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…during last year’s Winter Meetings, i heard a lot of positive comments about Mets Double-A 1B Mike Carp, which has seemingly dropped off following his slugging season…
…this year, i noticed a lot of unexpected excitement surrounding Mets Double-A RHP Kevin Mulvey, Single-A LHP Nathan Vineyard and Double-A RHP Bobby Parnell…
In their recent Top 10 Prospects List for the Mets, Baseball 
America ranked Mulvey as the team’s second-best pitching prospect, behind Deolis Guerra, while Vineyard checked in at seven and Parnell at eight, behind Eddie Kunz, Phil Humber, Jon Niese and Brant Rustich, who MetsBlog’s Jordan Zakarin recently interviewed, which you can read by clicking here.
Regarding Vineyard, Baseball America writes…
“The Mets believe Vineyard can be a future No. 3 starter and has as much upside as anyone in their 2007 draft class.”
Meanwhile, in the New York Times, Ben Shpigel traveled to the Dominican Republic and profiles Mets OF Carlos Gomez and OF Fernando Martinez, both of whom have been mentioned quite a lot in trade talks this winter.
…first off, this is a fantastic column and a must read…second, i am clearly a sucker, because, while i was ready to trade both of these guys last week, after reading this, i am convinced 
both will win an MVP and go to the Hall of Fame…jeez, i’m so easy…nice job, shpigel…
…seriously, though, i’m starting to be more of a believer in gomez, who, according to ESPN.com’s Jayson Stark, could more attractive to the Twins than Red Sox OF Jacoby Ellsbury…also, over the last week, my own ears have heard martinez compared to a young Juan Gonzalez and Sammy Sosa…so, of the two, i can understand why fernando is viewed as the most untouchable of the lot, but people do like gomez, more so than i initially realized…
…it’s interesting, in that teams appear much more reluctant to trade these young players, and understandable so…the sense i keep getting is that, finally, teams believe it makes far more sense to trust a collection of triple-a pitchers from their own system, who may bumble around a bit, but will eventually find their way, as opposed to overpaying for some aging veteran on the back-nine of his career…both of whom may give the same results, but at least the younger player will earn less money and not bog down the roster for years to come…as such, prospects are being valued a lot of higher, which is slowing down the trade market…which is a good thing, actually…
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It is clearly a balancing act Matt. Not all prospects develop into their ceiling. For some…the lightbulb never gets turned on inside. Others….flounder for a bit and then find it….still others get hot right away and have success from the moment they put their glove on at their first game. You never really know.
I think there is an age where you should essentially give up. I do not know if it is 24 or 25 when you realize the player is not going to become what you expected but it should not be 22 like Milledge or 23 like Pelfrey. Both guys have not come on and been all world but both are clearly ML players and should have been given a chance to succeed. I am now going back to read the TImes article as it looks more and more like we are holding on to these guys since Ace trades seem near impossible to make right now.
Bottom line the mets farm system isn’t as bad as others in the media want you to believe. They just lack major league ready players. If Santana is held onto til the trading deadline these guys will have a chance to really advance their value. Anyway i keep hearin about guerra but noone talks about Dylan Owen. I had a chance to see him pitch twice for brooklyn last year…the second time i went was because i was so impressed by his first outing i had to see him again. The kid is like a mini-Pedro. At 5-11 he has a good fast ball between 92-94 that moves all over, a domintant 12-6 curve and a nasty change up. Most impressive was his command of the strike zone, something you can’t teach. He never walks batters and hitters look clueless trying to pick up his ball. He went 9-1, 1.49 era walked just 12 while striking out 69 in 72.1 innings pitched. NYP league pitcher of the year as he dominated. Keep an eye on DYLAN OWEN!
Guerra has been around since he was 16. Also he’s a 6′5″ 200lb 18 year old now. Dylan Owens has shown good progress so far. Owens wil have his time in the spotlight if he performs this year at a higher level.
Fernando Martinez has a great swing. I really hope he stays.
“whom Baseball America recently singled out, as the only two nonpitchers among the Mets’ top-10 prospects, with Martínez ranking No. 1 and Gómez No. 3.”
…and that is something to really consider, when thinking about dealing these guys off.
Yeah — we hear about these guys so frequently that there’s a perception that we’re rich with position prospects and pitching poor . . . but it’s not true deeper in the system. . . . On the bright side, however, maybe in a couple years, we have a healthy version of Gen K.
When Generation K was around and pitching well, we all would’ve said not to deal them the same way we say not to deal gomez or FMart now. Look what happened to them, if only we could’ve gotten a guy like Santana for them! Dont make the same mistake again, if you can get a Santana or Bedard or Haren DO IT!!
yup, don’t forget about the 4 players the Mets dealt for Conine and Castillo. Those guys would be the next level of position player prospects in the system if they hadnt been wasted on rentals who didnt help the Mets win it all anyway…
I don’t know about the guys dealt for Conine, but my brother spent the summer working with the Twin’s AA radio team and the consensus was that the guys we gave for Castillo were nothing to write home about.
both Dustin Martin and Drew Butera were FSL all stars last year, and Butera would have at least given them something at C in the organization. Martin is a decent OF and I wouldnt be surprised to see him develop into a bottom of the lineup OF or 4th OF.
The trades weren’t bad when they were made, but when the done make the playoffs and both players are FA’s it kinda makes the trades worse…
btw Sean Henry, and Jose Castro dont appear on the Reds top 10 prospects list at BA, so there’s that.
