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During his appearance on WFAN today, SI.com’s Jon Heyman said that the Twins know they must trade Johan Santana, and the ‘general sense around baseball’ is that they will.
According to Heyman, the Yankees and Mets are most interested in Santana, but Yankees GM Brian Cashman does not want to make a move.
The Mets, however, notes Heyman, are very serious - so much so that ‘some Mets people’ believe they have made the ‘best offer so 
far,’ i.e., ‘any four of their prospects.’
…first off, this would suggest that i should zip it when i say, ‘Omar, pull the trigger,’ because, from what heyman is saying, it’s not a matter of omar pulling a trigger, it’s about the Twins pulling a trigger…
…that said, i had written something similar to heyman’s comments last week, noting how people connected to the Mets seemed ‘very optimistic,’ but that people connected to santana continued to see boston as a favorite…that disconnect, as a Mets fan, has always been alarming to me…i’m glad that at least heyman is hearing a similar sense of positivity, not that it makes me any more or less confident in santana ending up in queens…
Heyman also discussed his Hall of Fame votes, the Nick Swisher trade, the future of Roger Clemens and the relationship between Scott Boras and Alex Rodriguez.
To listen to Heyman’s full interview, go to WFAN.com.
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They are saying that the trade could happen within the next week…if it does, you are going to need to find some new filler material, Cerrone! Still a few weeks till P’s and C’s
Seriously. Want Johan more than any other player in MLB, but 3-5 posts daily about who said what in regards to when are starting to get ridiculous. There is such a thing as over-reporting something. I think at this point we all have a pretty good feel for whats happened and what its gonna take to bring him here. I dont need to know if Peter Gammons took a dump next to someone that looked like Santana in a public urinal. If there is legitimatly a news break, then ABSOLUTLEY
I’m not complaining about it at all..I’m glad that Matt is able to provide us with ALL the detail regarding Johan, that way it is easier to get an accurate picture of what is going on. Its been a really slow off-season that Santana non-news has dominated the board…I mean nothing else is going on that would be of even remote interest to the Met fan
Ok, but where’s the line between reporting on something, and simply regurgitating every tidbit on the net from every possible source. Of course I want ‘Mets News’, thats why Im on here in January. But I also want the news to have some basis in fact. Matt does a fantastic job with this site. At least on this topic I think he should use a filter for what to and what not to post as “fact”. In a nutshell, a month of nothing but pure speculation is starting to wear on me. One day were getting him, the next his on the Sox and the next the Twins arent gonna trade him at all. Just cant take it anymore. Wake me up when its over…
Give me a break. It’s like you’re going to Starbuck’s every morning, spitting the coffee out on the sidewalk and complaining about how horrible it is, then showing up the next morning for the same cup. Don’t like the product? Don’t buy.
None of this is sold as “fact” — it’s inside scoop, rumor, speculation, etc., and it’s very obviously so.
Additionally, any of the entertaining off-season speculation has to begin and end with Santana because this flirtation is a bottleneck in the off-season plans. Anything we do or don’t do depends on whether or not this guy is available, and at what cost. Hence, a daily update makes sense.
Moving along to the substance, “any four” means one more “A” prospect than I’d like, and even I start to balk. Think about it — they probably take F-Mart, Gomez, Guerra and Mulvey. Youch. I agree with dannyb — I don’t like giving up both F-Mart and Gomez in the same deal, over the same off-season during which we lost Milledge. I figured we’d get to enjoy at least one of those guys build a career at Shea.
If you’ve been reading Matt’s posts carefully, you would know he is not merely regurgitating what’s on the net. He’s been saying some things that no one else has been saying — and indeed he’s been slammed for doing so. He’s been saying these things based on his own sources. Not even the NY beat reporters have been giving the same content as Matt has.
In light of this, I appreciate Matt’s posts on Santana and I hope he keeps it up. Even saying nothing much has changed is good news since most of the mainstream media, like sheep, continue to say the Red Sox and Yankees remain the frontrunners and/or are on the verge of clinching the deal.
I agree that our top 4 prospects make up a pretty hefty price tag, but if Santana’s not worth that, then who is? Personally, I hope the Twins go for it.
Not saying I’m completely opposed, but, again, ouch. We definitely put everything on the line with him. Enormous contract, best prospects gone, etc. Better hope he never gets in a cab.
Heyman is wrong. It will not be any 4 prospects. It will start that way. But….take Fmart, we keep Gomez. Take Pelfrey, we keep Mulvey or Humber, Take Guerra, we keep Pelfrey…that kind of thing.
Plus…this deal does not go down. In the end…Santana is a Twin for half the season and gets traded to us as a midseason pickup for essentially the same deal that is on the table now….
Pelfrey, humber, Gomez and Heilman
trying to picture someone taking a dump at a public urinal…..
Ha….I think the chick I saw on NYE literally sitting on the urinal in the mens room taking a leak has infiltrated my brain….
Highlight of the night(sadly enough)….5 guys saying ‘Oh its totally cool, no problem, go for it’….she gets up and leaves and in unison we all scream “What a wh*re!!!’…
Good times….
That is fantastic….
doesn’t matt have an e-mail address if readers have complaints? it annoying to sift through this stuff. i think most readers would like to read about the mets in the comments sections with a few jokes thrown in.
about the mets in the comments section
about the mets in the comments section
about the mets in the comments section
about the mets in the comments section
about the mets in the comments section
about the mets in the comments section
Better?
Didn’t Matt say recently that pitchers and catchers was 13 weeks ago? Keep up, you.
