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…sifting through the comments section, you’ll see a lot of criticism over Omar Minaya and company’s handling of the offseason so far..…and unwarranted criticism, in my opinion…
…since the unofficial start of the hot stove season, there have been exactly three trades – none of any significance, unless you count yesterday’s Angels-White Sox deal – and six free agent signings…there are roughly 161 players left in the free agent pool…
…yes, we have watched the Yankees dominant the hot stove by retaining Jorge Posada, Alex Rodriguez and Mariano Rivera, all of whom the Mets weren’t real players for anyways.…and yes, we have seen names from Jake Peavy, Johan Santana, Ramon Hernandez, Joe Blanton, Eric Bedard to Carlos Silva, Livan Hernandez, Yorvit Torrealba, Octavio Dotel and David Eckstein thrown about as possible targets for the Mets, but decisions to mortgage the team’s future on the trade front to handing out high-priced contracts cannot be decided in eight days…and no one should have expected minaya to revamp the 2008 Mets in that amount of time…
…i am sure the Mets want to build a team that makes everyone forget the disappointment of 2007, but we have to give minaya and company the benefit of the doubt for now…i’m not saying that if in the weeks after the upcoming winter meetings nothing has been done significantly to improve the team we should continue to give minaya a pass, but let’s not rush to judgment on minaya’s job to put together the 2008 Mets, at least not yet…
…posted by Matthew Cerrone…
…obviously, i agree with mike…also, speaking as a blogger, who crawls in and around the internets looking for information, i am astonished at the increase in available information compared to just one year ago, be it fact or fiction or something in between…which, i think, leads to a lot of panic, by me included, that so much can be done, but that no team is acting upon it…in reality, realistic options are probably far less, and most everything must take time to work out…
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I agree completely. i think most of the negative comments stems from my fellow bloggers passion and love for the team. We, as fans, are obviously frustrated (as I’m sure the players and FO are as well).
I know Omar will come through in this offseason, if not with some blockbuster deal, than he will at least do the little things that add up to the big picture. I’m patient and very much anticipating the winter meetings to see what happens.
Go Mets!!!
my thoughts exactly…..
Mike Nichols: The Voice of Reason
My problem w/ Omar does not stem from this off season so far, or the collaspe of last season. It goes back to last off season when he he did not address the needs of the team then. IMO the needs were SP, 2B and RF. There were 2 quality SP’s available last off season in Mench and LIlly, who Omar felt weren’t even worth negoiating w/ for the money that was being discussed. It seems he will be spending at least that much on = if not lesser SP this year. By doing this last year we are dealing from position of strength this year. 2B, entursting it to Valentine, an aging player who had a carerr year, a bit of a leap of faith. RF, S. Green for a whole season, enough said. If these issues were addressed last year, this year we are working on finding a younger C and dealing for an ACE from strength, or at least stronger position.
All this being said, he still has an opportunity to redeem his vaunted(if unwarrented) reputation. IMO
no need to make any concessions to these “fans”. people are impatient when it comes to this information… they see all these names flying around and they can’t sort the reality from the rumors. the same thing happens around the trade deadline… they just want the Mets to do something so they can read about it in the paper. the Minaya Mets have never made moves for the sake of making moves. spring training is another 3 months away… relax, people.
besides, it’s much more exciting to have a late-developing off-season to feed into the hype for next season.
Mike – last year left a bitter taste with many Mets fans.
So far, the Phillies have added a significant piece to their bullpen and the Braves have added a back of the rotation starter. The Yankees are always an interesting distraction but the Mets rivals have made important moves.
Omar & Co needs to make a bold move to ensure the team is on a championship path. You’re right that the offseason has just started but already the Mets have some ground to catch up.
You cannot use Tom Glavine as an example of a team making a move when you would have killed Minaya for bringing that same pitcher back with us.
I agee with metro… It’s early but lets get in the mix… His catcher signing was a head scratcher even though some fans were brainwashed into thinking it was a good move… Don’t forget the monumental collapse last year…… Omar needs to get in gear…
I hate to disagree with Matt on this one, but how can you say the Brad Lidge trade was “none of any significance”…..Our main rival in our division improved in 2 places with that trade, Lidge in the pen, and now Myers is back in the rotation…They have the leg up so far on improving for 08……We don’t have to be quick, just smart with a trade or 2
The Lidge trade occurred before Nov 13.
