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In a chat for ESPN.com, Jayson Stark had the following to say about the Mets acquiring C Brian Schneider and OF Ryan Church for Lastings Milledge:
“The Mets have been looking for a defensive-minded catcher who could lead a staff, and Brian Schneider does that as well as anyone. And Ryan Church is a better player than you’re giving him credit for. He’s better than a fourth outfielder, even though he might be more a 5-day-a-week kind of player than a 7-day -a-week kind of player. And Milledge, frankly, turned out to be overrated. HIs value had plummeted. For a team trying to win in the short term, like the Mets, I totally understand this trade, Now let’s sit back and see how good Milledge turns out to be.”
…it’s early in the history of this deal, but i’m getting the sense that this has everything to do with milledge…and that, most Mets fans who are irate about this deal, are fans who still view milledge like it’s early 2005…personally, i still believe he’s going to blossom in to an exciting player, but if he has very little trade value, and the Mets had soured on him, i guess it’s better to move on now than to wait and see…
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Hopefully the Orioles agree.
spin, spin, spin.
Indefensible and awful.
How is it spin?
Look at it this way: the three teams Omar has been trying to get a starter from both need a CFer, and they both have said they want a cheap, proven player to take over. They made it clear to him that Milledge is NOT that guy. However, Melkey Cabrera is? Why? Milledge is better than him. But Melkey is “proven”. To me, Ryan Church is at least as good as Melkey if not better, so it doesn’t seem like spin to me to say that Church will likely be starting in center field for an AL team next season, especially hours before we even announce that we have him on our team at all. Give it time. The season doesn’t start for four months.
both = all
it’s spin because at the age of 22, Milldge produced a very nice line. It’s not like he failed- when he played, hie displayed terrific potential. if his trade value is low, then KEEP HIM! If he continued to progress as he did between 2006 and 7, he’d already be a good starting RF’er in 2008, all at the age of 23, and controllable for years to come. That’s not valuable?
Schneider’s no better than LoDuca. OK he throws guys out, but big deal- whatever he can do defensively is offset by his 75 OPS+. Church is OK, but he’s 29, and he ain’t getting any better than he already is. He’s going to give you what Milledge would have this year, except it’ll be his peak, when Milledge is clearly going up.
Now, unless others view Church MUCH higher than Milledge, what’s the point? Maybe some team does. Maybe Heilman and Church lands Haren. But c’mon, does that seem likely?
Cerrone,
I don’t know how much revenue those “In Omar we Trust” T-Shirts bring in, but, I can guarantee you this…you won’t be making much money off those in the near future.
Cerrone is a kiss-up, I can now see; and I will frequent this blog much less as a result.
4JoeOrsulak is unwilling to admit that his increasingly outrageous predicitions for Milledge’s stats were not in line with those of most Major League scouts and observers.
We’ll see toomany.
Time will tell; we’ll see who’s right.
4JoeOrsulak’s reverence for L-Millz had me scratching my head as well.
btw, time won’t tell. the trade is done and over with. L-Millz can be the next ARod, but the fact of the matter is is that his value now is complete p00p.
I, on the other hand, would have just held onto Millz. Take a gamble on him surpassing expectations.
sorry man…he might treat lightly with criticism sometimes, but both Stark and Cerrone are dead on here. We want to believe Lastings is something he isn’t.
We operate in this fairy tale world where we like to believe what we want about our team and our prospects. Omar operates in the real world…he sees the real value of his chips. Lastings’ value was plummeting and, clearly, the organization was not sold on him as a long time NY Met.
Church>Lastings and Schnieder is a nice throw in that makes Castro or Estrada expendable. I like it
I am thrilled to have Schneider behind the plate…he is going to be able to help both Maine and Perez.
As far as Church goes, I think we have ourselves a pretty good RF who will probably hit better at shea then he did at RFK. I hope Lastings the best but maybe it was just the right time.
You’re intellectual contributions will be greatly missed . . .
You still believe he is going to blossom, and he has very little trade value.
Then why I ask, would you TRADE him?!?!?!
Milledge is 22 already effective in the majors, hitting with POP, fast as hell and an excellent developing fielder. The guy lears a little patience at the plate and how to control the strikezone he is the next Sheffield.
Gomez is never going to be half that player.