Hey Cerrone On A Scale Of 1 To Ten Whats The Mets Number Or Whats Everbody Elses Feel Let Me Know
If this trade does go down, and Santana does come to the Mets, I give mad props to Matt and Metsblog. This is the only source that I read that consistently insists the Mets are not only in the mix, but the favorite to land Santana.
I have always thought Santana would be on the Mets, but my thoughts mean nothing in a world of great sports minds such as John Heyman and Mike and the Dog.
This seems to be heating up. When this happens usually it culminates in a trade being done. I just hope its the Mets. We should know in a week or two. Then we can argue if it was a good deal if we get him……….I hope.
Carlos Gomez, Aaron Heilman, Kevin Mulvey, Philip Humber, Brant Rustich & Ruben Gotay for Johan Santana.
Too much - especially if what Heyman said is true (i.e., “any four prospects”) - of course, that is a big “if”.
I suspect if it is true, the Twins would take Gomez, F-Mart, Mulvey and Guerra.
Obscenely too much. Max 4 players and they have no need for Gotay
Too much? How is that even close to too much? That offer isn’t even worth half as much as the F-Mart + Gomez + Guerra + Mulvey deal. The 2nd offer is too much, not the first.
I think F-Mart + Gomez + Guera is very close to the right price.
what about Elvis’ cousin?
that should seal the deal!
I’m basing my selections on Heyman’s comment that the Mets said “take any four prospects” If I’m the Twins, those are the four I’d take.
If it’s F-Mart, Gomez and Guerra, then there has to be a fourth thrown in - maybe a B level prospect. At any rate, I’d rather the Mets hold onto a few decent pitching prospects as they will be needed at some point during the season - and certainly next season.
Why haven’t we heard more in regards to a possible relationship between Johan and Castillo? Is there one? Are they friends? Luis do some persuasion please.
Supposedly, they are friends. At least, Santana made some public comments about how mad he was when the Twins traded Castillo away last year.
I believe the anger had more to do with the Twins situation at the time. The team still felt like they were still in it and wanted the team to trade for more offense. Instead they traded off Castillo off for some minor leaguers. Castillo was batting over .300 and was considered a productive bat in a line up that was having trouble scoring runs.
A buddy of mine ran into Ed Coleman at his job today, first thing he says is “I heard you’re a big Mets fan, just wanted to let you know they just got Santana.”
As my buddy’s eyes widen he says “Nope, just wanted to give you a heart attack.”
did your buddy stab Ed Coleman with a pen after he recovered?
Ed Coleman did it for the lulz.
If he comes to the Mets, do you think he will use Anthony Mason’s barber (the guy that used to shave stuff into the back of his head) to shape/paint his goatee on his face?
If it’s the Mets’ best 4 prospects you have to assume
Carlos Gomez
Fernando Martinez
Kevin Mulvey
and 1 of…
Pelfrey, Guerra, Humber, or someone else they prefer over those three…
For…
Johan Santana for 7 years $150 million…
Way too much.
If the Twins really like Gomez as much or more than Ellsbury as theyhave been claimed to, then give them:
Carlos Gomez
Aaron Heilman
1 or Mulvey or Guerra
2 of Humber, Pelfrey, Rustich, Niese
Ruben Gotay
Heilman and Gotay aren’t considered prospects.
Young players.
Heilman is a 29 year old setup guy who has been very effective.
Gotay is 25 and is a throw in.
I’d rather they take Heilman than Guerra or F-Mart. Heilman has been a very good (sometimes great) releiver, but Omar can always go after Dotel or someone like that to replace him (or see what the current crop can do during ST). The bullpen would take a hit, but having Santana in the rotation would make up for it.
You guys keep sayin “way too much”. The Mets ARE a big market team. Start acting like one!!!! To get quality you have to give quality. In our case quantity because our quality is lower than what is being offered by other teams.
Which would be just horrid. I would almost laugh if the Mets got Johan and he blew his shoulder out on opening day and never pitched again, just so these idiots will realize what a bad trade this will be. I dont care if it is Santana, or Tom Seaver. Cant empty out your farm and give out the biggest contract ever (to a pitcher). If we finish this deal, and an important guy goes down, then the season is literally over, because they have nobody to callup to fill in, and no prospects to trade for somebody. Dont do it Omar.
Your an idiot, all you do is come on this site and complain about the other posts. If you don’t like what you read then just go somewhere else. IF you think that calling up any of the Mets current prospects will fill a void at the major league level and cover the talent at that level your sadly mistaken. Giving up any 4 prospects will not make or break this team even if we have an injury. It will not empty the farm from what I understand we will still have a full roster in New Orleans if we trade any of these guys. The mets the past few seasons have had to go out and make deals to fill voids due to injury. That is and will be a way of life for the mets in 08.
Santana is a low injury risk and high reward. If you would laugh at the mets because a star player gets hurt then your not a mets fan, your an idiot. So relax on bashing all the posts that call for making the trade if you had half a baseball brain you would figure out this would be a good move for the mets. Idiot!
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!
I actually kind of agree with him. Trading Gomez and Martinez is a bit much. Personally, I would offer Gomez, Pelfrey, Mulvey, and another lower level prospect.
Now, with that said, I am not familiar with their prospects in their Dominican camps, so they may have the next Martinez or Gomez coming over to the minors this year. If so, they trade away.
Furthermore, why can’t he disagree?
For Tom Seaver, you’ll do it and like it, punk! Make my day…but he’s a little old now.
But his wine is very good.
