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During a tour of Citi Field, Mets GM Omar Minaya talked with reporters and had the following to say regarding…
…why these other teams would even consider moving a top, young pitcher, given the state of the free-agent market…
“I was on that other side once, when in Montreal we had Colon – and you try to get the best players. In my case, I had to trade him because of payroll, and so it’s a little different when teams know you have to trade a guy…Now, though, the guys that are being mentioned out there, they don’t have to trade these guys. So, when you don’t have to trade a player, unless you get the deal that you feel is on your side of the ledger, you don’t move the player. From our point of view, it’s not that we have to, I mean, we’d like to, but we don’t have to – we can patch it up by going in to the market place.
So, we’re looking at different avenues, not only trades, but all of us are looking at the free-agent market…
“I find it kind of funny, because I keep hearing about some guys who are on the market, who are pretty good pitchers, that won 13 games, with ERAs in the high threes or fours, and we have two guys who won 15 games who are young with ERAs in the low threes. So, if we were to have our guys on the market, people would be saying, ‘Hey, you’ve got to get these guys.’ So, what I’m trying to say is, I understand that every one is looking for a front-line guy, but I don’t want to under-value two, young starters that won 15 games with ERAs in the threes. Not too many teams have those guys. Now, would I like to have another guy? Of course, I’m always trying to get more pitching.”
…whether he has been in contact with teams; the value of his current stock of players, and is it enough to make a deal…
“Look, all of those guys that are being mentioned, we’re in contact with them on a regular basis – and I think we’ve got a good feel. I can tell you that, we feel, no club has told us ‘Forget it you’re not in it.’ Maybe they have told us, ‘Hey, for you to be in you have to have this player.’ And we say, ‘Thank you very much, but we’re not going to be in with this player’s name in it.
“The goal is, I’m trying to put together a team that can win some place around the 85– to 95–win category, a) you’ve got a competitive team and b) you should be in the playoffs, and it’s about the 162 games. To say one pitcher is gonna win you a championship, I mean, once you get to the playoffs it’s a crapshoot – you just don’t know what’s gonna happen.”
To listen to his entire conversation, go to WFAN.com.
I was just about to temper some of my earlier comments and then I hear that Omar has said that his goal is to win 85 to 95 games (we did that last season). Having a goal to at least win 85 games, in my book, is not a high enough goal. In a NY Market with the money that is being made and ticket prices, etc. it’s horsebleep. I know he wants to get into the playoffs and then play the game of craps, but c’mon. Having a solid team helps your odds to some extent in the playoffs and 85 games doesn’t guarantee you a playoff slot, so the goal needs to be higher.
Absolutely, 100% correct. I felt a little odd about that, too. The goal should always be to field the best team possible, and strive to win over 100 games. That said, I think he’s right in the sense that you don’t necessary scrap a team you think is in the 90 win range because you’re unsatisfied with less than 120 wins. You build a competitive nucleus. But, I don’t think that’s what he meant, unfortunately. He’s either (a) letting slip the Wilpons’ standard for profitability (competitiveness without true contention) or (b) just tempering expectations, and staying the course toward building a consistent winner, which is building primarily from within. I think it’s a little bit of both. They’re not interested in taking the risks necessary to put a real contender on the field next year, but they think developing players from within can get them there in the future, at lower cost.
I’m moving toward hoping the Mets DON’T move any young players, because the market is ridiculous, and outside of Santana, the track records of the pitchers we’re talking about are thin. For the most part, it’s a half-year of dominance. I feel best about Bedard, but if Milledge/Heilman/Humber didn’t get him, and adding, say, Mulvey doesn’t put them over the top, forget it. Wait for somebody to surface in free agency. Heck, who pitched better last year, Gil Meche, Ted Lilly, or Barry Zito?
I took his statement a little differently. To me, you can never think you are going to win more than 95 games. You obviously put together the best team you possibly can – but to have a team win that many games takes so much more than assembling a good fantasy roster. It takes chemistry, lack of injuries – things you can’t measure in the offseason. You put together a team you think will be competetive, and then hope that all of those things go right and turn you into a great team. Good teams on paper have become great teams in the season (2001 Mariners), and Great teams on paper become not so good teams. All the general manager can do is put together a team he things is a very good team – 85 to 95 wins, and hope that they become great.
