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…i have been trying to get an idea of what’s up with all the Yorvit Torrealba talk, but the best i could come away with is, ‘you’re over-thinking things, as usual,’ which i found funny, until i realized it was probably an insult…anyway…
…from what i can gather, the Mets feel torrealba, going forward, over the next few years, will be as good as Paul Lo Duca, if not better, plus come at a less expensive price…the team would rather have traded for a catcher, such as Ramon Hernandez, Gerald Laird or Kelly Shoppach, but the cost on all three was and will continue to be too high…ultimately, giving torrealba a three-year deal is the quickest, best, least-expensive option, and allows them to re-focus on filling its pitching staff, who, by the way, like to know who they’ll be throwing to when coming to a new team…
…as such, we should expect torrealba and Ramon Castro, who will likely ink a deal in the next week or so, to split time equally throughout the season…
…as for lo duca, who i will bet ends up with Rockies or Marlins, and who i will miss a lot, like i have written before, in talking with people connected to the team, i sense ownership and some coaches and players have soured on him, as they feel he was too negative during September, plus he is getting older and his offensive and defensive production has dipped…as i have said, i keep hearing that the team wants a catcher who works better with the pitching staff, and i guess the club feels a two-headed, castro-torrealba option is a better fit…
…this all hasn’t happened yet, so i hate to react and criticize something that isn’t official, but, if it does happen, i’m going to be very skeptical…on one hand, i respect this sort of outside-the-box thinking, especially at such a weak position…however, i like lo duca…and, yes, maybe i am only viewing him as a character, because, truthfully, he was very weak at and behind the plate this past season…but, he’s good enough, and i have a feeling the Mets will miss him in the locker room since he deflected a lot of anxiety and attention away from other people on the team who may not be ready to address reporters, deal with WFAN, get dirty and essentially be a lightening rod…
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Every time I write his name, all I can think of is Joe Torre and Jessica Alba.
Torre-Alba. That would make some couple.
This can’t be the first comment….jeez….
Matt – where’s that filter software??
I can stomach that explaination, but I have trouble accepting “C” players to build our future. If not LoDuca as a stop gap, because we know what we are getting, why not find young potential to platoon with Castro. Yorvet isn’t young and has reached his potential.
thats pretty much all LoDuca is. a “C” player.
please list 1 player that you have in mind
i really dont see this guy as our catcher for the next 3 years
why yorvit? good question. wilpons do it on the cheap again.
Yeah, because there was a better expensive option available that we had to settle for Torrealba (rolleyes).
The cheapest and best option for the future of the Mets would be to trade for Ronny Paulino, whose only 26 and is getting paid close to the MLB minimum. Another big positive is that Paulino is not arbitration eligible until 2009-11 and would be under the Mets control until 2012 when he becomes a free agent. I don’t understand all the trade talk for guys like Laird, Hernandez and Shoppach, it seems like a waste of time and resources. Paulino’s age, salary and defense alone seperate him from the rest of the group. We robbed Pittsburgh once for Ollie Perez, why not try it again?
Except for the part where Paulino would cost prospects and isn’t any better of a hitter, then sure.
Did you read the post at all? It clearly states that trade options were too expensive. A good young catcher is all of a sudden a hot commodity and I’ll bet the Pirates were asking for prospects the Mets did not want to give away for anything but pitching. Oh well, Torrealba it is…let’s see how he holds up…
exactly……. yorbit can’t throw anyone out, struck out more than twice as much as loduca last year, and hit 212 away from coors. loduca must have really annoyed someone from the mets front office. if they made loduca a fair offer, and he turned it down, thats one thing, but to ignore him for torrealba? obvious downgrade, even with the age difference.
To be fair, the year before Torrealba hit .274 on the road and .222 at home at Coors. Home/Away splits are a poor reason to judge a player because they change so much from year to year.
also BA and K are over rated stats that arent useful for projecting value and happen to be the only 2 things lo duca is remotely good at.
Terrible.
The biggest myth out there is that the Mets have this great offense and that they only need pitching. That is hogwash- their offense crumbled and withered down the stretch. They need both offense and pitching- and since there is no pitching to get, I would sign ARod. But Freddie Coupons would never even dangle his toes in the water on that…He probably won’t even do so much as extend a half ass, lowball offer like he did with Guerrero. Wow what a splash with Torrealba.
you are correct about the offense and arod
Exactly, if it wasnt for the fact that the braves and phils struggled all mid-summer as well, then we would have been out of first place long before it happened….
Maybe the Braves and Phils struggled all mid-summer is because they weren’t that good either.
It still makes me laugh out loud every time I read “Freddie Coupons.” Priceless……..
I’m not too happy with Torrealba, either, but try not to let your disappointment get in the way of reality. The Mets’ offense did NOT “crumble and wither” down the stretch, in fact they scored more runs than any team in the league except the redhot Rockies in September, and would have won the division easily if not for the collapse of the bullpen and the fading of the rotation.