I completely agree. When I first heard the Lidge deal, I was stunned. First reaction was “where the hell was Omar?”. To let Lidge go to your main rival where it allows for them to improve in 2 areas is mind boggling. There’s no doubt in my mind we’re entering ‘08 as being behind Philly and maybe even Atlanta. I could see a 3rd place finish next year.
Get rid of Omar. Obviously his first 2 years were great, but since the beginning of the ‘06 season, he’s done nothing to improve this team. He was given the blessing of ownership to increase payroll and given full autonomy but he has failed miserably. Time for a change.
How can you say Lidge is an upgrade in the Phillie pen? You put Lidge in and took out Myers. Lidge is a downgrade from Myers. So if you want to give them an upgraded rotation fine but you need to downgrade the pen. Brad Lidge hasn’t been good since the second that ball left Pujol’s bat two years ago. Lidge is also a guy who yields a ton of fly balls and now you put him in the smallest park in the bigs.
Omar hasn’t done anything wrong yet this offseason. He has signed the bench players that were needed and kept Alou and Castillio. He will get a catcher by spring trainging I promise and he has saved all his prospects even though none of them are that valuable anyway, Don’t kill the guy for the Phillies getting Brad Lidge.
Omar’s moves last year are also reasons for the criticism.
Wayneo….I’m glad you brought that point up. I think a lot of the fans frustration is not specific to this offseason, it comes from a combination of things ranging from the horrific end of the season collapse, lack of movement early with trades and free agency, bad moves from the front office last season (Bannister, Lindstrom, Owens, Bell, Ring, etc), neglect of the farm system to the point that we have no real valuable chips to trade for an ace. Also the signings of Mota, Sele and Shoenwiess to bulster the pen, then letting proven guys like Bradford and Oliver walk was another big mistake by Omar and Co. The frustration has been growing since Beltran struck out looking in game 7 of the NLCS.
Agreed…i’d rather be patient and end up with the guys Omar wants then make moves just for the sake of making moves for the fans and media. I don’t want to end up with the Mo Vaughns and Bobby Bonillas of the world when we can get Beltrans, Pedros, or Alous who can contribute to the team and seem like smart investments. Hopefully we get the starter(s) we want and need and some of th ebullpen help but I think the resigning of Castillo, especially if the minor knee surgery is all he needed, and resigning Castro are good moves thus far. If it’s true that Eckstein wanted all that money, there is nothing better than Castillo and he is the best #2 hitter for this team. With Castro, we get a great back up/platoon type guy as long as whoever else we get fits well with him. I have patience as long as we don’t get to the New year and the Castillo signing is out biggest move.
I know we are all still bothered by “the collapse” we all want a huge trade so we can look brightly toward 08…but I think we need to wait at least until Christmas for that to take place….unless the Dodgers trade for Cabrera I would say we are about 4th in the running for Santana or Bedard…at best…..I doubt we can get either….Im honestly thinking we will sign Livan and just let the season go with what we got….I am hoping that my Low expectations will pay off and Omar will surprise me….I am sure he has at least 2 possible deals already in the works , but who knows?? I just figure if I aim low…I wont be dissappointed.
Way too early to get on Omar about having a bad offseason so far this year, unless you want to say he should have gone hard after Arod.
I think most frustration over Omar comes from his poor 2007 offseason, his inability to correct that during the 2007 trade deadline and his overinflated reputation as a savior.
In reality Omar went out and threw a ton of money at Beltran, Wagner and Pedro and made 2 savvy trades to land Perez and Maine. That’s really about it from a positive sense.
Let’s look at Omar like a player. He had a good start then a terrible year. Let’s hope he bounces back now.
plus Marlon Anderson, Delgado for Jacobs, Lo Duca for basically nothing, El Duque for Julio….
I definitely don’t count Delgado for Jacobs or the lo Duca trade as a positive.
lo Duca shouldn’t have been acquired in hindsight. We should have gotten Hernandez or Molina. That’s what we’ve all been talking about the past few days. There’s talk we could go trade for one of them now.
He got El Duque for free essentially. But El Duque has been hurt more than he has been helpful. He was out when we needed him in the 2006 playoffs and he disappeared during key stretches of 2007.
I know you think you’re cute with your ellipses at the end there, but you were wrong on the three points prior to it.
