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In a recent report for SI.com, citing ‘people familiar with those talks,’ Jon Heyman writes…
‘The Mets offered different packages of prospects that included either outfielder Carlos Gomez or outfield prospect Fernando Martinez but not both, declining to include the one extra prospect the Twins requested to clinch the deal according to people familiar with those talks.’
…the way i have heard it, also from people connected to these talks, the Twins want gomez plus four pitching prospects…yes, four…so, based on my understanding, coupled with heyman’s, i think it’s safe to assume that the Mets offered gomez and three pitching prospects, the Twins countered by asking for a fourth pitcher or martinez, and the Mets declined…
…for what it’s worth, over the weekend, i did suggest the two sides were fairly close to agreeing on players for a trade, if they hadn’t already…frankly, i didn’t think it was that close, though…but, wow, i guess it was…
…if this deal could be so close, i am back to having hope again…man, i’m getting dizzy…are you…
…it’s a tough one…i have to assume that at least three of the pitchers are Mike Pelfrey, Phil Humber and Kevin Mulvey, while the fourth could be Joe Smith or Deolis Guerra, though i suppose it could be Aaron Heilman, as well – though he’s far from a pitching prospect at this point…
…it is a lot to give up…it really is, and i can understand the trepidation…but, man, to be that close and pass…jeez…
Earlier today, MetsBlog asked if the Mets should trade Pelfrey, Humber, Mulvey, Guerra and Gomez to the Twins for Santana, who will also require a seven-year contract, and only 56 percent of the 2,400 respondents essentially said, ‘Yes, the Mets should make the trade.’
According to Heyman, while talking to WFAN this afternoon, Boston’s interest is quite ‘cool,’ and – if he had to guess – he still believes that the Yankees will end up acquiring Santana.
…from what i can gather out of people connected to santana, though, is the Yankees have been very, very quiet of late…and, additionally, santana is not too excited about playing in the Bronx, while preferring the Mets then the Red Sox…
…frankly, i think it’d pull the trigger on the pitcher-heavy package, while keeping martinez, and adding Johan Santana to John Maine and Oliver Perez for the next few seasons…my hand will be shaking while doing so, but i think i’d have to do it…
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“Mets Rejected offer for Santana”
RIP..me
Gomez, Pelfrey, Humber, Mulvey and Guerra
DING DING DING DING C’MON WE KEEP OUR BEST PROSPECT EVEN PROSPECTS ALWAYS DEVELOP..ALWAYS!!
DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wtf is the hold-up?
Do it rotten.
I’d put Heilman in there and seal the damn deal.
Yeah, you have to give to get. Empty the system. Back up the truck. We’ll feel stupid if 3/5 of a top rotation is Mulvey, Pelfrey and Humber, sure, but in no way is any of them going to approach Santana. You never say never, typically, but . . . come on, now. We keep F-Mart and guys like Kunz, Vineyard, and Muniz. Meanwhile, we have a core of three young starters in Santana, Perez and Maine. The holes at 4 and five can be filled cheaply in the coming years. Famous last words, I know, but . . .
I have just read the entire thread and am thoroughly embarassed to be in the company of so many unintelligent or at least misguided fans.
I KNOW IT IS SANTANA AND HE IS THE BEST PITCHER IN THE GAME.
I also know that we have just one current pitcher signed to a deal beyond this year. OP, Pedro and Duque are all free to go elsewhere at the conclusion of the season. You can not by any means trade all 3 of the Pelfrey, Humber and Mulvey trio. One of them has to be around for injury replacement this year and one of them has to be around to populate the future rotation at least some.
If not….and all are traded, our only option is to sign one of the Silva/Jennings/Kris Benson/ Freddy Garcia/Livan Hernandez crew as insurance.
Can you imagine what the negotiation with Pedro will be like or OP…..
Omar….we’d like to talk extensionn with you OP
Perez…OK what was the deal you gave Santana 7yrs and 25M. I’ll take 7yrs at $15M since I am younger and less established than him.
Omar… UGGHH
OMAR TO PEDRO…Lets talk extension….
Pedro…OK Omar. How about 4 yrs and $80M. I realize I am older than Santana but I have more Cy Youngs than him.
Omar…UGGHH
Why are the contract demands any different if he signs with another team?
A deal for Santana has to be similar to what the Yanks and Sox are offering with the one caveat that they can have 2 pitchers instead of one because Pelfrey Humber and Mulvey are not as good as Hughes or Lester yet.
Lets see….the Yanks were offering a 4th outfielder, Phillip Hughes and a B level pitching prospect in A ball.
Sox were offering Lester, a lousy 4th outfielder, a 2nd tier shortstop and who again??
Bottom line, none of them were offering 4 pitchers plus a top outfield prospect. Sox said you want Ellsbury, then no Lester.
We do this deal if it is
1) 1 from group of Humber, Pelfrey and Mulvey
2) 1 from group of Heilman and Guerra
3) 1 from group of Fmart and Gomez
4) 1 from group of Vineyard, Rustich, Dylan Owen and Joe Smith
That is it. Anymore than that and we are getting raped and it will cost us our season next year and the year after by not being able to use our farm for reinforcements if needed.
Imagine Ben Johnson and Caleb Stewart in the outfield.
Imagine Lima and Jeremi Gonzalez again in the rotation
Imagine Mike Carp or some other non ready retread taking over for Delgado when he gets hurt.
Disaster would be getting him for the package discussed.
I’d rather trade Reyes then dump the entire farm and have nothing on the team next season.
This is a classic case of overvaluing prospects. If you trade Reyes, you have completely gutted the offense . . . but hey, at least you’re in marginally better shape if your fourth starter goes down! Pelfrey and Mulvey could turn into aces, sure, but more likely we’re talking about a pair of Glendon Rusches, at best. Why anyone would think of either as a foregone conclusion as either (1) leverage negotiating with Perez or (2) insurance for Duque or Pedro is beyond me.
And I really don’t think this would change the OF dynamic much, given that Gomez really ought to spend a year in AAA, anyway. I’d rather have Caleb Stewart out there than rush Gomez.
sane thoughts GWG
how about
1) 1 from group of Humber, Pelfrey and Mulvey
2) 1 from group of Heilman and SMITH
3) 1 from group of CHURCH and Gomez
4) 1 from group of Vineyard, Rustich, Dylan Owen, Kuntz or Neise
Fmart and Delios HAVE TO BE off the table…
Heilman or Smith has to be in the deal
and include one of the two college relievers or another Vineyard/Neise type.
thats A lot but should be plenty for the privilege of paying 150 mil over 7 years
Vineyard, Rustich, Owen, and Kunz are all untradeable. You’re not permitted to trade someone within a year of drafting him. It’s feasible that it could be done as a PTBNL, but I believe even then the player has to be named within 6 months, and that couldn’t happen in this case.
Also, gowrightgo, in addition to pretty significantly overvaluing the Mets’ prospects (not to mention overstating the Mets’ reliance on their prospects), you’re also pretty significantly undervaluing the other teams’ packagers. Cabrera’s not a superstar, but he’s a lot more than a 4th outfielder, same with Coco Crisp. Jed Lowrie’s a legit prospect too.
All told though, I think the Mets need to be more concerned with their high end guys than their depth. They have some good picks in this year’s draft and a whole slew of international signees from last year to replenish the depth in the system. My concern is the less-fungible, high-end talent. As far as I’m concerned, if you can get Santana and hang on to Martinez and Guerra, you’ve got to do it. Though I’d probably be willing to switch Humber for Guerra, based on the fact that Guerra’s still mostly projection.
I think Gomez and Pelfrey are currently pretty overvalued, and this is a perfect spot to sell high on them.
first of all..I appreciate the sane reply. Second. I think that Church is actually a better player now and likely to be for the next 3 years than Cabrera and we are all saddened that he is on our team. His value is at least as good as Melky.
too many….I get that you all think I am super valuing our prospects. I may be but in the end…we must have depth for coverage.
As to the Reyes part of my earlier post…I was being coy. I would never trade Reyes for any pitcher period. Not even for Pedro from 2000.
I only brought it up to overemphasize how I would not want to dump 5 prospects in a deal for one pitcher especially 4 of our closest and highest thought of prospects.
Humber and Pelfrey and Mulvey are all educaated crapshoots as to what they become but it is at least as likely that 2 of them are solid #3 types than it is likely they all crap out and are not in the league. I do not think even one of them will have a career like Santana but I think 2 of them could become our current day Maine and I value that more than just 1 ace. Further, I believe Gomez and Fmart and frankly Milledge will be very good outfielders. Some allstars in that group. I also think Heilman is a keeper because we just do not know what Sanchez will be.
Sorry for the length of the post
For all of you who don’t wish to trade 4 pitchers:
Aaron Heilman has a contract ending next year, and is arbitration eligible. It would be wise to trade him now, for the Mets could get severely outbid if he hits the agency, and also he may go to a place where he can start. He’s a setup man with two pitches.
Mike Pelfrey is good. But Johan Santana?
Carlos Gomez has a high value from out of nowhere. Yes, he has speed, but other than that he hasn’t really proven much. Trade him now and avoid having 2 Endy Chavez’s.
Phil Humber hasn’t even had full success at AAA, and he’s 25. He has two pitches, both of which have a lot of work. I don’t see him materializing.
Mulvey is good, and could be up by May. Would you be happy if I replaced him with Deolis Guerra, who is far less projectable, and is of no help next year?
And by the way, OP would be worth every penny in a long term deal.
Gomez, Heilman, Pelfrey, Humber & Guerra for Santana
Still got OP, Maine, Santana & Mulvey around for the years to come…
Happy?
Swap Guerra for Joe SMith and I am begrudgingly in
Guerra’s actually much more projectable than Mulvey. Projectable, as scouts use it, refers to how high a player’s ceiling is. Guerra, if he fulfills his highest potential–unlikely though that may be–projects to a #1 starter. Mulvey, though currently much more likely to make it there, probably tops out as a 3-4 guy. He’s got good pitchability, but not much in the way of stuff. It depends on what you’re looking for, but ultimately it’s much easier to develop what a Mulvey could be than what a Guerra could be.
Also, Humber actually put up some of the better numbers of pitchers in the PCL this year. Granted he was in one of the few pitchers’ parks in what is very much a hitters’ league. But that’s a long way from not having success or, “full success,” as you put it.
Gomez, Heilman, Pelfrey, Humber & JOE SMITH for Santana?
ok.. im in on that one too GWG
Joe Smith is a really great, rare bullpen arm. He could easily be the guy to replace Heilman right now. And after his collapse I doubt he will land you much.
Guerra is a single A pitcher at best right now. While he develops our first round draft pitck starter will soar through the system.
Santana is worth it guys.
Guerra is the pitching equivalent of Fernando Martinez.
He is projected as a future ace. He is 18 years old 6 foot five, throws 95 mph with excellent command, an exceptional change up (rated as the best in the system) and a developing curve ball.in fact, his curveball went from nothing to a plus pitch last year in A Ball .. He completely dominated low A ball as a 17 year old and spend high A working on his curveball before he had some late season shoulder soreness.
He should be in the majors in 2 years easy.
giving this guy up as part of ANY DEAL would be a collasal mistake.
Fine, fine, fine. Mr. Stubborn.
Let’s think about this thoroughly.
The Twins demand 2 A- prospects, 1 B+ prospect, and 1 B prospect. (Ellsbury + Lester, Masterson and Kalish)
Here is something I’d suggest:
1 A- Hitter: Carlos Gomez or Fernando Martinez
1 A- Pitcher: Mike Pelfrey
1 B+ Pitcher: Aaron Heilman
1 B Pitcher: Jon Niese or Kevin Mulvey
Gomez/Martinez, Pelfrey, Heilman & Niese/Mulvey.
Add Brant Rustich or Ruben Gotay or Phil Humber as bargainingship.
fine fine fine…
CarGo, Pelf, Heilman and Niese is a really nice package.
Neise is no slouch. probably the best lefty in the system (not many in the system tho)
I think Heilman is the key to the package b/c it allows them to deal Nathan and give him the closer role.
what prospects would we have left if we made this trade? NONE! We need these young guys in our rotation.
Say wha? The Mets would be lucky if one of Mulvey, Humber or Pelfrey develops into a number 3 by 2009. We’re without bargaining chips if we trade them, true, but I think to the extent that they are bargaining chips, cashing them in on Santana is money well spent.
Too many…..
I think the contract demands on us would be exponentially higher from our own guys and others because we have no one to populate the rotation. We are over the proverbial pickle barrel so to speak if we have no real options in house and 3/5ths of the rotation is up for free agency.
The market is the market. They wouldn’t ask more from us than from another team unless they had some sort of preference for playing elsewhere.
And another thing. Perez has MORE leverage if the Mets DON’T have Santana already in the fold, potentially leaving them with a rotation of Maine, two veterans, and a bunch of unproven rookies???
You are naive to think that the Market is the Market. Take a look at Gagne’s signing. He got $2M more than anyone was offering because the Brewers had a need and he had them over a barrell. I see the same scenario playing out with us. With no near reserves coming up from the minors and only 2 starters signed (Santana in this example and Maine), our desperation would be worse than it is now.
