|
According to Joe Christensen of the Minnesota Star Tribune, the Twins have told the Mets they can have 
Johan Santana if they add OF Fernando Martinez to their current offer of OF Carlos Gomez and RHPs Deolis Guerra, Kevin Mulvey and Phil Humber.
Christensen writes that while the Yankees and Red Sox both remain in the sweepstakes, “Ultimately, the Mets might be the best fit.”
Christensen speculates that Santana is looking for a five- or six-year contract worth at least $20 million per season.
…this is in line with what cerrone has written all along…literally, the twins want the Mets to give up the farm…
…personally, i might do it…the Mets, regrettably, did not go all out for Pedro Martinez after the 1997 season when the Expos put him on the block – and ten years later, it feels like that scenario could be replaying itself...
 |
 |
 |
RSS 2.0 Both comments and pings are currently closed.
So we could trade for Santana and still keep Pelfrey (despite the criticism he gets, he has very good stuff)? Get it done and I’ll book the flights myself.
i’m embarrassed that we still talking about this.
with this guy, this team can win it all. NOW.
are the prospects we keep putting us in a world series game next year?
trade them all! we are 1 of the 4 teams that can pay for them if they turn out to be all-stars and hall of famers, right? why not let them develop somewhere else??? ESPECIALLY the AL, where they can’t really hurt us.
the end. trade them all. get him and win the belt, brother.
BRING ME THE HEAD OF JOHAN SANTANA!!
Don’t you mean the left arm of Johan Santana? As well as the rest of him?
I want his arm, not his head! lol
THAT IS A NO BRAINER.
WE HAVE 3 FIRST ROUND PICKS.
AND THERES NO WAY ANY OF THESE GUYS WILL TURN INTO THE BEST PLAYER IN BASEBALL.
THEY MIGHT BE GOOD. BUT NOT THE BEST.
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME METS HAD THE BEST PLAYER AT A POSITION?
MIKE PIAZZA WHO TURN THE TEAM AROUND.
BESIDES HIM IT WAS TOM FREAKEN SEAVER.
i know there was other players…
i am just saying its been soo darn long…..
if the mets get johan…
its like basically shorten a series…..in the playoffs…
the way baseball are being run..
a starting pitching has a chance to pitch 3 times in a 7 game series…
give the man his money….
before Mike Piazza, it was Dwight Gooden in 1985
Who is the best Center Fielder in baseball??
One could argue we have him…..
Anyway, back to the original point….F-Mart might be too much icing on the cake to give the Twins…
If I include F-Mart in the proposed deal according to the article, either Gomez or Guerra has GOT TO come out of the deal….
So…F-Mart, Guerra, Mulvey, Humber OR F-Mart, Gomez, Mulvey, Humber….
Giving them 5 guys and basically 3 of your top 4 in Gomez, F-Mart, Guerra, (Pelfrey being the 4th), is just way too much….
4 of the 6 Twins…mix and match…take your pick….but you aren’t getting 5….
I agree…. but only to an extent. i think the Twins are asking a bit to much, so they should throw in F-Mart in exchange for taking one of the other prospects out.
OR
I’d give em everyone they asked for if, in exchange, we get Johan AND Joe Nathan
HELL, I’D EVEN GIVE EM HEILMAN FOR THOSE TWO!
lets not go nuts but i definitely agree that fmart in = someone else out. ive said this before, if the twins keep him and he signs somewhere (likely nyy, bos, nym) their compensation will be comparable if not worse than what we got for glavine. 4 players is plenty to get this deal done. please omar getting johan and keeping pelfrey in my mind is an absolute total victory for this team.
Carlos Beltran CF
good point…..do the trade OMAR. and Freddie, please just pay the man his money and then ENJOY THE RIDE
If this is what it will take to get the deal done, then do it. The price does appear high, but we are talking about the pitcher in the game right now!!!!
Forget getting an ace through free agency. Teams are now locking them up before they hit the market. In addition, look at the number of prospects that Arizona had to send to Oakland for Haren. Haren is good, but he is no Santana. Finally, in this scenario, we still get to keep Pelphrey. I think he has the biggest upside of all of the Met pitching prospects anyhow.
OMAR – DO THE DEAL!!!!!!
Freakin’ Dan Haren got mutiple prospects for his deal. We are only giving up PROSPECTS. DO IT
Having to give up Martinez would hurt, but being able to keep Pelfrey while acquiring Santana would be a coup
There’s no way you could turn this down if you’re Omar Minaya right now which leads me to believe that this is nothing but speculation
No and no! One pitcher no matter how good isn’t worth the whole farm system.
Unless the Mets have over valued F-Mart then this isn’t my idea of a trade.
This team is built to win NOW! So we can not possibly miss out on another opportunity to acquire a key player. As sad as I am to lose the kids, I can’t help it but to think this is possibly our last chance to get anything close of a remarkable pitcher that is Johan Santana. Pedro, Santana, Maine, Perez and Pelfrey, Are you not salivating like I am? (I’m heterosexual by the way) I’m sorry, but lets get Johan and get this ring already.
If nothing else, they should lead the league in Ks!
That is a nice looking rotation. Just plug Duque in the 5 hole to start, send Pelfrey to AAA to master all his pitches, and hope for health.
Pelfrey would come up for the first injury.
There better not, however, be a second injury, since that would lead to Lima/Lawrence time, since every other ML plausible SP was just traded away.
No no, you can’t trade all three in one deal. Our three best prospects, F-Mart and Guerra are gonne be God’s soon. NOO
bluNoway2go : Mortgage the future for now? We have plenty of young players like Wright & Reyes who deserve a future. You sound like the perfect candidate to be a Yankee fan. Look how that has worked out these past number of years for them. One player or even pitcher is not enough to put the Mets over the top but half their farm could.
Pass on Santana. PLEASE!
Please spare me your Yankee heresy by questioning my team loyalty, obviously you must be too stupid to realize that our system has yet to produce a top notch starter (other than Kazmir) or an all-star position player (Lastings Miledge). We have jeopardize numerous times to acquire a started for example Zito in 2006 and we all know how that ended. Obviously I’m no GM, but I’m certainly entitled to my opinion so therefore no need for name calling or assumptions. Your the idiot that wants to keep an unproven farm and I want to see the best pitcher in baseball pitching for the Mets in 2008.
Ok, Kazmir :: all star starter, yes!
Milledge :: all star position player… uh WHAAAAAT???
have you guys ever negotiated for anything? The more we go the more it’s obvious that the Mets are the best Match (yankees not interested, sox only interested if the mets are) … Omar has a strong hand and is trying to get the best deal possible. That is his job I believe.
Oh yeah, and “fire rick down”
knee jerk over reaction single handedly ruins blog discourse
..i meant sox only interested if yankees are…….
Oh my God…..you’re right bluNoway2go !!!! Since we haven’t produced a top notch starter we should absolutely give Minnesota ALL of our best prospects right now for one player (who will be on the field every 5th day and command @ $20M per yr for the next 6-7 years) !!!!
I can’t believe that Omar didn’t just put this package right out there to start with !!!
As I have stated previously on this blog…..I would LOVE to play poker with some of the people who post on this site !!! If you are patient enough we may just be able to do this deal WITHOUT DECIMATING THE ENTIRE FARM SYSTEM…..Cashman and Hal don’t want to tie up the $$’s that it would take to sign Johan and the only reason Hankee the Yankee wants him is to keep him away from Boston…..Boston wants to keep him away from the Yanks and they are already in great shape for pitching anyway…..Bill Smith is basically playing a big stakes game of chicken and hoping Omar will jump first by adding Fmart to an already solid offer……it’s not like the Yanks or Sox will make an offer and Smith wouldn’t at least give us a last chance to better ours.
