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Yesterday, ESPN.com’s Andrew Marchand reported that the Yankees had pulled their ‘Phil Hughes-centered 
trade offer’ for Johan Santana, adding that the they will not restart trade talks unless Hank Steinbrenner has another change of heart.
Roughly four hours later, Steinbrenner told the Associated Press that the Yankees are still discussing Santana, adding, “There’s still a little talk back and forth.
…oh…my…god…it’s like the movie Groundhog Day…
Steinbrenner, as quoted by the AP…
“There wasn’t an official offer anyway. You can’t withdraw something that wasn’t there. There was no official offer on the table at this time.”
Additionally, according to Tyler Kepner in the New York Times, the Yankees have not had a formal trade offer since the winter meetings in December.
…well, that at least jives with what i had been writing, which is that the Twins want Phil Hughes, and the Yankees will not part with him…once they say, ‘Hey, here’s Hughes, come and get it,’ the Yankees will vault in to the front-runner’s position in this race, and i believe that is what the Twins are holing out hope for…
…of course, if the Yankees can offer a better package from the Twins point of view, one which keeps hughes in pinstripes, but gives minnesota the impactful, major-league ready pitcher they are seeking, the Yankees current quotes could be true - even though they read like flip-flopping nonsense…
In the New York Post, Mark Hale and Mike Puma quote Yankees GM Brian Cashman as saying he could still make a deal for Santana, “if the Twins lower the asking price.”
According to Puma and Hale, citing ‘another Yankees official,’ the Twins continue to demand Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Ian Kennedy and Jeff Marquez.
For more on the internal arguments within the Yankees, check out Kepner in the New York Times.
At the same time, according to the Pioneer Press, the Red Sox remain ‘keenly interested’ in trading for Santana.
Meanwhile, according to a person familiar with the situation, Puma and Hale write that a) the Mets are unwilling to go give more than a five-year extension to Santana, and b) the Mets are not engaged in heavy discussions with the Twins anyways.
Last night on SNY’s Mets Hot Stove, the Star-Ledger’s Dan Graziano, FoxSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal and former-GM Jim Duquette talked with Kevin Burkhardt about whether the Mets should trade so many prospects for Santana.
To watch a clip of the discussion, click here.
…by the way, am i the only one who winced at the irony of duquette providing insight in to trading young prospects…eek…
For what it’s worth, when asked where he believes Santana will eventually end up, Rosenthal ‘reluctantly’ said ‘the Mets,’ since he no longer believes anything the Yankees say publicly.
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I know if it’s Mets related, you have to post it. But, it’s getting to the point for me personally where I wish the site had a filter option so that I would only see a Santana option if the article contained the phrase “Santana traded to Mets.” Again, this comment isn’t meant to say Santana related fluff shouldn’t be posted here as there may be a good number of fans still carnivorous for any hanging Santana news regardless of it actually being “new”. But this is my reaction and I thought to put it out there.
How about you scroll right past it if you don’t want to read it.
People love to just bitch and moan about anything.
It is getting ridiculous however. In less that 24 hours Matt has posted two stories on Santana and the Yankees that directly contradict each other.
Given the mecurial nature of Hank Steinbrenner, I think it would be a good policy to wait 24 hours before posting anything involving him as the story is likely to change at least once over that period of time.
actually, in the past 24 hours, the press has published two stories on Santana and the Yankees that directly contradict each other.
Matt comments on the mainstream media’s take on things, and this story keeps coming, what about this is so hard for people to understand? He even threw ya’ll a groundhog day reference, since that has been in the comments every day since christmas…
that said, I’d like a conclusion too, please ;)
Yeah but, I expect more from Matt than I do from the MSM. Those guys are mostly generalists who just throw stories out there because they have a deadline to meet. In Matt’s case, he does have the luxury of time (more or less), so he can stop and consider all the angles before posting a story.
In addition to Metsblog, I have a couple of other RSS feeds linked to MSM sports sites. So I can get those multple stories that often contradict each other and/or have no basis in reason. I look to Metsblog to make sense of it all.
Matt ownes a BLOG not a NEWSPAPER! What he does is comment on articles he finds online or in the paper. The sooner you can grasp this concept the faster you will understand that all of the posts ARE what this site is about.
IF you don’t like hearing all of the comments about Santana et al they go somewhere else and spend less time bitchin about how many times you have to read about Santana posts. You have a the power to choose what you read if you don’t like the format of this BLOG then GO just GO.
Try hitting the refresh button on the NY Daily News you will find yourself less frustrated as they will not have as many posts for discussion.
Geezzz I am sick of everyone bashing Matt and this site and how many Santana posts there are. I for one welcome the posts and the updates. I come here because Matt does the work for me I don’t have to go and hunt down the articles myself (I also use sportspyder dot com for that)
OK. Calm down. Deep breaths. In….and out….in….and out…Calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean.
