himself. If he didn’t act so poorly so often, he wouldn’t have the reputation he has. His rep is self-created.
Try to stay on point here.
Hate to admit it, but I’m hooked. Now the Mets better not be the old Mets and offer some half-baked contract or “dip their toes”. Either go strong or get out now and move on.
As for the Giants, being in SF, I can’t imagine they’d be a big player. First off, the Giants suck. He’ll ave 50 homers and 55 rbis, there is no one that is going to get on for him to drive in. Their bullpen is awful and their starting pitching is still very eratic. Second, McGowan, nothwithstanding Zito, will not go that high again. It is a great town to live in , though.
I’m against getting A-Rod because I think he’s a total ass-clown, but I was listening to Shmax Kellerman today and he made a good point.
Would you rather have David Wright and Reyes for the next 5-10 years on the left side of your infield…
or would you rather use Reyes as a chip to get Santana and have David Wright and A-Rod on the left side of your infield + Santana?
Trading Reyes for a guy you’re guaranteed to have for a year is foolhardy….
But I can be sold on trading Reyes for an ace the Mets could control for a few more years., say, Roy Oswalt …. hmm……
I’ve been banging that drum for a while. Though, with Santana, I think you just do the kind of trade where you get a chance to negotiate an extension with Santana before the trade is completed.
That said, I like Oswalt even better because he has ace stuff and is relatively inexpensive considering the market. Landing a more reasonably priced ace may help Wilpon, who still has a little Freddy Coupons inside him I’m sure, feel better about the expense of ARod.
Reggie Jackson and Randy Johnson are just two names that quickly popped into my head when I thought of Hall of Fame type players who were selfish pr!cks as a teammate AND who were able to lead a team (s) to World Series wins.
Do you want a team that wins or do you want a team that you feel like hugging?
Neither of them had contracts that ate up 20-30% of the team payroll. When an organization does that with one player, they are saying that player is so much more important than everyone else.
Rewatch The Bronx is Burning. Reggie’s salary was a big bone of contention in the Yankee clubhouse that season. Wasn’t he the first Million Dollar Man?
Rewatch? lol. I never watched it in the first place. Isn’t that just for Yankee fans? Are you a Yankee fan?
So, what year are you talking about?
No, the franchise is saying they will pay you what you’re worth (according to the market).
Beltran got a nice big contract. So did Pedro, Glavine, and Wagner. Are they worth more than the rest of the guys?
Wright and Reyes shouldn’t be worrying about how much ARod gets paid. They’ll get theirs eventually. That’s the way baseball works.
The Mets have been responsible spenders the past few seasons. The Alou deal was excellent, they passed on Zito, and the only contract you could consider the be a bad contract is the Schoenweiss deal. To be honest, he wasn’t as bad as people make him out to be either.
If the Mets feel ARod is worth the investment and they sign him, I will trust their judgment. They are one of the few teams who can add ARod without it handcuffing their future spending.
Sure, but if the Mets agree to pay A-Rod $30 million, then they are saying he is twice as important as Beltran, and 3 times as important as Wright and 5 times as important as Reyes.
And, yes, Beltran was worth his contract. So was Glavine. So was Pedro. So was Wagner.
A-Rod is NOT worth $30 million. Period. Especially for 8-10 years.
And I wouldn’t call dumping the money they did on Mota and Schoneweis responsible. I don’t think $7 million for a partial season of Alou is a great deal either. I guess only in relation to the Yankees can they look like OK deals. But I don’t think that’s a good yardstick.
The Alou deal was a solid gamble, it just didn’t work out.
Mota and Schoenweiss were bad deals for sure, but I am not going to get worked up over them… those contracts are small potatoes compared to Wagner, Beltran, and Pedro.
Why isn’t ARod worth 30 mill? Because you say so? Because you follow up your statements with “Period.?” If he gets 30 mill a year then that is what the market said he was worth.
All baseball players are overpaid once they hit free agency.
If the Mets want the best player in the game, then they have to dish out what he’s worth. If the Mets don’t believe he is worth that much, then fine, don’t sign him. But he will be worth 30 mill to someone.
Mota and Schoeneweis monetarily may not be huge deals. But what they cost the Mets this year in terms of wins was tremendous. I’m estimating that relative to league average relievers, they cost the Mets together at least about 5-6 wins.
A-Rod is not worth $30 million because:
1) He has never shown to pay back his salary the way Boras keeps saying he does.
2) He comes up small in the postsason and other clutch situations..
3) He has a lot of baggage — a big rep for acting poorly off and on the field
4) If you prorate his production to $30 million, that is grossly inefficient compared to other hitters in the game including Beltran, Pujols, Howard, and Ordonez to name a few.
5) He’s overly self-absorbed and immature and represents a negative influence to team chemistry.
For all these reasons, he’s not worth that money. And no, I disagree. All players are not overpaid to the tune of $30 million dollars. Some players are absolute bargains. And some are paid just about right (Beltran).
I may be wrong but I don’t believe anyone will end up paying him $30 million a year — unless maybe it’s a short term contract. And if the Mets pay him that money then they are crazy.
Let me add a 6th reason:
6) He has never demonstrated leadership qualities either.
Those are pretty bold estimates. Schoenweiss really wasn’t as bad as everyone likes to believe, and Mota was only around for 2/3 of the season. Could he really have made that much of a difference? Personally I think Pelfrey starting off 0-7 (I think that’s accurate) hurt the team far more than either of those two did.
