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…well, over the last day or so, i have talked with essentially the same group of people that i normally do, who are connected to and have knowledge of what the Mets are up to, and the sense i get is that while the team still feels confident 
in their ability to acquire Johan Santana, people around santana currently think the Red Sox are back to being the front-runners…which makes me wonder if Boston recently stepped up their offer to the Twins…also, from what i can gather, the Rangers are the third team in this mix, not the Yankees, Mariners or Angels, but i do not believe they have much of a chance to get him anyway…
…at any rate, if there is a sticking point with the Mets, again, as i said over the weekend, it could be that santana wants a seven-year deal, and the Mets remain uncomfortable with that sort of contract for a pitcher…also, despite agreeing and understanding that the Jose Reyes-caliber player is off the table, yet any other player can be had, the Twins now suddenly want more or less every single pitching prospect the Mets have…seriously…last weekend, when i relayed the phrase, ‘the Mets are willing to flood the Twins with prospects,’ i took that to mean two top-pitchers, two top-outfielders, and a player like Aaron Heilman…now though, while i have not heard any specific names mentioned, it is sounding to me like the Twins want Carlos Gomez, Mike Pelfrey, Philip Humber and Kevin Mulvey, among others…so, basically, the Twins want the whole lot…and the Mets are reluctant to do so, and i can’t say i blame them, especially if they are having reservations about such a long-term contract…
…nevertheless, people connected to the Mets still seem positive, though i keep hearing that they’ll continue to ‘monitor the situation,’ which hardly invokes confidence from me…at the same time, people around santana, who prefers to pitch for the Mets, are back to seeing Boston as a likely destination…so, there is a definite disconnect there, which i am having very a difficult time figuring out…what really drives my crazy, speaking as a fan who badly wants to see santana end up in queens, is that every conversation i have had, no matter who it is, always ends the same, which is with, ‘well, you never know, things could certainly change.’…ugh…no kidding…
…by the way, this is why i never got in to investigative journalism…i’m a writer who blogs his experience about being a Mets fan, which now happens to include conversations with people who tend to know what’s up on the inside of this organization…and so i write about it…that said, i’m not going out of my way to research a story…i prefer to just sit back and watch it develop…at the same time, when people contact me, or talk, i listen…and then i write…so, if my account of minaya’s pursuit comes off as flip-floppy, or running in circles, that’s because it is…
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I would be pleasantly surprised if Santana ends up on the Mets. I’m not expecting it however.
If Boston is back as the frontrunner, that probably means they’ve indicated a willingness to include both Buckholz and Ellsbury. I don’t think the Mets can compete with that. The only silver lining would be if Santana realizes he doesn’t want to pitch in the AL East and puts the kaibosh on the deal (highly unlikely).
Dude, there’s no way the Sox give up Buccholz alone, let alone with Ellsbury. If the Sox are the front runners it probably means that they’re either giving up Lester, Crisp, and 3 high ceiling prospects or Ellsbury and 3 or 4 similar high ceiling prospects.
Why would the Red Sox ever give up 2 of Lester, Ellsbury, Buccholz if the Yanks aren’t offering Kennedy and Hughes and their primary compeition is the Mets who are willing to give up 4 or 5 guys, none of whom are as good as Lester, Ellsbury, or Buccholz?
If anyone really thinks a deal like that can actually happen…you are all so friggin out of your mind it is ridiculous. Worse…according to the poll you have going…more than half would do the deal and cripple the entire franchise for one pitcher.
You realize that this is not a player who is cheap or under control for more than a year (I realize you are getting a window to negotiate your deal). He is all but gone from the Twins no matter what. in 12 months, he is free to sign anywhere and all it costs you is one first round draft pick and money.
No team in their right mind would trade all 3 relatively close pitching prospects, 1 well thought of but A ball pitcher, one ML dominant set up man, and the teams best outfield prospect for one CY Young winning pitcher.
He throws his glove on the field 34 times a season at best. That means you go to war without this guy for 128 other games. Plus you eliminate yourselves from any future trades for the next year or likely 2 and have no depth from which to assist the big club in the outfield where you are certain to have at least one need coming up in LF. Also, you have to think about 1b in the near future and the reality that next year, Pedro, OP and Duque are all free to hit the road leaving you a rotation of just Johan Santana and Maine.
Forget it
and you have NO protection against injuries in the pitching rotation. What happens if Pedro and El Duque go down at the same time? Trading all those guys for one player is the case of making a trade to make a trade. It is irresponsible and just plain stupid.
That’s how you end up with Chan Ho and Brina Lawrence in the rotation. At the same time.
I’d agree if I thought anyone we are giving up is that good. If the list included F-Mart our only real prospect it would be a different story. From what we have seen so far from the people mentioned nothing has impressed me and clearly no one else in baseball thats why the redsox have the advantage. Pelfrey and humber will be a steve trachsel types. Gomez will be very replaceable as a .270 w/ 10 hr guy, Mulvey and Guerra are the only wildcards and a risk I would take.
