|
According to the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Twins LHP Johan Santana rejected a five-year, $93 million offer from the Twins, and, instead, asked 
for $126 million, which is the same total that Barry Zito signed for last winter.
…hmm, the thing is, is that $126 million over five years, or is that $126 million over seven years…the report does not state which…the difference is paying santana $25 million per season, which is something i would think minnesota is unwilling to do, or paying him $18 million per season, which they already offered to do
In a recent chat for ESPN,com, Baseball America’s Jim Callis was asked if the Mets can put together a package capable of acquiring Santana, to which Callis responded…
“I can’t see the Mets putting such a package together. You could start with Lastings Milledge but I don’t see much else that would entice the Twins…Those guys don’t blow me away. Pelfrey and Humber aren’t what they were out of college. The Mets don’t have any pitching to give back.”
Of course, in the Minnesota Pioneer Press, Phil Miller lists Carlos Gomez among seven outfielders who could replace Torii Hunter for the Twins, while writing…
“One of the top outfield prospects in baseball, the 21-year-old Met is believed to be a Twins target if Smith decides to trade Johan Santana.”
However, Callis writes that the Mets could acquire A’s RHP Dan Haren by offering Milledge, Aaron Heilman and Kevin Mulvey.
Last week, at Rotoworld.com, Matt Pouliot took a look at 10 off-season trade candidates, while offering up equitable scenarios, in his opinion, under which each player could be moved.
According to Pouliot, the Mets would need to offer Milledge, Fernando Martinez and Heilman to land Haren, or give up Milledge, Pelfrey and Carlos Gomez to get Santana.
…this exercise, and the opinion of callis, is all well and good, and certainly fun to read and play with, but, the fact is, it’s a market system - not too mention that santana has a no-trade clause, and can more or less dictate where he ends up…that being said, as i have written before, it’s not so much about whether the Mets can top each team’s best package, it’s about who, besides the Mets, is willing to overpay in a trade to get him, knowing they can, but may not, re-sign santana to an extension…
 |
 |
 |
RSS 2.0 Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Why do the A’s want to dump Dan Haren?
That’s my question. He’s got to be a long way from arbitration/ free agency. It could be a numbers game, if anything — they want multiple young players, including position prospects. They also may feel that he isn’t quite as good as he was during the first half of last season.
Any time I read about young pitchers being made available (other than by big market teams looking for expensive vets in return), I question it — I can’t see why Bedard, Lincecum, or Haren would be dangled. That’s sort of like the early ’90s Braves dangling Smoltz or Glavine — doesn’t make sense.
I think that they know that when it comes to low revenue rebuiliding, it’s pretty much all or nothing.
Blanton or Haren make valid targets for the Mets. Would I deal Fernando Martinez for him? Would I deal Mike Pelfrey for him? No, because there are options like Blanton or Garza that don’t require us to trade Martinez, and we won’t get much in return for Mike Pelfrey.
I think there’s something wrong with Haren, in the A’s eyes, and they want to get rid of him quickly.
They said that they weren’t trading him. Now they’re getting Blanton and Haren’s value.
However his 4.15 second half ERA is moderately alarming.
He actually signed a dirt cheap multiyear extension before 2006. He’s contract for two seasons at a more than reasonable $9.5 million with a $6.75 million club option for 2010.
The thing is, I’ve heard discussion that his contract isn’t nearly as appealing if he’s traded because his option year would become voided for some reason. He also may be able to demand a trade after one season if he’s moved, since his contract was signed before the 2006 season and he probably has the require service time for the clause that allows a veteran to demand a trade, which wasn’t removed from the books until after 2006.
To provide a counter example, Erik Bedard never signed a multi-year extension. With the amount of service time he has, he would be elligible for FA after two more seasons, both of which he’d be up for arbitration. Thus, the rules that apply to Haren would not apply here.
So Billy Beane could really go either way with Haren. His lopsided value means he could stay put. Beane will be looking for someone to trade for the dirt cheap 3-year value he has to the A’s, while another GM has to be wary that its only a 2-year deal at most IF Haren likes the team he’s traded to. If Beane thinks the A’s only need one year of rebuilding and he can get the prospects he wants by trading Blanton and others (possibly including Huston Street, who I’d love on the Mets, and maybe Rich Harden if Beane can find some value there), I could see him holding onto Haren. But if he’s really set on a rebuilding period and can’t find the value he wants from some of his lesser pieces, he might also be inclined to actively shop Haren. It might also depend on the return Minnesota gets for Santana, as Beane could use that as good gauge of Haren’s trade value, so unless Beane decides to commit to a fire sale before the beginning of the winter meetings, I’d guess Santana will be moved first.
omar has to go after cliff lee from the indians, edwin jackson from the d’rays, and daniel cabrera from the orioles
both of them have/had alot of potential.
lee was great just 2 years ago and last year the indians gave up on him, so he can probably be had on the cheap.
edwin jackson was a #1 prospect who hasent lived up to complete expectations.
hes just 25 years old and on his 3rd team i believe.
cabrera is a right handed oliver perez. both were young and very wild with filthy stuff. maybe the jacket can fix him just like he did with maine and perez
just like omar was abel to get maine and perez quietly (essentially as throw ins) omar has to do something simlar for atleast one of these 2.
Cliff Lee had a good year at one point. Congrats. He wasn’t great as you have said, and if you look at the numbers, he, Ervin Santana, Daniel Cabrera and Edwin Jackson are just wastes of time.
Neither Cliff Lee or Ervin Santana have dominant stuff or the ability to be a consistant, and simply a good starter.
Daniel Cabrera is just a pitcher with decent stuff, and little to no combination of control, movement and speed that can actually do what pitchers are supposed to do: get batters out rather than give up runs.
Edwin Jackson is a failed prospect who I wouldn’t mind if we gave a AAA job and acquired a Haren, Blanton, Garza, Bedard or Johan Santana.
Because the As are in desperate need of position players. Many of their players are either injury prone, on the decline, traded or left via free agency. With the Angels, a division rival who by far have arguably the best rotation in the league, just officially acquired Tori Hunter, the A’s are well aware that they cannot compete so what is most logical, not trying to be bias here,but for me it would seem that it is best for the As to replenish their farm system with cheaper, elite prospects. Mention more than 3 players that are enticing trading proposals to achieve the above objective…..mmmm Hardly any. The only way the can get competent value in return is to trade Haren, Harden or maybe Street.
“With the Angels, a division rival who by far have arguably the best rotation in the league…”
???
Milledge, Pelfrey and Carlos Gomez ain’t gettin’ Santana. No how, no way.
I agree, I think we should go after Ervin Santana and Garza, I dont think a frontline starter is in our cards via trade this year.
I thnk Ervin Santana is a waste of time. He is a pitcher with less than dominant stuff who has an career low 4.28 ERA, with a career high that he achieved this year in the high 5s. Outside of his home ballpark in his career his ERA is nothing short of dreadful. His is the Angels’ own personal Carlos Silva.
Amen to that.
I have to wonder if Maine could be dangled. I can’t see him being successful in that park, though, and although Santana is a HUGE upgrade over Maine, it would open up another hole in the rotation.
In other news, I really doubt these teams are interested in Heilman, the reliever. I get the sense that the Mets may be kicking themselves if he turns into a productive middle of the rotation guy for another team. We all know that the bullpen was overworked late in the year — the idea that Heilman is “too important to the bullpen to start” was logically faulty to begin with, and just doesn’t hold water in light of last year’s experience. If they do keep him (unlikely), I’d love to see him thrown into the mix as an option for the fifth starting spot.
Moving Heilman to the rotation has been discussed and it must be on the table now. Has to be. Not for the fear of him being gone and blossoming into a nice starter on some other team but for the fact that we need starting pitching here. He has paid his dues and performed admirably as a reliever. He should be given the opportunity to start.
With a rotation of Pedro, Maine, Perez and Heilman, we coudl move Duque to the pen and begin looking to shore up the #5 spot in the rotation with a Garza type. Then, we would need to make one move in the pen to replace as best we can the production expected from Heilman as a reliever. Trading for Joe Nathan is one option. Signing F Cordero is another.
Stop picturing other teams’ closers as your eight inning setup men. It would be a preposterous waste of resources to trade big chips for a closer just to stick him in the eighth inning.
Sorry Slob but I won’t. You see I look at the team beyond next year. Wagners deal ends at the conclusion of next year as does Pedros. His replacement is necessary to begin at least looking for. Nathan could be traded for, signed long term and then assume the role. F Cordero could also..at least be signed now to get him rather than traded for and then assumes the closer role in 2009.
I also have the benefit of perspective. I have seen a few teams that have closed games out after the 7th inning. In recent memory, the Yanks did it with Riviera and Wettland. Get the ball to them with a lead through 7 and the game ended.
Stop telling me what to write.
I get your point…you see it as either a waste of money or not realistic to spend on “2″ closers. I don’t. If we cant spend our NY advantage with our heavy financial resources, what good is it?
I don’t think it’s a waste of money, but it’s unrealistic, more unrealistic than acquiring Santana. Why would another teams closer want to go somewhere and become a setup man? It makes no sense. Joe Nathan is probably the best closer in baseball over the past 4 seasons….there is NO way he would accept being a setup man, nor is there any way the Mets or anyone else should turn him into one. If they somehow get him, he would be the closer, not Wagner, and there’s NO way Wagner accepts not being a closer. Even if the Mets do make that happen, there would be some serious clubhouse issues. This is a real baseball team, not a fantasy team or a video game…you wouldn’t go out and sign ARod, trade for Miguel Cabrera and Scott Rolen, all while keeping Wright, and just put them all at different positions.
And the Rivera/Wetteland comparison doesn’t work, because Rivera was a Yankees prospect that they brought up, who had never established himself as anything other than a good prospect when the Yanks made him a setup man. Very similar to Joba this past year.
Garza would definitely be the #4, if not the #3 ahead of Ollie. Eventually, will probably be better than both.
In response to gowrightgo, it is very rare for a starter to be successful, especially with two pitches. If he can’t get his ERA under 3 once as a reliever, than he can’t possibly be that great of a starter.
Did I mention that he already had his chance to start? He was quite dreadful as well.
No one tries starting for 2 years, fails, goes to the bullpen for 3 years and magically becomes a starter again. When you become a reliever, especially a setup guy, your body becomes especially adapted to that role, and starting would probably end up in a miserable failure.
Francisco Cordero signed with the Reds anyway.
Can you tell me what Heilman’s third pitch is? I know he has fastball/change-up. Relievers have two quality pitches.
Starters have three or more.
The third time through the lineup is what separates starters from relievers.
I thought Heilman was working on a third pitch. Maine’s has been a work in progress, too.
Not saying it’s a surefire solution, but it’s certainly cheaper than a lot of the alternatives.
he had a slider in college–a good one, iirc. no idea what happened to it.
We have been been hearing that Heilman has been working on a third pitch for three years now.
For some reason, it seems like Minnesota LOVES Gomez…we need to capitalize on this. Offer them Gomez and whatever they want for Johan!
http://www.mlbfleecefactor.com
I think a lot of teams seem to prefer Gomez to Milledge. Gomez has less value to the Mets, I think, because offensively, he’s more of a leadoff hitter — very Reyes-like (at best) — and he isn’t a power hitter at Shea. And, let’s face it — Milledge may be perceived to have character issues that Gomez doesn’t have. (I, for one, think that’s BS — in fact, Gomez does his share of hot-dogging — but these things are amplified in the press and potentially front offices wary of trading for character problems.)
the lead-off hitter comment is very astute…we take it for granted because we have Reyes, but few teams have a true lead-off guy to plug in, making Gomez much more valuable to other teams than the Mets, the Twins included. This makes his lack of power a moot point, and his speed and defense even more valuable. His range should make him a pretty good center fielder. He just needs to mature a little as a hitter, and I think he’s already come a long way on that.