That desperation will cause some serious overpayment in money and years to our own guys
so what if we over pay our guys? we would have santana, maine and perez locked up for a good amount of time. a core of perez, maine, santana, reyes, wright, and an aging carlos beltran would be fine.
The main problem with most posts and fans who are saying trade everyone to get Santana is that they have never seen any of these guys play, so to them they are names that are replaceable by other names, even if those new names don’t have the “potential” as the current guys, so be it.
I understand that none of these guys may be a star, but it is a ton of depth and guys that a lot has been invested in to be key parts of the team — much like Wright and Reyes were a couple of years ago. And I remember people questioning whether or not to trade Wright because he was an unknown.
Have some patience and throw Santana money at CC next year. Last I checked his numbers were better than Johan’s in 2007 anyway.
But again, I think the Mets wind up with Santana. I am just saying not giving up everything the Twins ask for isn’t a bad move, and in a year or two you may have a couple more stars on your team. Last I checked OP and Maine were throw-ins in a deal less than two years ago.
Comment by gowrightgo
2007-12-11 18:09:15
A deal for Santana has to be similar to what the Yanks and Sox are offering with the one caveat that they can have 2 pitchers instead of one because Pelfrey Humber and Mulvey are not as good as Hughes or Lester yet.
Lets see….the Yanks were offering a 4th outfielder, Phillip Hughes and a B level pitching prospect in A ball.
Sox were offering Lester, a lousy 4th outfielder, a 2nd tier shortstop and who again??
Bottom line, none of them were offering 4 pitchers plus a top outfield prospect. Sox said you want Ellsbury, then no Lester.
We do this deal if it is
1) 1 from group of Humber, Pelfrey and Mulvey
2) 1 from group of Heilman and Guerra
3) 1 from group of Fmart and Gomez
4) 1 from group of Vineyard, Rustich, Dylan Owen and Joe Smith
That is it. Anymore than that and we are getting raped and it will cost us our season next year and the year after by not being able to use our farm for reinforcements if needed.
Imagine Ben Johnson and Caleb Stewart in the outfield.
Imagine Lima and Jeremi Gonzalez again in the rotation
Imagine Mike Carp or some other non ready retread taking over for Delgado when he gets hurt.
Disaster would be getting him for the package discussed.
I’d rather trade Reyes then dump the entire farm and have nothing on the team next season.”
why would it cost us next year? it would only make us better next year. none of the players we are talking about trading are going to be ready next year. we would have to be the NL favorites with Johan.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=11215059&postID=2832155772114793552
Rejecting offer gives them footing and also makes Mets look less desperate finally.
I finally have a feeling Mets are getting Santana…
Unless the Bosox come out and make the deal.
exactly this gives them the chance to go back to boston who may decide they really do want santana and dont want even the mets to get him then boom we’re fried. you have a shot you take it you dont wait around for something to happen not when youre desperate im sorry, negotiation tactics only work when both sides are somewhat close on level of need. we are clearly 100% in need of an ace and the twins by no means have to trade him to us.
The Twins aren’t stupid enough to deal him without giving the Mets the chance to at least match the Boston’s offer as best as they can.
And lets not talk about this as being over…..Yankees have made Chamberlain, Cano, Wang untouchable and aren’t willing to deal both Hughes and Kennedy. Red Sox are only willing to deal one of Lester, Ellsbury, and Buchholz, but not two. How is that any different then the Mets trying to make a package around one of Gomez or Martinez, but not both. We only have to budge and offer both if one of them budge. Right now our reported offer is pretty much on the same level as theirs.
Actually, I had read somewhere that Wang was in one of ANSKY’s initial proposals (they seem to have grown weary of his health issues), yet the Twinkies wanted nothing to do with his past-3 contract coupled with any health concerns.
If they couldn’t pull the trigger over one non-can’t miss prospect, they need to throw in the towel. If you’re willing to part with 3 pitchers, 4’s not much of a leap – you’ve already gutted your upper-level farm talent losing 3. That’s what it takes to land the best.
This kind of mentality smacks of a team content to compete, not determined to win.
Fernando Martinez is a Top 20 prospect in the entire game. He is as close to ‘cant-miss’ as you can get.
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
DOOOOOOOOOO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTT!!!
If your strategy, as the Mets have stated, is to win now (i.e. can’t wait for Milledge to mature) then you do the deal.
exactly keeping these guys is hypocritical to the whole “you cant have patience when you want to win championships bs”. i do this deal in a heartbeat. if you can make the trade and keep 1 of the following humber guerra fmart i do it yesterday.
much rather keep mulvey than humber, granted, mulvey’s value has got to be much higher due to humber’s progress back from tommy john
Another good write-up here!
http://www.mlbfleecefactor.com
So you give up Gomez, Pelfrey, Humber, Mulvey already… and all they want is F-Mart who won’t have an impact on the bigs for at least 2 more years or Aaron “I serve up meatballs in big spots” Heilman
WHATS THE HOLD UP???
If the’yre lucky, maybe Gomez and Pelfrey make opening day on the Mets… the rest are a few years away and thats no guarantee
… besides, we get new draft picks every year…. its a crap-shoot
Oh my god.. DO IT OMAR ARE YOU FRIGGEN CRAZY
It’s ok to trade Milledge away to win now.. but a 19 year old or may never play in the majors…
FIRE OMAR!
relax dude
GM: So, you want our player?
extrawhitemeat: Yes, I’ll give you three players.
GM: I’ll give you him for those three players and three more.
extrawhitemeat: DONE!
Do you know what the odds of Kevin Mulvey, Carlos Gomez, even Fernando Martinez ever being relelvant in baseball are?
Like 30% at best.. some said top 20 prospects never falter and are sure things?
Oh my god.. do you have any idea how long the list of top 20s that have BOMBED?
Here’s a few from the BA list over the years.. found at http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/26983.html
#1 Ove all – Josh Hamilton (finally decent in 2007, was #1 in 2001), Rick Ankiel, Ben Grieve, Cliff Floyd (#1 overall in 1994!), Brien Taylor, Todd Van Poppel
#2 Overall – Corey Patterson, Rick Ankiel (again), our favorite Paul Wilson, Ruben Riveria, Andjuar Cedeno, Bend McDonald
#4 Overall is seriously a collection of laughable names – Jeremy Hermedia, Edwin Jackson, Sean Burroughs, John Rauch, Bruce Chen!!! Matt White
And you’re worried about a guy who braely cracks the top 20?
I will miss Pelfrey cause I think he will pull it together, but the rest, in a heartbeat… I will bet a steak dinner no one on the list of Kevin Mulvey, Phillip Humber, and Carlos Gomez is ever releveant in MLB.. seriously look at the link above.. check out tha names.. its like playing Russian Routllete..
If we’re trying to win now, you make this move..
So then explain where all the stars in baseball come from, if they aren’t ex-prospects who made it? Because the guys the Mets replace their best shots at being one of those players will have less chance of being homegrown talent, and the Mets will slowly become the early 00’s Yankees if they don’t take care of the farm in some respect.
And one other thing. You want to play that game, fine. You can name all the prospects who haven’t made it and I can name the small % who did, fine. But how about naming a multi-prospect trade for a big name that worked out for the team getting the big name? They never work out.
How about Steve Henderson, Doug Flynn, Pat Zachry and Dan Norman for Tom Seaver? That one worked out nicely for the Reds.
How about Hubie Brooks, Mike Fitzgerald, Floyd Youmans and Herm Winningham for Gary Carter? That one worked out pretty well for us.
T.J. Mathews, Eric Ludwick and Blake Stein for Mark McGwire? Those three prospects didn’t seem to pan out for the A’s, did they?
Melvin Nieves, Donnie Elliott and Vince Moore for Fred McGriff? Losing all those prospects didn’t cripple the Braves, it launched them to 12 consecutive division titles.
Marty Janzsen, Jason Jarvis and Mike Gordon for David Cone? Boy the Blue Jays really fleeced the Yankees when they loaded up on those prospects, huh?
How about Neil Allen and Rick Ownbey for Keith Hernandez? Does that one count or would the Mets have had to throw in a third crappy prospect too?
I could go on but why bother. The point is, for every trade where the team that gets the big name winds up losing out, there’s another where a team gives away a superstar and winds up with nothing in return. We just tend to forget those.
I make the P deal as well… no way do I give up Martinez and Gomez and three pitchers. If we are willing to trade Gomez, Pelfrey, Humber and Mulvey (AND I’M NOT SURE WE SHOULD BE) is the fourth pitcher really the deal breaker?
My guess is that the fourth pitcher is actually higher — for instance Mulvey – and then the third pitcher is a lower ceiling guy like Smith. Just a hunch – nothing else makes sense.
At least were making progress. It sucks that if we had just said “ok” to a deal, we’d have Johan Santana on our team right now, but I have to agree with Matt that that package is a hell of alot to give up for one guy. I think its a good thing were seriously negotiating with them, and hopefully, before long, we can all agree to a deal and bring Johan to Flushing.
If Santana wants to be with the Mets, he’ll refuse to sign an extension with anyone.
Why would he want to be part of a Mets team in 2009 without Gomez, or a Mets team in 2010 without Gomez or F-Mart or Mulvey?
“Spahn and Sain, and pray for rain” doesn’t work anymore.
Santana – Pedro – Maine – Perez – Pelfrey/Mulvey
Sanchez – Humber – Kunz – Smith – Feliciano
Reyes
Gomez
Wright
Beltran
Texeira – FA after 2008
F-Mart
Castillo
Schneider
that looks like a nice lineup for 2009…
Switch Gomez with Castillo because Castillo is useless in the 7th spot. Sanchez won’t be a closer for us and Pedro would have to resign with us his contract ends after this season. And besides the possibility of us getting a FA pitcher next offseason which would nullify the need of Pelfrey and Mulvey I like the sound of that. And I really do hope the Mets can get Texiera but I know he will have many suitors when he is a FA [the yankees...].
Ante up Freddy Coupons.
Great input.
Just trying to preempt “firemetsmanagement”.
Yes I would pull the trigger too. I’ll take the proven one for those that hav’nt proven anything yet.
you damn skippy…
quality over quantity, santana is better than a motley crew of mediocrity.
Amen….do it Omar. You are the allegedly intelligent part of the Willomar pair…..let’s not crush that impression.
Call them back Ormar please tell them you were only kiddin
Wow – crap in your pants kind of stuff for sure. I guess the Mets would have to do that trade minus Martinez as Matt suggested and yes, it would be a TON to give up, but on the other hand, none of them are “sure things” like Santana. That being said, there is no sure thing.
This is absurd — how can Guerra or Smith or any player not named Maine/Perez/Pedro/Reyes/Wright/Beltran be the guy that prevents the Mets from getting Santana. If the Mets don’t end up with Santana, I’m going ot have some major problems with Omar, and I’ve NEVER voiced any strong anti-Omar opinions — I’ve even backed him on the Bannister and Heath Bell deals. Declining the Gomez and 4 pitchers deal is INSANE.
although, think of what the Tigers gave up in return for Cabrera AND Willis. The Twins are asking for an awful lot for one guy.
Now…maybe if they threw in Nathan…
My thinking as well. Sure, they can have Heilman, Pelfrey, Mulvey, Gomez and F-Mart and another low level prospect. But…we want Nathan back along with Santana.
A Smith or Guerra would not be the player to hold up the deal, which leads me to believe that Heyman’s sources are not as trustworthy as he’d like to think…And thats not exactly a stretch.
Omar considers Guerra to be the same level prospect as F Mart.. i think Omar would cringe real real hard before giving either of these two up..
Delios Guerra — if you read the clippings is an 18 yo 6′5″ venezualan who throws 95+ with wonderful secondary stuff..including a real curveball already.. he projects as an ace.and is considered our second best prospect in the system while only in A ball.
Why don’t we give them our entire farm system for Santana.
Omar: “Hey Twins you want the New Orleans Zephyrs, Savannah Sand Gnats, Port St Lucie Mets, Brooklyn Cyclones, Binghamton Mets and of course the Kingsport Mets? You got em. We will even throw in Aaron Heilman also. Just give us Santana and we will pay him the biggest contract in baseball history for pitcher.
didnt detroit “gut their farm”? im sure detroit will be so angry with their decision when theyre in the ALCS looking to go the WS.
Sounds like the same thing people were saying about the Mets last year. Nothing is a given in baseball. Tigers still have some good teams they have to contend with to actually get into the playoffs.
I know the games arent played on paper but right now thats all we have to judge by, and right now you have to say they are the 2nd best team in the AL.
except for the fact they have no bullpen. Red Sox and Yanks are better on paper just for the fact that Rivera and Papelbon are on that paper…
well i said 2nd best bc i meant the red sox were #1. id put yankees behind the tigers right now bc the yanks pitching staff is not very impressive, and top to bottom the tigers offense is better.
Perhaps it is Maine or Perez that is holding up the deal. The report said 4 pitchers right? And we all know there was talk of Perez being involved in the trade. So absurd as it may sound what if Perez is included in those 4 pitchers?
I agree with Matt on this one, I would take the pitcher heavy package and sign on the dotted line, although I would be shaking as Matt said I will still pull the trigger. Santana for the next 6 or 7 years I bet is better then at least 3 of those pitchers combined in that time span, Santana is a known entity where they are not. I love Gomez and think he is going to be a great one but you have to give to get.
NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
Well, I guess you have to draw the line somewhere . . .you can’t trade everyone under 25. I’m less worried about these prospects turning out to be good (ala Kasmir), than about having no chips left to trade and having to buy everyone (ala Yankees from about ‘00 to ‘06)
I agree..no chips left for any trades after this one, even for next year. And then we’d have to pay Johan $175 mil or whatever. I’m ok with paying the guy what he deserves but paying him all that loot and also having ZERO chips left is a tough gamble
All you guys that are saying “we should save the chips” – what are we saving them for?
Isnt this team ibuilt to win now (i.e. next 3-4 years)? You need to strike while the iron is hot and get the ACE that will separate yourself from the rest of the mediocre NL east.
Your future would be Santana, Maine and O Perez. That’s a decent group to build around.
If the Mets want to aggressively rebuild their farm they have 3-4 years to do so and can focus on adding free agents to plug gaps until their younger players develop.
The johan sweepstakes is an opportunity to set your team apart from the rest and giving up 4-5 quality prospects isnt that much if you can get Santana to agree to a 5-year (not 7 year) deal.
Wasn’t Maine and OP fallen prospects like Humber and Pelfrey just 15 months ago?
yup
If the 4th pitcher was Joe Smith, of course I would pull the trigger.
The Mets are either a) stupid or b) cheap to not do this trade. This isn’t Barry Zito or Joe Blanton or some other over-hyped mediocre starter. When you’re talking about a potential pu pu platter of mid level prospects, I’d take the best pitcher in baseball any day. Plus, we get to keep F-Mart, the only prospect worth a damn? Sign me up! The farm system needs to be revamped anyway. Make a clean purge and give us an early Christmas present, Omar!
Purging a farm system doesn’t equal rebuilding it. Getting rid of them now kills any chance of making any trades in the next two years…period.
They would be unloading a bunch of players that no one else wants – what’s the problem here?
Without an ace we aren’t going anywhere in the next few years, so pick your poison – give up the farm for a great pitcher or wallow in mediocrity indefinitely.
I choose Santana.
its not that nobody else wants them. Its that they are not as valuable as some other teams top guys.
Any team would love to have gomez, pelf or humber in their minors and would be happy with them there.
I’d do it with the express reservation that I’m looking for Johan to sign a 5 (not 7 year) deal.
Gomez + 4 pitching prospects I’d do if 3 of those prospects are “major league ready” (i.e. pelfry, heilmann, mulvey types) and the 4th pitcher is AA or AAA rated.
Until someone else gets Johan, this could all be a matter of negotiation. If the Mets get Johan but get to keep the extra guy or get a player thrown in, there will be a lot of retracting on this blog.
thats the thing.. the fourth pitcher is our second best prospect and is projected as an Ace.. hes not a filler prospect ..
Purging the whole team for one player is stupid. The Mets are not one good pitcher away from winning anything. I say let the Yankees have him.
what trades will you need to make? isnt the point of saving “chips” for getting the best pitcher in baseball???
if we made any of those deals we’d all be a little upset at first then we’d wake up tomorrow and realize we have arguably the best pitcher in the league on our team, and we are now the favorites in the NL and i think metsblog would be a happy place again.
That’s right! If you are going to go for it this year, if that’s your plan (we haven’t won in 21 years), then getting the best pitcher in baseball is essential if you don’t have to give up anyone that’s not part of your present core.
I’d be happy tomorrow too.
“if we made any of those deals we’d all be a little upset at first then we’d wake up tomorrow and realize we have arguably the best pitcher in the league on our team, and we are now the favorites in the NL and i think metsblog would be a happy place again.”
well, ignorance is bliss, and this place is filled with ignorance
Do it!
Do it rotten!
You know the more I think about it … perhaps we could add gomez and Fmart and not much else.
From what Matt has written above, he makes it look like the deal with Martinez is equal to the one without him … are we really saying that Martinez – a top 20 prospect in all of baseball is the same as Guerra?
We’ve said NUMEROUS times on this blog that the Mets will always be able to sign a good corner OF – even in this crappy market, there are guys like rowand, hunter, and jones (I Know they are CF but you get the point).
What if we give them Gomez and Martinez, but only one other pitcher?
Does Gomez, Martinez, Pelfrey and if we have to – a lesser guy (Kunz, Munoz, etc) NOT get the deal done? I have to think Minny would like that one.
would those packages get bedard? hes a better value than santana. i wouldnt negotiate unless i had other options. plus that contract is a little nuts. but once you make that trade you give all the leverage to santana.
I think the trade is contigent upon negotiating a long-term agreement wtihin 72 hours. So if that doesn’t work out, the trade doesn’t go through.
thats what i mean tho – if omar makes the trade then comes out of that negotiation window with nothing but his chalupa in his hands its going to look really bad.
even with the window, its still essentially just 1 year of santana, vs 2 for haren and 3 for bedard. i dont think the twins have nearly as much leverage as heyman is suggesting. yes santana has been the best pitcher in baseball for several years, but what if they keep him for one more year, win 80 games, miss the playoffs, and then he walks for nothing (or 1-2 draft picks)? not a good move for them.
Bedard is a better value only if you don’t worry about his health. For what it’s worth, Santana has been far more durable. And, it’s all or nothing with Santana. He is essentially a free agent. He’s not going anywhere without a deal. In some ways, there’s more of a risk with a Bedard, who might demand to test the market.
“thats what i mean tho – if omar makes the trade then comes out of that negotiation window with nothing but his chalupa in his hands its going to look really bad.”
wrong, it will show people that he was willing to givwe the guys for Santana, btu Santana wanted too much money, or Freddie didnt want to pay up.
” i dont think the twins have nearly as much leverage as heyman is suggesting.”
i agree, its absurd. They shouldnt have much leverage at all.
1) He wants out. They arent going to pay him.
2) He only has one year left, the Twins want people to pay for his past. We should be paying for one 20 win season over 200 innings and a sub 3 era.
3) Whoever trades for him is FORCED to offer him a really awful and risky contract.
4) There are only a handful of teams he will play for.
If it was me, i offer them Pelfrey, Humber, Muniz, Smith, Carp and Gotay or something. If they want blue chippers, then Nando for Johan straight up, otherwise I am ready to go to war right now with what they have.
Here is something to think about. Do Rollins, Howard, Utley, Burrell all put up monster years again, while Beltran takes half the year off, along with Reyes, Alou misses a ton of time, and Delgado is awful again? Isnt it more likely to people who stop and think that the Mets hitters will improve a little bit, between Delgado, Reyes and Beltran over a full year? People also dont realize how Schneider will help out our young pitchers. Look at the job he did with a bunch of AAAA starters with the Nats. They werent good pitchers, but they were tough on us all year. Maybe Rollins doesnt put up MVP numbers for the second time in a row. If I could add Santana and sign him to a 5 year deal or less, I do it, but we should still only be paying for one year of Santana. It is not as if the Twins are being nice and letting us try to negotiate the extension, they have to do that or else Johan will nix the whole thing. This is a rental player.
Do the first trade!!!!!! Though I would look to replace guerra with Joe Smith (more MLB proven) or a second-tier prospect.
I’ll say it again until I am blue in the face….
THE METS ARE NOT GETTING SANTANA. THEY WON”T WANT TO SIGN HIM FOR 7 YEARS AND THEY WON’T PAY HIM 25 MIL PER YEAR THAT HE WILL WANT
Phew… I feel better
I don’t disagree
I agree with you. This also does not make Wilpon cheap; it just makes Manaya and Wilpon realistic. Doing anything to win (at least in this scenario) can border on stupidity. You need a farm system. Do we want a repeat of the early 90’s?
the early 90s? tell me in the early 90s did we have guys like reyes wright beltran maine perez and wagner to go along with a guy like santana, oh yea and pedro martinez in 08 possibly 09? i dont know what games you were going to.
Come on — we had Hubie Brooks (for his second tour), Vince Coleman in center, Bill Pecota, Rick Cerone, Dave Magadan — we were stacked!!!
You’ve got to do this deal. Johan Santana is the power ace this team has sorely been lacking since David Cone left (save for Pedro’s first season perhaps). Al Leiter was a good pitcher, but I always viewed him as a good NO. 2, not a true No. 1. Go get this deal done Omar, don’t let the Red Sox swoop in with a better offer (since they’ve got the better, or at least, the higher regarded prospects).
The Mets HAVE to make the pitcher heavy trade. The success rate of prospects is very low. None of these guys will ever be Santana, we would be lucky if even one of them ever became a good major leaguer. I agree with Matt, the player I want to keep is FMart, but we are talking about the best pitcher in baseball.
At this point, my feelings about all of this are best summed up in two words: Frank and Viola (in that order).
You are getting a young Johan (not an old version of Viola)
anybody know why Gotay isn’t ever mentioned? Didn’t we fleece them for their 2b last year?
Ummm because he sucks
martinez, humber, gomez, and smith
you’re gotta make this trade. sure martinez and gomez may turn out to be great players but i’ll take the risk to sign the best pitcher in baseball. worst case scenario they end up being good players in the american league. its not like you’re going to face them every year. imo you’ve got to go with the sure thing and johan santana is it. pull the trigger omar…you know what i’m sayin? TRADE LUBE…REGGAETON-STYLE!
that deal I might do.
How could anyone ant to trade FMart? Doesn’t anyone remember how Alex Escobar was an untouchable and then trading him came back to bite us? Wait…that didn’t happen…
Make that trade…that is if that story is the slightest bit true.
[sarcasm]Should have gotten rid of Wright and Reyes years ago as they did with Kazmir. All these guys are like Escobar.[/sarcasm]
I wonder how much harm WE are doing? I mean Omar is trying to make the Twins believe that he’s content to take this team as it is, and he’s not willing to trade the farm for JS. If Minnesota is wondering if that might be true, they can take the pulse of the fan base, and see that Omar will be toast if he does not make something big happen. It’s interesting…
If Omar allows the fans and media to influence his personnel moves then he should be fired.
don’t worry, it should do that no problem.
Yeah, because Fred Wilpon will fire Omar because Metsblog.com is unhappy. You guys are unreal. Get overyourselves. You have literally no input on anything that happens. You have to love the guys that say stuff like “God I hate Omar I am so done with this team”. Umm okay, bye then. Yes, Metsblog.com is holding up the Johan Santana deal that Omar was never stupid enough to make in the first place.
No offense but Heyman spews alot of stuff and to take him on face value and then bash Omar isn’t fair. Lets see if the deal comes out before we go crazy on him first.
does one of those packages get back Kazmir?
Russo is such an dope He keeps quoting Gomez’s statistics. The kid is what 20-21 years old, was rushed to the majors and had less than 130 at bats, and he thinks you have to give him up because he hit 240 limited action. Whether or not you agree with the Mets making the deal, to act as if Gomez is a nobody based on such limited exposure is a joke.
And then Heyman says look at Martinez’s stats. The kid is 18-19 and in Double-A and we are going to talk about his numbers?? Come on. Let scouts tell us how good they are, not dopey radio and tv columnists
Well said.
Fortunately there’s a reason why those guys DON’T have jobs in a team’s front office.
CHEAP…. CHEAP…. CHEAP….
What’s that birdie???
If you are in a position to make the move for Santana you do it… Yeah the $$ and the years are a burden but it’s Johan Santana.
Plus we have 3 draft picks before round 2 this season… We re-stock the farm…
Trade the farm for Santana and then have nothing to trade during the season or at the deadline when you need help.
Like we did this past season?????????
I think the last deadline deal we did was Zambrano for Kazmir.
Enough said.
Last year is last year. You cant trade the farm for one guy and give him an enormous contract. If you trade the farm for Santana then the Mets better win the world series with this team cause they wont be able to make anymore moves after this.
I agree 100%. The farm can be re-supplied. If the offer is there Omar needs to bite the bullet and go for it. Like Matt said, do it like a band-aid.
This is not the time to be playing chicken with the twins. Eventually the Red Sox or Yankees is going to give in and throw in the extra chip that is needed. Then we lose!! Pull the trigger. Who cares about depleting the farm system? If we keep one of Martinez of Gomez I’ll be happy. This is the best pitcher in baseball. A lefty who will make Ryan Howard and Chase Utley look like little leaguers for the next five years!! Do it!
fbones you are 100% correct. omar’s little machismo display will come back to bite us.
“This is not the time to be playing chicken with the twins. Eventually the Red Sox or Yankees is going to give in and throw in the extra chip that is needed”
That is what I am hoping for. And i think omar too, he knows how absolutely ignorant it would be to trade 5 or 6 guys for Santana, but he also knows how ignorant you monkeys are, so he wants to make it look like he tried, which is brilliant. Whats interesting is if this trade went through, WHEN it came back to bite us, which it most certainly would, the same ignorant monkeys lobbying for this trade all winter will be the same dopes blaming omar while Gomez and Martinez become stars.
Fred Wilpon, if you’re holding this up, open up your wallet for Johan! Your front office made a promise in 2004-05 when it went out and ponied up for Beltran, Pedro, Delgado, and Wagner, among others. That promise was a commitment to bringing championship baseball back to this franchise. If you get cold feet on the best pitcher in baseball now, it truly shows Mets fans everywhere your true colors. Sure, Barry Zito wasn’t worth seven years and nine figures. But, there are a few free agents that come along who are. Johan is one of them. So’s Teixeira next year. Open up your wallet and show us Mets fans that our organization is as committed to excellence as the Red Sox and Yankees and is sick of being a second fiddle team!