Johan is the prize and the guy that makes us contenders year in and year out. If even one of the guys we send to Twins pans out they will be lucky. we know what we are getting they dont. The mets are not the Royals - we have money and will be able to attract FA’s. Without Santana I think we take a big step back especially considering the rest of the NL east.
I agree with you gwg … if anyone would trade all of that for Santana - who will cost a ton anyway - I have two words for you: Herschel Walker.
Also, if Santana really wants to play for the Mets, why not reject the trade, wait a year, and get tons of cake from the Mets? I know one year is another year with the possibility of injury, but if he “really” wanted to come to the NL and NY, I would think he would chance it.
I don’t believe the hype.
Please everyone, come off it. There is NO reasonable trade for Johan. While I would love to see him in our rotation also, that isn’t the number one concern with the Mets and you all are thinking way too wishfully.
After all, let us not forget the horrific April David had, or the first half Delgado had. Had either one of those two performed like they are supposed to perform to let us win one or two more games, then then we hit the playoffs and no one is complaining about the rotation.
And to all of you Maine and OP haters, bear in mind there is a whole winter for them to develop and no one can honestly say that they think those two guys will be bad next year.
Personally I am in favor for a bullpen upgrade and I hate to quote Steve Philips but a solid pen can get you 2-3 wins a week, an Ace can only get you a win once every 5 games (at best!) So any trade involving Heliman should be erased, and I can’t see Minnesota wanting to trade Johan w/o Heliman in the package.
So quit hassling about Johan because you all know it will never happen, and if it does for the Mets, it will be a 6 player swap leaving the franchise burnt to the ground in the coming seasons.
“Gomez will be very replaceable as a .270 w/ 10 hr guy”
most scouts say gomez will be a 280is 30/30 guy, with gold glove defense and a cannon for an arm, some even say 30/50. But I believe you, and youre amazing scouting report on him. Thats like me saying, Colby Rasmus is nothing but a .270 10 hr guy. But then again, you are ignorant so you probably dont even know rasmus. Also, you dont know martinez either you just read about him so u say his name like your cool , and pretend to actually know something. One could make the arguement that 6 years of Gomez cheap is not even worth Santana for one year straight up. I would make that arguement.
“Without Santana I think we take a big step back especially considering the rest of the NL east.”
Yeah, that makes sense, we stay the same, nobody in the NL East with the possible exception of washington gets bettrer, but we take a step back. How do you stupid monkeys justify the things you say. Do you actually just repeat them until you believe this absolute garbage is true? The braves traded renteria and Smoltz and Chipper are a year older, they lost Andruw. Theyre not better. The Phillies go a nice close but lost a lot of big time production from their 07 CF. They didt get better. The Mets have a full year of Pedro instead of Glavine. We will say thats a wash, which is being polite. We upgraded big time at catcher, regardless of what some of the monkeys who dont understand the sport will tell you. We also upgraded big time at RF from last year, and it stings losing Milledge, but he is like 3 or 4x more valuable playing center, where he is much better. Church posted a 500 slg this year vs righties, but most dont even know what tht means so they call hima platooner. His numbers vs right hand pitching was better then every player on the Mets last year besided Wright and Beltran. We upgraded green and lo duca, and we upgrade pedro over glavine. Yup though, we are petty much already done in the division. Lets just cancel the season.
Well, here’s what they are saying in Minneapolis:
Latest Johan Santana Rumors
Joe Christensen of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune has the latest buzz surrounding the Johan Santana trade talks.
The Red Sox and Twins talked yesterday, and the Twins are leading toward Jacoby Ellsbury rather than Jon Lester. Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson would also be included, and the sides are trying to figure out a fourth player.
The Yanks and Twins haven’t talked much lately, but apparently Kei Igawa’s name has come up in the talks. He can’t have much trade value in the Twins’ eyes.
Christensen implies that the Mets might be trying to finish second here, staying involved for the sake of PR.
Christensen also notes that the Twins are fond of Jered Weaver, and the Angels could jump in if they decide to use their trade chips on another starter.
Also, the idea of the Twins including another player on their end has come up. In the past Joe Nathan has been mentioned, but Christensen is referring more to Twins’ prospects. They don’t have much in the system though.
I give the mets brass kudos for not letting the twins hold them hostage. Three pitching prospects with the option of Heilman instead of one of them plus either Gomez or Martinez is fair. Twins want a fourth pitcher or both outfield prospects? No…. Have to walk away from that, enough is enough…..
It may be time for the Mets to 1) send out some smoke signals to Santana that they are willing to back up the Brinks truck (not that they are, just saying as a fan, $$$$ are meaningless to me); 2) hope Santana forces the Twins hand by saying he really isn’t interested in signing a contract with anyone else; 3) take a play out of Hankenstein’s handbook, put together a reasonable package (no more than 3 top prospects and a low level guy with upside) and set a deadline. My guess is fans would respect that and move on if it didn’t happen.
