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In a recent update for FOXSports.com, Ken Rosenthal tells us to forget about the Mets trading SS Jose Reyes to the Twins for LHP Johan Santana.
In fact, Rosenthal writes…
“Maybe forget about the Mets getting Santana, period. Though the Mets are deep in outfield prospects, their top young pitchers – right-handers Mike Pelfrey and Philip Humber – aren’t as highly regarded as the Yankees. And the Twins presumably would want elite pitching back for Santana.”
Meanwhile, in Newsday, citing ‘a person familiar with Minnesota’s operations,’ Ken Davidoff writes that the Yankees will be asked to part with All-Star 2B Robinson Cano in a deal for Santana.
…i’ve said it before, and i’ll say it again, if the Mets want to trade for a young starting pitcher, and intend to use Lastings Milledge to get him, they should aim towards the Bay Area and Baltimore, not Minnesota and Miami…
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What mets genius hasn’t flipped out about how he wants santana? i thought he had some crazy 9 team deal to get him.
Not denying the Yanks could easily get Santana if they wanted too.. but if it does happen I may have to stop watching baseball.
Of all of Omar’s faults, his draft and prospect philosophy is starting to hurt the organization in a big way
Even if the Yankees can pull off the trade, do you really think Santana won’t test the free agent market next year?
It would make sense for him to end up in the NL if he wants to extend his career.
What’s to test if hes on the Yankees? Like anyone’s going to outbid them?
In terms of his career longevity, it makes sense for him to switch to the NL at some point. And the AL East is a punishing division for pitchers.
Given some of the big contracts coming off the books next season (Delgado, Alou, possibly Pedro), the Mets should be able to match any Yankees offer in terms of $. It will probably come down to contract length.
yea, but the problem with that is the Yankees have even more salary coming off the books then: Giambi, Mussina, Pavano, Pettite (if he even plays ths year), plus all the money freed up from A-Rod
Exactly.. no one is going to outbid the Yanks.. and now that they’ve been flexing their dollars in the draft they have prospects galore to trade for him as well..
If the want Cano and Hughes and that gets it done? For the best pitcher in baseball?
To me that’s a no brainer, Cano has no glove, I’m sure they can find a 2b, and they will always hit
……santana’s agent is not boras. If he gets traded this winter it is (very) safe to assume that any team that is going to give up a king’s ranson to get him will be granted a window in which to sign him.
…its also (very) safe to assume that any team giving up a king’s ranson in prospects to get him will also be willing to make him the highest paid pitcher in history.
I put the odds at least 3-1 that if Santana gets traded he will sign a long term extension at the time of the trade.
Peace of mind rather than hoping for even more bucks come free agency is worth a lot (especially for a pitcher).
I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the Mets from the race just yet. The Yankees will also be going after Teixiera (with Giambi gone) so it may be that they will have to make a choice. And Yankee Stadium hasn’t always been a great destination for pitchers. If Santana is unhappy there, or realizes a long term contract with the Yanks means facing the Red Sox offense 19 times/year, he may consider other options.
Plus, the Mets aren’t exactly poor. With the new stadium opening up in 2009, they Wilpons will be looking to make a splash. Not saying it will be easy, but it’s not outside the realm of possibility.
with the amount of dead weight coming off the Yankees payroll over the next two years and given their bloated salary structure – they can afford Tex and Johan.. sad but true.
Giambi alone is 25 Mil.
I don’t see why the Yankees would deal Hughes and another pitcher and Cabrera for Santana. I mean, Santana may be all that and a slice of pie but the fact is, Joba and Hughes both have electric stuff. They would make a great 1-2 punch for years to come. Their combo will win more games than Johan, and Cabrera is a very nice centerfielder.
But I guarantee that Tex will be a Yankee after 08, and Santana would just test the free agent market after 08 and sign with them.
Then, of course, they would need a third baseman and possibly fish out Piggy Cabrera.
On another note, considering that the Mets have no chance at Johan, I think there are still 3 somewhat possible options:
1. Test to see if Blanton is available at higher stakes (last year the cost was Milledge) and trade Milledge and Heilman for him and sign Fukudome, Lo Duca, Castillo, Castro.
2. Sign Lo Duca, Castro, Castillo and Fukudome, trade Pelfrey, Humber, Heilman and Milledge for Bedard.
3. Sign Lo Duca, Castro, Castillo, trade Milledge, Gomez, Pelfrey, Humber, Heilman and Kunz for Cabrera and sign Carlos Silva.
All of these options provide a solid young core for the Mets to come, and are SOMEWHAT realistic.
For option #3 nix Kunz, just Heilman, Milledge, Pelfrey, Gomez, Humber.
Extrawhite….I couldn’t agree with you anymore. After the brutal way the season ended, now it appears we have to sit back and watch other teams get better because our prospects don’t stack up with the rest of the league. I love all that Omar’s done, but honestly the Pelfrey, Humber, Kevin Mulvey’s and Eddie Kuntz’s just aren’t going to get it done. I don’t know what our scouting department is doing? All I have to say is that I really hope some of these international signings pan out, otherwise we’re in trouble. The free agent market is a joke, you have to build from within, just look at the players available this year and the money being spent on average guys, its crazy.