Gotta love the old schoolers! Anywho, I think Nrmx has a good point. Martinez is one player too much. I might even be inclined to send Guerra away before I send Martinez. if they want four prospects, fine. It really hurts, but I think Martinez is going to be special.
Any 4 for Santana… I think I’d do that (as long as one of those 4 is Heilman).
Does that mean Mets should clean out the whole system and grab Chubby from the A’s? With Swisher gone, I wouldn’t doubt if Beane is looking to trade his kitchen table for 3 night stands and 2 chairs to be named later…
No thanks, let Fat Joe Blanton go elsewhere. He just isnt very good. I am too lazy to post all his splits because most of you dont care about things like numbers or trends anyway. He stinks on the road, and he has very average stuff. Ugh
Change your username to Mr Negative.
Gomez, Fmart, Heilmann, Guerra, Mulvey ….I gaurantee nothin less than those 5 get it done.
You simply can not trade away all 3 outfield prospects we had this offseason. No chance that gets done. They made Milledge turn into Church to protect them for the eventual trade of one of the two other OF prospects not both. They can choose Gomez or Fmart in the deal but will not get both. We have a need there in 2009 at the latest and we will be using that slot with one of those 2…no doubt in my mind.
As to pitchers…they can likely have 2 of the Mulvey Pelfrey Humber group and I am all for trading Heilman but if they do…they better be damn sure Sanchez is back and ready to pitch at a high level this season because Joe Smith and Feliciano and Matt Wise and Steven Register do not make me feel too comfy at the back end of the pen
I agree w/ above. Props to Matt for the constant updates, despite some ppl’s gripes.
The closer we get to P & C’s in 7 weeks, the more I think we need to just do this thing. In addition to getting a bonafide ace, it will make something other than “the collapse” the story going into spring training, which can only be good for the rest of the team. Hopefully they use those 2 1st round picks (plus the sandwich pick) wisely, and replenish what will be left.
I’d rather keep Humber OR Pelfrey than either Gomez OR FMart, if only because, as proven time and again, pitching’s harder to find than hitting. At least you can say in return for those two we got the best pitcher in the game, rather than our “defensive, .230 hitting catcher and plattooning RF’er” for our “other former Future All Star prospect”, right OMAR???
I’d prefer to keep Gomez or FMart. If both need to be included in this deal, I back away. That being said, I think it could get done without both included.
Absolutely horrible post by john. Youre such a stupid hypocrite its almost comical. You want to gut the farm system for Santana, a move that will undoubtedly mess the future up big time, but then you bash Omar for making a trade where he massively upgrades 2 positions from orur 07 roster for a guy who we dont even have a position for and hasnt done anything at the major league level. It isnt omars fault that you are too stupid to know what to look for in a catcher. By the way, Ryan Church out performed every Met besides David Wright and Beltran while facing RHP. So honestly, shut up, you are embarrasing yourself. Actually you probably arent because most of these idiots agree with you. Its really a shame, a very well run site by Matt, but the readers of the site have to be among the most ignorant of any blog I visit. Actually, forget the among part, this blog easily has the most ignorant followers of any blog I visit. 90 percent of you are so stupid its not even funny.
Grow up. Believe me, your “insights” aren’t impressing anyone. The prospect of trading Carlos Gomez should not get you so upset that you’re spewing fire and insults. Get a grip.
Well, I may not have the venom that he does, but I agree with him. I for one want to watch this team for the next 30 years, not just 08.
I second this. Again, I don’t share the contempt of nrmax88, but there are some good points in his post.
Wow, a guy who comes online and takes himself WAY too serious. All of us “idiots” that read Metsblog EVERYDAY sure do make sure your dumb a$$ has a place to spew your hatred, for if not for all of our hits, there wouldn’t be a site. You go ahead and take Ryan Church over, say, Carlos Delgado and Jose Reyes, as he “outperformed” them against RHP last year.
I’m the idiot? I’ve NEVER even noticed your name on this site, mostly because I don’t take anything anyone says on here to heart where I attack there level of intelligence and knowledge of the game. And you go hard like that?
In any event, I’m actually a bit of an Omar apologist. That being said, I don’t have to LOVE every move that he makes. There are a ton of defensive catchers you can find, and a 270 hitting outfielder who can’t touch lefty’s? Didn’t we have Shawn Green for that?
Milledge was 23 years old retard! You don’t give up a POTENTIAL (I stress potential, because at this point, that’s what it is) for that pair. It was not the most he couldn’ve gotten for him.
You love that deal, but won’t give up Gomez and two pitchers who we’ve NEVER SEEN in the Majors for a guy who’s something like 77-20 the last 4 years.
Right, I’m the idiot? Keep talking tough on the internet, thinking your some “wise” baseball fan, and enjoy living in your mother’s basement dork!
If it can then the trade is a no brainer
did you hear about mike swisher being traded. I’d prefer to see him in right field instead of church. We could have pacaged a bunch of our farm for him and blanton.
Something like Gomez, millidge, humber, molvey, hielman or pelfrey and gotay for blanton and swisher
You cant prefer him that much, you dont even know his name. But thanks for the update. You prefer Swisher to Church? Really? And I prefer Pujols to Delgado, incase anybody was wondering. Blanton is a bum.
Swisher hit 34 HRs two years ago, and was second in the league in on-base-%.