Yes, Marlon Anderson was a good pickup. So was Endy Chavez. Gotay was a good move but he isn’t being played. On a whole, Omar didn’t do any real razzle dazzle with this team. He isn’t Theo Epstein or Billy Beane. He appears at this point just to be another General Manager, similar in a lot of ways to Brian Cashman. I think Omar got overpraised at first. So lets see what he does this year.
Let’s not forget that Omar hasn’t done anything with the draft yet either. But again, I think and hope he can figure that out this year. We should be draft bullies like the Yanks and grab kids who make outrageous salary demands sign them and then trade them in a few years when they’re blue chips.
Geez. That Delgado trade was terrible. Especially the way he hit in the post season, and in the second half where he indeed did very well. He, David Wright, Moises Alou and Lo Duca all hit well in September. Delgado, if healthy, could’ve had 30 HR. Did I mention that his postseason performance in 2006 was outstanding?
Since Delgado trade:
Delgado: .261/.336/.495, 62 HR, 201 RBI
Jacobs: .263/.322/.466, 37 HR, 131 RBI
Yeah, we shouldn’t have traded Jacobs.
7-Train: The fact that you added the phrase “in hindsight” makes your entire argument null and void.
Anyone can understand the frustration. When was the last time we heard something about the Mets that made us optimistic about their prospects (in both baseball senses)? People are clamoring for some sort of infusion of new talent untainted by the collapse still fresh in our minds.
That said, honestly, there hasn’t been much out there, and the farm system has not been good. The long term interests of the team would probably be best served by a top-down review of how they select and bring along young pitchers. There’s no magic formula, of course, but young pitching is the lifeline of a contender. Think Schuerholz (if you can keep your lunch down.)
I am probably missing someone, but since the glory days of the early 90’s, when they had Glavine, SMoltz and Maddux all hit together (kind of like the Yanks in ‘96 with 3-4 impact rookies together), what have the BRaves done in the pitching end?
Have they had a steady succession of stud starters flowing out ot the system?
I’m actually serious, I can’t remember who the heck they produced from their system. Was Hampton a product?
Well, that’s true, I suppose — they rode that one burst for a long time, and the Kevin Millwoods of the world weren’t all that great. But, they always had prospects at all positions, or at least the perception. I mean, do you doubt the strategy? Should the Mets NOT focus resources on producing pitchers? It seems like you can get the most bang for your buck that way (good young starter pre-arb — < $1M. Good young starter as FA — at least $13M per), but maybe it’s just too much of a crapshoot.
Here is the situation, when Omar and Co picked up Beltran, Pedro and others we had sense of confindence that Omar was turning the ship.
I think what is happening is that since then the FA market is not what it once was because teams have gotten wise to sign thier top tier FA’s before they hit the market to long term deals. At the same time teams have been burned by letting good young talent go for overpriced star players. So we are in a market where teams are rebuilding from with in for the most part except for the big market teams. And the small market teams have learned that they can extort top tier prospects for the ones they developed in deals.
In all fairness to Omar the game (of trades and Free agents) has changed even in the past 3yrs.
It doesn’t take away the fact I still want him to pull off some kinda blockbuster!!!!!!!!!!
I’m actually anti-blockbuster. Or at least, anti trading 6 top prospects for 1 pitcher.
Now, a real blockbuster would be 4-4 or 5-5, addressing mutliple needs!
ONe problem that we have is fans is incomplete information. Basically, we see a placid duck bobbing on the pond, and don’t see the 2 legs paddling like heck under the surface!
So, we have to react to the rumors/inuendo that floats accross the internet.
FOr instance, it was reported yesterday that Omar turned down Garza for Gomez. Now, did it really happen? Who knows. Maybe it was a much bigger talent haul back, maybe it was tabled, maybe it will be announced tomorrow.
But, I, as a fan, react to what was posted assuming it is factual. That is why I, personally, went off on Omar yesterday, assuming he did in fact turn down that gift of a deal (and exactly what the Mets need).
But, maybe it wasn’t a legit deal, or maybe he has something ready to pop that in his opinion will be even better that involves Gomez.
SO we rant and rave daily, but you have to wait unti opening day to see what the final product on the fileld is.
I will say, though, if he is passing up every smaller deal along the way hoping to trade everything for a mythical Ace (and probably get shut out) he is taking a big, big risk.
Wow — I sure hope that wasn’t true. Maybe he wants to keep Gomez and unload Milledge. Ugh.