Maybe- it’s always hard to gage guys near the beginnings of their minor league careers, but you do have to remember that Martin was a 23-year-old in high A ball and Butera had an OPS of .439 when he got traded (which is pretty awful even for a 23 year old catcher in AA), so they’re still facing pretty long odds of contributing in any real way in the majors.
They will never turn into Juan Gonzalez nor Sammy Sosa simply because of the roid crackdown.
Gomez has a lot of upside b/c he has a huge frame.
The frame’s about all Gomez has going for him.
At age 21, Sammy Sosa had 51 extra base hits (15 HR) in his second major league season.
At age 21, Juan Gonzalez had 68 extra base hits (27 HR) in his third major league season.
At age 21, Carlos Gomez had 5 extra base hits (2 HR) in his first major league season.
Gomez may be projectable, but the true stars have all shown power by this point, which Gomez has not.
I think Fernando Might be a stud, but Gomez looks like Ruben Rivera with less patience. Trade him while his value is high.
Sosa had 532 AB. Gonzalez had 545 AB. Gomez had 125 AB.
Also, like you said this was Gomez’ first ML season, not even a full one, while Gonzalez had two part time years to learn the ropes, and Sosa had one part time year to learn the ropes.
So maybe we should give Gomez a chance to develop and see what happens before we dismiss his potential.
Right, but the point is that Gonzalez and Sosa having the previous years in MLB is an indication that they were better players and better prospects. They were able to reach the majors, and succeed there, at a younger age. Gomez’s career high in HR in the minor leagues is 8. He was completely overmatched this year, while at the same stage in their respective careers, Sosa and Gonzalez were already showing success at the ML level.
Even if you multiply Gomez’s numbers by 5, which would give him about 75-100 extra at bats on those guys, he still doesn’t even get half as many extra base hits.
While I understand he’s young and is likely to develop more, it’s also likely that if he had power potential, he would have shown at least some pop by this point.
Now mind you, there’s no shame in not being Sammy Sosa or Juan Gonzalez. Gomez’s defense is excellent, and he still has the potential to be a very good player. My point is simply that right now, while there are still some teams who think he could become that, is probably the peak of his trade value. And if you can take advantage of that to bring in a star, it might be better than waiting until the best he can bring you is Ryan Church and Brian Schneider.
Sorry, did not mean to make that whole thing italics.
Ok. So he might not ever be a power guy. He’s like Reyes (fast, a great athlete, and strong arm). Why can’t he be a OF who is a #1 or 2 batter? I like Gomez batting before Reyes go give Reyes a shot of getting more RBI’s. Gomez is really good at dropping a bunt and beating the throw to 1st (maybe even better than Reyes).
Plus, I’d like to see more of our guys stay on the Mets like Wright and Reyes did, we don’t have to trade all away for the big win now. Just my thougths.
First of all not everyone will turn out to be Wright and Reyes!
Secondly That was a great point Sethuel: If the mets had traded Miledge a couple years ago they could’ve had Haren Plus!!! GET A #1!!
some good points there, Sethuel.
The problem with prospects is that no one can really ever predict how they’ll do in the majors. Think of all the Mets can’t miss prospects who’ve gone on to have mediocre success at best: Preston Wilson, Gregg Jefferies, Shawn Abner, Paul Wilson, Bill Pulsipher. You just never know.
So while people cry and sob every time someone mentions trading them away, doing so for a proven star player often makes sense. Sometimes it works out in your favor and sometimes it doesn’t, but when a team is a player or two away from a possible championship it’s worth a shot.
Of course trading a potentional ace like Kazmir for some fourth rate pitcher like Victor Zambrano is just beyond comprehension.
Don’t forget the two alex’s, they didn’t have a tool between them
Victor Zambrano isn’t a 4th tier pitcher on his best day. The fact that Jim Duquette gets a seat on Mets Hot Stove is deplorable. I watched, just to catch the punch line. Like, maybe they would pelt him with tomatos at the end of the show. It didn’t happen. I was thoroughly disappointed.
dannyb,
you’re a smart guy, do you really think duquette made the deal? he wasn’t even fired, he was moved to a different position.
Elster,
Thanks for the compliment haha.
There comes a time as a GM that you gotta put your foot down, though. I would say 99.99% of the baseball people would tell you that trade was a bad one. It’s not the equivalent of Omar trading Sizemore for Colon while with the Expos…that was a franchise that was ecstatic to have a chance at winning.
The Wilpons and Duquette became somehow enamored with the fact that this team was hovering around .500 and maybe 3-4 games back of the Wild Card? In my opinion (being that I’m smart), you need to get back much better value than that.
In today’s terms, that would be the Yanks trading Phil Hughes last year, for Doug Davis. In terms of a baseball decision, you could make the argument that Kazmir was a better pitcher than Victor Zambrano even at the time of the trade. If there were other circumstances, such as Leiter not liking him, who the hell are they?
…oops. I meant, who the hell is Leiter (who had maybe one year left with the team) to decide on the team’s future.
Leiter was the biggest tool on the team.
True or not who knows? But did you guys ever hear the story of Kazmir firing a fastball near Wilpon as a joke, during spring training?
Either way, I’m almost certain that it was not Duquette’s idea to send Kazmir, he’s just the whipping boy, the patsy who was given a job to keep his mouth shut.