At least that’s how I took it.
That’s not how I took it. Great teams on paper do sometimes remain great. Sometimes they win the 2007 World Series. He’s basically trying to lower everyone’s expectations, including potential trading partners, and I think he may have miscalculated how that was going to look. He should just come out and say that he likes his team, he sees improvement, and he thinks they’re a contender as they stand. In the meantime, we’re always exploring options to make our team better. We love our prospects though, and we’re not inclined to deal them unless we see real value, and their value to us is high, blah, blah, blah. . …
Wow. a whole lot of what we already know.
However, he did seem to cut the hype down to size a bit. Maybe this all needed to be said to provide an aura of constraint, so that iit is not expected that the Mets will blow up the farm to get short term fixes for the franchise. If other teams think we aare desperate they are going to keep making unreasonable offers to us.
Matt, what are your thoughts on Omar’s comments?
It seems to me he is not looking to over-pay in a trade for a pitcher. Which is good in the long-run but he also pretty much said that in order to get these good young pitchers that teams are dangling, the offer must be over-top for them to consider it. Which makes sense. I mean the A’s really don’t have to move Haren, who they control for three more years. A guy like Haren, Bedard, and even Peavy, are not being thrown out the door for nothing, they are teasing other clubs into over-paying because there really is no rush or pressure to move them.
Omar is trying to keep the market down a little. He doesn’t want to overpay and I agree with this. I Still think we’re going to get one of the guys from Oakland. Which is just fine.
I disagree with his assessment that 2007 “won 88 games but had a bad two weeks” meaning it was a very good team with a hiccup.
The 2007 Mets never put the division away. Their longest winning streak of the season was 5 games. They phoned in an awful lot of Sunday afternoon games.
If you go back and look at the Mets record last year they had a couple of bad 2 week periods. And it wasn’t like they were playing in the AL East. This team needs an attitude adjustment and a bigger overhaul than Omar is talking about. If you look realistically the 2006 Mets weren’t a great team either. In many ways they were a product of a terrible NL East.
I agree. We had numerous “bad weeks” throughout the season. When we hit, we couldn’t pitch and when we pitched, we couldn’t hit. Having the bullpen pitch at least 4 innings in almost every game certainly didn’t help. Our bullpen was good, they were just over-used which magnified their weaknesses.
We had a mediocre four months, capped off by a historically horrific two weeks. To the extent that “bad” excludes mediocre and includes some of the worst baseball in post-inaugural season Met history, he was right on target.
Agreed. After opening at 33-17, they were two games under .500 the rest of the way. That is not a bad two weeks as Omar said. Its a bad four months. Also, agree that too many third games of series i.e. Sunday afternoons. Attitude adjustment would be good, Willie included.
He’s hedging people! Can’t you see that? He doesn’t believe what he’s saying, but he’s trying to do two things:
1) Make fans feel that a big deal is not a necessity.
2) Make prospective trade partners think that the Mets are not desperate.
That’s it.
+1
+1
I like having Ollie and Maine but I would like them alot more in a playoff series as the #2 and #3 guy (no particular order). I would really like and I think would benefit us greatly if we had an ace going in any game 1. I mean just ask the D-backs, Cardinals, Marlins, and the Sox, who all had great pitching rotations and who all won it all.
Cardinals? Last year? Um……..
I’m talking about the years that each of those teams won it. Cardinals you can make an arguement for since their pitching rotation didn’t really step up until the post-season, with the exception of Carpenter. I mean I wouldnt put a team with Jeff weaver and A. Reyes as one with a great rotation. Its just once they were in the playoffs, it was their pitching that won it for them.
I agree with alot of what he said about the market. Good to hear he’s not running around with his head cut off (like some people on here want him to be.)
With that said, I also agree that he’s aiming low, and that he’s overvaluing last year’s team. Talent wise I think we were fine, but getting that talent to shine never happened.