At least the mets would show some backbone for a change.
All that said, I keep feeling that if the Yankees unload Matsui, they sign a FA CFer (I hate the lame buzz, but I read this morning they have interest in Corey Patterson) and include Kennedy (and all of his 19 Major League innings) for Johan.
just saying as a fan, $$$$ are meaningless to me
If the Mets overpay financially for Santana, say $25M/year for 6 years, how will the Mets not use that as an excuse to jack up ticket prices for 2008 and beyond (moreso than they normally would)?
I know the Wilpons have multiple revenue streams from Sterling Mets, but that doesn’t mean they won’t use a big dollar sigining as an excuse to raise prices under the rationale that people will pay more to see a big name.
Luckily I live in SF, so ticket prices at Citifield have no bearing on me. Also, and more luckily, when I go to games, they are usually coporate seats, freebies.
And it is all supply and demand! $4 a gallon for gas, $10 beers. If I can’t afford it, I’ll buy a Prius and drink Schlitz at home.
Nice ballpark you have out there.
But for those of us who live in New York and can attend games at Shea/Citifield, big dollar contracts will have a bearing on us.
So $$$$ are meaningful to me, as a NY-based fan. That said, I would rather the Wilpons overpay in $$$$ rather than empty the farm system for Santana. But if no one is willing to pay $25M/year, the Wilpons should hold firm, especially if Santana has really indicated a preference to play for the Mets.
Isn’t it all relative?
I mean, who cares what your ticket prices are if the team sucks? I have a full-season package, and I hear what you are saying about the prices.
However, I am more apt to pay a bit more for my tickets if it means picking up a stud, top of the rotation pitcher than I am to be happy about my already over-priced tickets to see a mediocre team.
I agree. I have a Tues/Fri package and would gladly pay a bit more if it means Santana would be on the Mets.
As I said below, I was just pointing out that a big dollar contract will have an impact upon us NY-based fans, so the dollars are not meaningless to me.
sorry to jack this thread…i’m waiting on my renewal so i can upgrade to full season…anyone gotten theirs?
I haven’t. They are probably waiting to see how the offseason turns out before making any decisions on ticket prices for 2008.
They’re going to jack up the prices anyway. They research the threshold to which fans will pay and beyond which fans will not pay, then they maximize the price to which the most dollars can be made. Whether they get Santana, they are jacking up ticket prices to meet this threshold.
Right, but a big dollar contract for Santana would justify an even larger increase in ticket prices than they normally would do (e.g., a 6-8% increase with Santana rather than a 4% increase without).
I’m not saying this in the hope that the Wilpons will be frugal. I’m just mentioning it in reaction to multiple postings from several people saying (in effect) “who cares how much it costs to get Santana?” There will be an impact on ticket prices (and probably at the concession stands) for those of us attending games at Shea/Citifield.
How do you think investors in the other business lines of Sterling would feel if Wilpon took profits from them to pay for Johan Santana? Come on.
i agree, but you know he’s not gonna do it. he’s gonna continue to just get used by the twins.
And that is exactly what is happening here. With the Yankees apparently out of the picture for the time being, the Twins can’t afford to lose the Mets. This would leave the Red Sox at the table negotiating against themselves. Then they would have no reason to give up Bucholtz and Ellsbury.
Johan’s desire to play for the Mets is only helping the Twins keep them involved so that they can more out of Boston.
Maybe this is a dumb question, but if Santana has a preference on where he wants to pitch, why wouldn’t he just tell the Twins, “Trade me to the Mets [or whoever] or I won’t sign a contract extension and will just become a free agent next year and go where I want?” I gotta assume that if he had a strong preference he would do that.
I think a trade to any team is contingent upon a 72 hour window to negotiate a long term deal with Santana.
But, what if he pitches in Minnesota this year and gets injured or has a horrible year? That’s a lot of money to lose.
The Mets have no shot at Santana because they will never pay what it takes to get him. It would take a serious change in thinking about giving a pitcher a greater contract than 4 or 5 years and the Mets are unwilling to do that. Anyone that thinks they would are deluding themselves. So enough about this Santana nonsense. It’s not happening.
according to todays rumors on SI.com the Red Sox are offering two seperate deals, one including Ellsbury & others and one including Lester & others, i don’t see how they’ve stepped up their offer
I can see it now…Omar bashing will commence soon….
In 3…2…1…
No way I give up that much for him. If I am going to literally empty the farm system, I’d ratehr it be for Haren and Blanton.
Why would you think that emptying the Met farm system would net you both Haren and Blanton? I don’t think it would be enough. The A’s are not in the same situation with their guys that Minnesota is in with Santana. If the Twins don’t trade Johan, they risk losing him for nothing more than compensatory draft picks when he leaves via free agency. The A’s don’t have that concern…yet.
