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…i believe the Mets will eventually regret trading Lastings Milledge, because, while he has his flaws, i feel he can be the type of exciting, better-than-average player a team in new york will wish it had…frankly, i suspect the Mets know they’ll regret it…that being said, i am 
okay with this trade, and understand why it was made…
…yet, most fans are reacting to this deal in a very extreme way, as though the Mets just traded Jose Reyes and David Wright for my grandmother…and again, i’m a fan of milledges, and have defended him a lot on this blog…but, i’m reading fan-generated headlines like, ‘Another black friday,’ and ‘I feel betrayed,’ and likening this deal to Scott Kazmir, which is surprising to me…
Minaya, during his conference call yesterday…
“I’m not worried. I’ve been through this before when we traded Kris Benson. Fans couldn’t quite understand that at the time. When you’re the general manager, you do take that into account, but you’ve got to understand when you’re in my job, there are certain things, decisions have to be made. The beauty of our sport, a lot of people follow our game, they follow our moves. When we traded Kris Benson, a lot of fans didn’t understand that at the time, but here we are with John Maine today.”
As Mark Healey writes at Gotham Baseball Magazine, ‘The reality is that Minaya didn’t have room on his roster for a .280 hitter with limited power and a reputation for annoying his teammates and manager.’
…fans are crucifying omar for not valuing milledge properly, and for giving up on him too early, at 23 years old, yet he did not trade him for Barry Zito, Manny Ramirez, and who knows who else, over the last two seasons, because the Mets and minaya had faith that milledge would develop, i.e., they stuck with him, despite having several chances to trade him for quality, proven talent…the Mets believed that milledge would blossom…and he still may…they’re just not going to wait around any longer to see, which is a new philosophy among the league’s younger GMs, i.e., cut bait after early signs of failure, i guess…
…from what i can gather, the Mets determined that, considering there is tremendous pressure to win this coming season, it was not worth gambling on milledge, who has yet to develop at the rate the team had hoped he would develop…it appears that they still have a lot of concern about a) milledge’s inability to lay off the breaking ball, which he has a hard time hitting, b) his instincts, at the plate, on the base paths and especially in the field, c) the rap album, a strong on-field ego, a casual work ethic, etc, and d) his health, since he had suffered a serious injury during three of the last four seasons…
…frankly, i sense that milledge sealed his fate when he got ejected for three games in the middle of the pennant race last season for arguing with the umpire, and then helped instigate an on-field fight during the last two days of the season, by flipping his bat and jogging after a home run, when the team should have only been focused on winning…
…personally, i feel a lot of the above concerns can be chalked up to his age and inexperience…i assume he will grow beyond this in the years to come…frankly, i like the entertainment, so, while i hope he grows up, i also hope he stays true to who he is because it’s fun to watch…also, for what it’s worth, i think omar feels the same way, but he just can’t wait any longer, considering the pressure to win right now…
…so, in return for milledge, who the Mets apparently wanted to move, but who could not return any sort of pitcher in a trade, instead, the Mets acquired a 29–year-old, under-contract outfielder, who has a strong arm, good instincts, has had some consistent success in the majors, can hit a ton of doubles, bats lefty and hits righties; and they also acquired a stable, 31–year-old, every-day catcher with experience leading a young pitching staff and who is known for his defense and throwing out runners at second…
…it’s not the ideal trade, obviously…the thing is, i think i feel this way because, in my mind, milledge is still worthy of zito, or manny, or Dan Haren, since that is how he had been framed over the last few seasons…the fact is, though, he is no longer able to return that type of pitcher, or any type of pitcher, it would seem…
…so, since i do not have a time machine, the question i am left with is, should the Mets have traded milledge now or would they have been better served just keeping him and hoping he developed in to an all-star…personally, i’m not comfortable making that assessment, since i never claim to be a scout or Nostradamus…i know some bloggers, reporters and fans believe they are smarter than the professionals, but i have never been one to make that leap…i mean, if i was that smart i would be a scout, not a blogger, i suppose…and so, the Mets determined it was time to move milledge, which, like i said, i think they’ll come to regret…for now, though, given their current needs, i can understand why the move was made, even though i am totally happy about it…
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Omar’s only mistake was not going far enough. He should have traded Wright for Zimmerman.
I’m joking, of course; but he could have tried for Patterson or Cordero.
I don’t know, mein host, this “incredible pressure to win ” in NY would not send me scurrying for the likes of Brian Schneider and Ryan Churchmouse. Sounds like Mets spin to me.
Unless one or both of these guys are spun around for a front-line pitcher, this is a terrible move. Congratulations on your new front office position with the team, Matt.
He said he wasn’t really happy with the trade. Just because he understands it, doesn’t mean he is agreeing with it.
Geez. You guys are jackoffs.
see, this is just a pathetic fan response, way too emotional and not understanding reality. Face the facts man, Milledge would not have brought back a pitcher, and guess what, if he would have, you would have seen him traded for one. that’s the point here, Milledge was not sought after in moves for impact pitchers, so what do you do with him?
Well based on what Church and Schneider are likely to give you given their history, I think the best option then would have been to just keep Milledge and let him play RF.
I think it is reasonable to think he can give you about what Church does on offense in 2007. At best, he could have contiuned to progress as a hitter on the ML level and either cemented himself as the RFer for this team or increased this percieved trade value.
The kid has less than 400 ML at bats, so I think it’s a bit premature to proclaim him as some sort of disappointment or as a player in arrested development as some people in the media are doing. His offensive production is pretty good for a person getting his first real chance to play.
The bottom line is the Mets sold low here. And any way you cut it, they gave up on the kid at the worst possible time in terms of his value.
you keep him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the reason this trade is so awful is if milledge plays the way he played in his time in the bigs then this trade will probably be a wash but we are the ones who gave up all the potential
milledge has a shot at being a superstar , best case scenario this trade slightly works out in our favor , worst case scenario it is a absolute disaster, y do that??!?!?!? y not just keep him if he busts then we don’t get anything for him we basically got very little for him anyway ughhhhhh i hate this move
Actually according to Ken Ros. from foxsports told Neer on WFan that one GM would give a pitcher from Milledge. What type no idea though. He also said one GM buckle at the trade. Therefore this trade was bad. IKen said also that mets will get Capp from Brewers, Lerwy from SF with the prospects that Mets got and more likely not A’s or O’s for their pitchers.
I cannot tell you if that is true but at least this trade is sounding worse a day after.
rosenthal digs for ways to insult the mets.. I wouldn’t trust a word of it.
what position does Matt have with the front office?
Apparently, he is the CSO, Chief Spin Officer.
Even as the one who used the “Another Black Friday” heading for their LM post, I don’t think you all should confuse Cerrone’s attempt to be evenhanded with “spin.”If you want outrage, you can check out nearly every other major Mets blog.
No, real spin is Omar’s ridiculous and insulting Kris Benson justification. There is only one person I can think of who was overly upset with that trade, and she plays poker, sprays on tan, and digs for gold.
My opinion is that Omar is seeming more like a GM who is either in over his head, trades for the sake of trading, or just plain doesn’t know how to manage the teams’ meager farm assets. Of course he has done a fine job signing big ticket items and on numerous reclaimation projects. But if you ain’t getting a bit concerned, you ain’t paying attention.
Well said, Matt. I totally agree.
It’s understandable, but could be a huge regret eventually.
Oddly enough, when people were proposing trades this time around, and Milledge was included, I just thought that it wouldn’t be enough. 18 mos, 2 yrs ago, I thought the hype was enough to pull in more, but now, the hype has died down and Milledge is what he is. A decent outfielder with some above average tools who has yet to put it together. Will he? Maybe. Maybe not.
Just think if the Wilpons stepped up and signed Hernandez instead of trading Petit and others for LoDuca. Just think what the Mets could have got for trading Milledge, and Petit two years ago!
Petit, Jacobs and Psomas were thrown away so we could have the privilege of paying $15M/year for Delgado to pile up LOB and be bored. Another brilliant Minaya move.
They were prospects my friend. It’s hard to project what they will do. Also, you can’t blame someone for actually trying out their prospects. You wouldn’t have done a better job back then. You’d criticize Omar.
The fact is, if the Mets just traded their top minor league prospects for proven players all the time, they’d be under the Sabean philosophy. Look at the Giants now.
Prospect handling is politics.
There are guys that want to keep them and work them slowly.
Some want to keep them and challenge them.
Some want to trade them away to get older all stars past their prime.
It’s all politics. I happen to agree with Minaya’s line of thinking.
