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At Metsradamus, John posts a photo of next year’s newest political team from DC, who, along with Manny Acta, will unite to cause problems for the Mets.
…first off, i’m glad for milledge, as a person, because i think DC and the nationals, with acta, will be a good spot for him to develop…on the other hand, Jim Bowden is his GM, who has some weird addiction to piling up outfielders, who get angry at him because that can’t get enough playing time…i mean, he did it with the Reds, when he formed a logjam with Austin Kearns, Wily Mo Pena, Adam Dunn and Ken Griffey Jr, and refused to trade one of them for pitching, despite having endless opportunities, year after year, to do so…now in DC he has milledge, Elijah Dukes and, again, kearns and pena…
…as for lo duca, i can’t lie, i am a fan and so i am disappointed he ended up in the NL East again…i wish him luck, just not on days he is playing against the Mets…
…for what it’s worth, having talked with a few people who mingled in Nashville, as well as people connected to the team, i believe lo duca’s exit and destination panned out as follows: the Mets were a bit disappointed in him, ranging from how he communicated to the team about his health to his diminishing defensive skills to his public comments about Willie Randolph; at the same time, his agent explained that he was looking for a three- or four-year deal, while the Mets only had mild interest in bringing him back on a one-year deal; so, instead, they took time to look around the market place for a better defensive, younger, short-term catcher; the Mets eventually pursued Yorvit Torrealba, than acquired Brian Schneider; and without the Mets in the market, lo duca’s options dried up, to the extent that he had to weigh one-year deals from the Blue Jays and Nationals, neither of which offered a full-time starting job; and so he latched on in DC, where he’ll get the bulk of playing time alongside Jesus Flores…
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This makes little sense, as a Mets fan, but I hope LoDuca makes us pay for this. I’m a big fan, and still think of him as the home town boy.
The Schneider deal still makes no sense at all to me. His offense is not major league level, and his defense is not a leap ahead of LoDucas. I’m still waiting for the other shoe to drop with the other side of these trades/signings.
Instead of the Los Mets theories, has anyone begun floating the bornagain Mets theories? Schneider might be Omar’s Brunell.
If Delgado doesn’t have a monster year, this team’s in trouble.
Loduca was a good #2 hitter when healthy. He was not a good #8 hitter. Schnieder’s OBP last year and for a career are ahead of Loduca’s. How does that make Loduca a better #8 hitter. Don’t we want that player to get on base more so we can clear the pitcher? Some of you just don’t get the big baseball picture. We traded a player with potential, potential to be great or potential to bust, for 2 MLB proven players.
his offense is of a lot of major league catchers…there was noone out there that was an outstanding catcher…lo duca is getting old and obviously has diminished skills…
Schneider IS a leap ahead of Pauly’s D…seriously…MUCH better…
This team is in trouble if the pitching doesn’t come through, its not on Delgado at all
I think this is a very important point. There are certainly a number of legitimate reasons to dislike this trade overall, but people need to stop pretending that Schneider is a below MLB-capable hitting catcher or that he’s not almost certainly an upgrade from Paulie. Among regular starting catchers (120+ games), he was 6th in the majors last year in OBP, higher than guys like LoDuca (who would have been 9th if he had caught one more game to make 120), Johjima, McCann, Pierzynski, Estrada, I-Rod, and other catchers whom nobody considers “unable” to hit in the majors. Does he have much power? No. Is he some sort of fantastic offensive threat? No. But the fact of the matter is that he is, actually, a pretty average MLB offensive catcher overall, will almost certainly come close to or exceed Paulie’s offensive output at age 36 next year, will almost certainly be hurt a lot less, and presents a substantial defensive upgrade.
Also, I think people put way too much stress on throwing out runners as a measure of catching defense. The difference between Schneider and LoDuca isn’t just who throws out a few more runners. You would have an almost impossible time finding an MLB GM, scout, or other knowledgeable evaluator of talent who wouldn’t put Schneider miles ahead of LoDuca in terms of blocking the plate, directing infield traffic, handling the staff, etc. These are the things that make a defensive catcher and are why defense at catcher is more crucial than just about anywhere else on the field.
Good points all.
I’m not rooting for the success of anybody not wearing a Met uniform.
You can root for him, just not when he is playing the Mets. A statement like that is just being stubborn. I liked Lo Duca, I hope he has success elsewhere.
I’m with cyclone.
Milledge and LoDuca will fit in well with all the politicians in DC . . . they all love the young girls . . .
nice
HEHEHEHE
I am sure there will be some that will continue to bash this trade. Milledge will most likely do well in Washington. But what people will not realize is that just because he does well in Washington does not mean he would have done well here in a high pressure situation. Siimilar to Brian Bannister.
I got to thinking about some of the trades that are bashed the most on here (at least the ones Omar made). Some of these trades are unfairly being judged too early.
Bannister may turn out to be a quality #5 but what about Burgos? If his arm returns to health then a Sanchez, Burgos bullpen features 2 hard throwing righties that can close if needed.
How about the Lindstrom Owens trade. That is one that is used frequently. I wonder if people realize that we got 2 YOUNG lefties out of that trade? We hear that LHP take longer to develop, guys these two are only 24 years old. They are only 1 year older than Pelfrey and younger than Humber.
Take a look at their numbers in a hitters league last year.\
Vargas finished only 12 SO behind Humber for the league leader, and that was with 14 less innings. His ERA was 4.97 which sounds high until you realize that Humber lead the league with a 4.27.
Bostick is very raw. He is a high strikeout pitcher, 8.5 per 9 innings. His control is the issue right now, giving up too many walks and hits. But on a closer look, look at his winter numbers, incredible. I actually think that in a couple of years he could be competing for a rotation spot.
