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In a report for 
, Ted Berg argues that the Mets should move Mike Pelfrey from the starting rotation to the bullpen, just like the Yankees did with Mariano Rivera, the Astros did with Billy Wagner, the Angels did with Francisco Rodriguez and the Red Sox did with Jonathan Papelbon.
…i agree with ted…i think…but, i assume there is an equally long list, if not longer, of players who were moved from the rotation to the pen and failed miserably…
…that said, in this specific case, i agree with ted that pelfrey may be better suited pitching in short stints from the bullpen, though i do not believe he has the mental make-up to be a closer…
In the end, Berg writes…
“So assuming Pelfrey cannot crack the rotation in Spring Training, the Mets should keep him on the big club and use him out of the bullpen. That way, he’ll be able to cut his teeth at the Major League level, building his confidence and working on his off-speed arsenal.”
During SNY’s Mets Hot Stove, the Star-Ledger’s Dan Graziano had the following to say about Pelfrey…
“I think if we look back at the start he had against the Braves in September…That day he was so good. He wasn’t just, “Oh, this could be a good prospect.” He was ace-of-the-staff, great-fastball good that day…I think that’s a start that you look at if you’re the Mets and get excited…The question is: is the future 2008, or is that another year of development and so the future is 2009 or beyond.”
To watch Graziano’s entire clip, as well as comments from former-GM Jim Duquette, click here.
I dont get why people harp on this guy so much. I think he will be solid this year if he is a starter….he was brought up too early. he struggled. thats it. I think he could easily win 10 games
Nice SNY embed graphic.
I agree with the first comment and would further that by saying that given a chance, i think Pelfrey could win 12-15 games. He’s got the stuff, there’s no question about that. It’s all a matter of him being given the chance to develop the confidence he needs to be an effective and successful major league pitcher.
On the same token, if he does start to develop that confidence in Spring Training (and perhaps even if he does not), and there is no room in the rotation for him (due to a timely trade for Johan!), the Mets would be remiss not to make room for him in the pen. If the rotation is full, I would seriously consider grooming Pelfrey to take over closer duties when Billy Wags is gone, or if he needs a rest in the mid season (which would have helped him last year).
We can likely all agree that he was rushed a bit – All he needs is confidence, and he will be a major league pitcher. And a good one at that.
If they had done this last year.. it wouldn’t of been a demoition… could of kept Bannister, and had Pelfrey in the pen… and then he would be building confidence, instead of loosing it..
Man.. from future #1… to bullpen.. that would be quite a fall.
Still don’t get how this guy in scout’s eyes went from being head and shoulders the best pitcher in the 2006 draft, to a middle reliever in two short-years. The Mets have done themselves no favors by rushing this guy back and forth so much (to justify paying over slot perhaps?) but this guy still has loads of potential. Do I think 2008 is going to be the year for him? ehh…. but I think the Mets could regret shipping him out for next to nothing because a guy like Billy Beane has no interest in acquiring Pelfrey for an impact pitcher like Haren. Let’s not have Lastings Milledge trade value plummet redux.
Yeah.. all comes down to that “slurve” they figured he would find his breaking pitch…
Also didn’t help that it took the mets a year to sign him… between that and the way he was moved up and down like you say… easy to see why it hasn’t come easy..
What does Bill Simmons say, teams need a VP of Common sense? Sounds like the mets could use one…
Pitchers rushed like this kid tend to have this type of beginning to their careers. Be patient with him. He has all of 50 starts between minor leagues and the pros. Only 17 in the pros over 2 years. Way too early to give up on him in my mind.
Costanza asks the question but it is both the question and the answer wrapped up in one. No one goes from can’t miss ace type to the scrap heap middle relief in 2 years time.
He needs development time that is all. Give him a year with the club pitching every 5th day and I can almost guarantee he becomes a productive member of the rotation by the end of this season. With more development and upside to follow.
The challenge is allowing him to develop, while fielding a competitive team in 08.. I mean lets face it.. at a minimum Willie’s job is all but on the line in 2008..
And a 5.57 ERA in 73 IP last year… you can see why they are thinking the pen might be the best way to help him adjust.
Not necessarily, what if best case scenario he turns out to be a Scot Shields type guy and gives us 85+ quality innings from the pen each year.
Obviously he has a long way to go, but guys like that can be invaluable to a team.
Putting him in the bullpen would be totally moronic. His biggest problem is his head. He needs confidence. He’s not the kind of guy you stick in the pen because you rushed him in the first place.