You gotta blame Willie for that.
Willie stinks. Never liked him as a manager.
Is it willies fault? A little bit of it is, yes. But maybe the players we had just didn’t have what it took to put it together on their own. Then the question is risen, should these players be able to step it up when the time comes? As a profesional baseball player, yes they should be able to. When you get paid an average person’s annual income per game, I think they should. But then again, is it the managers responsibily to guide these players? It could go either way, maybe even both.
TRUE TRUE TRUE.
But the practicality of it all is this, and history has confirmed:
Whenever it is manager vs. players, the manager always goes b/c it is logistically and financially the most prudent move.
Last two weeks they were bad?? That’s missing the fine details again Omar. What’s interesting to me and nowhere mentioned amongst the endlessly repetitive verbiage are the parallels with last season. What was the post-All-Star Game record of the Mets, 2006? The main difference between the last 2 -3 months of both seasons is that in 2006 there was no realistic competitor, and the lead was insurmountable. But both years they just dried up and died, at about the same time.
Sounds like Omar’s hedging…
Omar’s not hedging. He’s just trying to soften the blow of what we already know….the Mets are NOT going to obtain a #1 starter during the offseason. They just don’t have the same calibur prospects the Yankees, Dodgers, Angels, or Red Sox can offer to make that kind of trade.
That’s the definition of hedging.
IMO, hedging gives us hope that it might or might not happen. Let’s put it into perspective…there’s nooooo wayyyy it’s happening. lol
Hedging is when you are protecting against a bad outcome. That’s what he’s doing. To say that there is no way he can trade for a good starting pitcher is a bit premature. Now, is he getting Santana? No.
There is no way Omar (unless he guts the farm system of every top prospect,) will get a number 1 starting pitcher. The Met prospects can not match up with what the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, D’Backs or Dodgers have to offer if those teams are definitely looking to get a #1 starter themselves.
Translation: we’re screwed.
It’s a game of chicken. Don’t bail and give in Omar, step on the gas.
I think you always shoot for 90 wins. I think 85 wins leaves you in the hunt, but you’ll most likely be scheduling golf in October.
I think the team as constructed will win 85 games. If you want to let the kids develop, I think you’ll win 90 in 2009 without any other roster moves.
Currently, we are trusting 60 starts to El Duque, Pelfrey & Humber, once El Duque needs time off. I would expect 30-30 in these games. To win 35 of these games, an upgrade is required. Livan is not an upgrade. Silva probably isn’t either. Haren would be, and he alone will make us a playoff team.
His comments are reassuring that he won’t trade Ollie and Maine (which obviously would be robbing peter to pay paul, as many people have said.) Do we need additions to the rotation? Yes definitely.
But no one knows how Humber and Pelfrey are going to fair this year, and i’d bet they are going to do much better than most are giving them credit for. The reason their stock is so low (ive said this tons of times) is becuase they havent been given an adequate shot to raise that stock!
Hopefully Billy Beane can work something out with Omar for at least one of their guys and we can put Pelfrey in the 5th spot. Gotta have faith guys!
Right on, however, we’ve seen how fans, and Mets mis-management have treated other players that haven’t been afforded an adequate shot, ie. Heilman, Anderson Hernandez, Bannister…
Anderson Hernandez???? Was he supposed to keep playing hitting sub-.200??? Was he then supposed to start over Valentin, who was a revelation?
How many at bats does he have? You probably think we should trade Reyes. He had a bad month in the majors too.
When have the Mets “mismanaged” him?
And come on, you can’t just give every player three months in the starting lineup of an MLB team. You and I have zero at-bats. I guess that means we need to take a few cuts to see if we might be Albert Pujols.
At some point, you have to decide who merits what shot. Reyes was adjudged to have far more potential than Hernandez. Are you disputing that? What’s more, he performed better than Hernandez when auditioned. When a player shows nothing in a small sample, I would think that that’s very different from a player who has at times looked overmatched, but has generally played at an all-star level. Hernandez hasn’t shown much consistency. When would you have started him?