I said it in an earlier post, Pelfrey and Humber both have a low “perceived” value because they havent really been given the chance to shine. yes Pelfrey had his stint but was immediately sent back down to AAA, but when he came back up he did much better.
perhaps they just need to both be in the major league level and will hopefully raise their value this year? Hopefully this will either put them in a better position to be traded, or they pan out and pitch real well
One huge factor I believe that the media is overlooking is that Santana has a full no-trade clause in his current deal. Therefore, he will dictate who he gets traded to. I have no idea if he has a preference, but Minnesota might be forced to take a lesser package if Santana decides he doesn’t want to go somewhere. Therefore, whoever has the best prospects might not matter. If Santana decides he’d rather go to Team X for instance, Minnesota might be forced to either make a deal with Team X even though Team Y is a better package, or ride out his current deal and get nothing in return. It’s an angle the media has overlooked in my opinion.
I agree. Everyone assumes that the “window” Santana would receive to negotiate with the bidding team will be adequate to lock him up long-term. No one is addressing the scenario you spell out.
First, it might mean the Twins have to settle for a lesser package of prospects, if the deal is only for a year.
Or, second, it might mean they have to defer to Johann’s long-term wishes if they want to get a top package in exchange. Either case COULD favor the Mets, if he really wants to be here.
Santana doesnt have a “Full no trade” clause in his contract for 2008. He had one in 2007 based on his 2006 Cy Young.
If he finishes in the top 3 in the 2007 Cy Young he has a no trade for 2008 – otherwise he can choose 12 teams NOT to be traded to.
I think Sabbathia, Carmona, Beckett and J. Lackey are the front runners for 2007
0-7 is immediately sent down? Pelfrey hasn’t shown any command of his pitches. Humber has very limited “stuff”. The Mets have no comparabel high end pitching coming that compares to the Yankees Dodgers or Angels.
why pelfrey or humber? send perez and his 15 wins to Minny. He did quite well against the yankees this year. He has the stuff to deal with American League lineups. He might always be crazy but he is no bum. I couldlive with Maine and Pedro and Johan and whoever. (Not Livan or Blanton or Muniz). Plus, Oliver is very young.
my guess is the Twins would want Maine because he is controlled and cheaper for so much longer than OP..
OP is FA in 2009 so that puts them right back at square one…in having to pay $ to a pitcher.
and you forgot to mention who OP’s got as his agent, none other than the infamous Scott Boras.
Trading a 15 or 16 game pitcher and then more for an older 20 win pitcher makes very little sense.
where are we aiming in Baltimore exactly? Eric Bedard isn’t available, is he? That guy would win the cy young pitching in shea.
Oh and Omar would be absolutely lambasted if he ever traded Reyes, even if it was for a guy like Santana…probably even if they signed A-Rod to replace him…
The only people who have been talking about a Reyes-for-Santana trade have been in the media. I have not heard one direct quote from a Mets’ official talking about trading Reyes. Reyes, Wright and Beltran are the untouchable trio for the Mets.
Why would any member of Met management go on record as to wanting to trade Reyes before a trade happens?
come on, use your sense.
supposedly he could be…his contract status is in jeopardy. I merely heard this in passing, so it’s not the gospel.
I would trade a lot of the farm for Bedard
Milledge, Heilman, Pelfrey and Humber for Bedard, sign Kosuke Fukudome
Milledge, Heilman, Pelfrey, Humber and Gomez for Cabrera, sign Carlos Silva.
Milledge and Heilman for Blanton, sign Kosuke Fukudome.
I hope they don’t point at Miami, since they don’t have any “ace quality” pitching down there. You can’t seriously mean Willis, do you?
I may be a voice in the wilderness, but I think Santana is going to be a bad deal for someone. He may have peaked, and while still be a good pitcher, he isn’t going to be Gooden or Gibson in his prime. More Al Leiter in his better days.
If you are trading the farm, trade less (or get mroe back) for someone that can give you the same (or close to same) production, but also bring more back in the trade.
I agree.
ditto
al leiter, huh? al leiter had 200 k’s twice in his career. santana’s already done it 4 times. the guy’s nasty. what evidence is there that he has peaked?
al leiter, hahaha.
Stickgy, THANK YOU for saying that.
I’m not a big Santana fan either. I think he is overhyped. Here’s why:
1. Lifetime 3.22 ERA. Same as Brendan Webb. Worse than Pedro and Oswalt.
2. 30+ starts each of last 4 seasons, but only total of 6 complete games.
3. Might be on the downslope. 2007 season was 15-13, gave up more HRs, hits than he ever did before while pitching fewest innings in 4 years.
4. Innings per start is declining. 2007 was about 6.6 so BP will still be needed for 2+ innings on average.
5. WHIP is still great, but has eclipsed 1.07 and is rising. Highest ERA in last four years last year.
I would still love him on the team, but I don’t see him as a “savior.” After all, even if he wins 25 games, we still need 70+ other wins (without him) to get into postseason.
1.) 3.22 ERA in the AL, not the NL. that’s pretty damn good.
2.) That’s better than a CG per season – which is a huge improvement for the Mets staff (and good for the pen).
3.) 15-13 due to bad team – other stats possibly troubling, but he’s still young.
Agreed he’s not savior – but he’s a huge step in right direction. Too bad we don;t have the chips to get him.
but he’s still young.
He’ll be 30 when he throws his first pitch opening day 2009.