Funny, I dont remember anybody promising me that they were going to make stupid trades, giving up 30 years of service of high upside service time for ONE year of a great pitcher, and then go ahead and give that great pitcher, one of the worst contracts ever in baseball. Does anybody else remember being promised that?
Do it Omar. Gomez and 4 pitchers is reasonable. If they want to add F-Mart, take out one of the pitchers.
But if this is just a negotiating ploy by Omar, so be it. I’m OK with it. Otherwise, he’s got to do it.
Maybe Theo and Omar are in cahoots to keep him away from the Yankees? As long as the Yankees won’t sweeten their package, then neither will Theo or Omar? If Hank relents, then Theo or Omar will jump in to sweeten their deal?
If either is the case, I’m OK with it.
IF THE METS DON’T MAKE THIS TRADE AND ONE OF THESE GUYS DEVELOP INTO A HOF PLAYER, THE METS WILL BE CRUCIFIED.
IF THE METS DO MAKE THE TRADE AND ONE OF THESE GUYS DEVELOP INTO A GREAT PLAYER, THE METS WILL BE OKAY IF SANTANA DOESN’T BOMB.
WHAT’S MORE LIKELY?
SANTANA BOMB OR ONE OF THE PROSPECTS DEVELOP INTO A HOF PLAYER?
I’LL BET ON SANTANA.
Amen, brother. Concise and well-reasoned.
i agree to do it. definitely pelfrey, humber, mulvey…through in heilman. and it i had to keep an of, it would be cargo, not fmart.
i don’t see what the hold up is. this is an opportunity to have a great rotation plus three outstanding position players. Santana makes the Mets a world series contender. back up the truck as far as i’m concerned. but hey, i don’t write the checks and it’s a damn good thing i don’t make the decisions for this team ;-)
with that said, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE GET US SANTANA!
Matt is making a dangerous assumption that many other posters make. That is, pencilling Perez into the young nucleus of the future.
Ollie is a FA after this year, and IIRC represented by Boras. So, unless they extend him before the season starts, he hits the open market.
And if next year is anything like this year, he could easily be the hot commodity for the off season, and get a huge deal from some team (think Yankees) and be gone.
Especially if he has a break out huge year, he could be getting Zito money (given how young he will be).
Omar should work on extending him ASAP. As we all know, young pitchers under contract are worth their weight in gold.
Boras clients almost ALWAYS hit the open market. He’s Boras, nobody gets a discount
unless of course Bora$ badly misjudges the market for his client (see: A-Rod or Andruw Jones).
Of course, quality FA pitchers are in a different category.
Yes, all he did for A-rod was get him the biggest contract in baseball history, and get andruw jones 18 mil over 2 years coming off an awful season, giving him a chance to sign another big contract when he is 33, and also getting him 36 mil in the meantime. Stupid Boras.
Ouch it does seem like the Twins are asking for the entire farm here.
No Omar- just let the Yankees have him. Their payroll is only $230 million right now- that would put theirs up around $250 million. We need to keep ours at a patheticly cheap $95 million. And then Freddie Coupons can raise ticket prices and rape us all to come out and see the same pathetic bunch of chokers (and same choking manager, GM) as last year. So yeah just let the Yankees grab some more headlines again Omar- and let them make the Mets their b*tch, just like they’ve been for the Mets’ entire existence, particularly over the past 10-12 years. Then we’ll sign Carlos Silva to a $55 million dollar contract and go finish in 3rd place.
those numbers are incorrect, whether you’re a Mets shill or hater, those numbers are not correct.
so are you saying you’re done with this mickey mouse franchise, or are you saying the Mets need to make a splash?
aww poor baby.. cry me a river.
No. He’s saying TRADE REYES NOW, TRADE REYES NOW, TRADE REYES NOW. DO IT. MAKE IT HAPPEN. AND GIVE THEM A DEADLINE.
*speachless*
This is starting to remind me of the time the Mets traded to get Frank Viola; they gave up 5 young players/prospects including Rick Aguilera and Kevin Tapani who went on to have solid careers and got only one decent year out of Viola. Be careful what you wish for.
great work omar…stand firm.
Relax. Take a deep breath.
The Twins can (and should) ask for the moon but we don’t need to give it to them.
The Mets offer should be 4 players:
(1) – Gomez or F-Mart
(2) – Heilman, Pelfrey, Mulvey, Humber
(1) – Gotay, Smith, Collado, Niese, etc.
That’s the deal .. 4 for 1.
And then when Alou and El Duque get injured were screwed
I gotta disagree with Matt. The four pitchers are “a lot” in quantity only. Pelfrey and Humber seem equally likely to develop into #3’s or just be flops, but I haven’t seen anything that shows either to be a likely #1 or #2. Mulvey looks like a guy who will look good at AA, maybe even AAA, but is not a premier mlb prospect. Guerra is still way too early to tell. So Gomez seems like the one guy with likely big upside. I’d give up this package for Santana, who’s probably the best pitcher in the AL and is likely to be even more dominant against NL lineups. The one big issue I see is the length of contract; if he holds out for a 7 year contract that actually takes him out 8 more years, which is a long time gamble on one arm. But with the network and the new stadium, the mets can afford to tke that chance.
Too bad the Mets didn’t still have Milledge, although the Twins might not have had much interest in him (I’m sure Omar had to have offered him in early discussions with the Twins). The way I see it, you’ve got to do this deal. The prospects are nice, but they are just prospects. For every Wright and Reyes the Mets’ system has produced, there have been countless Alex Escobars, Butch Huskeys and Bill Pulsiphers. You never know what you’re going to get from prospects. Santana is a proven commodity and a true ace, something this team has sorely lacked for a long time (save for perhaps one year of Pedro). Go get him Omar!
You make it sound like 2 pitchers likely to develop into cheap number 3s that u can control for for 6 years each isnt worth one year of an ace alone. Would u rather have 2 guys in the rotation for the next 6 years that put up john maines 2007 numbers every year for 6 years, or would u rather have one season of johans numbers from last year. I am taking 12 seasons of 3.80 ball for dirt cheap over one great season from johan, anyday.
Gomez, Heilman, Pelfrey, Humber & Mulvey for Santana.
Tack on Matt Wise, Freddy Garcia & Kevin Mench.
Anything other than Wright, Reyes, Pedro, Maine, Perez, or not nailed down inside of Shea Stadium should be available to the Twins in exchange for Santana.
I’m also willing to pay $5 more per ticket if I can even find one, but don’t let Fred know that.
I will personally drive every single one of these “prospects” to the airport if we can get Santana.
A pitcher this good in his prime becomes available very, very rarely. The Mets have to get him and I don’t give a damn who goes to Minnesota in the deal.
I’ll pay for the limo and sit shotgun.
I’ll run beside the car while you drive all the way to Minny.
***SEE THE BIG PICTURE AS A GM WOULD****
Here’s the big picture issue . . . with the Mets lack of upper level talent, what do they do if the injury bug bites again like it did last year? With nobody left to call up or to use as trade bait to acquire someone, you’re left quite vulnerable. If the Mets outfield gets injured like it did last year (and you know at least Alou will spend some time on the DL), who do you put out there? Mets fans will be crying if Ricky Ledee plays another game.
Think about it . . . if we have the same positional injuries again this year, after making this trade we’re now trotting out anderson hernandez at second, easly in left, ben johnson in center, and god knows who in rightfield . . . that doesn’t make for much of a scary lineup offensively or defensively. And god forbid wright or reyes gets injuerd . . .
The mets rotation isn’t bad as is. I’d rather see them just go after bullpen help and have some bullets for the trading deadline if needed.
endy alou beltran green milledge and gomez all got hurt most of them were all hurt at the same time, do you really think thats gonna happen again? yes its a risk but it could pay off VERY well for us.
Listen, say we are a little short in the OF this year, we are still better off next season. If we don’t make this move, we will be the same team this year as we are next year. Gomez is going to take a few years to develop as well as F-Mart. Come to think of it, I think as soon as his trade value increases he will be traded.
Yes it is tough to gut your system, but they are obviously playing for the next two years here. If they weren’t, they would have held on to Lastings.
There’s “seeing the big picture” and there’s “overthinking the situation.” Sure, if Martinez and Duque go down, you’re lookign at the likes of Vargas to fill starts. Meanwhile, if they go down w/o Santana, you’re putting young guys out there who may not be any good. . . . And, oh yeah, you don’t have Santana matching up againt the Hamels and Hudsons of the world. And injuries to position prospects? You’re worried about losing Gomez??? Gomez should be spending the entire year at AAA, anyway.
Gomez should’ve spent last year at AAA also, but was forced into action due to injuries. If the same thing happens again this year, there’s no fall back if they trade away everyone. My issue isn’t with trading away prospects. If we had other unpolished players to call up or trade to fill a need due to injury during the season, I’d be all for this trade.
That said, Starting pitching wasn’t our issue last year . . . the bullpen was. Our starters were 5th in MLB. That should be good enough. Improve the bullpen and we’ll be fine.
The bullpen stunk late in large part because it was overworked. The bullpen was overworked because the starters couldn’t work deep.
Actually, if these “chips” cant get anything right now, what makes you think they can bring something later on when the other team knows they’re desperate?
If this story is all truth……….I just might have to return my brick that I was stupid enough to order.
How in God’s name do you not make this deal? What is wrong with this Mets front office. Do they even care about winning now…and being the dominant force?
They don’t even want Reyes…and YOU STILL DONT MAKE THE DEAL! Unreal.
Mets biggest hole is a front line ace. The opportunity is on the table to get the best pitcher in baseball for years to come…and we hold out for some teenage OF prospects.
NEWSFLASH OMAR: Outfielders are a dime a dozen.
2 time Cy Young winners….not so much.
This franchise is becoming a joke. It’s moves like this that will keep us the ugly step child to the Yankees…..watch Santana in pinstripes now. Just watch.
its too late but i wish i could change my brick so it can say
gomez + humber + pelfrey + mulvey + (pitcher) < Santana.
I have to admit, the Mets are starting to feel like the Knicks to me.
It’s called negotiations. The Hacks and BoSox don’t really want Johan and he wants to play with the Mets. So why jshould the Mets throw them everything in the first offer which is considerably more then either of those other teams have offered.
Need alittle calm here; we have no idea about what’s actually going on. We’re getting precious few tidbits to go on. All we really know is that the Mets are players for Johan; it’ll take a great sacrifice in minor league talent to get him here (plus a lot of money); and it’ll be a crapshoot both ways–will Johan stay healthy (we know he’ll perform) and did we give up so much that it’ll come back to haunt us.
can we please stop comparing this to frank viola. johan santana is going to give us 1 good year? come on people. the guy is an artist on the mound hes not the type of guy that will fizzle out if say he loses a couple mphs on the fastball. hes a changeup pitcher those guys seem to pitch long into their careers (glavine, moyer, the new pedro has become a changeup guy). i said it earlier in the post id take santana over the motley crew of mediocrity we would have to give up.
Viola was the same way.. they didnt call him “Sweet Music” for nothing..
his elbow blew out before his 32nd birthday.
Delios Guerra is the only name I shudder over on that list.. 18 year olds on 6 foot 5 frames with wicked stuff who throw 95 plus mph dont grow on trees
do you honestly believe this is the same as the viola situation?
Not exactly.. we traded for Viola mid season and signed him to only a three year extension..
he left us at the end of that contract and blew out his elbow the next year.
Some of the “just need one ace to get over the top” sentiments are similar. of course he pitched to a near cy young in his first fill year in NY and we still came in second place.
some hasnt played out.. we do know the 4 players we traded to Minny led them to a world series in 1991.
trading multiple players for 30 year old aces is a risky business.. giving them 7 year contracts is even more risky..
id almost buy into it.. but take Delios Guerra out of the deal.
No offense to Matt … but when Heyman says the Red Sox are “cool” to Santana on the very same day that Olney writes that a deal may be “close,” I really wonder why I waste my time listening / caring about any of this rumor mill business.
When I think of guys like Heyman and Olney … I think of a room full of 100 monkeys throwing their feces around. Some of the shyte is going to stick, but most of it is just dung in a corner.
I thought the fan who posted the Olney bit was wrong. That Olney never said the Red Sox and the twins were close. He merely said they were talking.
Gomez or F-Mart plus 4 pitchers is ok, but not both. Why don’t the twins just try drive a empty bus to the Mets’ farm and ask them to fill it up?
F-Mart is 18 years old. He’s effing 4 to 5 years away from playing the big leagues. What the hell is wrong you people?
I guess some people want to be Mets fans in four years …
a lot happens in four years is my point.
honestly in the next 4 years we will have developed prospects by then…you do this deal, its a once in a couple of decades type of opportunity. and honestly if we lose next year bc of lack of depth in the minor leagues no real fan will be upset bc we’ll understand what had to be done to get that shot.
i knew arod would come up eventually here. just to put this out there. a scout downgraded fmart after this season. don’t ever say someone is about to become arod. there might not be another arod for 50 years.
