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In a chat yesterday for Baseball America, site-editor Jim Callis wrote that the Devil Rays, Red Sox, Reds, Rangers and Yankees have the best group of minor-league prospects in MLB.
The Red Sox were ranked eighth by Baseball America last off-season, up 13 from 2005, while the Yankees were ranked 24, the same as in 2005.
…so, basically, it’s possible to spin a system around in just a few years…begging the question: where are the Mets…
According to Baseball America, the Mets had the 10th Best Farm System in MLB after the 2004 season - after having traded Scott Kazmir and Matt Peterson a few months earlier.
Omar Minaya joined the Mets in the Fall of 2004, and further traded Mike Jacobs, Yusmeiro Petit, Grant Psomas and Gaby Hernandez, among others, during his first 12 months in an effort to quickly acquire proven, major-league talent.
…as he has said in the past, minaya’s argument is that in order to make a quick 180–degree transition, from a 71–91 team in 2004 to getting one game away from the World Series in 2006, he had no choice but to a) sign major free agents, like Carlos Beltran, Billy Wagner and Pedro Martinez, which also cost him top draft picks, while b) also trading his best young talent for proven veterans like Carlos Delgado and Paul Lo Duca…in other words, he had to cripple his farm system to quickly improve the major-league team…fact is, he did both…yes, the team won quickly, but he did in fact weaken their minor league talent pool…
…and so, here we are again…the Mets are good - far, far better than 2004’s team - with a pretty good crop of young talent in Fernando Martinez, Kevin Mulvey and others, and three top picks in the coming draft…yet, minaya is being tempted to decimate his farm system, again, to acquire one pitcher: Johan Santana…
…as i have said, at this point, given the pressure to win and the desire to field a popular team for the debut of Citi Field, i would give up this club’s best young pitchers to get santana, who will almost certainly always be better than Mike Pelfrey, Philip Humber and Kevin Mulvey…
…to do this, though, if he’s going to trade several prospects for one pitcher, minaya has got to abandon his team’s painful loyalty to MLB’s slotting system…
For more on the ‘slotting system,’ check out Ken Davidoff’s recent column for Newsday, during which Minaya insinuates a need to sway from his previous draft style.
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I believe it has only been a couple of years that the Yanks and a couple other teams have abandoned the slotting system. This hasn’t been going on very long, right?
Anyway, if Omar starts doing it now it would be fine with me that he played by MLB’s rules at first, then saw everyone else doing it too, and decided to join in. After all, there are no real rules against it yet, and Omar just wants to help his farm system get through an injury to his elbow.
I strongly disagree with you. What have any of those players Omar traded done so far? Only Jacobs has Major League games under his belt. And the numbers he’s putting up, isn’t that impressive. You never know what your gonna get when you trade minor leaguers! Do you remember these studs…Wilson, Pulshipher, Leary, Escobar and Ochoa, they were studs that ended up being duds! Trade them all for Santana, he’s aproven stud, not a dud!
He didn’t cripple his farm system. We still had and have wright and reyes. Now we have gomez and F-mart too
But, this isn’t 2004 again.
The Mets have enough talent that they are a good, winning team that has the potential to get into the playoffs.
LOL! mets need a big market MLB team!!!!!
$120 Mil is totally small market.
ummm….for the most part they have that..but you do realize that MLB players are minor leaguers prior?
tell that to Dave Winnfield
and Ed Kranepool
and Michael Jordan
wait, scratch that.
“the Mets are good – far, far better than 2004’s team ”
but far far worse than the 2006 team.
False
worse..yes…”far far” no
agreed!!!! Cerrone has no credibility whatsover!! “far far better” ????. An Omar apologist ; and more SNY bias!!!
Will he ever hammer this guy ever so slightly??
The team you could make with the talent in the organization from 2004 is just as good as the team was in 2007.
I don’t think signing first round picks is anything close to a complete fix. This isn’t the NBA. Building a farm system takes investment in scouting, player development, etc., and a commitment to getting the best coaches, best trainers, best system infrastructure, etc., rather than hiring old friends and patching holes when they spring open. I like what Omar did with the emphasis on Latin scouting, the complex in the Dominican, etc. That needs to be matched with similar investment in player development among the minor league affiliates. Having a farm team close by, in Brooklyn, probably helps.
That’s how we got FMart…a 16 year old signing out of the Dominican. Let’s hope he pans out.
I want Santana as much as the next guy, and have no idea how much teams spend running their farm systems. That said, I can’t imagine putting half the prospective Santana money into the system — an extra $12.5M per year for facilities, trainers, coaches, and scouts — wouldn’t reap huge dividends. Obviously, you can’t just throw money at a problem, and it’s approach as much as funding, (if not much, much, moreso,) but it’s food for thought.