My point was that almost all baseball players become overpaid after hitting the open market. Maybe a guy like Matt Stairs can remain a bargain, but those kind of players are rare. Plus, you still need to live with his flaws.
Everything else you write is conjecture. Sure, Boras may over exaggerate his peripheral economic value, but it is pretty well established that this is hard to quantify either way.
Repeat after me: “There’s no such thing as clutch… there’s no such thing as clutch… there’s no such thing as clutch…” Followed by: “Sam-ple Size…sam-ple size… sam-ple size”
The rest of the stuff about baggage and immaturity and lacking leadership… all conjecture. You only know about all of this because he is the best player in baseball and gets the most attention. Paul LoDuca has just as much baggage, if not more than ARod’s perceived baggage.
At least it is undisputable that ARod would provide a strong example of hard work and determination. The guys busts his butt to be as good as he is.
What’s hilarious is that I don’t even want ARod. I am happy with DW and Jose and do not want to disrupt their development. ARod doesn’t fit here, but not because of impossible to quantify reasons like “baggage, and inability to hit in the clutch, or he cheats on his wife.” It’s because he literally does not fit, ie: there is no position open for him to fill.
VCARVER SAYS ARod is not worth $30 million because:
1) He has never shown to pay back his salary the way Boras keeps saying he does.
Dont know what this means./. Pay back his salary. He is paid to perform on the field and has won 2 MVPs in the last 4 years and will someday break most of the biggest records in the game.
2) He comes up small in the postsason and other clutch situations..
You’re a numbers guy.. He has had 147 post season AB and has hit 279 with 7 HR and 17 RBI in 39 games.. Not up to his usual standards but hardly coming up small given no one pitches to him. Besides its a very Small Sample.
3) He has a lot of baggage — a big rep for acting poorly off and on the field
Baggage? Do you mean luggage? What? he slapped a ball out of someones hands and yelled I GOT IT on the basepaths? He runs around with strippers? Come on. seriously. hardly a Jeff Kent or Barry Bonds or Milton Bradley
4) If you prorate his production to $30 million, that is grossly inefficient compared to other hitters in the game including Beltran, Pujols, Howard, and Ordonez to name a few.
He makes his salary because of hes been raking since 18 years old and has a kick ass agressive agent. Dont hate him cause he gets paid/ Pujols and Howard arent available in the FA market. Ordonez took a lower salary cause he’s always hurt. Did you complain about betrans’s then blow out contract when he signed with us? No seems a bargain given the market.
5) He’s overly self-absorbed and immature and represents a negative influence to team chemistry.
You say this is all circumstantial evidence in a previous post. Not worth the keystrokes to refute it again.
6) He has never demonstrated leadership qualities either.
I dont see this as a big deal. Its his personality… With the Mariners he started as a rook with a strong personality as a manager. With Texas. he probably hated it there.. its texas for chrissakes. with the yanks there where already a few leaders in the clubhouse and he just slid into the back ground as much as he could.
The way I see it from reading your comments your opinion is driven by a desire to bring on Johan Santana in 2009. How you could justify spending 25+ milfor probably 7 years on a 30 year old pitcher in Santana is another whole thread. Right now Santana is a pipe dream unless the Mets trade for him ASAP. Arod is here right now and ready to come aboard for just the price of admission. At least you are buying into the price of admission now whereas a few days ago you were claiming no one would pony up the 30+ mil for him.
squad: I think Schoeneweis was really as bad as people think. Especially in the first half. He didn’t start to pitch decently until the second half. There are many appearances where the record doesn’t even indicate how bad he was. Like when he came into games and poured fuel on the fire but didn’t get charged for a run.
And Mota was horrible all year long. Yes, he really did hurt the team. I don’t know how any objective Mets fan can say he didn’t.
And of course Pelfrey hurt the team. But you give the kid a chance because he’s a young high ceiling prospect. You don’t give a chance to two older pitchers who already had bad numbers on the back of their baseball cards.
If many of my points concerning A-Rod’s economic value are conjecture, so are most of the points of those who are for getting him. What’s not conjecture is that he was not a draw on his own in either Texas or Seattle. Which runs contrary to Boras’ tired weak spiel.
Repeat after me: Some players are clutch. Some players are clutch. Some players are clutch. Now repeat this: Beckett, Jeter, Ortiz, Schilling … Beckett, Jeter, Ortiz, Schilling. There is enough of a sample size for players like these to say they are clutch.
As for baggage, immaturity, and lack of leadership … it’s more than conjecture. A-Rod has a rep for all these things. Some players have a rep for being hotheads. Would you say it’s conjecture that Bradley is a hot head? Of course not. Just like it’s not conjecture that A-Rod has the issues I mentioned.
As for Lo Duca … he’s not paid $25 million a year. He’s not asking for $30 million a year. He’s not known to bash his teammates individually in the media (just the opposite) He’s never done something so unsportsmanlike as slapping a ball out of a competitor’s glove. Nor is he known to proclaim how everyone is jealous of him because he’s some handsome Italian dude. He doesn’t demand to be the center of attention in the midst of a WS game that he isn’t even participating in. That’s the difference between LoDuca and A-Rod.
I don’t find it hilarious that you don’t want A-Rod. Why would I? That’s very good. It’s the first bit of good judgment you’re demonstrating in this thread! :smile:
BiggieSmalls –
1) It means exactly what everyone is saying to try to justify giving A-Rod $30 million. Well, at least what Boras and less than half the Mets fan base are saying. Haven’t you been reading this site? Well there’s no evidence that A-Rod does this or would do this. None.