Milledge’s perceived character issues come from his cornrows, rap album, etc, baggage a non-american wouldn’t really come with (not condoning just stating). That said, Gomez surely has a little hot dog in him, but that’s a good thing I’d say.
If you are referring to a guy who will steal a lot of bases as a true leadoff man, I don’t think that it matters as much in the AL as it does in the NL. With the DH, AL teams are more interested in having a guy with a high OBP at the top of the lineup. They are less prone to run with an extra RBI bat in the middle of the lineup.
hmm .. good point. I guess that’s why I like NL ball better, to a fault where i forget how much different it is in the AL. I’m a big speed fan, it makes the game so much more interesting to me than a bunch of sluggers.
I’m thinking that the statheads underrate speed now because they seem to be working under the assumption that the .250/.350/.500 slugger (who was underrated in the old school) is freely available.
But one of the key factors of the value of sluggers is that they come at such a premium. Unless you’re at the top end of payroll spectrum, you’re going to have to add value to your team some other way, and while speed should not be overvalued either, it can be of great value used properly.
Ask Jose Reyes, who, I believe, scored over 70% of the times he was on base last year and did not get caught stealing.
Note that I mean he scored that much when he did not get caught stealing and not that he never got caught stealing…working late…
If Santana wants Zito Money, then give it to him. he is better than Zito
santana will want to go to a contender. i dont think alou and delgado will attract him. miss beltran either. arod woulda helped…but, oh right…mets dont need a bum like him.
omar has to move fast. the off season aint like it used to be.
Santana will be attracted to whatever team can afford his next contract of 7yrs and 140 M.
I think he would not mind at all being traded to the METS because they are close and he could be the difference maker.
There are several teams that could afford to pay his $140 million (or much more for that matter) but of those teams, who is willing to part with the necessary talent and fit his contract into their payroll? This could thin out a suitor or two.
Thing is, he really can more or less dictate who where he gets traded. Haven’t we read that he was really close to Castillo? Every little edge may count.
When you’ve got so much money coming to you, then it’s the human elements that may make the difference. You’re right that he could be the difference maker for the Mets. It’s always nice to have that kind of power. He should ask Pedro.
I think you are on point. The Dodgers have the prospects but won’t spend the money. The Yankees have the money but won’t deal the prospects. Perhaps the Cubs or Sox are the competition although I don’t think the Cubs will spend the money. The Mets are more thin on prospects than the Sox, but can pay what it takes to sign Santana.
I think the Redsox are the biggest competition. The Twins may have to accept less to trade Santana due to his contract demands. They may be thinking about keeping him, but remember how Bowdin messed up Soriano from the Nationals and got only a draft choice in return.
No question the Dodgers can afford him. It’s not like they don’t have a good sized payroll already, but an extra $20 million a year is pretty affordable for them. The real question is, will they even go after a pitcher? They were asking about Bedard but the price will be around Matt Kemp, Clayton Kershaw and either James Loney or Andy LaRoche a steep price for an addition that they don’t really have to have. They probably would give away their youngsters for Miguel Cabrera, especially with the Angels as competition. I don’t see the Dodgers testing the free agency, as they already have Ethier, Pierre and Kemp.
I see a deal along the lines of Clayton Kershaw, Matt Kemp and Jon Meloan for Miguel Cabrera.
I also suspect that the Angels will make a run at Miguel Tejada.
As for the Yankees, they said they wouldn’t get rif of Kennedy, Hughes or Chamberlain for a position player, and didn’t say anything about Johan Santana. And with their dire rotation needs, I predict a deal in the making.
With the Red Sox adamant about keeping Ellsbury, Pedroia and Buchholz, a deal with their rather barren farm system seems miles away.
Leaving the Mets as huge front runners in the ace pitching market. The question is, Bedard or Haren?
how do you figure the mets aren’t a contender?
b/c he’s the genius
you truly have no baseball knowledge besides that of a video game..
The mets are a contender…he would want to go to us, why wouldn’t he? OK so what Alou and Delgado won’t attract him..
Wright, Reyes, his rumored buddy Castillo, Beltran, a few young pitchers…we have a solid core ..we did not need arod ….
GIVE UP THE AROD TALK!! PLEASE! Your posts would have much more value if you didn’t bring up ARod in every single post.
Anyone have any rule 5 draft ideas? Know of any of the guys not protected that look interesting and might fit our needs in the future? Catcher? 2b? 1b?
P from Kansas City according to Olney’s blog
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/royals/story/372194.html
Gomez, Gotay, Pelfrey, Mulvey, Maine ….thats not bad? Then swap Milledge and Heilmann 4 Dtrain …..and give Fmart a chance in ST to win the job, if not go get Fukodome.
we still keep Humber , and Fmart. Not too bad..I know this would never happen , but I can dream.
I only comment on trade proposals of I find them intriguing or painfully bad.
I find I must rouse from my slumber for this one…
Gomez, Gotay, Pelfrey, Mulvey, Maine ….thats not bad? Then swap Milledge and Heilmann 4 Dtrain
Those might be 2 the worst serious proposals I’ve ever heard.
You’re giving away one of the leagues premier setup men and your starting right-fielder who’s got a shot at being an all star next year to say nothing of the future for the most dangerously inconsistent pitcher in baseball?
You’re giving away one near-bona-fide no.2 pitcher and two spots on the rotation for Santana? What are you going to fill the other three slots with? Lawrence? Silva?
Is there anything that bedazzled Met’s fans won’t trade for Santana? I thought Seth “trade Reyes for Santana and sign ARod” Everett was uniquely dumb, but who knows?
Wait — who’s the all-star next year? Milledge? Please, let’s not get carried away. I mean, any talented player has a “shot”, but don’t count on it. He’s a young player, and still pretty raw.
Well I guess u should apply for the GM job ..genius….I was just proposing an idea..we would still keep our top OF prospect,and Humber…not to mention we would have a gr8 rotation….and we could easily acquire a bat for RF…Millz will not be an all star for a lot of years pal…so just making that comment shows me u have no clue. Prospects that have had chances and still not shown promise (Pelfrey,Gomez horrible batter) will never measure upto what Santana could do …and Heilmann wont be missed when Padilla and Sanchez are back..not to mention when we acquire another set up man.
but you said dtrain, not santana.
No matter what anyone said, this idea is dumb. It gives us a rotation of Santana, Pedro, Perez, and ome inconsistant crap at the end, and it also gives us a nice open gap in rotation spots, rightfield, left field, catcher and first base for next year. I think that rotation is worse than the one that we have now.
You are one of the worst posters in this group Til….Our rotation if we made those trades would be:
Pedro
Santana
Livan (def signing)
Dtrain
OP
are u kidding me?? sick!!
Fmart will be a solid option in RF…and our bullpen will be ok when Padilla and Sanchez return.
I guess I still don’t see how you’re getting both dtrain and santana …
But Livan and D Train are crap, no? Crap past their primes.
And in 09 we’ll have Santana, Perez. and then crap.
Yesterday, in a post, I mentioned the following deal:
Santana for Maine, Heilmann, Gomez, and Martinez. Two proven major leaguers, one young outfielder they love and a future outfielder that could be a stud.
We keep Milledge, Pelfrey, and Humber.
Starters
Santana
Pedro
Perez
Pelfrey
Hernandez (Livan or Orlando)
That’s an awful lot of talent leaving the system.
That’s an awful lot of talent coming into the system, too, but yeah, it’s one guy, and if he develops arm problems. . . . And counting on Pelfrey as the fourth starter? Counting on Pedro to stay healthy? Yikes.
Still, that’s what it would take, and I’d actually pull the trigger on that — you keep Milledge, Wright, Reyes, Beltran — you have a young offensive core, and you still have what the organization passes for pitching prospects — Mulvey, Guerra . . . but I still think the Dodgers could produce a more enticing package. As an aside, Imagine being Sabean when your rival spends the exact same money and gets Santana, while you’re stuck with Zito. (Not that Zito won’t or can’t improve on last year, but let’s get real, here. There’s little comparison.)
the point of getting an ace is to add him to what we have
the rotation next year must include pedro, maine, perez, and the ace we need tp acquire.
if we trade maine in a deal for santana, we will still have 2 holes in the rotation.
True, but Maine is easier to replace than a true #1 starter in his prime. If it takes Maine, that might be what Omar has to do. Then he could either give Livan a few years or throw money at a younger back of the rotation arm. Sure we lose Maine, but this team desperately needs an ace. And a rotation of Santana, Martinez, Perez, Livan/Silva, and Pelfrey and bumping El Duque to the pen would be the making of a pretty good pitching staff. Sure, I’d rather get away with having Maine over Livan/Silva, but if its not possible I think its a route that has to be considered. Giving up Maine and Milledge in a package is probably where I draw the line, because then two major acquisitions would still be necessary. But I think one or the other could be in play for sure.
You’re really sacrificing depth in the rotation if you do that. You’re also putting a lot on Mike Pelfrey’s and Humber’s shoulders, ’cause then that’s Pelfrey and Humber or Silva on the back end.
If anything, you trade Perez, since he’s eligible for free agency in ‘09 while you control Maine, but it’s not worth it anyway. If you trade Maine, then your rotation in ‘09 is Santana, Pelfrey, Humber and that’s it. You have no other pitchers signed beyond ‘08.
Think of it this way. Is (Santana-Maine) – money differential > (Santana + Maine)*(probability that Santana goes to free agency)?
That is, is Maine valuable enough so that it’s worth taking the chance on a big-time pitcher hitting free agency in ‘09 allowing us to keep both and not give anything up?
I would argue yes, Maine’s value is worth the risk that no big-time pitcher signs for free agency.
I know we have to give to get, but I’d be more apt to trade Perez then Maine, Maine has been very good and more consistant then Perez. Think they’d take Perez? He is closer to free agency so i’m thinking no but i’d still rather trade him then Maine
I hope the Twins just offer him the Zito contract and he takes it so we can stop hearing about obscene trade proposals for a rental for the guy. Although it sounds like Omar has already dropped his shorts promising to get a big name SP, so back the truck up and take the farm.
That should set the team back about 3 years when they can’t fill any other hole.
Trading a ton for Haren is also worrisome. Partly because he makes no sense to be traded, unless there is something wrong with him. His 2nd half numbenrs also weren’t great last year.
Beane just has a track record of trading SPs that immediately flame out, so just the fact that he will trade him makes you wonder.
Overall, the team will do better IMO for the next few years (including 2008) if they can hold onto the developing talent, especailly Milledge and the pitching, and make a deal like GOmez for Garza (since it was reported as being on the table).
If Santana does hit the FA market, then open the checkbook. Just don’t trade every viable prospect for 1 year then open the checkbook anyway, even further!
The problem is that there’s no guarantee any of our current prospects will ever win 10 games or hit more than 25 hr’s in a season. Alex Ochoa, Alex Escobar, Billy Traber, Bobby Jones, Generation K, Gregg Jefferies–that’s just off the top of my head.
From what I’ve seen of Humber and Pelfrey, they have nothing special.
Milledge can be a decent player, but he might never get there. Gomez might be a better football player than a baseball player.
Although I think the Twins should get no more than 2 prospects for a rental, there’s no guarantee that these prospects will be worth a damn down the road.
It also worries me that Omar’s not keeping his cards closer to his chest.
There’s no guarantee that Johan Santana will lead the team to a World Championship.
No, no guarantee at all. But if Johan gives you 4-5 years of Cy Young contending years, he’s worth every cent and prospect we give away.
The prospects (except FMart whom I’ve yet to see) we have will be average major leaguers at best.
Um…no.
Even 4 Cy Young contending years aren’t worth every prospect we give away.
Forgive me if I cannot take your pronouncement that our prospects will become “average major leaguers at best” seriously. Milledge, for one, is average at age 2 2 with limited playing time; and Pelf has been much better sinceshutting out the Braves in one of the biggest games the Mets played.
