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According to a person with knowledge of the 
negotiations, Fred Wilpon is willing to meet Johan Santana’s contract demands, writes Joe Christensen at his blog for the Star-Tribune.
…as i had written before, the sticking point for most teams has been the length of the contract, specifically because of insurance…
Christensen continues by writing…
“If Minaya swings the trade, as I wrote about today, Wilpon is confident he’ll get Santana signed. In the Mets’ camp, there is a belief that the price for Santana won’t be quite as high as advertised. Santana might ask for a six-year, $150 million extension, but there’s a belief teams could negotiate down from there.”
…well, like i have been saying, according to people close to him, santana prefers to pitch for the Mets and may be willing to work with them so a deal can get done…
This morning, Christensen wrote that the Mets can land Santana if they add Fernando Martinez to their current offer of Carlos Gomez, Deolis Guerra, Kevin Mulvey and Phil Humber
…my initial fear was that this report by christensen would motivate the Yankees…however, from what i can gather, the Mets are the only team that is truly being proactive in these negotiations…which is why the Mets are reluctant to part with martinez…and which is why the Twins will ask for him…
…i keep hearing fans and media say the Mets should retain martinez because they may be bidding against themselves…the thing is, the Twins do not have to trade santana today…or so they’ll say…by dragging their feet, the Twins can hold up the Mets from making other moves, such as inquiring about Joe Blanton or pursuing Bartolo Colon, etc, all of which could easily be unavailable to them in a few weeks…
…so, the Twins do have leverage in the sense that if the Mets want santana, and if santana wants the Mets, they can insist that martinez be included…sure, the Mets can wait and remain patient, and keep martinez out of the package, but who knows what will or will not happen in the meantime…
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You make valid points about playing the waiting game. In addition, who knows if the shanks want to get back in on this and end up blowing everyone out of the water. If we can get Johan, do it Omar!!!!
THIS IS A NO BRAINER.
GETTING THE BEST PITCHER IN ALL OF BASEBALL.
ITS NOT LIKE WE ARE GETTING VICTOR ZAMBRANO OR SOMETHING.
IF THE PROSPECTS TURN OUT TO BE STARS. WHO CARES.
THEY WON’T TURN OUT TO BE JOHAN FREAKEN SANTANA.
it’ll placate a lot of the fans but long term youre giving up lots of prospects for one year of santana, then have to turn around and sign a 6 year + 120 million + contract for a pitcher who could blow out his arm at any moment.
this is not a slam dunk for the mets front office. i dream about santana throwing the first picth of 08 but theres a lot more to it.
Or we could turn down this deal to see Fmart tear his ACL or Gomez be the new version of Alex Ochoa. All while watching Santana Win a Cy Young in the Bronx. Or maybe have him shut us down 6 times a year in a Phillies uniform since anything can happen when it comes to free agents. Yeah, that’ll be fun.
3 Words: Pullsipher, Isringhausen, Wilson.
Lets get the proven commodity.
Don’t forget Elvis’ cousin. Or Tim Terrific.
there are worst case scenarios no matter what the mets decide. but i think my point is still valid. everything comes with a cost. there is a huge amount of personal and acctual capital that has to be exchanged for the expected return santana brings. tremendous amounts of money is involved. i know we fans expect and in many ways deserve a big move and improvement, but the health of the organization cant be sacrificed to placate the here and now.
ok, i sound like a mouthpiece, whatever, i just want to temper my exuberance. i want santana but there are valid reasons why you dont pull the trigger wothout thinking.
The Yankees do not have the talent to match this offer from the Mets.
As much as I want Santana on the Mets, this package is a disaster waiting to happen.
Martinez and Guerra are both teenagers and already productive AA players. Gomez is the best outfield prospect in the talks with the Twins (better than Ellisbury and Cabrera by far) and they’re getting Mulvey and Humber too…
This trade can do more damage than one might think.
Don’t give in Omar, you have to keep at least one of Martinez/Gomez.
You ahve to ask yourself what we would have to give up in a trade for Blanton and anyone else. If Billy and other GM’s see what we have on the table they too will be looking for (maybe not as many) prospects. If your gonna deal em you might as well deal em for Santana!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
honestly i can careless..if they turned out to be stars..
its not like we are getting nothing.
WE ARE GETTING THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL FOR 4-5 years….
plus we can repair our minor leagues with our 3 first round draft picks this year…..
like how the sox and yankees have.
just draft smart….
i remember when we traded for piazza….
we had to give up the farm….
yes the people we gave up became decent players……
but Piazza made the mets alive again..they made the mets worth watching..
THAT IS SOMETHING THE METS NEED.
WE LACKED A ACE IN GOD KNOWS HOW MANY YEARS.
who did we trade for piazza? I remember preston wilson was involved… who else?
May 22, 1998: Traded by the Florida Marlins to the New York Mets for Preston Wilson, Ed Yarnall, and Geoff Goetz (minors).
Playing the waiting game is not an option. You will regret it.
Right now there are four different four player deals on the table. In my mind the Mets offer isn’t the best, so if the Twins say adding Martinez would get it done, for God’s sake throw him in the package and wrap it up.