I think this is the crux of the trade. Omar could no longer wait for Milledge to improve, especially not after how last season ended. He needs a player in RF that will contribute to winning, in more ways than just hitting a fastball. Knowing that this trade happened, should Omar have traded him a year ago? 2 years ago? Of course. No one wanted his value to drop this much, we all want Milledge’s value to be big enough to bring back an impact pitcher, but that’s just not true anymore, and of course, hindsight is 20/20. But at this point, and its the arguement many of you have made, what do you do with him? Keep him around so his value can go back up? By what? playing him in RF? That’s why we traded him, because we’re in a position we’re we can’t wait for him to improve or hope he improves.
Darksy, you know I hate to accuse you of boosterism, but your reaction to this trade doesn’t change my mind much. It leaves me curious as to what it would take for you to criticize Met management in any shape or form.
The main mystery I’d say is why trade a cost effective, homegrown, skilled player with a high ceiling who had a decent year unless you were filling a major need (most agree that a top of the line starter is such a need). Lets leave aside getting older and more expensive on a team that already lacks nothing in these categories. If Omar was willing to wait for him to improve in past years, not trading him for players that would infinitely help the Mets (Manny, etc.), why would he suddenly change his mind and impatiently dump him? You seem to think that the big collapse changed the rules so Omar couldn’t “wait”–but which kind of GM do you like, one that makes panic moves or one that weathers the storm to make the best longterm decisions for his club? I submit the later kind of GM is the one I’d prefer. This goes for the “PR” argument for trading LM too. In a NY media environment anyone who moves a player for public relations reasons is a damn fool (this holds true even if you are not trading “problem” player for Ryan Church).
Are you of the opinion that Milledge’s early performance lacked for a young player? If that’s your reasoning, I just don’t agree. How being unable to hit a curveball in his first two seasons (like Jose reyes or occasionally, carlos beltran) qualifies LM as a disappointment is beyond my understanding.
There was no defensible reason to trade LM for anything less than to fill a pressing need, certainly not for the older outfielder and another offensive blackhole of a catcher (and his monumental contract) of a last place team in your own division. And since it seems that wasn’t possible to get the kind of pitcher you want, you don’t trade him. How is it not that simple?
it all depends on what you define as needs for a team and also depends on how you want to fill those needs. This team did need a catcher and we needed a RF, unless of course you thought Milledge could fit into this team and be an everyday RF and help us win. Would I have rather got back pitching in this deal? Yeah, that’s our main concern, but at the same time, its ovboius Milledge’s value is down, and like I said, I’m not sure the Mets can afford to let his value rise while he plays everyday in RF, what if that doesn’t work? Will Lastings become a good player? yeah, he very well could, but my assesment is this trade was made because the MEts could not afford to wait. Now, do i fall on the side of a GM who would hold onto his players and let them develop? You bet. I’m not a “win not at all costs” kind of fan. However, I understand why Omar made this move and see how it will play into making us a better ballclub next year. In the end, we’ll have to see how a. we do next year and b. how Milledge does down the road, to fully assess this trade (but i guess that’s kind of obvious). Now, I’m not saying I love this trade, I’m just trying to show people the light of WHY (in my meager opinion) it was made.
Likening this to Kazmir is silly. Kazmir was a more highly regarded prospect and good pitchers are harder to get. Both Church and Schneider are more highly regarded than Zambrano was at the time, and neither are damaged goods either.
Having said that I can’t believe Omar compared this deal to Benson-Julio. Not only does he fail to mention that Maine was an afterthought who was only included in the trade after many bashed Omar for just getting Julio back, but Benson’s value was not as high as Milledge’s. Mets fans were not enamored of Benson the way they were with Milledge, and Benson could not get to the next level with the Mets the way they thought he would when they traded for him. Benson also had serious stamina issues and couldn’t last down the stretch.
For all the people who are insisting this is a bad trade because we didn’t get a pitcher in return, who would you have wanted to see Milledge traded for???? Don’t say Santana, Beddard or Haren because apparently Omar went that route and got no takers, so who is your catch????
first of all, the white sox would of traded a garland, or vasquez for milledge because they need a centerfielder, they may not be haren,bedard,or santana, but they’re better than the garabge they got from the nats.
Milledge alone would not have gotten Garland or Vazquez. Remember, Garland was traded for a proven gold glove shortstop who had more RBIs this year than Jose Reyes.
The other chips that it might have taken to get Garland are being held out in an attempt to get a pitcher better than Garland. I can’t fault Omar for targeting Santana, Bedard, and Haren instead.
Garland was already dealt by the time this deal was done,and what makes you so sure people are lined up to offer frontline pitchers for him???
Do you think Omar is saying no no we don’t want your pitcher for him we want your RF’er and catcher??? The white sox may have needed a CF’er but still Cabrerra is a far better player than Milledge is so I can see why they would make that deal….
this was before garland was traded:
http://www.metsblog.com/2007/10/19/buzz-jon-garland-for-a-center-fielder/
my one problem with the trade is that lastings never really got his shot. he has has had two seasons with less than 200 at bats and i thought improved a lot from one to the other. to me, this is a deal that was made due solely to willie’s unwillingness to just let young guys play. i know he had his injuries and the suspension last year, but what killed the mets season last year was a bottom of the order of delgado-loduca-green-pitcher that had zero pop and zero speed. 4 batters in a row could pretty much be chalked up for a single or an out (i feel like delgado had a little hr run in september but nothing special). and if they actually did find their way onto first base…it would have taken 3 hits to drive them in. i hated this. especially because one of those spots could have been filled by milledge who may have been young but could hit the ball into a gap and make something happen (not to mention that he was a defensive upgrade as well). im actually a fan of church and i think i like schneider but its just frustrating that it seems a lot of decisions were made about milledge simply because he didnt get his at bats.
well stated Matt — time will tell.. unfortunately, Omar and the Mets dont have the luxury of rolling the dice in 2008 on Milledge.
I think his antics in the final weeks of the season doomed him with Willie and Omar.
jim bowden was just on the fan with chris russo. he really sung the praises of brian schneider, saying things like he’s a great character guy, great in the clubhouse and in the community, adding that he’s one of, if not the, best game caller in the league, and that the mets pitching staff is immediately better with him behind the dish.
if omar/fans project milledge as a .280/25/90 guy with 15 steals in 600 ABs, which seems reasonable, then is he that much better than church who figures to be a .270/18/80 guy with 10 steals, 40 doubles, a much higher OBP, and better defense?
PLUS, you apparently get a guy that will make all 11 of your pitchers better immediately. sounds like a good deal to me. i’m liking this trade better and better as time goes on.
for this deal to be a bust, milledge would have to turn into a .315/35/115 guy (basically miguel cabrera) within the next 3 years, which seems unlikely.
That’s the MOST telling sign of a steal- the perp makes it out to be a ‘fair exchange’. If the Nationals broadcast how stupid we were, other GM’s will be reluctant to trade with them. They are getting ‘brownie points’ for not hanging Omar out to dry in the media.
yup, its like in my fantasy leagues when i take someone i have to convince all the other gms in the league that it wasn’t that bad a steal so they don’t vote it down
Like Bowdon is going to chuckle and say Church and Schneider suck. Of course they are great and he did us a favor.
Church is a good hitter.
Lastings could be.
Schneider is the type of guy we need.
If Milledge is a superstar, and we get an ace for Gomez, etc. and win the World Series I really would consider this a good trade.
There are really numerous questions:
(i) with respect to next year, are the Mets better off (1) without Lo Duca and Milledge (or a FA) in right field, or (2) with Schneider at catcher, Church in RF and Milledge no longer on the bench.
I still think Lo Duca is better than Schneider despite the age issue. And as discussed below, I think that Milledge numbers would only get better, not worse.
(ii) Should Milledge have been traded now?
His value was at an all time low. He had bad luck last year – first, the Mets chose to play Greene (who had a high $$$ contract) over Milledge (sure Greene had the hotter bat early, but Milledge was not playing poorly) and second, he got injured. This kid is an athlete, and had all the look of being an above-average player. Sure he had lapses in the field and at the plate, but he is so young. His offense numbers were not that bad. Obviously, the Mets did not trade him 18 months ago so they felt he had great potential. I just do not think the Mets gave him a chance. I think it would have been better to play him for a year and see how he produced. I liked the energy he brought to the team.
(iii) what the Mets don’t get.