If everyone is high on Gomez and not Milledge, GREAT!!! Trade Gomez and KEEP Milledge!!!!
Pros/Cons:
Schneider vs Estrada = wash. Defense is better with Schneider, offense better with Estrada.
Milledge vs Church = wash. Church is more polished, but Milledge has the higher upside and both will probably put up similar numbers in 2008, but Milledge can potentially bust out, whereas Church is pretty much a finished product at 29.
I really don’t see the point of doing this unless Schneider is a great clubhouse guy and staff leader or has intangibles that I don’t know about.
I completely agree. Even if you are so worried about Estrada not being able to field the position, defensive catchers who cant hit are a dime a dozen. They shouldn’t be a major part of a trade for a star prospect who is still 3 year away from his prime.
To say that Schneider vs. Estrada is a wash is too simplistic. Obviously the Mets think that what Schneider brings to the table is more important for them right now than what Estrada brings. Schneider is not like Alberto Castillo or Doug Mirabelli — guys who are major-league backups because of their defensive skills but would never start 100 games a year. Schneider has several years’ experience as a #1 guy. Now, I’m concerned he might be on the decline. But he’s likely to do a little better offensively in the Mets’ lineup than he did with the Nats. I don’t know yet whether I like this trade — it depends on what comes next — but I think I’d rather have Schneider/Castro than Estrada/Castro.
Why make this trade now? Should we assume that all other options for a Milledge trade were exhausted?
I’;d wager that Omar is a smarter man the 99.9% of the people posting here. Don’t judge the offseason till it’s over. If we had judged David Wright by his first 6 weeks . . . and he damn near won the MVP!
No, Omar is not smarter than 99.9% of people here.
What about David Wright? He was a stud from day one.
game #1 (Jul 21, 2004) to game #35 (Aug 28, 2004)
35 games
144 plate appearances
137 at bats
23 runs
40 hits
12 doubles
0 triples
6 hr’s
19rbi
6 walks
.292 avg
.326 obp
.511 slg
.837 ops
Elster…I think he was referring to the beginning of this season..
nice stats though!
yes.
I’d wager that Omar is a smarter man than 99.9% of the people posting here. Don’t judge the offseason till it’s over. If we had judged David Wright by his first 6 weeks . . . and he damn near won the MVP!
can we judge omar by what he did not do last off season. likwe strengthening our starting rotation w/ a mench or lilly or both? not trading bannister for nothing. the club built up the expectations around miledge, then don’t give him an opportunity to fullfill it. i’m sure manny acta knows what he is getting in milledge and will be very happy to have a young dymanic player on his team.
omar imo is over rated.
Cerrone, I have to disagree with your take on Starks comments. If Milledge was 26 and he never produced, I guess you could say that we are all living in the past when he was thought of as a super prospect. But the guy is only in his low 20s, and never really given a shot to play everyday. He has plenty of time to adjust and become the star everyone thought he would become. I think at worst, if you put Milledge in there everyday this year, he would put up numbers similar to Church. Why not wait on the upside and the increase in trade value?! Trading him now was the worst possible move. I think the best course of action would have been to “wait and see”
As for Schneider, he might be a defensive wiz but he cant hit a lick. How much worse would we have been with any veteran catcher out there. I could live with Difelice backing up Castro. Schneider isnt enough of an upgrade to sacrifice Milledge’s upside.
I couldn’t live with DiFelice backing up Castro. Let’s not go nuts here. Schneider is in a different stratospher offensively from DiFelice. That’s not an endorsement on Schneider’s bat either.
Even if Milledge’s value has gone down, he is already as good as Church, and younger and with more upside.
Plus, the Mets now have 3 catchers. So this doesn’t help.
This deal just doesn’t make the Mets any better, but it makes them older. That is not good.
And Milledge, frankly, turned out to be overrated.
Quite a bizarre statement that nullifies anything Stark is trying to say as an “expert.” Or maybe this is actually the year 2010 and I’ve just awoken from a multiyear coma, sleeping through Milledge plummeting as a major leaguer.
My sentiments exactly. All of a sudden the guy has no chance of being a star when his tools havent changed, he hasnt been injured….he just had one mediocre season at 22 years old. OH MY GOD, the guy didnt hit 30 HRs at 22 years old. He must be a bust. DUMP HIM, CUT HIM, GET HIM OUTTA HERE!!! :(
I was actually starting to side with the “Let’s do nothing and let our kids grow” movement starting to take shape on this board, but this trade changed that.