BTW - I love Hanky Panky’s latest… he says his four player deal is off the table, but he doesn’t want the Twins to think the Yankees are out of it.
I love this guy!!
Hopefully this will silence the “Freddy Coupons” crowd!!!!
Do it up Omar!
Let’s see the dollars exchange hands before we start applauding Wilpon’s spending.. I’ve heard this song before..
and then he dropped $170 million on Pedro and Beltran. May not spend it wisely (Vaughn/Cedeno/Appier), but the guy spends money
No kidding, I don’t get it. When exactly did Wilpon become a penny pincher supposedly?
I’ve always said if the Mets are willing to give up that much for Santana, signing him would be an afterthought. Nice to see somebody confirm what I always thought, regardless of the “Freddy Coupon” posts.
too add to that list bobby bonilla the first free agent from the pirates
before we canonize fred wilpon allow me to remind you all that you will be spending alot more money at shea next year than you did this past year and thats regardless of whether or not we get santana so lets be realistic here, the guy basically owes us.
Not all fans go to Shea. Many fans are perfectly happy to watch the games at home, so that argument really doesn’t hold water.
They’ve had the highest payroll in the NL over the last decade or so. Wilpon is giving you a NEW stadium and paying for most of it himself. What more do you want????
Agreed. The Freddy Coupon nickname is just so lame. If anyone thinks Omar would go through these negotiations for just PR purposes and waste his time and credibility … and not get Wilpon’s approval to spend that type of money first … then they are just insane.
There’s no way the Mets would stay in this thing this long if they weren’t prepared to meet Santana’s price. That would only piss off some fans even more.
never thot of him as freddy coupons. the name is ridiculous to me.
It’s more than ridiculous. It’s obscenely ridiculous. If anything Wilpon has gone above and beyond the call of duty when it comes to throwing money around. He’s overpaid for almost every free agent that’s signed here since he took control of the team.
freddie coupons is a hilarious name, mainly bc i like calling him freddie rather than fred for some reason. didnt know he had so many relatives on this website. do any of you guys get a cut of the fanwalk bricks?
unfortunately, fans on forget to compare him to 29 other owners, and only compare him to Steinbrenner and Henry, and the fact that he won’t shell out close to $200 million a year, which is just ridiculous, especially considering the national revenue stream that the Sox and Yankees have, which the Mets don’t (and I don’t want them to ever have….screw bandwagon fans).
i agree with you gomets6091. we should be comparing wilpon to the braves and the phillies.
I say do it…Santana changes the dynamic of this team, for the better. LETS GO METS!
I can’t stand it anymore! I am like a kid on x-mas wondering what the big gift behind the tree is with my name on it!
Get it done, and lets move on.
Ps. You’ll shoot your eye out!
If it’s a big gift, it’s probably Colon.
lol
Yea thats the gift you thought you were going to get and it turns out to be pink bunny rabbit P.J.’s with matching hood.
Wait, what’s that over there behind the desk?
he looks like a pink nightmare
NADDAFINGAH!!
There’s a SNL skit for you “Its Colon in a box!!!!….oooohhhhh” Just get JTimberlake to do the skit and put Rosey in the Box to play Colon.
hahaa
Exactly. Seems the momentum is in our favor to land him so F-Mart shouldnt prevent us from doing the deal. We are keeping Pelfrey for god’s sake! Gomez and F-Mart can be replaced through free agency when necessary while an ace like Santana never seems to be available on the FA market anymore. Even if he was we would have to compete with all of baseball to sign him. Dont wait and lose this chance Omar. The Mets need him and the fans need him for a boost to our morale after the collaspe. Imagine him opening day this year at Shea or even better opening day at CitiField. Would be truly amazing. Please do it Omar. I beg of you!
We are so close to getting him now. He is in our grasps. If we dont get Santana and this was all a tease there will be many, many angry Met fans including myself. Get him Omar and Lets go Mets!
I agree that we should do it if it gets the deal done sooner than later, but isn’t it hard to believe that the 3 guys that we figured would be battling to flank Carlos Beltran when CitiField opens will no longer even be in our organization? A lot of excitement about these kids will have been wasted
Yeah but who will start for the Mets on opening Day 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, etc.
Pedro this year
John Maine, 2009-2012 at least.
I’d rather waste excitement on a bunch of prospects than I would waste years of Reyes’, Wright’s and Beltran’s production with a shaky rotation.
I hear Duncan is available. Is Esix Snead on someone’s 40-man?
Have you heard of an MVP like Snead who wasn’t on a team’s 40-man?
How many pennies ARE there in 150 million?
Just kidding, couldn’t resist. I think the Freddie Coupons thing is incredibly stupid also.
15,000,000,000
despite the fact that this treadmill has been running since October, I feel like it’s tantalizingly close…PLEASE GET US SANTANA!
So at the end of the day, is the perceived “discount” they get to extend Santana worth more than holding on to your prospects and getting into a bidding war next winter. I still think this isn’t as cut and dry as some want it to be, but gun to my head, I make that trade and hope to god this team makes good use of its three first-round picks this year. I also want to see this team try and fill the departures of Martinez and Guerra with some significant international signings.