Feel better?
I am not “bashing” Matt – I am offering constructive criticism (another feature of a blog, BTW) about filtering the reams and reams of Santana news that pours out of the MSM everyday. Matt himself has posted opinion surveys on occasion asking about the quantity and quality of his posts – so obviously it is of concern to him.
If you cannot deal with other people’s comments that differ from your point of view, then go somewhere else and spend less time bitchin about how many times you have to read comments about Santana posts. You have a the power to choose what you read if you don’t like the format of this BLOG then GO just GO.
I sense you’re a C student without a great ability for reading comprehension. I’ll try to dummy it down for you, I offered an observation about the state of media coverage of the situation, nowhere did I offer anything that to even someone with a 6 grade education level could be construed as derogatory of the author. In face, I made a point to state this in the post. Now go back to staring at the screen with your mouth open as you go about rereading whatever it is your little mind is struggling to understand.
FYI, obviously my post was meant to be directed at the genius who felt the need to get internet brave and make a pathetic attempt to shout down my intial comments on the subject.
I concur.
This is making me sick, we need to make sure that we get the other pieces we need for the just in case.
Chris Shelton was just Dfa’d. Go get him right away. He is RH and could be the replacement for Delgado. He has also played (very little of but still) the OF and catcher. He’s still only 27. He did not play last year but his career averages are .281 BA and a .825 OPS, those are by no means bad. Even if we platoon Delgado and Shelton it would be a great pickup.
If not then sign Mench. I think our offense needs a RH hitter still, someone who can platoon with Church/Delgado and play 3+ games a week. Shelton has played a little OF before and could not be any worse than some of our other options.
Bench
Castro, Shelton, Easley, Anderson, Chavez is very balanced. Offensively you have a LH speed guy that can lay down the bunt or come in as a pinch runner in Chavez. Anderson is a LH pinch hitting god. Easley can play many positions and offers a lot of pop against LH. Castro will platoon with Schnieder. This leaves room for that Shelton/Mench type. I would not oppose this spot going to Valentin although it does not help that he is basically a LH hitter. We all like to inflate Gotay’s numbers but he really went down hill as the season went on and his defense is not great for a backup infielder which we already have. My biggest concern for the bench is who plays SS? I guess Easley???
Shelton would be a great acquisition for any team, the question is 1)why didnt he play last year? and 2) why is he on waivers?
Injured, Rangers did not want him to start with.
“I’ve been stabbed, shot, poisoned, frozen, hung, electrocuted, and burned.
…and every morning I wake up without a scratch on me, not a dent in the fender… I am an immortal.”
Such a great movie.
I cant remember what movie that is. What was it again?
Heysus Omar.. just give them F-mart and call it a friggen day…. or better yet… don’t trade F-mart for the best pitcher on the planet, then two years from now, when he’s not Carlos Lee quite yet.. trade him for a platoon OF and a backup catcher!
We don’t even know if adding FMart would even do it right now. The best thing Omar can do is offer our Gomez, Guerra, Mulvey, Humber package and if someone tops it the Twins will call back and then you can put Martinez in if you want.
I disagree.. if the Yanks include Hughes and the other prospects.. I think thats the package the Twins want… ditto for the Sox with Elsbury and Bucholtz….
Why pussy foot around.. just go get the guy….what happened to a win now club?
Why when Milledge is traded for .20 on the dollar we are a win now team.. but when it comes to Johan.. it’s win later??
Then what does Fmart even have to do with it. If the Mets include him and then go back and ask the Yankee’s if they will include Hughes or he is going to the Mets and they say yes then we are out anyway. The Twins will give each team a shot before pulling the last trigger. No need to put Martinez in until the last minute.
Cerrone has been saying all along this is one big poker game… the first team to push their chips into the table wins..
Multiple newspapers have now reported with we include F-mart the Twins would accept our package.. so what do we do? Not include him…
Makes 0 sense if Santana is the guy you want.. any way you slice it.
this is to extrawhitemeat…
do you understand the idea of a trade and bargaining? Omar likely isn’t pussy footing around, hes trying to get the best deal. If he hears that the sox or yanks put a good offere back on the table, then he might say “here is f-mart” but until then…why chance it? What if the sox and yanks both say f it…you could get away with keeping f-mart and getting santana…
They are a win now team, but they want to make a smart trade, if even at all..
There is no way the deal gets done without F-mart.. the Twins will wait and wait and wait for the package they want…
The first team that does it wins…
Even a sleeper team like LA could wake up and be like wow.. we could get Santana with our guys…
There is no way that if the Mets go all in that it will happen right away. The Twins are going to take their time regardless. It might speed things up if we go all in but it by no means promises that we will get Santana or get the best deal.