Stay the course Omar…….don’t cave in…..MAKE THE BEST DEAL POSSIBLE (even if that turns out to be no deal !)
LET’S GO METS !!!!!
yea the yankees are such a failure of a franchise (12 years straight in the playoffs) god why would anyone want to emulate that. the yankees also proved that you can turn around your depleted farm system in about 2 years as long as you flex the money muscles. so spare me the “mortgage the future” gun shy no risk no reward bs. pay out of slot this year and next year and i guarantee you our farm system will be improved even with player x y and z departing.
Yeah, throwing money out at draft picks will make them really good. Worked with the Yankees and Brian Taylor didnt it. Guerra and Martinez are high high end and come along few and far between. Last ones the Mets drafted with this high end were Gooden and Strawberry, so dont say a couple of first rounders and some money can replace them cause it cant. Omar knows this and is trying to get the deal done without giving them both up. Let him try because this is way too much talent compared to what the Sox and Yanks are being asked to give up.
Wow, your rhetoric is as useful as some of these other geniuses who think our best strategy is to wait til the price goes down. Yeah your right guys look at what our fabulous strategy of attrition did for us with Zito, oh wait San Francisco came out of nowhere and swiped him which exactly the same dilemma the Mets are risking with Johan. Johan is the best pitcher in baseball and thus, deserves a King’s ransom, but you think that 4 of our “highly” touted prospects are enough. It’s either quantity or quality and its fair to say that quantity is all the Mets have to show. And for the record, your insertion of the Yankees as an example is just simply counterproductive, the Yankees have a better farm than us so whats your argument.
If they are built to win now, what happens in a few years when those guys (Delgado, Alou, and whoever plays RF) are gone?
People keep talking about never having any homegrown talent become stars. They finally have a few and now they are supposed to trade them? As an Islanders fan, I know that all too well.
This trade could be made for less. If not, the Twins can keep him for now and Omar can get him as a free agent. there is no guarantee the Mets even get to the playoffs just because of Johan alone.
You also fail to mention that there are fans that complain about the trades the Mets DON’T make that otherwise would improve the ball club emphatically. The idea that Johan would not make the Mets into a playoff contender is just down right preposterous.
please explain how a team that won 88 games last year and missed the playoffs by 1 game will not be a playoff team after adding the best pitcher in baseball and subtracting NO MAJOR LEAGUE TALENT (including pelfrey whos AAAA talent).
Just to clarify my stance, I want Santana. I just feel that he could be had for less. These Mets offers are much more than anything the Yanks or Sox have offered. Omar can wait it out and get him for less. The Twins are not going to re-sign him and will eventually lose him for nothing. They will have to back down on their demands at some point.
I said it is no guarantee they would make the playoffs, I didn’t say they would or would not make it. Yes, Santana is the best pitcher in the game but he does not solve their bullpen problems nor does he help the fact that they will get little production out of RF and C or provide insurance against another declining year from Delgado and another injury filled season from Alou or even Castillo.
Also, in a few years, what good will Santana be if he doesn’t have a good team behind him? We have seen it a million times, you cannot build a team on free agency alone, it just doesn’t work.
Prospects are prospects. No matter what you think they can achieve, their futures aren’t certain. Why not trade them for a known commodity? Plus it’s not like we’re mortgaging the future for a bum. This is the best pitcher in baseball. This is a guy who is probably going to the Hall of Fame, and for the next team he plays for. Are you really going to pass up on a chance to get a Hall of Fame-caliber pitcher when he’s only 29 because you THINK Fernando Martinez, Gomes, et al COULD be very good players?
Who is Gomes?
It’s a risk reward situation. We trade the prospects they become stars, or they fail. We trade for Santana, he has his first arm injury. You don’t know whats going to happen. Our team is built to win now, but if we dump are farm we may end up being bad for years to come.
Oh my God…….another GREAT theory !!!
Since we don’t know if our prospects will be great or not, let’s just deal them all away !!!
You would have to be the greatest GM ever……for about 20 minutes.
Have ANY of you paid ANY attention to what the Braves have done over the past decade and a half ???? How many pennants and division titles have they won WITH MOSTLY HOMEGROWN TALENT !!??? When the Spankee’s were winning championships, it was done with a lot of homegrown talent and some “character” players added in.
Here’s the formula…………
Build the system……promote from within…..add complimentary players to put you over the top…win over the long haul…..build a DYNASTY !!!!!
the following players from the 2007 boston red sox were NOT homegrown:
david ortiz, manny ramirez, josh beckett, dice K, curt schilling, mike lowell, JD drew, Okijima, coco crisp
there isnt an exact mixture of homegrown and non homegrown talent needed to win. the formula is simple put the best team on the field and you will win. the 97 marlins were not exactly a homegrown team either.
How long did that 97 team last ???
Again….let’s build to win for the LONG HAUL….is Boston structured that way now…maybe. Did the Braves win for over a decade…..YES.
I would much rather the Mets be there for numerous years than being a “one and done” winner.
I agree…… The twins are holding us hostage knowing how badly we need/want Santana…… Lets be reasonable….. See who blinks, the Twins are betting on us, I say let them…….
A farm system has not yet won a World Series.
Its a stiff price, but I’d do it and not look back. The Mets would immediately go from a below average rotation to one of the best (if not THE best) in the league.
The picks we have this year should go a long way toward restocking the system.
I would include Martinez, and see if in return we can pull back Guerra or Mulvey – see if the Twins blink.
I was going to post something very similar. Add Martinez and try to hold back on of the pitchers. I think that’s fair.
On the whole, one or two of these guys will probably turn into above average major league players, and that’s perfectly okay with me if it brings us back Johan.
even see about holding back gomez or getting back a bullpen arm, one of their b-level prospects, etc
How about adding Martinez and Pelfrey and asking for both Santana and Nathan?
Too much. It’s not like they are bursting with position prospects. And it is possible that Guerra could be the best of the 5.
Tell them thanks, but no thanks.
Given the factors involved (the huge contract, he will walk anyway, etc.) Gomez, Mulvey and Humber is already a pretty solid package. 2 more players is fine, but as with the Sox and Yankee offers, they should be younger or lower tier.
I know Martinez and Guerra are young, but they are also the top rated prospects in the system.
So we have Mulvey who may not be an ace, but is close to ML ready and has good buzz, and Gomez, who is supposedly better than Ellisbury (sp?) from the sox. And Humber who could hit the majors for good this year (still a 1st round pick with potential).
Throwing the 2 other top prospects on top of that seems insane. The yankees offer 1 top prospect, a mediocre ML OF, and some spare parts, and we offer up this?
Actually, the Gomez/Guerra/Mulvey and Humber deal, while not crippling the Mets in 2008 (who knows the impact in 2009) could still end up being a heist for the Twins!
Take Guerra out and substiute almost anyone else, and then you have to do it (Omar that is)
it would be nice to have Santana, but long term, is the cost worth it?
PLus, if it goes down, who do you have to trade to fill any holes that pop up?
But at least they would keep Pelfrey…
To rank the top prospects being discussed in this deal….I would rank them this way
1) FMart
2) Gomez
3) Guerra
4) Pelfrey
5) Mulvey
6) Humber
I’d be willing to give up any 3 pitchers at one time. I would also be willing to trade either Fmart or Gomez but not both.
If they would take a deal of Fmart, Guerra, Pelfrey and Mulvey…I am all in. Sub gomez for Fmart and I am still all in. Dropping in both Fmart and Gomez in a year where we lost Milledge also….can’t do it. THis is the poor judgement used this offseason by mgt. Milledge could not be traded if there was ever a thought that we would need to trade Gomez and Fmart.