Give these trades time before we bash them, please. If not you run the risk of looking quite foolish.
well said on the trades..
And LoDuca is as much of a Home town boy as anyone who was born in brooklyn and moved out west before they started first grade.
Lo Duca is more a Dbacks home town boy
very true. notice that his comments from the knicks game last week was when they were playing the Suns.
Agreed – although I definitely think Bannister had the makeup to succeed in NY. If we’d held on to him, I think we’d all be talking about Johan Santana right now – Bannister would be the young ML-ready arm to go with Gomez that they are looking for.
Instead we get periodic Eddie Coleman updates on Burgos’s yearlong rehab!
On paper even Paul Byrd looks like a winner. Just because he had a winning record doesn’t necessarily mean that all of MLB will be clamoring to get him.
I still don’t think that Bannister’s 2007 performance is going to be the standard for his career.
exactly Danny,
Bannister was a soft-throwing righty who walks WAY too many batters. He could never make it out of the 5th as a Met because his pitchcount was already north of 100 by the end of the 4th inning.
Just because Bannister went to KC and put up an average year doesn’t mean he is a stud in the making.
Bannister doesn’t K anyone and he walks way too many batters. And please do not use the fact he won 15 games last year as any sort of indication that he has talent. Wins are meaningless for pitchers.
Prediction: Bannister had his career year last year and will never find any sort of success similar to last year. He will be nothing more than a back of the rotation guy on a bad MLB team.
agree.. except for he only won 12 games last year
Bannister pitched like a #2 this year, and I can see him being a solid #3 type starter throughout his career. Many feel he would have had no problems pitching in NY, and he may have done even better in the NL outside of the AL Central with its hitter friendly parks. Right now Burgos has no value. Zilch.
Lindstrom was a solid reliever this year while none of the pitchers Omar got back for him have impressed. Right now his value is greater than both those pitchers.
**So far** those two trades have been failures for Omar. Could it turn around? Sure. But I doubt it.
Lindstrom did have a decent year but he is 27. Omar saw no place for him on the MLB level because at the time Sanchez was healthy.
By did not impress, you mean like Dan Haren did when was in AAA and 24 years old (4.15 ERA) or like Bedard did with his 4.10 ERA and 6-10 record for Baltimore when he was 24? I am not saying that they will turn out to be great but Vargas showed tremendous potential but was brought up way to fast, as for Bostick I still expect him to contribute either as a starter or reliever. There is always a spot for a LHP that has a high K rate.
Fact is that Omar traded 2 older relief pitchers who at the time were not needed for 2 young LHP with potential. Lets at least wait until they are 27 before we deem this trade a failure.
Who cares how old he is? Who’s more valuable? A 27-year old who pitches well or two 23-year olds who pitch like cr@p? Gee, do you think when Lindstrom shut down the mets in September, the hitters, fans and Omar were saying — “Gee, that’s OK, cause he’s 27!” The idea is to win, not run a nursery school.
And by didn’t impress, I meant a 7.33 ERA for the Marlins in 2006 and a 12.19 ERA for the Mets this year. Or the 5.66 ERA Bostick put up in AAA. His K rate was nothing special either.
Who said Lindstom and Bannister weren’t needed? That’s where’s Omar’s questionable judgment comes in. Any year in which you have Park and Lawrence making starts, then a Bannister is needed.
I see that you conviently forgot to mention Vargas’ rookie season with the Marlins where he finished # 8 in the ROY voting but…..
Point is still that Omar did not see the need for aging relievers who did not fit into his plans for the pen. He saw an opprotunity to get younger with 2 LHP with potential and that’s what he did. Again, where will Vargas and Bostick be when they turn 27 who knows. Just realize that some moves are made for the future and not for the present.
And when did 91 K’s in 97 innings in a hitters league become unimpressive?
Vargas — career ML ERA – 5.81. That’s terrible. At any level about AA his ERA has been awful. I don’t see how one year of mediocre pitching with the Marlins can negate his awful record in the most recent year NOR his lousy stats in the high minors.
We are all aging. Again, if Omar saw the need for a juiced reliever like Mota, but failed to see the need for Bannister or Lindstrom, then you have to question his judgment. I think the organization DID need those two. The bullpen was the achilles heel all year long and could have benefited from both.
The desire to get younger in the minor leagues for the sake of getting younger is a flawed strategy.
not to mention Lindstrom failed to advance past Double A Ball in 5 non distinctive minor league seasons and Vargas was rushed through the Marlins minor league system in 2 years. Going from low A Ball in 2004 to starting major league games in 2005. he threw less than 110 innings in the minors.. another 1/2 season of seasoning in NOLA and he’ll be back on track.
Mets pitchers often fail to advance past AA because the FO has this genius idea to stock AAA with so many scrubs and washed up vets. That’s one reason why Norfolk dumped the Mets. It’s a poor practice of the Mets.
Fact is, Lindstrom had excellent numbers at AA in 2006 with a superb K rate. Failing to give him a shot at the major league level was a failure of the FO.
dont forget he pitched in 11 games in A ball St Lucie in 2006 as a 26 year old.
in addition to 70 strike outs in 59 minor league innings in 2006 (spanning A ball and AA ball)
he managed to Hit 5 batters, throw 4 wild pitches and walk 21 batters,.
he ended his 2006 minor league campaign with a 3.73 ERA in 41 innings in Binghamton
the dude hardly inspired the confidence to try him out in a ML pennant race
Why is it relevant where a player starts out the year? I don’t see any relevancy at all. Some of the prospects get pushed all the way down the chain because of this tendency to clog up AAA with rejects. The only important thing is that he pitched really well at AA and should have gotten called up. He had a superb K rate and was less wild than Burgos. I would say if he didn’t inspire confidence, then that’s a problem with the people who are making the decisions.