2) In the NY market with the pressure more intense, he’s been a big failure in the postseason. Since game 3 of the ‘04 ALCS his numbers are dismal. Compare his postseason run production to someone like Lowell. And I don’t believe it’s because A-Rod’s ABs w-RISP are less. They are probably more. He’s got 150 ABs in the postseason. That’s enough of a sample size to get an idea of the type of pressure player he is.
3) The slap. The fake call. The fight with Varitek. The bashing of a competitor and supposed friend in the press. The vain proclamations in the press this year about why he is disliked by so many. His attention hogging WS announcement. His always saying one thing and then acting to the contrary (like his fake pledge of allegiance to the Yankees after they clinched the wildcard). That’s a lot of baggage right there.
4) You miss the point. He’s been raking so long but not more than other sluggers like Manny or Pujols or etc etc to justiry $30 million. Players should get paid for their amount of production. Not for how long they’ve been around. If that were the case, then Julio Franco deserved a $100 million contract! And Beltran’s contract was NEVER wildly out of line with prevailing salaries when he signed with the Mets. And that’s why Beltran’s contract seems like a bargain just 3 years after he signed it. OTOH, even up to this year I think A-Rod’s been grossly overpaid.
5) What was conjecture was his impact on the clubhouse and team chemistry. But the idea that he is immature and self-absorbed is not pure conjecture. See #3 above.
6) I think it is a big deal when he brings so little else to the table except some negatives. Why overpay him then? What’s to justify the inflated salary? If someone could point to leadership qualities, then that might be a case for him. But AFAIK, he doesn’t have any.
And, no, it’s not just Santana that’s my concern. It’s also other pitching, the baggage, the potential for having a negative impact on the clubhouse, throwing the team’s salary structure out of whack, and the possibility of having cornerstone homegrown players like Reyes and Wright change positions. And you’re reading my posts incorrectly. I still predict no one will pony up $30 million a year for him I’ve never said otherwise.
Schoenweiss was poorly utilized by Willie. He was very effective against lefties, but was terrible against righties. For some reason he used Show for full innings but Feliciano as a LOOGY when it should have been flip flopped. Feliciano really should have been our Okajima.
Obviously Mota hurt the team, he sucked. But he was a middle reliever… I still don’t see him being a significant reason for the team missing the playoffs.
There’s no such thing as clutch. People said that Manning would never win the big one. He just won a super bowl and was the MVP. People said Roy Williams would never win a national title. Scratch that. Some thought the Red Sox were “cursed.” Sorry, please hang up and try again. ARod’s postseason stats are fine. In fact, he had a better postseason than Mr. Clutch, Derek Jeter, and he has comparable postseason numbers to Mr. October, Reggie Jackson. So yeah, naming four players isn’t going to sway me.
Please stop with the unsportsmanlike talk. Our team has rehearsed dances that they do in the on deck circle after they hit home runs. Our RF slapped high fives with everyone down the RF line. Oliver Perez leaps over the line every time he exits the field. We play “You had a bad day” when an opposing pitcher walks off the field after getting shelled. Would it have been different if ARod had tried to barrel over Arroyo? Would he have been “hard nosed” and “gritty” if he had done that rather than “unsportsmanlike” and “bush league.”
Seriously, give me a break on this stuff. You need to stop listening to Michael Kay and stop reading the Post. This stuff is all BS. All that matters is this guy produces every single year. And if the Mets did not have 2 All Stars under 24 holding down the positions ARod plays then I would certainly want him on this team.
1. the site is relatively split with a good portion undecided. Its hardly all anti Arod as you think. There has been a good amount of debate in this forum regarding justification of his compensation. You just continue to repeat.. No One is worth 30 mill per year Period.
2,. Lowell .. theres a good example. All of sudden he is clutch? he had one good run this year but in 2003 with FLA he was abysmal. Yet the Redsox will fork over a four year deal for 51 good post season at bats. If you remember.. FLA insisted he be included with Beckett to get his salary off their payroll. Now he’s a God.- Go figure/. -Arod can turn it all around with One good post season. Do you really think he in incapable of putting up big numbers in the postseason? – The key to your comment was “Since game 3 of the ‘04 ALCS” which is cherry picking.
3. you really believe this we have to agree to disagree. Slapping a ball, a “fake call”, a fight, bashing a competitor and supposed friend in the press (what was this again? anyone but VCarver?– was it his Jeter comments that they arent friends anymore.,. jeez that a stretch), a pledge of allegience after clinching – this is bad? this is “a lot of baggage”?? ok whatever.
4. you say “players should get paid for their production” yet you continue to refer to his “performance relative to his best years. Are you iferring that he hasnt produced over the past 12 plus years? Has Julio franco been hitting 40 plus homers every year of his career?
5. so he is immature and self absorbed. Name a player who has said he is a bad team mate./ He said all the right things when Torre batted him 8th against Detroit. Would Bonds have stood for that? another red herring. And Jeter is A-OK for throwing him under a bus all those times.
6. brings so little else to the table except some negatives? OK .. we’ll have to agree to disagree again that 300+/40+Homers, 140+ RBIs and a IPS over 1000 is bringing nothing to the table
Willie had no choice but to use Schoeneweis for full innings. The starters just didn’t go long enough and the rest of the back end of the bullpen was so suspect. And Schoeneweis had been more than a LOOGY in the past and was signed to pitch full innings. You don’t pay a reliever $11 million for 3 years just to be a specialist.
Also, Willie used Bradford for full innings in over 40 games last year. And he excelled. If Bradford can excel pitching full innings why can’t Schoeneweis who is being paid even more? If he can’t then that’s just a terrible signing. No two ways about it.
