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In an interview with MLB.com, Billy Wagner spoke candidly on the state of the Mets and their off-season plans.
Among other things, Wagner discusses how the loss of LHP Tom Glavine and C Paul Lo Duca, combined with the activity of the Braves and Phillies, could make the Mets a third-place team.
Wagner as quoted by Marty Noble…
“We’ve lost 13 games [Glavine's victory total], and now we are going have to give up something to get those games back. I’m afraid we’re just going to create other holes if we give up a [Lastings] Milledge, a [Mike] Pelfrey or a [Aaron] Heilman…Without Aaron, it’d be like another 10 or 12 [games]. It would be a big chance to take. Without Aaron, [the bullpen] don’t even exist. No way you can trade him.”
…valid concerns by wagner, but if the answer isn’t there in free agency, the Mets have to give to get…glavine is harder to replace than a heilman, milledge or pelfrey, which is precisely why the Mets may be willing to part with those guys to find glavine’s replacement…besides, the better the rotation is, the less important the middle relief is…
Wagner, speaking about the bullpen…
“In Willie Randolph’s bullpen, it’s different. He wants guys to be able to go 2.2 innings or one-third of an inning or in between. That’s how he wants it. But guys just want to know, so they can prepare themselves and be comfortable…
“The idea is to get them into situations where they can be successful. I mean, you wouldn’t ask Carlos Delgado to bunt.”
…the article is definitely worth the read, but people will likely make a bigger deal out of this than necessary…it isn’t anything wagner hasn’t said to Mets management before, and i’m sure his comments are no different than the concerns of other players and fans…so, while i’d rather him not call out his manager, i also know wagner just wants to win and he’s never been one to beat around the bush…you know, it’s ‘billy being billy,’ if you will…
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frankly I don’t know what he wants the mets to do to improve.
like chris said, those players are expendable. especially milledge with two other outstanding outfield prospects who likely aren’t going to cause a clubhouse distraction.
we have to be careful when getting a player for more than 10 million for multiple years (e.g: carlos silva)
next year, we will have a big hole at 1st base, leftfied and possibly catcher as well.
we have a hole at catcher and possibly right field for this upcoming year if we trade milledge.
we need atleast 2 starting pitchers this year.
our best move is haren or bedard — both are a couple of years away from free agency and arent making that much money yet. This will allow us to make a run at tiexeira for 1st base next year or any other big time player.
although i would love to have him, whereever santana goes this year, he will go there and sign a 7 year contract after pitching 4 straight years of 200+ innings. theres no way he’ll be dominant for most of those 7 years and no way he’ll be healthy those 7 years.
on the other hand, haren has only pitched 1 or 2 major league seasons over 150 innings, he has alot left in his arm.
this package should do it - mulvey, heilman, gomez and gotay/b prospect
To be fair, we also have close to 45 million coming off the books next year between the contracts of Delgado, Pedro, El Duque, Alou, and Estrada. Nevermind the money that’s been freed up already by by losing Glavine, Valentin, Lo Duca, and Mota (Although adding Estrada). Which by my quick calculations is near another 20 million.
I agree you don’t want to trade all the kids because you want some cheap options, but we have the money to be able to buy talent next offseason and this offseason. A guy like Silva isn’t going to prevent a big market team like us from spending money in the future.
Glavine (4.5), Valentin (3.8), Lo Duca (6.25), and Mota (1.8) only come to about 16.6mil, if you include the money we paid to Glavine for his buyout. Also, Green saves another 3mil which does equal 20.
But keep in mind all the players that are getting raises this year: Reyes and Delgado get mil dollar raises, El Duque gets 2mil more, Wright gets 4mil more, Beltran is getting 6.5 mil more this year than last, OP, Maine and Feliciano should get more in arbitration… only Pedro gets a decrease (3mil less), so after a while that all adds up too.