Off topic, but Franco was another tool. Only a tool would wear a big “C” on his uniform. Loser such as him dragged the team down.
I couldn’t agree more with you about Leiter and Franco. As more proof to what a tool Leiter is, here’s a little story.
Leiter had 2 good years for us and one huge game (wild card playoff). Franco was basically Tom Glavine as a closer. Chuck and duck.
I never heard that story about firing the fastball at Wilpon, but I can’t help but doubt its validity.
That’s silly. Franco was a great closer with the Mets for many years and Leiter had much more than 2 good seasons. You should try checking stats before you comment.
But the and ownership still had no business listening to these two bobos about Kazmir. The point is to put a winning team on the field, not keep a couple of has-beens happy. Duquette was a non-entity. Built to take orders. In fact, he should still be the GM. That is what these Wilpons deserve. They always make the wrong choice. But we are in the Age of Autonomy.Great idea–naturally, they make the wrong choice. I happen to think Omar is a well-meaning buffoon. But abuffoon. Maybe a good scout, but manage an organization? plan long-term? Ha.
To Elster: “Only a tool would wear a big ‘C’ on his uniform?” You mean a tool like Keith Hernandez?
Ha! Yeah, good point. Mex wore a “C” on his uni.
And of course Duquette was to blame. A lot of folks are to blame for the Kazmir debacle — primarily JD, the Wilpons, and those scouts JD hired.
It’s nonsense to put the blame on Franco and Leiter or Peterson. Though you can certainly question Peterson’s judgment here.
You wanna compare Keith to Franco? Keith’s jersey should be filled “C’s”
“That’s silly. Franco was a great closer with the Mets for many years and Leiter had much more than 2 good seasons. You should try checking stats before you comment.”
They were pretty good players who were never going to take us over the top. That’s that.
Franco, by hanging on to the team, hurt us both on the field and most importantly in the clubhouse. He’s a loser. Leiter’s a loser. It’s a mentality. Want another one for the record? Piazza’s a loser.
And unless something changes, Reyes and Wright are going to be pegged losers. It’s a mentality. And when losers run the asylum, It’s bad news for the everyone.
Do you think KEITH would have allowed a collapse like last year? Do you think KEITH would have allowed Clemens to win that WS game by intimidating our entire team?
Keith Hernendez deserves to wear the Mets captain’s C even NOW.
Gregg,
You know, sometimes you need to look past the numbers. Sure, Pedro pitched to the tune of a sub-3 ERA last year, he won games, etc. But, a majority of that was done by dancing out of trouble. Leiter did that for years, to the point where eventually he was throwing 100 pitches to get through 3 innings.
Fact is, we masqueraded Al Leiter as an ace for years, when he was actually a very good #3 or a good #2. Don’t get me started about how John Franco was a great pitcher for this team for years. I don’t need a stat book to tell me what my eyes can.
Taking nothing away from Leiter and Franco’s heart, but they had (a) no business telling the organization which of their prospects they didn’t like; and (b) weren’t as good as we would like to believe (remember).
I swear, it seems like some people here just look at baseball reference and never ever watch the games.
Agreed. Baseball is so much more than the computer. How many times have you seen a guy’s numbers and thought he’s a nice player. Then you see him play more often and you’re not impressed.
Would Keith have ‘allowed’ it? What kind of nonsense is that? Do you really think he can snap his fingers and make the team play? I don’t remember him willing us to win in ‘88. And I’m not sure what he had to do with Bill Buckner watching a ground ball roll by him in ‘86. Not only that do you listen to the Mets broadcasts? All Hernandez talks about is playing cards and drinking beer in the dugout. The ‘86 team was a great team, but they were a bunch of misfits and nutcases. Trust me, the reason they won had nothing to do with speeches from Hernandez.
I was at the WS game where Clemens beaned Piazza in the head. He wanted to tear Clemens head off and he also began a rally in the 9th inning with a HR. And it wasn’t Leiter’s fault they lost Game 1.
There have been plenty of great players who never won a WS. Carew, Gwynn, Mattingly. Would you call them losers too?
Dannyb,
I never said Leiter was ‘great’, but that doesn’t make him a good pitcher who was valuable to the team. And I don’t think any player has a right to say anything about how the team runs. They get paid to play, not manager, so they should all shut up no matter who they are.
And as for Franco, I certainly don’t remember holding my breath watching him pitch like I did with Benitez or I even do with Wagner, so I guess he couldn’t have been too bad. He was on the team 14 years so yeah the last few years weren’t as impressive, but it was the Mets choice to keep him and that shouldn’t take away from the fact that he did a great job the rest of the time.
You know everyone pitches into trouble, but only the good ones can pitch their way out of it.
Would Keith have ‘allowed’ it? What kind of nonsense is that? Do you really think he can snap his fingers and make the team play? I don’t remember him willing us to win in ‘88.
Again, not everything is measured by numbers. In ‘88, Keith was done. Just as Leiter and Franco were in the last 3 years of their careers.
I don’t remember him willing us to win in ‘88. And I’m not sure what he had to do with Bill Buckner watching a ground ball roll by him in ‘86.
Come on, why do you simplify the argument. Will, alone does not win games. Do I need to spell every little detail out?
Not only that do you listen to the Mets broadcasts? All Hernandez talks about is playing cards and drinking beer in the dugout. The ‘86 team was a great team, but they were a bunch of misfits and nutcases. Trust me, the reason they won had nothing to do with speeches from Hernandez.