Agreed. When this thing was starting to go crazy back in December, I persistently stated that I would not do a trade that included Martinez, Gomez and Guerra. However, after the past month of taking some time off from reading and posting on this site, I think I’ve changed my mind. This team NEEDS Santana to open Citifield with next year. A couple of years ago we took a risk by giving Pedro four years. We all knew he probably wouldn’t pitch all four years, but it was worth the money because his signing changed the demeanor of this team.
Bottom line is, this team cannot afford to not get this guy. Would I rather trade less to get him? Of course. Would I rather wait him out a year and sign him as a free agent? Probably. But given that all of these options pose the risk of losing him, I think this is a situation where you have to overpay for a guy who will be the first Ace this team has had since Doc.
Anyone get the sense that it is right around the corner?
It is getting extremely hard to type with my fingers croseed. Let’s get this done.
I have this vision of a press conference at Shea next week.
And at yankee stadium Hank Stenbrenner will hold a press conference to state that he wont be pursuing Santana next year or Arod in 2017.
I sure do. Never felt this confident we were getting him. If we dont now I will be furious.
anyone else starting to get the idea that this is a lot closer than anyone in the media thinks? C’mon Omar, we need this bad.
If he’s so willing to play for the Mets, why dont we wait until next offseason to sign him and keep all our prospects? The Yanks and sox don’t seem like they want to give up their spects so why should we? I want him asap too, not at the expense of FMart and Guerra. If either the Yanks Sox start going harder after him then I’d understand overpaying for him but if no one is going to go after him herd why should we? Santana has already stated he wont be traded during the season, so if he makes it to opening day, hes as good as ours in ‘09(as long as what he claims is true).
Nah, as soon as Joba falls flat on his face as a starter, the Yankess will go after Santana if he stays and becomes a FA. There will end up being a bidding war.
Yeah this has to get done. Anything less than getting him now will be utter disappointment. And the only thing we will have to look forward to if we don’t is more disappointment when 4/5 of those prospects wind up just pretty good or mediocre, and the “what ifs” will relentlessly haunt us.
YOUR TIME HAS COME OR WHATEVER THE MOTTO IS NOW. DO IT!!
Exactly. Anything less IS UTTER DISAPPOINTMENT.
With the Mets’ international scouting machine working hard, I am sure htey will find some Martinez-like prospects in the next couple of years under some rock somewhere.
Otherwise, extra outfielders can be found, good players can be developed, but a Santana-type being available for unproven talent is rare enough to pull the trigger.
I’m nto normally for giving up good young talent, but their corrent core already consists of goog young talent that this trade is logical to help the Mets get to the quality level of the top Americna League teams.
well with this signing well attract more of the venezuelan market which is really pumping out high quality players. it will also give us a big boost in the dominican market which we already have control over.
Based on Santana trade talks:
Santana is 29 next year, and will be 30 when Citi Field opens. How exactly will he still be “young” at that point?
“plus, don’t forget, the Mets have three picks during the first round-and-a-half of the draft in June…”
This has no bearing on anything. The prospects the Mets are talking about trading away are going to be set to contribute in 2008 and 2009. Since I KNOW one of the guys that runs the Mets draft, I can say with complete confidence that they are not going to make a habit of drafting college guys that can vault to the Majors quickly. So if they’re not doing that, then anyone they draft this June is unlikely to contribute in the same window as the prospects they trade. It’s completely irrelevant.
“but, the Mets are never going to sign an ace on the open market…it isn’t going to happen…too many teams are locking up their own talent on long-term extensions…”
Um, all the Mets do is acquire outside pitching. Looking at Baseball-Reference’s “low ERA” column for the last 10 years we have:
2007: Oliver Perez - acquired via trade
2006: Tom Glavine - signed as FA
2005: Pedro Martinez - signed as FA
2004: Al Leiter - acquired via trade
2003: Steve Trachsel - signed as FA
2002: Trachsel
2001: Leiter
2000: Mike Hampton - acquired via trade
1999: Leiter
1998: Leiter
In fact, John Maine might be the first good pitcher the Mets have developed since Doc Gooden. This argument above is ridiculous. The Mets were more than capable of locking up AJ Burnett, trading for Josh Beckett, or Brad Penny, or Tim Hudson when they were deemed available. That they didn’t is their own damn fault.
“the thing is, as serious of a prospect as he may be, he’s just a prospect…he isn’t Jose Reyes or David Wright, who are truly untouchable because they have proven themselves at the major-league level”
Yet those two were ALWAYS untouchables, even as Minor Leaguers.
This whole argument is garbage. And moot, since the Mets aren’t getting Santana without giving up Martinez AND Gomez. The Twins have made no secrets - they want pitching. Since the Mets have none to offer on the level of the Yankees or the Red Sox, they will have to pay more for Santana, and it will not be worth it to them if they do.
Maine was also acquired via trade :)
Johan is so much better than everyone but one on the list above (Perez, Glavine, Leiter, Trachsel, Hampton). Only Pedro in his prime was as good as Johan is today. And, guess what? The Mets didn’t acquire the Pedro in his prime. Remember? He’s been injured for half his stay so far? Yeah.