Wagner needs to be traded to he’s a choke artist…how can our closer say we look like a 3rd place team for next year..yeah maybe if he keeps blowing saves…remember Glavine blew the most important game last year..
Exactly! If Wagner doesn’t blow a few games, maybe they’re World Champs! It’s his fault!!!
Uh, wow. Wagner is the anti-David Wright. David may think these things, but he knows that he has a responsibility to say the right thing. Positive things.
I don’t wonder anymore why Wagner has been an outcast in every clubhouse he has been in.
The offseason has just started and it sounds like Billy is panicking.
Lets see what the final product is……
This is why Billy Wagner drives me crazy. Mr. “Know Your Place Rook” is the biggest loose cannon out there - he makes Sheffield seem shy and team-oriented.
On top of that his “logic” (and I use that term loosely) makes absolutely no sense…
“We lost 13 games” (Glavine’s win total).”
Um…. yeah - assuming the guy you replace him with NEVER WINS A GAME ALL SEASON! Even an average starter will win about 10-12 games. Heck, bad as Pelfrey was last season, his numbers projected to 8 wins over a full season.
“Without Aaron, it’d be another 10-12 games.”
Billy, are you on drugs??? No one defends Aaron Heilman more than I do - but there is no freaking way he (or any other setup man in baseball) is singlehandedly responsible for a dozen wins a season. Look… last year, there were nine games the Mets wound up losing in which Guillermo Mota gave up at least one run. So basically, if you blame all of those losses on him and him alone… Mota 2007 would still only cost a team about 6 games compared to Eckerlsey 1990 (the year he saved 45 and posted a 1.35 ERA).
Is Billy really that stupid that he thinks losing Glavine + Heilman would cost us 23-25 wins next year? In other words, we would suddenly finish with 63-65 wins, the WORST RECORD IN BASEBALL - worse than Tampa Bay and Kansas City???
Give me a break…
well done
Nice post!
Oh, I forgot to add: Its one thing to be blunt with management, its another thing to be blunt with a reporter. He didn’t say one positive thing in that whole article.
well he probably did say some positive stuff but the reporter probably chose not to put it in…
Perhaps Wagner’s agenda was to hype up our talent to get more in return, as most met fans, at least at this site, seem to under value our guys.
See this doesn’t make sense to me. With this logic, if the Mets were to keep Glavine and Lo Duca, and keep Millege, Heilman, Pelfrey, etc… they will have the same production as last year, and they will once again be a second place team. Just because you lose a player does not mean that somebody else will not step up and fill that hole. Players improve, players decline, its never a given what a player, or team, will do the next season. I think the Mets need change, preferably improvement, so that they can put 2007 behind them.
he says this of lo duca:
“He battled every day, and we had some guys who didn’t show up every day. They were satisfied if they got a hit and we lost. Paul was [angry] if he had four hits and we lost.”
i wonder who the other guys are that hes referring to…
Probably the rest of the team. Seriously, did it look like anyone else cared?
100% agree with Wagner based on what I saw. Why losing Lo Duca was so detrimental to the team. Still having a hard time facing the fact that Lo Duca is gone……
The Billy Wagner “I said that, but I was Misquoted” statement coming soon…….
He’s just saying what everybody’s thinking. Yohan is almost definitely a no, face it the mets do not have the prospects for him. Any other top quality starter is probably not gonna happen, yet will require all the mets prospects for, which although easier to replace, they will still need to be replaced.
the only progress the mets have made so far is getting rid of mota.
Wait and see what the mets do before you bash the mets, i understand that. But don’t bash Wagner for stating the obvious at this point and time.
Who is Wagner to bash the Mets? All his blown saves and horrible outings at the end of the year? Each time he spoke out the Mets got worse, and YOHAN would be a great player if he existed….can we at least have comments made from people who have a clue?
The fact that LoDuca sometimes looks like he is hitting with a whiffle bat doesn’t concern Billy? Actually, I am pretty sick of Billy, and you can take his so-called “honesty” and shove it. How reassuring is it to hear a closer say “I suck” 10 or 12 times a year when he is pocketing 10-12 million a year?