The main priority was and still is pitching.
No, It’s not a myth.
Leaguewise, their hitting was much better than their pitching. For example, the Mets were #4 in the NL in runs scored, and two of the teams ahead of them play in hitters parks (CO & Philly). Their team OPS+ is #2 in the NL behind only the Marlins and tied with the Braves.
Compare that to the Mets’ ERA+. It was just 9th in the NL this year. Not very good for a team with WS aspirations.
So it’s true. Their hitting was not a problem — at least not as much of a problem as pitching.
Yeah, I hate that offense that scored 6, 4, 8, 8, 7, 9, 7, 7, 4, 9, 6, 0, 4, 13, and 1 runs in its last 15 games.
Damn those 94 runs in 15 games while trying to make the playoffs (10 losses). That 6.3 runs per game average in pitchers parks such as Shea, ProPlayer and RFK is really “not showing up.”
BURRRRRRRRN!!!
fair enough but anyone who thinks the offense is fine the way it is mustve been vacationing on mars for a large chunk of the season BEFORE september when “we were still in 1st place” and getting owned by career minor leaguers and rookies.
I mean its not the best move ever, but it sure beats Posada. I’m glad Omar didn’t waste his chips trying to trade for someone else though. Its silly to look at one move at a time, so lets see whatelse Omar does and then pass judgement.
The Mets thinking on this makes perfect sense. Torrealba doesn’t cost them any players/prospects, all of whom can be saved for the Johan Santana deal everyone here wants so badly (or whoever else might be out there). Also, it might drive down the price Texas or the O’s are asking making it easier to make a trade. But otherwise, I think Torrealba makes sense. And besides, the Mets need a number 8 hitter.
Exactly.
Also, assuming the Mets offer arbitration, they stand to pick up a sandwich draft pick by losing Lo Duca.
no way they offer Lo Duca arbitration… he will accept and we will have 3 catchers
Why would he pass up a multi-year offer elsewheres (That’s the market for him) to be a third catcher on the Mets? It’s not happening. He declines arbitration and we get our pick.
If he accepts we’ll trade him. Would you accept knowing you will have no future on your whereabouts?
How does it “make sense” to pay 3/$15 to a guy who is worth 3/$3M and doesn’t even improve your team?
Folks, this is what we call convoluted logic.
FYI: Mets.com’s ’source’ says the offer will be 2 years, 10 million. Still not as good, but that’s an offer I can live with. And sorry Cerrone, but I’d say it’s probably more credible then your number.
And really, the prices for Catchers get inflated because it’s such a poor Offensive position. Lo Duca would be seeing the same kind of money, if not more, in the open market.
What you say, and what Cerrone said, makes sense and has turned me around a bit on this pending deal with Torrealba. Torrealba may be a better receiver than Lo Duca, and he’s several years younger. Prior to last year he was quite good at throwing out runners. He was the main catcher on a team that went to the World Series — how terrible can he be? 3/15 is too much, but I don’t think the $$ matters all that much to the Mets. If they decide that they want to throw the real resources at another position, rather than give up players for Hernandez or Paulino or somebody, I can accept that.
I’m unenthused about Torrealba’s offense, but there isn’t anyone significantly better out there, unless you’re talking about giving up real talent in a trade, and Omar would rather expend those chips on something else.
It’s a bad move largely because we seem to be overpaying. But, IF the relatively low dollar amount compared to starting players generally frees up enough from whatever budget the Mets are working with to invest in the pitching staff, go for it.
That said, if the guy we get rid of after an epic collapse is Lo Duca, something odd is going on. Maybe they think he was making the sullen, lifeless, clock-punching players nervous??
More likely, though, they’re placing some blame on his shoulders for his work with the pitching staff down the stretch. Anybody have some catcher ERA stats for August and September?
Good point. I as a fan looked more towards Delgado types as the problem – and I still think he is. I guess it is easier to move a guy off contract then one on. You can bet 2009 is looking to be the year the Mets overpay on high priced talent given the move into the new stadium and Delgado and Pedro off contract
I agree….Delgado and Reyes were the biggest problems down the stretch…Reyes was terrible and Delgado was bored but lo Duca gets the blame! Unbelievable…….
I don’t think they are placing blame on his shoulders, its more that he is a 36yr old catcher, looking to cash in on one more multiyear contract, at prolly around $8-9mill. They are right also, you will probably get equal performance out of Torrealba…This may be a bit of a stretch, but one thing to consider-the NL West is probably a bit tougher on hitters, with guys like B.Webb, Penney, Peavy and Young taking the mound
I’m going to miss Paulito.
I understand the Mets want to concentrate on pitching but they need a big bat too. All this talk of pitching and I hear nothing about offense. We’ll have to wait to see the end results but so far, no good.
Los Mets are in full effect more than ever! Going after second rate “C or D” grade players like Torrealba, Livan Herandez, Carlos Silva, Jose Contreras, Gerald Laird- and what do they all have in common? I’ll give you a hint: “VIVEN LOS METS!”