As for the “Cerrone has been saying all along this is one big poker game… the first team to push their chips into the table wins..” You must have been reading a different blog than I have.
I’m not quoting him exactly.. but I think we can all agree based on these threads that if the Yanks include the Hughes package described above.. the deal would get done very quickly..
Ditto for the Sox and Ellsbury….
It only seems we have a shot if the Sox and Yanks are only in it to keep each other out.. which Cerrone has written MANY times..
And even when the mood is exactly that.. we don’t include a 19 year old kid who could be the next Alex Escoabr…
So there is no way you’re going to convice me that offering the Twins a strong offer isn’t the best way to get Santna here..
We’re running the Barry Zito playbook.. assuming no one else wants the guy… only to loose him in the end.. except this time it’s not Barry Zito.. but the best pitcher in the game today.
I’ll eat my words if Omar gets him without trading F-mart.. but I’d be bet just about anything it aint gonna happen.
We are offering a strong offer to the Twins. Gomez, Mulvey, Guerra, Humber/other prospect for Santana. Enough to were the Twins seem to be going back to the Yankee’s and seeing if they will top that offer.
If they Yankee’s are going to offer Hughes they will not do it until we offer Fmart. I guess you do not see how these negotiations work?
I undertsand your arguement.. and sure it would be great if we could get Santana for that..
But in reality.. it won’t work out that way.. they will just hold him until July if they really have too..
So if we have a window where the Sox and Yanks are out of it.. just go get him… cause if the Sox and Yanks are in it.. no package we put together will be good enough to get him..
Look what the D-backs gave up for Haren.. a Fmart package with those guys is almost the same.. if not a little less… sure Haren is cheaper.. but Johan is obviously more dominant.
The Sox and the Yankees are STILL in it. Just as much as we are. If the Yankees are going to give up Hughes then they are going to do it when we offer FMart. If the Sox are going to include Ellsbury then they will do it when we include Fmart. I still think at this point we have the best offer and the Twins are going back and trying to get the Yankees or Sox to increase their offers. If they do it won’t matter what we do unless Reyes is on the block. If the Twins do wait until July then we will still have the upper hand then as well.
I don’t think we have the best offer.. and I’m not sure even as a Mets fan how you can think that?
Guys like Lester, Bucholtz, and Hughes have already had success in the majors…. some have even stared in the post season.. Lester Game 4.. obviously Ellsbury.. and even Hughes pitched great in relief of the Rocket in the ALDS..
Not one guy in our package has played as well as any of those guys in the majors…
to the realsince86, from what i take from your opinion is that in the end yankees offer hughs and santana definately gos to the yankees?
Ok, for “offers” that have been made…we pretty much have the best offer dude…
The yankees offer was Hughes, Cabrera and i think one or two other prospects… Most places are saying Cabrera is a worse prospect than Gomez which in turn makes him less than Martinez..
The Sox had different offers, ONE around Elsbury, one around Lester I believe…and the rest of the pieces weren’t great…
The post says that the Twins are holding out for the yanks to offer hughes AND Kennedy, and i’ve heard many places say that they want both elsbury and lester or elsbury AND Buchholz/Lester…
At the very least, the offers are very close, Plus add in that we are the NL team that they don’t need to face nearly as often…
I’d say our offer is pretty strong w/o Martinez…
No offense extrawhitemeat, but you need to read things a bit more deeply, not trying to start an e-fight..but…come on now
ha wow.. I read things very deeply.. and also read BA probably more then most people here…
The mets were completely out of it during the winter meets remember?
Only when the Yanks and Sox backed up did we all of a sudden become players again.. the Twins have also said they want ML ready talent in a deal.. which is why we read for so long that they wanted Reyes..
The Sox offered Ellsbury and Lester together.. or Bucholtz and Crisp I believe was the other offer.. and then some other guys Lowrie, etc…
I agree Melky Blows.. but Hughes is a very very strong prospect…
Lester and Elsbury are both ML proven talent… and Bucholtz already has a no hitter on his resume..
So I read things very well thank you very much.. if I’m the Twins.. and the offers are proven ML talent.. or a bunch of un knowns.. I’m taking the proven ML talent.. that’s all I’m saying.
true…difference of opinions i guess…
I consider elsbury proven cause of his postseason, and lester i like..but I don’t think hes great or will be
And Hughes is a strong prospect but I do not think there has been a large enough bit of stats to make assumptions on..
thats why omar and cashmen and smith are GM’s and i’m just a fan…
oh well, either way, I hope this works out for hte Mets!
I have never seen it reported that the Sox offered Bucholtz. In fact most post I have seen show that they don’t want to include Ellsbury and Lester in the same deal.
Who knows if Hughes was every actually offered or not?