I will say, however, that although I’m generally opposed to mortgaging the future, if there’s a Santana available (i.e., best pitcher in baseball), and you can lock him up, that you can do.
yes yes….manana…..let omar sleep a while longer…zzzzzzzzzzzz
after all, the other teams are sleeping too…right? right???
bottom line, mets remain the second rate ny team. period. arod was the key…and money talks.
Doesn’t Pedro really replace Glavine? This assumes Pedro is healthy of course and doesn’t miss too many starts.
That seems to be a nice upgrade in quality. I don’t think pedro will have an ERA around 4.33. Add in the 2 draft picks and this is a wonderful thing for NY.
I think El Duque would look great in the pen as a 7th/8th inning guy and also provide a spot starter if Pedro needs a break.
I also thing we could package Heilman/Humber and either Milledge or Gomez for a quality starter. A.J. Burnett could be a target as well as the other guys mentioned.
Pelfrey can have the 5th spot.
In theory Pedro would replace Glavine…The issue here is innings…I don’t think its a stretch to say that Pedro will pitch less than 180 innings, while Glavine was at 200IP. If you learned anything from 2007, it should be that taxing your bullpen on a daily basis is a no-no. And when you remove the one guy who was generally good for about 7 innings, and replace him with one who is out after 6, you are adding about 35 innings to go to the bullpen, every 5 days. On the surface, one extra inning every 5th day isn’t terrible, but what happens if they played extras the night before, or that they have several games without an off day, or the last pitcher didnt go very deep into his game?
What will exacerbate the problem further, is that you can’t really expect 7innings out of everybody…Obviously Ollie is a mixed bag, Maine will get you there more than Ollie, but he is no sure thing either. Pelfrey is even less of a given than Perez, and regardless of how well he does, he won’t top 150-170 IP. So it is a rather big problem here.
This is exactly why it is a must that Omar picks up one of the innings eater types that are available on the market (i.e. Livan) in addition to another ace-type, who can also give you innings. That way, it will easier to keep the ‘pen fresh for the whole year….Remember how great they were at the break? Number 2 in era behind SD…
Pelfrey has the ability to go deep into games… If he controls his fastball.
Perez averaged 6.1 innings per start.
Maine averaged barely 6.
Matt Garza has been tagged with great stamina multiple times by BA, John Sickels and Scouts, Inc.
In his 24 career MLB starts, he averaged 5.2 innings per start.
In the minors he averaged 6.
Any blame for Omar this winter has to go back to last winter.
His tweak of the pen last winter turned out wrong. His deal with the Padres was a wrong call. We have nothing to show for it and suffered from lack of effective arm options out there in 2007 and now lack of new available options for 2008.
His dealing Bannister was a wrong call. An additional starter with the abilities and results of the 2007 Bannister would’ve made a huge difference to the always lacking and shorthanded Mets rotation. It was a double edged botched deal because Burgos failed to help the shorthanded pen. We’d have quite a different scenario facing this winter of thin available starters if Bannister was still in the fold.
His Rule V call on Jesus Flores was wrong. Obviously, our present catching dilemma would be quite different if Flores was in our system.
And lastly.. the pink elephant in the room is the fact that Omar created a viably elite team with a very short window of opportunity. Yes, he made the Mets instantly credible as winners with his getting Fred to loosen the purse strings and by trading the farm system in the last Marlins fire sale of 2 years ago. But he created an aging and brittle team that’s predictably gotten older very quickly and has done it’s predictable time breaking down. The team Omar has for 2008 will be no different. It will be heavily dependent on aging, declining, breaking down players in the field and on the mound.
What players did he trade to the Marlins for Delgado and Loduca that would have helped us this year?
Omar has done nothing to hurt our future. In fact he has most likely turned down many trades for players that are our future.
Read my post again. I didn’t bash Omar for the Marlins deals. I never said or implied that Omar traded prospects we’d be fielding right now to Florida. The deals were what they were. They were a part in helping make the Mets instantly credible and an elite level team, but that elite window of opportunity was built to be fleeting. The real effectiveness of those trades for the Mets has come and gone already. That’s it.
The bottomline is while some may choose to back Omar and say this winter’s market conditions are tying his hands, I’d say that’d be a valid point if Omar was just named the GM last month and is inheriting this team from someone else. But he created the team with all the holes and decaying parts. Some were by blunders, some were by design (obviously, you know what you’re getting when you sign old and fragile players).
i agree totally with breadclock! This team was built to win in 06 and 07! their time has come and gone and it will be interesting to see if he can acquire significant starting pitching to at least give us a chance to not finish third!