What an absolute joke of a general manager- this on the heels of the horrific, god awful trades/other transactions he made last year of Heath Bell for Ben Johnson, Bannister for Burgos (Los Mets!), Lindstrom and Owens for Jason Vargas (Los Mets!), giving Mota a 2 year deal off a steroid suspension (Los Mets!)..this was a fireable offense in itself….letting Bradford and Oliver walk and signing Schoeneweis to a 3 year deal…standing pat and doing ZERO in the offseason between ‘06 and ‘07 as well as standing pat and doing ZERO in the ‘07 regular season and at the deadline…and now he continues with doing nothing to overhaul the roster as much as possible as well as make a splash or two, both which DESPERATELY need to be done on the heels of the god awful collapse in order to win back the p*ssed off, turned off fans I have no confidence in this garbage GM- the same man who once traded Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, and BRANDON PHILLIPS in order to rent a fat, old Bartolo Colon for 2 months when he was in Montreal…and Minaya also has interest in Colon this offseason..along with Contreras…LOS METS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How does Minaya or our worthless, gutless, clueless dispassionate manager still have a job on the heels of a collapse?? Because in New York, especially, you take a lot of heat when you fire somebody who is a minority…and so they get long, long leashes…
I am so glad some of you are mentioning that we need a bat. This line up is good, but when it came across decent pitching it could not hit. We need pitching and a bat. I’ll live with Yorbit if I know we will be getting a another hitter.
I’m sick of hearing how great this line up is – It’s overated!
Sorry – A-Rod will go back to the Yanks
Wow..way to be irrational…IIRC, Steve Phillips made a whole bunch of moves between 01-03…how did all that work out?
Also, the Montreal example has absolutely 0 relevence here…At that time they were up for contraction. What good are prospects when your team may not even be around? The Colon deal was done to get immediate results, and people in the stands, which it did.
The only move you can 100% criticize AT THE TIME IT HAPPENED (and not in hindsight) is the Mota deal. Lindstrom and Owens were relatively older players who had no spot on the team, and Heath Bell wasnt able to show any consistency up here.
Some trades work, some don’t. Warren Buffet is the greatest investor alive…would you lambast him because ONE deal didnt work? NO, you look at the whole body of work..
Bell for Johnson didn’t work, but how about Cameron for Nady?
Lindstrom/Owens for Vargas/Bostick wasn’t a great move, but how about Julio for El Duque?
Of course, this makes no mention of the homerun deals of Seo for Sanchez, Benson for Maine/Julio, or Nady for Ollie/R.Hernandez…Not to forget others that worked out better for us such as Delgado for Jacobs/Petit, G.Hernandez for PLD, Butera/?? for Castillo…
Then there are the other pickups, i.e. Beltran/Pedro/Alou/Wagner
That tallies out to 13 moves that have worked out for the Mets, as opposed to 7 that didn’t (I threw you a bone with leaving Flores exposed)
Thats pretty good if you ask me…He also turned around a 90 loss team to a over .500 team within one year, AND got us a division crown which hadn’t happened since Frank Cashen, so I’d say he has done a pretty good job.
Maybe you should go back to the Bronx.
BOOM goes the dynamite, on mistermet. great post
Well said
so i guess every GM that has won 1 division title is a genius.
Omar put a team on the field that had the WORST collapse in major league history (granted they probably shouldve fallen out of 1st some time in june or july)….not even steve phillips was able to accomplish that.
Steve Phillips also never tasted 1st place for more than 3 days. Omar never guided a 90 loss team here.
Minaya hasn’t made many good moves since the Nady deal. The Castillo trade was ok, but honestly, that’s not saying much.
How much is Omar paying you? Jeez…….
catcher was the least of my worries going into the offseason. to me, it was the last priority after middle relievers, starting pitching, 2b, bench, and outfield.
any two of castro, torrealba, or lo duca would be fine. definately wouldn’t trade a prospect for a catcher. it’s a weak position across the majors.
the writing was on the wall for lo duca to leave. his mouth is the reason for this move along with being 36 entering next season. i’ll miss his hard-nose play.
i have a feeling the Mets will miss him in the locker room since he deflected a lot of anxiety and attention away from other people on the team who may not be ready to address reporters, deal with WFAN, get dirty and essentially be a lightening rod…
That means you Delgado…you and the rest of the creep chokers who ran away and hid like the loser punks you are
‘you’re over-thinking things, as usual,’ which i found funny, until i realized it was probably an insult…anyway…
It would be helpful if you noted who said this to you. your wife, a scout, Omar….
Anyway, it is nonsense to suggest pitchers are going to worry about who they are throwing to. You think that is on a bum like Silva’s mind? Now you are overthinking things Matt. It’s all about the $$$.
This is shaping up into an awful off season.