Someone plop him down in front of a giant TV.. and make him watch his start against the Braves last year late in the season over and over and over again.. put the tooth picks in his eye lids to keep them open.. the whole deal…
He was awesome that game…
Yeah he was … He really was.
the only problem with the bullpen idea is when he was bad last year he couldnt even throw a strike with his fastball that could be disasterous for a reliever and could lead to nightmarish innings. i think he should start off in AAA and build his confidence, at this point i think 99% of his problem is mental. of course this would require omar to actually acquire pitchers to replace him in the rotation. this of course doesnt seem likely since omar seems to be pulling a barry zito-type move this offseason.
I could not agree with you more. Moving him to the pen would work if he didn’t have problems throwing strikes in the first inning. It usually takes Pelfrey an inning to settle in.
So Matt, I suggest you go look over some games that Pelfrey threw before suggesting that again.
sorry to change topics, but 2 small moves just happened that i think are worth noting, for 2 reasons
1) jon lieber with the cubs —yet another “veteran arm” off the market (yeah, he’s not much, but if we do need one, they’re starting to vanish)
2) and i think a bigger move, simply because we have to deal with this issue with our own player, is Nate Robertson re-signed an extension with the Tigers.
It seems that these pitchers, whether it be solid mid rotation guys or aces, are resigning with their teams before the open market. I think management should definitely approach Oliver Perez and his people about an extension. I’d hate to see him have an amazing year and his price go up. Everyone’s overpaying for pitchers anyway, so even if he falters this year, regardless he’s probably gonna get 10-12 mil…so if we resign him for that much now, in a few years, if he stays consistent and/or reaches his full potential, he’s a bargain.
Sorry, had to go off on that tangent, im doing LITERALLY nothign here at work
I like Peflrey, but if the Mets throw him into the 5th spot in the rotation, which it seems like they will due to a lack of options, this will be ugly. He needs more development and is simply not Major League ready right now.
On the other hand, that 5th spot is not looking too good right now, who fills it? Sosa? Humber? Mulvey? Pelfrey? I hope this is not a turnstile of bad starters in that spot (like it was last year) and with so much age being relied upon in our pitching staff (Pedro, Duque) emergency starters are going to very improtant. It may not be so crazy to go out and get a Marquis-type player who you know will hover around Steve Trachsel-ish numbers and hope for the best.
I agree
I respectfully do not. I think we are a little over-anxious with Pelfrey. As a fifth starter in this rotation, he will have a chance to learn and develop. We can’t freak out and make a panic move like putting him in the bullpen. While he may never be the #1 guy we as fans dreamed of, he looks like he could be a #3 starter someday soon. Maine, Perez, Pelfrey could constitute a nice core going forward when this team has a legit shot at a ring which might not be this year with the AL so powerful. We should keep him throwing Big League innings if for no other reason that El Duque’s going to need a replacement for at least 10 starts this year.
why not just keep him in the minors and let him work out his mental stuff which has obviously plagued him thus far? Maybe he can develop a new pitch or something but whatever it is, if we keep him in the majors and allow him to get spanked whenever he takes the hill, it will do irreparable damage to his confidence, his value, and his overall pitching ability. This is a young man with a world of talent, perhaps some seasoning and head straightening in the minors would get his head on straight. Who knows, maybe he becomes a poor man’s Justin Verlander?
I still think Pelfrey can be big. I have no problem with moving him to pen if thats the way it works out- but someone has to mention it is NOT a demotion necessarily.
If team hasn’t already, it needs to also explain the Heilman situation (internally) – that Heilman staying in pen is more about his effectiveness there, not necessarily about him not being rotation able.
rivera and f-rod (and gagne) had arm problems before they were shifted to the bullpen full-time. i dont know if papelbon had arm problems before or after he went to the pen, but his move to the pen was only supposed to be temporary until he was dominant — and yes, had arm issues. billy wagner — im not sure if he had injuries before the conversion but from what i remember, his size was always a concern.
the mets will never groom any young starters if they keep moving guys like pelfrey and heilman to the pen before its a last resort.
santana pitched from the pen
Heilman was drafted in the first round of his year by us to be a #1 starter…look where he is now….certainly not at that level, but valuable to the team…while it is disappointing that Pelfrey has not displayed #1 starter charm, I think a move to the bullpen would be smart and reminiscent of Heilman…while neither became what we wanted, if Pelfrey becomes another Heilman we potentially have a much more talented team, due to bullpen improvement (duaner coming back too)
Just the point I was going to bring up. However, to Heilman’s defense, I remember Howe’s coaching staff trying to change his wind-up so that it would “minimize” the stress on his elbow. Safe to say, that was disasterous. At this point, the shine Heilman once had has dulled, yet he is still very valuable to the team. It’s not too far gone a conclusion that Pelfrey can end up replacing Heilman in a similar capacity.