They want to give us a championship NOW. Maybe I am different, sure I want a championship, but I want it with a team that I love and with players I am comfortable with- meaning real Mets, not renta-players. Getting Schneider is not like getting Gary Carter. If we win in 2008, it will be great, but I can see myself thinking that we could have done it with (and I would have preferred it be done with) Lo Duca behind the plate and Milledge in the mix. Sure Lo Duca was only here a couple of years, and sure maybe Schneider and Church will become fan favorites in such a short time period, but that odds are that these players were be average at best and do little to be remembered.
(iv) Long term.
Odds are the Mets wont win in 2008. If the Mets do not win then what? If Milledge was on the team at a minimum his value would be slight higher (because I can not see him digressing, plus likely he would be healthy for a year and so teams could see him for an entire season). If the Mets do not win, we are back where we are today still scratching our head, but this time with Schneider and Church, and without a trading chip like Milledge.
Sure we have Wright and Reyes, but I want more home grown talend to root for. Milledge should have been given a great shot. I would not have been unhappy if the Mets traded Milledge for something for next year and well beyond, but that is not what we got here.
And finally, if we truly are trading for a top notch pitcher, it will probably require another OF prospect. If Gomez has to go, then what do we have left on the farm? FMart is still a few years away, but his he better tham Gomez?
I was hoping that Gomez could be retained and that Milledge would be traded for a pitcher. Not we know that Gomez is a goner as well, and maybe that point, even more than Milledge going, upsets me the most.
For many, many reasons I think this trade is terrible.
See, I just don’t think it’s fair to assume that Milledge would turn out to be an above average player. You can’t just assume he will. Sure, I think he will, and a lot of us think he will, but I also thought Victor Diaz would turn into a decent LF one day.
No one is thinking about what happens if Milledge bombed next season. Or what if he didn’t bomb, but showed himself to be just average? Then you’re not even getting Ryan Church and Schneider for him at that point.
Ryan Church is an above average OF right now.
Sure, LoDuca is a better hitter than Schneider, but it’s not like we’re letting Mike Piazza or Pudge walk. LoDuca has a career OPS+ of 99, below average, and is entering his age 36 season. He was an above average hitting catcher for most of his career, but his offensive prowess is largely overstated. He really had no power and all of his value was from his high batting average and the fact that he was “tough to strikeout.” In no way am I trying to say Schneider is an offensive force, but I’m just trying to show you that we’re not losing an essential cog in the offense in LoDuca.
Here are some thing to consider when discussing Milledge’s former value.
First, do we know the Mets “held” onto Lastings? If memory serves, both the Manny and Oswalt trades kind of fell apart. I think Boston balked at dealing Manny for Milledge. Regardless of what Milledge’s value was at the time, he wasn’t worth Manny by himself. Manny is one of the best hitters of our generation. Milledge was going to be part of a package. Same with Oswalt. That was some crazy three team trade scenario that was killed because Baltimore got cold feet.
So let’s also not play revisionist historian here. Milledge was considered a top prospect, but it’s not like he was netting us Ramirez or Oswalt by himself. It was always going to take a package.
Also, the Mets are in a different place than they were back then. They’re a contending team built to win now. Wagner, Pedro, Duque, Alou, and Delgado are all older, and either in their last year or second to last year with the team. This move is made with an eye on this year and next. And contrary to popular belief, it doesn’t hurt the future all that much because we still have Gomez and Martinez in the pipeline and god knows how many other OFers in our baseball academy in the Caribbean.
Not to mention they already have Wright and Reyes as under 25 All Stars to go along with Beltran, and now Church, as a nice nucleus of players who are solid ballplayers in all facets of the game.
you’re making more and more sense squad..
magic – this team is built to win NOW.. we have depth in outfield prospects — Fernando is valued higher and Gomez is valued higher as a prospect.
Beside, MIlledge is most likely not going to be a 320/35 BA/HR Guy.
To say you want to win with OUR players is sort of silly. Im not making a direct compare but think of Ray Knight in 1986
If we get another pitcher and compete in 08/09 I can guarantee you’ll be cheering on Church or Schneider or whoever else is on the team.
Assuming the Milledge stays in DC for a few years…i think that the Kazmir reference in terms of how bad this deal was won’t happen. RFK just depresses so many offensive power number stats that it is unlikely that he hits even 20 hrs next year. Further, with a lineup as bad as theirs is, he won’t have the opportunities to drive in runs to the extent he would in another park and on another team.
Milledge won’t look as good in DC as he would in say Florida (with alot of RBI opportunities) and in say Philly where balls fly out of the park with great regularity.
Churchs numbers conversely are likely to exceed last years numbers if only a little due to the fact he will be hitting in a better lineup and will have a more fair field to play his home games in . I’d expect him to hit 20 hrs and drive in 85 rbi next seasobn.
HE WILL BE XAVIER NADY FOR US EXCEPT THE LEFT HANDED VERSION.
well, thenew stadium comes on line this year I think, so RFK is a moot point.
Squad you make a good point about “holding on” to LM which almost makes up for your previous comments about overvaluing Vic Diaz (Diaz never in same category as LM) or Church being solidly more than a 4th OF (my understanding is that Church had a hard time cracking the Gnats lineup).
But having Gomez (far away and probably trade bait in the next few months) and Martinez (very far away) and “god knows” how many academy outfielders doesn’t go to far in justifying this trade. And I don’t remember any interviews where Omar states he is all about winning now with no regards for building a strong future, though I do remember comments to the opposite effect.
I am not sure that I read this properly, but did Matt really post that he believes that Milledge is still worthy of being traded for Manny Ramirez, Barry Zito, or Danny Haren? Umm…
If the Mets really had the chance to trade Milledge for Manny at any point they should have done it. If that deal was ever a possibility and the Mets didn’t take it, then they just blew it.
There is no way that Milledge is currently worthy of being traded for Manny Ramirez or Danny Haren.
No way.
frankly, i sense that milledge sealed his fate when he got ejected for three games in the middle of the pennant race last season for arguing with the umpire, and then helped instigate an on-field fight during the last two days of the season, by flipping his bat and jogging after a home run, when the team should have only been focused on winning…
So…..why the rush to resign Marlon Anderson, who did something equally stupid and got a 2 game suspension down the stretch? And Milledge instigated the fight? Huh. I thought that was Reyes standing on 3b and barking at the Marlins that did it.
Thank god they got rid of that clubhouse cancer. He was the reason the mets collapsed!
I hope Milledge sticks it to the Mets every single game this season
Marlon got suspended for throwing his helmet when he was near the dugout.. Milledge had to be physically restrained by Rickey from attacking the umpire – after he was already back in the dugout and ejected.
who do we platoon in RF with Church?
What the fans here appear not to understand is that the Mets have crossed the threshold that the Yanks & Sox have a while ago: that is they have the”Win Now” mentality.
So you really have a pardox. “Win Now” teams can only wait so long for a player to develop. It is simple: The Mets took a gamble 18 months/2 years ago NOT to trade Millage in the hopes that he would mature and develop and they Lost! C’est la vie, it happens. Hindsight is 20/20, so you can’t Blame Omar for keeping a 21 year old phenom when his value was at it’s peak. If he knew his value was going to drop, i trust that Omar would have traded him. But he didn’t, and he lost his bet. It happens all the time in baseball.
However, with the injuries, the suspect defense, all the off-field & on-field incidents, & the fact that he is right handed and would never get the chance to play his natural position CF, I can understand this move Omar made under the “Win Now” philosophy for 2008.
We all need to get used to and understand this philosophy. The fans got a taste of sweet victory in ‘06 and we want more. But we can’t have our cake and eat it to. Millage has not played a full year in the Bigs and there really is no way to use his small sampling of numbers to predict superstardom or failure. One Church & Shnieder are more established players and based on a solid sampling of their numbers, we are a better team offensively and defensively in 2008. That all there is to it.
Good Luck L-millz. Things could have been differnet, but they weren’t.
Ps. It is also not fair to judge Omar until our team is set for 2008. Winter Meetings haven’t even started.
PPs. Remember, we have two first round picks next year as well. Outfielders are abundant and they can choose to get one with their picks. I personally think they should use them for pitching and only pitching.
Go METS!
Those 1st round picks will be wasted. They never go over slot, so expect some more useless middle relievers
Wasn’t Millage a first round pick in 2003?
And Pelfrey and Humber in the following years i believe.
One more thing
When the Yanks and Sox get the “win now” mentality, they go out and get a Josh Beckett, resign a Curt Schilling, resign an Arod, etc.
I don’t see them looking to acquire marginal pieces when they need big pieces.