I don’t recall Reyes ever hitting as bad as A-Hern did (or anyone else for that matter)… Someone prove this wrong, please?
“The reason their stock is so low (ive said this tons of times) is becuase they havent been given an adequate shot to raise that stock!”
That’s just not true.
It’s partially true. Let’s say Milledge had a more prominent role last year and was able to produce like a Matt Kemp produced last year, his value would have been much higher than it is now. But instead it was Shawn Green who got the call the majority of the time. As far as AHern goes, he really wasn’t given a shot…being given a shot means you play him the entire year and see if he develops. It doesn’t mean you play the guy for a month and if he doesn’t hit it’s over. (Personally I would have pulled him too though. :-) )
Your definition of being given a shot simply does not hold in NY. Whether you are right or not, it doesn’t hold in NY.
Also, you do have to show something offensively to continue to deserve that shot. Hernandez did not. If he had hit even 250 then maybe. The only reason we are still even bringing him up is because he played outstanding defense. Put his defense with Gotay’s offense and give that player a shot.
This is a message in the only way he can deliver it to the rest of the baseball world. We don’t really need your middle level pitchers. We have 2 on our staff now that are as good as what you are offering. We will not be destroyed if we dont improve out pitching by being fleeced for your 13 game winners with eras in the low 3’s.
Translation – Keep your crap or look elsewhere. We woudl just as soon go to war with what we have than overpay for your player. We are not as bad off as you think. We are not desperate to do a deal with you.
I like it actually. Plus he is right. Is Blantons 14 wins much better than Silvas 13 at no cost in terms of prospects? Is Harens 15 wins enough better than Maines 15 to break up the rest of our team (Reyes or Milledge and Heilman and Pelfrey etc). Be smart is what he is preaching.
Is a low 3’s ERA in the AL more impressive than one posted at Shea? Yes. But, I get your point and agree. Short of Santana, it seems ridiculous to be loading the entire farm system onto a truck and dumping it at the door of Network Associates Coliseum, or whatever it’s called these days. We don’t have what the Twins want for Santana (more of a Major League track record — consensus seems to be that we’ve rushed our guys) and there’s a steep drop to second best in that sweepstakes. Let the Red Sox or Dodgers overpay for Haren, Blanton, or whomever. If the market softens after the Yankees and Red Sox make their moves, pounce.
i’m pretty much with him, but there’s a couple major problems. the goal has to be 90-100 wins, and this
“Is it good to start the year with a team that won 88 games, but had a bad two weeks?”
this team was four games under .500 from the end of may. it was a bad four months. the ‘bad two weeks’ mindset, i’m praying, is just public spin. it’s dangerous to think like that because it demonstrates a misunderstanding of the kind of team he has.
I was just thinking about a dark horse team for the Santana sweepstakes. I know people have mentioned the Mariners once in a blue moon. Do you think the Mariners would trade Felix Hernandez/Betancourt/ and prospect Adam Jones to get Santana. They do have the money to pay Johan (if he would go there). And that is an organization that won 88 games last year with essentially smoke and mirrors, Santana would be a real addition to them. I am just thinking out loud. To me, if the Mariners were willing to deal Felix Hernandez (who I imagine Minny would demand in ANY Santana trade), then THAT is the team I would want to be trying to work a trade out with.
I wouldn’t do it. King Felix is the real deal, why move him?
What a joke. 85-95 wins as a goal! Goals are supposed to be set higher than what can realistically be achieved. These comments tell me one of two things. That Omar is nervous he wont get anyone substantial and is trying a preemptive strike to lower expectations, or he is playing it coy and trying to lower our expectations only to snag a big fish and make everyone fall in love with him.
Hopefully its the latter. Unfortunately I fear its the former.
He’s doing both.
There is only one opening in this rotation. Minaya said the other day that El Duque is not being moved to the bullpen. Could he be full of it? Sure he could, but all we can do is take him at his word right now.
So that means the rotation looks as such: Pedro, Perez, Maine, Duque. He’ll probably take a run at a front end guy, but settle on Livan if he fails.