Nice post.
Gomez, Guerra, and Mulvey would be a very nice deal for the Twins. They do a great job developing young pitchers and Gomez is a Twins type player.
If you had to add 2 lower tier prospects then you do it, but I wouldn’t give any other blue chippers.
Remember, we still have to give out a huge contract too. Minaya should not overpay in prospects too.
totally agree. Great post!
It is too much, oh I just wish they’d work a deal out.
Send Johan to Queens!!!!!!!!
yeah, it is too much, its waaaaay more than either the Yanks or the Sox are being asked to give up, just because our prospects aren’t rated as highly, which is BS by the way, they’re just behind in their development, but most of our prospects actually have higher ceilings than the other teams. Either way, I don’t believe this report, it might be true, it might also be total BS, and either way, its too much. Keep F-mart, add someone else, and thats still a hell of a package.
Agreed.
When this all started, the Twins wanted Reyes.
Now they want FMart.
When they realize the Yanks and Sox really don’t have an interest in Johan, they’ll be stuck with the Mets offer (which is still a pretty solid offer.)
Right now the Twins are trying to play hardball, but the longer this carries on the better the Mets chances.
Maybe it is a dance. Omar counters with Gomez + Martinez, but take out Guerra and Mulvey and replace them with Neise and someone else.
That Guerra kid could be real nasty, and soon, in the majors.
At least the Gomez, Mulvey, Humber core seems to be accurate (and I am fine with all of them going if need be).
THat 4th (and 5th?) guy are just going to be the sticking points.
You can’t take out both Guerra and Mulvey. The deal won’t get done. The Twins have seemingly no interest in Pelfrey and Humber, and you know that they want the package to be pitching heavy.
its times like this when im glad its not actually my decision to make. i cant make a decision. I see from both sides of the coin. Johan on the mets would make a very very solid rotation….but that is a hell of a lot to give up, on top of however much we wind up paying in $$. I would agree with whats already been said tho, if you can insert Martinez and somehow pull back Guerra, then i would have to do it. again, glad its not my decision. i feel for omar
This assures a WS date for our last season at Shea. We lost out on Vlad ,A-rod and like you said 10 yrs ago on Pedro. Lets not add Johan to that list. For all we know these kids can be the new version of generation k and Jay Payton. Plus to soften the blow we have 3 early round picks. We can also ask Minny to add a kid on their end like Oakland did with Haren. So in reality we only lose 1 player. OMAR ,pull the trigger and lets get this done already, i’m tired of reading the same recycled story every week.
maybe they have a C or 1B prospect that is blocked? We need new blood at those spots soon!
You read my mind.
just read the article. Actually pretty reasonably thought out and fair. He did call out the Yankee offer as weak (a top P prospect, bu not much else).
Probably the sox get him if they decide to put Lowire, Lester and Ellisbury together in the same package.
still, the mets can’t give up Guerra and Martinez, plus 3 more good players (all ML ready or real close) for 1 year rental on a SP that needs a big contract.
And contrary to popular opinion, the Mets aren’t built to “win now”, implying that it is this year or never. If so, it makes even less sense to dump the farm and sign a SP to a huge LT deal!
And contrary to popular opinion, the Mets aren’t built to “win now”,
Maybe not but they are built to take the East, ADDING Johan will make them a win now team.
I disagree with your “aren’t built to win now” statement. IF that were true, Omar and Willie wouldn’t be hiding behind the “we couldn’t wait for Milledge’s development” excuse in making the deal with the Nats. Trading a 22 Year old OF who was your gem at one point and supposed to start for a 29 year old RF and a catcher who can’t hit ISNT a move for “let’s wait and see”
If Reyes, Wright, and Beltran are our young offensive core, then Johan, Maine, and Oliver Perez should by logic, be our PITCHING core. I agree that Guerra should for all intents and purposes should be nasty…but so should’ve Humber, and he got hurt and who knows what shall happen then?
We still get to keep our most ready young pitcher in Pelfrey. Trade Humber, Mulvey, and Guerra. Give them Gomez as well. He has shown potential, but the jury is still out. Omar should get on the phone tomorrow, and not get off until he is able to work a trade with the Twins that doesn’t include Fernando Martinez.
However, in the end, and i mean the “ok omar, we have boston on the other line, say hello Theo” “Hello Omar, it’s Theo” “do we have a deal or what, Omar” type of end, if F-Mart must go, so be it.
To make this trade, we have to sign Perez and Maine to extensions. Do that, get Santana, and you have core for years to come … but lose those guys, and in two years we have a one man pitching staff with nothing close in the system coming up.
Add Pelfrey to that mix, and you would have a potentially dominant rotation for 3-4 years. Assuming he hits his potential.
Hey, instead of 3-4 back end guys, try having 4 #1/#2 guys at the same time!
Even nicer to add Guerra in another 2 years or so.
No matter what happens with Santana, they need to try and extend Ollie ASAP.
Phuck Pelfey. He’s a one-pitch pitcher. He needs to go to the bullpen where he can be best utilized why he figures out how to throw a good breaking ball, forkball, change-up . . . . SOMETHING!!!!
Frankly, I’d rather give them Pelfrey than F-Mart. I guess the Twins aren’t interested in Pelfrey.
Excellent point. Signing Perez, especially (due for FA in 09) is crucial. Without having a solid trio (Santana, Maine, Perez) there’s no use pinning all of our franchise hopes in one pitcher (even if he’s the best). Having that 3 at the top of our rotation along with Reyes, Wright and Beltran, we’ll still be able to contend in the NL East, at least.
Great point !
It is also possible that the story (the offer and the counter) is 100% true. And that Omar really is at his limit, he won’t budge (nor should he), and they just walk away.
Call the Twins bluff. The 4 guys on the table are already probably the best offer.
And look at it this way. Pitching is expensive, but what else could you get for that package? Snell + how much else? Or can you get someone like Snell for less?
Pirates want even more believe it or not. That’s why you don’t hear rumors about him
Pirates want more? . . . for who?
As we well know, NOTHING EVER assures a WS date, thats why we play the games…no doubt getting Santana helps a lot haha but nothing is ever assured…I agree with whoever said thank God it isn’t their decision haha this is so tough good luck Omar, get Santana without getting fleeced!
Don’t you think if we had Santana starting 3 of those last 17 games last season that we would never be talking about the collapse?
You get Santana, we have the bet 1-2 punch (probably 1-2-3-4 as well) in the league. We have a 20-win pitcher who can pitch well over 200 innings, the bullpen gets more rest. A more rested bullpen is more effective. Getting Santana helps the pen as well since you’re taking away innings you’d have to see Brian Stokes or Scott Schoeneweis pitch.
Also, ask any position player how they feel seeing a pitcher like Santana on the mound. That’s certainly a morale booster.
In this modern climate, it seems that the only way to ever get a real #1 starter is to trade for him, as most teams lock up guys way before free agency. Much like in a draft, where a single #1 pick is worth a whole slew of #3s and 4s, I think you have to view the trade as a plus for the Mets, b/c they would be receiving the one irreplaceable commodity – a #1 starter, and perhaps, the BEST #1 in the game.
Are Martinez, Gomez, etc huge prospects? Absolutely, but the Mets also could have signed Torii Hunter this year, Vlad a few years back, the did sign Beltran three years ago – all of whom probably are better than Gomez ever will be.
For as many sure fire prospects that succeed, there are maybe even double that fail. Maybe one of those five is a stud, maybe even two make an allstar game. Will they make seven over the next seven years? B/c I bet you Santana will.
But this is a trade, as long as you are comfy giving Santana the contract he wants, that you HAVE TO MAKE.