30 isn’t young for a pitcher.
im happy to see the mainstream press coming around to the conclusion that Melky Cabrera aint that good..
The Spanks are going to have to cough up at least Cano and Hughes for a shot at Santana.. And they’ve got the payroll room to sign him to a record breaker — with Pettitte leaning towards retirement it looks like a good match.. Dodgers could be players too.
Id much rather the Mets focus on the Oakland duo of Harden and Haren (NOT Blanton) or the O’s for a package of Bedard and Ramon’s overweight contract.
Goes to show there’s pitching available if you are creative. No need to punt 2008 and wait around til 2009.
Yeah, but Santana has a de facto no-trade clause because if he doesn’t want to go somewhere, he will say so and not sign a long term contract. No one is going to give up 3 legit prospects for a rental.
Also, as for the protecting prospects, it’s worked pretty well (See Reyes, Wright)
“…i’ve said it before, and i’ll say it again, if the Mets want to trade for a young starting pitcher, and intend to use Lastings Milledge to get him, they should aim towards the Bay Area and Baltimore, not Minnesota and Miami…”
Matt, where’s the problem? Is it Omar that’s not listening to you or are the Wilpons giving you trouble?
:-)
there are maybe 4 teams that can put both a player and financial package together for him…(Dodgers, Angels, Yankees, Boston)
Based on other teams successes in trading big players for many smaller highly touted prospects I dont think there will be a huge back lash in Minny for trading him.. If they can get a young all star, a highly touted pitching prospect and maybe one other part.. why wouldnt they do
i dont see Johan as the Mike Hampton type.. It’ll most likely be the Dodgers or Yankees — without a negotiating window and either team will surely meet his price.
The general thought now is that the Twins think pretty highly of their home-grown pitchers, and probably will want good position player prospects in return instead of some stud SP/RP guys.
The bad news is that doesn’t really help us that much, as F-Mart is a bit too raw to be dealt, and we really don’t have any great infield prospects. But on a good note, the Yankees really don’t match up well for that kind of a trade either, at least in comparison to some other teams.
The Mets still have room to maneuver in the Johann sweepstakes, if not this year then certainly next. Biggie lists the only four teams with BOTH the prospects and the resources to lock up Johann long-term. Let’s say one or two of the teams drop out–Boston and the Yankees, say, because they have more pressing needs and are unwilling to pay the price in prospects.
That would leave two or three teams bidding with both the Twins and with the pitcher himself for a trade-and-sign. One of those teams may sign ARod and be unwilling to take on another huge contract in the same year. Which leaves one or two teams that match up well with Minnesota.
The main point to remember is that Johann has NO incentive whatsoever to accept a long-term deal with the Twins’ trading partner. It’s not like Dice-K last year, who had one chance to sign with a ML team and was basically forced to accept a below-market deal. If Santana is offered 4/100 or 5/120 by LA, he can easily decide that he’ll get a 6-year contract on the open market and nix a long-term deal. The Twins could STILL trade him, but it will have to be for a rental package of prospects, rather than an elite package. That’s where the Mets could come in. This year or next.
The only way to determine true market value is to let test the open market. A lone team bidding against itself will not do that.
The main point to remember is that Johann has NO incentive whatsoever to accept a long-term deal with the Twins’ trading partner.
Precisely. But some mistakenly think otherwise or that it’s almost a foregone conclusion that he’ll sign with the team that trades for him.
As I’ve been saying for awhile, I think there’s at least an 80% chance that he’s a free agent this time next year.
He’s not A-Rod and his agent isn’t Boras, so while money will matter a whole lot, it won’t be so important that he’ll let it get it in the way of him choosing a place that’s better suited for him. That’s the difference between Johan and A-Rod.
I also agree that if he’s traded it’s likely for a rental package and the Mets could very well sneak in there. But if not, then just wait till after the season. And if he does sign with someone else next winter, there are plenty of good pitchers eligible for free agency a year from now, unlike this year. So Johan isn’t the only option.
No need to do something drastic that they’ll regret like trade Reyes which is a crazy crazy idea.
I’m relieved you also see this aspect of the situation, which is almost completely missing from most predictions I’ve read in the media. Everyone acts as if:
a. The Twins will be able to name their price, and
b. Johann will obligingly sign with whatever team the Twins’ front-office picks for him.
But given that the last 2 major pitchers to hit the open market–Dice-K and Zito–produced bids that FAR exceeded anyone’s expectations should give Santana serious reservations about engaging in bidding with only one team, when he’ll have his pick of the litter next year.
And as I said, I don’t think it’s just about the money with Johan. I think he’ll be more like Beltran in his deliberations. Someone who has other considerations high on his list. And Beltran IS a Boras client.
If they want to include John Maine they can likely strike a deal that doesnt include Reyes. I wouldnt like to see him go, but he is clearly better than the prospects anyone has, including the Yanks.
would you do Maine, Milledge, Gomez and FMart for Santana?
that’d get it done.
then sign him for 8 years & $160 mil
Me personally, I would rather give up Oliver Perez than Maine. I think Maine will be the better pitcher in the future. I would gladly give up Perez, Milledge, Gomez, etc…for Santana.
I think 8 years is alot to give a pitcher though. I would rather give him more per year and less years.