Nobody knows anything about how our prospects will turn out, just like nobody knows whether or not Santana suffers a career ending injury next year. You play the odds. The odds are in Milledge’s favor right now.
Met fans and their love affair with Milledge remind me of Jet fans who had a similar love affair with Wayne Chrebet…people swear this kid is better than what he really is….
When did Pelfrey shutout the Braves? If so, he can be the next Dave Mlicki. Good for him.
If you’ve never played more than 60 games/season at 22yo, you don’t qualify to be average.
Yup, Santana might blow out his arm. Better not sign him. Let’s just keep a huge stable of prospects and never go after big time players.
Whoa — one good start and Pelfrey’s too important to the puzzle to trade for Johan freakin’ Santana?
And this “rental” business . . . I have to think a team trades for him only with a chance to negotiate with him now.
Milledge doesn’t yet look “average,” and scouts think he has a power ceiling that’s lower than a lot of the wilder predictions. I’m normally loathe to trade prospects for veterans, but the Mets’ pitching is really getting close to crisis mode. I don’t think we can count on the prospects to be anything, at this point. An ace like Santana elevates us above the Phils and Braves. Without him, prospects are not good, no pun.
Sorry man, Milledge’s OPS+ last year was around 105. He was slightly better than average. At 22.
I have eyes also, for watching and for reading, not just for gazing into the lofty air of Santana
I don’t think we got a very good sample of Milledge, actually. Give him a few trips around the league before christening him untouchable.
Agree with most of your points except one.
I think the Mets pitching (if we’re looking to contend for a title) is already in crisis mode. We’ve been in crisis mode for some time now.
What now, are you hoping that Milledge fails or somethin?
Are you testing my Mets fanhood?
If that trade for Haren could actually happen, I would be somewhat open to it, if the Mets were willing to open their checkbooks after the deal. Signing Andruw Jones and Franciso Cordero (while not likely at all) would have to happen in order to offset the loss of Heilman and Milledge (and also be an upgrade at each of those positions for the ‘08 season). At least Cordero to the pen and a Jose Guillen type for RF. Doubting that Cordero would be open to setting up, would the Mets have enough left after that trade for Haren to secure Joe Nathan (Gomez and Pelfrey or Humber)? And like posted above, would there be enough ego room in the pen for Nathan and Wagner to co-close for the ‘08 season?
This is how you build a bullpen. And it doesn’t involve trading for or signing other teams’ closers.
One of the points he makes is that he looks for failed starters in other systems that can be had on the cheap. Surprise surprise, what do the Mets have? Two essentially failed starting pitching prospects in Humber and Pelfrey.
Can’t you wait until guys are at least 24 before announcing them to be failures?
Lord.
I don’t think they’re failures. Hell, it seams like I’m the only guy here who wants to keep them.
I think Humber has lost a lot of value and certainly doesn’t come close to sustaining expectations.
I feel that Pelfrey isn’t failed, that he has decent stuff but needs to control his fastball.
I highly doubt the mets can get Haren for Mulvey and Heilman. If thats true the mets would have jumped all over that.
If we cant get Haren off them I would try to get Blanton and Harden. I would give them Heilman Milledge and Mulvey or Gomez and Mulvey.
Blanton would be a solid starter and Harden is the high risk high reward guy. If he stays healty he would be our ace. He has great stuff.
I cant stand reading articles and fans write that the Mets dont have enough for Johan. It comes down to who will be the Mets comp. The Mets best offer of 2 of the 3 of prospects and either 1 or 2 pitching prospects(not Maine) are way better than any secondary offers from the Yankees, Sox, and Dodgers. If any of those teams wanted to offer there best deal, then yes, the Mets would be out of it.
ANy fan who doesnt think giving up 4 of those prospects for Johan is nuts. The only way the Mets would do it is if they could sign Johan before the trade is executed. So if a deal is done who cares about the prospects…your getting the best pitcher in the game, in his prime, who has perfect mechanics, switching to the nl …what more do you want?
The only deal breaker for me would be if Johan wants to go past 5 yrs. Ill give him 25 a yr for 5 yrs but if he wants 6 and 7 years then I might reconsider. I would push hard for 5 yrs and give in to the 6th yrs if need be. Absolutely would not give him 7 yrs though. That would be the deal breaker for me.
Mets are gonna land a front line starter though. I would even look into Harrang.
If an ace cant be obtained. I would try to get Ervin Santana from the Angels. You prob could get him at a descent price.
considering the market, and Zito’s precedent, I’d say Johann will want 7 years.
Considering Zito’s precedence, Santana is worth 7yrs for 380 million.
No joke.
Harden has electric stuff. He just can’t stay healthy.
Billy Bean suposeably loves both Milledge and Heilman. Maybe he sees Heilman as a SP where the Mets don’t. Maybe he is trying to tweak his old P coach by taking one of his RP and proving him wrong by making him a SP. I would offer both of them for Haren + Humber or Pelfrey. For Blanton, only Mildege stright up or if Heilman, if it needs to be combo we need something else back.
I truly think Haren is a stud ace and would be great in P’ers park like Shea and the new Citi field. Hopefully we can get him.
Anyone remember what happened last time we got a 29 year old Cy Young award winner from the Twins?
Viola? 20 wins? or are you thinking of someone else?
I think he’s referring to how amazing David West was for the Twins.
No, in fairness, the Twins won a World Series in 1991, and Kevin Tapani and Rick Aguilera played major roles. . . but, come on, that has absolutely nil to do with this potential trade. I can just see the Twins hoisting the 2010 trophy with Pelfrey and Gomez and major contributors. . . . No . . . no, I can’t.
dayam!!
The similarities are uncanny. Better not touch Santana.
Slow work day and apparently a slow news day here also. Lots of good arguments as to why we are not getting or should get Santana.
What is fun is to hear the posters who talk about what it will definitely take to get Santana. Guys here tend to devalue all our prospects and think it is impossible to get Santana without either giving up Reyes or Maine or at least 4 prospects.
For Perspective on an ace involved in a trade….look no further than the Beckett deal. Boston Got….Beckett, Mike Lowell and get this…Guillermo Mota for a total of 4 prospects that went to Florida. 1 big hitting positional prospect (Hanley Ramirez), 1 big pitching prospect (Anibel Sanchez) and filler (Jesus Delgado) and Harvey Garcia (Pitching prospect). Boston refused to part with Lester in the deal (they thought he was their best pitching prospect at the time)
That is 4 prospects of which 2 were considered big in return for a controllable pitcher in Beckett and the baggage of Mike Lowell plus a fireballing steroider in Mota.
Now…..review for a moment the trade proposals we have heard on this site for Santana (an ace who is older and just one year left on his deal plus no other players in the deal)
Santana is not getting more than 2 prospects back in any deal unless he signs an extension and if he does…max going back is 3 prospects (2 excellent ones and 1 filler)
We have no prospect close to Hanley Ramirez in any proposed deal. Also, fair or not, Santana is considered better than Beckett.
Ramirez, 21 at the time and in AA, was seen as the jewel of the system for Boston but his production was actually worse than our 21 yr old Milledge at AA. Here is link to article on the Beckett deal…
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2232211
To copy from that ESPN article directly….
“In return, the Red Sox gave up Ramirez, their much-ballyhooed shortstop prospect, and Sanchez. The Marlins originally had targeted left-hander Jon Lester, but Boston balked at including him in the trade, so the Red Sox agreed to add a second minor leaguer if Florida took Sanchez instead, a source told Stark.”
” Ramirez, who turns 22 next month, is considered to be Boston’s top prospect. He hit .271 with six homers and 52 RBI at Double-A Portland. Ramirez was selected for the Double-A Eastern League All-Star Game as well as the Futures Game for the World team. Ramirez was twice named the Red Sox top prospect by Baseball America. “
Lastings by comparison spent only 48 games at AA that year and batter .337 OBP .392 Slugging per .897 with 4 hrs, 25 rbi and 11 stolen bases.
Lastings would have been seen as a better prospect or at least a more polished one.
As my not shock you (or shouldn’t), it’s not always performance in short stints in the minors that orders players. I don’t think anyone thinks Milledge will approach Ramirez offensively.
Probably correct. Ramirez has blossomed into probably one of the top 5 hitters in the league last year with his combination of power and speed and hitting for avg. My point in posting was not to suggest Milledge will definitely be as good or better in his ML career. Just that a deal was struck for one very good positional prospect and one very good pitching prospect plus filler for an ace.
Regardless of what you think Milledge is right now, he is still a prospect. More so than Ramirez is now. Mostly because of the shuffling he got with the METS and the lack of ML playing time. I think his value is similar to what it was then. Hence, I think Milledge plus one form the group of Humber, Mulvey, Guerra or Pelfrey plus some filler is a good starting point for an ace in his last year of a contract. That assumes they throw us something useful back in addition to Santana.
Well, I don’t think that would do it, and for one simple reason: the Dodgers or Yankees — if either is interested — could and would offer more.
They could afford more but there is no indication they will. It is clear that the Dodgers Dbacks Angels and to a smaller degree the yanks have some gems in their system that shine a bit brighter but they have to part with a similar package to get Santana and there has been little suggesting they will.
It is not a given that we would come up short. What is a given is that we will be involved
For Perspective on an ace involved in a trade….look no further than the Beckett deal.
also, if you remember, the baggage that WAS Mike Lowell was a considerable salary dump at the time.
he was owed 18 mil and the sox had very little expectations of receiving anything on the field for that money.
True. That was why yesterday I tried to start a thread concentrating on buying other teams mistakes along with an ace. I used a poor example in Zito and the Giants. My suggestion was concoct a trade for Zito and Cain or Zito and Lincecum for some combination of our prospects like Milledge, Guerra and Mulvey or Gomez, Pelfrey and Humber etc.
The idea was to take advantage of another teams mistake and with our $$$$$ resources, use the money advantage to our benefit. Giants do not have money like the METS and would love to be out from that contract. I was not sure about Zito having a no trade but he likely does as the Boras machine negotiated that contract.
You could also look at the Blue Jays. Trade them lesser prospects that the above mentioned ones for AJ Burnett and Vernon Wells. Both are money dumps for them. Burnett can’t stay healthy and Wells had a terrible year after signing a big extension. It would take one of the Milledge, Gomez group and filler to get that one done in my opinion.
Any trade for Santana would involve younger players on our 25. I’d think you’d have to throw John Maine into the equation along with either Pelf/Humber, Milledge/Gomez and one of our relievers, probably Heilman. It would be a steep, steep price but worth it if we could negotiate an extension.
We better start improving our scouting. We got no arms on the farms
No. not worth it.
see gowrightgo above.
NEW TOPIC!!!!!!
We need an update before the comment tally goes to 1000
4JoeOrsulak,
Whom would you give up for Santana? contract signed and contract unsigned?
Good question…
Unsigned, any 2 of Mulvee, Humber, and Gomez
Signed…same as above, except you can upgrade either Gomez to Milledge OR Humber to Pelf. OR take all three without the upgrades.
Seems fair to me, particularly since the deal hurts a bit to make. If they ask for more, they aint gettin’ it.
Never happen…not for the best pitcher in Baseball.
agreed.
Although to get him unsigned, I wouldn’t give up much either.
for the price of santana and the cost and risk of signing him to a 7 year contract id much rather see the mets send their chips out for 2 relatively young controllable pieces..
Heilman, Milledge and a third piece to Oak town for Haren
and then
Gomez and Pelf to Minney for Garza
then go out and fill right field with Guillen or (shudder) Andruw
Haren, Garza and Jones are a much better use of 20 mil than 7 yrs of Santana and Millz (assuming Johan will cost heilman, millz, gogo and Pelf
I agree with you except I wouldnt want Andruw Jones anywhere near this team. I hate Jones as I do every Brave, as I did Glavine who I never wanted here. Its hard to sell me on a guy I root so hard against for a decade to be on a team I love so much.