The more I think about it, the more I want to just go with what we have and not make any moves. Hope our older players rebound while giving guys like Pelfrey, Humber, and Milledge and opportunity to shine.
This could go a few ways, but look at the two most likely scenarios. The team does well, Minaya beefs up at the deadline.
The team falls out of it. They have some players to sell off to contending teams and try to reload for 2009 when they move into their new joint.
This is the benefit of opening a new stadium in 2009. This season is pretty much a “free play”, to use a football analogy. The people will come to Citifield no matter what, because it’s a new stadium and they’ll still have a young core of players that will be supplemented by players brought in due to the influx of cash freed up from some of the departing vets.
Think about it. Would it be so terrible to miss the playoffs because the older players fizzled out if Pelfrey and Milledge take a step forward and assert themselves as key players for the future? I don’t know how anyone else feels, but I would be pretty excited if we could definitively add them to Wright, Reyes, Maine, Perez, and Beltran as the core of the team. Then we could reload in ‘09 and open a new stadium by signing Tex for first when Delgado leaves and hopefully FMart will also have shown why he’s been promoted so aggressively. Imagine this:
Reyes SS
Castillo 2B
Beltran CF
Wright 3B
Tex 1B
Milledge RF
FMart LF
Catcher
Maine, Perez, Pelfrey as the anchors of the staff with a possible signing such as Johan, Sabathia, Penny, Sheets, Lackey, Aaron Cook… all of whom are FA’s after next year.
Anyway, just a thought.
I think of Pedro/El Duque as one entity. One or the other is going to be hurt and God-forbid both at the same time!!! [knock on wood]
As for Maine/Ollie – could go either way. I don’t they could improve much more, but there’s definitely more room to under-perform.
I think Ollie has more upside b/c his 15 wins were ugly. As for Maine, he was getting tired, but batters were learning to layoff that moving fastball of his.
I think Maine would be a better bet to improve because he has a bit more control than Ollie and his motion is pretty effortless. He added a two-seamer last year that was a nice change from his 4 seamer. His slider and change looked good at times last year as well. As he gets more comfortable with his off speed stuff I think he has a chance to be a very good #2 with a chance at being an Al Leiter level ace. Now that he’s thrown a full season, I expect him to be able to show some more consistency. His near no-hit game was fun to watch.
Ollie, who’s stuff I love, is a bit more volatile but with filthy stuff. I think his hip problem caused his velocity to drop, which led to his poor second half performance. 2007 was a nice step forward for Ollie. Let’s hope he can keep working to repeat his delivery and keep his walks down. As long as he does this, he should continue to at least pitch at his 2007 level.
What I like about both guys is their mentality. They’re both tough and bounce back well after bad losses and pitch well in big games. Stamina and the league adjusting to them affected their second halves, but they’re talent and stuff is undeniable, and with a year of experience under their belt, I expect them to at least emerge as solid #2 options.
My take is that if they can get Santana, back up the truck. If they can get Bedard, give up one – and only one – of the top OF guys and whatever else it takes. If you can’t get either, wash your hands of it. (I would have done Milledge-Blanton straight up, but that’s it, and that ain’t happening.)
I would like to see more from the young players. If we still need to trade after next year, imagine what we could get for a Gomez who hit .300 at AAA, or a Milledge who drove in 90 runs? Sounds like we could get a Garza. . . . and at that point, maybe we’re happier not trading. . . . Or, if Santana stays with Team Twink until the deadline, maybe our guys look that much better. . . . I think the team would obviously be much aided by a top pitcher, but are we dead without one? Hardly.
162 wins or bust!!!
163. Despite all the head-to-head matchups, I expect the Phillies to win every game, too, at whcih point, we’ll need a one game playoff.
Sounds like Minaya is starting damage control ALREADY for the fans, prior to the Winter Meetings! He knows he won’t be getting a starting pitcher, so he is tempering the fans’ enthusiasm. He’ll re-sign Sosa, and then sign Livan Hernandez, and call it an off-season? Wow, he should be canned if that occurs. Off the worst collapse ever, humiliating the team and their fans, and Johnny Estrada and Brian Stokes might be the big deals? Haha!!!