I still think the line of thinking is based on current offeres the Mets have the best offer but the Twins really like Hughes and want the Yankees to include him or they really want Ellsbury and Lester.
This is for Captain. I think that the Yankee’s are incredibly hard to judge right now so I have no idea. What I am saying is that if the Yankee’s do offer Hughes then that’s the deal the Twins will take. Without Hughes our offer is stronger than the Yankees but with him I don’t think Fmart would make a difference.
So in a round about way, I don’t think Fmart is even needed either way.
Yes I went back and checked and it was Lester or Ellsbury.. if they included both that would get the deal done…
The Yankees offers did have Hughes in the mix.. with Ian Kennedy being the sticking point.. which I find hard to believe..
Each time also had other prospects in there.. Lowrie.. Martienz, etc
So here is where we stand in my opinion
Current offers
Mets Gomez, Mulvey, Guerra, Humber, B prospect
Sox Lester/Ellsbury Lowrie and the other guy (lazy)
Yankees Melky, Kennedy, and b prospects
Edge currently slightly to the Mets.
Now on to potential deals if all teams go all in.
Yankees would be in the lead with Hughes, Kennedy and Melky
Sox would be in 2nd with Ellsbury and Lester
Mets would be in 3rd with Martinez and Gomez.
That is why I am saying that if either the Yankees or the Sox up their offer it will not matter if Fmart is in the deal or not. If we have the advantage right now then just see what happens in the next couple of weeks. Unless you want to make the Steve Phillips ultimatum then you should just wait.
I want to hear about the steve phillips ultimatum? Does that include giving Colon the 20 mil per season for 5 years, taking out insurrance on him, he gos down in the first year, then it takes 4 more years to collect insurrance $ while keeping colon on the payroll and cripling the team for the contract duration? or is that just for first basemen?
I think those were used on Arod and Vlad.
Great post and Great point made!
Ya know what? I’m done. This is retarded, the Twins are pussyfooting around causing a traffic jam for every other team waiting to see what happens with Santana.
After talks “heated up” a few days ago I figured we had a good chance, now that everyone is back into the “talks” it’s clear…
The stuff the Twins said about liking our prospects was total BS and was only said to make the Yankees or Redsox more desperete.
The Mets are being taken advantage of here, and I dont see them getting Santana at all now.
Screw the Twins, I’m done with all this BS.
I tend to agree that this is all posturing by all concerned, but that said, I’m not sure the Mets really need to “officially” bow out, or anything like that. Basically, there’s not much of a “plan B” to be had (price for Blanton too high, etc.) So, it’s not as if these negotiations are holding anything up.
As for acquiring Santana, at this point, I’d be fine either way. A deal that sends F-Mart, Gomez, and Guerra would be too rich, but hey, at least we get Santana — not a bad consolation. On the other hand, if we don’t do such a deal, we get to cheer for our own prospects, which fans seem to prefer (and I’m one of them.) We can talk in circles forever — what if we had traded Wright? What if we had traded Milledge last year? Whatever happened to Ochoa, Generation K, etc., etc.? We’re not going to know whether these prospects will pan out, or whether Santana will stay healthy or pitch well in New York. There’s a basal level of uncertainty we’re never going to move beyond.
So, I’m resigned to leave the negotiations to the front office and wait for the actual baseball to start. I much prefer watching baseball players play the game than guys in suits try to swing deals on cell phones. If I want to watch that, I can just lean out of my office and look down the hall.
Good points.
Just saw your post below — we’re on the same page, I think. Often the low-profile tinkering ends up being huge. For example, losing Darren Oliver last year supposedly cost the Mets’ bullpen its clubhouse leader. Adding Valentin obviously helped tremendously in ‘06. Adding quality depth can be the difference between a five game losing streak and a five game winning streak. But, again, this talk is a poor substitute for having actual baseball to watch — other than September, 2007 baseball, that is, which was like watching botched surgery.
To me if Omar goes and signs lets say Colon (who won the Cy Young only 2 years ago), or Losche, or Garcia then he sends a message to the Twins that we will not and can not wait for their decision without actually coming out and saying it. Maybe it puts pressure on them a little? If not we would still have a fifth starter we need anyway with or without Santana. With Santana Colon would be great addition and risk to take but without Santana Colon would be disapointing as the only rotation addition. Either way it sends the Twins a message if we sign a starter.
I can’t take anymore of this Hankee flip-flopping……..somebody shoot me and put me out of this Santana misery !!!!!
It is a Zen thing. As soon as everyone no longer cares about whether the Mets get Santana, then Omar will sign him. Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I got to the point weeks ago that either way I am fine with it. It would be great to get Santana and I would be very excited about or chances this year. If we don’t I will still be excited to see some of these young kids develop. We won’t be as good but we will still be competitve and will have as good of a shot of winning the division as the Phils or Braves.