Perez is far less valuable as he only had one year left before he is a free agent. And its a more expensive year than the first of Maine’s three years before he will be a FA…
Thats way way too much, no one would give up that much.
Don’t forget …
Peter Greenberg has a long and close relationship with the Mets. His clients have been very happy with the Mets. Santana has publicly expressed interest in the Mets, and he’s friendly with both Reyes and Castillo. Pitching in the NL and in a pitcher friendly park should be an incentive. All these things should work in the Mets favor.
Yup, I mean I am not going to say this is a slam dunk, we all know how Arod 2001 went and Zito last year (Zito got WAY too much anyway), but it looks good for the Mets.
You just have to hope Johan is a little greedy and willing to wait until Unrestricted Free Agency. I think once he is on the open market the Mets will give him anything to ensure that he is a Met when CitiField opens up next year.
At least we will know where the $20M/year Citibank coughed up will be spent if the Mets land Johan. Might as well call it Johan Field, err maybe not.
I agree. All those are excellent points, and if he does actually hit free agency, then I think we have an excellent chance to sign him. I’m sure the Yankees will be there at the end as well, but we have enough money to keep him from them if we so choose.
The question is, doesn he become a FA? I know you (VCarver) have put this (in your opinion) at an 80% likelyhood. And though I agree that he PROBABLY will test the waters, I am not nearly as confident as you.
It all boils down to what team trades for him. If it meets all his criteria, then there’s a good chance he’ll sign. I can see the Yanks or Dodgers both having a good chance of doing a trade and sign. We would also have a good chance at keeping him if we could somehow figure out a package that Twins would accept.
This could play out a number of ways, but I think our best bet, as someone said earlier, is to either A.) hope he gets traded to a place that doesn’t meet all his criteria or B.) hope the Twins keep him because they’re still in the race and he hits the open market.
I, for one, will be rooting hard for the Twins this year.
very reasoned.
If the Twins keep Santana than the Mets have a shot because he most likely wont sign there.
Given they lose Hunter i’d think they’re in rebuild mode.. and Johan brings back big pieces.. from teams that can
A> Afford to sign him and
B> have the “intangibles” to appeal to him. and
C> have the pieces to pull it off.
The Twins will be giving about $10~15M combined for Cuddyer and Morneau for this upcoming season, $6M to Nathan and $6.25M to Mauer.
I don’t think a small market team like the Twins decides to go into “rebuilding” mode when they are giving over $20M to four players for next year. The Twins are likely going to hold on to Johan (which is another $13.25M for 2008 on top of the aforementioned $20M) and take one last shot with this core of players, minus Hunter.
It’s not like the Twins are garbage without Hunter, they still have Johan, Liriano is coming back, Garza, Bonser, they have a cache of good arms coming through their system. I mean their offense won’t be great, but it was never that good, even in the seasons when they made the postseason.
I don’t understand the wait till 2009 mentality that many on this board have. What about 2008? Are we writing off the season already?
I would literally offer every prospect we have. I have been a Met fan since 1983. How many “Prospects” have become stars. I would count 4. Strawberry, Gooden, Reyes and Wright. Am I missing anyone? The point is, our prospects rarely amount to anything. We have a chance to get argueably the best pitcher in baseball, who is still in his prime. Assuming we could sign him to an extension of course. To me it’s a no brainer.
I believe I saw a quote once from Omar, that said, GM’s that hold onto prospects too long, will get fired with those prospects.” I hope he still thinks that way.
Because Joey it doesn’t really matter what the Mets offer the Twins. It only matters if Johan is willing to accept the deal presented to him.
The Twins can accept any deal they want but more than likely Johan will turn it down and wait until he’s a free agent
If the Yankees lose Cano to get to Santana, they will have lost their future no.3 hitter for a pitcher acquired for 1 year. With that in mind, be prepared to beat the Yankees’ $30M/yr.
The good thing is that there are other elite pitchers available in ‘09 and I don’t think the Yankees are willing to pony up one of the best 2nd baseman in the AL.
I know Greenberg has other clients besides Reyes and Santana.
Greenberg repped Fonzie all through his career with the Mets. And he maintained Greenberg as his agent after the Mets decided they didn’t want to bring Fonzie back. Fonzie was one of their first big clients.
I don’t have the entire list of Mets who are/were repped by Greenberg but I’m sure it’s more than Fonzie, Reyes, and Hidalgo.
I’ve seen Reyes hang with Santana during the All-Star games and when they shot their Spike Lee commercial together.
The Mets let Fonzie go because they knew he was wached up. Edgardo was one of my favorite Mets of all time, but letting him go was the absoulute right move to make at the time.
There was zero animosity with Fonzie’s situation.
That bit of the Mets history will have no bearing on any possible Santana negotiatons.
Yeah, I wasn’t sure if Biggie was trying to imply that Fonzie left here on bad terms. Nothing could be further from the truth and the Mets even brought him back for a spell in ‘06 though he never got past the minors. His brother still works in the organization and is highly regarded.
Fonzie loved it here so much he paid for ads on cabs after he left to thank the fans.
He has always been one of my favorite Mets too.
my point was at the time Fonzi wanted to come back and would accept less to come back and the Mets jettisoned him.. And Greenberg – who supposedly had such a great relationship with the organization – couldnt broker a deal to put his player where he wanted to be… and had him move across the country to get work..