However I love the idea of getting Garza. I have written post after post about it being a move Omar has to make. He is 5 years younger than Santana and can be an ace. Then we keep Milledge for RF who I think can be an All-Star for the next decade.
Jones was just a placeholder in the theory. and i agree about the disdain for ex braves.. but 4 the right price..
My main main point is for that you’d pay JS in players, years and $$ you could get TWO pitchers under control and fill in right field with a serviceable free agent until Fernando! the real deal is ready.
of course if you really think Millz is an all star for 10 years you dont move him at all.. i think that may be a stretch though…hope u r right on that.
Again I agree with you on something….Fernando Martinez is my favorite prospect in our organization. He IS the real deal but unfortunatly a few years away. I was always sour on Milledge until this year. I just see him as a Gary Sheffield type of hitter as he matures. If we can get Garza for Gomez I would be ecstatic. I do not think Gomez will be that good as the years go by. Yes he is fast but I dont think he will develop into a power hitter or an average hitter. You dont want an OF who has all this speed yet doesnt get on base to put it to use. If Bill Smith (my name coincedently) of the Twins loves Gomez so much then we try to use him for Santana first and if not then Garza isnt a bad second choice at all. He may even be a better choice. I like your thinking though Biggie.
No Andruw Jones and for Christ’s sake no Jose Guillen.
Let’s just go back in time and draft Garza instead of Pelfrey.
True that. Wouldnt that have been a better draft pick!
As much as I hate Andruw Jones, I would rather him than Jose Guillen (the steroid user) on my team any day. At least Jones has 50 homer potential.
well since we cant go back in time and change the draft and you think the Mets pitching (if we’re looking to contend for a title) is already in crisis mode.
how do you add quality starting pitcher(S) unless you give up prospects?
Guillen has been way above average for the past 4 yrs and Omar has said steroid issues wont stop him.
i could care less who the RF is.. get Fukodome then,..we competed for 1.5 yrs with Shawn greene there..
just stay away from Santana and his high price in years, money and prospects..
We need to get Santana. I don’t understand the hesitation. He’s the front line pitcher we’ve been missing since Doc.
Guillen is a cancer. There I go using the ‘c’ word again and Andruw is a Brave, although less so than “Mr. All I want is my 300 wins.”
Please, no more Japanese players. No more.
Let’s see, anything else?
the hesitation on santana is
1. he will cost a TON of prospect / players
2. He will cost a seven year contract for a pitcher
3. he will cost at least 20 mil a year.
4. he says he’s 29 – but we really dont know. even so.. we are paying a kings ransom what was not what will be
5. ever hear of Frank Viola?
6. one pitcher to this staff will not make a difference. we need more pitchers with higher ceilings.
Exactly. While I dont feel as strongly opposed to Santana I would much rather have Garza who is 23, controlable for a much cheaper rate, and has a huge upside. We also dont have to give up our entire farm system.
the hesitation on santana is
1. he will cost a TON of prospect / players
True, ideally, I’d rather he hit the market and we overpay OR the other teams backoff and we can get him.
2. He will cost a seven year contract for a pitcher
So what? He’s the best pitcher out there, bar none.
3. he will cost at least 20 mil a year.
20 mil is a bargain? Give him 22mil as a bonus.
4. he says he’s 29 – but we really dont know. even so.. we are paying a kings ransom what was not what will be
Ok, you might have a point here. We cna do some background check can’t we?
5. ever hear of Frank Viola?
For your argument’s sake, I would not be throwing Viola’s name around. It doesn’t make you sound very bright.
6. one pitcher to this staff will not make a difference. we need more pitchers with higher ceilings.
I don’t want to bother writing about how important pitching is. You should know this. An ace has a trickle down effect that is immeasurable. We haven’t had that ace in decades.
For your argument’s sake, I would not be throwing Viola’s name around. It doesn’t make you sound very bright.
in case you are too young or not bright enough to remember Frank Viola I’ll summarize..
Frank was A NY local product who once pitched for the Twins(not really relevant). In 1988 he won a Cy Young for them after going 24 – 7. He threw 240 plus innings for 6 straight years and was widely considered the Top pitcher in the game at that time.
During that period the NY Mets were considered one big pitcher away from getting back to the WS. They had , of course, won in 1986 and lost a heart breaker in 1988. Sensing a chance to add that Top pitcher (who was 29 years old at the time) the Mets traded three top prospects to the Twins (sound familiar yet) for the ace pitcher they sought. Dwight Gooden was the ace of the staff at the time but was going thru some personal problems that i can get into if you’d like.
In any event.. in the interest of keeping this short (and maintaining your attention span), the mets got their “Ace” in Viola and while he performed admirably, even winning 20 games in 1990, the Mets otherwise did not seriously compete for the WS during Violas tenure. which ended with him leaving in 1991 to sign with Boston as a free agent..
Oh.. and BTW, he had ligament replacement surgery (this is bad) after signing his big contract
with the Red Sox and at the age of 33 was largely ineffective for the rest of his career.
this is the story of Frank Viola… print it out if you need to.
one other point.. The Twins , who got our three prospects int he trade, won the World Series in 1991.
Now, what was your argument about how Santana is worth emptying the pantry of our prospects and our bank account of 7 years at 20 plus mil a year when he is 29 years old?
I couldn’t agree with you more. One of the pitchers the Twins got, Rick Aguilera, became an effective closer for them.
Back in days of yore, the ‘70s to be precise, the Mets had Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman and Jon Matlack in their rotation. Back then starting pitchers used to go deep into games. When the Mets came to town opposing hitter cried because they knew their offensive stats would nose dive. Yet it was the Big Red Machine that was the dominant team in the NL during the ‘70s. What type of team were they? They had a good to outstanding hitter at every position, a solid bullpen and a decent starting staff. Sounds like the 2006 Mets, doesn’t it?
Typical Mets move — getting second rate players.
If Santana gets 150/7, you have to think of the yearly value this way:
25
25
25
25
20
20
10
Here are some interesting possibilities:
A. Santana for Milledge, Heilman, Gomez, Gotay and Pelfrey. Sign Kosuke Fukudome, Carlos Silva, Eric Hinske and Miguel Cairo.
B. Bedard for Milledge, Heilman, Gomez, Gotay and Pelfrey. Sign Kosuke Fukudome, Livan Hernandez, Eric Hinske and Miguel Cairo.
C. Blanton for Milledge, Heilman and Mulvey. Sign Kosuke Fukudome.
D. Haren for Milledge, Heilman, Pelfrey and Gotay. Sign Kosuke Fukudome, Ron Mahay, Carlos Silva and Chris Woodward.
E. Garza for Gomez and Gotay. Sign Miguel Cairo.
Comments?
any takers on a A.J. Burnett deal?
Burnett and Overbay for Delgado, Gotay, Humber and Gomez
Burnett’s a 31yo (in January) who has yet to pitch more than 3 games over .500 and has injury issues.
Anyone taking Delgado at this point?
thats why its a proposal.. do you ever make any or just shoot down everything you see?
Burnett and Overbay dont want to be in Toronto – Delgado does and he is revered there . Id take a chance on AJ finally putting it together under Peterson on a winning team and signing a 5 yr extension when he opts out next year
whats your suggestion? Santana aint happening. give up the pipe dream.
Hmmm possibility of a Santana trade vs. possibility of an AJ Burnett trade. Yup, let’s discuss the latter since there’s a better chance of that happening.
Id do C or D & E — D is a bit rich.. leave Gotay out cause be goes in E and put AHern in there.
A- about the right price but u forgot to include sign him for 7/150
B – Bedard wont cost millz and Gomez (maybe either or)
Some of the worst trades I have read on here period…Im not giving up more then 2 prospects for any pitcher unless it is Santana.
I only like E. All your other options have us signing Silva and he is horrible and would be overpaid. Garza is our best option and until Omar realizes that we are screwed.
Don’t say Silva is horrible. He’s pretty good. And it’s not like we’re giving a crap guy A-rod money, and starting him fourth. I just want him to fill the 5th spot to get some innings and move El Duque to the long man position, so we could afford to trade Heilman.
I’m sorry, any trade for Johan must be done only if he signs with the team. I don’t care, I don’t want a rent a player. It would burn me up if the Mets gave up a Miledge, Heilman and Gomez (or whatever combo) to have him be signed away at the end of the season by another team (doubly so if it was the Yanks).
Its really sad to read some of these comments and proposed trades on this board. I couldnt stop laughing at the guy who said he sees Milledge develop into JUST a Sheffield type bat.
Miledge will come nowhere near Sheffield my friend.
Milledge is a nice useful player and will be a solid major leaguer but he will not be a star.
I def would be interested in a Burnett/Overbay deal especially if the Jays are willing to take back Delgado.
Something like Gomez, Delgado, and Humber along with another b level piece. Id make that deal in a heartbeat.
But I doubt the Jays would be willing to do that unless they are completely fed up with AJ.
It seems that the Mets and As are gonna make a deal. They have 3 starters that intrigue the Mets and we have a few players that intrigue the As.
I would shoot for Haren or a Blanton and Harden combo otherwise I just see the Mets getting Blanton.
I would overpay for a Harden/Blanton package.
Unless the Mets get Johan, Bedard and Ill even throw in Haren…they still wouldnt be getting a dominant ace if they bring in some1 else. The Mets need a bonafide ace. The Kazmir trade really set the Mets back. What a joke.
Do you see Milledge regressing to be an average player just because he is a MET prospect or is it something you see in watching him?
From all accounts he has the following skills…..
1) Very Quick Bat
2) Developing Power
3) Speed and Aggressiveness in the field
4) Good body type
5) Very Good Arm
Where he is weak is where one would expect a guy to be weak who has not had a ton of ML experience…
1) patience
2) pitch recognition
3) Base running is avg at best even with the very good speed.
I think given his 2 brief stints taken and pro rated out to a years worth of playing (150 games)
You should expect a line like this…………
.275 BA, .340 ObP, 23hrs, 90 rbi 30 doubles 15 stolen bases
That is not bad as a starting point for a player who will be 23 next season
Quick bat, yes. Developing power — jury’s out. Frame is a bit small. He does have potential to be a good defender. I think that stat line is pretty optimistic for this next season, if that’s what you’re predicting — the RBIs, anyway. I’d predict .260, 23 HR, 75 RBI, .310 OBP.
Milledge has potential but imo he will not be a star. He has been in the league for 2 years now and I still dont see him making any adjustments. When I saw Wright come up I always saw him making adjustments. That alone is a sign that he will not be a star. The stars know how to adjust. All big time established hitters are always adjusting.
Also, Milledge has shown no power. It could develop but I dont see it. I see his ceiling as about 20 homers. Which isnt terrible. Like I said he will be a useful everyday player but not a star.
Every time I see him hit a ball its never square. Everything seems off the end of the bat type hits. His defense is ok. He will NEVER be Sheffield type. He has the quick bat but thats just about it. He doesnt show anything else. Its still early but to think he will be a Major League star is unfair and not logical.
Firts impressions of Gomez are basically the same thing. I dont care how fast he is. He doesnt look like he has a good approach and doesnt look like Jose Reyes looked when he was coming up. I am glad teams think highly of Gomez. Trade him now when he has value. He is young though so I am not saying he is a bust.
The thing is the Mets are an in between team. There core is young but the team is old. They are a few pieces away(ace+bullpen help) away from being a legit contender year in and year out.
They have 3 OF prospects in FMArt, Millz, and Gomez along with 4 SP prospects in Pelfrey, Humber, Guerra, and Mulvey.
Why not deal away 2 of the 3 OF players along with some of those SP for what we need? The only player I would be ok with holding up a deal for is Fmart.
As for the SP. I still think pelfrey will turn out. I have in no way given up on him. HUmber is a joke and I hope they deal him. He has a nice curve ball thats about it. Guerra is moving up in the system and is a sleeper. Mulvey has some value because he had a good year. I have seen him and he doesnt look great either. #4 at best.
a 4 player combo of those players should be able to land Johan if the Yankees, Dodgers and Sox best offers are off the table.