The mets can’t compete with the big boys because they have a small mind attitude
Pedro Martinez & Carlos Betran = Small mind attitude?
mets are in “Win Now” mode because Pedro, Alou, Delgado and Wagner are long in the tooth.
X-nady with the perpetuation of the “win now” justification. Of course every team wants to win asap, but where has Omar ever said that the organizational philosophy he instituted was only to win now and not to build long term sucess? IMO this is a totally baseless rationalization on the part of some fans.
Second, unless you are in Omar’s extended family, please give this “its not fair to judge Omar until X happens” nonsense a rest. Yes it is fair to judge Omar.
Third, are you saying the Mets can just draft another outfielder to instantaneously plug into the line up with their first round picks? I don’t think you mean that.
I disagree with everything you said, so we make a perfect pair. Happy holidays.
BTW- For those of you singing Church’s praises….Milledge is as good as he is right now…..5 years younger and much more upside.
Horrible, stupid waste of assets
Really, Milledge is as good as him? How do we know this?
Church has proven over the course of a big league season that he is a solid, above average, MLB hitter and defender. Milledge has not.
Not saying Milledge won’t become one. Heck, I still believe Milledge probably will become better than Church eventually.
But let’s not distort the truth here.
not only is the media to blame for running milledge out of town,
but its willie that should take some hits as well. he contradicted
every thing ever talks about, “you’ve got to earn your playing
time.” so what does milledge do? he bulks up in the off-season,
competes with shawn green for the RF spot, out plays him in
every aspect of the game, only to have three at-bats in two
weeks. then gets hurt, plays in the minors, rakes there, comes
up, immediately provides a spark for this dead team. then for no
reason, he has to sit for the vets. then doesn’t even play for a
week after his suspension. how the hell was he going to
develop as a ballplayer. no young player will ever thrive on this
team with him as the manager. name one player that has been
successful ender randolph?(not counting wright or reyes, who
came up before he was manager).
It seems to me that the Orioles/A’s/Twins did not care to have Milledge in one of those deals. This shows that his stock has dropped. Minaya has traded one potentially good ballplayer for two proven commodities. We get a good defensive catcher (Estrada can be non-tendered) and a decent rightfielder.
While I still think Milledge could be a dynamite player, he might be a hot head. I’m not thrilled but i’m not fully against it. Church replaces Green, Schneider replaces LoDuca. Let’s see if we can get a pitcher…
If his stock fell that low……don’t trade him.
I hope Omar doesn’t invest his money this stupidly
This trade is indefensible.
If you listened to Omar Minaya on WFAN yesterday, then you know that he is not landing a front line starter for the 2008 season. That is why he is bringing in a guy with Schneider’s “reputation.” Think about it, Schneider makes young pitcher better according to Minaya, but the Mets aren’t after young pitchers (22-26), the Mets are after young proven starters (27-30), right??? So why is Schneider so important if a deal for Haren, Bedard, or Santana is right around the corner??
Schneider is important because Omar knows he can’t get a start, so he’s hoping Schneider can help Pelfrey, Humber, and/or Mulvey.
Omar Minaya is a FAILURE and a JOKE.
Schneider is here b/c Omar wasn’t buying into a platoon of Castro & Estrada. Estrada was a give away and no one wants him. He now has a solid every day Defensive catcher in Schneider.
Omar now has a catcher that can help his young pitchers which is an added benefit. This was not the only reason Schneider was acquired for.
Come on, folks. This trade makes about as much sense as Julia Roberts marrying Lyle Lovett. With respect to this latest move, remember that Omar put himself in a position of weakness by not protecting Flores. That set in motion a chain of events culminating in the Mlledge fire sale.
Omar has pulled off some very solid deals, but in all fairness, over the last two off-seasons the number of questionable and/or bad moves have mounted.
This is why the trade was made:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/Milledge-trade-will-not-come-back-to-haunt-Mets-;_ylt=A0WTeQv0i1FHNd4AtgOFCLcF?urn=mlb,55815
In Omar We Trust .
Omar sold Milledge at his lowest value
Rule #1 – NEVER sell low
And what’s all this “Omar could no longer wait for Milledge to improve” nonsense??? Since when is 22 years old too old to expect more improvement? Ridiculous
Milledge is a kid who was thrust into the bigs at a very tender age, yet he still came up with multiple clutch hits, made things happen when playing, and despite switching to brand new OF positions showed marked improvement defensively on the big league level
If Omar thinks the 29 yr old Church can give us more in ‘07 he’ll be proven wrong when Acta runs Stings out there everyday.
Church can’t hit lefties so despite what Omar sez right now he’s a platoon player for us
“no room for a .280 hitter with limited power” Huh??? Lastings’ power is only limited by his age. As he fills out he’ll gain more strength and power – btw, that’s straight out of scouting 101
This is a TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE trade
He sold him at his lowest value so far….previous value has nothing to do with this- if Lastings spends much of 2008 struggling to stay healthy or struggling against any pitcher who has a decent breaking pitch or happens to be right handed (and he’s had a lot of trouble with all of those things so far), then his value drops even lower.
Yes, Church can’t hit lefties. As noted above, Millz can’t hit righties. Doesn’t that seem like a bigger problem in a largely right-handed world?
And how has he been particularly “clutch”? His .224 Sept/Oct BA? His tiny .568 OPS in “late and close” situations?
I do think that Millz may be great some day, and that this trade may come back to haunt us later, but why pretend that he’s someone right now that he’s not?
rule number one should be minimize your risks
rule number two should be dont fall in love with your players
rule number three should be admit your mistakes and move on.
so milledge – in a package – MAY have brought something bigger two years ago. fact is no one ever bit on the deal.
Two years ago milledge was a 20 year old who could project to a 320 hitter with power. thats not true today.
The unspoken truth about this deal is that the Nats found Schneider expendable because they wanted to give Jesus Flores more playing time. We all remember Jesus Flores – the guy Omar left off the 40 man so he could protect Julio Franco! The fact is that Flores is already a better defensive catcher than Scheneider – his CERA was over half a run lower than Schneider’s, and he had a higher CS%. He’s at least as good as Schneider offensively right now (which isn’t saying much), and projects to be a much better hitter.
This deal sucks. In the immortal words of Rick Pitino, “it stinks, it sucks and it stinks”. In essence Omar trade his 2 best young positional players for an overpaid, offensively incompetent and aging catcher, and a decent RF, who is no better than Milledge is RIGHT NOW! And Church is as good as he’s going to get, Milledge is not. This is bungling of epic proportions.
As it currently stands, this is a 3rd place team. They will struggle mightily against lefties (both Church and Schneider are horrible against lefties, but I guess that’s OK, Schneider’s horrible against everybody). They are an Alou injury away from being a .500 team. I certainly hope that Omar has more up his sleeve (like spinning Schneider in a package that brings back Eric Bedard and Ramon Hernandez?), because if this is all we get, this team is not very good.
Letting Flores get away for zilch was a huge mistake. And I think he did pretty good with the Nats in ‘07 since he was a rookie. But the number of innings he caught (395) is too small a sample size to adequately compare with Schneider. CERA is one of the toughest stats to use to gauge the quality of a catcher. It’s valuable but be careful of using it to say that one catcher is better than another.
I wish the Mets still had Flores and would have loved to have seem him get playing time with the Mets this year.
a little side bar, while waiting for a more appropriate thread to post it in.
Omar should be looking for a more value oriented trade to get the NEXT Bedar/Haren “ace”. Not wildly overpay for the back side of the current one (Santana too).
Look at Ian Snell. He had quite a good year overall in 2007. Probably comparable to Maine.
It was also very similar to Bedard in 2006.
No guarantee that Snell leaps ahead like Bedard did in 2007, but it is possible. Also, Bedard could easily regress a bit from his career year.
BIgger point though, is look at Pelfrey in his brief career vs. these guys (before writing him off as a complete bust at 23).
Snell and Bedard had a brief look their first year, with nasty looking numbers. then a longer look in year 2 with some improvement. But, it wasn’t until about year 4 (there 2nd full season) that they really started to dominate.
I didn’t cut/paste all of the stats, sorry, but I saw this poking around on MLB.com last night.
Thank goodness we got a nice quiet guy like Ryan Church in place of Milledge who can’t keep his mouth shut. All Ryan Church did was say that all Jews are going to hell. But I guess that’s okay with Minaya.
Ryan Church was attained in order to protect Carlos Gomez. The Mets reportedly offered Lastings, Heilman, and Humber to Baltimore for Bedard, but were turned down. However, a deal like Church, Heilman, and Humber may be enough to get it done now.