I still think, however, as I stated previously that there are moves other than Santana to be made that should be made now and will not impact the race for Santana.
1) There will be one of the Loshe, Livan, Colon, Garcia, Chacon, Benson, etc. let out. Go get that one with a Sosa like deal to provide for injury depth with Pedro and Elduque.
2) Get a Mench/Shelton type that can fill in for Delgado and help with Church. At this point I see Church as very helpful. He can fill in for CF or RF too. If you sign Mench and want to give Beltran a day off then you don’t have to weaken your lineup as much as we did last season.
3) Bring in someone to compete with Gotay for that backup infield position. We really don’t have anyone that can play a respectful SS. If neither of them cut it then its up to Easley.
4) Sign Dotel or Chacon to strengthen the pen or make Heilman tradeable.
Pedro, Maine, Perez, Elduque, Pelfrey, (FA, Humber, Mulvey)
Wagner, Sanchez, Heilman, Feliciano, Show, Wise, Sosa
Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Alou, Delgado, Church, Schnieder
Castro, Easley, Anderson, Chavez, Gotay/FA
That lineup is good enough to win the division and possibly the NL. There will be trades available during spring training and July as well.
So, summing it all up. I WANT SANTANA but I won’t be jumping off a bridge if it does not happen.
I understand the camp of not wanting to panic.. but let’s not fool ourselves..
With a month left before pitchers and catchers.. the options are thin at best.. and the odds that any players left make our team significantly better are slim…
I mean a Chris Shelton post? Ick…
Shelton’s numbers are very decent and he could replace Delgado next year. If you do that and get Nick Johnson then you have a really nice platoon for 1B.
Sorry if I do not want to declare the season over with if we do not get Santana. Fact is we missed the playoffs by a game or 2. We will still be competitive this year and there are other deals that can be made once the Santana dust clears. Omar is known for making under the radar deals, like the moves or not we usually don’t see them coming.
Chris Shelton replacig Delgado next year?
You’ve made some solid arguements.. but please don’t ruin by saying Chris Shelton is a quality major leauge 1st baseman..
If we don’t get Santana, I would hope and pray we sign Tex.. no precious 19 year olds that you guys are all so worried about, and it cripples the Braves… it’s an easy decision.
And lately Omar is known for making terrible deals.. but I agree that Church and Schneider for Milledge was under the radar.
I would love to get Tex as well but the bidding for him will be tough and I would expect him to be a Yankee if he does not resign with the Braves for a discount.
Shelton is a quality MLB 1B. If he plays an entire season his numbers average out to .281 with 23 HR. That’s not All-Star but he would be very cheap and would allow us to spend on the FA pitching market.
I guess we disagree again.. he had that one amazing hot streak… and then ended the year in AAA.. so I don’t think the numbers tell the story at all. and in fact are probably skewed..
And I can’t believe any guy getting cut in January is thought of that well in the majors by other clubs and gms…
I am assuming you are refering to his 05 season but he did put up usable numbers in 06 as well. I think he would be best served in a platoon but hey with the way Delgado hit last year a platoon may be needed.
YAWN!!!
This whole Santana thing is tired. I really don’t even care if the Mets get him anymore.
You know that there is nothing real to report because every article or every opinion being offered is the same regurgitated garbage – maybe it’s worded slightly different.
If I’m the Twins, I’d be more than happy to take Hughes and one other prospect. I’d consider just trading Johan for Hughes straight up. Hughes will be Johan in another year or two.
Ha.. no way can you say that… especially since Hughes is a right hander…
ummmm what?
I SERIOUSLY hope your being sarcastic
Not at all. Have you seen Hughes’ minor league stats? He is going to be one of the best pitchers in the game within the next couple of years. And he’ll be cheap and controllable for years to come.
That’s who I’d want in return if I’m the twins. Anyone else on top of that is just gravy.
While I agree a Hughes led package is a strong offer.. to say Hughes will be as successfull as Johan is a bit of a stretch..
there have been other people who turned into nothing with MINOR LEAGUE stats like that..
his most innings pitched in a year is like 120..
He is still a PROSPECT..he had a few good games…
the twins would be the laughing stocks of baseball to do a trade of hughes + 1 right now
Hank Steinbrenner flip-flops more than John Kerry did in the 2004 election…topical…
Seriously though – make a decision and stick with it Hank – if you want to be viewed as a credible Owner and negotiator, it might be a good idea.