And yes, Mota was a significant reason they missed the playoffs. Of course more than half the team played a part. The issue here is whether the faulty part named Mota could have and should have been avoided. I think the answer to that is yes. Easily.
And, yes, there is such a thing as clutch. Definitely. It’s hard to measure but it exists. Fans know who is clutch and who is not. They know Lowell and Beckett are clutch. Jeter is clutch. Ortiz is clutch. And why the heck are you bringing up the Red Sox? I don’t think anyone has ever argued for or against teams being clutch. Just individuals.
I would never call A-Rod’s 2007 postseason more clutch than Jeter’s. He had 1 RBI. The same as Jeter. They both were unclutch in the ALDS.
Surely you’re not equating dances to slapping the ball out of a competitor’s glove? Or bashing a competitor and supposed friend in the media? Or yelling “I got it” when he ain’t got nuthin. I have news for you. Many Yankee players do their own celebratory dances. Joba Chamberlain and Papelbon do their own enthusiastic celebratory moves on the mound when they record a save. But I have never seen a Met or Yankee or any other player stoop to the levels A-Rod has with his slap play. Worse, he said he would do it again. Hard nosed and gritty are fine. Acting like a spoiled little leaguer is not.
And I don’t listen to Kay and rarely read the Post. I think you have to stop drinking Boras’ kool-aid.
Biggie:
1. I believe the split was 47% against A-Rod, and 38% for him. If you split up the undecideds in roughly that proportion, then that brings those who don’t want him to over 50%. Therefore, it’s safe to say the majority of Mets fans don’t want him, even if it’s only by a small margin.
2. No, Lowell isn’t a god. He was just clutch. Very clutch this year. He made the difference in the WS. A-Rod has never been the difference for the Yankees in a series. Yes, I really think A-Rod is incapable of having a big postseason series. And “since ‘04″ would be cherry picking if it didn’t include over 1/3 of his postseason at bats. Furthermore, he didn’t exactly have a stellar ‘97 ALDS, 2000 ALDS, or ‘04 ALDS.
3. Fine. We’ll agree to disagree. I really really believe he’s one of the most unprofessional and immature athletes when it comes to both his on field and off field behavior. There’s virtually nothing to like about him except for his bat.
4. I don’t understand your point here. I have no clue what you mean by “performance relative to his best years.” I don’t believe I ever used that exact phrase so I’m not sure what you are referring to. My point here was that how long a player has been active should have no bearing on his salary. It was in response to your statement: “He makes his salary because of hes been raking since 18 years old.” Well, whether he’s been raking since 16 or since age 25 is irrelevant. He should only be paid according to how much he has raked in the recent past and how much he will be expected to rake for the length of his contract.
5. Well do you really expect current or recent teammates to mouth off about him? Isn’t it enough that plenty of competitors have bashed him on a personal level? And that his Texas teammates had a disparaging nickname for him? I know many of you A-Rod lovers hate Jeter, but reportedly he has little use for A-Rod off the field on a personal level any more. But Jeter never threw him under a bus publicly the way A-Rod personally bashed him. Jeter’s too professional for that.
6. Read my post again. You misunderstood. I said “he brings so little else to the table except some negatives.” That means in addition … in addition to his bat. IOW, for him to earn that $30 million, I think he’d have to bring a lot more to the table than just a little more production than David Wright and Carlos Beltran can give.
talk about manipulating statistics and cherry picking to make a point.. now u can tell where the undecided 17% will fall.. just laughable.lets see what today’s poll shows.
And Lowell is “Clutch”? was he clutch in 2003 with FLA when he hit just above 200 in the post season? was he clutch in Florida when the Marlins practically GAVE him away to get him off the roster? He had a good year in his contract year and all of a sudden he becomes your definition of “Clutch” – more cherry picking.
You conveniently compare Arods WORST year to betran’s BEST year.. again.. AROD worst year is FAR AND AWAY better than most other players in the league can aver aspire to. The guy has a CAREER OPS+ of 147 for chissakes.
To say he brings so little ELSE to the table but some negatives make you sound like a complete kook.
I’m not cherry picking and manipulating statistics. The undecideds were 17%. Now even you want to give 60% of that amount to A-Rod supporters, those who didn’t want A-Rod would still come ahead. Because the balance of that 17% would bring them over the top. But I still maintain that the undecideds would split roughly according to the lines of the other choices. In statistics this is usually more less the case.
My reference to the poll wasn’t even a critical point. You just didn’t understand where the point about A-Rod paying for himself was coming from. So I used the poll to refer to the portion of Mets fans who want A-Rod to refer to the source. It is they, along with Boras who are bringing up this point!
Lowell’s postseason stats show he is more clutch than A-Rod. Being clutch doesn’t mean you are going to hit in every postseason series. Just because Jeter had a bad ‘07 postseason (as did A-Rod) doesn’t negate all his other postseasons. Why would you think that?
And, no. I am not referring to Lowell’s regular season stats to call him clutch. Just his performance in this year’s postseason. There is no cherry picking going on here. I’m being consistent in using a player’s entire postseason history as a way to gauge whether a player is clutch or not (in the absence of a better body of metrics). I’ve never veered from this position.
As for a player being traded, what does that have to do with clutchness, lol? Any attempt by anyone to make any inference of clutchness from a mere trade is out of their mind.