Beinfest had no problem being inspired by Lindstrom.
:lol:
You mean like Andrew Millers numbers did? 5.63 ERA and he was a key piece in the Cabrerra trade. Or like Maine’s 9.82 and 6.30 ERA’s did?
The ONLY thing Lindstrom did well at AA ball was strike out batters. every other stat was not even close to good.
maybe vargas had such a good rookie year because Lo Duca was catching him. Willis, mota, and vargas all seemed to have good years with paulie behind the plate. Include maine and perez to that this year. I think he calls a better game for young pitchers than people think. Who has schneider turned into a 15+ game winner at a young age? NOBODY!!!!!!
LETS GO NATS…..I MEAN METS!!…(i think?)
Andrew Miller was a first round pick who has good minor league numbers, but his major league numbers are awful. IMO, Maybin was the key to that deal. Miller and Willis are basically a wash — 2 pitchers whose most recent stats were not pretty in the majors.
If you ask me, the Tigers got the better end of that deal. So I’m not sure what relevance Miller has to the discussion.
As for Maine, he was a last minute throw-in to the Julio deal. How is he relevant to the discussion? Benson’s value was marginal since he put up mediocre numbers, was often injured, did not have the stamina to pitch near 200 innings, and was due to make $15M+ over the next 2 years.
In the minors, especially for a reliever (whose ERA can be skewed), peripherals such as K rate are often more important. Lindstrom’s K rate was terrific.
IF Bannister pitched like a number two starter he did it on a dreadful team that didn’t win 70 games
but his peripheral stats were average to poor..and his BABIP was among the best in the league.
Kaufmann stadium in KC is hardly a hitters park.
he won 11 games in 2007 .. id bet he doesn’t get to double digits in 2008
Current multi-year park factors for Kauffman say it’s a hitters park. Moreover, some of the other parks in the AL central are strong hitters parks as well. Moreover, the DH is no picnic. If he pitched for the Mets, I be his win total would have been higher.
From all accounts, he was very comfortable in NY and no one (except some fans) really believe he wouldn’t have been able to pitch here. Wins are are a poor measure for pitchers. I bet he has about 18 quality starts or more in 2008.
if park factors show kauffman to be a hitters park thats only because the royals have a terrible team..and had – By far – the worst team slugging percentage on the road
the dimensions are 330 down the lines, 400 to dead center and 375 in the alleys
You really don’t understand how park factors are done, do you? It doesn’t matter how good or bad a team you have. Park factors are determined in relation to all the other parks in the majors and include stats of visiting teams as well. Of course you can always have a year that’s an anomaly, but we’re talking about multi-year park factors here. Kaufman has always been considered a hitters park.
stop your holier than tho BS
the fact of the matter is bannister was incredibly lucky and had poor peripheral stats regardless of the park he pitched in.
he was 7th or 8th on the Mets 2007 pre season staring 5 depth chart.. and pitched way above his ability in 2007 with a horrible team
if he amounts to anything more than a back of the rotation journeyman starter most people will be amazed.
Excuse me? You are simply wrong in thinking the caliber of a team has a significant impact on multi-year park factors. Wrong. The fact of the matter, peripheral stats can be affected by park factors. And, IMO, BABIP is a bunch of cr@p (generally speaking).
I don’t give a damn where he was on the Mets depth chart. Don’t you understand? If he was undervalued by the Mets brass, which apparently he was, that’s part of the problem. Your reason is thus circular.
He pitched in a more difficult division for a pitcher than the NL east. It’s often harder to pitch for a crappier team than a good one. . The only ones who will be amazed if he amounts to more than a #5 is the Omar apologists.
of course Burgos doesnt have any value..
99.999% of pitchers who are 4 months removed from TJ Surgery dont.
But that’s exactly the point. We traded a solid starter for a reliever with a suspect arm and pitching IQ. Maybe the fact that he’s been so wild is a clue to his philosophy of pitching which often leads to arm problems. Bottom line: ZERO VALUE.
i would have described his arm as electric at the time of the trade. not suspect.
pitching IQ generally comes with experience. granted bannister’s was higher .. maybe had something to do with his father being an accomplished ML pitcher..
but id think that with a young gun that the catcher would be relied upon for pitch location and selection.. which is probably why Paul Lo Duca is no longer the catcher.
I disagree. You’re either born with pitching IQ or you never have it. Some never get it. Like. Bentiez. Pedro was born with it. Burgos wasn’t.
And now you’re blaming Lo Duca for Burgos blowing out his arm? That’s a reach.
As for Peterson’s 10 minutes — Burgos already had his. Didn’t seem to work that well.
Come on that’s just wrong. You have no idea what Burgos’ pitching IQ is or even if he will be sucessful, he’s 23 years old!
There were reports that in the beginning of spring training, he’d rear back and throw at full velocity. Now how smart is that? No wonder he needed TJ.
i think its more likely that you are born with an ability to throw 100 mph than to have a “pitching IQ”
Do you really think you are born with an ability to know what pitch to throw and when and how fast..
no one is born with a pitching IQ.. thats just ridiculous.
How dare a kid not know (after coming from KC) that you should not throw hard. Maybe someone should tell him that before its too late? Oh well, he’s done for life now at such an early age. No need for surgery, just amputate now while there’s still time.
I think some are born with BOTH an ability to throw 100 mph and a high pitching IQ. IOW, the innate smarts to know how to pace yourself.