That’s not happenin either so…..
gonna save firemetsmanagement the time:
freddie coupons
open the checkbook
minaya sucks
ante up freddie
you forgot:
need to make a big splash
done with this team
And my personal favorite:
willie sucks
Well, that part is true….
how did you guys leave off mickey mouse franchise. thats the STAPLE of firemetmanagement/mr. met.
ahh yes thank you.
LOL Great post….
you guys forgot. Omar is trading 4 light skinned players for one dark skinned, etc….
OmarMinaya is one of the best general managers in baseball. It is sick how you mroons love to run superstars out of NY. I hope if he ever does get fired you have to endure 15 years of Jim Duquette as our GM for your repentment from running the best GM since the 86 days out of here. You stupid ignorant monkeys.
Enough with the Santana stuff already. The Mets aren’t going to get him, and if they do make the trade, the Mets will not pay him 25 million a year. I don’t want Santana and I don’t want to hear about the Mets acquiring him either. It’ll just make it less painful if the rumors and presumptions end now.
You don’t want him, so you want everyone else to stop talking about him so that you don’t have to hear about him?
Sure…
Isn’t your screen nae a cartoon character?
isn’t yours a mythilogical hero?
I have to admit it.
My screen name is inspired by a cartoon character on a Nickelodeon television show that I enjoy watching with my 6-year-old son.
Unfortunately, I can’t watch baseball 24/7.
Just a reference to an old basketball injury! Ended up being a nickname.
Funny, the reason I know is my 6 year old daughter!
I’m just getting tired or the rumors and getting excited that we’re in the running then next minute we’re nowhere near a deal. The Twins are pulling everyones chain and will not trade him until June or July when a desperate team will overpay for his services. That’s why.
LOL! I just posted the same thing! :-)
Matt, if you are correct o this god bless you.. but I for one can’t seriously beleive the only thing standing between the Mets and Santana is a 7 year contract..
No other newspaper or media outlet is reporting anything close to this type of progress in talks with the Twins and Mets…
So again.. god bless you if you have this correct, but I for one think the idea that we’re so close to getting Santna that it’s just about the contract, and that no one else is aware of this, is very very hard to believe.
He never said that we were close to getting Santana. Only that our position had improved.
At least we can laugh at the 200 million dollar a year 2nd place Yankees if Sox land Santana.
Intersting that no one has mentioned Omar’s total mishandling of the questions about Heilman on the Hotstove Report. Berkhardt actually had to save Omar from himself by explaining that Heilman was more valuable as a releiver (rob peter to pay paul) instead of Omar running down Heilman’s trade value by saying he sucked as a starter, and the numbers proved it.
Omar really needs to lock himself in his office, along with Willie who also runs down his own players in the press (see Carlos Gomez comments from last week) instead of giving legnthy interviews that weaken their trade position.
And who was that other guy interviewing Omar?
Just funny.
Yeah, Omar is lowering the trade value of his guys by coming on Mets Hot stove report. Some of you guys are beyond ignorant. I just dont know a word for it right now. I am pretty sure Heilman doesnt have much trade value to begin with, and I am also sure that he knows much more about baseball then you ever will. BHut if you really like to feel important and cool pretend you are picking up meaningful information on an awful hot stove report show that gives u no new information anyway. Good job champ.
I lean towards “all in” as long as I can keep F-Mart and either Perlfrey, Mulvey or Guerra.
I think along these lines: Church, Gomez, Humber, Mulvey, Heilman.
I’m all in as well. But I’d like to keep FMart and Humber. Maybe throw in Heilman instead of Humber.
What if the Twins have no interest in Church? We can’t just trade him because you consider him to be a spare part.
Well, then these guys just substitute Gotay. That is the staple part that seems to seal the deal in most of these wantabe GM’s minds!
im all in, if we get santana and we hold on to fmart ill consider it a total steal. nothing against our pitching prospects but honestly none of them will even smell santanas success in their career. plus if we sign livan to be the 5th starter that gives us 6 starters for 5 rotation spots which will hopefully prevent having to deal witht he likes of brian lawrence etc ever again. then we just use our 3 1st/sandwhich picks this year to restock the farm.
I get the argument that none of our pitchers in this “proposed deal” will likely amount to what Santana has already done in his career. That is probably true. Also it would be true of Bucholz and Chamberlain and Hughes to almost the same degree. Cy Young pitchers do not grow on trees.
but….is it out of the question that one or maybe two of them become John Maine? or Mike Mussina? or Jeremy Bonderman or Steve Trachsel or Olliver Perez or El Duque or Livan or whomever?
Meaning….while they may not evolve into the top pitcher in the game, there is a far greater likelihood that they become ML pitchers with some viability for the team.
If we had 5 John Maines on our team rather than Santana , Maine and 3 Carlos Silvas, we would win more games. We would be a lock for a division title.
Point is basically, a rotation does not have to be all aces. It can be a bunch of good number 3’s and one number 2.