SPLASH!
there is no “too much”, give up anyone but wright/reyes to get johan, period, even if this means getting rid of everyone’s favorite amazing starting pitcher who had one good start in his career Jose Jimenez, I mean Billy Traber, nope uh…Bud Smith?…oh yeah….Aaron Heilman
no more posts on who could be traded….as long as its not reyes it doesnt matter, its a good trade
lastly, Matt don’t worry by midnight this thread will have dozens of people saying “Omar isnt doing enough” when anyone with half a brain knows its “Omar has made 39278649236492 pitches to the Twins and the Twins are waiting to see if they can get better before giving in to the Mets”…hopefully they cant
I agree. The twins probably won’t trade him until the start of the season or the trade deadline because his value will keep going up as teams offer more and more
may i ask why you think johann is going to give up his no trade clause during the middle of the season. he already said no. also please tell me why you think his trade value would increase during the middle of the season, teams will get even less out of him.
Agreed. Not only will they get less out of him, but teams know that the Twins would then HAVE to move him. Instead of getting 3, 4, or even 5 prospects, they only get a first and sandwich draft pick.
I would think when staring at that, Gomez or FMart, Pelfrey, Heilman, Mulvey or Humber doesn’t sound SO bad.
Also glad to see some mainstream types FINALLY point out that Gomez IS more appealing than Milky Cabrera (aka not even worth Endy Chavez).
I honestly dont even know why God chose you as Met fans. You are an embarrasment.
I now see that all I did by responding to this brat was take the bait laid by a troll. Apologies, fellow fans.
Your an A@&HOLE……. putting it nicely.
HEYMAN IS AN IDIOT
totally agree. And a yankee shill to boot
He probably did illeagal drugs along side Roger Clemens, Andy Pettite, Chuck Knoblock. David Justive, and the rest of the gang
Any 4? I agree with the concensus that is likely Gomez, F Mart, Guerra and (probably) Mulvey, although there may be someone else they like more.
Then, you give him a huge contract.
So you clean out your best prospects (although keeping Pelfrey and Humber for more immediate help), and ramp up payroll.
The salary might be the bigger issue. Matt should take screen names, so that everyone who says just do it, isn’t allowed to P and M next off season when they can’t afford to make a run at Teixzara, and sign a retread inste for 1B. Or they have to play roolies (gasp, the horror!) due to payroll issues.
ANy 4 guys is too much. Gomez, and Mulvey as the core 2? FIne, but the other 2 need to be either farther away, or lower tier.
The other contenders seem to be only offering 1 legit top prospect (the rest being 2nd tier or filler), so let the Met’s do the same.
Actually, they probably have, and the Twins just haven’t accpeted the fact that this is market value.
Kind of like a poor, short ugly guy holding out for a supermodel or he won’t get married!
Omar agrees with you. He is unwilling to trade Gomez and F-mart.
So, you’re saying I should give in and go for the back-fat runt with the overbite that I’ve been dating for three years?
Unfortunately, if it’s only 4 players, we may have to give up FMart and Gomez in the same deal. I am still hoping Omar takes a hard line regarding giving up both (I would hang onto FMart) and give up 5 players instead—
Gomez
Pelfrey
Mulvey
Niese
Gotay or lower prospect like Rustich
OMAR, DONT LISTEN TO Arclight33. At least keep F-mart, a 320 hitter during his first season in the minors at the age of 18
Welcome to Johanblog.com. Coming soon,pics of the new Johan Field scheduled to open on Johan Day in 2009 for the New Johan Johans.
/not digging on Matt at all!
//Johan
Omar don’t trade all the prospects pleaseeee. Keep FMart and Guerra. Gomez and Mulvey fine. Niese whatever trade em. But those ARE going to be stars. Just watch. …. But I understand if you do because the Braves and Phillies have clear a No.1 starter. Thats exactly what the Mets need. I know Pedro’s healthy and everything but only if this was 2001 or 02 would I still say he’s a number 1. We haven’t made any major changes this off season and we didnt play well against the Phillies at all last year . If they had to face Santana 4-5 times a year maybe that could change.
you can trade a few of them for santan not blanton
What Cerrone left out was that Mike Francesa (and I know a lot of you dont like him) initiated the Santana discussion by saying that he spoke to Minaya yesterday, and Minaya told him that for the first time he is starting to believe that the Twins might not trade Santana at all. Heyman then went on to disagree with Mike and this is where Cerrone’s post picked up. The thing is, Mike spoke to MINAYA. Not sure if there is a better source than that.
My belly button is a better source than fat francesa.
Seriously though I get your point. I never trust Heyman anyway so why would I start now. I think the reality is that the Twins GM is afraid to pull the trigger right now since he has not been totally blown away with offers. He is not getting the big deal back and the Haren deal confused him because in that deal not only did the A’s get 6 players but 3 are projected as very very good and 5 of the 6 were in the top 15 prospects of that organization.
He wants a deal like that but he can’t get it. There are only maybe 5 teams in the league that can afford the contract that Santana will come with so that limits the pool and reduces the demand lowering the price. Add in that Santana is not a cheap player even this year (where Haren is cheap for the next 3) and the price goes down further.
Santana has to be the one to lead this deal to its conclusion and say something to the Twins like he wants the METS or the Sox and make a deal happen or you will not get me to waive my no trade at the deadline and you will lose me for draft picks. Then a deal gets done.
Absolutely! That’s what Smith or whatever that GM for Minny doesn’t seem to grasp. It’s easier to justify cleaning out your system for a guy who only makes, what, 5 mill tops for the next 3 years and has ace stuff (espec. in the N.L.) than when you have to give a guy 150 mill on top of cleaning house.
Then, you have NO MONEY to fill other holes that arise.