I seem to remember that Fonzi was a little pissed that he got jerked around the infield and left for dead by the organization he was loyal to.
.
and he thanked the Fans – not the Organization.
he came back after he was washed up – I liked him as well.. but he’ll probably end up on the Balco list.
I don’t get your point. The Mets didn’t want Fonzie anymore. Just because they have a good relationship with an agent doesn’t mean he dictates their roster. That makes zero sense. You think relationships between teams and agents are harmed just because a team no longer wants a player? If that were the case, no team would have a good relationship with any agent ever.
Fonzie was not pissed at the organization. Was he upset that he wasn’t brought back? Of course. But not pissed or angry.
And whether or not he ends up on the “Balco List” (I assume you mean the Mitchell list) is not even germane to this discussion. Why did you even bring it up?
Actually I meant the Balco Client list.. thanks..
You brought up Peter Greenberg’s “long and close relationship” with the Mets.
Ive never hear the relationship characterized as that and looked for examples. Fonzie.. Hidalgo.. you knew of no one else.
Greenberg clearly couldnt leverage his “long and close relationship” with the organization to get his “first significant player” a deal with the team.
Hidalgo was a disaster.. traded for them signed with texas six months later.
Other than Reyes – who was signed as an Amateur FA and subsequently signed a contact to buy out his arb years..- what else is the basis of this characterization?
The BALCO client list was released years ago. No more names are expected from it. The Mitchell report is what’s expected to blow the lid off the kettle.
I’ve read where others characterized the Greenberg-Mets relationship as very good. Beat reporters and the Greenbergs themselves. I don’t believe there has ever been a contentious negotiation between them and the Mets. Of course maybe, unlike most agents, they are just loathe to publicize their differences. But I think not. From everything I’ve read, the relationship is excellent.
Fonzie, Hidalgo, Cedeno, and Reyes … and I’m sure there are more. I just don’t know offhand the names of the others, but I recall seeing the Greenbergs’ names mentioned frequently in relation to many Mets players over the years.
Greenberg has already leveraged his close and long relationship with the Mets to get Fonzie a deal with the team. You must have misunderstood their relationship. The Greenbergs represented Fonzie from his start with the Mets.
What does Hidalgo’s performance have to do with the Greenbergs’ good relationship with the Mets? I am not aware that one of the prerequisites of having good relationships is that the player HAS to perform well. No one can guarantee that. Your statement is truly puzzling.
Reyes, Cedeno, Hidalgo, and Fonzie are the basis for my characterization and probably represent for the Greenbergs a good chunk of their fees over the last few years. The Greenbergs don’t have that many high profile clients. Most of them are probably at the minor league level or are bench/utility players. So the Mets have had a good share of the ones they have had.
The Greenbergs don’t have that many high profile clients. Most of them are probably at the minor league level or are bench/utility players
Huh?? Do you just make this stuff up to support your point?
here’s an article about him in Forbes:
Baseball’s Best Agents
http://www.forbes.com/2007/06/20/mlb-greenberg-baseball-biz_cz_ps_0622baseballagents.html
Peter Greenberg, who, along with his brother Edward, runs New York City’s Peter E. Greenberg & Associates, tops our first ever proprietary list of baseball’s powerbrokers. The Greenberg brothers are fluent in Spanish and have made inroads in recruiting and representing Latin American players, particularly those from Venezuela, who now make up 80% of their client list. On average, Greenberg clients earn almost two and a half times the salary of statistically similar players in the free agent marketplace.
And exactly what in that article contradicts what I said :?: They have roughly 50-60 clients. And the majority of them are NOT on the level of where Fonzie, Cedeno and Reyes are — all of whom are starters.
My original statement still stands.
And exactly what in that article contradicts what I said .. the majority of them are NOT on the level of where Fonzie, Cedeno and Reyes are — all of whom are starters.
The Greenbergs are major major players as Agents.. they have MANY MANY quality clients.. Indeed they were profiled by Forbes as one of the Best Agents in MLB. in the aritcle I referenced/
They have many players above the level of Fonzie, Cedeno and Reyes..
Complete mischarecterization
I never said the Greenbergs weren’t major players as agents. I never said they didn’t have many quality clients. Being profiled as one of the Best Agents in MLB does not necessarily mean they have “mostly” high profile clients. A minor leaguer can be a quality client but not necessarily a high profile one (or a lucrative one).
My statement still stands that the “majority” of them or “most” of them are not on the level of Fonzie and Reyes and Cedeno. Do you know what “majority” and “most” mean?
Comment by VCarver
2007-11-12 18:17:12
I never said …the “majority” of them or “most” of them are not on the level of Fonzie and Reyes and Cedeno. Do you know what “majority” and “most” mean?
here’s what you did say
Reyes, Cedeno, Hidalgo, and Fonzie are the basis for my characterization and probably represent for the Greenbergs a good chunk of their fees over the last few years.
The Greenbergs don’t have that many high profile clients. Most of them are probably at the minor league level or are bench/utility players. So the Mets have had a good share of the ones they have had.
heres what the article I linked to says — which is contradictory to your above statement..
No. 1:
Peter Greenberg (Peter E. Greenberg & Associates)
Score: 244
New York City
Value of 2007 Major League contracts: $66 million
Peter Greenberg has built the best track record among baseball’s biggest agents by focusing on foreign-born players. His entire 20-man roster of current and recently retired ballplayers hail from baseball hotbeds Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Panama and Japan.