In comparison with the Yanks….
Joba
Hughes
Pelfrey
Kennedy
Guerra
Mulvey
Humber
Thats how I would rank them. Imo, Kennedy is going to be at best a #3 starter. From that standpoint he gets overated because he gets talked about in the same sentence as hughes and joba. I love when I hear Kennedy and Melky for Cabrera or Johan. GEt lost.
The Mets have the edge over the Yanks in terms of hitting prospects.
It comes down to whos in the race for Johan. Mets only have a shot if the other teams dont part with there best packages. Mets will overpay and should for Johan as long as they sign him before its a done deal.
You are getting the best pitcher in baseball
Forget about prospects.
Wright, Reyes,Beltran,Johan , Maine, and Olly is your core for the next decade.
Plus the Mets still would have 1 of the 3 OF prospects leftover and some of the SP.
The Mets also have a handful of prospects that are in the lower levels of the minors that some scouts are high on.
Lets get real here. this isnt Kazmir for V Zambrano. This is some of your top prospects for the best pitcher in the game…in his prime…with great mechanics…..switching to the NL……
Its a healthy debate. I am not enamored with Gomez as I see him as a leadoff type hitter. But Milledge I see differently. First he needs to play as you only really develop as a MLr against ML pitching. He was somewhat slow to make adjustments on pitching him away. But he became much better at it as the year progressed with him. By the end of the year, he was laying off the pitches that were away. He was looking to hit his pitch. I seem to recall an example in the last week of the season where he belted 2hrs in the same game by taking that exact approach. I do not recall the counts off hand but I do recall him waiting out a few pitches in each at bat til he got what he felt he could drive.
Now Milledge may not make it to be a star. But it is just not right to discount the possibility that he can be one.
Also, Comparisons to David Wright and his batting adjustments are just not fair to anyone. DW has become an MVP candidate in his 3rd year. His approach at the plate is special. It is what makes him so great.
For all the praise we have given Reyes and his quick development…..I seem to remember him being called a bust until midpoint of last year when he seemed to get it. Then he had a terrific start or 1st half of this year to reinforce it and we all thought he would be on his way to the hall of fame. Right now, I am not sure he is going to even be an perennial all star. He has the tools but he seemed to regress enough at the conclusion of this past season that we have to really look at next year as a very important one for him. If he gives a mediocre year with the bat in 2008…I think it is fair to say he may only be pretty good for his career and not all world
I’d take Guerra over Kennedy.
Each one of his good starts seemed very fluky.
I still think Guerra has way more stuff than Kennedy.
For all of the Yankees’ youngsters, injury is an issue. All of them have had some pretty big injuries in their pro career.
I think you have to at least consider picking up a chunk of Beltran’s contract and dealing him. If the Twins want a CF, who better than Beltran? We could go out and get Rowand, who has a ton more heart, and then use our prospects to get Haren/Bedard/Ramon Hernandez. We could even get Miguel Cabrera and put his lazy self in LF and move Alou to Right.
Millz cannot hit a slider away to save his life!!! Please trade him in a package of 3 prospects and get an ace pitcher!!
david wright has trouble with a slider away too .. you want to get rid of him??
this is precisely why I cant see the Yanks not getting into the Santana derby. Do we really think they will go into ST with three rookies in the rotation? with Andy P on the fence? I think its just posturing. pure posturing. when they are laying out 150 mil plus for a 25 man roster they are NOT going to rely on Joba, Hughes and Kennedy to hold down the starting pitching.
The Bo Sox will get in just because the yanks are in and they can give up young pitching and top prospects.. the Angels or Dodgers can play of they dont get Miguel C.
The Mets dont stand a chance in the Santana race and they’ll be better off if they focus on landing two young controllable starters who wont be asking for 7 year 150 mil contracts in the next 12 months.
kazmir and garza
You know, DWright, in his rookie year, walked only 14 times in 260 major league at bats. That’s slightly more that 1 walk per 20 plate appearances, and he’s now coming off a year where he has walked close to 100 times. The key to his development has been his eye at the plate. He’s a similar power-hitter to what he always was.
This is still not Millz’ full rookie season, and he has already displayed more patience at the plate than Wright did in his opening tour, with 1 walk per 15 plate appearances.
I don’t understand where those who are selling Milledge short are coming from. The woodwork perhaps? Millz has done nothing in his entire career that would indicate that he’d be anything less than very good and might be outstanding.
I agree. and my theory here is….
They don’t like him because he is black.
Not nice guy corporate black but somewhat hoodish looking. I think this fanbase takes its cues from the beat writers. and I think the stupid beat writers look at Milledge and don’t know how to approach him. He is into his rap label, wear his hair in cornrows, seems confident or “cocky” as they see it, not contrite, etc, etc.
I realize I am probably gonna get slammed on this but I believe it. I am not black by the way, not that it matters, I am a local white guy working too hard for a living and jewish. I just call it here as I see it.
I think Milledge gets a bad reputation not due to what he does on the field or how hard he works at his game….i think he gets it because he does not kiss the fannies of the beat writers or aged vets on the team.
Leave Milledge alone and support him. He has the potential to be the 3rd special developed talent that has come through our system in the past decade if we just let him develop and stop bashing his style
Not to mention that Millz got those walks while batting 8th in the order most of the time thanks to the exploits of our mismanager.
I think you need to take a stiff drink and relax if you think Met fans dislike Milledge because he is black. That’s hogwash. First, I don’t think people proposing that he be traded or seeing limitations “don’t like” him at all. They just have different predictions for his eventual ceiling, and would like nothing more than to see him become an all-star with the Mets, whether that proves them right or wrong. Second, like it or not, he has done some things that irked his teammates and opponents. The beat writers didn’t make that stuff up, and his actions are not typical fare for young players. There’s a fine line between cocky and insolent. Think Danny Garcia. Finally, the root cause of pessimism about Milledge is experience — he doesn’t seem to do any one thing spectacularly, and in the Mets’ recent history, any number of outfield prospects with similar resumes have fizzled, whether due to injury (Escobar) or simply insufficient talent (Ochoa.)
I really would recommend that you stop looking under rocks for “racism.” There’s real racism out there, and it needs to be combated. That said, however, the racial tensions in our country aren’t helped when absolutely any criticism — heck, it’s not even criticism, really — of an African American athlete is attributed to racism. That smacks of paranoia.
I can’t say its racism, but to say that race plays NO factor is naive…
For example, the fact that he is into rap music…
So what ?!!?
Bernie WIlliams had a jazz album…did anyone have a problem with it?
Bronson Arroyo plays rock..as do a bunch of players..
do I smell a double-standard?
hmmmm
Lastings is gonna have to come to grips that as long as he represents the same tastes and interests as the inner city youth, 50 year old white dudes who have little in common with him will look down on him and find something bad to right about as much as they can…So, basically, Lastings can look at Manny Ramirez…the only reason Manny gets away with being Manny is because he hits…and in the clutch…consistently…otherwise he would’ve been out of the league along time ago…
My biggest fear is that with everyone constantly knocking him, is that he develops the same chip in the shoulder attitude that has affected Sheff…
People really need to lay off him…he is no where near as much of a knucklehead as people make him out to be…
Well, I don’t doubt that there are some fans out there who make certain assumptions about his character because of his appearance, and that’s narrow-minded. But to suggest that some sort of racism fuels anything short of unbridled enthusiasm in his potential is going a little far, and that’s where the posters above seemed to be going.
And, in fairness, Milledge didn’t get into any hot water for being on a rap album, per se — it was the lyrics of one song. Bernie Williams had no such lyrics, nor did Arroyo. Darryl Strawberry cut a rap album in the ’80s (with UTFO, no less), and no one cared about it. And, no one really cares about Milledge’s album, either. I only see it brought up by people defending him — really.
Well the lyrical content is a whole ‘nother issue ( see Don Imus )
I just think in general, once the media gets on ur case…its very hard for them to get off it…stories sell and Milledge saving some kids from a burning school will get 30 seconds of airtime one day of the year…but guarenteed if he says n*ggers or b*tches in a rap song, it will be played over and over for years…
It’s a reality, he is gonna have to get used to…this is baseball…I think he IS adjusting to it though…I can relate to Milledge in some ways…being a minority in corporate American is an experience that only a minority can relate to…
So when Milledge is getting hazed by Wagner and the media…It did kinda get to me…I give Franco props for sticking up for him…
THEN AGAIN, when I see Cliffy giving him the business for not carrying his bags on the road…and going public with it…and then I see Alou jumping in front of him to catch a fly ball…it bothers me a lil more that veterans are still kinda messing with him
he doesn’t defer to authorities…he doesn’t give extra respect to veterans and he kinda feels that everyone is on the same level…why should he carry Cliffy’s bags…?
the only cure is for him to shine extra…he is going to HAVE to bat over .300..play good defense…smart baserunning…consistently for a couple of years to win the crowd…
Its stupid to ignore what is right in front of you. It is clearly racism. Not fan based but beat writer and vet based. Those guys shape our opinion or at least some of our opinions on Milledge.
Think of the things that have been reported as problems regarding milledge:
1) Slapping fans with hi 5’s after hitting his 1st hr which also tied the game (reported that it upset the competition that day and hence upset some of our met vets who saw Milledge as trying to upstage the other team)….Total BS
2) Rap album producer. Not the content writer or singer mind you…but because he is trying to help out some his own from his past by sponsoring an album that has some questionable lyrics…bitches ho’s, etc, he gets labeled as making another mistake……Also BS in my opinion
3) Too frequently dances on the top step to upstage the competition. To this I will agree but his dancing on the top step is no different than David Wright or Jose Reyes or Delgado or even Beltran. YEt only Milledge gets the cold shoulder for this behaviour.
4) Won’t allow himself to get hazed by vets hence upsetting them. I say good for him. There is no place for that in todays society.
5) Wears cornrows. Does not look like a corporate black guy. Looks like he is a bit of a hood. So what….he is the same guy regardless of what clothes he chooses to wear or how he wears his hair. Freakin Beat writers here are afraid of him frankly and it comes out in their writing. They are the punks who shape the opinion of him and they are making him look bad either consciously or subconsciously in their writing.
Bottom line is racism is definitely a part of this and you are naive or just plain ignorant if you do not see it
I’m afraid gowrightgo has a point. Mike and the Dog for instance, have never seemed all that complimentary or concerned with anything Afro-American. They seem to have a tendency to slam any black person with attitude f any kind, though this is only an impression. I’ve got no hard evidence right now.
Castro was accused of rape also (the serious kind). I believe charges were dropped. When you’re a high-profile individual, you become a target. I didn’t hear of anybody paying anyone off to shut up his accuser. It’s quite possible that the charges had no merit.
I think Milz is from Florida. In NY, the age of consent is (I believe) 16. I don’t know what it is in Florida.
No way man, Kazmir deal was the best in history. haha
It was me who said Milledge can develop into a Sheffield type hitter. Why is that a joke? He is still very young and has all the tools. What facts do you have that say he wont be that type of player? I dont have any that say he will except that watching him he has a similar swing and body type. He is still maturing and I think has a huge ceiling. I was down on him too a few years ago but watching him play this season I see all the tools are there. Try to refrain from calling peoples ideas a joke. We are all Met fans on here trying to think of the best way to help this team win. No need for the attitude with fellow fans.
Seriously, no ‘tude needed among us Mets fans.
But I’ll give you the primary reason why Milledge will never be Sheffield:
The steroid investigation.
Lyle Overbay is a dreadful hitter. AJ Burnett is way too injury prone. In an 8 year career, he’s logged over 180 innings just twice. Both are dreadful, and I wouldn’t give up a valuable trading piece like Gomez for either of them.
Delgado > Overbay.