As a general rule, it is indavisable to criticize the intelligence of a person by calling him an adjective that you, yourself, are incapable of correctly spelling.
One could even say that doing so would be asinine.
Of course, holding up getting the best pitcher in baseball for a maybe, possibly, potentially good but also potentially a huge flop teenaged outfielder is also asinine.
for all you fools who do not know what the word negotiation means, it’s exactly what the mets are doing and i agree with this rejection it gives the mets leverage to make the twins either throw in someone else for the mets’ pitchers.
and for those who think that trading heilman doesnt hurt the mets….please.
the rotation is not in as bad shape as many people think. bullpen needs the upgrades more than the rotation and trading away 4 pitchers is not the answer to the mets’ problems…
Everyone knows it was the other way around. When your bullpen is throwing more innings in the last 2 months of the season than your starters, then it wasn’t the bullpen that was the problem.
Exactly. The pen was pretty good but tired due to overuse because (1) Willie is a horrid in-game manager and (2) the starters were bad and not going deep into games.
5-year-old Arkansas descendant of Davy Crockett kills bear
Why do I think there should be a blog dedicated solely to this kid? Gottta love the South!
i just laughed and forgot the mute button was off on my conference call…thanks for that achilles400.
Blogging while on a conference call. Nice! My most daring is doing it while on the phone with my wife.
It’s a 6 hour call and i just can’t stay focused that long. it was either flying to maui for a six hour mtg or doing it over the phone.
Maui is only a 4 hour flight for me, I’d probably go and have a Mai Tai
well, it’s 13 hours for me. when you add the hour drive from the airport to the resort, it’s 28 hours of travel for a six hour meeting.
i can only do that twice a year.
I read through Heyman’s article and it says nothing about the Mets “turning down” anything.
oh no? the following was copied directly from the SI.com article. pay close attention to the words CLINCH THE DEAL.
“And the Mets offered different packages of prospects that included either outfielder Carlos Gomez or outfield prospect Fernando Martinez but not both, declining to include the one extra prospect the Twins requested to clinch the deal according to people familiar with those talks.”
JUST GET IT DONE OMAR!!!!!!!!!
This is the moment of truth for Omar.
He can spin it any way he tries,
BUT, this is the deal that has to be done and it has to be done right.
I may not be thrilled with the guy; but I wish him well.
This is his moment…
it HAS to be more 2 this. maby omar is waiting till boston and yanks fix there sp situation so that the offer will be strong enough to hold.
our best and only deal would be shot down right away as soon as the sox or yanks give in. wait it out, bc soon or later they need to think of there pitching needs.
this is my idea of what omar and co are thinking who agrees
agreed. have to trust management.
Omar, please save the day
give them
Pelfrey (who has not been impressive so far)
Humber (who came back from major surgery with nothing)
Heilman (who will be the next Heath Bell but not for us)
Carlos Gomez (you have to give them something)
Guerra (who may well turn out to be nothing much)
for
Santana/Glen Perkins (a reliever we could use)
and we keep F Mart & Mulvey that way
done
I wonder….when the Twins asked ask for one more guy to the trade and if we said yes…..
Would that be a deal then and there, or is it, “that sounds like a deal, we’ll get back to you in a bit”, which would give the Red Sox and Yanks to make their final offers…
I wonder if Omar was sensing it would be similar to what the Red Sox and Twins were doing last week…
Did Humber really come back with “nothing”??
Anyway, I have to call into question the assurances we’ve received that trading Milledge would have “no effect” on any deal for a pitcher. Maybe it didn’t AT THAT MOMENT, but these situations are in flux. It always felt like a line of BS, anyway. . . .
I’d have a hard time parting with both gomez and fmart.
i think one of those two guys needs to be kept in the system to either a) plug an outfield hole in the next year or two or b) be used to fill another need somewhere down the line.
that said, i think trading one of those two + pitchers is the way to go.
however, it has to be done with some common sense.
and by that i mean, i think it would be a mistake to trade all 3 of pelfrey, humber, and mulvey together
and i think it would be a mistake to trade heilman and joe smith together.
by trading both of the latter we create two large holes in the bullpen for next year and beyond.
and by trading all three of the former we have no young pitching ready to contribute for next year (possibly 2).
therefore i’d be inclined to offer a package of 5 (gomez or fmart + 4 pitchers) with the following caveats:
1 from group A: gomez or fmart
2 from group B: pelfrey, humber, mulvey
1 from group C: heilman or smith (but if they choose heilman then we get to pick who stays from group B).
1 from group D: guerra, niese, parnell, owens
so essentially something like —
gomez, heilman, humber, mulvey, guerra
or
gomez, smith, pelfrey, mulvey, guerra
Problems.
Offer 1 would not be accepted. Guerra isn’t projectable enough. Nobody has seen enough of him to have him magically replace Pelfrey in the deal.
Offer two would be accepted but A) Heilman would leave after 08, so we’d be screwed in the bullpen area and B) Humber is essentially a fallback plan.
Gomez, Heilman, Pelfrey, Guerra & Humber.
1 prospect who may have peaked in value, 1 reliever that we only have for 1 more year, a wild cannon pitching prospect, a pitcher 2 or 3 years away from his debut, and a wild card guy.
Keeping Mulvey would be wise.
Watch for a favorable Mets/ Yankees trade that constitutes our “bonus” for helping them keep him out of the AL East. . . .
. . . I know, sounds paranoid, but stranger things have happened. If you’re the Yanks, the one organization you detest more than the one in Queens is in Boston.
I look at you all
See the love there that’s sleeping
While my Omar gently weeps
metsfansberealistic, they wouldnt do that just for santana, let alone adding perkins…the twins have made it pretty clear they want both outfielders…i have a compromise trade right here:
Mets trade:
OF Ryan Church
OF Fernando Martinez
RHP Aaron Heilman
RHP Deolis Guerra
RHP Phil Humber
FOR
LHP Johan Santana
I’ve come up with an alternative. DWright hits right out of the gate, Delgado hits somewhere within a respectable range of his career numbers for more than half the season, and Reyes doesn’t disappear the last two months.
That would work for me. I think people are forgetting Delgado’s role in the Mets’ lack of offensive production last year. And, yeah, it would be nice for Wright to Wright all season and Reyes to be Reyes all season.
and around and around we go… as many other people have said, if this report is to be believed, then you have to make this deal. I would prefer the pitching heavy one, as none of them have very high ceilings, while fmart is still young and we’re not sure what we have with him yet.
If you were a Phillies’ fan, are you rooting for the Mets to make this deal, because they’ll be out of pitching prospects and you won’t have to worry about Carlos Gomez?? Or are you worried about Ryan Howard failing to make contact in an AB against Santana for several years in succession?
Thank you Omar, for not giving up 30 years of service time of high upside players only to be forced into signing a horrible contract, albeit for an outstanding pitcher. It just isnt worth it, its absurd.
Thank you, Omar, for not giving up the probable equivalent of Paul Wilson, Octavio Dotel, David West, Matt Peterson, and Keith Miller for the dominant pitcher in baseball.
quality over quantity plane and simple. plus knowing this franchise who is to say we dont trade fmart or gomez or guerra later down the road for middle relievers or a OF/!B utility guy.
Whatever. I think it is ridiculous to give him a 7 or 8 year contract for 20 mil per year or more even if he was a free agent on the open market. To do that and lose your whole system is crazy. I love Omar.
Welcome to the brave new world of contracts for starting pitchers. Wait for Sabathia to come onto the market and you’re lining up against the AL East for him, not to mention the fact that he may never make it to free agency and he isn’t as good a pitcher as Santana. Teams are too gunshy to just let pitchers walk. If you guard your prospects too jealously, you’re left standing when the music stops.
Also, as a general matter, anyone incredibly bullish about the MEts’ system needs to read similar accounts of other teams’ prospects. EVERY. TEAM. has guys who “could be Sammy Sosa,” “could be Jake Peavy,” etc. Those are the high-end estimations of their performance. More likely, you end up with Dee Brown or Todd Van Poppel.
Now I know you are simply just against prospect development. Trade em all for a decent player or two. Why not?
All I want for Christmas is Johan Santana.
Seriously, this guy is THE best pitcher in baseball. How often can a team acquire the best pitcher in baseball in his prime?
If they are willing to empty their entire system, and willing to give out a horrendous contract, it can happen a lot more then you think.
The problem is our farm system sucks and not on of those players except martinez and guerra have a shot at being all stars. Johan is a hall of fame pitcher. Gomez is the only one who has a chance to be good. Pelfrey has no off speed pitch. NONE. Humber, is injury prone. Mulvey projects as a 4 at best. Please trade these guys for Santana
OMAR!!!!, What are you waiting for, get this deal done…Now we are playing the Redsox & Yankees game of only one prospect but not both stuff….That is why the deal hasn’t been done yet, get it done before the Skankees get back in or the Redsux decide to give up Lester and Ellsbury then we are S.O.L.
Who cares if the Yankees are the stupid team to sellout their farm for one year of Santana. That is good news to me. I just find it funny that most of you are the same ones who wanted Zito last year and if Omar had gone through with that move we wouldnt even be talking about Johan Santana. One year of Santana. One year. We are only paying for one year. One year. One season. You guys want to give away like 30 years of service time for one year of a great player. And then be forced into locking him into a contract that will absolutely screw us in the long run if anything happens to his arm over the next 5 years. It cannot be justified, no matter how you spin it.
The trade would not happen unless Santana is locked up. Simply wouldn’t happen.
I might actually rather give up Gomez and Martinez. But not with any pitching of note. Maybe 1 guy, but not Pelfrey.
Gomez, Martinez and Smith. Take it or leave it.
Pitching is way too expensive to give up that many prospects, and he is a rental. Plus you have the “it;s easy to find a corner OF” crowd
4 top pitching prospects plus gomez is too much.
Besides, Ithought MInn. was loaded with pitching prospects and wanted postition players? Unless the plan to spin them off.
If Omar doesn’t do this deal, keeps the prospects, and then signs duds like Livan and Lawrence, or trades one of these prospects in a lousy deal ( like Bannister-Burgos) then I’m going to puke.
There is no excuse now for NOT using the kids.
Also, why not just do the trade and sign some scrubs like Lawrence or Williams or Ledee for emergencies. I am willing to live with them as long as they get Santana.
Omar keeps saying it’s all about the pitching. Now prove it.
How does trading away 20+ years of high end pitching prospects for one year of one great pitcher prove that its about the pitching?
The problem here is the term “high end.” These pitchers are B/ B+ prospects. None of them is Kershaw, Bailey, Lincecum, Hughes, Chamberain, Buchholz, etc.
No one is saying to trade them for ONE year of great pitching. The assumption is that you sign an extension with Johan which shouldn’t be hard since he wants to play for the Mets. So you get him for 5-6 years at least.
High-end prospects are still just prospects. The chances of any one of them becoming a solid #1 or #2 are still remote. And none of them will be as good as Santana.
i’m all for making a splash by acquiring a top-of-the-rotation starter. believed the mets needed one from the end of the season along with bullpen help.
that being said, you can’t trade the entire farm system for a 29-year old ace who is an elbow or rotator injury away from destroying the franchise for more than a decade.
it sounds like the deal would be f-mart, gomez, heilman, pelfrey, humber + mulvey or another prospect for santana. that’s everything the mets have left. who pitches the 8th with heilman gone. the team will have a worse bullpen than last year unless sanchez is heathy and back to form. i doubt it with his work ethic
f-mart or gomez
+
pelfrey or mulvey
+
one of smith, humber, heilman
is more than fair for a free agent to be pitcher who will make $20m+ per year. if not, take your chances in a weaker nl which has won 3 of 7 world series titles
“i’m all for making a splash by acquiring a top-of-the-rotation starter. believed the mets needed one from the end of the season along with bullpen help.
that being said, you can’t trade the entire farm system for a 29-year old ace who is an elbow or rotator injury away from destroying the franchise for more than a decade.
it sounds like the deal would be f-mart, gomez, heilman, pelfrey, humber + mulvey or another prospect for santana. that’s everything the mets have left. who pitches the 8th with heilman gone. the team will have a worse bullpen than last year unless sanchez is heathy and back to form. i doubt it with his work ethic”
“f-mart or gomez
+
pelfrey or mulvey
+
one of smith, humber, heilman
is more than fair for a free agent to be pitcher who will make $20m+ per year. if not, take your chances in a weaker nl which has won 3 of 7 world series titles”
What? Somebody with a brain? This is crazy. Thank you zen for having some sense and not just listening to the guys like Steve PHillips and Chris Russo who say we need an ace every single year. An ace wasnt the reason we collapsed last year. One game anywhere in the season would have got us into the playoffs. Heck, if Anderson doesnt get that interference call on Greens grounder in PHilly, we make the playoffs. I dont think you guys realize how good Guerra, Martinez, Gomez, even Pelfrey and Humber can be. If Johan was locked up at 5 years 70 million, then you pull the trigger. But not when you are going to be forced to dishout a contract that throughout the course of baseball history has never worked out, and lose your entire farm system to boot. It can be justified. Even if Haren costed the same amount of prospects, atleast he is locked up cheap and we have money to spend elsewhere, and other resources for if he ever got hurt. My way of looking at it is, I really would be hesitant to give Santana 8 years 160 million even if he was a free agent who costed us no players. Giving up your whole system on top of that is sickening to even think of for me.