Here is the link to back my information up:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/Milledge-trade-will-not-come-back-to-haunt-Mets-;_ylt=A0WTeQv0i1FHNd4AtgOFCLcF?urn=mlb,55815
Omar made this trade with the trade of a front-line starter in mind. Let’s reserve judgment and see what develops, before we grow skeptical.
gomez should be able to fetch us the RH half of our new RF platoon. I’m thinking gomez to the A’s for chris denorfia (27 y.o. RH utility OFer with 144 career ABs and 2 HRs) and dan johnson (1B depth hit .236 last year in 416 ABs with 18 HRs). this is the kind of deal we can expect now from omar: giving up a high-end prospect for no pitcher and a couple of low-ceiling nobodies. that way beane can save haren/blanton/etc for a team that understands ‘buy low/sell high’.
The actions of Omar and the entire Mets organization over the past two years have been unacceptable. They have no vision and no idea how to run an organization. I have been a strong Omar supported for the past year – even a few weeks ago I was strongly arguing with those who said he should be fired because of the weakness of the minor league staff. However, because of this one deal, I have completely flip-flopped my opinion. Looking back, it is clear this organization has no idea what it is doing.
The minor league system is the lifeblood of the system. Does that mean every player on their team has to come from the system? No. It could mean not a single player does.
What that means is that a team HAS to use its prospects to their fullest potential in order to field a winning team. That could mean developing them, overhyping them, and trading them for more than they’re worth. Heck, it could even mean trading them for equal value. Or, it could mean evaluating which players are worth keeping, and keeping them.
Where over the past few years have the Mets done a good job of managing the system? They have traded guys who could have helped the team – Lindsrom, Owens, Bell, Kazmir, MIlledge – for less value than they should have received. The point isn’t these player’s value at the time of the trade – it is the fact that the organization failed to utilize the players to their fullest potential. They made the decision to hold onto Milledge when his value was high, and clearly that was poor scouting and poor management. Milledge lost value, and even if that was Milledge’s fault, it’s still the Mets fault for not forseeing that.
Maybe Omar can stay. But until the Mets can find someone or a few people who understand how to manage the Minors, evaluate players, and maximize the value of their prospects, the Mets will never field a winning team year in and year out. You simply cannot win consistently without a strong minor league system to call up players from, or to trade from. This organization is lost.
Kazmir was traded by Duquette
When Bell was here, you all clamored for his release
So? I’m not making the decisions. And I’m not saying it’s only Omar, so I don’t care when the decision was made or by whom. It’s an organization wide problem.
I will be the first to gladly admit I was wrong if I clamor for a guy to be traded or held onto and they do the opposite and it proves right. However, over the past few years they have rarely made the right choice. When’s the last time they traded a prospect and got great value for him? They made the same decision as others regarding Bell and were wrong. That doesn’t make it OK. They’re the ones running this organization – they need to get it right, at least once in a while.
Defense is a key component to winning baseball games. Omar upgraded at Catcher and at Right Field in terms of defense. Church is a better defender in Right than Lastings.
Now… You have a great 1-2 combination at the top. You have potentially 120 homers and 350-400 RBI in the 3-6 holes. 7 hole is now improved offensively over what was there last year. Schneider/Castro platoon is easily .260/10/60 – again, an offensive improvement over last year.
SETTLE DOWN AND STOP THE NEGATIVITY.
You’re not understanding.
Even if these players have solid seasons for the Mets this year, the Mets still did not capitalize on MIlledge’s value. This is a trend that is hurting this team. The Mets will still need a catcher in a couple of years, because they gave away Flores while protecting lesser players.
As a fan who roots for this team year in and out, I have to hope they have some sort of plan – not just for the year before Citifield, but for the next 5 years. They’e not showing me anything. I’m not gonna jump for joy cause they possibly, might have slightly improved at two positions which were not really probelms, for this one season.
“Defense is a key component to winning baseball games. Omar upgraded at Catcher and at Right Field in terms of defense. Church is a better defender in Right than Lastings”
Yeah, because the Mets choked last season due to defense in RF and C. The SP and RP was awesome!
If you made a list of offseason needs to address, defense was so far down it couldn’t be seen.
Schndier hits .235. He better throw out 75% of runners to make a difference.
Heck, where was all this love for defense when Shawn Green was bellyflopping around in the LCS and letting everything bounce past him?
You don’t think defense at C makes a big difference to a team’s pitching? If you know your catcher is going to block the plate well and that he doesn’t have a reputation as having a particularly weak arm, it allows the pitchers to focus more on just making their pitches, which is particularly important for a younger staff like ours with at least Maine and Perez if not one or more of Pelfrey, Humber, and Mulvey (or a trade acquisition) as well.
As far as Schneider’s hitting goes, people keep acting as if we suddenly have some sort of huge loss of offense. Do you really see a huge offensive upgrade out there readily available? Schneider’s OBP last year was .326 to Paulie’s .311. Paulie hit for more power (.378 to .336 SLG), and it’s enough to say that he was somewhat of a better hitter, but I don’t see the huge drop-off here, whereas there is a huge difference in defense. Schneider’s also four years younger than Paulie (an eternity for catchers in their 30s), and was actually a better hitter last year than in 2006, whereas Paulie’s numbers declined considerably. There’s a reason that his best option so far looks like signing a one-year deal to play beside Zaun in Toronto- it’s not like any other team sees him as legit starting option either. Is Schneider some sort of stud catcher? No- but I don’t see one out there, and he’s a clear significant improvement over Estrada or LoDuca.
So you guys don’t want to give up youth, but Omar keeping (thus far) Gomez, FMart, Mulvey, Guerra, Pelfrey, Humber, et al is a bad thing?
If he trades young guys for a proven starter, then he’s gutting the system. If he doesn’t trade young guys and let’s the youth stay, then he failed.
Seems as if he can’t win here.
He needs to evaluate players and choose the correct ones to trade, and the correct ones to keep. If he’s gonna trade a guy, he should trade him at his high point, not his low. It’s not only his fault – it’s scouts and the rest of the organization too.
No team shoud have a mantra that they will trade all their prospects, or that they won’t trade any. They need to evaluate their players. The Mets are terrible at this.
The Mets had a lot of help driving down Milledge’s value. Russo–Mr. Know it all base on no info–knocked Milledge relentlessly, especially over the last few weeks. Kept up a running mantra how he couldn’t believe that any other team would be interested in this kid as a player. The dog loves to run down the Mets and any of their players who has any issue at all, making them seem like second comings of Hannibal Lector.
And another thing, maybe this is the price for bringing up talent in NYC. There’s a massive number of commentators who never let go of any issue, however small, regarding these young players. If Bannister had stayed he might have been raked over the coals too, but he goes to the outback of Kansas City where he can develop in peace. You have to be extremely talented (Jose Reyes) and/ or be a natural in the limelight (David Wright) to handle it here. Too bad.
Omar “can’t win” because he tradd youth for garbage. If he traded youth for GOOD TALENT we’d be very happy
Great article by Joel Sherman today in the NY Post. Echos my thoughts exactly.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12012007/sports/mets/deal_edges_on_insanity_285290.htm?page=1
I trust in Omar. I like the job he is doing.I just hope he can keep developing our farm system. That will keep us a winner for years to come. Win now but don’t trade away the future. It’s a tough balancing act.
Funny thing about the future…it never gets here.
See: Isringhausen, Pulsipher, Jefferies, Hurdle
The two the Mets held on to: Straw and Doc — ultimately, sad wastes of talent.
Hundley was a keeper, as is Wright; book still out on Reyes.
You know, Church’s career stats are a bit better than Melky and Coco Crisp (lots more power), who the Yanks and BoSox are dangling, respectively. Maybe include Pelfrey and Ahern as other principals–perhaps more–and Mets have a shot at offsetting Lester, Hughes, etc. for Santana.
Trading Church for a pitcher is the only chance Omar has in getting me down from the ledge. Anything less and I stant by the fact that this organization has no focus other than to field a good enough team each year to sell 3.5 million tickets.
And doing that is an improvement over the previous GM’s performance. Being competitive has always been a provlem for the Mets (think the ’90s, etc). If they’re competitive every year, that’s a bad thing? What are we here, Yankee fans, only happy if we’re going to win the WS every year? Be unhappy about the trade, but I’ve enjoyed the last three years (okay the last week of the season was a heartache) as much as any time I was a Met fan.
Once again, you [most] show how stupid Mets “Fans” [using that term losely] can be. This has the the John Maine trade, written all over it, and it DOES favor the Mets.