And, although I am not a huge LoDuca fan and am sure the 19 year old girls and gambling doesn’t play a small part in this decision, saying Torrealba is going to be as productive even as an aging LoDuca is wishful thinking. Paulie is likely still capable of hitting .290 if he can stay reasonably healthy. This guy will likely hit in the .240s once he is out of Colorado.
Given garbage like this, how is the confidence rating up to 6.2???!
Yeah I’m sick and tired of hearing about how the Mets offense is “not the problem” and that they have “more than enough.” That is an absolute myth…the way the offense WITHERED not only during the collapse but all throughout the year…how many times did they get shutout by rookie pitchers? Many times! I have vivid memories the Mets being 2-hit through 7 innings by STIFFS like Mike Bacsik and TYLER CIPPARD and Matt Chico, for God’s sake. Everybody seems to be forgetting this. Yes they need pitching as well- as well as a new manager, a new GM…everything…but offense is a BIG need as well…SIGN AROD FREDDIE COUPONS! This team has gigantic revenue streams now, with the new stadium coming…revenue from SNY, naming rights…as well as huge box office gates and increased ticket prices…this team is holding out on us- they are acting like a small market team…talking about “budgets” and “restraint” and all this garbage…the payroll has not been raised in 5 years….yet the ticket prices have gone THROUGH THE ROOF! When they signed Beltran, Martinez, Wagner, etc., they SHED other payroll to make it a wash..the overall payroll DID NOT GO UP more tahn 5% as a result of these signings..and so the Mets gave us the appearance that they were spending all this money…and then they jacked up ticket prices through the roof…they have SO MUCH MONEY it’s not even funny…and the revenue streams are astronomical at this point and will only go up….they can afford 3 ARODS…but they are holding out on us. I am so sick of Freddie COUPONS!!!!!!!
I’m going to go out on a limb and assume you live alone.
LOL … I repeat my reply to you above:
No, It’s not a myth.
Leaguewise, their hitting was much better than their pitching. For example, the Mets were #4 in the NL in runs scored, and two of the teams ahead of them play in hitters parks (CO & Philly). Their team OPS+ is #2 in the NL behind only the Marlins and tied with the Braves.
Compare that to the Mets’ ERA+. It was just 9th in the NL this year. Not very good for a team with WS aspirations.
So it’s true. Their hitting was not a problem — at least not as much of a problem as pitching.
I think we’re just wasting our time on this one, VCarver.
Just call up Jesus Flores from the minors and give him a sh…..oh, that’s right, Minaya horribly misplayed that situation considering how valuable catchers are in this market. I support Minaya, but, why doesn’t anyone hold his feet to the fire on that decision in light of the pedestrian, yet expensive, options currently being considered?
This has been said before, but obviously you haven’t read it, Flores was a BACKUP catcher on a BAD TEAM. The 40 man roster of the freaking Nationals, has about 10 or 15 players that are good enough to be on the Mets 40 man roster. Omar was protecting GOOD players by putting them on the 40 man roster, Flores wasn’t considered good enough to be protected. Flores IS NOT as good as everyone thinks, and Torrealba has much more plus’s than Flores.
i do think it is more complicated than thinking he is good enough to be protected. I mean we had a spot on the 40 man for Julio Franco and David Newhan. Both guys could have been dropped in favor of FLores. Mr Met is kind of right on this one. We gambled and lost on this guy. He is not a world beater, not Johnny Bench or whatever. But he is a servicable backup and young and a catcher. All things the Front Office or at least Willie tend to devalue
I appreciate what you’re saying, but, they kept Jon Adkins on the 40-man for crying out loud. And my main point isn’t specifically that Flores is a game-breaker, but as he plays a highly coveted position, it’s careless that Minaya exposed him.
I understand what you’re saying as well, but multiple baseball executives have said that they were shocked that the Nationals took Flores and that he stuck around on their roster all season long. He was a 22 year old who was in A ball last year. To think that he could have made the jump was just a longshot. Credit to Manny Acta and Washington for making it work though. It’s hard to fault Minaya too much for that one when just about nobody expected Flores to be in danger of being snatched.
LOL, which baseball executives? The ones on the Mets?
Of course they would be shocked. Because they wrongly assessed the catching market and their own prospect.
Flores was in high A ball in 2006. That’s basically where Wright came from straight to the majors since he only spent less than half a year in AA ball.
Credit Davey Johnson for getting Flores for the Nats. He’s the one who scouted Flores and gave a glowing report to the Nats. Apparently Davey Johnson wasn’t asleep at the wheel.
Flores wasn’t considered good enough to be protected.
Huh? I believe he was the #1 ranked catcher in the organization at the time. But more important, he just got through banging 21 HRs and driving in 69 RBIs in just 120 games in high A ball. How do you let a catcher like that get away?
If they didn’t consider that good enough to protect him, then there’s the problem!
Flores IS NOT as good as everyone thinks, and Torrealba has much more plus’s than Flores.
Oh yeah? How do you make that determination? On the fact that Flores’ OPS+ was just 2 points lower despite the fact he was a young rookie? Or that his CS% was higher than Torrealba’s?