What if someone told Burgos to pace himself? What if he just ignored them? Oh well, it’s too late. His value is zilch now. Nice job, Omar.
jesus christ how can a trade be a failure before Day 1 of the season. I know we’re all GM’s, but come on give it a chance — at least give the off season a chance to complete and look at things as a finished product.
Methinks the Mets will be in 1st at the All Star break by 3 1/2 games and we’ll have made a blockbuster trade at the deadline.
WOW
you guys really drink the cool aid.
Why because I don’t see trading 2 27 year old relievers for 2 young LHP with potential as a horrible trade. It may be but I am inclined to at least wait a couple of years to see where these guys end up. In 3 years I will look back on Bannister, Lindstrom, Owens, Burgos, Vargas and Bostick and make my decision then. Until then it is a trade of useable parts for potential.
In 3 years, you’re going to forget and support the next moves that the Mets make.
You are prob. right. Especially considering that’s there’s a chance that none of them will ever do anything to make me remember them.
It must be grape…
that stuff is delish…ahhhh the good ole days
Agree with most here except that Vargas is absolutely terrible. Watching him pitch was extremely painful. Please don’t let him near a major league mound as a Met ever again.
Those 2 guys are gonna cream us when they come to town…
…if they’re in the lineup.
I can see a 50/50 split for LoDuca and Flores, and Milledge has to win a job with Dukes there too.
who’s next DC, Traschel, Valentin, Victor Diaz?
…they were the other team after Glavine too.
Its like Edmonton East, only without the stanley cup winners…
has anyone ever seen Jim Bowden and Glen Sather in the same room at the same time?
actually, I would bring back Victor Diaz to platoon with Church. He wouldn’t cost much, has pop, kind of a fan favorite here.
Not if our pitchers throw Milledge outside breaking balls that bounce in the dirt. That’s an easy strikeout. As for LoDuca, he never walks, so just don’t bother throwing him anything over the heart of the plate, and he’ll tap a groundball somewhere. It could find a hole and make it to the outfield, but taking into account LoDuca’s home-to-first split, Beltran will have a shot to scoop it up and throw him out at first.
are people really worrying about milledge and loduca hurting the mets this year?
maybe everyone should take a second or two to think about last season and specifically the last month. the nationals did a whole lot of damage to the mets and there were two players (hint: both are now ex-nationals) in particular that set a pretty high standard for lastings and lo duca to live up to if they want to now be called mets killers.
It’s hard for me to question the Mets only having mild interest in giving Lo Duca a full-time job when the other 29 teams had none.
Q: whats the best way to lose your job with the Mets?
A: Become DWrights best friend.
McEwing, gone
Floyd, gone
LoDuca, gone
who’s next?
;)
Schoenweis?
We can only hope they are BFF.
hahahaha
someone ignite their bromance.
Sort of funny on Wright. Aren’t he and Maine tight?
I think the departure of Paul LoDuca has been the most overblown development in years for this team. I get that people identify him as a ‘hometown’ guy and that he was a huge part of the 2006 Mets, but people act like he was here forever. Put aside for a fact that it was Milledge in the trade, but I think Schneider is exactly what this team needed behind the plate. he is a leader of both staff and team, plays hard, plays hurt, and as one poster detailed earlier is not the dreadful offensive player he is made out to be, especially in the 8th spot. Schneider to me is in the Brad Ausmus mold, and he’s the type of guy winning teams usually have.
LoDuca is completely breaking down and declining – and he was one of the guys who you expected to rally this team in September and instead all we got was pounting and whining and finger-pointing. Kind of have to wonder if bitterness has something to do with the decision to go to the Nats…sure the Blue Jays are stuck with the Red Sox and Yankees, but they still offer a far better chance to win – something LoDuca always talks about as his only goal – than do the Nats.
I just don’t get the Piazza like love the LoDuca gets from Met fans. He was a nice player for a year and then fell of considerably.
Look, if he had any skills left, he’d be signing a richer deal than a one-year pact as a mentor to a young catcher. The guy is done…lets get over it and move on.
:)
I don’t get it either….I was fine with Paulie the first year because we were winning, but he became a little bit of a whiny b*tch last year…
I happen to believe DC is a good place for both Paul and Lastings to land. First let me say that if anything Manny Acta should be managing the Mets not Willie. The Mets do not have anyone in management who believes in or is willing to go out on a line for any of our younger players. Not Rick Peterson and certainly not Willie Randolph. Omar hired a puppet in Willie and this win now mantra sounds real hollow from both of these fools. Both Willie and Omar are concerned about their own contracts and status with the team, not helping our youth develope. It is a major problem for the long term success of our team. That being said, I believe Lastings will flourish with Manny. Lets Go Mets!
You’ve got to be kidding. The reason small-market teams are so patient with younger players is that there’s no pressure on them to win each year. They can trot out the young guys and see who sticks and who stinks. It’s NOT a good way to develop talent, however. Witness the amazing number of injuries suffered by teams like the Marlins. Some players just need more time in the minors. Players like, I don’t know, Erik Bedard and Dan Haren.
As it is, many insiders feel the Mets rush their young talent. If Willie and Omar had stuck with young players who were clearly not ready, they’d be crucified by–people like you.
I think the Mets rushed some of their position players, but not their pitchers. Where was Humber in August? Oh, right, he was pitching a near no-hitter for AAA while Lawrence was stinking it up for the big club. Why wasn’t Lindstrom a callup last September (in 2006) or getting a shot during the year? There are other relievers who could have been called on as well.
Part of the reason small-market teams are patient with younger players is economic. They can’t afford to sign vets at all positions the way the Mets can. They can’t afford the alternative.
If anything, the available evidence suggests that both Pelfrey and Humber were rushed, not moved too slowly. Starting pitchers usually log 300-500 innings in the minors before throwing their first major league pitch. Pelfrey has 176 minor league IPs, while Humber has 289. Not enough.