Might as well re-post this where it belongs..
Well, at least Wagner isn’t afraid to share his opinion!
A couple of comments (from what I can remember of his ramblings. Hey, think he posts here?)
1) Glavine’s is effectively being replaced by Pedro. May not throw quite as many innings (probably will per start, but may need a break or two). I’m sure he can squeak out 13 wins along the way.
2) Heilmann is important, but if they get someone as good back, AH can be replaced (or supplemented). I see Wags point though about trading someone and leaving a hole elsewhere. Sanchez is the wild card here. If he comes back strong, the BP is much better.
3) Paulie’s fire was wonderful, but it didn’t really seem to help too much! Fire, grit etc. are overrated. What they neglected to do down the stretch was pitch well enough. Wagner included. Replacing him with someone of t least equal ability won’t weaken the team.
For all the talk of the collapse, choking, etc. the September fade still came down to starters gassing out, and the BP coughing up a ridiculous amount of large (4 runs or more) leads. A bad combo.
Still, the guys were trying, maybe too hard if anything. And the big issue with the starters was having to run out Chan Ho, lawrence etc. for a while to cover for the injuries (El Duque).
4) El Duque probably can’t handle the set up role (pitching every day for a stretch), but in a Sele/Swing role, he could be very effective. Pretty much to old Darren oliver role. Come in if the starter gets a quick hook, or pitch 3 innings in a blowout. Basically, take the load of the back end guys. No more Smith/Mota in the 4th inning deals.
not to mention maybe pitch the 6th or 7th of a game if say a feliciano or smith need the day off.
Hey Billy, shut up and pitch.
Leave the ridiculously obvious commenting to us nitwits on MetsBlog
hahaha
amen to that !!!
. . . wait a minute
JR (and Chris) agree that people will blow these comments out of proportion and that need not be done. At the same time, this is a guy who came to the Mets from a team where the shortstop yapped before the season about his team being the team to beat. Then that guy backed it up and they took first place. He was criticized for it, but at least he was saying something positive about his team. These are the comments Billy wants to go into the season having to contend with? That the team possibly is only a third place team? Its going to be kind of lame when he then says “well we’ll use my belief that we’re not so good as motivation to be better”…
The Mets don’t need a pitcher more than they need a right fielder.
Maine, Perez, Pedro, Pelf, Humber, Duque, and Mulvey are good enough in their spots. Perez might be the best no,3 starter in the N.L. And yes, Pedro is effectively replacing Glavine.
Milledge is too good a bet, and too young and too cheap, to go around saying nonsensical things about how replaceable he is. Who? Rowand? $15M more for comparable production and less potential? It’s like when silly people talk about how we should trade Reyes and replace him with Eckstein.
Actually, if Sanchez approaches his 2006 self, and if Muniz and Padilla are gangbusters, I would strongly consider making him the closer and trading Wagner. People will think I’m crazy, but Heilman is undervalued. He is a consistent and effective reliever who never seems to get his due. Wagner by himself could get you a nice package in return for a team that needs a closer.
Are you the only sane person on this board?
We sane are few and far between.
On paper I agree with you. If this were a computer simulation, you could trade Wagner, get a good windfall, and slot Heilman into the closer role without losing much. (I have no faith in Muniz, and we have to see how Padilla does with a rebuilt arm). In fact, if we hadn’t traded for Wagner a couple of years ago, we probably would have done that.
The problem is - much as I like what Heilman brings to the table, he’s not emotionally equipped to be a closer. He still has a starter’s mindset and admittedly struggles with the fact that he has to come into games in situations where he has to be effective right away and can’t take an inning to figure out his stuff. He’s been an elite 8th inning guy and I think he could still be an effective starter. But right now, with the exception of Wagner, I’m not sure we have anyone with a closer’s mindset.