I never said Flores wasn’t better offensively. I never said Flores wasn’t the best Catcher in the Farm. My points were that Torrealba has been scouted as better DEFENSIVELY from what I’ve read. AND best catcher in the FARM still doesn’t necessarily mean he needed protected.
Everything I’ve read about Flores said he was GOOD but not great, and once he got about single A he pretty much put up the same offensive numbers as Torreable did, yet he never recieved the defensive praise Torrealba did. The Mets had no real reason to beleive he’d have been Rule 5′d. Perhaps you know much more about him than I, and if so, great, please correct me on these points. MY point was, and still is, Torrealbe seems much more of what I imagine we need as a catcher than Flores ever was.
My points were that Torrealba has been scouted as better DEFENSIVELY from what I’ve read.
Can you provide a link to back that up? Unless someone compared them head to head, I don’t know how you can make that claim.
best catcher in the FARM still doesn’t necessarily mean he needed protected.
When you’re paper thin — or worse in the case of the Mets — with catching prospects, then I think you absolutely have to protect players such as Flores.
Everything I’ve read about Flores said he was GOOD but not great,
Any links? And Torrealba is good, not great. There are no great catchers out there to be had.
and once he got about single A he pretty much put up the same offensive numbers as Torreable did, yet he never recieved the defensive praise Torrealba did.
Huh? Flores put up those numbers in high A. And Torrealba never had an offensive year in the minors (or majors) that equaled the one Flores had.
And I’m not aware of ANY negatives regarding Flores defensive skills when he was in the minors. If you know of any, post a link.
The Mets had no real reason to beleive he’d have been Rule 5′d.
If they were smart enough, they would have seen the reason. His year in high A ball.
Torrealbe seems much more of what I imagine we need as a catcher than Flores ever was.
So, we need a catcher who threw out just 20% of baserunners last year instead of one who threw out 33% and costs about $4.5M less? Interesting philosophy you have there!
VCarver, allow me to lend a helping hand.
ALAY SOLER WAS PROTECTED.
JESUS FLORES WAS NOT.
END OF DISCUSSION.
Yeah Delgado would have been the first one I traded off the team the way way he withered and hid from reporters, etc., and acted like a coward dog…not to mention his skills have deteriorated and he can’t catch up to an inside fastball anymore…but he will be here in 2008 and possibly beyond…just as long as LOS METS are in effect with Minaya!
I think that Delgado should have been traded during the season last year.
I would float his name now though because the FREE AGENT FIRST BASEMEN AVAILABLE ARE GOD FRICKIN AWFUL THIS YEAR.
Delgado could likely be attractice to a team who sees themselves as close and lacking some pop (like the Giants or the Dodgers) They both have good farm systems. Trading away Delgado for 2 real prospects would be attractive to our farm system regeneration but we could only do it if we could get a first basemen back in a trade like an Adam Dunn.
i wonder…..
Maybe trade Delgado for prospects to the Giants or Dodgers after Cabrera is traded to the Angels and the Fish get back that Kendrick guy (2nd base phenom) and Ervin Santana. Then we can trade for Dan Uggla and make him a 1st basemen. He can’t cost us much more than Mulvey and Collazo
LoDuca’s skills were diminishing, granted, especially in terms of driving runs, defense, throwing out runners, etc…but at least he was a .300- .320 hitter..Torrealba is a .248 lifetime hitter, and hit .211 away from Coors last year…LOS METS!
lo duca hit .278 in 07 and is lifetime .288. Still better than Torrealba, but he’s no .300 hitter.
I always liked lo duca, but I can see this as a move to younger, and a move to a guy who was on a team, that got hot down the stretch and had playoff success, and he was calling those games, and getting clutch hits.
Everyone’s tired in Sept, our pitchers just suddenly started to suck, and the catcher is integral in that process.
yes, this is the worst of your arguments yet. the chance of lo duca having a better year than torrealba next year are not good. the chances of him having a better year behind the plate are almost non existent. torrealba at least has a chance of having a break out year, lo duca has almost no shot of being better than league average.
C sucks across the league this year, torrealba will be a defensive improvement, we dont give up draft picks, fine.
im not going to get psyched if i see torrealba at the plate and it seems like a lot of money but that is the nature of FA. its still better than bringing back lo duca, even if he doubled his grit and hard nosedness this off season
Remember Todd Hundley. He didn’t develop until he was 27.
Sorry, but Todd Hundley was juiced to the gills. And Torrealba will be 30 in August.
I supported the return of Lo Duca, and I’m not thrilled with Torrealba being our starting catcher, but given that it’s primarily a defensive position, I’m willing to give him a look. If he’s as solid behind the plate as we saw those few weeks down the stretch, and if he’s the kind of batter who can drive in some clutch runs from time to time, I’ll be OK with him.
This lineup cannot afford a weak hitting catcher! Torrealba is a lesser hitter than Lo Duca and this lineup did struggle at times last year…Bad move LOS METS!
the line up struggled becasue lo duca was hitting reyes in to DP’s at the 2 hole.