How about Haren and Landon Powell for Millegde Heilman and Humber
Ladon Powell is a AA Catcher for the A’s and he hit .292 with 14 hrs…the year before he hit .264 with 16 hrs so we could see maybe another power hitting catcher
Because Humber is a bum with no value.
Haren is expected to receive 4 youngsters in return.
Pelfrey, Heilman, Milledge and Gotay/Humber is the best package I can think of.
I’d give Heilman and Milledge for Blanton, worst case scenario I’d give Humber or Gotay as well.
I think he wants 7yr/$126M. I’ve heard he wants at least a 6 year extension. He probably wants an extra year to stay in Minnesota while he may just take 6 years to play in a bigger market team.
Twins offered $80mm over 4 years.
all the pres reports say the offer was 5/93 ..
4/80 never happened.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_heyman/11/23/santana.update/index.html
so with his 13 for 2008 its 5/93? thats a worse offer by far.. and sets him up for 20+ on the market.
no thanks. not 20 plus mil for one 30 year old pitcher.
Actually 2008 is not an offer, it’s a signed contract. So 4/80 did happen. Good try though.
what Im trying to do is reconcile the deals from the two sources..
Minny newpaper said 5/93 and Heyman says 4/80 extension..
either deal wont get it done.. just like the mets prospective deals cant match up with the Angels, dodgers, red sox or yanks prospective deals.
and either way it looks like santana wants 7 years at 20+ per which is a long term albatross and wont make the mets any better.
I honestly think in a business sense, trading for Santana makes almost zero sense. I understand he’s the best pitcher out there, but when it comes right down to it, he alone isn’t going to win anything.
Building a team around the super talents, IS what makes sense both in the business aspect AND the hunt for a championship.
If you can trade the same pieces, and aquire D-train AND Garza, or similar type trades, that improves rotation more than the aquiring the one “Ace”.
If Santana is available, next offseason, then you go after him, but to trade all your prospects (even if they’re only prospects) just doesn’t make any sense.
So many of the posters above are so affraid of over rating the Mets prospects, that they’re severly under rating the propects.
Milledge has shown he CAN hit, and he’s still got potential. Gomez has potential, and could quite literally develop into a amazing lead off hitter and defensive player. Pelfrey has shown he needs more experience but has also shown at times, that he has the POTENTIAL to dominate innings as a ground ball pitcher.
I honestly don’t understand many of the above trades. I certainly don’t think the ideas should stop coming in, other wise what would be the point of the site?, but can someone please try to look at the WHOLE trade, and whether or not it actually makes this team BETTER, or if it just aquires the big name so we can steal some attention from the Yankees.
How good of a pitcher can we get for Gomez ,Humber, Guerva, Mulvey,and Gotay?? Any opinions??
Two potential back of the rotation pitchers, a decent hitting young second baseman, a fast guy and a pitching prospect that’s miles away… Value equivalent of Milledge, Heilman and Gotay.
A shot at Joe Blanton, maybe.
T
This just in:
According to the Star Tribune’s Joe Christensen, the five-year, $93 million contract the Twins offered to Johan Santana would have replaced his existing deal.
That’s where the confusion was. Santana is due to make $13.25 million next season in the final year of his contract. The Twins’ proposal would have signed him through 2012, essentially resulting in a four-year, $80 million extension. Christensen reports that Santana wants a six-year extension, and since the Twins aren’t willing to go that far, both sides have agreed that trade offers will be considered. Nov. 23 – 3:23 pm et
id be surprised if the yankees dont come onto the scene and overpay in prospects and money.
there’s a big difference between a 4/80 extension and a 5/93 extension.
the twins and santana are so far apart id be shocked if he’s still on the team by Dec 1.
A> the mets don’t have the pieces to get him
B> other teams have the pieces and resources to over pay
C> paying 20+ mil for 7 plus years to a 30 YO pitcher is playing Russian roulette with your franchise. I dont care if its Sandy Koufax –OH WAIT .. there’s another example of a pitcher who excelled after his 30th Bday.
At this point the Yankees really have to go for Johan. He’s the best pitcher available — seemingly the only one worthy of their extraordinary prospects — and they desperately need a a big arm for this year.
I don’t see the Dodgers suiting Santana, but I wouldn’t rule it out. I think they’ll hike up Santana’s price. It’s safe to say that they’ll try to get a lesser price on Bedard or send a healthy package to the Marlins for Miguel Cabrera.
I have no doubt that the Mets will make their move for a big pitcher, and I think it’ll either be Bedard or Haren, considering Omar said he’s going for a big pitcher.
As for the whole Andruw Jones thing, I think that the chances of the two sides agreeing on a contract and position for him are little to none. I’d speculate that if the Mets get Bedard, they’ll send Gomez to the O’s and keep Milledge. Gomez seems to have more value. In a deal for Haren, they’ll send over Milledge and start Gomez, as Minaya previously indicated.
Mets should sign Andruw to a one year deal…let him prove himself…then in 2009, we can let Milledge grab up up a corner OF spot…I have a feeling Gomez is gonna go in a deal….to be honest I wouldn’t mind…as much as I like his speed…the Mets dont seem to have enough vets that take charge….they almost all (except for Paulie Dukes) seemed too relax…not sure if thats a reflection on the manager…but I miss Cliffy’s leadership out there…
its funny how Cliffy and Paulie were both critical of Willie’s managerial style and both got shipped out ASAP…
hmmmm
two guys that should be untouchable are milledge and pelfrey. I havent seen F-mart but overall i think gomez will be the best out of all of them in the long run. But as of now milledge can give us what we need. I love speed and i also love pitching and that is what omar says are what he would like the mets reputation to be. I like to compare players and as of now milledge is the next garry sheffield and pelfrey is the next brandon webb. U can conect the two but humber doesnt show much promise to me. I would rather have willis and garza rather than over paying a rental in santatna. If we were to trade 3 major future all star prospects,lets just say they each have 5 years of all-star great years in thier prime. Combine that 15 years of prime all-star great years for one year of an allstar prime year from santana? And to add to this mess he only pitches once every five day and hes not a garantee to stay heathly. We cant give up our ourfield prospects for a rental. Even if he is santana. If ur going for an ace going for the real ace(by the way hes younger) PEAVY!
In one sense I agree. You can not do the deal for a pitcher and blow up the farm unless the pitcher coming back is controlled for at least 3 years (and the price of that control should be a factor). Meaning…I’d think it would be more valuable to take back Cole Hamels right now (assuming his deal is like 3 more years at less than $4M per) than trading for Dontrell in his last year and getting 12 M or doing a sign an trade for Santanta when he gets 7 yrs at 20 M per.
All things being equal, I’d rather pay more in prospects for a younger developing ace who is under a teams control for say 3 more years (see John Maine) at a good price than for a Santana.
Not saying I would not want Santana or would even prefer him to Maine every 5th day…I would not obviously. But in terms of what it would be worth to give up, it makes more sense to provide the most talent in a trade not just for the best talent coming back but you have to consider its cost in $$ and years and you have to consider control of the player in the equation.
For that reason…I do not think we see deals for Santana, Peavy, Webb, Oswalt, Bedard this offseason
How about Haren and Landon Powell for Millegde Heilman and Humber
Ladon Powell is a AA Catcher for the A’s and he hit .292 with 14 hrs…the year before he hit .264 with 16 hrs so we could see maybe another power hitting catcher
Because the package you are offering them will get you Joe Blanton straight up.
Let’s just hope, whether the move[s] be deemed smart or stupid, and the result be brilliant or lucky, the Mets get/hold on to players that help us win some championships.
sny just made me mad lol! they were like “coming up on sportsnite JOHAN SANTANA WHATS GOIN ON WITH A POSSIBLE TRADE”
jon heyman was saying on the fan it’d take pelfrey, heilman, and 2 OF prospects 2 get santana he also said the bosox were the favorites
that would give them 7 starting pitchers
maybe we should start talkin’ to the Sox
Actually only six. Buchholz isn’t a major leaguer, and they could easily deal off Lester in a deal for Santana.
But what the Sox have to offer I have no clue.
Id do that deal for Kazmir maybe because he will be controlled and cheap for the next 3 years. Too bad they don’t need anymore outfield prospects
the point is we need a great started and i would do anything to get Santana even if it means trading most of the prospects…we need it…and if we part ways with Milledge…so be it! well find another right fielder…for GOD sake we had Shawn Green in right field…we gotta do what we gotta do! PLEASE OMAR! DO SOMETHING FOR US!
is that Omar at Shea today workin’
or is he still in the DR drinkin’ rum and Red Stripes
Looks like Cordero to the Reds
46 M
Outlandish!
WOW, Cordero to Reds, check out the $$$
http://www.mlbfleecefactor.com
According Heyman in Wfan, he feels that Santana will be trade during the Winter Meetings, and he lists top three possibile landing stops
1. Boston
2. NY Yankees
3. Dodgers
Although he gives Mets a shot but they might to over pay him starting with perlf, Heilman or Humber, Gomez, F-Mart or Milledge.
I want Santana, but right now it seems those three teams above have more talents and chips to trade. Btw, it seems that Yankees have made Joba untouchable for now.
Omar please get Santana if possibe or other ace.
Considering the real cost to getting Santana…I might prefer to be left holding the candle and take one of the other aces off the market. cost for Bedard or Kazmir would likely be less and better long term for us than Santana.
Let the YAnks and Sox fight for him. Dodgers are the lead candidates for Cabrera. They are saving the chips for a bat not another pitcher.
When the dust settles, Orioles are not trading in the division their best pitcher….We get Bedard come the conclusion of the winter meetings and Yanks get Santana for Hughes Kennedy and Cano
I second that emotion
I think a deal for Garza/Cain/Bedard/Lincecum will be better in the long run…
I have a feeling whoever signs Santana is gonna have to deal with the fact that he is gonna test the free agent market no matter what…he is the best pitcher to hit the free agent market in a looooooong time…
The Mets can look long term…
deal for a young starter and this year their rotation looks like:
1) Pedro
2) Maine
3) Perez
4) (Young Starter)
5) Pelfrey/Humber/Duque/Mulvey,etc
2009 can be
1) Santana
2) Maine
3) Perez
4) (Young Starter)
5) Pelfrey/Humber/Duque/Mulvey/Pedro if he re-signs
The Yanks and Red Soxs are both reluctant to trade their prospects. Dodgers are going after Miguel Cabrera. The bottom line is the Mets have a legit shot at getting Johan, and don’t let Jon Heyman tell you otherwise. We have the premium talent to get something done.
WHAT MAKES ANYONE OUT THERE THINK BEDARD,KAZMIR,
LINCECUM,CAIN OR GARZA WILL BE TRADED???
What ? All those teams have too much pitching ?
If there’s ANY chance that Omar can get Santana, YOU DO IT!
The only untouchable would be Reyes. And b/t/w thats a Fatso &
Fruitloops created rumor. NO CHANCE Omar trades Jose anyway! BUT AND HOWEVER, if the twinkies want a bunch of
young cheap players you package EVERYTHING for Santana!
He IS the best pitcher in baseball and just entering his prime
plus would only be better in the NL and out of the homerdome.
Remember a similar situation 20 yrs ago w/ Viola, we gave up
a ton for him yet what seemed like maybe overpaying at the time
really turn out to not be.
I’ve seen F.Martinez in person on several occasions AND while
real young doesn’t strike you as anything special. Mulvey reminds alot of Bobby Jones or Kevin Tapani so what a 4th
starter?–Both Pelphrey AND Humber are prime indicators of
Omar the greats reign so far. High #1s who don’t appear special while plenty other picks f/ other teams are already contributing
and show more promise. What is Millage exactly?? Hes no
base-stealer, hes got a quick bat but will he be a .300 hitter or
30 Hr guy AND hes no Andruw Jones in the OF. On top of all-
that there are character issues w/ this kid going back to when he was 16. What will he be once he really gets paid??