Too late for that…
The A-Rod fiasco really solidified that Hankenstein might be more volatile than the General…
i love discussing anything off season related, and I’m am friggin excited bout Johan coming here (i have been strangely confident since Thanksgiving), but I would like to suggest that for the next same old Johan post, we just reply with all quotes and lines from GROUNDHOGS DAY. Eventually, we can reenact the movie
Ned… Ryerson. “Needlenose Ned”? “Ned the Head”? C’mon, buddy. Case Western High. I did the whistling belly-button trick at the high school talent show? Bing. Ned Ryerson, got the shingles real bad senior year, almost didn’t graduate? Bing, again. Ned Ryerson, I dated your sister Mary Pat a couple of times until you told me not to anymore? Well?
First D.J.: Okay, campers, rise and shine, and don’t forget your booties ’cause it’s cooooold out there today.
Second D.J.: It’s coooold out there every day. What is this, Miami Beach?
First D.J.: Not hardly. And you know, you can expect hazardous travel later today with that, you know, that, uh, that blizzard thing.
Second D.J.: [mockingly] That blizzard – thing. That blizzard – thing. Oh, well, here’s the report! The National Weather Service is calling for a “big blizzard thing!”
First D.J.: Yessss, they are. But you know, there’s another reason why today is especially exciting.
Second D.J.: Especially cold!
First D.J.: Especially cold, okay, but the big question on everybody’s lips…
Second D.J.: – On their chapped lips…
First D.J.: – On their chapped lips, right: Do ya think Phil is gonna come out and see his shadow?
Second D.J.: Punxsutawney Phil!
First D.J.: Thats right, woodchuck-chuckers – it’s
[in unison]
First D.J.: GROUNDHOG DAY!
Second D.J.: GROUNDHOG DAY!
Gentalmen goodmorning, this post I posted last night is based on just opinion and would like to have some daytime bloger feedback on this theory………….So word on the street is that the twins are not sure if they want a large collection of prospects, or 1 or 2 major leauge ready players for Johan. Am I the only one who raised an eyebrow here? So opposed to cleaning out the mets farm system, 1 or 2 major leauge talent players could be adequate; whoom my guess either, Gomez or Church, to go along with either John Main or Oliver Perez. Very interesting as the 72 hour window for Santana negotiations could be used for Oliver Perez negotiations which with the cost to sign long term and all considering factors would not be as disappointing to twin fans. Or is it a Coincidence Omar continues to brag about our 15 game winners last season in John&Oliver,,,,,,,Bam!
Oh yes forgot to add Mulvey to the deal as he will deffinately be in any trade package for Johan. Then mets trade for matt morris, or just sign jennings to complete the rotation.,,,,, Bam!
I don’t think Perez would have that much value to them. Maine on the other hand, maybe. Question is how much would that help our deal? Would it be Maine, Gomez, Humber? Would that be enough or would we still have to include Fmart or Guerra. If so, what did we gain?
I believe it could be Perez, Gomez, Mulvey or Main /Gomez /Mulvey inorder to keep Martinez/ Guerra/Humber/Pelfrey,,,,,,,, This way a quality major leauge starting pitcher in Main with more cheap years to contribute, or Perez who is a high strike out replacement,, Gomez who is arguably superior to Ellsbury, and a rookie with a hot future in Guerra could justify the exchange.
If John Maine was on a different team would you trade Fmart straight up for him?
I want Fmart but Maine did win 15 games last year with a respectable ERA.
The only way I trade Maine is
A) They throw in Bosner or Slowery or Nathan
B) It allows me not to trade another pitcher. Something like Maine, Gomez, Gotay and Chavez.
No I wouldnt trade Martinez straight up for Main if he was on another team if his talent lives up to his reputation. Reason being Im just not that impressed with John Main and I think his value has peaked. Although there was a time when Milledge had a rep similar to Martinez and look what happened. Bad management yes by Omar allowed Milledge’s premature promotions which ran him out of waivers and his production that has yet to peak, is simply currenly not major league NY Met ready and resulted in his dishonorable departure by trade for lower level talent. Martinez needs to stay in the minors for a few years to blossum. John Main/ Gomez/ and Mulvey is my hypothetical trade for Johan,,,,,,, and I dont think the twins are going to add a Nathan to that mix of players. However quality pitchers are still available after this big trade occurs. What do you think of Morris, or Jennings. I would love to take a chance on one of them without having to give up much.
I would trade Martinez for Snell right now and he compares to Maine. You just can’t find young cheap quality pitching anywhere. I can find an OF.
Well I know you’d prefer Snell, but how would we justify giving up Martinez for him when a hot young pitcher in Jennings is available through free ajency? I just dont see it happening.
ok the wheels are turning. Any thoughts on the Mets giving up the farm for Santana. I mean the hypothetical public trade requst by the twins of Gomez, Martinez, Mulvey, Guerra, Humber. Then when the smoke clears trade Oliver Perez who will cost less to resign to an extension, but is a young rising star to a team for simular minor leauge chips that we sent for Johan? I mean with the lack of availability of hot young starting pitchers out there, we would be in the drivers seat for once and in essence, trade Johan straight up for Oliver Perez. Then as I earlier suggested filling in the rotation and taking a chance on a Jennings who could even have more upside than Pezez and still possess Pelfrey who schieder is suppose to turn into a superstar. Bam!