I agree. You dont just get a player of Santana’s caliber for nothing. Wish we could but we cant. We have to give Minny some talent in return for the best pitcher in the game. He makes our rotation freakin nasty! I also agree with StickGuy as I usually do that we then would have to lock up Perez to a long term deal as well as Maine. We get to keep Pelfrey as well? Makes so much sense. We then get to draft 3 top picks to restock. We also have the option of trading El Duque for good prospects at the deadline for teams desperate for pitching for playoff chances. If Pelfrey is pitching well the then Duque is expendable and a team will overpay in prospects to get him. We can even still go out and sign Colon (who won the Cy Young only 2 years ago) to compete with Pelfrey for the 5th spot, and then El Duque is really expendable. I have been advocating for trading for Santana and signing Colon. If not Colon then Freddy Garcia or Lieber but only to one year deals. God I am pumped! This is the most optimistic I have been this offseason about improving this rotation and by getting Santana.
Imagine this:
Santana
Pedro
Perez
Maine
Colon/Pelfrey/Garcia/Lieber take your pick
El Duque traded for prospects to replace those lost in Santana deal.
Sign me up!
Also maybe we can get Smith to throw in Nathan if we agree to throw in F-Mart. Doesnt hurt to try.
Who is going to give up any worthy prospects for a guy the Mets cant use as a 5th starter?
is everyone sure that’s martinez and gomez, or could it mean substituting martinez for gomez?
Most likely not.
From other media sources, it sounds like Martinez and Gomez, but they could probably pull one of the pitchers out if Martinez was involved (Hopefully Guerra)
The thing is, Christensen seems to be suggesting that the Twins don’t feel they’d be getting enough pitching back. They already traded Garza for young, plus lost Silva. Hughes is the best pitcher, but they are correctly unimpressed with other Yankee inclusions. And they feel Ellsbury is a better pick than Lester, but he doesn’t really come with any pitching support of note.
This offer from the Mets is really more well rounded in terms of pitching. They might even take it if you add Pelfrey and hang onto Gomez, but that leaves the Mets farm completely devoid of any depth to back up for Pedro and El Duque (short of Jason Vargas, yikes).
Giving up Gomez and Martinez would really sting. The fact that we hang onto Pelfrey tempts me, but if I’m Omar I don’t think I can do it unless Fred Wilpon has already told me this is my last season if we don’t make the postseason. Its probably a really good “win in 2008″ move if possible, but it could prove difficult having to replace Alou, Delgado, El Duque, and possibly Pedro and Ollie (my guess is we lose one of them, either get Pedro back for 2 years or Perez back for 5 at like $15 mil per) possibly as soon as next offseason. Your only significant farm option is Pelfrey, and unless Rustich, Vineyard, Pena, etc. become studs next season, there’s no one with trade value. We could end up with a corner outfield tandem of Ryan Church and Casey Blake or Raul Ibanez. I’m sure Omar will go hard after Texiera and/or Dunn, but the Yanks among others won’t make it easy.
You make a very valid point…….we need to maintain some kind of prospect base on the pitching end
I just can’t see giving up Fmart AND Gomez in the deal though………I really think Martinez is going to be everything Strawberry SHOULD have become
Just imagine of the effect he would have on the Pelfrey, that’s a hell of a mentor to have.
read the minny trib report. it’s martinez + et al. i’d love to get santana too, but obviously the yankees and red sox aren’t blinking. why should we be the one to give in?
the more time passes and the closer to free agency gets, the less trade value he has. and the twins definitely would prefer to deal him to the nl. this is a 4-6 month poker hand.
i say wait it out. the twins will check in with everyone one last time to get the best offer.
Because if we wait too long and don’t get him, there won’t be many plan b options left.
I agree, but I can’t take any more posts about Johan or quotes from Hank the Tank Steinbrenner. I’m so sick of it.
Seriously though, thats a might steep price. Trade Humber, Mulvey and Gomez and one of Martinez or Guerra. Stand firm with that.
Humber and Mulvey are Jeff Damico and Steve Trachsel. Gomez will be good, but thats fine. Martinez is the wild card, but with talent that young, it could go either way. He could be the next David Wright or the next Alex Ochoa.
whoa…D’Amico! That’s a name I haven’t heard in a long, long time…
I disagree. Pull the trigger now. You never know what one mans perceptions of prospects are as compared to anothers. Smith may like the 3 guys the Yanks or Boston may offer as compared to our 4 so if it takes the 5th player to get him then we must. Santana is that good.
This would be a fleecing. If they want Martinez and Gomez, fine. Not Guerra too. Martinez or Guerra. Not both.
Adding Santana doesn’t guarantee a Championship. Stop smoking crack. You have to balance win now with win three years from now too.
Let’s not forget, Santana is going to be 29 in March, too.
Which means he’s JUST ENTERING his prime!!!
29 years old is not old. Not in this day and age. 29 is the prime of a players career. Imagine him in the NL and in our pitchers park too. We sign him to a 6 year deal and we have him until he is 36. Most guys dont decline until after 36 years old. Especially the good ones and he hasnt had a history of arm problems and he hasnt been overused in any season. To the contrary he has always been carefully monitored when it comes to innings pitched.
He had surgery for a torn flexor tendon in 2001 and he had surgery to remove bone chips after 2003.
And he won 2 Cy Young awards!!!!
i can’t believe this is looking possible. i further can’t believe people don’t want to do it. take a moment to picture johan santana on the mound opening day in a mets uniform. this should take care of any worries about the farm system.
make this move and then spend the next couple years overhauling the farm system ala yanks and sox. they made major, fast turnarounds by drafting intelligently and keeping their high level picks. with the mets resources you can’t pass up this kind of opportunity over a 20 year old outfielder.
as it stands i firmly believe the phils and braves are better than the mets right now. bring in santana and we can resume ‘06 domination. please make this happen.
You forgot to mention we have 3 first round picks this year.
Exactly bro. As I wrote above we can then move a pitcher at the deadline for teams desperate for an arm. We fleece a team for prospects to replace the ones we lost. El Duque for example for 2 to 3 good prospects.
Only if El Duque is expendable meaning everyone is healthy and Pelfrey or another free agent fifth starter we sign are working out. Then we deal him for prospects to desperate teams at the deadline.
Do you really think it’s that easy? Like moving pieces around on a chess board?
Man, its seems like they can get away with not giving up F-Mart then I think they should try it. I think giving up Guerra is fair. He is a long ways away but he is a five star prospect.
furthermore, I really like the offer Omar made. I kind of assumed F-Mart and Gomez were both on the table. I think adding Guerra instead of F-Mart is a great idea. F-Mart might very well have a special bat and its worth our while to try to keep him.
Its worth our while to try to keep him.
I totaly agree, lets look back when offers for santana was 1st made public and that included ellsbury and Boucholz in the same package and trading w teams like the mets wasnt even a possibility, that devestated me, and now we actually are in the mix? This trade has to be done, always time to restock the farm, remember no one even heard of a Mulvey, guerra, gomez, martinez when we traded for Loduca and Delgado. Some other minor leaugers will step up, in addition with 3, 1st round draft picks to help , and I say stock pile free agent SP at the begining of this season, so at the deadline we have trade bait to restock some quaility minor leauge players.
29 is not “prime” for a pitcher by any stretch of the imagination.
Seriously, does anyone here for a second believe that?
I’m NOT saying he’s old, but this isn’t the same as getting a 26 year old ace. The price has to match the purchase here.
Besides Kazmir, name another 26 yr old “ACE”.
Dan Haren.
28 AT START OF SEASON, ….NEXT
Wrong.