You also have missed the point with my Beltran comparison. It’s not about comparing their entire careers. It’s about comparing their output relative to what they are being paid. In two of the last 4 years, Beltran has had a better year, yet he made just 65% of what A-Rod did and he plays a premier defensive position exceptionally well (so he brings defensive value that A-Rod doesn’t have). Moreover, given their relative ages, any gap- in their offensive production is likely to narrow.
You should also know that neither 2004 or 2006 were A-Rod’s worst years. His worst year was in 1997.
And again. You completely misread this sentence of mine: “…he brings so little else to the table except some negatives.” It means little else apart from the offense! Get it? I am not saying he doesn’t bring offense to the table. I’m saying he brings little else besides that. If you think he brings more than just the offense, I’d like to know what it is.
So today the poll breaks 46% YES and 39% NO woth 15 still undecided.. how are you going to spin that?
Ever hear of the expression .. there are lies, damn lies and statistics?
See .. you can continue to point to any one sample of statistics and say whatever you want:
Lowell is clutch because what he did in 2007 playoffs.. but what about the 2003 playoffs?
Betran has outperfromed Arod in 2 of his last 4 years at 65% of the cost .. But Betrans Career OPS+ is lower than Arod’s WORST OPS+ Year (1997).
Your point is using statisitcs is to manipulate them in small samples to make a point.
ARod has been getting it done on a historic level for 13 plus years.. consistently. year in and year out delivering big numbers.
So he brings little else to the table besides his offense? Well … his offensive performance is on a level makes him one of the best performers in the game today and arguably one of the top ten offensive players in history.
Ill take that on my team any day/ Thats simple.
There is nothing to spin. The poll broke 46% to 40% today, slightly less of a lead for the YES side than the NO folks had in the first poll. Why are you so obsessed with it? It means nothing. The only thing that matters right now is if the Mets are interested in pursuing A-Rod or not. Thank god it appears they are not. A-Rod will have to find some other owner to grossly overpay him.
Ever hear the saying numbers don’t lie? Well they don’t lie in the case of A-Rod or Lowell or Jeter when it comes to clutchness in the postseason.
What about Lowell’s 2003 playoffs? Of course you count it in with all his other postseason experience. Just like you do with A-Rod. You don’t pick and choose like the A-Rod fan boys want to do. As I’ve always said about clutchness, you need to look at the entire postseason record for a player.
So when you do that, Lowell’s production is better than A-Rod’s. It’s evidence that he ’s more clutch.
And why are you looking at career numbers? When a GM gives out a contract, he gives it out based on what he projects a player to do. Not what a player did in the past.. That makes no sense. Players are paid according to what they will do and if a GM is smart he will obtain a contract that is equivalent to what other players of equivalent projected production are getting. So the point about Beltran is that on his current contract vs. A-Rod’s just recently ended contract, Beltran was immensely more cost efficient in 2 out of the last 4 years. That’s my point. And the stats support my point perfectly.
If you want to make a different point, fine, but then don’t try to shoehorn it into my point.
A-Rod may have been doing it longer than many others, but he sure hasn’t been doint it at a very cost effective rate since he signed his contract with Texas.
I don’t care if he has been one of the best players in history. He’s certgainly not worth almost twice what Beltran gets. Or much more than what Manny gets. If you want to overpay, that’s your choice. We’ll agree to disagree on how wise that is.
I’m just glad that the Wilpons are not going to make the poor decision to overpay him like Boras wants. Let the Giants or Dodger do that if they want. Let them sign him to an albatross of a contract. Omar and the Wilpons are too smart to be hoodwinked by Boras.
Your point here is offset by the fact that no team in that era would have had the financial resources that they have now.
That ’s also discounting the ability of players nowadays to pay for themselves in ways they could not in Reggie Jackson’s day.
A-Rod has never shown that he could pay for himself. That’s a big fallacy. In fact, attendance in Texas dropped the 3 years he was there. And it rose in Seattle after he left.
Why should the financial resources of 1 team be a factor in them paying 1 player out of proportion to what he’s worth and what his teammates are getting? You avoid that just for the impact it has on team chemistry even if financial resources aren’t a factor.
And Yankee attendance rose while he was there. The reason why it fell in Texas is because they stunk, because they didn’t have the financial resources to afford ARod and field a solid team around him.
However, the Mets can afford ARod and to afford to field a solid team around him.
As for how much they would pay him, well the other guys should get over it. It’s not like he hasn’t earned it. The guy always delivers. He has 3 MVPs, he is an all around player, and he busts his butt in the offseason, keeping himself in tremendous shape.
I think ARod gets a bad rap. He’s a great player and gets way too much criticism for losses and not enough credit for wins.
Yankee attendance was rising before he came. And many believe it would have risen regardless. And the Rangers stunk before A-Rod got there. They didn’t stink any worse when he was there. The point being, A-Rod alone is never a draw. No one comes to see A-Rod. They come to see a winning team.
The Mets cannot afford A-Rod, Santana, and quality players to put around them while staying at or near the luxury tax threshold and and avoiding becoming the Evil Empire II.
He’s earned a big payday — but not $30 million for 8-10 years at the age of 32. No, he hasn’t earned that. Last year Beltran had a better year than him and he makes roughly 65% what A-Rod made this year.
The guy always deliver? That’s not true. He’s had some pretty tepid years with the Yankees, relatively speaking, and he rarely delivers in the postseason.
I don’t think he gets based for losing. Just for not coming up clutch in the postseason. That’s when it really matters to many fans, including me. And A-Rod more often than not comes up small. That’s another reason why he’s not worth $30 million.