Lets get real, LMilz, as talented as he is, showed enough last year to make even Beane not want to touch him with a 10 foot pole. No team, that we have heard is asking for this guy. He has a world of talent, as do a lot of players that fall wayward. He has several major flaws, I know this, and I was a LMilz supporter. Facts are-he stinks against righties, struggled in the corner OF spots, had difficulties with cutoff throws, lacked plate and basepath discipline, had a very long swing which was mechanically flawed, pissed off his teammates[very quickly], was a PR nightmare, a headcase, cant hit an outside fastball or a changeup, and all this at 22 years old. Putting that in perspective, he is raw, with a chance to succeed. He is Mike Pelfrey, who both may or may not pan out. But a + SP has more value than a + OF.
He is a victim of his own “success”. His stint in the majors yielded mixed results and it killed his stock. Yes, he is 22 years old, as is Delmon Young. Delmon Young came, saw, conquered last year, where LMilz survived. He is not an average 22 y/o, bc he skipped college. He has been playing proball for 4 years now and is still lacking some basic skills.
For the Mets, keeping him made little sense. We are in a WIN NOW mode, not only bc we are in NY, but bc we have a few key guys in their last year [pedro, el duque, delgado, + alou]. Bringing in Church is having a contact LEFTY hitter, that hits gaps, has a little pop, and plays excellent D, his career .800 OPS isnt bad either!! No doubt LMilz has a higher ceiling but, consider this, LMilz will probably not produce as much as Church this year, Lmilz and Church have similar amounts of time in the minors[2 years difference and timeoff for injs], Lmilz is under control for 5 and church for 3. Scouts and GM’s seemed to have found flaws in LMilz and dont think he is worth the gamble. There is very little gamble in Church, say what you will, but a lot of scouts are saying he is very underrated. Church has had success over 2 full years, where Lmilz has struggled and will not be able to contribute as much this year. Lets not forget the addition of a great defensive catcher is invaluable, plus, he kills righties [and lefties kill him] and has pop, and castro kills lefties…so its a nice platoon.
Here are the #’s
Ryan Church
MLB-997ab .271avg ,35 hr,153rbi,12sb,.348obp,.462 slg,.810ops
Minors-2120ab .292avg ,93hr,399rbi,31sb,.375obp,.506 slg,.881ops
LMilz
MLB-350ab .251avg ,11 hr,51rbi,4sb,.348obp,.462 slg,.740ops
Minors-307ab .305avg ,34 hr,163rbi,79sb,.385obp,.479 slg, .864ops
There is a lot to say of solid, consistant production vs potential, especially when there is a lot of “potential Gomez + Fmart..
This is a killer to the EGO of a fan bc we thought he is the answer to RF, which he wasnt, or that he would net a big SP, which we tried and couldnt. Might as well make the team better with trading him. I do think we should have pushed for a RP, but it may not have been in the cards.
Good, sneaky trade OMAR…Lets see what happens from here.
Lets not forget, Church has a very high career OPS [.800] and MLB experience/success…this is the kind of stuff GM’s are seeking, even when the Mets fas feel church is less than LMilz.
Fact is teams like the twins, orioles, pirates, and A’s want prospects and cheap players, with MLB experience + success, and they sweat high OPS…hmm…could minaya be trying to avoid trading gomez/Fmart and flipping Church to get a SP, maybe a Blanton or Bedard or Snell????
If you were paying attention the last 2 years, most GM’s were asking about Church to play CF for all the above reasons, but the Nat’s price tag was an MLB ready SP. The kid is good, and is easily better than LMilz right now and for the forseeable future. Even if LMilz becomes as good as some Mets fans think, we still got 2 very good players to win NOW.
Lets not forget,…. he is 3rd on our depth chart of OF prospects, AS BOTH gomez and FMart are seen as higher ceiling, more likely to be OF studs, by both Mets brass, and around the league.
In that context….it makes very good sense.
finaly somebody with a brain. thank you for being a beam of light in this sea of madness.
what a bunch of bs. i could even get thru half your post cerrone. omar’s explanation was also effed. it made no sense.
this is terrible. oh, its not as bad as kazmir? fine, great. it still sucks. god damn it.
[P]ersonally, i’m not comfortable making that assessment, since i never claim to be a scout or Nostradamus…i know some bloggers, reporters and fans believe they are smarter than the professionals, but i have never been one to make that leap…i mean, if i was that smart i would be a scout, not a blogger, i suppose . . .
Does that mean that fans do not have the right to criticize the team they root for if they think a move the organization made is wrong?
Or that voters do not have a right to criticize the elected officials who represent them? After all, those politicians often have more formal education than the people they represent, right?
The problem here is not with an overreaction by fans or bloggers or whoever.
It is with the fact that fans of an organization are continually told, “Hey fanbase, get excited. We’re headed in the right direction. Forget the losing teams of the past. We have new, exciting, young players to change all that.”
Like a Paul Wilson, or a Pulsipher, or a Kazmir, or a MIlledge.
And then after getting the fanbase in a frenzy due to over-hyping its own prospects, the organization is not to expect a backlash from fans when the player they came to believe in and grew attached to(at the organization’s urging) is traded for marginal players at best? I disagree.
Criticism of those in power is essential to keeping everyone honest, whether it be in serious matters involving those handling real problems, or simply the people whose responsibility it is to fill the hole in the Met rotation.
Over the years if anything we have learned that both sets of people make mistakes just as frequently as the rest of us, and they shouldn’t be above criticism for doing so.
Yeah, but what everyone is doing here is like criticizing Bush one month into office.
We don’t even know how this trade will turn out, and none of the “critics” are even attempting to see this trade from the other view.
Somehow, the majority of MetsBloggers have become clairvoyant because they just know Milledge is going to turn into a stud.
And for those that aren’t so bold as to make that claim, they whine about trading Milledge at his lowest value.
No one considers that Milledge will just be an average player (or worse) or that his value could have dropped further.
I also think there is a skewed perspective of Milledge’s former value as well. He was NEVER getting us Ramirez, Oswalt, or a player of that ilk by himself. It was always as part of a package.
The fact is, he could become Hanley Ramirez or he could become Juan Encarnacion, or, even worse, he could become Quentin McCracken (remember him?)
You want to criticize? Go ahead an criticize. But at least attempt to see the possible outcomes of this trade. Don’t just be critical of it because you believe it was pre-ordained that Milledge will turn into Willie Mays.
(not you)
It’s more like criticizing Bush at mid-term elections.
This move was not done in a vacuum, but in conjunction with not bringing back Lo Duca(which is why they needed a catcher in the first place.
This has been a shaky off-season at-best for Minaya, so far.
Jesus — EVERYTHING is George Bush to some people. Stop. Smoking. Pot. It is making you paranoid. . . .
Anyway, OF COURSE you are free to criticize the deal — that’s a lot of what makes it fun to be a fan these days — but you do need some perspective, and realize that (1) not everyone on earth who knows about baseball doesn’t like the deal and (2) the people who made the deal have better information than you and know more about how to use it.
I just saw on MSNBC that Keith Olberman is blaming George Bush for this trade. Unbelievable.
How do you know that?
Go ask Pirates fans how all that information helped Dave Littlefield get robbed over and over.
Or what about Jim Duquette? Remember him? He was REAL GOOD at analyzing all that information, both here in New York, and in Baltimore.
Having access to more informationd does not equal better decisions being made.
Exactly. But you can at least acknowledge that there might be something we don’t know. I don’t think Matt was suggesting we withhold all opinions and blindly “trust the experts,” but, rather, that we need to acknowledge that they are, in fact, experts before calling for their heads — criticize, condemn, whatever, but reserve some judgment.
I think Matt’s take here is dead on — or at least it’s my take. If you think a guy is going to be great, you don’t trade him. You run the risk, however, of having him exposed — of losing the trade value — of course. That’s what they did here. The question is, did their own assessment change because other teams didn’t like Milledge, or were they simply perceived as desperate to get rid of him, for whatever reason. We can only conclude that Mets “baseball people” considered him more of a risk now than he was two years ago, i.e., the assessment changed with more data, and it was decided that Milledge had a lower ceiling than they had thought. Similar things happened to the Phillies with Marlon Byrd, and really happen with all sorts of prospects. They’re always iffy. Although these are not physically the self-same “baseball people” who assured Fred Wilpon that Victor Zambrano was among the premier power pitchers in the American League, time will tell if they might as well be.