Standout Deal: After the 2006 season he capitalized on Detroit’s first pennant in 22 years by inking Tigers infielder Carlos Guillen to a four-year, $48,000,000 contract
would you still say the majority of their clients are “bench/utility players” and that the Mets have had a “good share of the high profile clients” the Greenbergs have had?
So if the source YOU used is accurate. Then I stand by my statement.
So what is the backup for your statement that Roger Cedeno, Richard Hidalgo, Jose Reyes and Edgardo Alfonso represent a good chunk of their fees over the last few years..
18.0 Cedeno
20.7 Alfonzo
23.3 Reyes
So that’s fees off of at least $62 million. I would certainly characterize that as a good chunk of their fees.
Again, I stand by every one of my statements — unless your initial statement about the size of their client base is wrong.
Vcarver wrote:
Fonzie was not pissed at the organization. Was he upset that he wasn’t brought back? Of course. But not pissed or angry
incidentally, I found this article on the NYT..
October 18, 2002
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D07E2DD133DF93BA25753C1A9649C8B63
”We fully anticipated them making an offer,” Greenberg said. ”I’m surprised and disappointed. Edgardo’s also disillusioned. After all he did for them, he feels hurt they didn’t make an offer.”
pretty strong words… not exactly an amicable breakup.
nice try but Hidalgo, Fonzi and Cedeno haven’t sniffed a MLB clubhouse since 2005
Id bet that the Greenbergs don’t even return their calls
All players are disappointed when their old teams don’t want them back. They wouldn’t be human if they weren’t. That doesn’t mean they are angry or pissed with them.
And even if Fonzie were angry at the Mets, that doesn’t mean his agent and the Mets would stop having the excellent relationship they now enjoy. Why would they?
Huh, what relevance does your last comment have to the discussion we just had?
My original statement concerned the fees that Cedeno, Aflfonze, and Reyes produced for the Greenbergs. Those numbers are accurate whether or not Fonzie is an active major leaguer or not. What, you think Greenberg has to return the fees once they play for the LI Ducks, lol?
And they still represent Fonzie and Cedeno and you better bet they’d return their calls. if for nothing else out of courtesy.
actually.. it goes back to your contention that one of the reasons Santana is more likely to sign with the Mets is
“The teams excellent working relationship with the agent.”
Yet this “supposed “excellent working relationship” – for which you have no support- has not resulted in his players reaching agreement with the team..
in fact.. when a player who was a long standing farm raised icon for the team – wanted to sign with the team for a discount – he would up hurt and disillusioned in the Mets inability to bargain with his agent and come to an agreement for his services. Additionally, his agent could not leverage his excellent working relationship to come to an agreement.
Whether the Mets didnt really want him at that time or thought he was done or – as they said – wanted the market to dictate the price – is inconsequential.
Greenberg failed to leverage his “long standing excellent relationship” with the team to get his player signed.
Never mind that Hidalgo signed with the Astros 6 months after he was traded to the Mets and Cedeno’s contract was one of the all time worst free agent signings for this team.. All engineered by your man who reps Santana..
Admit it.. if this was the record of Scott Boras with the team you’d be having a field day on it.
Just to be clear because I don’t want you to mischaracterize my position again, but I don’t believe I ever said Santana was “more likely ” to sign with the Mets (over another team) …just that the fact his agent had an excellent working relationship with the Mets would be helpful to them.
Yet this “supposed “excellent working relationship” – for which you have no support- has not resulted in his players reaching agreement with the team..
As for the excellent working relationship — It’s things I’ve read from reporters and quotes from the Greenbergs themselves which lead me to believe this. And YES, this relationship did result in all 3 players (Reyes, Cedeno, Fonzie) signing contracts/extensions with the team. What the hell are you smoking tonight??
As I already said, the fact that at one point a team may not want to retain a player does not mean that his agent no longer has a good relationship with the club. That’s the most bizarre concept I think I’ve ever heard from you. More bizarre than many of our odd A-Rod ideas. As I said, if that were the case then no team in baseball would have a good relationship with any agent ever! Your idea makes no sense.
And as I already said, a player is almost always disappointed and hurt when not asked to come back but that doesn’t mean they are 1) very angry with the team and 2) the relationship with the agent is harmed.
Do you really think an agent expects a team to bring back players who the team deems finished? That’s so bizarre I don’t know what to say!
Mets inability to bargain with his agent and come to an agreement for his services.
Do you not understand that sometimes a team doesn’t want to bring back a player? They don’t really want to bargain? It takes 2 to bargain. Do you not understand for example that the Mets did not want to bring back Piazza after 2005, or Newhan after this year? It happens. I don’t know why you have such a hard time understanding this concept.
Whether the Mets didnt really want him at that time or thought he was done or – as they said – wanted the market to dictate the price – is inconsequential.
Greenberg failed to leverage his “long standing excellent relationship” with the team to get his player signed.
No, it’s not inconsequential at all. It’s the very reason they didn’t bring him back. Your lack of logic here is really baffling.
An agent’s standing with the club is not meant to get them to sign players that they don’t want or need anymore. No agent can get a club to do that, lol. That’s so preposterous. The standing is designed to get a club to seriously consider clients they have familiarity with, and to help smooth negotiations when there is a client of theirs that the team wants to sign or re-sign.