Since Gomez is not goin’ anywhere ( see the dominican connection) IF it took all 5 Millage,Martinez,mulvey,Humber&
pelphrey to get Santana EVEN w/o a contract beyond ‘08 AGAIN,
YOU DO IT!!!
Finally someone with a brain. Oh yea, I forgot about the Milledge-statutory rape thing. Yup, it’s the media.
Kidderek. YOu guys are total fools. YOu know what statutory rape actually is?? By the way he was not convicted of it. Charges were eventually dropped.
Statutory rape is essentially some form of sex with a minor by someone not considered a minor. Hence, anyone under the age of 17 having somekind of sex with someone over 17 makes it a case.
Thats right….a senior in high school hence can not get a blow job from a junior in high school without breaking this law. Pretty dumb
He IS the best pitcher in baseball and just entering his prime
plus would only be better in the NL and out of the homerdome.
He is turning 29 years old.. thats not Just entering his prime.. id think his prime seasons are 25 – 29 — which is proved out by his Cy Youngs. He WAS the best pitcher in baseball 2 years ago.. today that would be CC Sabathia or Josh Beckett. Santana is maybe top 5 TODAY.
Remember a similar situation 20 yrs ago w/ Viola, we gave up a ton for him yet what seemed like maybe overpaying at the time really turn out to not be
really? what did Viola add other than one 20 win season? we sucked after 1989 and the Twins (who got the “Ton” in return) won the World Series in 1991. And Sweet Music left us for Boston and got Tommy John Surgery. His “prime” season was when he was 28 and won 24 games and the Cy Young.
He was washed up at 32.
Tapani turned into a consistent innings eater and Augilera was the best closer in the league and an all star from 1991 – 1993.
history is history.
I think that you can look back at most trades where young players are dealt and a good portion of them do not work out. ( for get Kazmier bad…)That being said I can not condone trading our hole minor league sytem for one player but when someone like Santana is available you have to look hard. Players like Gomez and Mulvey are a dime a dozen. Look at other teams minor league studs and compare them to Gomez, Mulvey, Fernandez , Pelfrey, Humber and you will see that these players are nothing special. We get hooked on these names that the Mets upper manegment does a great job building up. I know that if Omar works out a deal it will include time to speak to Santana.
Spend as little as you can but you have to get a #1 guy.
Santana/Haren and Burnett in that order for me.
Baseball is flushed with cash so a 7 year deal for 150 million can be justified. for Santana.
Not just the rape thing fellow-fan but all-kind of trouble in H.S.
going to class,disciplie probs etc.. Then theres the whole L-Millz
wanna be a rap star jive!! AND again, he hasn’t got hit w/ the fat paychecks yet! Does anyone remember Carl Everett?? He was
a serious BIG TIME TALENT, hows that worked out??
b/t/w although hes not Santana, I think if Haren really is available
you give the A’s what they want and bring him here!! This is an elite Pitcher/ a #1.
Lastly, sorry–but STAY AWAY f/ Burnett!!!—That ship sailed &
while on talent and age it was questionable at the time, the
trade for Ally-Boy Leiter could not have worked out better!
THIS KID CAN’T STAY HEALTHY!!!
Seriously, where have you been? Can’t agree more.
I’m just a bit hesitant on Haren b/c the A’s want to dump him so quickly after one good year.
where did you hear all those other things about milledge?
let me guess: you spoke to someone who was real close to the situation right?
stop making stuff, and put your white hood away.
Yeah, u outed me the love child of archie bunker and
david duke. and, hey nit-wit read a newspaper!!
b/t/w my 2 all-time favorite Mets are Doc and Straw plus
I spent ALOT of time screaming about us trading Kevi
Mitchell+++for a dog in Mcreynolds!
So, smarten-up!!!
Doc and straw were good house n-ggers right? Played the corporate role of clean guys up until both ended up in jail and on drugs or both.
I loved em both but frankly, they should have been reviled and Milledge has nothing but a clean slate. Statutory rape is a joke. It is not raping in the sense of what guys do 20 yr for. It is having sex with a minor when you are an adult. Not forced sex.
Who cares if you liked a couple of black guys on the 86 team. 20 yrs later….you sound like you are pushing to remove Milledge just because of some crap read in the paper about how he upstages this guy, wont be hazed by vets, slaps hi fives in between innings after hitting his first hr and upsets the competition, stories of stat rape in his long ago past, Rap album, corn rows, etc. Just let the kid be and develop. you can not like him because he can’t hit a slider yet but not because he is all of the other stuff above bc all of that is opinion shaping by media guys who dont like him bc he is black or at least bc he wont take sht from them
Nice to see you and Kidderek are trolling around with your white hoods on. Glad you found each other. HAve fun bashing the black guys “tude”
b/t/w the only local guys who long for the mets to fail more the heyman for years are mr. knowitall and muttknownothing on wfan. no coinscience that hes on their show now.
I don’t think the fat guy and the puppy are anymore incorrect than other characters on the fan, but they do it with such arrogance that just makes them so detestable.
Anyway, yea they’re the biggest Mets haters.
Agree-agree but Beane does think hes smarter than everyone else thanks to the genius-moneyball tag. and last i checked
no championship parades during his run as mr. baseball in oaktown.
If long standing rumors of his lov for Millage and Heillmann are
true then by all means send them and if needed humber or pelphrey. cause i’m championship starved having had one in my
35yrs livin’ and dyin’ w/ this club!
Worse though is the mutt cause he really is less knowledgable
then most fans and while u can understand his hating the
anskyees , why us??–something wrong w/ a new yorker who
hates all n.y. teams!
simple, he does what his master (the fatman) does.
I mean look at dude who said this:
“Then theres the whole L-Millz
wanna be a rap star jive!! AND again, he hasn’t got hit w/ the fat paychecks yet! Does anyone remember Carl Everett?? He was
a serious BIG TIME TALENT, hows that worked out?”
Hmmm…out of all the people who came through the Mets and fizzled…dude had to bring up Carl Everett…
Not Craig Brazell….not Gregg Jefferies…not Rey Ordonez….Not Benny Aygbayani…..Matt Franco
he brings up a guy that was traded here and played like 2 years…
the fact that he’s black was just a coincidence, right?
( wink wink )
the fact that he got into some controversy and he is black, makes him and Lastings Siamese twins…
lol
then people wonder why blacks in america have strayed away from baseball…
o and as for everett…
After being traded to the Mets, he had his first full season in 1997 with 443 at bats. He hit .248 that season, with a .420 slugging percentage.
He had his best seasons with the Houston Astros, hitting .325 with 27 stolen bases in 1999. That year, his .571 slugging percentage was in the top 10 in the league.
If we get .325 and 27 SB’s from L-Millz (lol), I will gladly take it…
face it, when was the last time a black baseball player really shined for at least 2 years here on the Mets…
Cliffy? nope…he had 1 good year…
Lance Johnson? nope…he lasted one year here…1996
Bernard Gilkey…nope he had one good year..
Derek Bell? lol
We have to go back to Doc and Darryl…
how sad is that…?
Actually L-Millz is his self appointed rap name. Good try though.
The comparison to Carl Everett? It’s because they both have criminal records. Race happens to be a coincidence, in this case, but glad that was your first response.
As far as I can recall Craig Brazell, Gregg Jefferies, Rey Ordonez, Benny Aygbayani and Matt Franco didn’t have criminal records. Good try though.
As for the lack of black ball players? If I remember correctly there has been a sharp decrease in percentage of black baseball players. 60 Minutes did a special on it during the Jackie Robinson anniversary.
I’m not saying race is not playing a part here, it’s just not the primary reason.
Carl Everett was not a Met prospect either…he was drafted by the Yankees, came up the Marlins system, debuted with the Marlins, then came here, played one year where the ONLY incident that occured was him hitting .243 and beating his kids…he had A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT experience here….
And exactly what crime was Carl Everett convicted of?
In case you don’t know, just because you are charged with something, doesn’t mean you have A CRIMINAL RECORD..
cuz if thats the case, you can compare him to:
David Cone = Rape
Shane Spencer = Assault and Battery ( convicted )
Roger Cedeno = Driving under the influence ( convicted )
Ron Darling = Resisting arrest ( convicted )
Tim Teufel = Resisting arrest ( convicted )
but of course Carl Everett’s wife being accused of excessive corporal punishment ( with the charges later dropped )
just automatically reminded u of Milledge…
The only reason Carl was even involved is because he was Married to her and the law states that the husband must intervene…even if the “abuse” occured while he was on the road playing baseball…
sounds just like Milledge having sex in high school with a girl 2 years younger than him, giving high fives to fans and singing rap songs….riiiiiight….
riiiiight…
I’m surprised Milledge doest get called L-Kelly…
Hey Matlock, calm down baby! where’s the love??
At this point, I can see, your just lost !
No ones making Millage out to be Nicky Barnes!
Just talkin’ baseball !—Guys like you make me
shake my head.—I hope I’m wrong and if the kid
isn’t traded he stays health, starts everyday, hits.300
30hrs and catches everything hit his way.
But having seen guys like Jim Rice, Andre Dawson,
willie mcgee and joe carter break in and play long
careers, He don’t remind me of them.
jim rice was ROY and 3rd in MVP vote his rookie year….not too many players remind me of him…
andre dawson was ROY with the expos
joe carter was runner up for MVP i believe in his 2nd year…
willie mcghee was MVP in his 3rd year…
these guys came in like gangbusters…
Milledge doesnt even have 350 AB’s…combined for 2 years…
GIVE THE KID TIME before we call it quits on him…
Point is, yes the came in like gang busters and u
could see all these guys were gonna be stars!
My point is, I’m not sure about this kid.
But I’m not “giving-up” on him if, his value is such
that he could bring bach or help to bring back a
Santana or Haren. I’m not talkin’ Russ Ortiz or Kip Wells.
Lastly, thanks for the history lesson but I’ve been
following this team and this game year round for
35years. Having seen Major and Minor league games
all over this country so really you’d have a hard time
schoolin’ this fan.
Hey smart guy, you have no clue as to what I’m talkin’ about
because your first reaction is to become defensive in anything
which may in any way be seen as having to do w/ race!
you dont know me, my background or obviously what i’m talkin
about here! YOUR the one blinded by race!
MY 5 all-time fav Mets are in order Starw, Doc, Fonzie, Reyes and Maz. So w/t/f are u all-about??
I brought up Everett because talent wise hes the guy who somewhat reminds me of this kid Millage,who I like but am
willing to move IF we can somehow get a legit #1 SP.
AND in your brilliance you forgot to mention that it took 7 seasons for Everett to put up the #s u mentioned.
U wanna wait that long?? I don’t!
hmm
he graduated high school in 1990
he played 11 games in 93 (as a sept callup)
he played 16 games in 94 (as a sept callup)
played 79 games in 95
played 110 games in 96
Everett played his first full season with the Mets in 1997…
he was traded in 1998
He had his .325 year in 1999
so basically, we gave him one full year…
and what makes u think it would take Millz 7 years!?!?
have we given Millz ONE WHOLE YEAR !?!?
Hey listen, if u wanna play johnnie cochran for Everett
thats great BUT theres a reason he was just playin’ indy-
ball on the island and wasn’t offered a job by anyone @
35 after having been w/ 10 teams in 13 yrs despite all
the talent in the world.–Oh, I figured it out just now,
It’s cause hes black. Yeah that must be it.
everett said he doesnt believe we landed on the moon…
everett also said he would “straighten” out any gay man he played with
everett also said he doesnt believe dinosours ever existed…
that alone would convince me that he shouldnt play on my team…
the big fossils in the museum dont look like big lizards…they look like dinosours…
errr, now I’m just confused !
Your making my head hurt!
Please stop!
I didn’t talk this much about carl everett when i rooted
for him everyday for two years.