15/3 sounds like too much for me but lets see if that actually is the price, if the deal gets done, and how the rest of the market plays out.
torreable will most likely be a below average hitter next year, but he will also be 29 next july, lo duca will also likely be a below average hitter and will turn 36 in april. if i have to pay more money for youth and defense in my catcher(s) its worth it.
So if the Torrealba signing turns out to be indeed true, how do the Mets go about getting the compensation draft picks for losing LoDuca? They certainly aren’t offering arbitration to him, and I doubt Paulie will sign elsewhere before the deadline date comes around.
They can offer arbitration to Duke, I see no reason why he would pass up a multi-year offer (That would be the market for him, thanks Posada) from somewhere else to accept here where we will likely have 2 catches before the week is over signed.
Agreed. ANd if he did accept arbitration with us, we’d trade him anyway. can’t go with 3 catchers.
pick*
No I live with your sister. Tell her dinner was great last night.
If it’s a youth move, why the price tag.
Trade bait?
Pitching Pitching Pitching.
The realist in me and my somewhat negative take on our ability to get some real offseason work done has me thinking the following……
1) Rely on Dirty Sanchez returning to form
2) Bring in 1 starter of the Livan, Colon, Silva crowd and pay em
3) Move Duque to the pen
4) Move Heilman to the rotation
5) Move Pelfrey to the pen
I realize this is a bit of a stretch but it leaves you with the folllowing pen and rotation:
1) Pedro
2) Oliver Perez
3) Maine
4) Heilman
5) Silva (for sake of arguments)
Pen
1) Wagner
2) Sanchez
3) Duque
4) Pelfrey
5) Feliciano
6) Shoenweis
7) Joe Smith
Reserve Starters- Duque, Pelfrey, Mulvey, Humber
Reserve Pen guys – Padilla, Burgos (after at least half the season is over), Mota (goes through waivers then to AAA), Kunz, Collazo, Sosa??
I definitely like the idea of pelfrey in the pen. I’m not taking heilman as a starter though. Everything else I’d give a shot.
This means the Mets are paying $7-8 million a year combined for two back-ups. Go figure
Gowrightgo,
The pitching staff you posted above is the exact same bunch of chokers that were on the pitching staff in 2007…need more changes there as well as in the offense…The only difference between the 2007 choking staff and the one you added above was that you added in Carlos Silva (LOS METS!), a garbage stiff who has allowed 530 hits in 375 innings the past 2 years with a WHIP approaching 1.5 and one of the worst K/9 in all of baseball. Get a clue. He couldn’t even stay in the Twins rotation the past few years- they skipped over him every chance the got. And Omar, of Los Mets, is going to give him 10-11 million per year? Fire him now.
Well I added Pedro Martinez ( a diminished Pedro from his greatness).
And I put both Silva and Heilman in the rotation.
Plus I prefaced it all by saying I feel this is the negative and realist in me coming out.
I’d rather say we could have a staff with
Bedard, Santana, Pedro, Oliver Perez and Maine But that has no chance of happening in my world. Id’ rather say we have AROD playing 1st, Wright at 3rd, Reyes at SS and Paulie back catching with ALou magically 33 yrs old and healthy for a whole season plus Fukudome in RF
But I don’t see anything coming of that Mr Met.
We do not have either the free agents to choose from or the top level prospect talent to procure what is needed to really push the team into elite status. The Mets are not going to be world champs next year. They will likely not be favored to win their division. Sorry but it is not in the cards
We should not mortgage 2009 and beyond to make 2008 better than 2007. Meaining I would not trade Wright or Reyes in a deal for a starter and I would not sign Arod
Matt in regards to your question earlier, I don’t believe you are making too many posts, the more the better. That being said, since the majority of the people that visit this site, visit it often, many times a day, do you really feel the need to repeat yourself on such topics such as Arod, Lo Douca and the team ’souring’ on him and now the bullpen. Honestly, whenever these or another heavily covered topic comes up, you grab exactly what you wrote in previous posts and REPOST them OVER AND OVER again, word for word. It’s getting quite annoying and it’s a lazy writing style. Now pardon me as I copy this, word for word into other three other posts as well.
Add: “the buzz in baseball, for a while now, has been that livan and his brother, Orlando Hernandez, have been wanting to be on the same team for years now, hoping to reunite before one or both of them retire…” to the list of lines you can find recited on the blog in the form of 3 different posts a day.
Livan is atrocious.
We’d be paying YORVIT $5 million to play 95 games? Unreal.
This organization never ceases to amaze me. What a joke.
Originally, I too have been rather confused by the idea of signing Yorvit. I guess partly, I am biased towards LoDuca, I’m sure, plus like most fans, our prospects slightly to much better to me, than realistically to other teams. And I feel prospects of little value to me could net a quality catcher for us.