I think he’s talking about Sanchez closing, not Heilman (assuming Sanchez is the same pitcher we last saw)
Interesting idea, 4Joe
The problem is, with that rotation and Pedro replacing Glavine, you’ve basically exchanged Pedro’s stuff of Glavine’s dependability. This rotation does not lack “stuff”. Its got plenty of it. It doesn’t have nearly as much dependability though.
Granted, banking on the improvements of Perez, Maine, and Pelfrey might be a better gamble than making a big trade, but its tough to fall back to that position after the way the season unraveled. That was what we heard all last offseason, but Pelf wasn’t ready at all, Maine wasn’t ready to be a stud for a full season, and Perez wasn’t ready to be completely consistent. And none of those things really should have been expected. The irony is, they might all be true in 2008. But its too early to tell, and Omar’s job is on the line. I don’t he’ll make one big run like he did last season (Daisuke) and quit. He’s going to turn over every stone for a dependable top of the rotation pitcher and see what it would take, and he’ll probably make whatever deal (if any) hurts the 2008 team the least (short of Wright/Reyes obviously).
Right now though, his best move might in fact to “go with his guys” as Willie would say. Its really the team Omar built now, but I doubt he’ll stand pat. And I can’t say I completely disagree. There’s a lot of money available, and improvements needed. If there’s a way to get an ace and it means getting slightly overpriced, league avg production out of RF and lose Heilman you have to pull the trigger. I don’t care how they put the bullpen together, just no more big contracts please. I won’t count on Sanchez or Padilla yet, but I think there’s enough of a chance to find a good reliever or two between them and all the other guys who could compete for a bullpen spot that its worth the risk (Smith, Collazo, Rustich, etc.).
putting aside the bit about sanchez approaching his 2006 self coming off two arm surgeries, what grain of evidence do you have to suggest that padilla and muniz will be “gangbusters.” this isn’t fantasy gm.
that was directed at orsulak - love the name though
love the name though
Thank you.
this isn’t fantasy gm
Dude, 1st, I said “if”.
2nd, people come back from surgery to be their old selves all the time. It’s by no means a sure thing, but that’s why I said “if”.
3rd Padilla, if I recall correctly, was lights out in 2005, and Muniz is a highly touted prospect. They are not sure bets, but again, that’s why I said “if”. (And I think Sanchez has closed before…)
4th, Are you one of those folks who doesn’t “trust” anybody except guys in position to make $25M/yr? Cause that’s what seems like fantasy GM to me. I was just throwing an idea out there.
Wagner was the same way with the Phillies. I, however, don’t know what he wants the Mets to do. He certainly doesn’t offer any suggestions. It seems like he wanted the Mets to stand pat and re-sign Glavine. I don’t think I agree with that thinking. Plus, we are getting Duaner back, so Heilman could be made expendable in the right deal for a starter (Haren or Bedard, etc.).
You know what Billy wanted. His comments now and his comments about Rick Peterson before = fire Willie & Peterson. I don’t think many fans would disagree. You can’t overhaul the team roster in a winter, and that’s not even needed, but you have to do something to show the team and the fans that there’s accountability and responsibility in this organization, and you can’t dress up the same franchise with a new year printed on top of the nearly same team photo and suddenly the choke is over.
I never wanted WIllie here. He’s a terrible x’s and o’s guy. He uses the bullpen as if we’re the Yankees. The list goes on and on.
Maybe Carlos Delgado should have been bunting. Maybe then he would’ve advanced a runner or two this season.
Here’s an idea Carlos: when the third baseman is playing all the way behind second base, drop one down the third base line for an easy hit. Ya know, just to break up the monotony of grounding into a double play into the shift in almost every big spot this past season. Scrub.
I think he forgot to write that in his notebook.
i think he actually did that a few times this season
he did it once… and it worked great… and never did it again.