That’s a myth… just keep on perpetuating it. ARod has had two bad postseasons: ‘05 and ‘06… that’s it. This past postseason the Indians barely threw him anything he could hit.
So Beltran has had ONE season better than ARod in his entire career… and even that is debatable. You know what’s great? ARod’s “tepid” seasons are better than most seasons ANYBODY on the Mets could put up. If DWright had the season ARod had in ‘06 we would have been chanting MVP MVP MVP until our throats were sore.
Face it. The guy has 3 MVP awards, plays defense, steals bases, hits for tremendous power, average, drives in runs, scores runs, and yes, always delivers. The guy is money year in and year out. Oh, and he should challenge the home run record, with an up till now untainted background.
I don’t know if he is worth 30 mill, but if anyone could be worth that much, it would be ARod.
Carver,
You can’t truly believe that A-Rod is never a draw. I’ve read your posts, you’re smarter than that. Of course he is. The Texas Rangers have always stunk. With or without A-Rod. They have always stunk because they are a poorly run organization. Not because A-Rod was on the team.
To honestly believe that any team who can afford to field a team around A-Rod is still better off without him is foolish.
sqaud: No, it’s not a myth. Since game 3 of the NLCS in ‘04, his stats have been putrid. And even if you want to give him credit for ‘04, his ‘07 postseason was considered a failure. He had just 1 RBI in 4 games! For $25 million a year, you expect more from a player like that. But regardless of his salary, this postseason was a failure as any Yankee fan would have told you prior to his departure.
And it’s not just 2006 that I think Beltran exceeded A-Rod. Beltran’s 2004 season was also better. I’m going by OPS+ as well as RC/G. Considering Belran plays a premier defensive position, I think his edge over A-Rod is even greater for those 2 years.
And I have news for you. Wright has already had TWO seasons where his OPS+ was greater than A-Rod’s in 2006. TWO!
Now even if Beltran and Wright hadn’t exceeded A-Rod so many times, A-Rod is certainly not 90-300% better or more valuable. No chance, no way.
The guy … plays defense, steals bases, hits for tremendous power, average, drives in runs, scores runs, and yes, always delivers.
He plays average defense at best and he’s worse at third than Wright. His base stealing will decline very rapidly within a few years. His power, average, RBIs will all decline significantly by the middle of his next contract, and no, he doesn’t always deliver. He’s MIA too often when it counts.
CW, give me one solid fact that points to A-Rod being a draw.
And tell me why did attendance drop in Texas when A-Rod was there even though those teams were not significantly worse than the teams before? If A-Rod were a draw, they should have at least seen a small bump, right?
And tell me, why did attendance in Seattle go up after A-Rod left? If A-Rod were a draw all by himself, then it would have either dropped or only stayed the same.
To honestly believe that any team who can afford to field a team around A-Rod is still better off without him is foolish.
The question is whether he is a draw or not on his own. Unless someone puts up some hard incontrovertible evidence showing he is, then I refuse to believe it.
Now you’re posing a different question — whether any team other than the Yankees can afford to risk $30 million on one player and still field a championship caliber team. I say no.
forget about park attendance. Assume the mets will be sold out for the next 10 years.
Do you not think that having a player like ARod chasing Barry Bonds tainted HR Record and Gambling Pete Rose’s All time hit record wearing a met uni will increase the exposure of SNY – the network owned by the principle owner of the Mets?
What is the value of having Arod hit #900 in a Mets uni and forever shown in clips wearing the orange and blue?
YES Network went from an 800 mm valuation to a 3.5+ Billion valuation because the Yanks grew their fan base after 4 WS appearances in 5 years. Do you think the mets – as currently constructed – have a prayer of making that type of run?
This type of exposure is priceless.
Biggie: The park attendance argument has to do with other teams as well. Boras will try to sell any team not selling out that A-Rod will increase attendance. That’s bunk.
And no one is going to show up just for a record chase until the year in which the record is being broken. So you’re saying additional attendance in perhaps year 8 or 9 of A-Rod’s contract will justify the bloat in years 1 to 7? I don’t think so. I also don’t see how A-Rod chase of records will help SNY. Mets fans will watch Mets games on SNY as long as they win, regardless of what A-Rod does. That’s the only thing that will bring in more revenue for the channel.
Do you think the mets – as currently constructed – have a prayer of making that type of run? … This type of exposure is priceless.
No. And neither do the Mets if they sign A-Rod for close to what he wants. And neither do the Yankees as currently constructed. So I don’t see A-Rod changing the equation. You yourself said it was because of the WS appearances, which as we know A-Rod had no impact for the Yankees. So why do you then talk about “exposure?” I assume you’re referring to A-Rod’s future drive to break the records. As I said, they will have little impact on SNY’s value.
Don’t give me OPS+ to support your side of this discussion and then turn around and say ARod only had 1 RBI in the postseason. We all know RBIs are a stat of opportunity.
You do realize ‘04 and ‘06 were his two lowest OPS since 1999 and that he has had four seasons of 160+ OPS, with two of those being over 170. He had another that was 158.
Beltran, 2004 aside, has consistently had an OPS+ under 120. In fact, his career OPS+ is only 115. Granted, Wright’s career OPS+ is a very impressive 138, which is why I would not move David off of 3B. ARod’s career OPS is 147, but he has also played 10 more seasons than Wright.