It cant be justified**
lets say we traded for santana and he did get hurt do you really think having pelfrey or humber or gomez here instead would make this franchise so great? i understand your concern if he went down bc then we’d have no ace and no far, but you have to take that kind of risk sometimes. we have alot of picks this year we can replenish the farm.
i’m fine with trading those three guys. i’m not fine with adding f-mart + mulvey with gomez, pelfrey, heilman, and humber. that leaves the team w/o chips.
even if santana is healthy and great other players may get injured (like the whole outfield last year or the weak bullpen) then the mets have no chips to repair it.
alou is gone next year. church is 29 and serviceable. who plays the corners during alou’s injury time and the years after? another overpaid outfield free agent? delgado will be gone after next year too. another free agent? pedro and ollie are free agents too next year. the wilpons won’t spend on these things after adding $150m for santana.
so what does it come down to? 1 chance at the world series. they can get out of the nl w/o santana. in 2006 they were a few outs away. i want him too, but it has to be a resonable deal not a desperate move that kills the franchise
what if we do this deal, and santana gets hurt? man, i would love to see what everyone would say…
it would be omars fault, no doubt about it. Thats what they will all say.
What would they say if we didn’t do the deal and then Gomez blew out his knee? “Well, there’s still a chance Mulvey works out?”
Omar, after your dinner this evening, get back on the phone and don’t get off until it is done. Now there, wasn’t that easy?
So many comments to read so I am not sure if anyone mentioned this:
The mets have 2 first round picks, and a supplemental first round pick this upcoming draft.
Why not offer them say, one of our first round picks and one of our second round picks instead?
I would hate to give up both first round picks, but if it could get us Santana and save us from trading a Mulvey/Heilman/F-mart I might be for that.
Anybody? Anybody?
Do baseball people actually trade draft choices?
yes
Yes, but those trades are then nullified by the Commissioner’s office and the “baseball people” responsible for them are fired for not knowing the first thing about the rules.
No. You’re not allowed to trade draft picks.
I only do the deal if the Twins take Delgado and $7 mil for Mornaeu.
Otherwise, tell them to take a flying leap.
Ummm, thanks for reminding us, Wolverine…
Right on Wolverine… This a freakin’ ace in his prime, pitching in the NL.. Mets are one ace away from getting to the WS.. prospects… you can always get more prospects…
i agree we should have added Heilman or another prospect to top it off but how do we even know if this is legit?
hey guys im 14 yers old and i know basically everything about baseball what do u think the chances are of me actually becoming GM for a professional baseball team?
Stay in school. Drink your milk. Have your family become connected with an ownership group.
not im a million years for what kramer dirtynezz
So not trading Gomez and Martinez in the same deal is keeping us from getting the best pitcher in baseball?
Motherf…..
Gomez and Martinez combined will never have the same value that Santana does right now. Put them both in a deal, they’re going to be rushed, suck, and traded for backup catchers and 4th OFs if we keep them. At least get something for them before the front office destroys their value like they did to Milledge.
Santana is one arm injury away from becoming a lead weight. To fork over 7/140 *and* trade five good-to-very-good prospects for him is a fearsome thing. It is the baseball equivalent of putting all your eggs in one basket. It *could* work out great. But there is a nontrivial risk of disaster. I’ve seen 5-for-1s before (Von Hayes), but how many 5-for-1s have you seen where the “1″ is a pitcher?
There has to be *some* limit on how much quality/quantity you’re willing to give up. I would make every effort to keep FMart, Guerra, and Mulvey.
If five players are required, we should get at least one potentially useful piece back from Minnesota, even if it’s just a middle reliever.
If Santana wants to be a Met so bad, he should tell the Twins I want to be a met, if not I’m going free agent next year. Make it happen. If they balk at it, he can come out in the press and say he wants to go to the east coast in the NL, he’s earned the right to be a free agent and if they don’t like it too bad. That would bring down the price. That is assuming he wants to go to the Mets.
The fact is, we don’t know what’s real and what’s not. We’ve heard so many rumors 99% of them are garbage.
DO IT! DO IT NOW! We want to win next year, I dont care about 3 or 4 years from now. We get new prospects every year. Johan’s the best in the game.
I agree!!! Make the pull the trigger – NOW!!!
I want Johan!!!!!!
*them
I just love how all the ‘tards here didn’t want to back up the truck before. FF a week and a terrible MIlledge trade and everyone’s ready to gut the farm. No wonder Mets fans are so stupid.
why bold?
Mets front office butchers their prospect (Milledge was their first of many victims. Pelfrey is likely the next). They’re better off trading them while they can still be saved by a club that actually knows how to develop players. Besides, most of their farm sucks.
All of a sudden Mulvey is Brandon Webb in waiting?
i dont understand what u guys mean .. isnt gomez a lock to be manny .. and F mart a lock to be sizemore, and milledge a lock to be Straw? …. pelf a lock to be nolan?
make the F’in DEAL
and stop with the freddy coupons comments… it makes no sense when u have the 4th highest payroll in baseball
I am willing to bet Freddie Coupons doesn’t want to put out the money for a 6-7 year contract. A WFAN caller put it best a few minutes ago: “Wilpon needs to be out of New York, I’m tired of this. He needs to go be an owner in Kansas City or Oakland…for a small market team. He behaves like a small market owner”
I couldn’t agree more.
That might be the reason alright. In the end, the prospect of paying a guy $25mil for the next 6-7 years might not be so tolerable for even the richest owners. Coupon, on the other hand, has no excuse.
and yes i would gut the farm for JOHAN ……its clear now that SP must come from within, with the current FA prices …. but outfielders/1b’s etc. can be replaced when u have the flexability of being able to spend 100-130mill
im pretty sure its third right? well it was last year
small market owner spending 110 mill on his players …. how many other owner are jumping at the gun to give Johan 140/7 ?
no … tigers are at 130 as of now
Guaranteed they dump some payroll before the season. Owners don’t lose money, period. They didn’t get to own an MLB team by being bad business people. Detroit isn’t Boston, NY, or LA.
This is why I was saying the Milledge trade was such a mistake- aka now this conservative regime is going to be hesitant to trade both Gomez and Martinez, because that would leave them with zero young outfielders. That is why it was stupid to trade Milledge for the cr*p they got. It was a thoughtless, stubborn move on Minaya’s part. Plus if his value was so bad you should have just held onto him- that’s what smart executives do. Fire everyone
Give ‘em F-Mart for godsakes. It’s pitching that wins! You can always go out and pay for a slugger. Geez. I’m starting to get really irritated at Omar.
ok.. i see your point … although i think the milledge trade was more of management/ownership just wanting him OUT more than anything …
Trade for Santana, sign Fukudome. That’s what the NYY would do in this situation- but that’s the difference between Hank/George and cheapo Freddie Coupons. Mets want to do it on the cheap with a $380,000 RF in Ryan Church and somebody like Kyle Lohse (oh wait he’s white) or Carlos Silva, Livan.
I hate Freddie Coupons.
yeah like the yankees are a model franchise….
Agreed re Santana and Fukudome.
It all stems from Ownership- that is obviously the real problem here. Ownership is not in touch with it’s fan base and is blind to a lot of things.
See: NY Knicks
I’d rather have Dolan though cause if nothing else- he will spend and spend and spend and money is no object.
Dolan is a moron. Why spend and spend and spend if the product you put out there is craptastic? While I admit there was a time I bought more into your line of thinking (that the Mets management was cheap), I hardly think it’s been the case over the last few years. That being said, I think the Mets must do whatever they can to get Santana. He’s similar to Pedro in his prime and none of the other pitchers on the market (including Bedard and especially Haren) are really in the same league. Go get him Omar, I don’t care what it costs. This isn’t a 36-year-old pitcher, this guy still has many high-caliber seasons left.
matt why do you edit the post and remove the supposed deals you make me more confused :)
can peterson be the fourth pitcher
He’ll think himself to an ERA of 5.10, but then again that’s not so bad these days.
I just don’t want heilman and fernand to go
In style of “Darrrrrrrrryyylllll::
Ooooooooooomaaaaaaaarrrrrr! Ooooooooooomaaaaaaaarrrr! Oooooooomaaaaaarrrrrr!
Get it done, fool!
F – it. Just do and get it over with.
If Omar and the Mets are thinking of giving in to Smith’s asking price, they should take that same package, and maybe swap one of the players with a catcher that’s already on the roster, then approach the Orioles with it, in return for Bedard and Ramon Hernandez.
LOL, I’m checking every hour on the hour to see if Mets traded for Johan or the deal was made. Wow, this has to get done. I can’t think about it too much, but oh my god, if we pull this off…
LETS GO METS!!! Omar don’t sit on your hands, make a move!
I CANNOT STAND certain Mets fans who, when told of the possibility of a MEGA-player coming to their team, become SCARED……They are afraid of having Santana on the team and come up with excuses as to why you need your prospects….Lets put it this way, Hanley Ramirez DID pan out to be an amazing player, but do you think the RedSox regret that trade??? Arod, now Santana, grow a pair and accept greatness on your team!
That is the comment of the day!
Amen, brother.
the red sox won the 2003 world series w/o beckett. they may have won this year w/o beckett with hanley at ss and a free agent pitcher instead of josh.
the red sox made a fair trade. giving up a couple of very good prospect for an excellent pitcher under a cheap contract
the twin are requiring the entire mets farm system for a pitcher who will be a free agent and will require $20m + per immediately. huge difference.
for a fair trade, i make the deal. i mentioned a fair trade in another post above.
ok give up gomez,pelfrey,humber,heilman and a lower level prospect of mulvey or f-mart if worst comes to worst and bring johan and a WS ring home to the good sidde of New York
well i meant give up a guy like carp and if they reject then go to mulvey or martinez
Gomez, Heilman, Pelfrey & Guerra to the Twins for Santana. give them Humber if that is a sticking point.
I’ll tell you why, folks.
Carlos Gomez – I don’t know where his high value came from, but I’d capitalize on it soon. A sloppy hitter who has only proven glove and wheels. Even his minor league numbers are less than impressive.
Aaron Heilman – 1 year left on contract, eligible for arbitration, doesn’t like his role on team. That means trade him! He wants to be a starter and will ask for some big $$ to be a Mets setup guy.
Mike Pelfrey – Great stuff, wacky control, little success at MLB level. Lots of potential, not a lot of proof.
Deolis Guerra – Good pitcher, advancing well through the system. Very far away, and unnecessary with Santana, Maine & Perez. Plus, I think very highly of Mulvey & Niese.
Phil Humber – I consider him a failure. Seeing him pitch in AAA and the MLB showed me that he can be a guy who will put up a 4 ERA every year and strike out some guys.
We all know about Mr. Santana.
Problem with Gomez, Pelfry and Humber? Let’s dump them on an unsuspecting Bill Smith.
I don’t think so. You come up with 4 or 5 prospect with more upside than down, almost certain to succeed and then the Twins will bite. They hold all the cards.
Hell, they’re the ones that think highly of Pelfrey and Gomez.
Which airport would Omar like me to drive them to?
i give them the entire farm system, we need santana more than we need those prospects. do whatever it takes to get santana as long as it doesnt include wright or reyes. DO IT stop the BS and give them whatever and however many prospects of ours they want!
LOL!!
The Twins already gave the Mets a list of all the players they liked. Maybe Omar misunderstood it to mean that he should pick 4 or 5 from the list, when what Smith was saying was he wanted ALL the players on that list.
Why outbid yourself, honestly, If Im Omar, I stand pat, I guarantee the Mets are the ONLY team that has a real chance of getting Johan…
Boston’s only motive to get in the Johan race was to keep him from the Yankees, so long as the Yanks dont jump back into it,
they have no motive for getting him
Johan wants to play in NY….He wants to play in the NL…he loves to bat and I’m sure the bottom 3rd in the NL is alot easier to face..
He is good friends with Castillo ( who just signed for 4 yrs )
We have the resources to pay him 30 mil a year
The Mets have the motive to pay him 30 mil a year…def would be justifiable…
I would offer a package of:
Gomez (you can have’em!!)
Humber (you can have’em!!)
Pelfrey (you can have’em!!)
Those three plus two… my guess: Heilman and a minor league pitcher.
What other pitchers is Minnesota looking at? I’d rather keep Guerra and Mulvey. They can take Heilman and make him a starter. Eddie Kunz is not trade eligible since he was drafted this year. You can trade him sometime next year but supposedly he will be on the roster. I would imagine prospects such as 3B Daniel Murphy and Jon Niese are on the list. I am still curious to know what list the Twins were given by the Mets of the players they would be ammendable to dealing.
AY DIOS MIO!
TRESCIENTOS COMENTOS!
That sounds like Omar Minaya checking Metsblog.com
id give them pelfrey,humber,heilman and gomez
or
matinez,gomez and humber
Add Niese to the first offer then sign me up.
MLBTradeRumors is reporting through a link to Minneapolis that the Twins just signed Craig Monroe for one year when eveybody over there thought Monroe would be non-tendered because of the Delmon Young trade.
Maybe this is a prelude to Omar giving up both FMart and Gomez along with pitching and we would get back Monroe with Santana. It gives us a Church-Monroe platoon and then Monroe could play LF when Alou gets hurt.