As time has gone on, I’ve opened my eyes to this a bit. So, I made the decision that if this is actually going to happen, then perhaps it makes sense to research Yorvit Torrealba. I’ve found that last year his defensive numbers were far and away sub par to his norm, supposedly do to an injury.
In 2005, the Colorado Rockies sent Marcos Carvajal to the Seattle Mariners, for Yorvit Torrealba. Torrealba was said to be a .250 hitter, but an excellent defensive catcher with a ROCKET of an arm.
This pick up, is starting to make more and more sense. I think a three year deal (or a two year deal with an option) works, both for Yorvit and Ramon Castro. It leaves the way open for Francisco Pena should he work out as projected, plus it leaves the door open for something else to work out for the future.
You know, Silva will not be any better than Pelfrey. There is no need yo overpay for mediocrity.
Pelf and Humber will have to be given a shot sooner or later, and it’s this perpetual “win now” mentality that gets us stuck with players like Silva for multi-year contracts while Pelfreys and Humbers become very good starting pitchers for other teams.
“Win Now” also makes people delusional. Wake up folks. Silva isn’t getting us over the hump in ‘08, and there is a good possibility that either Pelfrey or Humber or both will turn out to be highly serviceable starters or even studs by ‘09.
As for Torrealba, there are scores of minor leaguers who can replicate his offensive production and provide better defense at much less cost. What is Minaya thinking, if anything?
At least we will have Castro as a platoon partner/1st string catcher, but you can’t depend on him like that. There’s too much of a shot that he had a career year last year and/or that he will miss extensive time with injury. He’s been erratic his whole career, one solid year, one miserable year.
The only good thing about Torrealba over LoKooka, however, is that it will result in more playing time for Castro, who is better than both when he’s healthy (and not in a down year).
Sheesh.
Didn’t we say this last year? Lilly won’t be better then Pelfrey.
Well, how’d that turn out? I like Pelfrey too, but lets wait until he actually does something in the MLB before making statements like that.
Pelf was really unlucky last year with his BABIP, and he turned a corner with the Braves game. He was much better in his second callup of the season.
So there is some basis to say this. Pelfrey is medium to low risk-high reward. Silva is low risk-no reward. Pelfrey in ‘09 will almost definitely be better than Silva.
It’s better to sit tight for a year than to get stuck with pitchers like Silva, who won’t get us over any kind of hump anyway.
However, Pelfrey only threw 150 combined innings last year, compared to 200 for Silva. They’ll likely put up similar numbers, with Silva putting up those numbers over more innings, saving 20 innings (I’d assume Pelfrey’s ceiling next year is 180 innings) from our pen. Come September, those 20 innings will add up in terms of relievers maintaining command and avoiding deadarm.
Also, Silva should get a bump in productivity from both the AL-NL shift and home park factor. Last year, his ERA+ was 103, which puts him ahead of Glavine and behind Maine. I’d say Silva makes sense, and gives us some flexibility as far as either seasoning Pelfrey and Humber a little more or using them as bait to bring in Santana, Oswalt or Haren.
That’s not quite fair. Pelf spent a lot of time in the minors that year. He threw those innings in a more limited amount of starts.
Pelf will be 24 next year and has been seasoned enough. There comes a time where you have to throw the kid in the water and let him swim. I have confidence in him as a 4th starter.
It was about 55-45 between minors/majors. While it’s an imperfect sample, the trend, at least in terms of how clubs handle pitching, and especially how the Mets handle pitching after Generation K flamed out, is that starters don’t typically jump 50 IP per season.
Don’t get me wrong- I’d LOVE for Pelfrey to excel and become a quality starter in 2008. But taking a player’s performance as a given is the kind of thinking that got Omar in trouble with the pen this season. If Silva excels and Pelfrey is dominant at NOLA, there’s always the possibility of moving either for bullpen help, or just in taking the security that Pelfrey’s there for injury backup. Or, if Omar doesn’t land a big trade target, we could do worse than having a #3 starter in the 4 slot (Silva) and a #4 in the 5 (Pelfrey).
I understand where you’re coming from, but the problem is that once we sign Silva, we’re kind of stuck with him. He might be able to be traded, but overall, he’s more trouble than he’s worth. And the bullpen with Sanchez, Muniz and Padilla on the way, along with the serviceable Smith, Heilman, Feliciano and Wagner, should have more than enough ammunition, particularly with the addition of a Riske or a good longman. (I don’t know when Burgos gets back.)
The worst that could happen is that Pelfrey and Humber suck in ‘08, a year where we probably won’t go anywhere anyway, and we regroup in ‘09. Chances of that happening I feel are small.
The worst case scenario with Silva is that either he sucks and we’re stuck with him, or he’s mediocre and Humber or Pelf get traded and become solid John Maine type pitchers elsewhere.
Think of it this way, given the upsides of Pelf and Humber, the chances of both being better than Silva by ‘09 are very high, and thus spending a ton of money on Silva is inadvisable when Silva will not even make a difference in ‘08. You’re essentially banking on the small probability that both Pelf and Humber will bust, for the sake of the small difference between Pelf or Humber and Silva in ‘08, and when either or both could be better than Silva even in ‘08.