To say he is average at best is just inaccurate. He has a stronger and more accurate arm than Wright, and while not Brooks Robinson over there, he is definitely above average at the least.
squad, I’ve been very clear about my position on clutchness before. It includes a lot of things which I don’t have access to — like situational hitting stats in the postseason. RBIs in the postseason are to a large extent a result of situational hitting. Therefore, for the purpose of clutchness, I would definitely use RBIs as a metric in the postseason (in the absence of situational hitting stats). And your boy A-Rod has abysmal situational hitting stats since game 4 of the ‘04 ALCS.
BTW, if you want me to dig up an old link to a prior discussion where I’ve laid out my beliefs regarding clutchness as proof, just let me know. I’ll do it.
As for comparing 2 players head to head during the same time period I don’t see any better stat than OPS+. If you think there’s a better one, fine, we’ll use it. Just tell me why you think it is more valid than OPS+ (which by the way they don’t even give for postseason games).
Of course I know where ‘04 and ‘06 rate in A-Rod’s seasons. But that is irrelevant to my point which was that in 2 out the last 4 years Beltran had better performances. What you fail to note also is that A-Rod is 3-4 years older than Beltran so over the next 5-6 years I expect any gap between the two in terms of offensive production to narrow. And Beltran still brings value as a gold glover in a premier defensive position that A-Rod doesn’t. IOW, the difference in value between A-Rod and Beltran over the next 5-6 years is NOT 90-100%. Yet that’s how much more A-Rod will be paid if he becomes a Met.
And no, to say he is average at best is accurate. It’s fact (according to fielding metrics). He may have a stronger and more accurate arm than Wright, but in terms of range and fielding OOZ balls he’s inferior. Wright simply gets to and fields more balls than A-Rod does.
Wright had just 5 more throwing errors than A-Rod the whole season. Yet he fielded around 40 more out of zone balls than A-Rod did. Clearly, by these metrics Wright is the superior fielder at third.
The difference with the two of them is that actually showed up in October…….A Rod turns into Rafael Santana
So Rafael Santana had a career .611 SLG and .413 OBP in the LCS?
If the Mets are hellbent on spending $30 million dollars this year, let them send it to the Twins and buy Santana straight up.
Yeah, sure to be approved by Selig–not to mention the Twins.
Again, this is BASEBALL not hoops guys!
You don’t go out and get and pay for the best player and the
surround him with one or two real good players and a bunch
of role guys and march on to the championship.
More then a third of ’07s payroll is available to Omar, about
40 MIL., with the limited FA market this year, you build around
the foundation—Wright,Reyes,Beltran,Maine and Perez Smartly
while NOT roping yourself into contracts which will for years
limit what else you can get down the road.
This isn’t th NFL, these contracts are set in stone!
IF Mr.April destroys his knee and we lose him for two years,
you’d be looking at a MESS!
I grew up with this team from ‘74-’83, I was not pretty!
No one said you were pretty :-)
More importantly: Are you pretty now?
Haven’t seen this mentioned.
Should the Mets be concerned about how this affects DWright?
The kid IS the franchise player and moving him off 3B can have quite the negative impact on him.
If he were to continue down the career path he is currently on, he would have a really good shot at going into the Hall of Fame. However, take him off third and put him in LF or at 1B and his numbers are less impressive. He probably doesn’t make as many All Star games (especially at 1B) and he probably isn’t considered one of the game’s premier players anymore.
Call me crazy, and I am sure some of you will, but whether or not the Mets decide to sign ARod could have a HUGE affect on DWright’s legacy and even how much money he makes himself during his career.
Personally, I was a bit torn on getting ARod and I have made plenty of posts as to how he COULD fit in. But in the end, I don’t think I would want him.
DWright looked great in the 3-hole at the end of the season and Beltran looked good hitting cleanup. We’ll have a full season of Milledge in RF and most likely a full season of Castillo hitting second. I also expect Delgado to have a big bounce back year in his walk year, especially since he will be able to work out this offseason, rather than rehabbing his wrist and elbow. In my opinion, this lineup should be pretty dangerous in its own right next year. Oh yeah, I didn’t even mention Alou, who still crushed the ball at 41 years young.
DW is not a good 3rd baseman.
Now Mets have to sacrifice their team for his legacy? Whatever….
David is actually a very good 3B, although his throwing can be erratic. But he is FAR superior than guys like Braun and Cabrera, who are absolute butchers.
Think about it. You’re the franchise player. You came up through this organization. You may win an MVP this year. All of a sudden your team is looking to bring in someone who plays your position and they want YOU to move, even though this is your team.
This isn’t RBI Baseball. These decisions aren’t made in a vacuum. There are factors to be weighed that go beyond what happens between the lines. Plus, Wright is only 24 years old. He’s only going to get better.
Bottom line, do we really need ARod so much to risk ruffling Wright’s feathers?
Wright has already said on the record that he would play anywhere on the field if the Mets could get A-Rod.
A move to first could be beneficial to both the team and to Wright.
I don’t see how any of this ruffles his feathers.
Just because he said it doesn’t mean its true. David always says the right things to the media because he’s a sharp guy.
How is a move to 1B beneficial to Wright? He’ll never make another All Star team. He is more valuable at 3B than 1B.
Plus, he is our team leader and this is his tea, he could win an MVP, and the face of the franchise. If anyone should move it should be ARod.
DW will survive. Although given the players involved, I thknk A Rod makes more sense to move over to 1B.
Also, all of the talk about value for your $$ is nice. But it overlooks a key point.
While economically it is wonderful to get $110 million of “production” for a $100 million payroll, base ball wise (you know, wins) it is better to get $150milion in output from a $200million payroll. Not as efficient, but it does put a better product on the field.