No agent in the world can get a club to sign a player they don’t want anymore. Good relationship or not.
Hidalgo is irrelevant to this part of the discussion. And the worth of Cedeno’s contract is also irrelevant to the debate. And this is the odd part. You just got done saying Greenberg couldn’t convince the Mets that they wanted Fonzie when they really didn’t. But now you say he did just that with Cedeno? LOL. Be consistent, man.
Fact is, Cedeno was a mistake of judgment by Phillips, like so many of his moves were, What else is new? And Fonzie was an exercise in good judgment by Phillips! One of his finer moments. In both cases it was the Mets call.
Please, put down the pipe, Biggie. It’s difficult making heads and tales of your twisted logic.
Admit it.. if this was the record of Scott Boras with the team you’d be having a field day on it.
Maybe it’s crack you’re on? You mean if Boras was Reyes agent I’d be calling their deal last summer proof of a bad working relationship? HUH? I would say just the opposite. And if Boras were Fonzie’s agent I’d call the deal they worked out when he was a Met a great example of a good working relationship. And if Boras were Cedeno’s agent I’d say wow they really get along well as those contract negotiations went so smoothly and quickly
So I have no clue what you’re talking about. Boras would get rave reviews if he were the agent for those 3.
That’s true about thanking the fans not the Mets, Biggie.
But I don’t thnk the Mets, wisely, wanted anything to do with Fonzie long term. They had to have known his back was shot. It was just another ridiculous move by the most overrated GM in MLB, Brian Sabean. Remember this is the same guy that gave up Boof Bonser AND Francisco Liriano AAAAND Joe Nathan for …. wait … for … it …. AJ Pierzenzky!!
And as far as Fonzie and BALCO, I assume you are blaming his sudden decline to designer “supplements”? I doubt that’s the case but I guess its possible with anyone. I think Fonzie broke down b/c he was significantly older than his birth certificate said he was (I think he was only listed as 29 when he left the Mets). I think the Mets also knew about that but chose to keep quiet about it at the time.
Last thing, going back to Sabean, looking at his track record you could probably land Lincecum for what, Endy Chavez and Delgado??
I think Fonzie broke down b/c he was significantly older than his birth certificate said he was (I think he was only listed as 29 when he left the Mets). I think the Mets also knew about that but chose to keep quiet about it at the time.
Could be..I too am wary of those Venezuelan birth certificates.. Oh wait.. where is Johan from?
heh heh, good one Biggie.
not quite the same situation, Fonzie was already breaking down as a Met and Santana seems to be going strong …. but it makes you think for a second.
I’m so sick of how overrated the Yankees’ prospects are. Melky is too inconsistent to be an everyday player and gets lost in the OF. Cano is a very good hitter but lacks good plate discipline and is a poor fielder. Hughes, outside of 1 game (which he pulled a hamstring), has been far from the future ace he was hyped up to be. Joba hasn’t pitched enough innings to get a good read on. He also hasn’t failed, which will happen. Kennedy is a #3 at best. He is not overpowering and is pretty much a Brian Bannister.
I would like to meet these execs who say Pelfrey and Humber are relievers at best. Could you imagine if they had their jobs when Lou Brock, Nolan Ryan, or Sandy Koufax came up? They’d have wanted them out of town ASAP.
Cabrera is a smooth fielder with an arm. At his potential he could be a solid #2 hitter.
Hughes came up unexpectedly, due to another pitcher’s injury. No one expected him to do well. But he did earn his stripes a couple of times. He’s going to throw harder, and when he does he’s going to be an ace. This year isn’t going to hurt his value… He’s turning 22.
Kennedy was impressive to me. He has a lot of control and a nice breaking pitch.
Chamberlain has electric stuff, no doubt. The only doubt is whether he’ll be a good starter in the bigs.
A Reyes package for Santana is a silly rumor that should have never been started. Even one for one, there is no way that a top five shortstop that’s under contract at well below the market value is more valuable than any pitcher at market value, and that’s assuming they are able to extend him, if not, its just one year. Its just bad economics. If the Mets want to move Reyes for Santana, they should be the ones getting multiple players in the deal.
If the Mets made Reyes or Wright available right now with the deals they got on their extensions, the only hotter commodity would be someone like Dan Haren. Even if you think Miguel Cabrera’s a better hitter than Wright, he’s only controlled for two years, and his AAV over that time will probably match Wright’s through 2012 (about $11 million). Miguel Cabrera will get at least $5 million more per year than than from 2009-2012. Reyes is earning even less through the remainder of his contract (Wright’s was really backloaded) at $7 million per year (and his club option is a more reasonable $11 million to Wright’s $16 million, although his garunteed years only go through 2010).
Its just that Haren’s contract is any GMs wet dream right now. AAV of less than $6 million for 3 years (including option). That and the Mets are in win now mode, and have no reason to sell their best players.
My point is not that the Dodgers will sign ARod but that Santana is unlikely to sign a long-term deal with only one (or two) teams involved in the bidding.
The open market will likely net him a MUCH larger contract. So why help out the Twins?
I predict he’ll be traded for a modest package of prospects (hey! we’ve got that…) and become a FA after 2008.
Your first paragraph makes no sense. It’s precisely because he may be looking more for “fit” that the money isn’t enough to make him wanna sign.