We also got Fernando Pena that way as well. He’s 18 and supposedly a great catcher (although he hasn’t shown it yet).
You are right though – we need to focus on both drafts. Last year we spent at least 60% of our picks on mid-relievers. Two years back we failed to sign Pedro Beato, who then signed with the Orioles, and is one of their up and coming prospects. We also have some young low A talent that seems promising – Dylan Owen hopefully wasn’t a fluke. He was phenominal last year in A ball.
Well, look who they’ve had managing just at Brooklyn. Mookie Wilson, Howard Johnson, Tim Teufel, ex 86′ers. Gary Carter at St. Lucie. I’m sure I missed others but are these guys good “coachs”? They were good players but do they know how to teach these kids? They need guys in these positions that really know how to teach the game, not just put minor league fans into the seats.
That’s a good point. The Cyclones shouldn’t be an amusement (pun?) — it’s make-or-break instruction for these kids.
i think they should also be more agressive in draftee signing bonuses. 5mil seems like a lot for an unproven high school kid but think of how much money gets wasted on mutli year contracts? we paid pedro how much last year?
not saying we shouldnt have gotten pedro, but if the tigers arent afraid to spend money to sign quality picks, we sure as hell shouldnt.
+5
remember roger clemens?
“Omar Minaya joined the Mets in the Fall of 2004, and further traded Mike Jacobs, Yusmeiro Petit, Grant Psomas and Gaby Hernandez…”
All considered great prospects; only Jacobs has come through as an everyday player.
True. And even his is medicore at best…
My thoughts exactly.
Those two pitchers are both younger than Pelfrey and Humber. I guess the ship has sailed on those guys too.
Petit has a starting job in Arizona – Gaby’s still in the minors. We got excellent value for both of those prospects. They were both at least 2 years away and nothing was definite.
Psomas was a must trade guy – he’s a 3B and pales in comparison to D-Wright.
Actually you bring up the very point I was going to make. If we were 10th best in 04 with that lot of prospects (Kazmir being the only true legit player we gave up) then with the group with have in the minors now (excluding F-Mart) I would have no problem sending over whoever the twins want for F-Mart. It would not be raiding our farm. You have to have value to raid and we just don’t have it. FMart is the only commodity that we have of decent value.
Minaya had no choice but to trade his best young talent? Are you kidding me???
He had to trade for Lo Puka and couldn’t sign Ramon Hernandez?
They also could have signed Delgado a year earlier instead of waiting until January to go after him with 1/10th the effort they went after Beltran, then essentially giving him the same offer he got from the Marlins, then ending up overpaying in a trade for him the next season.
This slotting system “excuse” is also complete garbage. Yea, teams passed on Pelfrey because of signability issues and the Mets scooped him up – the real problem is, Pelfrey stinks, just like the rest of Minaya’s drafts.
These are all just excuses that mask how bad Omar Minaya is. In three years, with Wright and Reyes making no money and producing at star level, and with a good farm in tow when he took over, in an absolutely terrible National League, he’s got the Mets to one playoff appearance while leaving the farm system far worse than when he started.
And there’s no excuse for that. He’s done a bad job, plain and simple.
Who on that list do you even miss? Seriously…
Petit was cut and is on his 2nd team since the trade
Jacobs has been average at best
Hernandez is still in the minors.. projects as a back end starter…
Grant Grant Psomas who??
heysus guys.. we won all of those trades.
And if you remember correclty, Delgado screwed us at the last second to sign with Florida. We pushed hard to sign him.
I agree that the “slotting” excuse is not entirely valid. It’s a little bit of a smokescreen. Someone here did a comparison of what the Mets paid their early round picks over the last few years under Omar vs. the Yankees, and the Mets actually paid more in some instances.
They just need to make better draft picks, stop concentrating on relievers, and pay more attention to development and to the farm clubs. Omar or Bernazard never made one single trip to Norfolk in all of 2006, and apparently they were pissed about that. They also weren’t too happy with the bunch of old washed up vets like Ledee and Defilice that populated that club. The Mets paid for that negligence when Norfolk divorced them. The end result is that their AAA club is now in a hitter’s league which depresses the value of their pitching prospects. It’s also a gazillion miles away from Shea, making moves harder to make. Not too smart.
Frankly, I think Omar neglected the farm system and undervalued it. And now we’re seeing the results of that neglect with the poor estimation many other clubs have of our prospects.
I have to say Carver, those are phenomenal points. I actually found myself watching a Zephyrs game this year on a Mets off-day.
I couldn’t believe what I was witnessing in the top of that lineup. What a joke. The top 3 hitters were all ex-washed up major leaguers. That is a joke. I understand you want to have vets available, but they shouldn’t be playing everyday in AAA ball. The kids should be playing.