Check your info. Haren turned 27 4 months ago.
still over 26…..there aren’t any 26 yr old “aces” out there.
27 is also not 29. The difference is two “prime” seasons.
That’s 400 innings. 60 starts.
And even if there was one (Felix Hernandez) do you really think the other team would trade him to us just because the Mets wanted him?
josh beckett turned 27 this past year
peavy, carmona, hamels, verlander
Again, do you really think the other team would trade any of them to us just because the Mets wanted them?
You’re missing the point.
It’s a lot more understandable to give up everything for those young guys.
Santana is either in the middle of his prime right now, or on the other side side of that mountain. We won’t know how much longer he’s going to be THIS good. Maybe he’ll be amazing until he’s 40. Maybe he’s the next Roger Clemens. Maybe he’s not. By his standards, he didn’t have a Santana year last season. Is that a sign of something? Plus, if you give 7/$100, what happens if he DOES decline sooner rather than later?
Hamels, and Peavy haven’t even peaked yet. Those are guys you give up everything for.
It’s NOT an easy decision.
TenTon…you need to look at the type of pitcher Santana is….elite lefty changeup pithers (Glavine, Moyer, Rogers to some extent although he is more of a curveball guy) tend to have very long careers…
Santana could pitch at a very high level for another decade…..but I do see your point…
Given the choice and for equal parts there are guys that I would pick over Santana….BUT THOSE GUYS ARE NOT ON THE TRADING BLOCK
That is the key…
You keep saying “maybe” on your post. Maybe the kids don’t pan out. Maybe F-mart loses value next year just like Milledge. Maybe the pitchers we send turn into the next GENERATION K. Give me something concrete like Johan’s 2 CY YOUNG awards and 200 innings pitched to replace Glavines innings.
Kazmir is turning 24 in 2 weeks….
People keep saying that we would be getting Johan in his prime, but I am confused by that statement. It sounds to me like that would involve a time machine of some sorts, and that could cause a tear in the spacetime continuum.
Santana is not in his prime. He is amazing, but his numbers have been slipping for four years now (albeit fairly slowly).
In 2004 he was 20-6 with a 2.60 ERA and a .921 WHIP.
In 2005 he was 16-7 with a 2.88 ERA and a .973 WHIP.
In 2006 he was 19-6 with a 2.78 ERA and a .999 WHIP.
In 2007 he was 15-13 with a 3.33 ERA and a 1.073 WHIP.
Clearly his numbers are still awesome, but they do not reflect the stats of someone “just entering his prime.” On the contrary, I see a superstar pitching on a slow decline.
Would I love the next four years of this slow decline to take place in a Mets uniform? Absolutely. I just think people need to realize you are not getting 2004 Johan for the 2008 season.
I think expecting his 2007 numbers, or a slight regression from them, is most likely. And you know what? They’re still pretty awesome. But even if we get Santana, people need to set realistic expectations and not count on him suddenly “entering his prime” and somehow improving his numbers. That is unlikely to happen without McNamee sticking a needle in your backside.
Coming to the NL, even if he IS in decline (which I do not agree with – those “declining” numbers may as well be on a straight level line they are so slight) – but coming to the NL, he would still have an ERA under 3, probably very close to 2, and with an offense that can actually provide some support for the first time in his career, he may begin to enjoy himself a little more and play even better!
If you look at Johan’s 2007 numbers, and the games he lost – if he had been a Met in 2007 (and assuming averages would have played out) he could have easily have had 25 wins, maybe even more. Don’t try to play down his numbers as if he is somehow getting worse. His so called “decline” could be just as easily attributed to the fact that his team has gotten worse each of the last four years too.
Slipping and all he’s STILL better than ANYONE on our staff
Generally lefties take longer to develop, and therefore tend to have a later prime
Even if Gomez or F-Mart develop into good to great outfielders they can be replaced in the future. We do it by signing free agent OF’s when we need one.There never seems to be a #1 to go out and sign like Santana in the free agent market. It must be done by trade so there is nothing for Omar to think about. Just do it already Omar! I cant believe we get to keep Pelfrey.
“you wanna be a cowboy fan, go to dallas!”
i’m really bored, wake me up when we get this guy.
johan is love!
To the contrary he has always been carefully monitored when it comes to innings pitched.
And you know that how?
Because he just finished his 4th consecutive season of over 200 IP. That doesn’t exactly show anything special in the way they’ve “handled” him. That’s a standard workload.
He’s an undersized lefty with mileage, and his ERA jumped noticeably last season. He’s also a great player. He’s also a pitcher, not an everyday player. This deal, as it’s presented right now, isn’t a no-brainer by any stretch of the imagination.
I am going to play devil’s advocate here. In the NL, he is a 20 game winner. That makes a tremendous difference to a teams record. More than any other position on the field. An Ace can improve a number 3 team to a number 1 team. You just can’t add 20 wins to the Mets record, obviously, it doesn’t work that way. But mathematically, it adds about 9-10. Think of all the games we could have won if we didn’t have to hand it over to the pen so early. So, yes, an ACE is worth it. You can have a 60hr guy on your lineup, but if your pitchers are giving up 7-8 runs a game…it means nothing.
It’s the top 4 prospects in our system (F Mart, Guerra, Gomez, Mulvey) and our 7th best prospect. We would go from a below avg. system to the worst. And I say so what? We were 1 game from making the World Series in 06, and 1 game from making the playoffs in 07.
Baseball America has Guerra and Mulvey as the Mets #4 and 5 starters come 2011. F Mart @ 1B and Gomez in CF (they move Beltran to RF). So in FOUR YEARS we could lose the back end of our rotation and 2 bats. Guerra it should be noted has already had shoulder problems (at 18 yrs of age) and Mulvey really doesn’t project as better than a 3. I know FMart and Gomez could be great but not in 08… or likely 09.
Prospects are prospects, no one’s ever won a World Series with prospects. We can win a World Series with Johan. If that happens while he’s here, the trade worked out. We can’t be obessed with what our prospects could become. We know what Johan is, the best pitcher in the major leagues in his prime. You have a chance to get that guy for players who will have little to no impact on our 2008 and possibly 2009 team you have to make that deal.
“Prospects are prospects, no one’s ever won a World Series with prospects.”
This is the dumbest mantra to ever be developed on this website.
The Yankees dynasty was built on players like: Jeter, Bernie, Posada, Rivera, and Pettitte. All these guys came up through the Yankee system.
The Red Sox just won a WS with significant contributions from Youkilis, Ellsbury, Lester, Papelbon, and Delcarmen. All players who came up through their system.
It is mind boggling what little regard people have for league average ball players. “Oh Mulvey only projects to be a #3″, as if these kind of pitchers just grow on trees. Carlos Silva just signed a HUGE contract and we’re pooh poohing Kevin Mulvey.
thank you for bringing some sanity back to the discussion. everyone in here seems to think that if we don’t send the twins everything they’re asking for immediately, we will be out of the running for santana by tomorrow. if i were a used car salesman, i’d be salivating at the thought of this group of posters buying from me.
“how much for that ‘97 accord?”
“$16,000. it’s a beautiful car, one owner, no accidents.”
“16 grand, for a ‘97?! that’s a lot more than i was thinking. ”
“well, remember this is a honda; they really hold their resale. in fact, i had a couple of guys here last week each offer me thirteen five, but they had it in cash, brand new, crispy bills. also, their money was in euros, which are worth a lot more than your dollars. i haven’t heard from either of them since, but i’m inclined to take one of their offers if you can’t do it for sixteen five. take it or leave it.”
“wait, now it’s sixteen five? it was just sixteen two seconds ago!”
“well, now she’s sixteen five. you want it or not?”
“oooooooh, okay, okay! i’ll take it!”
sound familiar?