One problem with that theory is that is Pelfrey, Humber, Mulvey were to get a signifcant amount of starts next year, we would run into the same problem we ran into last year. Last year, the bullpen went south, because the starters weren’t going deep into games and forcing us to go the bullpen early. Usually, young pitchers don’t log allot of innings, due to lack of strength, experience, etc. That would mean, that the when these guys are starting, the likelyhood is that they will be out by the 5th or 6th inning.
That is why we targeted a young ace, who can pitch deeper into games. Pelfrey, Humber and Mulvey aren’t ready for that role yet. Maybe never.
Yep, then we have to go out and give Johan Santana 7/150 (aka the new worst contract in baseball history) and sign a league average RF to a huge contract. Good plan.
if the Corey Patterson/ Yankee rumors are true, its a heart break
I had 3 FA wishes when the season ended,Silva,Iguchi & Patterson. Thought they’d all be simple signings and all made
sense. Instead we’ve got ‘ole unreliable,always hurt,ever aged
Moises back in Left and ‘ole Crippled knees and hips/bad
influence Luis back @ second and No one to eat innings and
help the Pen.—But, I’m sure “O the great one” has a plan. Right?
Well as far as I know, Silva is still available and will be until he drops his demands. At that point we may very well still sign him if we have not acquired an Ace. As for Patterson, I would much rather have Church and it would have been very stupid to let one of our most productive hitters walk for only 8 million or so. I don’t care how old he is. If Gomez is not traded, he can be brought up when Alou goes down.
You are making fun of Omar, yet your offseason goals were to get Carlos Silva, a guy who is a AAA pitcher, gives up millions of hits and hpmeruns, and wants a 4/40 contract. Another goal is too sign, Iguchi, who is more or less awful. And your last part of the plan was to sign Corey PAtterson, aka I swign at everything, bat 240, and play good de and thats it. Good plan d bag
I hate to admit it but I have to say that I wouldn’t do this trade. I want Santana on this team badly and, frankly, I don’t care about the 7 year contract. What concerns me is that we’ll have to give up our future to win now which is no guarantee anyway. We might have a winning team now but a losing one for years to come if we don’t have good pitching prospects. I’m on the fence with this one but i’m hanging on the “don’t do this trade” side of it with my feet off the ground.
The thing that keeps coming to mind when I see 5 or 6 players mentioned is Hershel Walker. Talk about changing the face of 2 franchises.
yea but there were draft picks involved in that too which played a big role and you cant trade draft picks in the majors, not really the same. @ blueandorangetears, i understand your concern about hurting the future but keeping guys liek wright reyes beltran maine and perez gives us an excellent core for the next 5 years and by then id hope we would have developed some new pitching prospects. like i said earlier if you can trade for santana using just prospects and keeping fmart its a total steal no matter how many guys it takes.
Give them whoever they want. With Santana, Maine, and Perez we will have 3/5 of an excellent rotation for years. We can fill in with the Pedro’s and Hernandez’s of the world or go get some 4 or 5’s on the market or trades. and draft some decent prospects(PLEASE). Pay the MAN what he wants!! He will get it from someone.
I am on the fence about this. While getting Santana for a bunch of guys who haven’t done anything yet seems to be a no-brainer, the Mets have been down this road before.
The last time the Mets traded with the Twins for a 29 year old, star lefty pitcher (Frank Viola), they gave up 3 pitching prospects (David West, Kevin Tapani, and Tim Drummond) and an established young pitcher who had just been moved to the bullpen (Rick Aguilera).
Viola had one good year for the Mets (1990), three average to below average years with the Mets and Sox, then hung around the majors for three more years before retiring.
Aguilera collected 311 saves with the Twins, Sox and Cubbies, and stands 14th All-time.
Tapani won 141 games for the Twins, Dodgers, White Sox and Cubs.
West never amounted to much, having one good year with the Phils as a reliever.
Drummond was a reliever for the Twins in 89-90, then never made it back to the bigs.
Obviously Santa is a major star, but there is always a chance that he could get hurt or just “lose it” (doubtful). Is it worth the risk to trade away all your prospects, then tie up $20M+/year for 5-7 years?
The Viola trade was a no-brainer. Obtaining Viola gave the Mets a 1-2 punch that few teams in baseball at the time could compete with. The biggest problem was that I don’t really think Frank ever really wanted to be here.
Aguilera was an underachieving relief pitcher at the time, and was never going to get the opportunity he was afforded with the Twins.
Tapani won his share of games at the ML level, but he was never anything spectacular. He was simply a serviceable pitcher.
West was probably the centerpiece of the deal for the Twins, but he and Drummond wound up being non-factors in the ML’s.
The trade for Viola and a potential one for Santana have virtually nothing in common. The young talent going to the Twins is apparently far superior to the guys who went for Viola. And Santana is pitching on a completely different level than Viola did even in his prime.
Danny, I still would have made the trade, but at that time Aggie had just about turned his career around as a dominant set up man. There was no telling however that Aggie would turn into the great closer he would become.