Yea, Keith is hilarious. He and Darling are the perfect combo. Those 86 guys were men. Not a bunch of pansys. I can’t imagine Keith giving speeches. But setting examples? Yup. If the best player on your team takes constant beatings and does nothing, what will the worst players do? Follow suit. It’s not rocket science.
I was at the WS game where Clemens beaned Piazza in the head. He wanted to tear Clemens head off and he also began a rally in the 9th inning with a HR. And it wasn’t Leiter’s fault they lost Game 1.
Clemens didn’t bean Piazza in WS. He did, however, emasculate him. I remember game 1, it wasn’t Leiter’s fault. It was Benitez giving it up to Vizcaino. How does this help your argument?
There have been plenty of great players who never won a WS. Carew, Gwynn, Mattingly. Would you call them losers too?
Honestly, I can’t comment on them since I didn’t watch them play, save for Mattingly. I wouldn’t categorize Mattingly as a loser, b/c he was pretty good player (MVP) on some bad teams. He didn’t whine, and was a class act.
You reversed my argument. I said Piazza, Franco and Leiter are all losers, that is why we didn’t win a championship. I did NOT say, they didn’t win a championship, therefore they are losers.
you mean the great Keith Hernandez who flew out to centerfield, then walked back to the clubhouse and took off his uniform so he wouldn’t have to watch the “final out” of the ‘86 World Series? The same Keith Hernandez who once told Darryl Strawberry that the best way to break out of a slump was to go get “totally smashed.” The same Keith Hernandez who admitted to having a “love affair” with cocaine, and who’s presence on the Mets has been blamed by some sources as being a contributing factor for the slide into substance abuse by Strawberry and Gooden, costing the Mets a chance at a dynasty? That’s the guy you’re ok with being a team captain?
Mike Piazza, Al Leiter, and John Franco were the leaders of the only Mets team to date that made the playoffs back-to-back years. Piazza hit 5 postseason HR’s, including 2 in the 2000 World Series. Leiter was a GREAT #2 pitcher masquerading as an ace, but that’s not his fault, that’s Phillips’ (except in 2000, when they had an ace and went to the Series). Leiter’s ERA in the 2000 postseason was under 3.00. And in ‘99 and 2000, Franco was a GREAT setup man, striking out more than a batter an inning and posting ERA+ of 154 and 139, all while not complaining about losing his chance to break Lee Smith’s all-time saves record. To call these guys losers is ridiculous. They didn’t win a World Series, but they were also going up against two of the best franchises of the past 30 years, and didn’t have deep enough pitching to beat them both. And again, that’s on Phillips, not the players.
And to say Wright and Reyes have losers mentality’s is just ridiculous. They’re 24 years old. In their second full season together they won 97 games, had the best record in the NL, and were one Carlos Beltran swing from a World Series. Last year they should have been in the playoffs but for awful pitching down the stretch. I think you might be sucking that mid-80’s teams popsicles a little too much: outside of one great season, they were an incredible disappointment.
Don’t know about you guys, but I held my breath whenever either one of them came in the game. Then, in 1999 when Franco was Benitez’s setup man, I almost fainted like 5 times because of lack of oxygen. Those two pitching the 8th and 9th would be like Matt Franco leading off and Eric Valent batting 2nd.
Listen, maybe I went a little too far by saying Franco and Leiter were no good. Leiter pitched some big games. I never once questioned his heart. He should have won Game 1 of the WS that year (I think there is someone who posts on here “Hit The Weights Zeile”, must be a reference to that infamous Timo Perez play at the plate), but that was lost by baserunning and Paul O’Neil.
Elster, I don’t know why you are disparaging Franco’s “C” so much — his teammates voted him captain. He was highly regarded in the clubhouse no matter what you think. That’s all that matters.
I also don’t agree with this “loser” mentality thing. Just because a player doesn’t have a ring they are a loser? Ok, then Giambi, Mussina, Hideki, and A-Rod are ALL losers.
continued …
As for Clemens he threw a splinted bat in a steroids rage! Did you really expect Piazza to charge the mound when it seemed that Clemens was as crazed as anything?
NRMAX58,
I never said Lowry was wonderful. I said he would be coming here as a #5 starter…did I not? Schneider is an upgrade over LoDuca defensively, which is great. I want a defensive catcher, if it wasn’t going to be LoDuca. However, if we could have gotten a guy like Lowry instead of Schneider, then kept LoDuca….that probably would have been optimal.
By the way, don’t name call. It’s not my fault you were born with a small wee wee. Deal with it dude.
Sorry, wrong post above.
How was Clemens not ejected from that game? Beyond me.
Gotta love his excuse. “I thought it was the ball.” Haha. If that’s the case, why didn’t you throw it to Tino? Hmmm, don’t you think that would have been a great follow up question for the reporters? Nobody asked it though….Yankee media machine. Teflon Joe.
Thank goodness this guy (Clemens) retired.
Just to add a bit, game one was lost by that little squirrel Timo not running cuz he thought the ball was going over the wall. That lack of hustle cost us the game. And lets be honest, Piazza was wrong not to charge the mound on that play, but i dont think he is a loser in any way shape or form. He hit big home runs and always played hard. Maybe he did not win a WS but he was no loser….also, dont leiter have a world series ring from being with Florida? Hmmm, some loser that guy.
sorry to butt in, but my $.02:
Piazza charging the mound and possibly getting ejected-or worse, suspended- would have reduced any chance that team had of winning to zero. If game five is in the Bronx, that “fly ball” Mike hit in the ninth becomes “game winning home run”. Mike was a smart and steady player, not an emotional hurricane. And definitely not a loser.