The “we can still trade for a pitcher” line is a bit of a red herring, though. If the Orioles didn’t want him, that’s fine. The question becomes would it be be better to take a chance with him in right and Green and Chavez as insurance, or better to foreclose his development with the Mets and stick Ryan Church out there (and Schneider behind the plate.) In my personal, fan’s opinion (and Matt’s, apparently), the former makes more sense.
Incidentally, I live in DC, and the word I heard this morning was “steal,” as in, I can’t believe we got this guy for a couple of “replacement players.” That, and the fact that veterans may have played a part in forcing him out, do make this deal at least superficially Kazmir-like.
I apologize for being allergic to the question mark.
Also, one more point — there’s quite a bit we don’t know about Milledge, e.g., was he coachable? Were people trying to tinker with his swing and having him tell them to take a hike? We don’t like to speculate about these sorts of things, and he is young, but you have to think something like that may have come into play. Manny Acta will probably be able to reach him — they supposedly had a good relationship — but, for whatever reason (one of which is that he seems to distrust rookies and be generally aloof) Willie Randolph couldn’t.
In other news, I’d be a lot more confident going into next season with a manager who didn’t stand by with his hands folded while my team tanked. . . . Sorry, couldn’t keep that in.. . .
Amen, brother. Amen.
Cerrone, I appeciate your attempt to seem objective and fair-minded, but you have been drinking the Omar/Willie kool-aid for too long.
Ok, when Omar compares this to the Kris Benson trade a couple years ago, he is insulting our intelligence as fans. Benson was a known quantity, on the decline, owed a bunch of $, and Omar got younger guys with some talent (even Julio). Omar won that trade because he got younger, cheaper, and he got the most talented player with the most upside in Maine. This deal was basically the exact opposite of that one, because we traded the best player who also happened to be the cheapest and youngest guy in the deal. We got back a known quantity, on the decline, owed far more $ than he’s worth (Schneider) and a 29 yr. old, who while not a bad player in a vacuum is not even really an improvement over Milledge in the short run, and definitely not in the long run.
The only possible comparison between the two deals I can think of, is that Benson and Milledge might have both been traded away for “extracurricular” reasons.
Of course this is not as bad as the Kazmir deal, but to pretend that it is defensible is wrong.
So pretending to know the future is just fine and dandy, but being objective when viewing a trade, is indefensible?
If you objectively look at the trade then you asked to wonder, if Milledge is all of a sudden such a washed up, uncoachable prospect, why would the Nationals trade not one, but two players for him?
How good are those players if it took two of them to get back one Milledge?
Maybe next week Omar will realize that Schneider sucks too and trade Gomez for AJ Pierzynski.
Cerrone’s line about the younger GMs cutting bait on young players after early signs of failure is just so wrong, especially when applied to this deal:
a) Omar is not one of MLB’s younger GMs
b) Very few GMs (besides apparently Omar) have this philosophy. And thank god for that, because the Indians would not have been even a playoff team if they cut bait on Fausto Carmona after 06.
c) I don’t think Milledge failed last year. He was actually productive.
I agree with Matt and a few other comments here (darkstar, studs, etc).
I hate the Idea of giving up a 23 yr old who MAY be an all-star for 2 guys who are OK players, but lets be real. This isn’t as ridiculous as some are making it.
LoDuca was not coming back to this team. He wants a multi-year deal and is 36, his defense was weak, we wonder about his pitch calling, and his offense is over rated- no power, not a whole lotta walks. If they decide to keep Torrealba, or if Castro didn’t seem to be injury prone then Millz probably doesn’t get traded. Mets needed a catcher, and decided the priority would be for a good defensive catcher. Estrada was really an insurance policy and a Mota dump. Remember very few wanted him, no one really wanted Torrealba. Schneider is a lefty (so he fits well platoon wise with Castro), throws well, and has the reputation for calling good games. He’s not a good hitter, but he’s not Mike DiFelice either. He has a lifetime OPS of .700 (LoDuca is .752) The mets won a WS with Jerry Grote- you can win with a guy who is a defensive catcher.
Ryan Church will probably be similar to Millz this year, but he is a Lefty Hitter who could platoon with Gomez when needed. Millz had a rep of being a good defensive player, but how many of you remember his blunder in left at Fenway, and some of his misadventures at RF?
This is a trade for 2008 and 2009. If we were Red Sox and had a team with few holes, maybe we could have afforded to wait, but Mets don’t feel that they can.
Finally, where was all this love for Lastings during the season? Many of the same people bemoaning this trade referred to him as a thug during the season.
Again, its not something I woulda done, but as Matt said, I can see the idea behind it.
I’m an avid reader of Chris Mazzone’s (new metsblog contributor) blog and saw his take on the trade early this morning, based on your reactions I thought some of you may be interested in it. You can find it here.
http://perfectseason.blogspot.com/
From Buster Olney’s Blog:
“Church, too has some baggage. Late in the 2005 season he was quoted in the Washington Post as suggesting that Jews will be eternally damned. He apologized two days later, and Minaya said the Mets looked into the incident before completing the deal.”
I love how Minaya “looked into this.” Did he ask Church if he hated jews and he said NO? Guess thats good enough for me.
You are leaving out about 90% of what actually happened. What went down with the comments about Jews hardly qualifies as “baggage”.
First off, I didn’t write that. Thats why I said it was from Buster Olney’s blog and I put quotes around it. However, I looked into Church’s actual comments, and while it doesn’t show a hatred towards jews, it absolutely shows an ignorance. And I don’t love the fact that any person would make an ignorant comment such as that one, let alone a baseball player that my favorite team just traded for. And while it may not qualify as “baggage” to you, it definitely does for me.
I don’t know you so i wouldn’t want to make assumptions, but based on your posting, I don’t expect you to view the comments in the same light as I do.
I meant to say, “your posting ID”
First off, Christian is my first name.
Nice to meet you.
And frankly, none of that crap matters.
Have you never told an off-color joke? Ever?
I don’t know you either, and I wouldn’t want to make any assumptions, but if you are going to try and answer no that I would tent to think you were fibbing.
His comment was not ingnorant. It was a joke.
It appears to me that you are using a non-story like this merely to add fuel to the fact that you think that Omar made a bad trade here.
Do you think the Mets *really* could have gotten Zito or Manny for Milledge? I wonder. If they could have, wouldn’t they have done that? And how mediocre is Zito turning out to be anyway? (Manny, of course, is another story…)
I didn’t like this deal at first, but now I’m over it. Whoever said “The Mets have no room for a .280 hitter…who alienates his teammates and his manager…” got it right.
I think there were some extra-baseball reasons for this trade. Lastings always seemed a little too, um, “hip-hop” for Randolph. Ryan Church is a nice player, but he just not sexy– except maybe to his Jewish ex-girlfriend. Maybe Omar will flip Church, maybe there’s something more exciting on the horizon.
Attitude in baseball may be the most overrated thing. Baseball is an individual sport, and with Miledge’s attitude, its not like he doesn’t hustle or try hard. He busts his ass, plays hard and play decently. I remember hearing about how “bad” Manny Ramirez’s attitude is. Man, that worked out bad for the Red Sox, huh?
It is not like basketball or football, where a teammate can ruin things singledhandedly.
Mets fans, of all people should know this. Am I the only one who remembers 1986? Milledge doesn’t come close to some of the guys on that team in terms of his attitude. It is about talent, and Milledge certainly has it. He hit .272 last year with decent power. 7hr in 184 ab is not bad at all. This guy is 22, and NOTHING he has done in the majors indicate he won’t continue to improve.
Is that why the ‘86 Mets expunged George Foster, who was dragging everyone else down?
It was because Foster was effectively done at that point in his career but if Foster still was the offensive player he had been with Cincinnati when in 1977 he hit 52 hrs the Mets would have been happy to keep him.
Everybody keeps claiming Milledge struglled when he got called up this year. When he was starting in Center-field after the all-star break because of Beltran’s injury, he led the team in RBI for a month, even though he was battin #8 in the order! And a final number of .272 BA, .341 OBP, .446 SLG is pretty decent for a 22 year old. No reason to give up on him.
Matt, this is the first time I’d join the “you’re way too defensive of Omar” crowd. This trade is a debacle, and I appreciate your optimism, but it hurts more today than it did yesterday.
i dont understand why all of a sudden people love lastings milledge this much.
i dont understand why all of a sudden people love lastings milledge this much.
Is it a love of of Lastings Milledge, or more of a genuine confusion and a growing discontentment with the organization after the way the season ended, and offseason has begun?