I’m still on the fence on this particular scenario. It does seem like a lot (though if it excluded one of the pitching prospects, I’d probably be on board). I might be on board here if I knew more about the talent in next year’s draft class. Right now we’ve got 3 picks in the first 35-40, and if Minaya is determined to address our past problems with slotting, there’s a chance we could go from losing Pelfrey, Humber, Mulvey, and Guerra to getting three very high-level college arms back immediately. If it’s a bad draft year, on the other hand, it could spell big trouble.
I’ve been a big supporter of the idea to pay real high for Santana, but this sort of proposal (if it’s true) is just ludicrous. The Yankees offer 1 legit prospect and an average CFer and say no more. The Red Sox offer either 1 true prospect or another, along with B level prospects, and say no more.
Why should the Mets have to give up every single thing on the farm for this guy? Even if the Mets prospects are not as good as the other team’s (something only actual MLB performance will prove), the price is slanted and ridiculous.
I’d love Santana on this team for a shot at a title in 2008, but at some point you realize you’re not making a deal - you’re getting completely robbed and plundered.
If this is what Minnesota truly wants, walk away like the Yankees did. Then the Twins will see what sort of offer the Red Sox will give them.
I voted YES in the poll. I would not go beyond that. But I’d do that deal. The Mets have 3 first round draft picks for the June draft. They can re-stock the system then.
How often do you get the chance to trade for a bona fide ace?
Has anyone checked out some of the Minnesota blogs on this topic? It seems like the Twins’ fans are much higher on our prospects than anyone else, including Mets fans. It was refreshing to read, considering all of the negativity on here.
You see- with Freddie Coupons it always comes down to $$. I certainly hope it wouldn’t come down to not wanting to offer a 6 or 7 year deal…that would be a real indictment and would be the last straw for Freddie Coupons.
The biggest roadblock HAD BETTER NOT BE the unwillingness to offer 6 or 7 years…
The biggest roadblock should be the players that the Twins would agree to- the contract had better be an afterthought Freddie Coupons. As Ed Coleman said when I talked to him on WFAN- “if it came down to $ holding up the deal, that would be wrong on the Mets part.”
And Ed is a company man- if he says it’d be wrong, you know its wrong.
“You see- with Freddie Coupons it always comes down to $$. I certainly hope it wouldn’t come down to not wanting to offer a 6 or 7 year deal…that would be a real indictment and would be the last straw for Freddie Coupons.”
First of all, it is absolutely hilarious that a loser-nobody like you is giving ultimatums to a filthy rich owner, who you cant do a dam thing to. Second of all, even if they gave us Johan for free, I wouldnt consider giving him 7 years at the price he wants. You arent smart. Mike Hampton was pretty good til he got an 8 year deal too.
The only guy who should not be traded is David Wright. Everyone else could go if it meant getting Santana. The Mets farm system sucks. Everyone in it combined will never equal Santana’s current value. Trade them all.
Awesome, so then we have no farm system. I don’t understand why no one cares about the future. It’s going to be very hard to compete with the AL, and getting santana will give us maybe 7-8 wins over Tommy. But our team still has to hit, we still have to play defense, and hold a lead with our bullpenn.
As it stands now, Pedro, Wagner, Alou, Delgado, won’t be here much longer than 1 season. If we sell our farm, how do we make a trade to replace any of those guys, or get a young releiver to strengthen our pen. I really don’t want to cripple the prime years of Wright and Reyes to get a pitcher; even if he is the best in the game. What good is having franchise players if your team stinks. Just ask Jason Bay.
“The only guy who should not be traded is David Wright. Everyone else could go if it meant getting Santana. The Mets farm system sucks. Everyone in it combined will never equal Santana’s current value. Trade them all.”
See, another completely unsubstantiated and ignorant post. I dont even think it would be worth it to trade one top prospect for him. We are only trading for one year of Santana.
We would be giving away 29 years of high upside talent for one year of Santana in this proposal. And then giving him a world record contract for a pitcher. I am glad we have Omar and not most of you guys running the team.
For a guy who thinks he’s so smart you really dont know much. For one year of Santana? Then a record breaking contract? Trade for Santana will be for 6 to 7 years, 5 if we can. You see, the whole deal, as everyone else seems to know but you, would all be contingent on signing him to an extension. You offer him what your willing to give. If he doesnt accept it, there is no trade. The trade is voided. Thats why there’s a 72 hour trading window, to negotiate. Being that he has a no-trade clause if he didnt get what he wanted, he just refuses to be traded to that team. Then no one changes hands. Plain and simple. If you know what he wants, and your not willing to give it, you dont bother attempting to trade for him at all. Oh, and dont bother with the monkey thing I’m sure you’re going to call me because after reading most of your post, you have no credibility here, just someone with some anger issues.
Also, for those preferring Haren or Bedard, neither of those two will come cheaply either. But more important, neither has veto rights over their next destination. The A’s and O’s can pick and choose their trade partners, but the Twins cannot. Johan has considerable influence in their decision. So the Mets have a better chance to get Johan than Bedard or Haren.