Is that for college pitchers or drafted out of high school? Big difference.
I think the plan last year with Humber was to give him a FULL season at NOLA to recover both physically and mentally from his surgery..
I give kudos to the Mets fro sticking to that plan even when Brian Lawrence is the only available option in the dog says.
giving him a little taste in September was a reward and something to look forward to. I think he’ll contribute at the ML level in 2008.
Yes, it’s true for college pitchers too. Most of the good ones have 300+ minor league IPs.
Haren: 471 IPs
Blanton 364 IPs
Bedard 320 IPs
Maine 520 IPs
Etc. Etc.
That’s misleading. Haren made his major league debut after about 350 innings, and Maine after about 470 innings. But the important point is that Humber was pitching very well at New Orleans late this year, in a hitters league. I think he was ready. Go by how they pitch at the upper levels. Not by how many innings they have pitched in the minors. For every pitcher you show who had more innings than Humber before their debut, I can find you successful ones who had about the same OR less.
As for his one start in September — it was terrible to ask him to do that after he hadn’t pitched much the previous two weeks. By the time he took the mound he was rusty.
For the record, people like me would prefer to have a better balance of veterans and younger players. We have evolved into a bunch of senior citizens (Moses, Old Duque..) with a group of core players D. Wright, Reyes and Beltran. My bigger problem is that we have a manager who despises younger players, and Lastings Milledge in particular. If Willie Randolph was such a professional why even bother to attemp to throw Milledge under the bus? Be a man or be a better person, don’t be vicious and try to hurt a 22yo kid further than you already have. It was another Willie the Gut moment when he refused to accept any blame or responsibility for the lack of controll or motivation of the players on the team. What does Willie try to do? Blame the kid. In my opinion Willie was wrong, and he deserves any and all critisism thrown his way! Lets Go Mets!
So essentially we’ve traded our right fielder and catcher for the Nationals right fielder and catcher….fantastic.
Omar might want to start looking for trades with teams thats rosters aren’t made up of a pile of steaming crap. Perhaps a team with an over .500 winning percentage for starters.
Cherrypicking players from terrible teams gets the Mets nowhere. Put a positive spin on the Schneider and Church acquisitions all you want Cerrone….this off season is a bust to date, and the Mets were worse starting in 2007 as opposed to 2006, and look like they will be even worse starting 2008 than they were in 2007.
Our lineup has monumental holes…especially when Alou takes his 3 month vacay in FL starting in May. We all know Delgado is finished. The guy looks like hes using a 9 iron at Pebble Beach every time he swings the bat. We still have a makeshift rotation, and a nightmare of a bullpen.
World Series here we come! Omar better thanks his lucky stars he has a new stadium opening up in a year, because I’m thinking Shea will be pretty desolate come September.
I do find comfort in that we can’t be worse than the Marlins however….even though all their 23 yr old flame throwers find ways to shut us down time and time again.
Of all the arguments against this trade (and as I’ve said before, there are very legitimate ones out there), this is the one that make by far the least sense but is one that gets posted regularly. You don’t want guys who played on bad teams the year before? These comment spaces are filled with requests for guys like Bedard, Kazmir, Cabrera, Cain, Dunn, and Lincecum, all of whom played on teams with a winning percentage below the Nats last year. Would you really not take any of them on the grounds that their teams were bad?
You make exceptions for skills, of which Church and Schneider do not have. Please don’t request for us to state the obvious.
For something that’s supposed to be “stating the obvious,” this is oddly ambiguous and confusing…
Do you mean “skills” in a general sense? In that case, doesn’t that qualification make the whole “team” issue moot? Are you suggesting that you would be happy with unskilled players from good teams? If not, how is that any different from just saying that we want the most skilled players regardless of their team, which was my entire point in the first place?
Do you mean that you don’t want any players from bad teams unless they’re star players? In that case, I can just use other obvious examples. Are you suggesting that you wouldn’t want James Shields as a fourth or fifth starter? Brandon Phillips as our second baseman? Matt Capps for the bullpen? You would turn these non-stars down just because they played for bad teams?
Are you only talking about the general skills of these specific players? Even if you think that Milledge has more upside than he’s being given credit for (which is, i think, a very reasonable argument), clearly, for 2008, Church has more “skills” on defense and against a wider range of pitching (having trouble against lefties does not equal having trouble against righties, of whom there are many more, and breaking pitches), and Schneider has more “skills” than LoDuca on defense and in getting on base. Even if you don’t think these skills are worth trading Milledge, you can’t really deny that they’re there….
I do find comfort in that we can’t be worse than the Marlins however….even though all their 23 yr old flame throwers find ways to shut us down time and time again.
They don’t need to be flamethrowers to shut us out. They just need to be rookies.
“So essentially we’ve traded our right fielder and catcher for the Nationals right fielder and catcher….fantastic.”
If phrasing it that way makes you feel worse about it then by all means go ahead.
Phrasing it this way makes me feel better about it:
“So essentially we traded a minor league outfielder prospect for a starting RF and a starting C. Our former starting C left via free agency and had to settle for a one year pay cut contract to play part time for losing team.”
Paul LoDuca is not a great player by any stretch of the imagine. I don’t really understand Cerrone’s affinity for him.
The fact that he had to latch-on with Washington for a crappy 1-year deal speaks volumes about him as a player and how he’s viewed.
Later Paulie. Thanks for having a good year in 2006. Tell Milledge I said hello.
yep…
being “Gritty” is waaaaay overrated…wtf does “gritty” mean anyways?