Also, you can’t look at history (as Matt suggested by saying that teams are more capable of making a significant offer to retain their top free agent pitchers than in previous years). Times have changed!
And, another thing: I hope you are very wrong about the Mets strategy of not continuing to draft college players that are closer to major league level contributions. It’s a smart strategy when drafting pitchers because they are more phsyically developed and easier to project.
like Pelfrey and Humber?
pelfrey has some nice stuff and as developed a lot in 2 years of pro ball
1) Mets didn’t develop John Maine - they got him just like they got Oliver Perez- as a young pitcher in a trade.
2) The point was that the Mets aren’t going to be able to SIGN an ACE in the open market. Thus, your list of #2 or 3 pitchers who the Mets traded for is irrelevant. There is a big difference between Mike Hampton and Al Leiter and and Ace. Santana is an Ace.
Finally, no one is saying that the Mets can’t trade for pitching - he said that you can’t SIGN good pitchers, because they are either traded or signed by their teams before they reach free agency. Name me the last ACE in his prime who went to the open market.
Gotta agree onmost of those points, but Maine was acquired from the O’s. He was not homegrown.
Except you fail to mention how the league views pitching has radically changed in the past couple of years. Pair that with baseball’s explosion in the last couple of years, and all of a sudden you have a league in which teams now have the resources to lock up aces for long periods of time, aces that, albiet are hot commodities, are RARE. Teams realize the need to maintain proven talent because of the length of time it takes to develop pitchers.
Hence, the minute you have a chance to acquire someone, you do it. Its a rarity in this day and age.
We still never had an ace
For some reason, I just picture Wilpon in a large leather chair in his study, wearing a black top hat and a monacle… feverishly clutching a bag of money and crying. I think the real poker game right now is going on between Omar and Freddie.. “Jefe.. we need to get theese peetcher.. juu know what I saaaying” “No..not my beautiful money..not my precious”
No offense but for some reason I picture you with a stormtrooper helmet on typing in the dark giggling to yourself over this post that is both equally unfunny and unfounded.
No offense.
did you intend that to be funny??
God, I hope so. Hate to think he was serious. He probably has more of a spanish accent that Omar does to tell the truth.
Although I completely disagree with you…that was pretty funny.
I know this trade seems like it is very close, but I hold of on trading Fernando Martinez. It seems like we are bidding against ourselves. We don’t want to lose our top prospect because we didn’t wait another couple weeks.
But as Matt said, if we wait a few weeks and another team swoops in and overwhelms the Twins then we kick ourselves for lossing Santana, and probably losing out on all the Plan B’s too. Has to be done now while we have the momentum even if it means Martinez is included. Remember we are keeping Pelfrey. Thats ausome!
Who’s going to swoop in? The article posted earlier seems to claim the Yankees are/were only in it in Hank’s mind and general consensus is that the Red Sox only worry is keeping him away from the Yankees. If those two cancel each other out what other team has the money to give Santana the extension he wants and would be willing to make the deal?
As far as I can tell we’re the only concrete option left for the Twins, we have the leverage. There’s no reason for our front office to overpay out of fear of something that’s unlikely to happen.
I’ve got that feeling in my stomach that this jtrade is continuing to build in attention………this could “right around the cormer ” as MetFanInDC wrote. C’mon Omar wrap it up. Get that man…the ACE we need. Then the rest of the starting staff moves down one slot making each of them better and less stressed.
Our ACE against our competitions ACE is a game we can win with Santana. Even the hitters relax knowing that he will keep them in the game. No long losing streaks. More winning streaks. That is what an ACE gives to a team ……a chance to win every day he pitches against the other teams best pitcher.
In Omar we trust.
I don’t think the Twins can afford to drag their feet. You think they want the Spring Training circus that will occur if Santana is still on the team?? No way, they want this over and done with. The distraction of Santana and the longer they go, the scarier propostion that they lose him for nothing. Santana could do what many players do, tell the Twins trade me before spring training or I go free agent.
Also you give up Martinez you drain the system even more. The Mets will not have any flexibility after this deal, so when injuries pop up and trades need to be made, they’ll be out of luck. If we give up Martinez too, we all have to understand that if/when Castilo/Duque/Pedro/Alou get injured there are no reinforcements to take there place other than Pefrey. And if the bullpen fails again and they need to make a deal, you have no one to trade. To me the Mets are in the drivers seat and should hold out a little longer to at least replace Martinez with someone else. With no other legit suitors, they need to make the deal with the Mets. Just hold on a little longer
I get its alot to offer, but come on, we arent talking about a 40 year old SP here.
This is the best pitcher, not in the AL or NL, but MLB!
If Wilpon is willing to spend 140 for 6 years to get him, how on earth do we let a AA prospect stand in our way.
It would suck to lose Gomez AND Martinez, especially since we handed WASH Milledge on a silver platter, but for Johan Santana, I think this has to get done.
And to all those who say Omar should stand pat and not blink and add Martinez, I hope you all then dont want to kill him when Santana either gets shipped elsewhere or stays in MIN and we lose out on him.
With 3 draft picks in the 1st round, I think we can pick up 1 or 2 OF prospects to replace him.
Just a question.