If Minaya can do this deal, or find a way for the Twins to accept another player not named Fernando Martinez, then by all means pull the trigger and make the deal!!
And I’m totally fine with giving away prospects.
Just not all of the best ones at once. Especially not ones with great potential like Martinez, who could fill a need within three years if not sooner. Or Guerra, who could be even more valuable for us one way or the other next season.
There is no way Guerra will be ready by 2009. He is only 18 and just started pitching in A-ball. He is a couple of years out. The worst thing you can do to a phenom is rush the development of their arm. I know it hurts to trade them in all at once, but it aligns when you keep it in perspective. This is for the best pitcher in baseball.
Hey, if you lock up a Johan caliber pitcher this off-season. Imagine what we could shift our focus to next off-season. It has been a long time since we were able to say “Let’s just focus on some bats.” This is of course contingent on them re-signing OP.
We have enough bats. Look at San Diego, they don’t have any hitters, pitching did the trick for them. They wound up a bat short but not bad for a light hitting team.
San Diego didn’t even make the playoffs last year!
The trade is for the best pitcher in baseball right now, and likely for the next 3 years, and hopefully more. But certainly not for the next 7.
And say Guerra won’t be ready next by 09. That’s totally fine.
He still has value, even now, but likely MORE value next year.. As a chip for a trade should we need to fill another need.
Like First Base. Which is flashing a big red warning light.
Or Closer. Which is always going to be a concern until Wagner moves on.
Or more rotation help, because Free Agent pitching is never good pitching.
He didnt seem to be the best pitcher in baseball last year. Not even in the top 5.
We still have from last years draft that can’t be traded for a year, which might be up soon.
Here is the way I see it…….
I will bring up a few points/opinions, and you guys can tell me if you agree…
1) our scouting clearly sucks ass…let’s face it, there’s a better chance of Britney Spears winning mother-of-the-year award than us drafting an ace anytime soon…if we can’t draft the ace we need, which we obviously can’t do, let’s trade for it.
2) hitting outfielders are a dime a dozen…bonified aces are hard to come by, and more important.
3) we are one of the few teams that can afford to buy back lost talent…so give it up now and pay for it back later.
4) these players are not proven yet and could turn out to be duds for all we know…so essentially you’d be passing up on a proven ace a.k.a. best pitcher in the game, on a chance that these players will turn out. I say go for the sure thing.
5) The Yankees have won their rings by buying and trading. yes they have had their share of good home-grown talent…but Georgey was known for pulling the trigger on the big names.
6) mets fans and even the new york media are obviously in a “win now” mind-set…especially with the new park coming. Santana could automatically turn us from an 85 win team to a 95 win team. how many wins will F-Mart/Mulvey/Guerra/Gomez/Humber give us in the next 2 or 3 years?
7) I don’t think anyone will be happy until Omar makes the big move…you say get us pitching get us pitching, but then you want him to pass on Johan Santana? That’s like being starving and turning down a steak. An expensive steak, but if it was the only thing to eat I would buy it. A steak that could very well go bad won’t do me any good in three years if i have already died of hunger….man i went real far with that one, but you get where i’m goin with it.
8) we haven’t had an ace in a reeeal long time, it’d be nice to have one for a change.
9) We have passed on too many players only to regret it later…i don’t want to see it happen again.
that’s all i can think of now…needless to say i say go for it…it’s just too good. We have a chance to lock up the game’s best for 5 or 6 years. Instant Gratification, it’s in our american nature.
I’m with you
bona fide.
You make some decent points, but you just can’t trade them all at once.
Do we really think we’ll make it through the year unscathed? We won’t have any chips to deal for help at the deadline.
There is no reason to trade 5 blue chip prospects for one year of Johan Santana when Miguel Cabrera AND Dontrelle Willis netted two blue chippers.
It was 20 yrs ago when we had a pitcher of this caliber, do you want to make it 40? This type of pitcher just isn’t available. If you give up the farm that’s when you sign a Moyor type or someone coming back from injury. Give them time down below to re-coup,if everyone is ready and playing good you can trade them or el duque for a young guy to start rebuilding again.
If I remember correctly that pitcher, 20 years ago, was a prospect that came up through our farm system.
Tough decision Omar has on his desk.
I will gladly ship Mulvey, Humber,and Gomez in that deal.
The fact that they even are taking Humber is comical. Hes horrible.
Unlike with L Millz, the Mets would be selling high on Gomez. Which is another positive.
Mulvey at best is a 4 starter so no loss of sleep there.
It comes down to Guerrera and Fmart.
If I were Omar I probably would not do the deal if I have to include Fmart along with Guerrera.
I would rather give them Guerrera because we would have Johan, Olly, Maine, and Pelfrey for the next 5+yrs. Thats an exceptional NL rotation.
If Fmart turns out to be legit then we would have Reyes, Wright, FMart, and Beltran as our core hitters.
Thats a very nice balance if you ask me.
I rather take the chance on Fmart than Guerrera.
Now,If Minn wants both then I dont think Omar can make that deal. Im all for Johan but not at the expense of both Guerrera and Fmart.
IMO, the only 3 guys that have a shot of being quality ball players are Fmart,Guerrera, and Pelfrey….the other 3 I will drive to any airport to complete a solid deal.
The fact that we possibly can keep Pelfrey and Fmart and still land Johan is making me excited.
And another thing…..Stop saying we can trade El Duque for prospects. El Duque is a solid piece to this team. He will be valuable come post season in the rotation or in the pen. You dont trade a guy like that. Plus you will not get any prospects back on the fmart, Guerrera, Pelfrey level.
I like the fact that we have 3 1st round picks this yr. That will help out the system
In conclusion:
If we can land Johan for Gomez, Humber,Mulvey, and Guerrera its a NO BRAINER
If they want Fmart added to that deal I would tell Minn to go get themselves Melky Cabrera!
I knew all along the Mets will have a solid shot at Johan because they are the most willing to give up descent prospects.
If we land Johan and keep Pelfrey and Fmart, then Omar wins GM of the yr before the season even begins
El Duque is valuable? When is he ever healthy? The guy got hurt jogging in the outfield on the eve of the playoffs for God’s sake! You cant count on El Duque for this teams success. He is too huge of a risk. Also he does become expendable if we get Santana and keep Pelfrey. Even more so if we also sign a Colon or Garcia. I didnt say El Duque would bring us Pelfrey/Gomez types but some team would overpay if desperate at the deadline.
no one is going to overpay for El Duque, dude. Just stop saying his name. He’s 4000 years old and we would be lucky to get a 20th round ball boy for him at the deadline. Am I overstating? yes. But to think we could get anything worth having for El Duque is a fantasy at best.
You just went on a diatribe about how bad he is and then you turn around and think you can get some team to overpay for him? Do you even listen to what your saying? He’s horrible but you have to give me these 3 prospects for him. Where are you getting this from?
Humber isn’t horrible. He was one of the top college pitchers a few years ago, and last year, his first full year back from TJ surgery, he was one of the best pitchers in the PCL (a notorious hitters league). he even looked good for 4 innings in September before getting gassed.
Is he the next Gooden? maybe not (ok, not), but can he be a solid to very good ML starter, and soon? Absolutely.
It’s too much. The “prospects are prospects” argument proves too much; with that logic, you’d be willing to trade 40 prospects for Santana. You have to draw a line at how much you’re going to give up, even if they are prospects.
I don’t know if anyone’s done a study of 5-for-1 deals (like the Von Hayes deal). I would guess that 5-for-1 deals, where the “1″ is a pitcher, have not been great successes. And contracts for pitchers for more than 5 years have not been successes.