NY’rs have this thing with hometown people playing for the Mets. Me, I don’t care if my guys are mutton-chop wearing Amish folk that follow that Hawk as long as they produce…
couldn’t agree with you more.
last time I checked….”gritty” had him batting near the Mendoza line, throwing out virtually….oh right, NOBODY.
thats a BS statistic and everyone knows it.
it all comes down to one thing….PRODUCTION. PERIOD.
we boo’d John Franco out of town REAL quick when he started to decline and…
A) he was a NY’r
B) he was a loooong time Met
C) he was one of the better closers of all time
….I, personally, have nothing against Loduca, but I’m starting to get real agitated with all this blind respect he seems to be getting…
He had an awkward departure. The Mets just kinda let him go after his first season. They demoted him in the lineup and messed around with wasting Wright in the 2 hole.
Why would you put Wright in the 2 hole when LoDuca is perfect for that role?
Why would you bat Beltran, a career 270 hitter in the 3 hole? He’s a classic cleanup hitter.
Why why why?
Because Willie likes to do things opposite of the popular opinion. Why did he start Brian Lawrence in crucial spots over Humber because in his opinion “it’s not fair to do that to a kid”, only to finally relent and start Humber against the Nationals in a crucial game in the last week of the season after Humber sat idle for weeks on end?
Bottom of the 9th down by 2, man on 1st and 2nd with no outs, bottom of the order up, what do you do?
Willie? what do you do?
pinch hit with Julio Franco
WRONG!
You let a rusty Cliff Floyd end his Met career with a strikeout.
you keep lo duca around because he is a ‘perffect #2 hitter’? why? because he is 20% worse than league average last year? because he can hit into double plays with one of the fastest guys in baseball on first?
lo duca put together a decent career but its over. he now stinks. hes also annoying and stupid and now he plays for a divisional rival (i know, its only technically a ‘rival’ but still). we should all be glad this dummy is gone.
EXACTLY
i can’t help but think how bad it is for milledge to be teammates with elijak dukes…talk about a bad influence…and it just seems to me they’ll become friends.
Maybe they will, and maybe it will be good for both of them. Maybe they won’t. Maybe Lo Duca will turn them both into compulsive gamblers or productive horse-trainers. Who knows?
For the record, I don’t think Milledge has anything close to the kind of baggage Dukes does.
not even close re:baggage comparison. But I can see Dukes joining the rap group, turning it into a trio
LoDuca will be in charge for bringing the young ladies to the parties…
and when I say young ladies, i’m not being respectful to women, I actually mean “young ladies”….
You know L-Millz will be there to bed they kneez, for realz, he’s be the real dealz
Maybe LoDuca will help their rap career by introducing them to his friend R Kelly at a junior prom.
You guys sound like David Duke!
Hey, leave me out of this. . . .
http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/12337791.html
That’s depressing, especially the bit about Minaya simply posturing to appease the fan base. I WILL NOT BE APPEASED!
this guy just writes what he thinks…some ppl think…yeah who…thats all he did was speculate at the winter meetings and thats all he’s doing in this article…i can see why elsbury has to be involved bc the twins are doing the red sox a favor if they take coco crisp…gomez has a much bigger upside and i think a package with gomez and heilman is better than a package of crisp and lester…i think most of you would agree…now if you throw ellsbury in its a different story but well see…i’m actually starting to not care so much anymore with who we get…one of these guys would be nice to have but well obviously still be competitive without one of them…although if they dont get a starter they need to get an arm for the pen…and theres not much left out there
There’s some inconsistency in the article, too. The Mets are “out of it” because they don’t have pitching, but the offer they take from the Red Sox is two position prospects and a reliever?
Strange!, But, Just wish The Big O had such vision in not
Re-upping a 2B for 4 yrs.,who is clearly on the decline both
physically and perfomance-wise. As well as con’t to give 10s
of mils to a LF who is in his 40s,ALWAYS hurt and ready to pack
it in. Not to mention(but I will)-Handing out crisp,fat,new contracts
last yr. to BOTH Valentin & Mota who’ve been on the decline for
several yrs prior, after we caught lightning in a bottle w/ both
for a few months.–Kind of strange, no?
Well, we all know what they have in common!
Something LoDuca Doesn’t.
yeah, they don’t play catcher
Nor does Schnieder or Church.
Ya know, As I was about to hit enter, I thought, I should
type in ” and i’m not talkin’ about him being a catcher”
But then I thought, Nah, thats to easy.
Thanks for confirming!
glad to help.
this thread is already full of the whole “anti-semite or not” debate, was hoping to avoid filling it with the “mets or los mets” debate
But really, SUDDENLY, The Big O is worried about age,injury,
potential lack of performance and money??
Omar just traded for two white guys…can we give the Los Mets thing a rest already! PS….they are REALLY white!
yeah, the real reason Omar acquired Church was so that in day games the sun reflecting off of his whiteness will blind opposing hitters.
I didn’t say anything about Los Mets.
But the fact that you read in it as such proves the point.
Is it just all a coinscience??
b/t/w–He “appeases” But NOT in that respect??
No prob trading away Lasto BUT for ryan church??
Come on !!—-++Do Note Gomez appears the untouchable
in all these trade talks.–But no, its just me/us, Not Saint O.
what I “read in it as such” proves only that I am familiar with the content of the reply section discussions of metsblog.com
Or maybe Gomez came up with a great attitude and they are willing to wait on him. Or that Milledge was not wanted by most teams and was not valued more than 2 established MLB players in Church and Schnieder. Have you thought about the fact that the trade may be the best we could get out of Milledge?
gomez? great attitude? so i guess you turned the other cheek when gomes styled after hitiing a deep fly ball foul, then in the same at-bat, dtyled again when did hit a home run. but i guess you didn’t see that right?
interesting
Thank you too!