Dude, Hernandez wanted to be in Baltimore and Angelos threw money at him even with Javy Lopez already in tow.
Marlins offered $1 mil more per year AND no state income tax. Had Omar offered that extra $4 mil, he still wouldn’t have gotten Delgado then.
I wish you were associated with the media; but those gutless creeps are afraid to say anything critical about Senor Minaya. I wonder why?
Let’s keep upgrading the farm system! I’m glad to hear Omar will make this a priority and we have extra picks in 1st round this year. It’s more important then ever because teams like the Twins are holding out for prospects with great potential (as they should).
Can we trade our first round picks to Minnesota as part of a package for Santana? I’d give them Gomez, Heilman, Mulvey, and 2 of our first round picks. We keep FMart and Guerra and get Santana.
can’t trade draft picks in MLB
No, but you could draft and trade as “players to be named later”
tata toothy
Draft picks have to stay on the team for 1 yr before they can be traded
players to be named have to be named within a specified time period. although your NBA draft style trade could be intriguing, I’d only allow for one of those picks to be moved… need to keep adding depth.
“Omar Minaya joined the Mets in the Fall of 2004, and further traded Mike Jacobs, Yusmeiro Petit, Grant Psomas and Gaby Hernandez…”
I could care less about those deals and in fact it looks like Omar did right by them. Its what he did last year that counted with Bannister, owens, etc that has really hurt the team.
Yusmeiro Petit would have been the best of the 5th starters last year, he did a pretty solid job in AZ filling in for Randy Johnson.
Hernandez is still young and a good prospect.
And I’d rather have Jacobs at 1B then Delgado going forward wouldn’t you?
not really, no.
Delgado had a off year. But he is still a good bat. Better then Jacobs.
Even last year in a terrible year for Delgado he had 87 rbi.
Jacobs had 54 and a .317 obp to Delgado’s .333.
I still would rather have Delgado
Petit was let go by the Marlins for Nothing.. that’s how good he was ..
God no on Jacobs.. maybe the best Omar deal ever.. we traded him away cause of a few incredible weeks he had..
Gabby Hernandez profiles a 3-5 starter.. we have about 10 of those…
I don’t know why people still harp on that trade when Delgado’s good year got us a division title for the first time in 18 years. I know we lost Jacobs, but he still can’t hit lefties, and the pitchers haven’t amounted to much…
I thought Petit was in the BH Kim deal between Florida and Arizona…
ie, gave him away
Exactly. BH Kim was on the United shuttle between Miami and Phoenix all year it seemed.
Jacobs was nice for 2 months. But let’s get serious. Delgado is a masher when he’s on.
A Masher When He’s On???? He Batted .139 with 2 outs and RISP. A complete DISGRACE!!!!!! And I don’t think Omar’s boy will be better this year. Maybe he’ll get better luck saluting the flag!!
Plus 100 if I may.. this is exactly correct.
Sorry that plus 100 was meant for AZ Mets fan.. hard to tell on this thing.
-3.14 for anyone trying to imitate pointsguy
care to elaborate on why you chose to deduct pi?
He’s on a diet (pie/pi, get it?)
Someone help me out here. I don’t have the time to research for myself the answer to the following question:
How does paying above the “slot” for a draft pick have anything to do with that particular draft pick being available when you draft?
Does it have to do with a particular player saying he won’t sign under any circumstances unless it’s for a specified amount above all slots?
The logic is that “signability” guys fall lower in the draft then their talent would dictate.
Say Kid 1 is a top 20 talent, but demands to be paid like a top 5. So, he slides, and teams start passing on him.
So, maybe it’s the end of the 3rd round, and the kid is still there, and by far the best talent available. A rich team could snap him up, and pay him as if he was drafted in the 1st round. Unless they follow the slot” system, which would only have them pay him like a 3rd round pick (maybe $250,000 instead of $2,500,000)
Okay, so it’s about a player/agent making it difficult on the team looking to draft them. Thanks, man.
So, not adhereing to the slotting system amounts to the rich getting richer because big market teams can afford to pay these guys above slot.
I’m not sure how I feel about that. But, I do like our Mets to win.
We have to do it. that is how the Yanks and BSox built their systems back up so quick. Like it or not we have to start acting like a big market team.