That said, I’m getting more and more like, please, make a move!!!
lets not forget how stupid the twins are going to look if they wait for a better deal and get stuck with nothing. they only control one year of santana. then the mets can bid on him like everyone else.
Gomez, Mulvey, Humber, Niese, and Heilman
I’d do that deal. Who is our 8th inning guy though if heilman is gone and Sanchez has a setback?
we’ll manage
Matt Wise, Joe Smith, Eddie Kunz….
Jorge Sosa, Orlando Hernandez….
JOHAN SANTANA
Pelfrey may get a serious chance at meaningful releif innings, given your trade scenario excludes him.
Dotel and/or Affeldt would be signed in a second. I wouldn’t mind adding Dotel right now, as is but roster space doesn’t seem to allow it.
I’m all for making this trade, short of giving up both Gomez and F-mart and all of the big 3 pitchers or Guerra. Maine served well in getting the quality start when we needed it, but Santana is a tried and true STOPPER.
The Mets need to remind the Twins of the Miguel Cabrera and Dan Haren trades.
Miggy, a position player and one of the best hitters in baseball, did not net the Marlins one single proven player. They did get Maybin and Miller, but the Marlins did also include Willis. The rest of the guys are lower tier prospects.
Haren netted a ton of prospects, but he’s also under control for a few more years. Santana is going to cost the Mets some serious cash.
So Minaya needs to offer the following:
1 of Gomez/Martinez
1 of Pelfrey/Humber/Guerra
2 of Mulvey/Niese/Rustich/Gotay/whoever
I would be happy with: Gomez, Guerra, Mulvey, and Niese
but the tins wouldn’t
Hell yes they would. to them, Gomez, Guerra and Mulvey to the Twins are like Gonzalez, Carter and Anderson to the A’s (Haren deal).
They would take that over Hughs, Cabrera, the very highly regarded yankees shortstop prospect?
yeah right
1) Cabrera is crap. No performance whatsoever but fielding.
2) With that Yankees deal, the Twins are essentially getting Santana for Hughes straight up
3) The deal is Hughes, Cabrera, Marquez and Hilligoss. I don’t recall any “highly regarded” prospect outside of Hughes who really isn’t a prospect.
Him being major leaugue ready at 22 is not a negative for the twins
Hughes? Proven?
Proven what?
trade them fmart, gomez, pelfrey, humber and mulvey…NONE of these player will win us the division NEXT year and that is all we should be playing for.
Santana is to the 2008 mets what hampton was to the 2000 Mets….only BETTER because we will be able to sign him!
All you fools who are now paying 20 percent more to see a team that lost 12 of 17 games to finnish the year and don’t want Santan are losers!
How about them San Francisco Giants, huh?
Good night Mr. Sabean.
Remember who we traded for Hampton? Dotel…and he did what?
WHAT!
WHAT!
That’s WHAT prospects are.
I am sick of playing second fidle to the skankees and any Mets fan should want this deal.
word
WHAT!
WHAT!
Tell me about generation k .
Jay Payton
Minny Manny
C’mon wake up people, your giving up unproven talent for the BEST pitcher in baseball. Your getting the old Pedro Martinez and his new version in Santana, along with Maine and Perez that’s a deep and strong rotation.
Wow . Yes they traded for Hampton and we won the wild card but who did they give up again ? And if you remember about that then you should also remember the past 7 years Mike Hampton has had and the contract he signed after leaving the Mets. But in this case the suppose to give himthe contract and clear out the farm system, no. All i’m saying is F-Mart and Guerra have very high ceilings why trade them now. 2008 Division title would be nice but what about beyond.
Thank you for that blog. When you have a chance to win now you have to take it. You can’t prevent ourself from becoming a world series condender because of Humber or Gomez.
The Yankees and Red Sox don’t hold back there prospects and that is why they have the best team. (In order to get beckett they had to give up Hanley. Gomez, pelfrey, Humber, Heilman combined isn’t as good as Hanly)
Gomez is actually a pretty decent comp to Hanley two years ago. Hanley was at .271 / .335 / .385 as a 21 year old in AA the season before he was traded. Gomez was .286 / .363 / .414 at 21 in AAA in 2007. You could make the argument that despite the lower level of play and significantly lower slash stats, Hanley’s numbers are more significant cause he’s a SS. But he’s not a particularly good one defensively, and many pundits feel he’ll outgrow the position sooner than later. On the other hand, Gomez is already a stellar outfielder at all three positions, and also possesses more raw speed than Hanley as well. Between AAA and the bigs Gomez was 29/7 SB/CS and had only 265 ABs. Hanley was 26/13 all at AA in 456 ABs.
Is Gomez as valuable as Hanley is now? Of course not. But making the argument that he’s more valuable than Hanley was when he was traded is not a stretch by any means.
thats ridiculous. Hanley was regarded as a top 3 prospect in baseball (including pitchers). He was rated over billingsly, over prince fielder. Gomez isn’t even a top 3 outfield prospect in baseball. I think he looks really good, but not good enough to be a deal stopper for santana. Don’t forget we have F-mart for the future in left. We can always sign a corner outfield; there are so many good ones.
I think that was more about Hanley’s 2004 season when he had like an .850 OPS between A+ and AA. I don’t really buy all the buzz on prospects. Gomez is bigger and faster than Ramirez, but he gets crapped on cause he’s in the Mets system which means:
a. He was rushed.
b. Its fashionable to bash Mets prospects.
Nothing you said denies that Gomez had a much better age 21 season than Hanley did at a higher level of play. He spent significant time in the bigs and flashed some signs, while putting up pretty solid numbers in AAA.