Just being a place where a player had a good experience is not the same thing as being the best fit for him.
First – refusing a 36 million dollar extension at the beginning of 07 (with a club option that locks him up thru 2011) after he won his second a Cy Young and leaving conservatively 100 mil on the table was a smart business move and an insulting offer from the Twins..
And he did not wait Six years to reach FA. — he signed a 4 year 40 million dollar contract that is expiring in 08.. it bought out his FA..similar to what Reyes did with the Mets and arguably gave him some level of financial security.
So how is signing potentially the most lucrative contract ever for a pitcher throwing away his free agency?
But if as you say financial security is so big with him then he turned down potentially over 50 million dollars. So one has to conclude financial security isn’t a big consideration with him at this point. Testing the market and being in a place where he thinks is best for him is more a priority.
The Twins bought out his arbitration years and 1 year of FA eligibility. That’s all. So, yes, he’s waited 6 years to become a FA.
Signing a contract no matter how large is not the same as being able to pick and choose who your next team will be.
By “waiting to become a FA” I meant he hasnt been thru the arb process like other players who are truly waiting to get to free agency. He freely signed a 4 year contract for 40 mil to buy out his arb years.
HE rejected an embarrassing 2 year extension proposal (with a club option for a third) from the Twins after Zito set the market at 7 years/120+ mil
I dont contend that making the most is a priority for him. But I have read in the press that a deal of similar length to Zito is important to him.
He has indicated that a winning surrounding and a commitment to winning is important..
I haven’t read anywhere that coming to the NL is a priority.
So again, he’s going to get the Big $$ from whoever trades for him – in years and money – (assuming he is traded) and whoever trades for him will presumably have a winning environment..
Unless he wants to pitch for significantly less money for a team that he “picks” I dont see where he is going to have an advantage of going thru the FA process. MOST teams will not be in the market for spending 20 plus million on a 30 YO pitcher.
Why do you contend that “testing the FA market” so important to him if all his requirements are met and he doesnt want to “get the most money”?
Whether or not he signed the contract, he couldn’t become a free agent for those years even if he wanted to. He was chained to the Twins, like it or not.
This is completely inaccurate.. if he didnt like the twins he couldve went to arb each year and become a FA when he had six years service> but he CHOSE to sign a long term deal and NOT be a FA when he was originally eligible.
2000- Made min
2001 made min
2002 made min
2003 – Made the Min
2004 lost Arb, made 1.6 M
2005 SIGNED 4 YEAR DEAL for 39.75 to avoid ARB and FA thru 2009
So.. he clearly previously made a choice to give up some freedom for Financial security.
no two ways about it.
I predict that at least 3-5 teams are in a real bidding war for Johan. A real one.
but how can it be a bidding war if — according to you and only you — he will be going through this extended courtship and choosing his next team my visiting the cities and meeting with the owners and deciding where he wants to live for the next 7 years…i would contend it makes sense that once this process is completely vetted it’ll be a simple negotiation.
hey wait.. if he’s traded either now or in season…. wouldnt he meet and mingle with THOSE owners and get the treated like royalty in THAT new city and look around and see nice places to raise his kids for five months?
and become a FA when he had six years service
Exactly. This is what I said. AFTER SIX YEARS. So he was chained to them for 6 years. Arbitration is merely having someone else decide your salary. He did not have the freedom to go to any team he wanted to. He only earned that right at the end of this year. (see link at end of this post with JH’s ML service time). 2000 and 2001 are not considered full years for the purpose of free agency.
Since the Twins have control of him through 2008 that means he only gave up 1 year of free agency (2008). But he was chained to them from 2000 through 2007.
No two ways about it.
but how can it be a bidding war if — according to you and only you — he will be going through this extended courtship and choosing his next team my visiting the cities
I don’t see how those two things are mutually exclusive. Maybe you can explain why you think they are.
i would contend it makes sense that once this process is completely vetted it’ll be a simple negotiation.
Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe he visits 5 teams and decides two are equally at the top of his list. Or 3. Regardless, until he finishes the “2008 Johan tour” there’s nothing to prevent all the teams from submitting bids along the way and continually upping the ante.
hey wait.. if he’s traded either now or in season…. wouldnt he meet and mingle with THOSE owners and get the treated like royalty in THAT new city
Sure, but as I said, he’d have no way to know if team abc (or xyz, or def) and its owners will be a better fit for him than “THOSE”:other owners unless he meets and greets with them too.
Here’s that link with the service time:
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/minnesota-twins_17.html
im using the same source
on the top it says…..
Contract information is unofficial & collected from various published reports. Service time in years & days (through 2006 season)
Johan Santana p
* ML service: 6.122
where do you got this statement?
2000 and 2001 are not considered full years for the purpose of free agency. -
- He was Rule Five in 1999 and started in 2000
heres my source on the eligibility
http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/info/faq.jsp#agency
Either way he clearly bought out his free agency when he signed the original 4 year contract.
I didn’t see the notation that the service time was current only to the end of 2006.
So then they only bought out 2 years of free agency instead of 1. That still makes my original statement about him being chained to the Twins for 6 years correct.
6 years of servitude + 2 additional years that he gave to them. I still see that as a long period of time in which he didn’t have any freedom (mostly not his choice) and which will influence his decision to become an UFA.