Thanks Mike. IIt needed to be said. I get the impression short of signing Santana tomorrow for Mota and a wad of chewing gum, some people on this site are not going to be happy. We all are disappointed about the callapse at the end of the season, but unless you want to blame Minaya for not making a big move at the trade deadline, compaining about what has happened before even the winter meetings happened seems foolish.
Minaya to me has shown restraint that Steve Phillips never had, but still capable of moves that improve the team over the long haul (Those steals of contract extensions of Wright and Reyes).
Lets give him a chance to perform before we rag on him.
“Genius” and “Mets24″ are exactly the kind of bloggers that Nichols refers to in his post. Completely irrational.
You guys are all crazy to think that Omar is sleeping through the offseason.
He is working the phones and probably could make 8 trades today if he was so inclined. The market is heating up quick, and the Mets could be involved in a deal or two prior to the Winter Meetings. We all know we are getting a pitcher, question is, is it a certified stud/#1, or a younger guy who could grow into that role (Garza being one such possibility.) I am inclined to say the latter, but we’ll see. I continue to say that Omar will balk at the crazy asking prices and trade Milledge and a pitching prospect in AA or A for Blanton and another player. Blanton will then win 15 games with the Mets, and Pelfrey will have a breakout year.
I would rather they trade Gomez for Garza, who will win as many games as Blanton, ultimately have a much higher ceiling, etc. Oh, and you still have your starting RF, who, along with Pelfrey, is about to have a break out year.
The eight-ton elephant in the room is not the Collapse, it’s the Yankees. We have been inundated with Yankee news since the playoffs: Torre, A-Rod, Posada, Rivera, Chamberlain-Hughes-Kennedy, Hank Steinbrenner, etc. We have all been shellshocked by the Yanks’ publicity blitzkrieg.
It’s important for the Mets and Met fans to step back from all this. Do you want Omar to make moves just to make them, just to keep up with the Yankees, just so people will be talking about the Mets for awhile? Remember when the team did this type of thing just a few years ago? Burnitz, Vaughn, Stanton– all those back page photos, all those lousy players.
I want to see Omar be patient and strike when the right deal is ready. I don’t want the team wasting money on crappy players. I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. It’s only November 20. Thanksgiving is two days away. Patience!
Now wait a minute. I’m a realist, and I know you cant just turn the whole thing around in a week. I’m willing to give Omar and Co. a chance. At the start of spring training I’ll try to objectively look at the team and the totality of the manevuers he made to improve it. But if you think its unfair to question this team and its direction, this after his grand plans last year fell completely on its face in the way of the WORST collapse in the history of the sport, the Phillies gettting Lidge out of no where, no one seeming to know whos gonna catch for us this year, along with a series of other pretty important unanswered quesions(like who is gonna start for one)….then I have to disagree with you….
Omar – where are you? Resting on your ‘06 laurels again I see. What a pity – a man given full autonomy over a $125million budgeted payroll and still can’t pull the trigger on a big move.
If we take a poll of the readers on this site and asked the question what grade would you give Omar since the start of the ‘06 season, what do you think the mix would be. IMO:
A 0%
B 5%
C 20%
D 40%
F 35%
I think you could take 5% each away from D & F and add that 10% to C, then add another 10% to C because you know that Omar is giving 110%. This would make C the winner and it will never be higher than C unless/until the farm system starts producing major league talent.
I agree with most of the post but i think alot of the problems fans have with omar are not just about this offseason, the problems stretch back to last offseason, this trade deadline, and into this offseason. its almost like omar needed to pull off a trade the minute the season was over in order to get these people to calm down. the fact of the matter is until omar does something that will impact the 08 team positively the anti-omar sentiment will continue to grow amongst fans.
Part of the reason for the information overload seems to be people providing a lot of miss information and “respected” authors for large news organizations running with this as credible news. Olney seems to quote any idea that pops into someone’s head as a real trade proposal.
It seems like this offseason is moving faster because of all the rumors and more info we are hearing. I know I can be patient, its not March 1st yet…
It would be interesting to see a timeline for Omar’s moves over the last two offseasons. I know the big moves happened in Dec and Jan, but maybe seeing real dates would help others be a little more realistic about what is going on right now.
I’m judging him based on his 3 years here so far, not this one off-season.