That was my biggest pet peeve all season. If he would have laid down a bunt whenever they put the shift on him, they would have had to stop. Then all those bullets to RF that the 2b got would have been hits.
He could have broken Joe D’s hit streak with the lack of respect they gave him.
I guess there is sort of a double standard. Wagner says he is upset that some of his team mates could care less if they won/lost. But after each game he blows the lead in, we get the same tired line about how it’s just part of being a closer and that when he leaves the park he forgets all about it.
I agree with wagner. trading Heilman weakens our bullpen. trade pelfrey /Humber/Mulvey not Heilman.
I think it will take less in players and eventual salary to get Haren than to get Santana. If one of the three kids matures we do get a rotation of Pedro, Haren, Maine, Perez and a kid. Is that so bad? Did the Philles get that much better this off season (so far)?
I seriously worry if Wagner will let us down in 08. Despite the numbers he just didn’t appear to be a dominant closer. He looked panicking and inconfident many times. Maybe he needs to shut up and train harder for next season.
I guess it’s ‘not confident’?
I really dont think Glavine is all that hard to replace. Thirteen wins is Silva, L. Hernandez, Garcia, and maybe even Pelphrey possible if we get them enough run support. Also dont forget that if pedro is healthy he can easily equal what Glavie gave us so thats no sweat. The real concern is the lineup. I have to think that we need to get someone solid to play right because we all know Alou is not making it through the entire season, and unless 06 Endy shows up and not 07 Endy, we dont have a leftfielder for at the very least 50 games with Alou’s health. Catcher is fine as long as Estrada doesnt make too many people mad in the clubhouse, Milledge can play right and give us 20/80 which is enough, and the hugest of all huge questions is Delgado. If he hits we cover all thirteen of the games we lose from losing Glavine, plus more. He won thirteen games with a 4.45 era last year. Silva won 13 with a lower ERA in the American league on a team that really struggled to score runs and was in a division with two great teams(tigers and Indians). Stop sweating the Silva deal people. He would be a great addition.
This is funny. People complain because Wagner is too blunt and opens his mouth too much for the media. But when Willie is vague and generic (in order to not call guys out in the media) people complain that he just says the same things over and over. Folks there is a reason that Willie just says the same crap time and again. It’s because he doesn’t want to get into situations like this. (Not to mention the fact that he has to use the team that Omar gives him)
What we need is to trade for Nathan. Then Wagner would just have to shut up and pitch or become the 8th inning man.
Wagner, should just shut his flithy pie-hole and do his job!
Get a big out in an important spot for once billy-hick will ya?!
I can see why phillie fans are happy this guy is gone despite
their closer problems since.
he shoulda talked about how he sometimes cannot throw a strike if his life depended on it.
And b/t/w if you remember correctly it was his “tired arm”
which sealed our fate in sept. when the rest of the pen(which hes supposed to carry )was blown out .
my girl whos a phillie fan told me the day we signed him
there alot of Benitez in this guy i.e. big save #s/ lots o’ Ks
and “he will break your heart in a big spot”
So far, shes been spot on.
Billy’s a head case who has trouble with “stinkin-thinkin” He thinks everything’s going to the s$#@ter as soon as there’s adversity. Not a good trait for a closer and yes, very Benitez like.
Billy should try and close both his mouth and some games.
I agree with the person who said that Martinez basically replaces Glavine. He might not give us all of those innings, but I think he’ll give us equal or better performances.
I like Heilman, but don’t think he’s a make-or-break kind of guy. He’s a bit too prone to giving it up in big situations. If Sanchez returns healthy, we’d be looking pretty good.
Santana is great; no doubt. But I’d rather look towards Haren or Bedard. They both have the stuff.
STFU and PITCH!
I actuactly like his comments, they are true and it speaks to what everyone on this board is saying. With that being said, the guy just doesnt back it up, esp for a $13 million a year guy. His velocity is down, and now were seeing him have to actuactly pitch with less then dominet stuff. He is not a great pitcher and I personally havent seen that 100 mph heater he is suppost to have since he’s been here, he has been at 97 tops.