It’s either Johan now, or take a chance he’s a free agent a year from now along with Sabathia.
I would actually propose: Carlos Gomez, Mike Pelfrey, Aaron Heilman and two high-grade minor leaguers for Johan Santana.
Now if the Mets actually ended up acquiring and signing Santana to a long-term contract in the high $100 million total, you can bet that prices for Citi Field in 2009 when it opens will be jacked. You can hear the cash register going CHA-CHING!! Besides, Fred Coupons would make that money back in a heart beat - with the money Citigroup is giving them for the stadium naming rights.
I would think a 5 year deal with an option for a 6th and a 7th year based on performance and post-season awards (MVP, Cy Young) should be enough to sign Santana.
I would put Carlos Gomez and Jacoby Ellsbury at even par speed for speed as well as potential. What Ellsbury did down the stretch and in the playoffs wouldn’t carry over into next season. However, his performance certainly got everyone’s attention (myself included).
Secondly, had Gomez not been injured - who knows what his numbers would have looked like. I would guess anywhere between .260 and .275, close to 30SB’s and a high OBP for a Center Fielder who was playing either left or right, or occassionally spelling Beltran in center. Last but not least, I agree with a previous post: the Mets will be possessing 3 first round picks in the 2008 draft - one of them a sandwich pick between the first and second round. Fred Coupons and Mr. Minaya: if this comes down to money - JUST FRIGGIN’ DO IT!! He’s no Barry Zito or Kevin Brown! Just think of the rewards the young Met pitchers coming up could learn by watching Johan Santana. You can always rebuild the minor league system if you draft right and select players who can make a definitive impact on the Major League level.
As much as I love Santana, I’m not willing to sell of the entire farm for him. Win now is one thing, but getting him is going to create holes in our outfield, and future pitching staff.
Trade the farm and give him seven years. Have some balls Metsfans! This is for a once in a generation pitcher - a surefire Hall of Famer in his prime!
Jesus. They are only prospects. And very average ones at that.
I agree completely. Two-time Cy Young Award winner vs. prospected. I’ll take menu item #1 please. And why do folks care about the length of the contract? Sign him to seven years and know that you’ll have the best pitcher in the game for the majority of those years.
“And why do folks care about the length of the contract? ”
Find one contract for a pitcher for 7 or more years that has worked out. The only one even close is Pedro’s 6 year deal with Boston. Other then that, any other big pitching contract has been awful.There is lika 1 percent chance the Mets get Santana anyway, so this is basically moot.
Wouldn’t call them average.
Take out Guerra, add Heilman & Gotay.
Seal the deal.
I wonder if it’s tampering for Omar to say something like “We think that next year’s free agent class will be stronger than this year’s group. So, if any of them want to be part of our organization, we want to wait the year for them and have a stronger team waiting for them, rather than bankrupt their future by gutting our farm system just to get them here sooner.”
Trading everyone for Santana? My initial reaction was no, but I am going to reflect back over my vote.
Some reasons to like the deal:
A) The Mets can keep Heilman and Martinez, which is pretty nice.
B) They’ll have three top of the rotation guys for the next 7 years.
C) It allows the Mets to be creative with their signings for a 5 starter. (i.e. start El Duque and sign Freddy Garcia for 2 years).
Some reasons that the deal isn’t so great:
A) We lose 4 pretty good pitchers in Guerra, Pelfrey, Mulvey and Humber. Granted, there will be more prospects.
B) Guerra’s value hasn’t peaked. He had a 4.01 ERA in high-A ball. I’m sure the Mets can benefit from him staying on the team, more than he cam reel in from a trade.
C) Could be too hasty. The Orioles may want a different type of low cost deal from the Mets, or Haren from the A’s.
I’d sit comfortably knowing that we replaced Guerra with Heilman.
My offer is Carlos Gomez, Aaron Heilman, Kevin Mulvey, Philip Humber, Mike Pelfrey & Ruben Gotay for Johan Santana.
The next play would be to sign Kevin Mench, Freddy Garcia and Octavio Dotel to 2 year deals.
Rotation: Santana, Martinez, Perez, Maine, Hernandez/Garcia (Garcia will help late in the year when Hernandez gets injured or tires out.)
Bullpen: Feliciano, Schoeneweis, Smith, Sanchez, Dotel, Wagner
Lineup: Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Alou/Mench, Delgado, Church/Mench, Schneider
To summarize the post I just made:
Gomez, Heilman, Pelfrey, Mulvey, Humber & Gotay for Santana.
Dotel, Garcia & Mench to 2 year deals.
Thoughts appreciated.
So, you wanna give up all 3 hopefuls humber,pel & mulvey
along w/heilman.
then, wanna sign 2 guys w/ bad armswhos best days are
behind them??—Is that you Omar??
I really don’t care about anyone’s best years.