…and who can forget Franco freezing Barry Bonds with an inside changeup in the DS? Twice!
Stopped reading the string when someone said Keith Hernandez can’t compare to Piazza, Franco, etc because those teams didn’t get to the postseason two years in a row. Wow, remember bozo that there was no wild card back then, which is how the 1999 and 2000 Mets got in both times!! If there was a wild card then, the Mets were in the playoffs 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, and maybe even 1989 and 1990. No comparison!!
btw, kazmir wasn’t potential, he was the real deal
the rays made us look like bigger idi0ts by bringing him up that same year.
Mr. Cerrone:
Off-topic here, but wanted to thank you and the Metsblog Staff for the tremendous coverage of the Winter Meeting (and entire off season for that matter). Great job. This is a great site for Mets fans on and off season.
-the other matt
I am finally ok with just moving on and keeping our prospects for now. Let them try and develop more value.
Sign Silva to lock down the #5 spot.
Is a rotation of
Pedro, Maine, Perez, Elduque, Silva really that bad? With Pelfrey, and Mulvey still there to take Elduque’s spot?
Is a line up
Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Alou, Church, Schnieder really that bad with Easley, Gotay, Anderson and Gomez on the bench?
I would make a couple of other minor moves.
Sign the left out of the loop reclamation project like Colon/Garcia/Jennings/etc.
Sign Jamey Wright or Chacon to be the long man.
Sign Stewart or Sosa to be a RH power hitter of the bench.
Trade Humber and Estrada for a relief pitcher from the Nationals.
Those moves still put us in the hunt for October. Then if that magic deal presents itself so be.
I am just really curious to see why everyone loves Gomez so much. Lets give it sometime to find out.
You left Castro off the bench. If we carry 12 pitchers, there is no room for Sosa. I think this will be the case since we selected Register in the rule 5 draft.
I kind of agree on Silva. He’d be the lone FA signing I’d make.
If you sign Colon as a reclaimation project, prepare to hand him a spot in the rotation. I don’t think he’d settle for a AAA contract. His stock hasn’t dropped that much, yet.
I agree. I forgot Castro and thus we would not need that extra RH hitter.
As for Colon you are prob. right. I still think there will be one of these reclamation projects that will get left with out a team like Sosa did last year. If we sign Chacon or Jamey Wright, either of them could start in a pinch.
Position players
Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Alou, Delgado, Church, Gomez, Schnieder, Castro, Anderson, Gotay, Easley
Pitchers
Pedro, Maine, Perez, Elduque, Silva, Pelfrey, Heilman, Feliciano, Show, Sanchez, Wagner, Sosa. If we sign Chacon or Wright then Show has to go.
How about giving Pelfrey a shot to start the season. The kid is going to be good. Got very good stuff.
Please don’t bring Silva in. He is pretty much garbage and wants $10MM. No thanks. For a 5th starter, I’d rather go with Pelfrey. I’d rather move Heilman to the rotation than get Silva.
I get the point with seeing what Pelfrey has, however, what if he comes in an sucks like last year? Who backs him up? Humber? Mulvey? I would rather have a locked up average guy that I know will give me the innings for #5 in case Elduque does get hurt and we have to bring in Pelfrey for him.
Gomez won’t be on the bench. He’ll be in AA or AAA working on his plate discipline and pitch recognition. Also, he’s only 22, he needs a full year down there.
Bringing Gomez up was a mistake. His progress halted and value dropped.
We were better off bringing up a journeyman or signing a free agent.
who were we going to get when Alou went down, Green got hurt, Endy pulled the hammy Milledge was on the DL almost all at the same time?
Omar had no choice but to bring up Gomez. He was in a terrible position to negotiate a trade and would have had to overpay in talent to get another outfielder. Gomez at the time was the only solution.
I have him platooning with Church and giving Alou and Beltran time off. But as usual I left someone off again. Endy!!! That makes our bench really LH, especially considering that Gotay is pratically LH as well, but oh well.
If we stood pat with the express purpose of developing our young pitching into something either usable or tradeable, I’d be okay. ElDuque in the 4 spot. Maybe Pelfrey’s September call up is a sign of good things to come, and can hold down the 5th spot. Humber and Mulvey will be sitting in AAA.
When Alou and Delgado come off the books in 08, we could dump a lot of money on Tex.
We could open up Citi Field in 2009 in pretty good shape.
I agree with you..I sorta hate what we’ve become. We’re the minor league yankees in alot of ways..and even the yankees aren’t looking to trade everyone away. We have players in the minors that could fill in where we have gaps, but they’re not given a chance to succeed.
maybe its just the amount of talk this offseason, and how apparently teams think our prospects are crap, but I’d be willing to go into the season with our starters as-is, and see how pelfry, and humber do.
Maybe its time to focus on the bulpen, and tweak our offense..
Our position players are set. It would take a pretty big deal to get a significant upgrade over Church.