Did Graziano really say “He was ace-of-the-staff, great-fastball good that day…” ? I’m not sure he looked THAT good.
The kid still needs to find a second pitch. Even Nolan Ryan needed a knee-buckling curve to go with his 100-MPH heater. Hopefully he’ll figure out a change-up this spring — in a Mets uniform.
Berg’s idea of the bullpen is OK but his supporting argument isn’t so great. First, there’s the issue of Pelfrey being unable to hold (or even recognize) runners on base. Then there’s the idea he could be a closer, which makes little sense since he doesn’t have the personality and he doesn’t have the stuff. His 97 MPH fastball rarely finds the strike zone and has no movement — his ideal looks to be more in the 92-93 range. In addition, the comparison to Wainwright is groundless — Wainwright had both the legit 97-MPH fastball AND one of the best curveballs in the NL.
If Pelf doesn’t figure out how to change speeds, he likely projects as a middle reliever or possibly setup — down the road, not this year. I’m not sure how working in the bullpen would be an “easier role” (per Berg). Either he makes the team as a starter, or he should go down to AAA and work on the secondary pitches.
Pelfrey actually WAS that good in that start in Atlanta…
He looked incredible good…
he was dominating. his slider made chipper and mccann look foolish. And he was throwing 95+ mph gas with his four seamer up in the zone. They couldn’t catch up with that. He has the potential and stuff to be the ace of the staff. He needs more experience to gain confidence in himself and his stuff.
If you go to Mets.com and look at video of him there you can see how dominating he was that day. That is what he could potentially be.
I’m not quite ready to give up on Pelfrey as a starter just yet. If there’s no room for him in the starting 5 (which is unlikely given how El Duque will be in it one way or another), then I have no problem putting him in the pen to start the year.
But he’s far too talented to give up on this early. Alot of talented young pitchers struggle their first year or two as starters before hitting their stride. Dan Haren put up ERAs of 5.08 and 4.50 in his first 2 cracks at starting. John Smoltz had a 5.48 ERA his first time around. Greg Maddux put up a 5.61 in his first full year.
I won’t assess his mental makeup until the guy is given a full year as a starter, and a chance to start big games for this team.
Right now, he’s still a 20 something kid with a rocket arm. Don’t give up on him just yet.
Tom Glavine was AWFUL his first 2 seasons
Did we trade for a viable starter? Because until we do, I don’t understand why the Mets wouldn’t want to see if Pelfrey can make the rotation before shipping him off to the pen. The rotation is currently underwhelming as is:
1. Pedro (who knows how long he lasts?)
2. Maine
3. Perez
4. El Duque (65 years old?)
5. ?
This team is in HUGE trouble right now. They can’t start the season with this rotation. I’m starting to worry.
And, yes, I know, the first three weeks of the season, you only need four starters. But, what happens from May to October?
S Pedro has one injury and already we’re questioning his durability? One injury, people – there is no reason to believe that he won’t go a full season.
And Pedro, Maine and Perez are a formidable 1-2-3.
I want Santana too, but I don’t think we’re in huge trouble.
Even if “Pelfrey to the pen” is a good idea (and that’s irrelevant, but for the record, I think he would probably do well there), I don’t see how the Mets can do it. They just don’t have the luxury with the way this pitching staff is built.
If you truly think it’s likely that both John Maine and Oliver Perez will duplicate their 2007 seasons, you’re out of your freaking mind. That assumes that (a) both pitchers stay healthy, and (b) that both pitchers really are as good as they looked last year. I don’t think any rational observer would bet on them giving you 30 wins and 375 innings with ERA’s in the 3’s this time around.
Add to that the fact that you have no clue what you’re getting out of Pedro or Duque (I’ll give you a hint what you’re getting though – lots and lots of time on the DL) and that all adds up to one conclusion:
You have to have Pelfrey work as a starter this season, and you have to pray that he is up to it. You need innings and starts from someone.
By the way, I’d like to mention what a bang-up job the Mets have done this offseason. Really. It’s just awe-inspiring.
Putting someone in the Pen to develop is in now way a demotion. This isn’t the 80’s when middle relievers were seen as starters that couldn’t make it.
Some guys just thrive in these situations because they don’t have to manage (i.e. pace) themselves over 6-7 innings. Jorge Sosa made a great point about enjoying life out of the pen, when he said “it lets me hang it all out there” or something like that.
I personally think Pelfrey should be in the Pen, he clearly doesn’t have enough major league pitches, and for all the comments about how well he did in one game against the braves… one game does not a trend make. Anyone can go out there and pitch lights out for a game or two, look at Jeff Weaver.
Even Heilman threw a one-hitter against the Marlins back in 2005.