If this trade actually does happen, will all the haters out their stand up and apologize to Matt? I am seriously starting to think that Matt is going to end up being the only person in the major league media/blog system that had this Santana thing pegged from day one. Kudos to you Matt.
No doubt about it. Matt has been on it from day one.
Kudos, Matt
The Milledge trade was still a mistake whether this trade gets done…in fact, this trade would make it more glaring because then we would have no outfield prospects.
I figured we had the horses to get this deal done, I am just surprised that Wilpon is taking out the checkbook. That’s the only part I’ll have to eat my words about.
Church replaces Milledge. He’s just a bit older!
Basically, they now have what they perceive to be an established starter where they know what to expect, instead of a prospect.
I’m drooling at the thought of Santana. It’s tough to lose good players that we were excited about seeing (f-mart especially), but think about getting Santana. Even if F-mart turns into the best center fielder in the game (very uncertain), we can’t regret it the trade since we traded f-mart for the best pitcher!
think about being able to say that we have the best pitcher in baseball. that feels good. ridiculously good. and if we had the best pitcher in baseball (just like we have the best/one of the best shortstops and third basemen), would we ever think about trading them?
OMAR, don’t rush this trade because maybe the twins will take a package without both gomez and fmart, but we can’t let another team swoop in. GET SANTANA
No offense but for some reason I picture you with a stormtrooper helmet on typing in the dark giggling to yourself over this post that is both equally unfunny and unfounded.
No offense.
Santana might not be 40, but he is close to 30 and his numbers have slowly declined, so there is some riskk. Look I want to make the deal big time and if we’re closing in on the season and the Twins haven’t budged I think I’d be willing to include F-Mart, but right now I think the Mets hold most of the cards and they can be more patient and see if they can save him from the deal.
Give them Martinez and Gomez and try to subtract one of Guerra, Mulvey or Humber. I would much rather retain the pitching and give up the so called stud position players. These guys are all crap shoots. At this point, you have to make this deal happen sooner, rather than later.
Just out of curiousity, Mike Pelfrey is noticably out of this deal.
Considering the Met rotation would undoubtedly be
Johan
Pedro
Maine
Perez
El Duque or an outside arm like Colon or Lohse.
Our pen would be
Wagner
Heilman or Pelfrey
Wise
Sosa
Feliciano
Schoenewis
And either El Duque in the pen and Joe Smith, Carlos Muniz or Willie Collazo ready to step in
Pelfrey or Heilman could be trade bait to maybe replenish our offensive weaknesses in the minors. Obviously not getting a Fernando Martinez for him, but I think they could get a few quality guys back
Good point. Maybe the Twins can through in Joe Nathan if we are to throw in F-Mart. Then Heilman is expendable to possibly deal for good prospects to replace those we lose in the Santana deal. Just a thought.
Forgetting about Sanchez and Padilla to possibly fill in the bullpen, I have confidence in Sanchez because the Mets have some confidence by giving him a $850,000 contract.
of course the twins are claiming f-mart could be the dealmaker. they tried the same thing with reyes. they’re trying to squeeze everything they can out of us, to see how desperate we really are. you don’t see the sox or skanks tripping over themselves to give them whomever they want to get it done. it doesn’t mean we, in turn, have to jump up, slam our collective fist on the table and yell “sold!” as soon as they give us their excessive demands.
also, i don’t usually repost things, so sorry about this, but i can’t think of another way to say it, so……..
if i were a used car salesman, i’d be salivating at the thought of this group of posters buying from me.
“how much for that ‘97 accord?”
“$16,000. it’s a beautiful car, one owner, no accidents.”
“16 grand, for a ‘97?! that’s a lot more than i was thinking. ”
“well, remember this is a honda; they really hold their resale. in fact, i had a couple of guys here last week each offer me thirteen five, but they had it in cash, brand new, crispy bills. also, their money was in euros, which are worth a lot more than your dollars. i haven’t heard from either of them since, but i’m inclined to take one of their offers if you can’t do it for sixteen five. take it or leave it.”
“wait, now it’s sixteen five? it was just sixteen two seconds ago!”
“well, now she’s sixteen five. you want it or not?”
“oooooooh, okay, okay! i’ll take it!”
sound familiar?
Well we counter by saying we will throw in F-Mart if you throw in Joe Nathan. Why not? We then deal Heilman for prospects to replenish our farm. Heilman is on his last year anyway.
no, either thats a real a-hole of a salesman or you suck at negotiating
lol
no I get what you mean
that’s a lot of work into that post
that’s right. All posts should be kept short. Like mine are.
Homer Simpson Buys A Car
Wow. This is the first day in weeks of bloging that I didn’t see another Santana message and groan. This actually seems like it might be real….if this is another tease…..
…or if we a re being used for leverage on the Yanks all this time….
20% ticket price bump? Get Santana and we’ll call it a fair deal.
agreed
I second that.
Me too!
dont think i do it to include f-mart. were still only getting one year of santana from the twins. the contract extension is between the mets, santana and his agent. not the twins.
plus there is a lot you can do with $120+. you could sign half the teenagers in venezuela for that.