Yes… and be willing to lose if necessary. Those Braves that won 14 straight divisions were AWFUL right before they started winning because they were going through their growing pains. I’d rather finish third this year because our prospects were taking their lumps, than finish third this year (and beyond) because we got nothing back in trades for them or signed mediocre free agents. I’d rather be mediocre with my own guys than mediocre with retreads.
This is a very solid post. We should be getting ready to go get Texieria at the end of this year. Though i think that we should go out and sign Silva. He is pretty young, he eats innings and he actually had three good seasons out of four with 2006 being the abberration. My only concern about him is that he might be a little heavy, but he is 6′4” and 240 lbs which i realized is my size…………….And with that, i am off to the gym!
At Gomez’s age, he could work out and play all winter and just grow by huge leaps next year.
I think Pelf started to put it together last year a bit
I think adding those two guys and having them play regularly will work out.
Why not go with a 6 man rotation in the begining. Some facts.
Pedro does not want to start every 5th day and would love an extra day.
Elduque does not care about days inbetween starts.
Perez and Maine both hit walls last year because of innings.
Pelfrey needs to be in the rotation to build value and seek his potential.
However, with all the question marks still sign Silva and get guarnteed ML average innings in the #5 spot.
Pedro, Maine, Perez, Elduque, Silva, Pelfrey?????
What do you guys think?
I hate the idea. I think it screws guys up to much
I totally agree. The 6 man rotation down the stretch definitely messed with Maine and Glavine, imo. Plus, we had to endure a start from Lawrence.
not a bad idea really, not bad at all, I just hope we don’t have to go to 4 years with Silva.
The only two pitchers i think we should trade our key prospects for, is santana, or bedard. eff billy beane!
I think whoever pelfry pitches for this year, he’s going to have a breakout season and win 12-15 games. I hope its the mets! the guy throws 96, and is 23/24.
Pelfrey’s biggest problem is his pitch count. He’s gotta be able to get out of the 6th inning under 100 pitches.
This is something David Wells is a master at. If you want to teach the young kids on your staff how to get through 6 innings under 90 pitches, scrap the Silva/Colon idea and bring in Wells. Imagine if we could get our young guys to keep their pitch counts down? A guy like Ollie would take off.
I agree – Pelfrey seems to have a problem getting strike three. It’s Maine’s issue too later in games. He gets ahead in counts but can’t get that finishing pitch. If Pelfrey could just get some control on his slider/curve and more consistency with his fastball he’s be great. His control is just much to be desired right now.
you think another pitcher is going to suddenly teach this kid how to “lower his pitch count”? It’s about control, Pelfrey just has to ge it together in that department, which takes mechanics, confidence, and some experience. David Wells won’t do anything for him.
It takes a village…
You need to build a solid club house, with a mix of young talent, but also of experienced veterans who can perform, teach, and lead. OMG! I sound like Willie!
With Pelfrey, I think he needs to relax and just trust his stuff. You can tell he gets really pumped up out there and starts chomping on that mouthguard.
You can see he starts to overthrow, he gets a bit wild, and his fastball loses that killer sink.
I don’t think Wells’s secret is anything more than control. He never walks anybody. Do you think Plefrey would see that and suddenly say, “Ohhhhhh!!!! I should throw STRIKES!!!! Why didn’t anybody tell me?” and then he’d suddenly throw strikes?
“Ohhhhhh!!!! I should throw STRIKES!!!! Why didn’t anybody tell me?”
this made me spit my coffee
Yeah, and if you want to teach guys how to pitch hung over, how to expand your waistline and manage to keep your pants up, how to piss everyone in the clubhouse off and how to worship a guy who has been dead for 50 years, lets get David Wells.
…like for the Zephers?
I dont get it, but it seems like the organization is prepared to go with Maine, Perez, Pedro, Livan, Duque. While Pelfrey, Humber, and Mulvey can all start in AAA.
I wouldnt mind seeing Pelfrey in the pen with that 5 man rotation considering that Duque will get hurt, Pedro hasnt shown he can pitch on regular rest, and Livan is likely to need to miss a few starts here and there. Modified 6 man rotation anyone?
That said it doesnt seem like there is any room in the pen for a long man like that as it is.
I think you need pelfrey to start anywhere so his innings can be built up.
I agree
“Pedro hasn’t shown he can pitch on 5 days rest”
That was also right off of his rehab assignment. He has had all winter to rest his shoulder. I think he’ll be fine. (knock on wood)
Even before we would give him spot starts off.
5 days rest he’ll be fine, its the 4 days rest that worries me. I just dont know how much I trust him to make 3 or 4 starts in a row on 4 days rest.
I would say Pedro should be considered a 25-30 start pitcher under ideal senarios in 2008.
Pedro is the ideal guy to skip in the rotation noce in a while when a day off allows it.
You want to roll out your best arms, but if he needs a break, that is the way to do it.
Either tha, or give him his tradtional 2 weeks vacation around the ASB.
Yup, long morning but that is what I meant. Giving him 5 days rest instead of the normal 4. Many times it will not be an issue but having a modified 6 man rotation can give him and Elduque time off.
stickguy: the problem with skipping Pedro (like after an off day, I assume you mean) is that Maine and Perez arent exactly the kind of pitchers who can give you 34-35 starts. Which is what happens if an ‘ace’ pitches every 5th day all season long. They seemed to prefer having those guys pitch with an extra day when it could be afforded as well. And Livan (if signed) is no longer a 35 start guy either.