The fact is, Santana, Martinez, Perez, Maine & Hernandez is a rotation I’d go the season with.
But of course, Martinez and Hernandez aren’t guarantees to go the whole year. Garcia comes back in June. He can bullpen and split starts with Duque. Mets can sign Matt Wise to spot start in Martinez’s position late in the season.
Dotel is a hardballer who is good. I don’t care what you think about his best years. He would be a solid righty from the bullpen.
Santana, Maine & Perez are three great pitchers that will last a very long time. I have hope in Niese and Guerra. If you are so high on our prospects, I’m sure you’ll like the idea of Santana, Maine, Perez, Niese & Guerra.
“So, you wanna give up all 3 hopefuls humber,pel & mulvey
along w/heilman.
then, wanna sign 2 guys w/ bad armswhos best days are
behind them??—Is that you Omar?”
Are you somehow trying to ensue thAt Omar is a bad general manager? If you are, you should be embarrased. Benson for Maine and El Duque essentially. Nady for Perez. Those 2 moves alone outweigh anything bad he has done by about 100 times. Ignorant people who act like they know what they are talking about. Absolutely nothing more funny, or irritating for that matter
comment
you are a Mensch
Who’ll play short or third if God forbid one of them goes down? Or when they need a day off? Or do you expect them to play all 162 games? What if Castillo goes down for any length of time? Going to have Easley play there for more then a couple of games? What happened to defense up the middle? Stop with all the trade Gotay talk. It’s not going to happen, he’s needed for that role. There’s noone in the organization ready to take on that role, and no one on the FA market that can do it. Dont say Anderson Hernandez either, he hasnt shown anything great defensively and he cant even hit his own weight, nevermind that he doesnt play those other positions. What happened when they were signing Castillo and everybody was saying why cause they thought Gotay could do the job defensively good enough and might hit better then Castillo? Gotay is going to be here, there is no choice.
I have no problem at all if Omar made this deal to net Santana. We have 3 very good draft picks this year and can rebuild our farm system in a second if we don’t cheap out on the players. Omar should stop targetting rp’s like he did in last year’s draft. You’ve got to figure that some high priced guys will fall to us at the 18 spot.
Look at Santana’s numbers the last 4 years, he is amazingly consistent, and amazingly good. We get to keep F-Mart in this proposal. With a strong draft we can rebuild our farm team in no time.
Look how quickly the Yanks and Sox built up their systems. I don’t like giving away the farm, but if there was EVER a player to do it for, it’s Johan.
Thats what I have been trying to tell everyone. We are signing a free agent to a record contract, and gutting our farm, essentially. 5 or 6 years of any one blue chip prospectshould be enough for 1 year of Santana. At this point I dont even think I’d want to do Gomez straight up. Thats mostly because I wouldnt even sign him to the contract that he wants if he was on the open market. There is no way to justify a 7/150 deal for a pitcher. I dont care if he is Santana, Seaver, and Koufax all miced into one. It cannot be justified.
Furthermore, the Twins should try to trade with the MEts. All their prospects eitehr are not as far along as some or have had cups of coffee in the bigs and they ddint go so well. Doesnt mean the talent is there. They could end up with the best package from the Mets because they have to offer more in quantity of players because they arnet proven for whatever reason. I would offer themm F-Mart and Pelfrey, take it or leave it. They are not getting Gomez from me.
NRmax88,
What is your fixation with Gomez? I think he is way more of a wildcard then F-Mart. F-Mart is a natural power hitter, thats a natural hitter. He can be a Pujols or a Miggy Cabrera. That’s too good to let him go by.
Gomez on the other hand, could be Carl Crawford or he could be Alex Ochoa, Jason Tyner, Roger Cedeno, or Dario Rosario. Last year we saw that he was over matched by major league pitching and that he does not have a good understanding of the strike zone. He can not work a count to his favor, while Lastings looked liked a better hitter last year and this.
John Heyman just said on WFAN that the Mets were unwilling to include both Gomez and Martinez in the Santana trade, and if they did, it would have probably got done.
Oh Boy…, Sorry, you’ve got to do that deal.
Omar is playing it cool
deep down he knows he has to do something
odds of getting half way through the season with Pedro & El Duque healthy?
near zero
odds of either Pelfrey or Humber being effective
low
odds Delgado rebounding
low
our chances
slim
maybe I should become a Nats fan for a year
big picture, if all these bad things happen, having Santana is going to be enough to get them to the playoffs anyway.
Plus, they would have traded all their possible AAA replacements for the guys that got hurt.
So basically, they can be a sub .5oo team with Santana in the rotation, just like the Twins!
14th brooklyn…
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[...] December 11 i wrote, “From what I can gather, the Rangers are the third team in this mix, not the Yankees, [...]
I’m going to go ahead and say that none of those pitchers will be a Santana type pitcher, not even close.
I have to agree, most prospects never pan out and teams really seem to be holding on to their prospects.