Look at what the the A’s got back for Haren. Granted, Haren is not as good as Santana, but what the A’s got for him is weak compared to the 5 being proposed for Santana. If we’re going to give up those 5, then we need to get back something valuable in addition to Santana.
I’m honestly disgusted at this! PLEASE JUST DO IT AND GET IT OVER WITH!!!! WE NEED A WORLD SERIES AND SANTANA IS THE ONLY WAY!!!! PLEASE!!!!
I’M ON MY KNEES AND BEGGING OMAR!!!!
IF ANYONE WHO READS THIS ACTUALLY KNOWS OMAR….PLEASE TELL HIM THIS
You are Mr Met! Tell him yourself! Tell him if he doesnt do it you will head butt his ass!
Everyone out here who favors this trade is talking about Santana as the savior of this team for the next 5-7 years. What if he develops arm problems? What happens then? You see what happened last year with Pedro, we struggled in the end. If you had Pedro for the last part of the year in good health do you think we would have stumbled so badly?
And remember, last year was the first year that Johnny Maine logged some extensive innings and we saw him drop off quickly in the end. We do not know if he will be able to handle that many innings, my guess is he will but you never know.
Pitchers hurting their arms are the single biggest reason why I do not want do this deal. Santana has logged some major innings and he may not be one of those guys who it effects right away but what if it affects him 10 starts into the season. Is he worth your whole farm system then? Just a point to consider.
What if we had not traded Kazmir, Seaver and Ryan. Man that would be a good rotation. Pedro, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Kazmir, Maine, and Perez. I know that’s 6 but Seaver and Ryan are getting old so they may not be able to go every 5th day.
Enough with the what if his arm falls of junk!
Now as for the trade, I would do everything I could to keep from giving Gomez and Martinez just for attrition reasons. Maybe include Smith and Gotay instead? That gives them 2 major league ready players.
Gomez/Martinez, Mulvey, Humber, Guerrra, Gotay, Smith. That should easily be enough.
If they want Martinez and Gomez then we have to get something in return.
Signing a player with a history of injuries is one thing, but You can’t be afraid to make a deal because a player might get injured. Johan is currently a great fastball pitcher with one of the best change ups in the game. He does not throw a lot pitches that put stress on his elbow. He will retain this dominance for AT LEAST 3-4 years. If he starts losing a little zip on his fast ball, he will pull a pedro and develop a little curve to keep hitters honest.
Unlike popular belief on this board, Omar is not stupid. He knows that Johan would prefer the NL where he can hit and with their “softer” lineups. He knows, the Yanks are handicapped with Luxury Tax concerns & their new philosophy or shedding payroll as opposed to adding. He knows that the Sox quite frankly, while they would like to have him, really don’t need him.
I have no doubt, that Omar will try to keep one of f-mart/Guerrra. But Johan is not going to come cheap. As long as he does pull a Phillips with a “take it or leave” move, I believe a deal is on the horizon (if there is truth to these reports). If they have to part all of these guys, so be it. Like many posts on this board:
1) The Mets ARE win now
2) The prospects we have are underdeveloped and will not help us as much as Johan with “Win Now”
3) We got 3 first rounders next year to restock
Go Mets. Get Johan.
*”As long as he does NOT pull a Phillips…”
Limarjus,
We didnt struggle in the end because of pedro. We struggled in the end cause we didnt have another pitcher like pedro. If you want to blame anyone towards the end of the year blame tom glavine. He didnt win a start in the last month of the year when we needed him most.
Santana has went over 120 pitches in a single start last year. The Twins are very careful with their pitchers and use them the right way. He has only been a full time starter for 4 years. He avergae 6 2/3 innings everytime out. In that he averages 102 pitches a start. He does not that much wear and tear on his body. He has never been injured with arm problems in his career. He is a difference maker the mets need. The way the Yankees are acting right now the mets can get him becasue neither of those teams really wants him. Offer Humber or Pelfrey, Gomez, Mulvey and Martinez or Guerra. If they say they want more tell them to take a hike and get a better offer.
I did not say we struggled because of Pedro, just stating a healthy Pedro for the whole year would have made a difference down the stretch.
As for Santana, I would love to have him and do not doubt his ability but that is a whole lot of talent to give up for 1 person. Will getting Santana help Reyes or the others hit better down the stretch? Will it help to keep Alou healthy? We have some prospects now who are major league ready to play (Gomez, Humber, Pelfrey, Mulvey) that might not be gang busters right away but neither was Santana when he first came to the league. I would love to have Santana but at what cost, the future? We will need to fill some spots soon on this team.
I agree that you can not predict what prospects will do but wasn’t everyone in the league a prospect at one point or another? You are always a prospect until given the opportunity to prove you are major league ready. Santana did not happen over night either gentlemen.
I think this team could be on the cusp of building a very strong and YOUNG team from within their own organization that could compete for a few WS in the near future. Why gamble the whole (near) future of this team for 1 guy? I understand who this guy is but what if 1 of the guys we trade developes to be just like him, is that a bad thing that you might have to wait 1-2 years to get a guy who could be your ace for the next 10?
Just seems to me the Mets are right at the brink of building a very strong and very young team that could compete for years to come, why jeopardize that? If you could get Santana for a smaller package, I would be all for it. Plus, he has a full no trade clause, if he really wants to come here we could have him next year just by giving him the contract he wants.
After all the bottom line is we are concerned about the health of our team and he is concerned about the health of his wallet, which is fair. But we could get him next year if he really wants to come to the Mets, keep our players and still have 3 more first round picks this year.
We could be possibly building our own little dynasty here guys for years to come, is one guy worth that?
In 1997 Pedro Martinez went from a thrower with insane stuff to a #1 who could carry a team. Also, Pedro was 25 and Johan is 28. Doesn’t sound like much? It is. Imagine getting to trade for Johan’s past 3 seasons.
Obviously, the Twinks are trying to maximize their return for Joahn here…..
There is no way that we should include both Gomez and Martinez.
I am with Mr. Met here though…
For thelove of Christ, please get this over with already.
Any chance they’d prefer Heilman (proven reliever and possible starter) or even Joe Smith over F-Mart? Then we sign Dotel and we keep F-Mart and Pelfrey.
I hate the argument that we have 3 #1 picks this year to replenish (’cause don’t we still have them if we KEEP our farm?) but in this case we can then draft all pitchers, drafting by need instead of talent (and going off pay scale for once)
No chance – neither have F-mart’s ceiling
Additionally, the Mets will sell out for every game next year and probably for a couple of years after that, based on less seating and a new ballpark. Even bad teams sell out new stadiums for a few years. Santana sells tickets for 2008. F-Mart and the others won’t sell tickets (if they get good enough to be ticket-sellers — keep in mind that it includes personality as Beltran doesn’t sell tickets) until 2009 at the earliest, when it won’t matter much at all.
They’re asking us to trade literally all our top prospects. It’s hard to consider Pelfrey a prospect since he’s been in the majors now. Our two top OF’s, and our 3 top pitchers leaves our system bone dry for years to come – even with our 3 1st rounders this year – there is no guarantee we’ll get anything.
We need Guerra and Mulvey, we can’t give them both up. We need F-Mart – our team will need a left fielder in 2 years.
I think the Yankees and the Sox cancel each other out. Each wants to keep Johan going to the other. That’s why Hanl keeps making this noise. If the Sox actually were poised to get Santana I’d bet that Hank would throw whatever it takes to get him instead. The same for the Sox. That’s why Omar needs to be patient here. Both the Yanks and the Sox would be okay if the Mets get Santana (obviously the Yanks would hate the resulting Mets great press) since it also gets him out of the AL. This may be working out just as Omar thought it would, and as many of us thought it would as well. FOUR prospects, no more.