So Arod, or Santana for that matter, might not be “worth” 25-20 million, they still make a team better, assuming the other pieces stay the same.
The Yankees can pay ridiculous salaries for A rod and Clemens, becasue they have the payroll to spend whatever it takes at other spots.
Texas, SF, etc. don’t (or won’t) spend like that, so they end up with 1 big money guy, surrounded largely by stiffs.
Most intriguing landing spot for A-Rod mentioned is Florida. They get $30Million/year in revenue sharing. They can trade Cabrerra for top level prospects and team A-Rod with Hanley Ramirez for years. This could get them their new stadium
How many Mets are in the Hall of Fame?
Um 1. Tom Seaver. I think that’s it.
Doesn’t anyone else find that pathetic for a franchise that has been around almost 50 years.
The Mets have never had an everyday hall of fame player.
They will soon.
Michael Joseph Piazza.
I also don’t see how A-Rod chase of
records will help SNY. Mets fans will watch Mets games on SNY as long
as they win, regardless of what A-Rod does.
Wow. This may be a lost cause but here goes for everyone else out there.
Hard core mets fans will always watch the team — this is your “base”. Indeed there is no guarantee that hardcore fans will fill a stadium. Nor is it a guarantee that hardcore fans by themselves will increase ratings to a significant enough level to increase cable system buys, increase advertising and exposure in the press and increase sales of merchandise. Thus increasing the VALUE OF A franchise and its associated Media properties (nymets.com and SNY TV) is dependant on increasing the interest in the team and ultimately it’s fan base.
The only way to drive the total number of fans up (and I mean nationally and globally and in the metro area as well) is to Win World Series or have historical significance (eg records broken – witness Mcguire in StL or Bonds in San Fran). Like it or not – there are fans out there that will only support a winning team and there are fans that will only take interest in a team if there is a reason (eg Home Run Record). There are also potential fans out there who are too young to have a preference in their team – and success over the next five – ten years will influence their team choices.
If you dont think this is the way to build value in the mets franchise and the mets media properties then I dont know what else to say.. You are maybe the only person in the US who has expressed this opinion. Id like you hear your formula for increasing a fan base.
I think – and I assume if the Mets sign Arod they think – the Mets are today one big move away from establishing a run of success. One power player to combine with a young core and experienced veterans to make a run at a National League pennant and a World Series. The only player of that ilk that is available is a ARod. Johan Santana is maybe available for the right price but the mets – as currently constructed – do not have the assets to make a trade happen.
It is my feeling.. any anyone else can feel free to comment — that if the Mets add a Bat like Arod to their lineup that they are clearly the dominant team in the NL and arguably can keep up with any AL team. the xposure I refer to is as a perennial WS contender. A consistently dominant team is clearly the only way to expand the fan base and thus expand Exposure.
So lets say.. hypothetically.. that all your assumptions are right. And the Mets DONT sign Arod and wait until 2009 to go at Santana — who could be that level of dominant player but IS NOT availble to the Mets today given our chips to deal.
under your assumption – JS- has possibly been traded to a new team for TOP TOP prospects but somehow wont sign with them (chances of this?you say 80%? I disagree) Santana has previously expressed a desire to play for a WINNER.. He only mentioned the mets because Luis Castillo was traded here at the deadline putting the kaybosh on his teams pennant hopes…. well now, to make your assumption work, we have to carry another old half broken down player for another long term contract to be Johan’s NY friend. But this team that has mortgaged its future by trading for Santana in season (even after the Beltran fiasco in Houston) wont give up the $$ or the years to make it happen.. If read your comments that JS is this altruistic player who wont go for the most money.. total bunk.. He will go where he has the best chance to win and the Mets (who under your assumption let Arod go somewhere else) barely miss the playoffs because you feel – as previously written – the mets dont have a dominant team as currently constructed.
So now it comes to dollars and cents to show Johan your commitment to winning… How much are you willing to commit in dollars and years to a 30 Year Old undersized power starting pitcher? Do you really think that Santana on the open market in 2009 will not command 25 million a year for a minimum of 7 years? Do you want to take the risk that a six foot tall power pitcher over 30 years old will continue to toss 200 plus innings and win 20 games a year without injury? Of course in 2009 you have a broken down castillo you have to hold on to, you have No Pedro Martinez , No Mosies Alou, No Carlos Delgado…(unless you resign them for more big $$ at an increased age — remember this commitment to winning!!!) Of course you have an extended plan to replace them as welland add another power bat to the outfield (who I have no idea).. and stay with in a 115 million dollar budget you’ve consistently stated as the only reasonable number for a franchise ad infinitum.
I think you are generally well thought out in your statistical analysis. But I feel the benefits of grabbing a player of Arod’s talents THIS YEAR far out weighs the benefits of getting an over 30 PITCHER on a long term commitment next year.
In terms of contract demands, The Wilpons have a stated policy against offering long term contracts to Pitchers. Would they break this for Santana after his 30th Birthday? Do you think the mets would match a seven year deal – which will almost certainly be the price in years for a top flight pitcher such as Santana at in excess of 20 mil a year? Who has the better chance of producing in their 35th Year? An undersized left handed power pitcher who came out of the rule 5 draft abyss to win 2 Cy Young awards and turn it on after his 24th Birthday — Or a Power Bat who has been consistently raking major league pitching since 18 years old and is consistently in the top of MLB leaders and has NEVER been hurt.
In my opinion the choice is clear. I know your opinion wont change.. thats fine. Hope we do well either way obviously but I’d rather bet on the sure thing that the long shot. Those are my statistics.
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