Kinda makes it tough to have a rotation of just 5 guys. Hopefully they keep some extra guys available as starters in ST and don’t bookmark Heilman, Sosa, and others for the pen to early.
as much bad as we have been hearing about the Mets quantity and quality of prospects there really is a lot to like from the 2007 draft class as well as the 2006 and 2007 international signings. The farm system is bottom heavy at the moment which is going to take 2-3 to ‘fix’ as some of these guys develop into prospects. The system will be ok, but look for a lot of AA and AAA retreads for the 2008 season.
Parnel is one of my faves, and he was dominant in the FSL, then held his own in AA last season. He could be poised to be of some help to the Mets in the second half of the season if he continues on the path he is on. Or become a better chip by the trade deadline at the least.
Mulvey showed a lot more skill and overall development than Humber or Pelfrey last year, its no suprise teams are high on him. He seems ready to get big league hitters out, but likely needs another season in AAA just to get his innings up to where he can survive a full MLB season.
PCL is a hitters dream….Mulveys stock will not rise now that he is pitching in that league. We need to trade him now while there is somthing of a buzz about him.
My vote is a rotation like this…
Pedro, Maine, OP, Pelfrey and Humber
Pen
Wagner, Sanchez, Heilman, Feliciano, Duque, Show, Sosa
Register does not make it past spring training but if he is good enough, move Sosa to AAA (all of this assumes that Sanchez is healthy)
If Pelfrey and Humber both crap out….very unlikely in my opinion, then Duque to the rotation and Sosa callled up from AAA.
I think it is time to get something out of Pelfrey and Humber. Both seem poised to make it now.
Humbers run at the end of the year included a near no hitter in his last start (then he cooled his heels for 2.5 weeks before that last start with us where he spit the bit in the 4th inning)
Pelfrey also showed by how he ended the year (3-1 in his last 5 starts) that he may have turned a corner.
Lets see em all go for it.
We could end up with a Blanton and Haren on our team….young and in control money wise
You make a good point. If you look at guys like Haren, Bedard, Blanton, their early career numbers aren’t that hot. Haren started in the pen, and took a couple of years to put it together. Bedard also took a few years to harness his talent and break out.
Blanton actually stunk horribly in 2006 I think, with a very high ERA.
So, Pelfrey for sure has the raw talent and mechanics and size to develop into at least as good a pitcher as Haren (Pelf was a higher rated prospect). And Humber has more upside than Blanton given a little time.
JOhan might be more of a freak of nature, but he even spent a few years in the pen when he was younger refining his craft.
SO yeah, put Pelf in the Pen, and he could be Dan Haren like in a couple of years.
ANd since he should be at least as good as Livan or Silva in 2008, where is the upside to getting a sucky innings eater over using the young guys?
If he hits the wall (from innings) later in the year, shut him down and let the hot thing in AAA (Mulvey?) get some late year starts.
Oh god, you want to start the season with Pelfrey and Humber in the roation? That will make us sellers by the All-Star game. You can’t have 2 pitchers with potential to be over 5 ERA in the same rotation and expect to win.
I realize you are taking a risk. But given the alternatives out there. I’d personally rather develop the two pitchers at ml level than go to war with Silva for 4 yrs or Colon or Livan for 2.
Plus at some point….you have to let the ready pitchers pitch against ML competition. Can’t simply baby them forever. Their value is reduced by not getting them up here. Especially if you consider the PCL effect on pitching. Humber won the ERA title in that league last year with an ERA above 4. He also won the lowest WHIP title with an uninspiriing 1.36 or something.
We gain little by devaluing them. Time to let em play out on the big stage.
But you devalue them by doing exactly as you propose: letting them suck in the bigs kills their confidence and hinders development, rather than facilitating it. Like sending a 6 year old to wrestle an 18 year old. I mean, I agree that you can’t baby them forever, but you have to give them the instruction and tools they need to succeed against the best hitters in the world.
I’m all for Pelf, but Humber is not at all ready for the majors.
It is nice to see some of the “we didn’t trade 10 guys for an ace, the sky is falling” hysteria is abating.
It seemed to get overlooked that, collapse aside, the Mets are still one of th emore talented teams in the laegue. The rotation is also got a solid base.
So it ispossible for them to win a lot of games and make the playoffs with what amounts to minor tweaks, or maybe 1 solid mid-level move.
This team isn’t really an old, win now or bust team. Yes, they have some old guys in their last year, but at this point, Alou, Delgado, Duque and even Pedro last year were complimentary pieces, not core nucleus guys.
Really the only old guy that is a key cog is Wagner, and frankly, he could be easily replaced if need be (teams are alsways pulling closers out of nowhere).
I also expect Pedro to be resigned. Maybe he settles toward the bottom of the rotation, heck he could be the pitching coach, he just makes them better.
SO, Alou, Duque, Delgado can all hit the highway after 2008.
They still have DW, Reyes, Beltran, CHurch, Castillo, Maine, Perez (assuming he resigns), Pelfrey Heilman as the core vets in their prime years.
Martinez and gomez? Maybe they wil be the real deal and starting to contribute in 2009.
Pick up a FA or make a nice trade after next season and add someone like Teix or DUnn to play 1B. Maybe grab another starter then if needed.