1) The Mets had soured on Milledge, for sure.
2) You can’t look at this deal until the next few days and the rest of the offseason pan out.
3) Since Omar appears to be going for the gusto, none of us can complain about “what could be” in terms of our prospects. We are squarely in a “win now” situation and frankly, we are now starting to trade guys with big upside in the 3-5 year horizon for guys more in their prime.
Also, on another board, they are saying 1050 is talking like the Mets are close on Bedard, and it could get done next week. If so, and this trade is either a pre-cursor or a way of filling gaps in advance of that trade, then we may all be happier.
lets hope that is the case amd they needed a catcher back ina mega deal bc we took back their ramon hernandez along with bedard
Good point…And they may not be big fans of Estrada. Then with Gomez going, you can slot in Chuch’s lefty bat and steadier glove in RF….both of those guys are cheap (Church isn’t eligible for arbitration)…This move alone doesn’t make enough sense to be a stand alone…Even when Omar made some bad moves, you could see the logic behind it….With this, I’m not so sure.
” and the Mets had soured on him, i guess it’s better to move on now than to wait and see”
like the mets soured on kazmir?
exactly!
And Ryan Church is a better player than you’re giving him credit for
Yes, he’s ok but he’s approaching 30 and Milledge pretty outproduced in less at bats and at a much younger age!
Church had 40 doubles this past season.
When you combine Milledge’s two season, which comes out to 350 AB’s, he had 40 doubles as well!!! ridiculous!
And Milledge, frankly, turned out to be overrated.
That’s nonsense!
He never had the position full time to even be considered a bust! And again, he’s 22 years old!
, but if he has very little trade value, and the Mets had soured on him, i guess it’s better to move on now than to wait and see…
If he has little value then your not forced to trade him. And if they sour on him because of this imaginary attitude problem then, ok, its good to see that’s how they run thier business. It demonstrates they don’t care about winning.
Bad trade all around, very, very bad.
Jim Bowden strikes again…
I agree completely. There is no law that said Omar had to make a trade of milledge, if his value is low, hold onto him and let him try to play his value back up as the starting RF.
Additionally, the only way Milledge has “decreased his value” over the last few years is with attitude issues. Guess what, teams don’t care about attitude issues as much as they pretend to. Of course everyone was telling Omar that they didn’t like LMillz as much because of off the field stuff, they want his value low.
Omar got played out of desparation to make some sort of deal. But 1 thing is clear, this deal does NOT make the NY Mets any better.
Actually I’m sorry, I gotta take that 40 doubles thing back, it wans’t true. It was actually 40 extra base hits, which includes homers, but you know what as a 22 year old, its good enough for me.
sorry… site loading way too slow… only saw your take back now. But 40 extra base hits is not that great. Though i agree that he’s too young to really judge how good he could be.
Milledge did not hit 40 doubles… nice try… unless you’re looking at minor league stats which I don’t know off-hand. Over the course of two seasons and 350 abs he hit a grand total of 16 doubles! Woo-hoo! Check your stats first! Nowhere close to 40.
I don’t get this organization…………….. what a year… thanks omar
Omar clearly has a thing for Ryan Church…this is the 2nd time he has traded FOR him. Last time he acquired him as GM of the Expos.
Yeah — when, exactly, did Milledge “turn out to be overrated”? What was expected of him last season? So many of these reporters subsist on feigning authority on things they actually know little about. “Oh, Milledge? Yeah, I haven’t heard much about him. Must be a dud.”
That said, on the off-chance that he’s getting a true gauge of Milledge’s marketability, can the people predicting he’s about to turn into Grady Sizemore tone it down a notch, until proven otherwise?
Is Cerrone allowed to say anything negative about the Mets or is he now on the payroll?