If you’ve noticed…we are not going to sign an ace who is not on our team already…this is the trend in baseball, at least for now, so we ahve to play by the rules. We don’t get him if he enters the FA market…which he won’t
i appreciate that - but the extension of santana is going to be a different case then the c-zm and peavy deals.
Its funny how we haven’t seen a lot of “Freddy Coupons” posts today. Where are you guys?
they’re drinking their cold cups of bitterness
They aren’t getting Fernando Martinez on top of that. Aaron Heilman is fine. There are so many reasons to trade the guy. If it’s at the cost of Santana, than give away Heilman. We can cope without him, and he won’t be a Met after next year.
HOWEVER, unless the unknown prospect that the Yankees have offered along with Hughes, Cabrera & Marquez is pretty good, than the Mets MUST add Heilman. Otherwise, I’d sit tight because we have the best offer in value and in the Twins’ most obvious needs.
excuse me, my than should be then.
Grammar errors…
“Fred Wilpon is willing to meet Johan Santana’s contract demands”
you have entered the mets spin zone. where the organization leaks their willingness to come in 2nd on big free agents or pay for guys like santana they know they’re not getting.
Ahhh you sad cynic. Not this time!!!!!!!
Ya gotta believe!!!!!
Do it Omar…………..do it Fred.
another aspect of santana trade….it gives us the strongest staff we’ve ever had in regards to strikeouts.
Any pitcher in our rotation any given night could strike out 10. More strikeouts=less balls in play=less errors.
although they do have a good to excellent defensive team now. Only Delgado (who is actually fairly decent) and ALou (who catches what he can get to) aren’t plus defenders with good speed.
my life philosophy is actually closely related to the teaching of the cynics of ancient greece. hence the name, zen.
AhhhhSo! Now I understand.
Don’t worry be happy!
Do it rotten.
The way I see it is this; from a statistical standpoint, only a small percentage of prospects ever even turn into serviceable major league ballplayers, let alone into Santana. That means for every Scott Kazmir, there are probably least 9 Bill Pulsiphers. And for every 10 Scott Kazmirs, there is probably only 1 Johann Santana.
As such, giving up your entire farm system for a decent major leaguer is questionable. But giving it up for a player of this magnitude is a no-brainer. The odds of even one of those prospects being as much of an impact player as Santana are very slim. Plus, Santana’s relative youth means that his impact player status is likely to continue throughout his entire 5-7 year contract. That gives the Mets more than ample time to field a great team while they rebuild their decimated farm system, which as far as I’m concerned, consistently underachieves anyway. A chance to get a player like this doesn’t come every day, and might not come for 10 more years. Do the deed!
You are overlooking a key point.
The Mets are going to make additonal trades in the near future. If you give up all your tradable prospects, you have nothing left for the next deal.
Even if they turn out to be duds, you still need to have them to trade!
Using that same theory toward pitching prospects, that one guy is Guerra. The talent, the make-up is there. That kind of talent is hard to find and might not come again for 10 more years. Everybody saying he can be replaced in this years draft just because we have 3 first rounders, is being naive. As like Johan, that kind of talent doesnt grow on trees. Please, get Santana but not at the expense of a Guerra.
I clicked on the link to the Twins blog by Christianson and was happy to read the posts by Twins fans. The majority of the Twins fans want to make the Mets deal over the Yanks and Sox offers. They like our prospects better and now realize Reyes in untouchable. So if what the Twins fans want has any bearing on the Twins GM Bill Smith’s decisions then it can only help us. They want our guys. I am so freaking optimistic about getting him. We better or I will be furious.
You guys should check out the posts by Twins fans by following the link to the Christianson blog. Made me happy to see their fans want to deal with the Mets over the Yanks and Sox. Wish us fans could make the deal. But check it out. It will give you hope.
that is actually a good sign. If the rookie GM is worried about getting roasted for the deal, knowing that the core fans are on board should ease his mind.
Judging by some comments on here, there’s probably a lot of people who in 1997 wouldn’t have traded Jay Payton, Preston Wilson, Ed Yarnall, Grant Roberts, and Geoff Goetz for Pedro Martinez. I hope to God none of those types of people are in the Mets front office right now. Get this trade done if it’s really possible.
My God. I totally forget about Grant Roberts. Havent heard his name in quite some time. He was horrible huh?
Only reinforces for me that you cant hold on to 4 or 5 what ifs when you can get the best pitcher in the game. The what ifs hardly ever pan out. Do it!
Hey it all worked out, we still ended up with Pedro and got great contributions from Jay pa…. uh Presto….. uh Gran…. uh Ed Yarne…… Geof…………. damn.
well, some of them turned into Piazza.
again, that is the opportunity cost of 1 trade. The next one you can’t make.
Isn’t it slightly more complicated by the fact that the Mets are going to need additional pitchers. Aren’t Pedro, Hernandez, and Perez all free agents after next year?
I think the downstream effect is that we might overpay for Santana now, and then have to pay for a couple of Carlos Silva-types at 4 years 40+ million next year because Mulvey and Humber are gone. Then, we are nearing spending a half of the team’s budget on starting pitchers or blowing the budget completely out of the water.