Key phrase is how “offseason has begun.” It’s still early. Are we nothing but yankee fans who can’t wait a bit to see how things work out. Plenty of time for bashing Omar if nothing works out and the team crashes next year. It’s almost like fans here are wishing for that so their dire predictions work out, and they can gleefully say goodbye to Omar. Nice. As I see it, it’s all residual pain from the last few weeks of the season.
Vestra reboxetine….
Vestra reboxetine….
I agree that the Mets are not very good at drafting and then developing their own players. Letting Jesus Flores get away for nothing was a disgrace. Bannister and Lindstrom are also terrible moves. Bannister if nothing else might have been good enough to use as a supplemental chip in a deal to get a front-line starter this year.
But I can’t put this Milledge/Schneider-Church deal in the same boat. Schneider and Church both have value that Zambrano or any of the scrubs Omar got back last year for Bannister and Lindstrom didn’t have.
It does have the potential to bite the Mets in the butt big time down the road. But wait till at least next July-August before making that assessment. By then we should get a better idea. Right not it looks like a good trade for both sides.
Should read: Right now it looks like a good trade for both sides.
It’s funny, I hear a lot of chatter from Mets fans about how we don’t develop players, but when you think about it, they’ve developed some solid MLB ballplayers. Maybe they’re not all stars, but they’re solid players.
Common complaints: this team needs a:
1) Second Baseman: Well, Ty Wigginton has turned into a solid everyday player, hasn’t he? While not a defensive maestro, he could be a poor man’s Jeff Kent at 2B.
2) First Baseman: Mike Jacobs. Ditto from Wiggy. Not a world beater, but still a nice LH bat at 1B.
3) Starting Pitcher: Scott Kazmir, Brian Bannister. Enough has been written about these two. Although, because of Burgos’ injury, I think that trade should be graded as Incomplete.
4) Relievers: Bell, Ring, Lindstrom, Owens. Even though I personally was a big Bell fan, I can’t kill them totally on that deal. Bell was given a chance. The latter two, I still don’t know why we dealt two flame throwers for junk balling lefties.
Some of that criticism concerns the Mets not developing these players for their own benefit — ie, they don’t develop with the Mets and it takes another team to develop and get these players to realize their potential OR they are traded for useless parts.that don’t add any value to the team.
Lindstom, Owens, Bannister, Kazmir, and Bell all fall into that category.
What Mets fans want (at least what I want to see) are players who come up through the Mets farm system and make it with the big team. Players like Reyes, Wright. And players like Papelbon and Youkilis for the Red Sox.
The last 10 years or so, the Mets seem to lag behind other teams in developing players that either contribute to the big club or are traded for valuable parts.
Let me add Jesus Flores to that Hall of Shame. Here was the Mets top catching prospect and they stupidly let him go for nothing because they didn’t value him enough. I think that’s because Omar has this blind spot to him where he undervalues any prospect/player he didn’t acquire himself. Of course there are exceptions, like Gomez. But he’s an exception to the rule.
This blind spot of Omar’s had been detrimental to the team.
I totally agree. The guys I mentioned in my post, while not guys you build around, would bring a lot of value in supporting or complementary roles.
Plus, once they gained some MLB experience, they could be dealt for key pieces. It seems the trend these days is to deal for cheap, proven MLB players rather than 4-5 unknown prospects.
Sigh.
CHURCH IS NOT A 4TH OF.
No matter how many times you or Mike and the Dog say it, it still won’t be true.
He had as good a season as Bobby Abreu last year.
No one is considering that Milledge’s value has dropped, the team didn’t see him coming into his own this year, so they looked at him as a sunk cost and moved him for a very solid complementary player and a great defensive catcher.
i also think the fa community is undervaluing Schneider.
MLB execs value him as one of the TOP defensive catchers in the game. Catcher is s defensive position. Dealing with pitchers, calling a game, throwing out base stealers is their greatest value.
Also, the Fan community is valuing milledge as if its still 2005 .. he clearly lost value over the last few years.
That’s in just 470 ABs. Extrapolated out to a full season, that’s roughly 20 HRs and 85 RBIs. While maybe not of all-star caliber, it’s pretty damn solid.
You also have to figure that hitting in the Nats lineup depresses stats. Just like hitting in a stacked Yankees lineup inflates numbers.
Church is a good all around hitter who can hit 15-20 HR, .270-.280 Average, 35-50 2B and .800-.850 OPS. He is a lefty and a right fielder. And that was all in RFK and in his first full season. He has always been good from his MLB debut.
Milledge’s CEILING is around there. He struggled against he breaking ball and pretty much at Shea as well. He has struggled in both of his years.
Milledge came up rocking the ball. Then they threw sliders.
because he had a rap album stupid
r u agreeing or disagreeing with me?
See, now this I don’t get.
Some of you who are lamenting this trade wanted them to get Rauch instead.
So you wanted to trade your “potential superstar” for a middle reliever?
Really?
At least they would have been filling a need. They traded a guy who is, or at the least at some point was, a top prospect to fill holes this team did not have. If Milledge was the guy they decided to trade, why didn’t they trade him to fit the gaping hole they have in the bullpen?
What gaping hole? This talk about the Mets terrible bullpen is so overblown.
Wagner, Heilman, and Feliciano all had solid years.
Schoenweiss was awful at the beginning of last season, but pitched well down the stretch. Plus, as his splits show, Willie pretty much misused him.
Joe Smith did well until he burned out.
Ditto for Sosa, who looked good coming out of the pen.
Sure, it wasn’t the ‘06 bullpen, but let’s be honest, not many bullpens are.
Would I like another arm in there, sure, why not. But this talk of a gaping hole in the pen is preposterous. Look at the month by month stats. The Mets had one of the better pens in the league until the last month. And a big reason why the pen wore down was the starting pitching.
I would’ve liked Rauch, but Omar said this talk had been going on for a while.
How do you know he didn’t try to get Rauch?
seriously .. all of this “he should’ve tried for XX” assumes knowledge none of us have. We have no idea of the myriad of conversations that must have occurred leading up to this trade. Omar’s not stupid (though some would have us believe this), and he’s a hell of a lot more informed than any one of us, or any 10 of us for that matter.
Key words. You believe.
Also key words. Church already has.
from watching Milledge last year – pitchers started to throw him breaking pitches away and get him out. At one point didnt he strike out 10 times in a row?
What MIlledge will be is not known.. Church is a known quantity on a team that is built to win now. Schneider is a huge upgrade in the catching department.
Unless Millz hits 320 with 30 HR and makes the AS team in the next three years .(And i think the odds of that happening are not high) Im ok with the trade.
Wish him well, buy a nats jersey and wear it to shea but move on already
“What MIlledge will be is not known.. Church is a known quantity on a team that is built to win now. Schneider is a huge upgrade in the catching department.”
Wow, so throw away upside for a known mediocre ceiling and a .235 hitting C?
Some of you will say anything to kiss Omar’s a–
This is going overboard. It’s not about showing emotion, it’s about maturity. I liked Lastings a lot, but had to cringe a lot too. The show boating, especially in that game against Florida, was too much. That’s not showing emotion. How many times did Keith Hernandez or even Dykstra–who were know to show emotion–try to rub their exploits in an opposing team’s face like that, instigating a fight along the way? When was that going to stop? He had progressed I thought during spring training but that side of him reared its head again. I really liked Lastings, but it was getting to be too much, and to give the Marlins a reason to want to kill us off in the last game was unforgiveable. Who’s gonna defend that behavior? I fully expect him to do the same to the Mets whenever he hits a homer against us in a big spot. And I hope it fires our guys up the same way.
willie can’t handle a player w/ personality
i have to wonder if LM’s rap album had been a good one, would he have been traded? Could Omar have traded a Grammy nominee?
Kids, be sure to pick your producers with care, otherwise…you could get traded to the Ex-pos too!
alright. i agree 100%
“ps
I just cringe whenever Cerrone types things now.”
I’m always amazed (amused?) by these kinds of comments from the “Bring Me the Head of Omar Minaya” types. Why do you guys even read this blog since it’s so obviously a propaganda outlet for the evil Mets GM? I seem to recall someone in a similar thread suggest the need for a fireOmar.com site. I totally agree, and you can all go and spew your venom at each other to your hearts content.
Meanwhile…I for one, am grateful that there is a site where serious consideration can be given to the events surrounding the team that we love, absent the infantile vitriol that so many seem to view as the gift bestowed upon them by the wonderfully anonymous internet.
Thanks Matt, for being an adult…Oh, and by the way, I said in another thread that this deal didn’t thrill me, but of course it’s way too early for anyone to know how it will play out (see Benson for Maine and El Duque)…