There is no way to spin this as being a positive deal (except if they go on to trade Church for a pitcher Milledge wouldnt have brought back for them). At the very worst, Milledge will turn out to be Church. I am not a huge fan of Milledge but even if you dont think he will work out, keep him for now or trade him for at least a reliever. All this does is make the Mets older, with less prospects for trading, overall talent, and potential for greatness.
most Mets fans who are irate about this deal, are fans who still view milledge like it’s early 2005
HEck yeah! This is the same guy we deemed untouchable in a trade for manny ramirez. MANNY! He was compared with Delmon Young for top prospect in the minors. Now, a couple years later, Young is traded for Matt Garza, and Milledge is traded for Church and Schneider. This is hugely disappointing.
but if he has very little trade value, and the Mets had soured on him, i guess it’s better to move on now than to wait and see…
How does this make sense? You’re justifying selling low? If we let Milledge play over the course of one season, he would put up his numbers and his stock would be back up again. This is definitely a win-now move, and I don’t like it one bit.
I think Omar is just sick of the Los Mets talk and this was a way to shut us all up.
LOL. I needed that laugh.
Give Omar the Wonter Meetigs at least – maybe this is a precursor.
I have to think that at least 50% of the fans on this site and at least 50% of the beat reporter guys who did not get their arses kissed by Lastings are delighted today. That group really wanted nothing to do with Lastings. Ithink they are a bit disappointed that he was not dealt for pitching but that group must be pleased today. Now they dont have to worry about him anymore and we get to watch the Nationals develop him into a star. Now they have at least 2 pieces to a team in their 3b and their CF (Lastings).
Never trade in the f’n division morons
The only thing I can say is WTF!!!??
You don’t trade someone for garbage because you don’t “like” the guy.
Doesn’t anyone realize that the winter meetings are next week and this trade was made on the weekday BEFORE they start? There HAS to be something more beyond this deal. Stayed tune…
In Omar we watch-and-wait-patiently-for-the-next-move.
Next week after another move made, you’ll all retract every comment about this deal. Of course IF it happens, but still.
It is simple to me: The Orioles DO NOT want Lastings Milledge to play CF for them. They actually PREFER Ryan Church, much like the Twins prefer Melkey and Coco (or like their names better)… The Expos are the type of team who want upside guys, whereas Church is a solid player where you know what you are getting, and getting it cheap.
How can you all be looking at this in a total vaccuum and NOT be excited that Erik Bedard is coming to Shea as a result of this deal?
believe it when i see it. i’m dumbfounded at the moment
When Omar completes that trade, I will compliment him. Although somehow I feel we will be short four or five young guys. So maybe I reserve judgment on that a little. On the other hand, if the Orioles prefer Church to Milledge, we should probably be able to steal Bedard.
Church only has 2 FULL seasons in MLB as an everyday player. His numbers are on the upswing and he is low-mileage. I’m willing to wait & see…
Cerrone. You have got to be kidding. Give me any shred of analysis how you can say Milledge should be traded and it is better to move on. Lastigs was TWENTY-TWO and produced as well as Church. Schneider is a replacement-level catcher and has no value whatsoever.
One of the worst trades I’ve seen in my years as a Met fan.
Blunder Number One
There are many teams that do not worship at the altar of clubhouse chemistry. some are even winners, like the 25-guys- 25-cabs-yankees. I agree that the veteran leadership on this club could do little for Milledge since their leadership sucks.
we have a bunch of toads on our club. Billy Wagner is a vet leader. Quiet Carlos B. is a leader? Delgado is a leader? Please. But I am a proponent of the theory that whoever gets the best player in the trade is the winner. And I also do not believe that anyone is overrated at age 22, Omar could have sent Washington less for Schneider, who is not a bad catcher, better than LoDuca. And forget the offense. What LoDuca produced was negligible. He did not have to send Milledge. Folks, Omar is dumb. Repeat after me: “Omar is dumb.”
Yeah, if his trade value is low, it’s definitely the time to trade him.
**shakes head**
im so pissed off about this trade. we trade a 22 yr old outfielder that has tremendous potential for a 31 yr old catcher and 29 yr old outfielder. Even if he doesn’t have trade value.. you have to keep him. I just think this trade is worthless. For the amount of time that Milledge has played.. i think he made a pretty big impression.. I’m disgusted
This trade just makes no sense. Apparently, our best prospect in 2006 has lost all his trade-value. For what reason? He showed a lot of promise in 2007 with great bat speed and great doubles power along with CARRYING the team in after the all-star break for a month. So for whatever reason his value dropped, it really isnt a good one. What more were the Mets expecting out of Milledge for his rookie seasson?