If in the end all you can get for a guy who was your #1
prospect ayear ago and didn’t get hurt and is still a
kid is a very good defensive catcher at the end of his
prime and a 4th OFer who was never a big prospect
from a losing team, then YOU DON’t TrADE HIM!!!
You give him a legit chance to play everyday!!
Could his value have dropped anymore??
I dont see it. Maybe there are character issues BUT
this kid aint Elija Dukes or Josh Hamilton!
I do think that , in the end omar improved our catching situation
but like 3 yrs ago, he did it by chance not design.
’cause if things had went the way HE wanted we’d had been
looking @ Hernandez the last couple and Torrealba this
season. Then again, if Hernandez had accepted the offered contract O would have likely given him an extention by now.
At least you believe that the catching situation has been improved, which does give us something to agree on despite our other differences of opinion on the state of the Mets.
Please spread that part of your gospel to the flock. Oh sorry, was that too Christian a phrase?
Hey man, I don’t know what you do, But me, I’m in the fact
business. And if I was a preacher I’d Love Church, No??
Not look at him for what he is, a 4th OFer(maybe) on a good-
team.But and However, you’ve got to admit, O’s moves the
last couple of seasons have not made this team better for
either now or the near-future. And theres NO excuse!
Not this off-season when we had 40% of salaries coming off
the books AND he had Atleast 40 in seasons salary to
spend for ‘08. Heck, theres OFers out there and Iguchis gonna
get a contract for half of what he gave a broken-down Castillo.
Theres no excuse!!–You know Alou only going to play half the time and HEs our 5/6 hitter?-O.K you got me things look Peachy.
Why do you think that Church is a 4th OF. Is it his numbers .280 15-20 HR and good defense or uh……..
Career OPS+ of 80 against LHP. That may fly elsewhere, but contending teams don’t let numbers that bad linger too long in everyday lineups. He’s not an everyday player. Maybe more than just a half and half platoon. But he should never see a lefty.
Thank You !
We’re gonna need this guy to be our 2nd best OFer
because, you just have no idea what we’ll get out of
Alou(thanks again,omar).
Nationals are gonna be sick …..lol
What are we thinking about? Are we still supposed to believe LoDuca was run out of town as the result of some conspiracy based on his comments to the press? He is an aging, declining catcher who wanted a long-term deal…this had nothing to do with comments.
And honestly, why do we keep bringing this up with Church? Baseball is not a religious forum – I for one couldn’t care less about his opinion on the matter and would really hope that Mets fans are enlightened enough to realize that he is entitled to whatever beliefs he wants to have, and they have absolutely no import on anyone else’s life.
I think Imus ended up with more money, so maybe an apology works :)
As for Church, do not listen to the baseball heads that like to say he is a 4th OF. Look at his numbers for yourself. He plays high quality defense and has a good OBP and hits for some power. I would expect his numbers to be as good or better than Milledge’s without all the drama. He’s also LH and kills RH pitching, something we need with Delgado being a question mark. Plus, again he can play reliable defense and Milledge could not.
they arent going to do squat. milledge maybe – lo duca? put down the pipe. hes 36, slower than me and only hits singles. whats he going to do, sacrifice bunt us to death?
and church is better than you think. RFK is a terrible hitters parks. i bet people will be pleasantly suprised with churchie.
I’ll take a proven .275 hitter with some pop and solid D in RF and can’t figure out why others won’t.
Us fans want to “win now”, but we want to “win now” with a unproven Lastings Milledge in RF. It just doesn’t jive for me. Let’s take the 275, 20HR, 402B, 80RBI and solid defense that Church will give us and be happy with it.
The only thing LoDuca and Lastings MIGHT do for the Nats is take them from really bad to a little less than really bad…
Another job in radio. What are you God, you decide who’s given a second chance and who isn’t, take it easy. Plus I heard Churchs comments were taken way out context. A washington reporter was on the FAN and said that.
apologizing got Imus a couple months paid vacation followed by a new job with a different radio station and tv network.
Please don’t start this nonsense again.
Church’s comments were taken completely out of context at the time of the incident. To attempt to label him an anti-semite, or anything of the sort, is ludicrous.
Please go back and re-read the circumstances of the incident. Anyone who tries to stir up garbage to turn large groups of Met fans against Church for what he said is as shortsighted as anything that could have come out of his mouth.
The whole Church thing is, and was at the time, a non-issue.
right on
I liked LoDuca, but the fact was his offensive skills were declining and he stunk at throwing out baserunners. I also don’t like the way he minimized his injuries so he could catch Glavine’s 300th win. He was clearly more injured than he let on during that period and the team suffered as a result.
That said, if LoDuca was willing to consider a one year deal with the Mets, I’m sure he would have been re-signed. But he came out of the gate demanding a 3-4 year deal and there’s no way that was going to fly with a 36 year old catcher. So Omar was forced to look elsewhere.
I honestly don’t know how much effort the Mets made to contact LoDuca after the Torrealba deal fell through. I think there were too many enough hurt feelings on both sides for any serious discussions.
What I don’t understand though is what the Mets are going to do with Estrada. It seems increasingly likely that trade was just a pure salary dump that got rid of Mota as an added benefit. I would have been perfectly happy with Estrada behind the plate and would rather Omar went after Church and a relief pitcher for Milledge, but I’m guessing that wasn’t an option for him.
IMO Church will be very similar to Nady, just from the other side. He will excell against RHP, but will make us want to bench him or PH for him late in games when he’s hitting .160 against LHP.
Thankfully there arent many lefty starters in the NL East, and guys like Glavine and Bacsik shouldnt give him too much trouble. Hamels and … is there anyone else right now?