Additionally, the free agents will be either too-old crafty veterans or they will be young and in their prime, but the Mets would then have to surrender draft picks to sign these free agents, so the cycle continues.
Not to be all doomsday about it, but this has to be something Omar is considering.
We can resign Olie next year, especially if we make the playoffs…El Duque at his age wll be gone regardless, and he is replacable byany number of over-the-hill hurt half the year guys.
If we lock up Santana, Perez, and Maine to long term deals then we have 3 of 5 spots taken care of. Also we are looking to still have Pelfrey who can be our #4 or #5. So one spot to worry about which may be resigning Pedro to 1 or 2 more years or signing a veteran who eats innings on one year deal basis. Not worried about the future. As long as we sign those 3 mentioned above we have a great rotation for the next 6 to 7 years.
Perez is the difficult one. He could probably make big money on the open market, but I’m not sure yet if he would be worth it. He might be doomed for inconsistency and I don’t want to see the Mets pay for that long-term.
Funny, reading the Twins blogs and the blog for the Star Tribune, the Twins fans seem to be in love with the package that we could offer. Some of them are even saying to take the package without F-Mart and go with it. I know it really means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but it is interesting how our prospects are perceived by others.
It may mean nothing but it cant hurt either. Maybe Bill Smith of the Twins will listen to his fans when deciding which deal to take. Seems they like our prospects best so he may as well or at least consider the opinion of his fanvase. Maybe not, but cant hurt as I said. Lets keep the faith!
I don’t want him. Santana is on the decline and his best years are now behind him.
He was 15-13 for gods sake in the AL central (not exactly an up division last year). and with a 3+ era.
He has not won 20 games in a season since 4 years ago.
He would be our best pitcher but he is also going to be 29 on opening day.
I would not have preferred either Bedard or Haren. Of the guys being traded…he is probably the best of the bunch.
Yet….if I had my way…I’d prefer to trade for the Matt Cains, Tim Lincecums and Scott Kazmirs. Think Josh Beckett deal. With what we are willing to part with for Santana, I’d rather give 2/3rds of it to SF for Cain or 2/3rds of it for Kazmir. I’d consider knocking on the door of Detroit for a similar offer to them for Verlander also. They have 6 starters and have decimated their system by trading for Willis and Cabrera. Give em Fmart or Gomez, Guerra and Pelfrey for Verlander right now. Maybe they bite.
Get the young potential aces rather than the ace who is starting to slip. We got the worst of Pedro in his career. I don’t want the same kind of production over the next 7 years with Santana.
I hear your concerns. Would have wanted Bedard instead as well or even Haren but not going to happen.Santana is the best choice for us and can happen. Do disagree with you on the Pedro/Santana comparison though. We got Pedro when he was significantly older than Santana is. We are not getting the worst of Johan. We are getting him still in his prime and at the end of his deal when he is 36 he has a great chance of still being very, very good. 36 is not old nowadays for pitchers. Look at Clemens (I know, steroids), Glavine, Smoltz (he is the best argument). Santana uses the change-up as his best pitch, not the fastball so his arm should last longer than a fastball pitcher. He has the best change-up EVER.
SMoltz is probably the best comp. Yet in the same stretch of his career, he went to the pen and became one of the top closers in the game. Then he returned to pitch as a starter and was very good but not the same 20 win type guy he was earlier when he was winning Cy Youngs.
YOu are also right to call me out on the Santana = Pedro argument. Clearly we knew what we were getting into with a 32 yr old Pedro who had a history of some shoulder trouble. We did it anyway and it was worth it. But it was a FA signing…we did not decimate the farm for him.
I would not mind having Santana but the cost does not justify the guy.
I meant what I said in that I would rather trade 2/3rd s of the package we are prepared to give to Twins for CAin, Lincecum, Verlander or Kazmir. I think due to their age…they are better fits for us. They would possibly be worth the same package since they are cheap and controllable and may round into the pitcher Santana has been for the past few years.
Biggest concern I have with Santana is not his durability. It is the incremental creep toward being less that the best pitcher in the game. He is still amongst the best but not far and away the best as he was 2 and 3 years ago. We may be buying him too high and a bit too late.
Actually I think you meant last longer than a curveball pitcher. The changeup is thrown with the same arm motion and arm speed as a fastball, but the tighten grip takes off the speed of the ball. So fastball or changeup, the arm gets the same amount of work so theres no difference. Breaking pitches, on the other hand, are what puts the strain on the elbow. Sorry, I know we all know that. Just exercising my fingers.
What you are saying makes sense, but it is not realistic. The asking price in this market for pitchers so high that 2/3rds of anything won’t cut it. We either blow the farm system for Joe Blanton or blow it for Santana, and I’d rather the latter. Plus if the Mets fail on Santana, their desperation will be perceived as greater by other GMs and will force them to overpay even more for the good young players you mentioned. So if they could do what you are saying, it might be the better option. But after hearing what Oakland wanted for Blanton, I just don’t see the Mets paying a fair price for any pitcher, so may as well be Santana.
Given the option of Blanton or Santana…I’d have to agree that Santana would be the better buy.
But what if it was Kazmir, Cain, Lincecum or Verlander for the same price as it would cost us Santana and or Blanton?