Why else would the Twins sign Monroe unless he or one of the other OF’s would come back to the Mets?
I still think we’ll get Santana with a package built around Carlos Gomez. All the talk of us not having the prospects to pull off a deal was just posturing (to get us to throw in even more, or do something completely insane and trade Jose Reyes).
Local papers in Minnesota said when the off-season started that the Twins had “targeted” Delmon Young and Carlos Gomez, and that they were willing to deal Matt Garza. They already picked up Delmon Young for Garza, and the trade for Carlos Gomez will be next.
Carlos is the guy they want as their longterm replacement for Torii Hunter.
Here’s the article:
http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/11695421.html
The only hitter the Twins have coming up through the system is Michael Crabtree. After him, it’s all pitching.
Omar I’m begging you to give the Twins what they want. 4 pitchers out of those Matt mentioned and Gomez. Keep FMart. Sign a reliever. Then we would have Pedro, Santana, Maine, Perez for as long as Omar signs them for. A great mix of youth and experience for the next three years at least. We start stockpiling good young pitchers with a good draft next year. We will not need any more young studs for the next three years and with a few good drafts in the next three years we’ll be all set with some more prospects when Pedro retires. DO IT OMAR. PLEEEEEEEEEASE.
GIVE THEM 5 PLAYERS or SIX PLAYERS OR 20 PLAYERS!!!!
Possibly a first ballot Hall of Famer and they won’t give up a second outfielder. How many starting OF’ ers have been home grown in recent years? Beltran? Alou? Church? Green? Floyd? Cameron? Endy? NO!!! OF’ers of all skills are always available.
Pelfry look like a number 1 to you? How about Humber? Mulvey’s stock hasn’t risen the others have been lowered!!!
WE NEED AN ACE. THE BEST IN BASEBALL IS AVAILABLE TO US
YOU SNOOZE YOU LOSE
If the Mets need an ace then they could be intelligent and try to get Haren for 4 players and less money rather than trade the farm for Santana and then pay him all that money as well. Thats not smart baseball. Remember when the Saints traded their whole draft to get Ricky Williams? You cant trade so many good players for one guy. It then opens up holes elsewhere.
If the A’s are waiting till Santana gets resolved before moving Haren, then the smart thing to do is stay in the Santana sweepstakes. If the Mets don’t get Santana, they can always move on to Haren.
But Haren could be harder to get than Santana because Beane can entertain all 29 other teams for trade proposals. The Twins can’t do that since Santana with his no-trade clause is in the driver’s seat alongside them. He can write his own ticket for the most part. So the Twins can only deal with a few teams, giving the Mets a better chance.
So the smart thing to do is go after Santana first. He’s the superior pitcher too.
This is not a fair comparison.
You can’t compare what the Mets are considering here to what the Saints did in the Ricky Williams trade, or what the Vikings did in the Herschel Walker trade. When you trade your entire draft in the NFL for one player it is nearly impossible to recover from it if you fall on your face. In MLB it is far easier to recover from a depleted farm system. The draft is not nearly as important as the players selected very rarely have an immediate impact on their teams like they can in the NFL.
who thinks i can be a GM here im 14 years old and i know everything about baseball trade up Gomez, Pelfrey, Humber, Heilman or a mid level prosect and either Mulvey or F-MART
yea nydre78 but we have 2 first round draft picks 18th and 22nd then we have a supplimental pick which is 33rd of 34h one of them
then we signed and always d sign the dominicans,puerto ricans and kids from Venezuela also other countries so were good on the prospect level
Futuremetsgm, if Jose Reyes leads off a game next year and hits the first pitch so hard it hits the pitching rubber and deflects all the way into the Mets dugout, what is the umpires call since the ball left the field of play?
Thisis baseball Most prospects DON’T amount to much You are getting a known quantity here for a bunch of maybes and could be’s
The Mets have been around for 45 years How many home grown stars, let alone Hall of Famers ,have they produced AND Kept!! 3 finger Brown could count them and have fingers leftover!!!
a foul ball because it never wen past 1st or third and no one touched it
is that right skip?
I think you have to pull the trigger on this deal. Gomez plus four pitchers is not really “gutting the farm” is it? The twins are not asking for 10 pitchers, or 6 outfielders.
I say trade Gomez along with Pelfrey or Humber (not both), plus three of the following: Mulvey, J Smith or Deolis Guerra, or Heilman.
Next year’s rotation:
Santana, Martinez, Maine, Perez, then Pelfrey or Humber (whichever was not traded).
id rather trade Humber rather than Mulvey
Omar,
Haga la transacción hoy por favor…Ju know wah I’m saying?
I can’t really say that I would have pulled the trigger. Maybe I’d regret that, especially if we don’t get a top pitcher somewhere else. Fact is though, the Mets offer was more than fair. The Twins are acting very greedy just because they can. You don’t ask you don’t get, so they are asking the moon. Tough spot to be in if you’re Omar.
Didnt we all figure we needed to give up more quantity to get Santana? The Yanks and Sox are believed to have better quality so to offset that we need to give up more in numbers. Thats fine. I have come to grips with giving up most of our young players for the best pitcher in the game. It is alot but he is worth it. If Omar doesnt do the deal so he can keep one or two prospects I will be pissed. Really pissed actually. We cant turn down the ace we need for the sake of keeping prospects who can be duds. DO IT NOW OMAR SO WE CAN BE EXCITED. WIN YOUR FANS BACK!
I’ve thought hard about it and I’m on board. After looking at past drafts for all teams, nobody knows who will be good and who will not. We traded Nolan Ryan when he was a prospect, for gods sakes.
Get the known quantity, deplete the unknowns, and pray for Johan’s health every day.
FuturemetsGM, keep your dream alive kid. Secretly, we ALL want to be the Mets GM. The odds are against you, but anything good is worthing working hard for.
I was 11 years old in 1969 and I even knew the Ryan for Fregosi trade was a bust when it was made. It was obvious that Ryan was a thoroughbred that just needed to harness his stuff and we knew it would happen sooner than later – which it did.
With all due respect, that was a bad example.
I tend to look at all the David Wests and Alex Escobars who we were led to believe would be superstars and, instead, were flops.
We need to due this trade.
Glider, if you knew that at 11 years old, I think YOU should have been the FuturemetsGM of your day.
I still think it’s tough to know who will pan out in the future. After all, your observation about Nolan then is very similar to what I hear about Pelfrey now, but nobody is saying to pull Pelf back from this trade.
Plus aren’t we glad that Jose Reyes did not get thrown in with the Roberto Alomar deal and the Indians took Escobar instead. Neither Phillips nor Shapiro (or was it John Hart?) had interest in Jose then.
all players have value in a trade, and a GM has to set a limit and say no when the cost exceeds that limit. Even for Santana.
Otherwise, it is like eating chicken wings and beers. It is also “just one more” and pretty soon you are passed out on the bathroom floor.
SO if Omar already feels he maxed out return value at Gomez + x, y and z, unlike many posters, he shouldn’t just throw p, q and t in just to make it happen.
The deals speculated (gomez, Pelf, Mulvey, Guerra, Heilman say) are already probably too much to give up for a 1 year rental on a SP.
At minimum, Omar needs to catagorize players like on a chinese menu. 1 from column a, 2 from b, and 1 from c.
A could be Maritinez, Gomez, GUerra, B could be perl/mulvey, c could be whatever (carp, smith).
Or say 2 of C or 1 of B. Stuff like that. Basically, if they want a more valuable prospect (in Omars extimation of course), they get less elsewhere.
So if they want Carp and Gotay and Harper, they can have those 3 instead of Pelfrey.
The players named are just examples, it’s the concept that is improtant.
IMO, they should not do a deal if it includes Guerra, F Mart or Pelfrey, unless it is primarily 1 (and only one) of these guys and a few lower tier prospects.
It sounds like Gomez is the centerpiece anyway. And they do have to be realistic about it being a very expensive rental.
So Gomez + Mulvey (or Humber, their chocie) is the core.
Then add 2 from a slightly lower tier of mixed types, like Smith, Muniz, Carp, Gotay, or some other position prospects.
Gomez, Martinez, Pelfrey, Mulvey, Heilman, Humber? That is absurd, especially for what other pitchers are fetching. Trade all those guys elsewhere for useful prospects at postions of need instead.
Santana won’t don much if they have no way to patch holes or back fill (call up or trade). Besides, whatever the do hold onto will then be traded for crap, since they have no one else available to replace someone that gets hurt.
Carlos Gomez or Fernando Martinez
+
Mike Pelfrey
+
Aaron Heilman
+
Jon Niese
+
Phil Humber
_____________
Johan Santana
That’s a lot to give up. I think Johan is a fantastic pitcher but not worth overpaying for. That package dwarfs any of the rumored offers we’ve heard for the past two weeks (although it feels like it’s been 2 years already).
Let’s hope Omar is shrewd enough to realize that before he makes any trade.
But man, Pedro AND Johan in the same rotation? Every 2 out 5 games. and then John Maine and OP backing them up. flat out nasty.
As long as we keep F’Mart and Guerra, I’m all for bringing the best pitcher in baseball to the Mets,
I couldn’t agree more. They both have the tools to be superstars in this league. I think Gomez will be a good player in this league, but It would be worth it for Johan. The Mets need a splash, they need an ace and most importantly, they need the fans back on board.
I’ve read so much Mets bashing on this site that I think it would be great for everyone on here to collectively rejoice.
can somone explain why we havnt had a new topic since 4 pm? its 11. and with news this big why nothing new simce then??????????????????????????????????????
Because a trade like this doesn’t get done in six hours. It takes days, maybe weeks, maybe even months.
There is A LOT of due diligence with a deal like this.
Months? I hope not. Pitchers and catchers report in 64 days.
I think Matts to see if we can hit 400 posts in one day. We’re close.
At 400 now.
Damn, we are good.
Cubs land Fukudome:
http://www.mlbfleecefactor.com
Would be fun to watch Santana completly bamboozle Fukodome next year. Muhahahahahah
Just pull the trigger on the this trade. If we keep either F Mart or Guerra, I’ll be happy. Ace pitchers are hard to come by and the Mets desperately need to do this. Lets Go Mets
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…Do IT…
pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaassssssse
DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Santana is the best pitcher on the planet – give Gomez & the four pitchers – keep F Mart – but if it is a deal breaker – trade him too!!!
GET SANTANA
Santana
Pedro
Maine
Perez
El Duque or Livan
wow……………none of our “prospects” are a sure thing – they might top out to be Livan Hernandez at best
Seriously if Omar doesn’t pull the trigger on this deal, I won’t be watching any games next year. Put HIELMAN IN THIS DEAL AND SIGN dOTEL OR cHACON OR BOTH. END OF STORY!
GET ER DONE!
one thing about ace pitchers being such a rare commodity. If you have one in your system that seems to have that potential, you really need to keep him.
Mulvey might be a very solid pitcher, and soon, but you can trade him. Guerra though you hang onto, since if he hits the potential people see in him, there is your next ace.
Omar can’t just sit down with the Twins, offer up some players, have the Twins say, no, we want this guy too, and say, Ok! What kind of bargaining do you guys want to go down here? I’d prefer we not get raped and actually do some bargaining. Just caving into their demands is not how you make a deal happen. The twins could say, we want Fmart too, then you say, ok Fmart it is, then they say, actually, we want Delios too, and hey, its just one more player right guys? Throw him in! Omar’s no fool (as some of you seem to think he is) and of course he’s not going to cave so easily. He’s going to work around this and try and find something else that will get it done. If it happens to be that same deal the Twins first wanted, so be it, but he’s got to work to make it better for us first. Trading players (especially of this magnitude) is a process, it’s not going to happen overnight over one discussion between the two sides.
The talks between the Twins and the Mets and Red Sox have been going on since the winter meetings. Seems like they are at a stalemate with the Mets. Which is fine unless it’s true that the Twins are willing to go ahead with the Red Sox on a package based on just Ellsbury. They are only haggling on the 4th player at this point. So if that’s true, I’d be pissed if we missed out on Johan over 1 prospect. Boston is willing to give 4, why can’t the Mets give 5? It’s just 1 more. So if the Mets are being raped, the Red Sox are at least being molested? 3 of the players they would be giving up are among the top 5 prospects in their farm system. .
the Twins seem to be taking their time with this, there’s no way they impulsively decide to take any one team’s deal. My guess is they would take that deal and go see if the other teams would then up their offer. So that being said, Omar always has the chance of doing so, I just seem to think that in the mean time, Omar is going to try and work around putting both Gomez and Fmart in the same deal (if that is even the case) or putting 4 pitchers in the deal with Gomez.
Fair enough. Perhaps that’s what the Twins will do. We also don’t even know for sure what the exact package is that Omar refused to hand over. So a little patience is called for.
But I’d rather give up the extra outfielder, F-Mart, than the extra pitcher. They already have depth in the OF (Endy or Damion in a pinch) but not too much for the rotation. I have no problems with both Gomez and F-Mart in the deal.
Well, This is my very first post here but something of this Magnitude needs to be commented on. I may be familier to some as a longtime poster over at the Mets board at scout.