I like this deal. We inproved our defense at catcher. Church will match Milledges production in RF.
I’m not big on guys who make headlines away from baseball, unless it is for charitable work. I thought LoDuca’s days were numbered when he had his adulterous affair. Milledges rap record was probably his ticket to somewhere. Kris had Anna I think for the Wilpon’s, “no news is good news”
I was as surprised at this deal as anybody, and my original reaction was definitely of the “WTF?” variety, but the more I think about it, the more Iike it (or, at least, the less I hate it)… There seem to be two possibilities here:
1) This is a precursor to a different trade. This is a very good possibility, and the fact of the matter is that Church has substantially more trade value than Millz because he’s both a true CF and has proven himself over 347 games at the MLB level. All the teams we’re potentially dealing with for starting pitching need a CF and would be taking a risk with Gomez, who’s got tons of talent but is a very unfinished project. The O’s, the A’s and the Twins (and even the Pads is one wants to speculate there) all want a MLB-ready and predictably solid CF, and the Mets didn’t really have one before to give. Church, who is locked up for years and made $395, 000 last year, boosts our ability to trade for a starter immensely.
2) We end up keeping Church because that’s the plan or because the next part of a larger plan doesn’t work out. If we keep Church, we’re most likely to be better next year. Milledge may be great, but he will also certainly struggle mightily at times and possibly for much of the season in his first one as an everyday player. The odds of him being better than Church in 2008 are certainly lower than the odds of him being the same or worse. You can’t extrapolate his spot start and pinch-hitting stats over a whole season and/or simply expect such extrapolated stats to improve. Almost every young player struggles through their first full season as a starter, and his ABs over the last couple of years have mostly been in situations (pitching matchups, etc.) that were specifically favorable to him. Starting against every pitcher on the schedule is an entirely different thing. As for Schneider, many people here have called for a quality defensive catcher who handles a staff well. Schneider is one of the best catchers in baseball on both counts, so I don’t see how this isn’t a significant improvement over what we have now. The differential between his and Estrada’s defensive abilities is certainly far more impactful than the difference between their offensive abilities, especially given the firepower of the rest of the offense and the unproven nature of most of our pitching staff.
This certainly has the ability to come back and bite us in the future, but in both the short term and trade front, this definitely helps us more than it hurts.
Awful awful awful. I’m not even going to address how this deal at face value makes no sense. And if people think this is part of an effort to get Bedard, why not actually make a three team trade so you’re not left holding the crap lunch if no deal goes through???
I don’t get the facination with Erik Bedard ……. can someone please tell me why such a big deal? His numbers are comparable to Maine and Perez and he is not an ACE like Yohan…..as usual Mets fans already accepting second or third best.
I don’t get the fascination with Erik Bedard ……. can someone please tell me why such a big deal? His numbers are comparable to Maine and Perez and he is not an ACE like Yohan…..as usual Mets fans already accepting second or third best.
ATTN: MATT …… i agree with an earlier post … you defend every move this team makes
” and the Mets had soured on him, i guess it’s better to move on now than to wait and see…”
what a joke >>>> its ok to bash the team once in a while..
JESUS CHRIST …..
YES his trade value is way down… but still more than gomez … mike i look like im going to cry on the mound pelfrey, and anything this team has to offer for a front line pitcher
BYRON-T … have u watched BEDARD pitch? i would assume no … bcuz his stuff alone makes him the best pitcher on our team .. stop being obsessed with ERA and WINS … look deeper into his numbers and watch him pitch …. no hes not Johan, but he is a true ACE ….. the only thing that concerns me is his workload .. never thrown over 200 innings and NO we arent “settling” for second best… but i think we are realizing we only have the tools to DEAL for 2nd best :/
Here are Keith Law’s (ESPN) thoughts if anyone cares to read.
Nats score big with Milledge
posted: Friday, November 30, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry
filed under: New York Mets, Washington Nationals
Lastings Milledge is still one of the better young outfield prospects in the game. By dealing him for an awful player in Brian Schneider, the Mets sold low on a former first-round pick with a lot of upside and committed two years and too much money to a catcher who can’t hit.