FMart would be painful in addition to the other 4 but we keep Pelfry and have the ACE we need to make the rest of the starters better AND the bull pen better. We also have picks #’s 18, 23 and 33 in the next draft. DO IT OMAR!!!!!!!
It is getting close now, I can feel that tingling sensation in my stomach. The same feeling I had when Omar signed Pedro. Oh yeah!!!
The way I see it, Omar has to show us what he’s made of here. This isnt just a give the twins what they want scenario. Yankees seem to be backing off, Red Sox never seemed to interested. Cerrone was right, those two teams are only interested in santana to the degree that the other one is. Simple case of c-blocking.
We are likely the only other team johan will waive his no trade for.
We are the only team that can pay him.
Santana will not waive his no trade at the trade deadline.
The twins must move him now.
Omar has some leverage; let’s see what he does with it.
2 First Round Picks (Pay above slot) and 1 Sandwich pick… That can re-stock the farm system…
THe pay above slot comment really refers mostly to the guys who are “projected first rounders” who fall out of that round due to expected signability issues. Which means we do not “overpay” the slot in RD 1. Its rd 4 and 5 guys who think they should be paid like Rd 1 guys, since they fell cause the expectation was they would ask for too much See Beato.
Paying them above slot (paying them like 1st rounders) when you take em in the 5th is the what is meant.
Regardless….I get your point and the system can be restocked some if we have a terrific draft!
ok, so now that the Yanks may be pulling out of the deal…the Sox may be pulling out of the deal…how many other teams are gonna even come close to the money that Santana wants?
How many of those teams with the money are in the running for Santana?
1 team..so why should that 1 team bid against themselves…The twins lose out if they hold onto Santana and get nothing for him..Santana has said that if he isnt traded by Opening Day, he wont accept any trade until the end of the season…so the pressure is on the Twins right now…the Twins may accept an offer of Gomez/Humber/Mulvey and 3 or 4 more low level prospects for a total of 6-8 players for 1 pitcher…
If Im Omar, I dont touch F-Mart, or Guerra…I also sign Oliver Perez NOW to a 3-4 year deal….if they get Johan, that assures them of at least a good 1-2-3 punch for Citifield…if they keep Pedro, then thats a good 1-4 punch right there…
You don’t see 5 for 1 trades much less 8 for one. There is no way we get Santana and get to keep Guerra and FMart, I just don’t see how it’s possible.
Here’s the thing: at the end of the day, pitching is far more important that hitting. If you can get the best pitcher in baseball for two outfielders that may or may not develop into all-stars and three pitchers that may or may not develop into middle of the rotation pitchers……..what the hell are you waiting for?
If Omar has no other recourse but to add F-Mart, I do it. The player I would hate to lose most in this scenario is Guerra, if only because outfield production is not exactly hard to find and solid young pitching is. Sure Gomez and F-Mart might be studs one day, but the Mets have the budget to pay for their own free agent outfield studs.
This isn’t to say that I would wince and have second thoughts from now until 2015, but the chance to get an Ace (or rather THE ace) under control for the next 5+ years is too much to pass up. If the Mets don’t make this move and then fail to sign an Ace next offseason, they won’t compete for a division for some time IMO.
As much as I love the idea of Santana on the team, I think the offering w/o F-Mart is better than any of the offers by the Yankees or the Red Sox. And if Santana wants to play for the Mets as much as been written on this blog, he’ll either force a trade here or wait until free agency to be here. And trading for a 25 year old Pedro is alot different from trading for a pitcher 3 years older IMO.
if we make this deal, we might as well rename the franchise the Flushing Yankees.
Hey Levinaki, how are you? Long time since I’ve seen a comment from you on here. As a CPA, I see you are watching the Mets’ budget:) I personally think it’s a tough call, but if the Mets can get Santana and still retain one or two prospects (in this case, it would be Pelfrey and a few lower tier guys – plus they keep Heilman and Milledge – whoops), it might be a deal you have to do. Santana is the premier starter in baseball. Of course, he might turn into Kevin Brown and 3 or 4 of our prospects turn into Kirby Puckett, Manny Ramirez and Derek Lowe, but that’s what makes these kind of trade situations so interesting. It’s not a clear-cut Kazmir debacle right when the trade would be done. No pain, no gain is usually how these trades work. Still, it would be a tough time to be Omar, if things get close and he has to decide whether to give up a bit more than he’s prepared to or stand pat.
It is a negotiation, and no one else is in it. The Yanks and Sox don’t want to do it. There is no reason the Mets can’t hold out and force Minnesota to rethink there request of F-Mart. You don’t give up the entire farm if you are the only player in the game. Omar is doing the right thing, not giving in to every demand
MY. GOD. DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!
One of the questions here is whether adding F-Mart to the package mentioned would actually get the Twins to pull the trigger or whether this is all just putting out feelers? If this is a for real request, Omar has to do some true soul searching, but I’d do it. He’d still have Heilman, Pelfrey and some of those other pitching prospects in AA that we keep hearing about – and you never know if any of them could end up better than say – Humber. It might be worth exploring, instead of simply adding F-Mart, possibly adding “half of F-Mart” and having the other half of him go towards another package of players for Joe Nathan. So, I’m proposing that Omar maybe try and counter with Mulvey, Gomez, F-Mart, Guerra, Humber, Pelfrey, Church and maybe more for Santana and Nathan. Of course, then both Nathan and Santana would need to be extended – pretty complicated but I think it might be preferable to just giving up the first 5 players (including Martinez) for Santana. Nathan would understand that he would be our co-closer (more of a setup man plus) until Wagner’s contract is up (or he gets injured) and then he can be our closer. Of course, if the Red Sox desire for Nathan is keeping us in the Santana sweepstakes, maybe we need to back off of that. But, I suppose the Twins might be happy to get all of those players and be done with it and have for themselves and for their fanbase, both of those stars go to the National League.
I WILL PERSONALLY DRIVE ALL OF THEM TO THE AIRPORT…MAKE THE F-ING DEAL OMAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess Skillset wants you to make the deal, Omar – or he is gonna be asking the general public to off him again:)
If this deal were really available, and Omar didn’t make it, I would off myself, I won’t ask for anyone’s help.
clearly a divided group.
I see both arguments and this is really perfect hot stove material.
The classic dilemma.
The reason i would make the deal (with Fmart) is simply because in today’s market cash is still king. The Mets have it and can use it . They can sign Santana. They can compete for future free agents and they can keep the guys they want.
It would be a good deal for both teams. Minny does not have the cash and getting 5 propects is the way to go. While a lot of posters are not that high on Gomez I’m not one of them. . Speed kills and he has it.
Bottom line I make the deal. BUT not before the poker hand is played out and Omar tries to keep it a 4 player deal.
I also make the deal.
It’s not only a good “now” move.
Getting Santana sets up the pitching staff for the next 5 years.
3 words: DO IT NOW!!!
Hate to lose F-Mart but I’d carry his a$$ all the way to Minni for Johan.
Patience.
Our decision will be influenced by the decisions of the Yankees and the Red Sox. If the Yankees brass (Not Hank, but Hal and Cashman) decide against adding Johan, I can see the Red Sox’s interest waning as well… They seem to have only as much interest in Santana as the other.
Which leaves the Mets… who need to be patient.
If the Red Sox become impatient with the Twins, and trade Crisp for a set up man, which they’ve been rumored to be considering, the Mets don’t have to add FMart.
A package of 4 prospects would seem to be sufficient.
However, if push comes to shove, and FMart has to be had, and the Mets are held hostage by the Twins, well… Alright, damnit… It sucks, but Johan is that damn good…