I would choose one of the group of the first 4 simply because saving the $$$ allows us to put that same $$$$ back into the team in other areas of need like 1b, LF, closer etc. Those will be areas of need soon and if we have nothing left in the farm and we have paid top dollar for Santana in an extension, we will be paying on both ends and will have to drop something somewhere. We are not about to become the Yankees even with new revenue streams coming in.
If this is a poker game (full of bluffing and head games), Omar should let it leak that he has active discussion going on about other talent to trade for. Put the Twins on notice that there best out may disappear.
They know that if the Mets trade Gomez + Mulvey for someone that Santana is off the radar. And you think the Sox and Yankees are suddenly going to up their offers?
Closer you get to ST the less leverage the Twins have. You have to expect that they don’t want to deal with the fall out (unless they publically take him off the market and put on a big lovefest show) and decide to try for the playoffs.
As long as he is dangling, time hurts the Twins, and also because the Mets can’t wait forever, and will eventually have to make some other moves to finalize the team.
So it really could be a staring contest right now, waiting to see who blinks. THe reported 4 player package already seems like a lot, so I hope the Twins are the ones that blink.
Or just compromise. Take the4, and get a scrub added. Or if they want all 5, throw back that catcher prospect dude.
Who is the catcher prospect stickguy? Any good?
Stick….I like the idea of putting some pressure back on them also. Maybe by being public about getting deep into trade discussions with SF or Detroit of Pitts or Tampa for Cain, Lincecum, Verlander, Snell or Kazmir might push them to accept a deal with us sooner rathe than later.
The worst that can happen is that we do a deal with one of the other teams listed above if they do not move on the Santana package we have offered.
I agree that the more time ticks away…the greater the pressure on the Twins. Yet…if we are not doing anything to put more pressure on them, they can wait this all the way out to the conclusion of Spring Training if they wish. Who says that this has to be done by pitchers and catchers report time in 1 month?
one thing to keep in mind with the “trade the whole farm for Santana” logic. Even if all 5/6/7 top prospects turn out to be busts, you no longer have them in the system.
So, there is an opportunity cost to the deal. That is, you can’t trade them for anyone else if you no longer have them. That includes some other stud player that comes along, spare parts, or to replace injuries (or FAs in future years like Delgado and Alou).
This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t trade for a guy like Santana. It does mean that you have to be careful suggesting to pile on every top prospect to the deal, especially if you are only getting 1 guy back.
Of course, the Twins could toss back a couple of lower/mid level guys to help us out…
Very true. If they insist on F-Mart I have said we then insist on Nathan in the deal so we can then deal Heilman for a couple of good prospects. Teams need relievers and Heilman would fetch us some decent players. Heilman is in the last year of his contract and wont resign with us. With Nathan setting up Wagner, Heilman isnt needed so much. Plus I cant stand Heilman after the homerun he allowed to Molina and his puke face on the mound. He is miserable. What do you guys think of that idea? Just a thought.
I would love Nathan but they can do better by trading him alone rather than packaging him with Santana. I do not know their farm system at all but if we give them Fmart and Guerra and Gomez and Humber and Mulvey….I’d hope they could toss us back a very highly rated 1B prosect if they have one or one of their young guns in rookie ball who has potential (like our Guerra)
Tony Romo : Jessica Simpson :: Omar Minaya : Johan Santana.
DO IT!
Just do it and breathe some excitement back into this organization…
Minaya should find a way to keep Fernando Martinez out of the equation. What the Twins are asking for is more than enough. If they insist on a 5th player, then the Twins should provide the Mets a list of 10 prospects they are willing to accept as a compromise and get this deal done already.
Deolis Guerra, Carlos Gomez, Kevin Mulvey and Phil Humber.
That’s like 4 out of the top 10 Met prospects listed on Baseball America and various other sources. I am perfectly fine dealing those four players.
We need Martinez because of one reason: an outfield spot will open up in 2009 and if the Mets decide to trade both, who will you have to take over? You can’t expect to resign Alou after the 2008 season when he is 40 something or some other outfield retread who is getting old or looking to get overpaid. You will be forced to find a high-ceiling college outfielder who is capable of stepping into a ML lineup in the 2008 Major League Baseball draft instead of restocking the system with major league caliber-ready players that can contribute right away.
I say hold firm dealing Martinez and find a way to compromise. Analyzing the Oakland-Arizona deal, in which Arizona received Connor Robertson and Dan Haren in exchange for six players: left-handers Brett Anderson, Dana Eveland and Greg Smith; infielder Chris Carter; and outfielders Aaron Cunningham and Carlos Gonzalez. I hope the Twins understand one thing: Haren has a much more favorable contract that has 3 more seasons and secondly, you cannot use the Haren deal expecting that you should get the same if not maybe even more. Secondly, the Arizona farm system, like Atlanta is LOADED with players. The Mets will have no choice but completely ditch the Selig mantra of staying within those lousy bonus slots and just say f*** it, we need players to help us NOW not 5-6 years later. So if you want high quality players, time to pony up a lot of money.
Mad Dog and the Fatman are still swearing that Reyes is holding up this deal and that the Twins have not come down from their demand for him… i call BS