What is with the annoying Bam? As for Perez, being that pitching is at a premium, would it not be better to keep him? A rotation that is locked around Johan, Maine, Perez, and Pelfrey for years to come is dominant. The prospects that we get for Perez will have to be used to trade for or draft picks to sign a FA pitcher when Jennings breaks down again.
Remember that we will get picks for Delgado , Elduque and Pedro if they leave right? Not to mention that Green will most likely sign with someone this season.
hey with a smirk, how does one consider Bam annoying? I just started posting on this site, and I might not be as knowledgable as some of you day time blogers, however the Bam! gives my identity some spark, but annoying/?com on man.
And now back to the Mets concerning Oliver Perez, loved him a few years ago, but him currrently on the Mets on the cheap is great, and thats when you sell high because at what cost does he sign for long term? Home town discout in doubt and he’s way too inconsistent to pay him modern pitching salary when he could be replaced and we could grab something solid in return now. This makes sense if we get Johan, if not we’ll probably be forced to resign him long term at the expense of the ticket window for years to come.
Maine and Perez aren’t going.
I think Main and Perez are negotiable when it comes a Johan SAntana. Geting a Santana caliber of a superstar is not just a player to take a rotation spot. Its going to take some high level of trickery to pry him away and compete with a Hughs offer which I believe would be would be contered by the sox with an Ellbury/Bucholz offer and ultimately forbid the Yankees from landing Johan. The bottom line is the mets will have to up the anty at the end and its going to take a legitimate package to get concidered for the Johan sweepstakes no matter what public BS coments are circulating about Martinez or Reyes which is an immature request.
No way do the Sox include Ellsbury and Bucholtz. If the Yankee’s include Hughes and Kennedy then he is theirs. The Sox would still have a stronger team and would then go out and get Nathan or Street.
ok maybe not both but Capital WAY for Bucholtz, if the yanks propose a trade centering around Hughs the sox will counter with a trade certering around Bucholtz who is the best youg pitcher in the game, currently more appealing with more upside that Hughs. The yankees dont get Santana,,,,, its the Mets or the red sox, just depends on how far the damn babling steinberner wants to take it,,, if hank shuts the f up now, johan to the mets, if he keeps sipping on corona’s, Santana gos to the red sox.
Bucholtz will never be offered. It will take Hughes just to keep up with Lester AND Ellsbury.
If the yankees offer a package including hughs, the sox will counter with a Bucholtz package just to avoid the yankees landing santana, however, im not sure if the sox want to spend the cash on santana after the crazy over bid on dice K, especially if they dont need Johan, so they might even swing a 3 way and take what we have to offer; mets get Johan plus his contract, red sox get martinez, Guerra, Mulvey, humber, twins get Bucholtz and gomez. through in a dash of red sox #2 prospect somewhere and a splash of twins#3, and thats the receipe, Bam!
The ” new” Yankees are such a loose cannon….if we get Johan, it will be a miracle….we are just being teased…and a month from now we will all wake up and realize oh man…Pedro and his 5/6 innings max is our number one starter…and that Humber never has recovered from his Tommy John surgery…Pelfrey was overrated….Gomez can’t hit a curve ball……..problem is that we wont make the playoffs with the pitching we have….not to mention seriously contend with an AL team if we were, somehow, to make to the World Series because our starting pitching is too weak.. Without a true number #1, how are we going to get by Arizona with Webb and Haren? Pedro and Maine?????? hah.
OMAR, if you are reading….pull the trigger….the longer you wait the greater the chance that crazy Yanks make a deal….if you srew this one up…you may not be around to see how those “prized” prospects turn out…..
Wow………you shouldn’t be on Metsblog….you should be calling the suicide hotline ! I’ve never read a more depressing post in my life !
More depressing? Please….just reiterating the “legit fears” of many Mets fans….All I am trying to do is point out that there are very many risks with trying to hold onto prospects for a team built to win now.
Also, I would like you to point out one part of the post that not a real concern with this team heading into 2008?
Fear of the Yankees trumping us to get the best pitcher in the game the longer we wait?
Arizona has better starting pitching?
Humber and Pelfey have not shown much at major league level?
Gomez can hit a curve ball?