His career numbers vs LH pitchers are not AS bad. .254 with a .331 OBP. He’s not that much of a liability during a normal game against LH but at the end of the game I might use Easley (he hit .371 against LH last year) and then let Endy take his place on D.
Castro hits LH pitching reasonably well (.276, vs. .287 against righties). I would suspect that when the Mets are playing against lefties like Hamel, Castro will start.
no…we don’t know what Lastings will do, but we do have a decent sample-set to show us what Church has proven capable of doing at this level.
I can’t blame Omar for making this deal. It’s not a sexy deal, but I see the logic…
We’re to blame for overrating Lasting’s stock. People want to believe, if given the chance, he would be a 280/25/90 guy…and he might be.
But…what if he isn’t??????
I would have let Lastings play FT for a full year at 23yo and see what he can do. If he succeeds, he could have gotten us a much better player than Church.
If he failed, then we lost out on Ryan Church, big friggin deal.
But of course he will be, don’t you understand he’s just that good.
I joke here, as I said earlier he has potential. Potential to go either way. The Mets wanted less drama so they got rid of Loduca and Milledge and brought in 2 quality clubhouse guys.
As for Church’s comments, they were not meant to be antisemitic. He is just that ignorant about religion.
I’m not enraged by the trade. I think it’s a wash in the end. Just don’t make a move for the sake of making a move.
Schneider’s gamecalling ability is BS, so overrated. Let’s just hope he can throw out runners.
That’s the problem with this deal. You would have to think Lastings would be at least as good as Church, but with more of an upside. Ryan Church has no upside.
I’m not disagreeing with you here…
upside does not jive with “win now”…proven production does and, yes, I call 275, 20HR, 80RBI, 402b and solid D reasonable production…
I think you need to read the WHOLE story before claiming someone is anti-semetic…STUPID maybe, but def not an anti-semite…stop being so damn sensitive
And we didn’t get much older. We got younger in a position (C) that demands it and a 29 year old RF is not exactly signing up for the AARP
What you call positive “spin” are cold hard numbers. Maybe you should stop listening to the FAN because you’re clearly negative about this whole thing, when it does warrant some semblance of a positive outlook
LoDuca was pretty bad last year. It should be fun to watch a catcher who bats 40points below him.
well, i live in dc and had a good time heckling churchie when he played. but hes not a bad player. and im all for busting his chops for his comments but i doubt hes actually anti semetic. but if you want to hate him , go ahead. i hate lo duca so whatever.
bth way, when you adjust for park affects, schneider was essentially the same batter as lo duca last year (77 OPS+ for schneider, 80 for lo duca). lo duca is 36, scheider will be 31.
im not saying schneider will be ‘good’, but better than lo duca? thats a good chance of that.
and thats not even getting into defense.
Every time Church is mentioned in a post out comes the “jew hater” and “anti-semitic” charges. Getting ridiculous. Posters that make those charges don;t know the whole story or they hate the trade and are killing Church as a result of that. As I posted yesterday, if you want your players to be perfect citizens then you’d never have anyone to root for (except maybe David Wright). And having apologized for a question he posed about his jewish girlfriend (what’s an anti-semite doing having a jewish girlfriend?) has seemingly only made it worse. He apologized for seeming to be intolerant and biased, and as a result is met by a din of intolerance and bias.
i dont see a problem with what churchie said. he is a conservative christian and he thinks jews are going to hell. as a jew myself, i can make fun of him for it, but i dont take real offense.
i mean, when i call us jews ‘the chosen people’ arent i implying the same thing?
we can still make fun of him for being ignorant or stupid, just as we can make fun of wagner for being a redneck or milledge for being a bad rapper, but to make an actual issue about it ridiculous. get over yourself.
You can’t draw the analogy, given what he actually said. The problem with the criticism is that he didn’t say anything inconsistent with a lot of people’s religious beliefs — that his religion is the one path to salvation, etc., etc. A lot of more “mainstream” denominations have moved away from that, but that doesn’t change the nature of his comments. That’s what religious tolerance really means, people — you have to coexist with people who think you’re on the wrong path, so to speak. It’s hard to maintain in a society, but blowign comments out of proportion sure doesn’t help.
Now, back to the diamond. . . .
From the Washington Post when it was said.
“Church as saying that he had turned to Moeller for advice about his former girlfriend, who was Jewish. “I said, like, Jewish people, they don’t believe in Jesus. Does that mean they’re doomed? Jon nodded, like, that’s what it meant. My ex-girlfriend! I was like, man, if they only knew. Other religions don’t know any better. It’s up to us to spread the word,” Church said.”
I can’t see how is that so antisemtic? He sounds like someone strong in his faith that respects the leaders of his religion. If anything fault his pastor or his religion in general but for the most part many Christians believe that the only way to heaven is through Jesus. I am a Christian and I have battled with that issue for years, not just for Jews but for any other religion. I am sure the entire story made him think about it as well.
The “heavy stuff” was just his inartful version of the teachings of his religion. Sorry, but not every religion gives full faith and credit to the others. Making room for those pesky mutually exclusive doctrinal differences is called “religious tolerance.” You each make room for the other. He obviously felt no particular animosity towards anyone Jewish — in fact, his girlfriend was Jewish, and that’s what sparked the comments.
They all need a lesson from DWright in public relations. Leave the sensationalism to the writers and feed em mundane, harmless phrases that have survived the times.
Very true. I really believe in this bunch of guys. They all get along great, and I think they’re ready for a terrific season if everyone plays hard and does his part. They all support each other and take a professional approach, while at the same time going out and having fun, playing hard, and hopefully winning lots of ball games. Blah, blah, blah.