One interesting comment was that the pitchers trusted Lo Duca. This is not what we heard from management, apparently they were unhappy with Lo Duca’s pitch calling. Interesting…..Omar has thus far failed and he needs to land some front line pitching or he should be fired….Is Estrada the guy we want calling the signals behind the plate? Don’t know how good he is with this….As far as guys not caring if they win or lose, I think that Carlos Delgado is the poster boy for that poor attitude….and Reyes down the stretch…….The heat is on Omar let’s see what moves he pulls off…..Unfortunate that our prospect pool is weak and this too is Omar’s fault……
In the interview, Wagner lets slip that “LoDuca may not be the best game-caller…” or some such (I don’t have the quote in front of me.) But I was struck that Billy acknowledged what some have suspected: that LoDuca was well-liked but not always respected.
the natural progression of wright and reyes juxtaposed with a full year of pedro and sanchez in the pen and the addition of a frontline starter completely nixes wagners argument, barring injuries. But Bravo to wagner for supplying us with some bravado to talk about and to get the hot stove boiling.
id like to say his complaints fell on deaf ears but we’re all listening hard.
13 wins down the drain? what about pedro starting more than 5 games dude?
True a healthy Pedro will replace the games won by Glavine but I don’t think we can count on sanchez…..I think we need to be cautious about sanchez coming back strong…….Hopefully Reyes will give us 100%…..
If you ask me, Billy’s more concerned about the makeup of the clubhouse than anything else. He’s a country boy from Tannersville, Va., and he’s getting nervous about being the last white guy left in the clubhouse. We knew that he and Glavine were good friends, and it doesn’t surprise me that he and Heilman and LoDuca were also close.
I don’t think he really has anything to worry about–Maine, Humber, Pelfrey and others will still be there–but I think that’s the subtext of what he’s saying.
Now y’all can go ahead and crucify me for “bringing race into the disucssion.” But why not, if it does have an effect on clubhouse morale for some players?
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071127&content_id=2312659&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Click this link, and you will see the picture of Wagner….his jersey says LOS METS instead of just METS….quite comical…someone is playing a joke on MLB.COM
It’s not a joke. the picture just happened to be taken on spanish day where all the mets wore Los Mets jerseys.
can’t believe an excellent leader and class act like david wright would publically throw his front office, manager, and teammates under-the-bus.
oh, it was billy wagner. who cares what that half-wit has to say. that chewing tobacco must be making him light-headed.
i read pretty much every post above mine. I think as a veteran and supposed leader he shouldnt have said this to the media, BUT is it possible that the reason alot of us are getting mad at him now is because we kind of see the truth in his statements? maybe we just dont want to accept that what hilly billy wagner is saying could turn out to be completely true as far as being a 3rd place team.
the thing that angers me doubly is how j rollz proclaimed that the phils were the team to beat prior to the season and his premonition was correct.
now, wagner, the ex phil, is setting an expectation of finishing in 3rd.
my heart cannot take that
thats where the proverbial outrage comes from, methinks.
this is not a rebuilding year. this is world series or bust year. this is giving thanks to shea and to fans whos memories will be demolished along with the stadium.
he is not a good speaker and cant convey his thoughts into the proper words …. but can someone breakdown out bullpen minus Heilman?
I would never make aaron the “deal breaker” for us not aquiring Johan or Haren … im just saying … the pen is going to be even worse than last year … which is VERY scary
Trade Wagner
[...] dumb as those cracker-ass crackers (pardon Lastings’ inflammatory racially-tinged language) Billy Wagner and Paul [...]
We still need another starter.
We still need another starter.
No we don’t. If we could upgrade from an Humber to a Garza, that would be nice, but we have a good pitching staff as it is. Trading for a marginally better staff would simply weaken us severely in other areas.