AL elites team have much better staring pitching (e.g. See Boston Redsox)
We are not gng to contend without Mr. Santana. As much as Glavine hated being here…he still gave us 200+ innings every year and is in his 40’s. We Have no starter right now who ever has gone 200+ innings except pedro, who is our number one, who will go 6innings for the most part. year. The mets could still keep Pelfrey and that Kunz kid…and they have 3 first round draft picks i beleive this year….which can wisely be used to restock our farm system. Trade the farm, if thats what the twins want
The key part is your last statement, “If that is what the Twins want” By the farm I am guessing Gomez, Guerra, Mulvey, Humber and Fmart. That may not even be enough based on what the Yankees and Sox do. So at that point do you want to add more?
Plus don’t forget that Perez and Maine should be on pace to increase their innings this season. Maine pitched 191 last year and although he did experience a drop off his arm should be stronger this year. I would expect at least 210 from him this season. Perez had 177 this season through 29 starts, I would expect him to be in the 195-210 range as well. So although that does not “replace” Glavine’s innings it could as a rotation.
Last season the opening rotation gave us 787 innings
This seasons opening rotation baring a substantial injury should give us
Pedro 150+
Maine 210
Perez 200
Elduque 150
Pelfrey 150
That rotation actually gives us 860 innings. Of course the problem with that is what happens if there is a major injury or Pelfrey still sucks.
Hm.. well pitchers and catchers are a month away.. the only FA pitchers left are the likes of Bartolo Colon, Kyle Loshe, and Freddy Garcia..
So yeah.. I would say all our eggs are already in the Santana basket..
But hey.. we’ve got a great defenisve catcher and a super thin outfield!
Good lord I hope you get some medication for that.
For what the truth??
You know Alou isnt going to play 162 games… you know Church can’t hit lefties.. Milledge is gone.. we know Beltran can’t play hurt…. so yeah the OF is thin…
The only good thing anyone can say about Schneider is that he plays good defense..
And there’s no quality arms available via trade or FA other then Santana…
So what would you have said about Loduca? He can’t hit or play defense? Schnieder gets on base more than Loduca, its that not what you want your 8th place hitter to do? Clear the pitcher, its not an RBI spot.
As for Milledge he could not hit RH pitching. .246 BA with .702 OPS. Church’s numbers against LH .254 with .723 OPS. Hey they would have made a good platoon hugh? Yet in our lineup I would take the guy that can hit the RH.
Now on to Beltran playing hurt. He has averaged 150 games a season for the last 7 years and has not played less than 140. I will take that as well.\
The TRUTH is my friend that we are a slightly better team than we were last year. It may not be for the long run but we are better than last year.
Schenider hit .229 in 118 At bats last year against lefties.. yes to me that’s a platoon OF..
LoDuca also has a higher career OBP then Schneider… so maybe check your stats..
I don’t understand how you can aruge that we could use another OF bat on this team.. Alou is going to miss time… teams are going to constantly bring in a lefty to face Church in the 6th/7th inning.. we could certainly use one more strong OF…
The only way this team is better then last is if Duaner and Pedro are 100%. and Delgado rebounds.. it won’t be because of Church and Schneider
Sorry meant Church hit .229 in 118 at bats last year
I still think that Milledge/Church’s stats will be similar THIS year with an edge to Church. Not to mention that he will play better defense and not have clubhouse issues but that’s a different point.
Why look at career averages for Loduca? He is an old catcher, do you really think he will rebound? Besides this will be a moot point if Willie platoons Schneider and Castro, something he could not do with Loduca and Castro.
Also, I know my post are too long but if you had read them you would notice that my first choice for a FA would be Mench who could give Delgado and Church days off against LH>
See we agree on a guy like Mench.. I would much rather him on the bench then Easley..
We disagree on Church and Schneider.. Milledge will only get better.. and those two are gonna stink it up to high heaven…
They will be this year’s Omar bust trade.. much like Bannister and Bell lat year.
No way do I replace Easley. He hit .281 with 10 HR in less than 200 AB’s. I think it will be Gotay that gets sent down. Don’t ask me who plays SS because Gotay or Easley at SS would be horrible either way.
I agree that Milledge over his career will get better but we were talking about this year. As for Schneider I hope he is judged based on his defense, ability to call a good game and get on base at a reasonable rate. He is not a long term solution but neither was Loduca. I could not care at all either way.
If he gets on base at a reasonable rate as you say.. I’ll be OK with it.. it’s awfully hard to judge calling a good game, etc.. and unless he’s gunning base runners down left and right.. Its hard for defense to make headlines too..
I wasn’t a big Lo Duca Fan.. but I thought we could of done a bit better then the Schnide.. plenty of guys play good D.. and aren’t aw woeful with the bat as he is…
I think Omar decided to clear house of some people as well. Get rid of Loduca because of his attitude. Get rid of Milledge because no one seems to want him including his teammates……
I don’t know that these are great decisions but maybe Omar thought that chemistry was a problem last year and that these additions would help that?