Funny thing is that when we were down to using
Easley in the OF cause of injury, I wondered why
we didn’t atleast consider signing Everett to a minor
league deal?–Like Omar did for Sierra, Offerman,
Lima,gonzalez etc.. WAIT, could it be that they’re___
and Everett is ___???–NO !!!
But I have a feelin’ u would have looked at it like that.
Uhhh…no…didn’t we sign Marlon Anderson when we were short on outfielders?
didn’t we cut Julio Franco, who by the way is _____
to make room for Marlon Anderson who is not ____
…
hmm
Sierra never made the ballclub…cuz he was _____?
Offerman…Lima…Gonzalez…were all cut from the team because they were ______?
and of course we traded a Gaby Hernandez for Paul LoDuca, and Jorge Julio for Shawn Greene, just cuz they were ______?
Also, with the guys u mention its apples and oranges.
Agbayani and Brazell were never the talents Millage(or Everett)
is.—Franco was a borderline MLBer who really overachieved.
Rey-Rey was like most of the Cuban refugees a mystery—
except for his glove which was about as good as it gets.
And Jefferies was a BIGGER Prospect than anyone in the game
at the time except for Sheffield. AND yes he did fizzle however,
if he’d been put on the market after his first cup of coffee ,
you could have rec’d almost anyone in the game at the time!
AND THATS THE POINT, SELL HIGH !!
SO< again what exactly is your point?? Or is there one??
The reason I brought up those other failed Met prospects..
was because I was responding to this…
“Then theres the whole L-Millz
wanna be a rap star jive!! AND again, he hasn’t got hit w/ the fat paychecks yet! Does anyone remember Carl Everett?? He was
a serious BIG TIME TALENT, hows that worked out?”
At the time, Brazell was a big-time talent…
Aygbayani and Timo were all the rage..as was Cedeno and Melvin Mora ( who actually did get good much later)..and Bobby Jones…and Paul Wilson…and Bill Pulsipher and Izzy…and God knows how many failed prospects have come through our system…and the ONLY one he comes up with is a guy like Carl Everett…
if u dont think race is involved, ur either lyin to urself or just delusional…
Agbayani and Timo Perez were never bigtime prospects, and Cedeno came to us from the Dodgers. Carl Everett was a talent, and there were concerns with his character from the day he was drafted.
About the only one you got right was Mora. He was signed on the advice of Edgardo Alfonzo and was not considered a prospect at all. He showed nothing while with the Mets to prove he was a top talent, and unexpectedly blossomed after moving on to another team.
So I really don’t understand what you are trying to get at.
You should really calm down and take a look in the mirror.
Splash some cold water on your face. you’ll feel better. Really!
If you can’t gather what I’ve just posted after reading it again
then there really is no hope.
AGAIN, LAST TIME, IT’S NOT ABOUT HIS RACE! I’M COMPAIRING THE KID AS A BALL PLAYER!
Just like I said Mulvey reminds me of a bobby jones or kevin
tapani.—NOT a Doc Gooden—BECAUSE hes a righty who
has good control,some presence on the mound but is not
an overly hard thrower and likely a 3/4 starter NOT a Flame
throwing, dominant,commanding ace LIKE DOC.
Now that I’ve made it so simple that an 8 year old can understand it, if you don’t then, your rally gonna have to talk
to a pro cause I can’t help you anymore.
Grow-up, and live life a little before you so set your mind to
labeling people based on what you read on a BASEBALL BLOG!
The fact remains that there are several major leaguers whose first tour of duty was similar to Lastings Milledge’s and who have gone on to have stellar careers.
Now, several posters have issued decrees saying that it’s ridiculous to imagine that Pelfrey or Milledge will ever become outstanding ballplayers. I believe that position is ludicrous to take when we have seen both for less than one full season’s worth of work and what we have seen in Milledge is league average performance at age 22, which is an indicator of a bright future.
The first time I mentioned this, one poster responded that it wasn’t a representative sample, as though he were bent upon seeing Millz fail for some reason. I agree, however. It was not a representative sample. He was hitting at the notoriously difficult 8th spot and seeing sporadic time knowing that the formidable spectre of Shawn Green was lurking behind every out he made. If anything, his numbers understate his production.
Others have made the comparison between Pelf and Brandon Webb, exposing how absurd it is to give up on a young lefty pitcher so early in his career. When people talk about giving both up, and their pre-arbitration salaries and Humber and Gomez, and Gotay, and Heaven knows what else, for one pitcher who is nearing the end of his prime and who in all probability will hit free agency next year anyway, witout thinking twice about it, it tells me that they are not really thinking the issue through.
Neither Pelfrey or Webb is lefthanded.
Whoops.
Brain farted there for a second. I confused my pitchers and arguments.
wow…talk about defensive…..did I call u a name for u to say I labeled u ?
and this isn’t anything personal towards you..it’s people in general…
im ragging on the same people that compared Laettner to Bird…or in that time…any white dude with J to Bird…
people do it subconsciously…sometimes I do it too…Im not perfect either…skin color is the FIRST thing u see…just think…
Milledge= highly touted prospect…high expectations…criticized in the media…unpopular in the clubhouse
Jefferies= highly touted prospect…high expectations…criticized in the media…unpopular in the clubhouse
why would u not compare these 2, to each other before Carl Everett who was deal we did in ‘94…(Quilvio Veras)
He had been considered damaged goods and been given up on by 2 teams already…
and not to nit-pick, but u could’ve compared Mulvey to Anthony Young just as much as Bobby Jones…all had fastballs that topped out at 90-92 mph…both had good command…AY just played on some of the worst Met teams ever….he lost a game where he retired 23 straight hitters and went 1-16 with a 3.77 ERA…
Hey man, its pompous of you to tell this man, who grew-up in
Harlem in the 70’s and who saw the worst and best of all races
by person not by color whats in the back or front of my mind.
examin yourself first. Also,while Laettner was some player in college he was never Bird. The greatest or worst trash-talker of all-time. A killer on the court. Laettner never had that. b/t/w
Bird wasnot the player Majic was. And of course Jordan was on an even higher level.
w/ Laettner, once he got paid, the fire to improve was gone.
he hung around the league based on raw talent and fat contracts
Similar to juwan howard.
It’s like how boxing has changed over the yrs.instead of 10s or 100s of thousnds of$$$ young champs get millions.
No matter how hard u had it coming up, once u/get paid like that
plus all that comes along w/it are u gonna get up @ 5am to run
5 miles??—very few thats what makes the Jordan’s of the world
so special
>Hey man, its pompous of you to tell this man, who grew-up in
>Harlem in the 70’s and who saw the worst and best of all >races
>by person not by color whats in the back or front of my mind.
Honestly, where u grew up is of no concern…nor does it take away from the fact that u compared 2 people who really dont have that much to do with each other…other than they are black..played the outfield…and were young when they started for the mets….I call it like it is…u don’t like it, examine urself…
Hey Brron man, is that you?
anyway, goodnight.
there havn’t been this many commnets on a post since the mets were blowing it like paris hilton in a night club
Bottomline of it all:
Dodgers and Angels are thinking bats. Dodgers have a richer farm system, so they get dibs on Cabrera. Angels will take Tejada.
The Yankees are thinking pitching, as they aren’t trading valuable pieces like Hughes, Chamberlain or Kennedy for position players. My bet is Johan Santana for obvious reasons.
The Red Sox are not offering any prospects of value like Pedroia, Ellsbury or Buchholz, so they’re pretty much out of the picture.
Leaving the Mets as the only team with prospects to spare who can afford to trade them, and the money to re-sign their aces.
Here are my updated Hot Stove predictions:
Miguel Cabrera to Dodgers for Matt Kemp, Clayton Kershaw and Andy LaRoche. Dodgers move Cabrera to left field, keep Nomar at third base for defense.
Miguel Tejada to Angels for Sean Rodriguez, Nick Adenhart and Ervin Santana OR Brandon Wood and Ervin Santana.
Johan Santana to Yankees for Humberto Sanchez, Ross Ohlendorf, Melky Cabrera, and Philip Hughes.
A. Erik Bedard to Mets for Carlos Gomez, Mike Pelfrey, Aaron Heilman and Ruben Gotay OR B. Dan Haren to Mets for Lastings Milledge, Aaron Heilman, Mike Pelfrey and Ruben Gotay.
Mets sign Livan Hernandez
Cardinals sign Kyle Lohse
Giants sign Carlos Silva
Padres sign Andruw Jones
Should Mets scenario B occur, Mets sign Kosuke Fukudome.
Mets sign Miguel Cairo.
Yankees sign Aaron Rowand.
Cubs sign Mike Cameron.
A little extreme, creative, out of the box predictions…
Comments always appreciated.
I would rather see “B”. I dont want to give up Milledge. I want to keep him in RF. Plus Bedard may be a better option than Santana because he is younger and cheaper. If we could possibly Give the O’s someone other than Gomez then we can still do a Gomez for Garza deal with the Twins. Then we Have Bedard AND Garza. That makes the most sense to me.
Our best players of value are outfielders. No deal can get done without them, really.
Can’t we all just get along?
245 posts! Think Santana is a hot topic? Wow!
In this post Callis is quoted that the Mets can have Haren for a package of Milledge, Heilman, and Mulvey. I realize many “experts” through out deals like they are factual but for the sake of argument would any of you pull the trigger on that deal if possible? Haren is a stud but Beane must know something to want to get rid of him right? Milledge is tough to give up as well as Heilman if we dont have a suitable replacement, and as for Mulvey who knows really. It wouldnt be my favorite idea to get a starter, especially that I dont consider Haren an ace but I think I might do it. You guys?
I wouldn’t want Haren…much rather have Garza, esp since he will only cost us Gomez and a couple of B-level prospects….
i dont care what anyone says, Santana is gonna test the free-agent market no matter what, no sense trading for him…
Haren is a free-agent in 2 years….so basically the same thing applies to him too…
IF ( big IF ) the mets can get one of those other young studs…I’d much rather spend our prospects on proven YOUNG talent that isnt going to bolt in a couple of years…thats the ONLY way I can see trading our prospects or Milledge
Thank you.
Hey! Let’s trade 15-18 wins under our control for 3 years for…16-20 wins under a heavy salary for 1 year! And lets do it for a team desperate to unload their talent before it leaves!
15-18 wins for 16-20? Granted, they both had 15 wins last season, but the other, less lineup dependent stats are pretty strongly in Santana’s favor. I don’t think it’s a marginal upgrade.
Anyway, I can’t see the deal for Santana happening without Maine (probably not even with Maine), and it may be too much to let go of. I’d do it if I could get Santana locked up from the get-go, but I wouldn’t be comfortable with it.
Santana is better than Maine, and more than marginally so.
However, Maine’s stats are inflated by a series of starts after the All Star Break and before the Braves shutout where he was (as Metsgeek put it) craptastic. The rumor is that he was tipping his pitches.
If he takes care of that, and if his durability improves, Maine’s peripherals should drastically improve, and his strikeout peripherals are pretty damn good, even next to Santana.
Regardless, you don’t trade Maine for Santana. Not for a one-year rental, not for a five year lease. He’s too young, has too much upside, has proven too good already, and would set you back almost as much as Santana puts you forward.
Maine is all of two years younger than Santana, assuming Santana’s age has been accurately reported, and Santana’s pitch counts have not been huge. Let’s not pretend we’re talking about a huge age difference, here. You’re getting Santana’s best years. Immediately, he’s one of the top . . .oh, two pitchers in the NL. He even exceeds Hamels (who I would NOT trade for him, however.) Maine, best case scenario, will not be Santana. You never say never, but I wouldn’t make any decisions based on remote possibilities.
don’t make fun. That is your tax dollars at work. Fine educational system in play
one spelling mistake, was writing fast and didn’t check. know you geniuses never screw up. well hopefully the mets do better than i have so far.
Its cool dude. I have at least one typo per reply. Usually because I type slower than I think so one is further behind than the other