The way i see it reading as many posts as i could here without going dizzy! I see many posters saying if your pitching prospects Guera/Pelfrey etc.. can be as good as santana down the road you hold on to them. Well that is juts crazy in my eyes. Santana is still young and is allready Santana! The odds of one of them being as good as he is slim as it is but if they even do reach that level they are going to be a couple years younger if not the same age as Santana is now. Sorry you go with the proven commodity here!
All the talk was Reyes is untouchable i would give up anyone but reyes, now people want to balk at giving up an additional pitcher or f-mart that is just crazy. You would never be even that lucky to acquire a pitcher of Santana’s calibur under normal circumstances. Be thankful you get to keep reyes, f-mart and heilman and still bring in the best pitcher in the game.
This should be a no-brainer!!
How about offering the Twins:
Carlos Gomez (OF)
Daniel Murphy (3B) or Stephen Holmes (P)
Mike Pelfrey or Phil Humber (P)
Aaron Heilman (P)
Matt Durkin (P)
All for Johan Santana??
MetsFan21, I just ran that by Twins GM Bill Smith, and he respectfully said you can keep Durkin, Murphy and Holmes, and asked if you would trade your top 5 prospects: Gomez, FMart, Pelfrey, Guerra, Humber. After all, it’s Johan freakin’ Santana. Whatya say?
FFFFFFFF
I have to laugh at you jokers who think the mets will sign Santana.
But they keep the the METS name in the news again.
They won’t get him BECAUSE they don’t want to PAY HIM
They want you to think they want him
Don’t you get it. We are the METS not the Yankees.
we have The Jefferey and Fred END OF STORY
I READ THIS BLOG AND KEEP THINKING OF THE MOVIE DUMB AND DUMBER
Yet, we have the highest (maybe 1-2-3 highest) payroll in the National League (Dodgers, Cubs up there too.)
BILL PULSIPHER, JASON ISRINGHAUSEN, PAUL WILSON, ALEX OCHA, GREGG JEFFERIES, JAY PAYTON,
PLEASE ADD TO THIS LIST OF METS GREATS IN THE MINORS
Tom Seaver, Ed Kranepool, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Edgardo Alfonzo, Jose Reyes, David Wright
Not disagreeing with you…just saying that you never know.
Of course you never know.
My point is to get the best you have to trade top prospects. The Mets understand that.
They are too cheap. They would rather save 5-10 Million a year and get 2nd and 3rd tier players
It’s too bad we love the Mets this much We want to win
The Wilpon’s just want to make money 1st win 2nd
Metsdude, I can’t speak for metscam, but my thought is that I’m 51% sure we should do the trade, even if they ask for the top 5. It’s a tough call for the many reasons we’ve discussed.
I’m hoping Omar is shrewed enough to get the price down to top 4 or ,aube a lower level prospect, but if I’m the Twins, I ask for the moon. What it will come down to is how good Omar is at negotiating.
Santana is proven these prospect are not, why wait for these guys when you have wright, reyes, and beltran in their primes. For all of you that want to hold onto these guys why dont you just say “Lets wait and let wright, reyes, and beltran get old so our prospects try to become the next santana. These guys can amount to squat and we are going to hold on to them and pass on the best pitcher in mlb. Give away the farm! We have money and there is always free agency. Plus with our more aggressive drafting we can re load in 2 years. Any of these prospects will take longer then that.
As I said before.
GET ER DONE!!!
SELL THE FARM TONIGHT!
Payroll is not high enough given the Mets’ insane revenues. Should be 130-140 million easy.
firemetmanagement I LOVE MAN!!!!!
You are one “best pitcher in baseball” signing away from that number. THEN will you be happy? I worry about you, ya know.
Well after 400 posts today I hope the reports we heard were accurate. Otherwise everyone one of you wasted a lot of time and emotions on complaining.
But let me just say this, after this years demise, if you have to overpay then so be it. I think you have to come back w/ a stronger team and Santana puts us light years ahead of anyone in the division. The only real concern is the bench. Trading the young ball players will deplete us quite a bit. We need a plan to replenish that part of the game. The bench was one of the major reasons why we were good the last couple of years (minus Sept. 07).
You know what? Just do it. Trade them all. Seriously.
I love Fernando Martinez but trade him away as well, I don’t care anymore. I just want Johan.
Look I think losing 4 prospects is no big thing…..The top 5 prospects change almost every year, thats why they are prospects…….Bottom line is this idea of “depleting the farm” is so silly….There are SCORES of guys in the Mets system, and though they met not be all Gomez or Fmart, they are there. We have 3b, SS, 2B, CF, catcher, all locked up……1B and the corner outfields will have to be replenished in the future, but considering Tom Glavine was the longest tenured Met last year, I think its safe to say that you sign free agents and they make your team what it is…….Finally, Wright and Reyes are two rare pieces, and EVERYONE ELSE who starts is from another system, so lets not pretend the Mets are an organization that depends on its farm……Get Johan now while we have the chaance at being the cream of the NL.
in all seriousness…i really think we are the ONLY team that is going to pay Johan 150 mil..
the kicker is I think Omar has him on a 5 yr contract with an option for a 6th and 7th year…
if they are smart, they look at the Suzuki deal and structure like that…it becomes the player’s retirement fund and it saves the team money in the short term
I dont see Santana to the Mets, not gonna happen… the closest we got was the deal they offered and it was too much, end of story.
I dont know where he goes but it aint the Mets this year :(
This offseason is starting to mirror last season, lots of hope and expectations and then… nothing.
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perhaps that’s Omar’s line of thinking. OK, we won’t give you Gomez + 4 pitchers for just Santana; however if you throw in another pitcher…
Nathan might be too much to ask for.
how about they throw in a free home run hanky and we call it a deal.
ABSOLUTELY! No question about that.
All those SNY conspiracy theorists that said he was perhaps doing this kind of unorthodox post to drive up hits on the site…
Matt’s track record speaks for itself. And it speaks even louder now.
Much respect Matt… Much Respect.
as you can see from my post below, which came in seconds after metsdude13’s, you’re wrong.
I agree, but talks and negotiations still can be going.
For once I somewhat agreewith firemetmanagement.
I’m in euphoria.
if Im Omar I do whatever I can to keep Guerra out of this deal.
they had the opportunity to “clinch” the deal and turned it down. simple as that. can’t be misconstrued. if they are still negotiating, fine, but they had a deal and turned it down.
they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down. they turned it down.
you make it sound like we wouldn’t be getting the best pitcher in baseball and a guaranteed lock hall of famer in return for two kids that still have pimples and haven’t grown hair on their chests yet.
Exactly. I know framing things that way panders to the appeal of the “win now” mentality that has been the bane of this team in the past, but let’s face it: Santana is (1) young (2) unhurt and (3) masterful. This ain’t Bret Saberhagen and his on again/ off again talent. And we need to strike while Jimmy Rollins is in his prime.
YEAH 13
Omar is parading around his two young starters in santa outfits as a ploy to get the Twins to reduce the price..
Delios Guerra is waiting to explode on the scene.. if minny really asked for him that should tell you something. hes already the mets second best prospect and he just pitched A ball for cryin out loud.
no tto mention write a 150 million dollar check paid out over seven years
Yeah Matt, I know I questioned you, I apologize
you CANNOT go into next season after the biggest choke in regular season baseball history without doing something major.
a-F’ing-men
“I’ll make it simple for you Mets, you trade your prospects, they’ll turn out great, you keep them, they’ll end up mediocre, that being the case, you HAVE to pull the trigger on this deal. Mets fans are truly down right now, and you CANNOT go into next season after the biggest choke in regular season baseball history without doing something major.”
I am not down at all. They had a bad stretch at the worst time. There is no doubt they were the best team in the NL last year, which is why I am fine. Why do u have to do something major after u miss the playoffs by one game? I am pumped for next year, and want nothing to do with Santana.
Hmmm. Could have sworn I remember teams including draft picks in trades. Guess not. Retract last statement.
o ur kool kramer wat r u 40 years old a virgin, never had a date and unemployed yea ur real kool
Prior to this comment I didn’t think your chances of becoming a major league GM were real good, but it’s obvious now that you have what it takes, which is maturity beyond your years.
yea i have always known everything u need to know about baseball een in kindrgarden and first grade and im not a loooooser that has no life like kramer and thats all i want to be is a Gm preferabley for the Mets but you cant always be picky lol
Put the glue away and go do your homework.
haha glue? and besides i already did my homework i had a science ditto and math thenks for the advice lol
No thanks. I will take 12 years of Guerra and Gomez over Johan. I wouldnt do it for those 2 alone. The resty of your proposal is just overkill.
I dont want to target your posts specifically toomany because i understand you and I see this differently. But you can not simply write off the value of the better prospects. This could have been discussed 5 years ago with Wright and Reyes. They are pretty special. Imagine trading Wright back then for say Mike Mussina? Not frickin worth it huh.
Point is you must cherry pick your best prospects that you genuinely feel are going to be special. And you do not trade them. Of the group, none of the pitchers are in that realm though Pelfrey has the highest ceiling. But you can’t dump Gomez and Fmart if you believe in one of them. Pick and keep the one you will not trade then be reasonable with the rest. They can have any one of the pitchers just not all
I would do the trade for Santana and then turn around and trade him to the yanks for Hughes and Melky.
Good deal we get a terrific pitcher and replenish the outfielders we would have lost in the original deal.
puhahahaha
good one.
gomez, martinez, pelfrey etc are also a healthy career away from doing nothing. johan is a proven stud w/no history full of injuries.
No, you’re missing the point. We’re talking about a pitcher here. A pitcher is *much* more likely to break down than a position player. A 10-year deal for ARod wasn’t a huge risk, a 10-year deal for Keven Brown was just stupid. And that was just a free agent deal. If Santana were a free agent, I’d say, yeah, it’s a no-brainer to pony up 7/140 or whatever — the upside is well worth the risk. If you’re going to add to that five of the players who are most likely to make contributions to your team in the coming years — I’m not saying that you should never do it, but it’s a *big* risk. Any time you rely on *one* player to justify wiping out a lot of other possible avenues of improving your team is a big risk. Would you trade all seven — Humber, Pelfrey, Guerra, Mulvey, Heilman, FMart, and Gomez? There’s a line somewhere, and the risk factor is part of determining where that line is.
There is, again, absolutely no evidence that Wilpon has been reluctant to spend since Minaya became GM. You can’t just say, “the payroll is only $110 million, we should have a bigger payroll.” You have to point to specific cases where Omar wanted to sign or acquire somebody and was told the Mets wouldn’t spend the money. I don’t even know of any *rumors* to that effect. Are there particular players/transactions you have in mind? Don’t tell me ARod or Posada — they never even intended to negotiate with the Mets. The Mets were ready to take on Manny’s contract two years ago when Tampa Bay nixed the 3-way deal. Are you sorry the Mets didn’t spring for Zito at 7/126?
It’s fine to say that Minaya’s made bad deals or that the farm system has been mismanaged or whatever, but this idea about Wilpon’s not being willing to spend is something that people just make up so they can have something to whine about.
Dude. it is a rental. And the Twins have no leverage as BoSox were in only to jack yanks’price for Johan.
Any of the mentioned packages are very nice for a rent a stud.
Hmm… you may be right about Guerra. But my main point stands; it’s not like the Twins are asking for Gomez, FMart, Pelfrey, Humber, Mulvey, J Smith AND Guerra. THAT would be a no go.
I pray the Mets don’t trade this guy, cause we’ll be hearing his name as one of the best prospects in the Majors by the end of this year, whether he’s on the Mets or Twins
If he doesn’t blow out his arm, which is a real possibility seeing as he’s already had arm issues.
I’m not banking the farm on a 19 yr old pitcher
Soy entrar cómodo este año con nuestro equipo.
Best part will be listening to Cubs fans yell “Fooooooook” when he comes to bat.
CORRECT…Wright and reyes are here. Kazmir was traded when he was ready for the big leagues. Nolan was also traded after he was in the big leagues, Daryl and Gooden were very special and were almost 99% going to be great. MLB players.
OK so add to your list
I’m saying the Twins look at our prospects list and they want the top 5, which unfortunately for us, includes Guerra and F-mart. That’s our quandary. Is Johan worth our top 5?
Tigers traded their top 5 plus three more for Renteria, Cabrera, Willis. They rolled the dice.
I think you might be undervaluing Guerra and FMart. Like it or not, they are already in our top 5.
You might be able to get MORE in the future, but they are our best chips even as young as they are. Our problem is that the Johan deal is on the table today, so we might get fleeced.
If Omar can end up keeping either of those guys, I’ll be impressed.
Your point is well taken. To equal the Bosox offer, it’s best OF, best P and some other low level guys, which you’ve accurately matched in Mets prospects.
The thing is that the Twins didn’t go for Bosox or Yanks offers, so they are asking for a better offer from the Mets. Let’s hope we can eek out a slightly better package than the other teams.
Maybin is going to be a good player… Miller unless he can pitch and learn how to harness his pitches, he will be a good pitcher as well. However, he has a wild streak and that means control problems. The other players the Tigers gave up are marginal except for one. The difference between the Tigers and the Mets is that the Tigers are loaded in the minors and unlike the Mets, they told Cheapo Selig to go f*** himself with the slot system by giving Rick Porcello $7M to sign right out of HS. Minaya and Wilpon: 2008 you can’t be cheap.