You have to ask yourself this. What penalty did the Yanks or Sox get for not following the Slot system??? (nothing) What did we get for follwing the Slot System besides players we didn’t sign….What did MLB give us for being the good guys fo the big market teams?????(nothing)
There is no incentive to follow the system and it only hurts a team like the mets to follow it then we just cannot continue to follow the slot system we have to hope that top tier talent falls into our lap in the bottom of the first round & later and pay them like they are a top 5 pick. If we do that we can build our farm up rather quickly.
there is no rationale argument against what you say. if you have money in this league, you have to spend it to win. if you don’t have money, you just have to get incredibly lucky to win.
i more or less agree with you charlie – except that the tigers and idians have been able to compete and build legit contenders by having a decent payroll and investing heavily in their draft picks. over slotting is still cheaper than competing for free agents. and of course, a lot of luck is still needed for those big time draftees to develop.
THT 2008 annual has a really good piece on it.
So, did we get Johan yet?
yes we did!!!
Then i woke up….sorry
It will cost 3 of our top 5 prospects: Carlos Gomez, Deolis Guerra, Kevin Mulvey
2 Lower Top 10: Philip Humber, Brant Rustich
1 Misc: Ruben Gotay
Carlos Gomez (who the Tiwns compared to Delmon Young)
Deolis Guerra (Brilliant young, big, hard throwing hurler)
Kevin Mulvey (Solid middle of the rotation starter, MLB ready)
Philip Humber (Tested in the minors and as an MLB reliever)
Brant Rustich (Hard thrower, minor league success)
Ruben Gotay (Promising performace last year, middle infielder)
all those guys plus what we paid them in yearly salary is about what were going to pay carlos delgado to be league average at 1B next year.
no real point to that by the way, except that i like pouring money into draft picks.
He traded Colon with Brandon Philips and Cliff Lee as the center pieces for that deal.. Seizmore was more or less the “throw in”.. he was an atheltic teengaer who was more toolsy then baseabll talented…
Phillips BOMBED with the Indians, and Lee fell falt on his face last year…
That trade is a terrible example that always gets misinterperted.
OK Omar’s tenure with the Expos was a 10000000% DIFFERENT SITUATION. THE FRANCHISE WAS PLAYING NOT FOR A TITLE, BUT THEIR FUTURE!!!! What good is a farm system when there is a big chance that your team WILL NOT EXIST IN A YEAR?!?!?!
The team was leading the wild card, and so he poured his resources into making the team successful, so they wouldn’t be contracted! I understand the point you are trying to make, but what Omar had to deal with in Montreal is an extremely unique situation, and cannot be compared to what any other GM has had to endure, except for Terry Ryan, whose team aleady had a solid core and didn’t need the extra pieces to win the division.
You go ahead and tell me you didn’t think the Bannister-Burgos deal was an intriguing one when it was made.
Now… of course Bannister is the guy I’d rather have. But we needed to upgrade the bullpen and Omar took a shot on a guy with some upside that hasn’t panned out, yet (hopeful optimism).
Colon was a top 5 pitcher in the league at that point. He gave up 2 top prospect for him and Sizemore, which extrawhitemeat said, was a throw in. It’s pretty similar to what the Twins are asking for Santana.
If anyone remembers, we tried to trade Reyes in the Hampton deal as a thrown in. Neither team at that point thought he would be what he is today.
Not to mention, the guy that brings up the Sizemore trade is also the guy that says Oliver Perez and John Maine were throw-ins in the Jorge Julio and Roberto Hernandez deals.
Can’t have it both ways. I’m sure Omar knew who he was giving up. Sometimes a trade like that can motivate a young player. It happens. Nobody has a crystal ball. Make a decision and live with it.
If it stinks so bad how did it take this long to realize for all ownership, media and fans alike?
b/c we wait until it all plays out and then second guess with hindsight and pretend we’re all geniuses!!!
hahahahaha
The media was afraid to pick on Omar for obvious reasons. A simple question to him like why has he NEVER IN 4 YEARS ACQUIRED A BLACK OR WHITE AMERICAN STAR HITTER !!! WHY OMAR!!! Would that have been too tough to ask.
seems as though you like pouring money into delgado as well. the guy is a monster of a hitter. he had one bad year. let’s at least wait til july to judge.
Not to mention, with a team like the Expos, if you have a chance to go for it one year, you do it.
You don’t think the Royals would trade their three top prospects for Johan Santana at the deadline if they found themselves tied for the division lead on July 30th?
They would make that deal in a second.
I don’t think it was so they wouldn’t be contracted. I think it had more to do with the fact that they never won a thing. The one year that they could have made a legit run, there was a strike. That team was nasty.
They finally saw an opportunity to win and they went for it. Can’t fault being aggressive, even if it costs you in the end. At least he went for it. You think the Montreal fans cared that they gave up Sizemore, Phillips, and Cliff Lee (who I don’t see the big deal about anyway)? Doubt it.
I think Burgos is going to be groomed to be our closer when he gets back from TJS. Just a hunch.
The guy has nasty stuff. Just has to harness it. Hopefully he won’t be Benitez Reincarnate.