That’s right, and the following week he faced the marlins again…and got crushed.
Just goes to show you what happens when team start to get a book on pitchers.
To Heilman’s defense, Howe’s coaching staff nearly ruined this kid, trying to change his 3/4 wind-up to an over the top wind up. They felt it would reduce the stress on his elbow. Probably cost him two years of progress.
the mets just dont develop pitchers well…heilman didnt lose a game at notre dame…hes a bullpen man…humber was the 3rd pick in the entire draft and I havent heard anything of him in a few months and doubt if i do itll be significant, and this from a kid who blew away competition at rice…and lastly pelfrey, i mean the guys 6′7 and throw 97mph any team other then use could develop the kid into a decent starter
Pelfrey doesn’t have Rivera’s, wagner’s, F-rods stuff
Have you watched him pitch, when he’s on? His stuff is just as good as any of those guys. The problem is entirely in his head.
Does anybody here realize that moving him to the Pen is not even really an option. We have like 10 guys for 7 spots as it stands right now. Most of which are on Major league deals
1.Wagner
2.heilman
3. sanchez
4. show
5. wise
6. sosa
7. feliciano
8. register
9. stokes
and a few other guys who will be competing for spots in ST
First off, there is no guarantee that Sanchez is ready when we want him to be,
Second, neither Stokes nor Register are guaranteed spots.
Third, who is this Show character? Whoever he is, I can’t imagine he’s guaranteed a spot.
I think Sosa will have to prove himself to get a spot.
And don’t forget Joe Smith (and others) will be in competition as well.
Twice in their history, the Mets had a nice run where they were the primo starting pitching organization on the planet as far as drafting, developing and ultimately delivering a finished product on the MLB level.
Everyone Mets fan of every decade and generation has been indoctrinated with the “dominant pitching first” mantra, and we’ve all been brainwashed with “Shea is a pitcher’s park.”
But since Wilpon took over the Mets, it’s been a disaster as far as drafting, developing and delivering (anyone, but especially pitchers). I can’t think of a single Mets blue chip starting arm that hasn’t broken off or been given up on and shipped out too early in the past 25 years (except Bobby Jones whose back broke down in a few years anyway).
The Mets were starting to target Kazmir as a reliever (ironically also using Billy Wagner as the example to follow) before shipping him out. They may or may not be thinking of doing the same with Pelfrey. Maybe they are, but I’d love to see him let go and allowed to gun it as a fastball first starter first, then make adjustments off that. Certainly making him a mouthguard gnashing off-speed groundball pitcher has only been an experiment in strangeness.
it is an interesting factor that the Mets developled both Heilman and Isringhausen who are two of the better relievers in the game, maybe that somehow factors into thier thinking.
either way it makes less and less sense for Pelfrey to be moved to the pen as Lieber and others sign elsewhere. Eventually there will be no options but to go with Pelfrey as the 5th starter.
Pelfrey had a great game last year in Septemberf but he STUNK in most of the rest of his starts. Everyone has to decide if the Mets can afford his “development” next year in the 5 spot. That would mean :Pedro; Main; Oliver; El Duque and Pelfry. The same thing will happen that happened last year. The kid has to learn a good change up and be able to throw it for strikes. Tough to do that when you are in a New York pennant race. The bull pen would be good with daily supervision on the change up development but another year in Triple A would be better.
Of course it would be even better if ElDuque was the #5 with Santana as the #one.
I know “give it up” you will say. If we have to lose Santana, then lets not piss away any more money on a Louse and go with these wonderful prospects that we have to patiently develop in the middle of a New York “booing” pennant race. Tough to develop when you are being booed. The veatrans can handle it, not the kids. I felt real bad for Smith last year. He was fantastic in the first half last year and looked shell shocked by the end of the year. If Willie over exposes Pelfry next year out of the pen without a good changeup …….jits going to be ugly.
Tough decisions……..Damn the Twinkies.
Please lets not forget that with the state of pitching as it currently is in baseball, a good middle reliever is a very valuable commodity. How many are there that are consistently successful? The Mets have two that have been very good in that role – Heilman and Feliciano. It only helps to have more, and if Pelfrey doesn’t make it as a starter but winds up in the pen, lets not call it a complete disappointment.
I have been saying this from the day Pelf first came up. His stuff *screams* bullpen. He doesn’t have a good “2″ pitch, but he has a great sinking fastball. The Mets were lucky to snag Wagner off the FA market and even at that, he has an awful habit of getting a “dead arm” in late Aug/early Sept of *every* single year.
We need to start grooming a successor. Pelf would be a perfect fit. Imagine if we had a great closer, entering his prime?? It’s been years since we had a plus closer who wasn’t in the decline of his career.