SOrry if I have the rose colored glasses on, but even though the team, as of today, has some holes to fill, the situation is not as bad as some fans seem to believe. All MHO of course.
you’re spot on. Despite what Joe “they’re a .500 team” says, this team under performed last season. I honestly think the 2006 team is more what this team is than 2007. If we can’t trade for a ace, then I think Omar needs to concentrate on the pen and try to make these games only 6 or 7 inning games.
Omar has spent the last two drafts signing relief pitchers from the college level. He has been stockpiling them. The problem with fans is that we only know the big sexy names – Martinez, Gomez, Milledge and we’re not aware of all the other minor league players that we do have.
Just a thought…
If Deolis Guerra is such a hot prospect, why weren’t any GM’s or so-called “experts” including him in any trade proposals?
either becasue he is years away from helping at the ML level (and the GMs seem to want multiple guys ready to help right now to replace their ace), or the Mets just have him as untouchable.
I think it was his age and level. He is just too far away to have big enough value to be able to be used in a deal as the key piece for an Ace. Check back after a year in AA
Trade Aaron Heilman to the Mets Rotation for the Mets starter Mike Pelfrey.
I could live with that.
Actually, Heikman is a viable option if they get enough live bodies in the pen to make him expendable.
I posted this on the Register thread (love that name!).
If he is for real (and the jacket can get himover the hump) he could replace Mota. If Duaner comes back strong (I know, a big if) the pen could be, with no more moves:
Wagner – closer (or at least he tries to be)
Heilman – set up 7/8
Sanchez – set up 7/8
Feliciano – LOOGY/set up/swing man
Schoe – LOogy and garbage time
Register – ROOGY and garbage time
Sosa – swing man, long relief, emergency starter
Now, if another dark horse pushes his way in (Rustick? Kunz?) or even SMith looks strong, there may be a numbers problem. What if Register looks ready for a bigger role (he does have closer experience).
Put SMith/Kunz or whoever into the ROOGY/garbage time role, Register backing up Sanchez for the 7th, and Heilman to the pen.
Pelfrey could also end up in that spot if they want him to work on stuff out of the pen.
Lots of options. Oh, and I consider garbage time to be those 2 inning stints in the 5th-6th where the pitcher leaves a little early, and you need someone to keep the other tem quiet. Ong releif is like when you get pulled after 1 out down by 7 runs (not that that ever happens!)
Heilman is a proven in the pen, both are a crapshoot in the rotation. Why swap a proven/unknown for an unknown/unknown?
It is silly to knock around Leiter. He gave us everything he had
everytime out. Unlike, say, glavine.
But about Franco I boyh agree and disagree, he was a solid
closer for a long time but, i still cringe thinking we gave up a
yonng Randy Myers for him because he was a homeboy.
ah, so martinez draws comparisons to juan gonzalez and sammy sosa? is that with or without steroids?
Eh…im tired of analyzing our prospects, whose better, whose ceiling is higher, who will and wont pan out, who has trade value etc…
The Mets have more holes than swiss cheese right now, and that swiss is probably gonna be nice and fresh for Spring Training 2008.
I’ve stopped stressing….because as the A.L powerhouses keep getting stronger…..I don’t think the Mets have a shot at a ring, no matter what they do. There is no team in the N.L today that has much of a chance at winning a 7 game set vs. the top 6 teams in the AL
Said the same thing in 2006. Anything can hapen in the series, but the key is to get theer. Remember Yolanda, you have to be in it to win it!
We all really have to get over 2006. The Cards stunk. The Mets should have beat them, and the Tigers should have too. But I’ll pet a few paychecks that aint happening again! That was a huge fluke. 2004,2005 and 2007 were all A.L dismantlings of NL teams in the WS.
Sure anything can happen….just like anything can happen in the All Star game in which the NL cant win since the ice age.
I’d like for the Mets to be there…but I don’t need to watch a 4 game dumptrucking either.
what was so good about the TIMES ARTICLE?
Shipgel goes to see Fmart and Gomez play and neither is there..so he writes some filler.
Haha, I was thinking the same thing. I got to the bottom of the page and was looking or a “next page” link. I didn’t read anything that got me excited for either of these guys.
Woohoo, Gomez is monogamous! Not THAT’s the type of player we need on this team next year.
If Gomez and Martinez are not traded where would they play next year (Mets, AAA, AA)?
Let our young pitchers compete for the 5th spot.
Mulvey and Pelfrey and Humber should get 3 /4 starts each in the Spring. I’d give the winner the 5th spot. If Mulvey earns the job then put Pelfrey in the pen and Humber in AAA. If Pelfrey wins the job put the other 2 in AAA.
I want to keep both FMart and Gomez.
I say keep one of them.
We have the guys locked up to build a core around, and there will be other prospects.
Gomez provides more talent in the near future, but has a lot of strike zone and power development.
Martinez is a long term guy, but an injury risk.
I don’t care which one we trade. I just want to keep one, keep Mulvey or Humber and get an ace.
Gomez/Martinez, Heilman, Pelfrey, Humber/Mulvey/Niese, and Estrada/Gotay for an ace, pereferably Bedard because the Phillies are offering Victorino and Kendrick for him.
[...] an interesting post today on Comment on Read: Gomez and Fâ
Paxil….
How does paxil raise blood sugar. Paxil….
Ah, you’re right. My b.
good job
Sosa hit 232 that year and didn’y get over the 260 mark until he was 25 which was a breakout year for him and his back, lol. Gonzalez hit 264 as a 21 year old and 260 the following year. The one did Gonzalez did show was power. That I must admit.