Oh, and you know, it is possible to disagree with someone without calling them ridiculous. I’m so tired of how quick everyone is to insult on the internet.
I think a big part of why Hanley was a top three prospect was because he was a SS. But the defense hasn’t developed. I think he’ll be in the outfield by 2010. He’s a great hitter, don’t get me wrong, and he was a highly touted prospect, but the Twins aren’t sitting there fiddling their thumbs and reading Kevin Goldstein and John Sickels. They’re talking to their scouts, and there is PLENTY of comp between Ramirez at 21 and Gomez now, and plenty of things to like better about Gomez.
sorry about the insults, just getting passionate.
Just to reiterate, Gomez has true five tool potential and Hanley does not, not to mention at their relative ages, all five of Gomez’s tools are better, including hitting and plate discipline (I always forget Gomez had a .363 OBP in AAA, that’s really impressive truth be told, as the knock on him was patience. Its a really good sign for the development of his power and what a menace he may one day be on the basepaths).
what were you smoking when you wrote this. Hanley Remirez almost won the MVP award. There are only a handful of major leaguers who are better then him.
Gomez can’t hit nearly as well you idiot. His AAA On-base-% was only 30 points higher then Hanley’s batting average AT THE MJOR LEAGUE LEVEL. (not AAA). His rookie numbers from 06 were better then Gomez’ s AAA #’s
Before you talk smack, why don’t you go check Hanley’s age 21 season. You know, actually do some research. I don’t understand why everyone gets so offended when someone provides a contrary, well thought out opinion. Read the post I made just above this one and you’ll see I was expanding on another thought, which was logical and presented well.
You actually thing Gomez is going to come close to Hanley.
No, I didn’t say that, I think he has as much opportunity to become a great player if not more, but we’re talking about very young, very raw players. Hanley Ramirez panned out about as well as a top prospect can. I’m not saying Gomez will, but if he does, yes, I do think he will come close to if not surpass Ramirez in some ways. He’s bigger and faster and moved through the minors faster too. He never had a breakout campaign like Hanley did in 2004, but Hanley also didn’t sniff a level above of AA until after he turned 22 outside of two September ABs in 2005.
I think the way the Mets rush their prospects is becoming something of a problem. It only adds fuel to the fire about how “over-hyped” these guys are. But they did it, and Gomez fared pretty well anyway.
i think he will be a good player, possibly a very good player (like a juan pierre), but I would rather have the ace.
Just look at Boston. Beckett carried them to a championship. its easier to sign position players
I’m not saying don’t trade Gomez, I’m just clarfiying that I think your underestimating his value.
And he WILL NOT be Juan Pierre, I’ll bet money on that. Jose Reyes is more likely to comp out like Juan Pierre by the time he’s in his 30s. Gomez is nearly half a foot taller than Pierre and already weighs more and is probably faster (seeing as how most people with the Mets including Reyes say Gomez is faster than he is, and Reyes is clearly faster than Pierre). Not to mention he plays better defense and has a better arm. He has to develop his hitting a bit more, but my money’s on him passing Juan Pierre by in a dustcloud.
Juan Pierre is utterly terrible.
Agreed TilMets, and I in no way meant to say Reyes was like Pierre. I just meant he’s more in Pierre’s range of size. Pierre is basically Coco Crisp without a glove.
If Heilman isn’t valued highly, I’d be all right trading:
Carlos Gomez
Deolis Guerra
Kevin Mulvey
Philip Humber
Brant Rustich
Nate Vineyard
3 big guys
2 middle of the road
1 lower level.
Plus, we’d still have Niese and Pelfrey, 3 draft picks and a nice MLB pitching squad:
Johan Santana
Pedro Martinez
John Maine
Oliver Perez
Mike Pelfrey
Orlando Hernandez
Jorge Sosa
Matt Wise
Steve Register
Aaron Heilman
Duaner Sanchez
Joe Smith
Pedro Feliciano
Scott Schoeneweis
Billy Wagner
At least two guys from this list end up in AAA.
Other then Gomez who are the big guys. The mets don’t have highly regarded prospects.
Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.
I don’t know where you get your insight from, but I get it from Minnesota and NY press, Jonathan Mayo, John Sickels, Jim Callis and others at Baseball America and Baseball Prospectus. I have also seen them both with my own eyes.
Those pitcheres aren’t close to being top prospects. John Lester, and phil hughs are twice as good as them. The reason that deal might get done is because Minn likes Gomez so much
Name one way in which Lester is better than either. Mulvey and Lester have virtually the same repertoire. Mulvey keeps the ball down and has a fastball that touches 94. The Twins think very highly of him.
Both Hughes and Lester have had mediocre MLB performances. Lester is 23, and has much less projectability than Guerra. He has been average in 26 starts spanning over 3 years. Hughes had a hammy injury. Not to say by any means that any of these prospects are better than Hughes, but the deal as a whole is better than any other offer.
2 years*
Actually, Guerra and Mulvey are each ranked in the top three on most Mets prospects lists. Guerra in particular is really interesting. He posted a 2.26 ERA in the Sally league when most American players his age were in their junior year of HS. He skipped over his PSL trip entirely before anyone here was even elligible to be drafted. And he also faired pretty well in full season ball in 2007, when most guys in the U.S. of his age were accepting diplomas. He’s basically on the same track Fernando Martinez is on as a pitcher. He’s just talked about less because he didn’t get all the attention when he was signed. But a 6′5″ 200 lbs pitcher whose already established all that by age 18 and also features a plus changeup and touches the mid-low 90s with his fastball is about as good as you can get from a low level pitching prospect.