If signing Carlos Silva means that we do not, at any point in 2008, have to start Dave Williams or Jason Vargas, and we can put Duque in the pen, where he can stay healthy, then he’s worth whatever hassle he brings. He had a solid 2007 with the Twins, pitching in the Homerdome. Combine the boost he should get from getting out of that park with the boost he’ll likely get from coming into the NL, and he’s worth the risk. Also, Pedro goes off the books after next year. Maine and Perez should become 1-1a type starters by then, and we’ll have two presumably ML-ready back-end starters out of Pelfrey, Mulvey and Humber. Silva will be a valuable piece in transitioning through the rotation, keeping the bullpen fresh for the younger guys.
At this point, I like him because he’s an innings-eater, and should get a boost. Matt Clement may well be the better FA option this year.
True, but Silva and is contract will still be here long after he is redundant. What then?
Lets say Silva is better than Humber because I hope that Pelfrey at least pitches 5th. How much better? $10M better? I doubt it. $10M for 5 years is too much to bet on Silva over Humber. (If they were boxers instead of pitchers, would you bet $10M on Silva?)
Will Silva’s advantage over Humber be the difference between winning and not winning the World Series in ‘08? I doubt it. If winning is the goal, then there is no short-term advantage to obtaining Silva. The long term reward scenario of giving experience to Pelfrey and Humber, however, is 4 years of very good young cheap starting pitching from at least one of them. If soeone gets hurt, you’ve got Duke and Mulvey.
Why waste your financial advantage in ‘09 on Silva when there are real impact players to be had?
Here’s a kicker: Even in the unlikely event that Humber and Pelfrey show no signs that they will be better than Carlos Silva (and given their upsides, if either become Carlos Silva, it is a bust), you can get a Silva any time–probably for less money–in a stronger market. And since we probably aren’t going anywhere in ‘08, there’s thus no reason not to go with upside, which Pelf and Humber have in spades while Silva has none.
If we get Silva for $10M, someone else rides the pine. Nobody will get that kind of money and not play. Humber, Duke, Wagner, Feliciano, Heilman, Sanchez, Smith, Muniz, Show, (a decent LOLOOGY) and Padilla = bullpen surplus. We have bullpen depth. The bullpen last year was hobbled by injuries and badly mismanaged (e.g. the Willie and Mota man crush/not bringing up capable guys like Muniz sooner and sticking with the same failed retreads). Someone will be traded. Do you trust Omar to make a good decision? What if the Silva signing precipitates a bad Omar move? That’s a real risk. Silva is not enough of a reward IMO, to take that risk. That + the money = don’t get Silva.
The one good thing about signing Silva is that if we don’t need him, he’s enough of a commodity that we could trade him without eating too much salary. If that’s the plan, than he might be a good (albeit exceedingly expensive) hedge against Pelf and Humber. I don’t really trust Omar to take this route.
FYI: Mets.com’s ’source’ says it’ll be a 2 year, 10 million offer. Not 3 year, 15 million. Which is certaintly something I can live with alot easier. And sorry Cerrone, but I’d say they’re a little more credible then you.
And really, the prices for Catchers get inflated because it’s such a poor Offensive position. Lo Duca would be seeing the same kind of money, if not more, in the open market
Anyone think Willie will get any votes for NL Manager of the Year today?
2 point here:
1)To the guy above sayin Los Mets or whatever…did you ever stop and realize like 70% of the League’s BEST players are Spanish/Dominican?????
2)I am getting the feeling that this already is not going to be our year..the market is thin and we have yet to make any signifigant signing other than bringing back players we had last year…I think this is Willie and Omars’ last year here…and come 09 we will have a lot of new faces and we will spend a ton of money next winter.
This move is definitely a head scratcher. Why don’t the Mets just sign Defilice to be the everyday catcher. He can hit .215 and he looked great on defense. Beats paying 5mil a year for this guy.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7445988
Looks like the Mets are planning on Castro starting more games, like I’ve been saying for awhile. I actually like it a lot. Two good pretty young catchers, one of them could easily break through and have become a great starting C. Much better than a 35 year old we all know is done.
I think production and caught stealing percentages are overrated for catchers. Catchers should be judged on their ability to call a game and handle the entire pitching staff, from young to old. Maybe there is something we don’t know? Maybe Pedro gave Torrealba an endorsement? Maybe the coaches and front office know something about his leadership skills? Who knows? The point is that this is the least of our problems. This could be an indication that Minaya is going to fill some holes and truly focus on the real problem: PITCHING.
There’s also something we do know: down the stretch, the Rockies pitching staff buckled down and pitched well, while the Mets staff imploded.
Very true. …and for the most part, a young, inexperienced pitching staff.
kidding
cant we just bring back big bad mikey piazza? just cant get excited about torrealba…