The Mets get … nothing, or close to it. Schneider will earn $10.3 million over the next two years to sit behind the plate when the rules call for it, and to make 300-odd outs at the plate while hitting .230/.320/.330 or thereabouts. He is the definition of replacement level — his offensive production was roughly as valuable as what Guillermo Quiroz did in eleven plate appearances for Texas last year — and paying him $10 million is bad enough. Giving up something of value to acquire that contract is horrible. It would be better to pay Johnny Estrada $3-4 million to be bad for one year than Schneider over $10 million to be worse for two years.
There’s a small silver lining for the Mets in the acquisition of Ryan Church, a capable platoon bat in left or right field if you have a right-handed caddy for him. Unlike Schneider, he has value on a big league roster, but even swapping Milledge straight-up for Church wouldn’t make sense because of Church’s struggles against lefties, his long history of minor injuries, his age and his expense as a super-two player this winter.
Milledge could easily be the second-best hitter in the Nationals’ lineup in 2008, and moved back to his natural position of center field, he gives them two plus defenders on the field as well. Milledge has quick wrists with line-drive power, and good plate coverage. His pitch recognition is weak right now, and he’s vulnerable to anyone who can change speeds. This wasn’t as much of a problem for him in the minors, so there’s reason to expect an improvement. He played mostly right field in the majors for the Mets and never adjusted to the different looks a fielder gets from that position, but in center field, he has plus range and an above-average arm. He’s probably not a star, but he projects as an above-average bat who plays a good defensive center field, and Washington has his rights for the next five years. Milledge’s value was down due to some concerns over his attitude, but those were really overblown, and Washington just picked up a good prospect for about 20 cents on the dollar.
The only way this deal doesn’t turn out to be a disaster for the Mets — second in this decade only to the Victor Zambrano-Scott Kazmir deal — is if Milledge doesn’t pan out as a hitter, and the smart money is that he will. This is a heist for Washington, and a serious mismanagement of assets for the Mets.
I don’t like this trade one bit. I think that if Omar wants to go out and get his ex players then maybe he should go and look for a job with the Nats. Or else try and bring in the good ones. Did I hear Vlad? I realize that Lastings has lost some of his luster to many of the teams in the majors regarding his value. However, that doesn’t mean you trade him for a bag of balls and a bat. I understand that Schiender is an very talented defensive catcher but his bat is very undesirable. He is career .252 hitter. “Defensive does win championship” I know the cliche but offensive is part of the game as well.
Ryan Church has put up a career .272 avg with 35 HR 12SB’s and 153 RBI. Milledege could and at one point, according to scouts and other mlb personnel, he will put up those number in one season. Maybe not the RBI total but certainly the others.
I hope Omar has some sort of plan for this team going into this upcoming season. Last year was a complete disappointment to say the least. Things in this off season are not looking any brighter as of right now. Granted we brought back a very solid second basemen but for, in my opinion, too many years on those knees. Castro, Anderson, and Easley are also nice to have back but pitching is a necessity. This team’s bullpen fell apart last year. The starting rotation is getting and and has inconsistencies with it’s youth. The lineup at times seemed to coast through and the result was a collapse and a second place finish with no place in the playoffs. Damn shame for a team with all that talent. In Omar We Trust? I may not be that way if things in the borrow of Queens doesn’t improve.
just heard Omar on wfan…yup I can absolutely say with %100 confidence that he is on CRACK.
i think OMAR may be delusional ….
Schneider is coming off a great season?
Church has more potential if given a bigger role?
….430 at bats? if hes so good, y would the offensively anemic (possible spelling mistake) washington NATS give him a full 600 at bats and play him every day?
OMAr looks seriously delusional in his assesment of these 2 players… cmon!
Milledge is a plus defender? He looked as if he needed a map sometimes in the outfield. And while he has amazingly quick wrists, he has trouble with anything that’s not a fastball.
I like Milledge and wish him well, but let’s just see how this plays out.
The only thing that honks me off a bit in this scenario is the irony of letting the Nats pluck Jesus Flores from our system, only to wind up with Schneider, who I think will be fine.
Oh, and before I get flamed for implicitly saying that it’s all right to think that. It’s not–I’m Jewish. But I’m sure lots of ballplayers think it, as that’s gospel for many. But to come out and say it to the press? That’s another thing.