I’m not quite as enamored with Mulvey, but he’s interesting. He’s basically the anti-Pelfrey. He’s smallish but features four well polished pitches, although none has really translated into a true out pitch yet.
Meddler, it seems like the its going to come down to the Mets keeping Pelfrey, Martinez or Guerra, which one would you rather keep(although its more Bills Smith’s choice to make not the Mets)?
Oh aned I believe Guerra’s fastball was sitting in the high 80’s low 90’s then it shot up to the mid to high 90’s range this spring.
Somewhat. It shot up after he toyed with his delivery in June.
Might I add that Pelfrey carries about as much weight as Humber at this point.
Guerra, Mulvey and Niese are our most sought after minor league pitchers at the moment.
Yes your right, his velocity was down in the high 80s, but it was expected to rise. He’s a monster kid, and part of his projectability was that he figured to develop some more power as he grew into his body.
As for which one of those three I’d keep, for me its Martinez. Maybe its just that I know Omar is completely and insanely in love with him, maybe its because I believe he’ll be as good as they say he will.
And no matter how much upside I think Guerra has, I think its Pelfrey who’d be my second choice. He’s big and projectable now, and I don’t see any reason he can’t develop a second reliable pitch. He never needed to until he reached the big leagues, that much is clear. So he’s basically had a season and a half to come up with something to back up his fastball. He spent his time in the minors chugging away sliders and changeups. The way his slider was looking in September, I still think he’s on a pretty good pace. He took his lumps and got some really bad breaks in 2007, but I still think he has a nice chance of panning out.
The Mets have three first round draft picks coming their way. I think it makes the most sense to gamble on dealing Guerra and trying to replace him by slotting up in the draft for once.
I disagree completely about Pelfrey TilMets. He tore through every level until he reached the bigs with one pitch. He’s got plenty of time to develop a second one, and he could be a force. He commands a fastball in the mid 90s with good movement very well. His delivery is fairy simple, compact, and repeatable. Pelfrey’s value might not be as high as it was a year ago, but like almost every major Mets youngster, I think he was rushed. By September his slider was looking good and he seemed to be building confidence in it. If he’d spent this year in AAA that might have happened a month or two earlier.
I still feel there’s plenty to like about Pelfrey. In some ways more than Mulvey. Mulvey may have four pitches, but he doesn’t have an out pitch yet. His size will always be something of a concern too, but it may also allow him to develop faster.
A common problem we see in guys like Gomez and Pelfrey is that with these bigger, athletic players, sometimes it just takes time for them to grow into their bodies. I’m 23 and 6′4″ 215 so I have something of a sense of this. Sometimes when I watched Gomez it just seemed like he didn’t understand how to manage his size and ability. He’d run to a spot in the outfield, and not realize how difficult it was to slow down his momentum.
What speed can you hit on the radar gun. With your size and age maybe we could throw you in with the others to get Santana………..
Great exchange by you guys above. My feelings on the prospects are really who cares what other teams feel they are worth. If the stock is down, keep the player if WE BELIEVE IN HIM. If the Mets believe that Pelfrey and Guerra and Fmart and Gomez are all going to be special….then don’t trade those in the group that are not fetching enough value in return.
Guerra is too far away to get great value placed on him if the thought is he could be a power ace someday. Let him develop the next 2 years and begin to prove it….If he develops the way they think he will, then his trade value will be through the roof and he should command top ace level talent coming back in a trade with a few other less thought of pitchers.
Pelfrey is the best looking pitcher in our group right now. Better than Mulvey and Hmber. But he has not figured it out yet. Everything mentioned above suggests he could be Verlander. Bug guy, power sinking fastball, repeatable mechanics, great pitchers body etc. He needs time to find the pitch he is going to use to offset his fastball and he needs time to then refine it. Trading him now would be akin to trading John Maine in the deal the O’s gave us. They simply traded him when his value was just too low.
Gomez and Fmart are not impaired in anyway on their value. But postional prospects just dont fetch ace pitchers in return. And great positional prospects dont have the same value as great pitching prospects
I love Mike Pelfrey. Great stuff, great potential.
But he’s been compared to Humber, and teams see him as worse than Mulvey.
He’s much more valuable to keep.
However, this is Gomez’s selling time. I don’t have the faith that others do.
Heilman may be like Pelfrey. Although he has huge value to the A’s, how do you know that a team with Minnesota’s bullpen will appreciate the 29-year-old hurler.
Vote Johan Santana in 2008!
“At least two guys from this list end up in AAA.”
And half of us end up in AA.
we don’t have the top offer…according to old hank steinbrenner
After what he described as a “slow holiday season” for baseball business, Hank Steinbrenner is returning to his office Thursday to begin working on “a final decision” regarding a trade for Johan Santana. And he believes the Yankees have made the top offer for the Minnesota ace.
“I think the Twins realize our offer is the best one,” Steinbrenner said Wednesday in a telephone interview. “I feel confident they’re not going to trade him before checking with us one last time and I think they think we’ve already made the best offer.”
idiot stop talking already
Remember, Hal is the same guy that told them they had a “deadline”. too..
I dont believe/ give any credence to ANY of his statements to the press.
I read an estimation that if Ollie has a 2007-like season in 08, he could command a contract at 16 mil a season. If that’s true, I guess we can kiss him goodbye and rightfully so. What do we want from him in 08? A great season, a world championship and a goodbye or a mediocre season and maybe a “hometown discount”? Sounds like we need to make plans for a Ollie-less rotation after 08. The unanswerable question as of yet is “who will pick up the slack?”
It’s risky but that’s why you offer him a Silva type contract right now. 4 years 50 million. If he is a bust then so be it but I think for a young lefty with potentially dominant stuff you have to do it right away.
not a bad scenario: monster year, leaves, draft-picks come our way
Omar, give the Twins whoever they want short of Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Perez, and Maine. Please. I beg you. There is absolutely no juice right now fo the upcoming season.
johan
pedro
maine
perez
lieber/young guy left
the mets will get him. Im now more confident then ever.
We will give the extra players and be willing to pay that 6 year contract. Both the Yankees and Red Sox will not be willing to match the # of players that we will. We will simply overpay. Done. I’m sure of it now. This is/was Omar’s goal all along. To be in this exact position. A standoff with the Yankees and Red Sox.
it will take 4-5 players from the Mets to get this done and I personally do not feel Heilmann will be one of the players involved-. Omar is gambling our future (and he knows it) but I think he knows that this team needs to deliver a championship now. Church and Schneider only make sense if you are trying to build a team like the Red Sox did. And the big piece is Santana. Omar knows it and knows that an ACE makes guys like Maine and company much, much better.
Aces like Santana come around only once and awhile and if you are going to get what’s left out of Pedro, El Duque and also take advantage of having Wagner then you need to get a guy like Santana.
This makes you the prohibitive favorite overnight; this is the difference maker.
and remember, Santana still needs to get a deal done with the Mets in order for this all to even happen. In the end I think Omar has that covered too — I think he’ll insist on an insureable deal otherwise he wont do it. He will structure something to protect the mets on the chance of injury.
Have faith. if we get santana we dont need anything else. we have good defense up the middle and enough offense to square up against the rest of the division.
Still can’t believ there are mets fans who don’t get it!
We are not going to or NEED to develop players in the next 4-5 years. We need pitching NOW. We can sign Free agent (s)outfielders to play the outfield when Alou is gone and Church is a distant memory. Gomez, Fmart…what HAVE they done? NOTHING. What HAS Pelfrey DONE? Nothing! Humber? NOTHING? Gomez? Nothing..FMART..Nothing! Mulvey? Nothing!.
Santana is 28 and has won 2 CY Young awards and is BETTER than all 5 of those players combined for WHAT WE NEED TO WIN NOW.
Next year the Mets could have the best rotation in the East with Santana, maine, Perez, Pedro (as a 4th starter, Pedro!) and a fifth starter. What is wrong with you people!
Word is NOW. Win NOW . Trade the PROSPECTS. This IS year 2000 all over again and with Santana (AS MIKE HAMPTON) we will be in Game one of the World Series in 2008…THE DIFFERENCE IS SANTANA WILL WIN GAME 1 AND GAME 5!
Again ….we lost the division by 1 game. If Santana is pitching in at least 3 of those final 17 games, don’t you guys think the division is ours? I’d sure would rather have him start games 1,3 and 7 of the W.S. than keep any of these “prospects”
For that matter, however, if Livan was pitching for our team last year as the number 5 we would have won the division. Can’t use that argument, except for the fact that if Santana had pitched for us the entire season we would have won about 8-10 more games.
I want Johan right this second.
I am greedy.
and tired.
The Twins have released a press statement about Jason Pridie - he’s a CF and the 3rd player that MN got in the Garza/Young trade. The blurb raves him up and quotes Smith on how excited they are to have him. His minor league stats are a bit all over the place, but similar to Ellsbury. Where Ellsbury was a bit more consistent in average, Pridie has pop - which is what the Twins want. They both have speed.
I think the Twins have decided to resign Santana. I also think they may be close and the Pridie blurb is them trying to smooth over any potential flack about not getting a CF via the trade that everyone was expecting.
Oh, I also agree with some of the other posters that have said that things are heating up and we’ll be hearing something soon. It just isn’t looking like the news may be the big trade that everybody is expecting.
you know what Minaya always talks about getting pitching but look what he did last year by trading away bannister for crappy burgos and heath bell and lindstrom for crappy ben johnson whos hurt by the way and burgos is hurt as well…..everytime i see his speech on tv or hear it on radio hes like ” pitching,pitching,pitching its all about pitching” minaya full of bull$hit if u ask me….
I sort of hope they do just announce he is staying, so we can all move on from the nonsense. Omar can evaluate his other options and make whatever smaller move makes sense to add a respectable SP arm to the mix. Then, let them play!
Any updates on Lariano? That might have the most to do with them deciding to keep Santana. If he is expected to be all the way back, they might just make a run at it.
Everything I’ve heard has been positive+. He was given the green light to begin preparing for spring like he normally does.
He hasn’t been just doing a re-hab, but has also been working on mechanics, a new pitch and overall strengthening. He’s added about 15 pounds of muscle to that skinny frame of his. The Twins are trying to build a bigger, stronger and more versatile Liriano for 2008.
Obviously the jury is still out on this and probably will be out for a while, but I haven’t heard a bad report yet.
[...] Buzz: Mets May have Best Offer | MetsBlog.com [...]
Prozac….
Prozac and alcohol. Negative effect of prozac. Medical guide to safely discontinue prozac. Prozac increases patience….
Jackson mississippi and dog grooming and love….
I love my dog t shirts….
Marquez has little weight in comparison to Rustich or Humber.
HANK said he made the best offer…
not that I give a lot of creedance to this thread either. We’ll know who made the best offer when a trade is finally made.