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Last week in the Star-Tribune, citing ‘people with knowledge of the discussions,’ Joe Christensen wrote that the Twins have told the Mets they can have Johan Santana if they add OF Fernando Martinez to their current offer of OF Carlos Gomez and RHPs Deolis Guerra, Kevin Mulvey and Phil Humber.
For what it’s worth, the following day in a poll for MetsBlog.com, when asked if the Mets should trade these five prospects for Santana, and sign him to a long-term deal, 78 percent said, “Yes.”
Today in Newsday, Ken Davidoff writes that Martinez could be ‘the key’ to acquiring Santana.
According to Davidoff, citing ‘an industry official familiar with Minnesota’s trade discussions,’ the Mets could have a deal if Martinez is included, assuming he is packaged with Gomez, Guerra, Humber and Mulvey.
…it’s like deja-vu all over again…i mean, what are the odds that davidoff and christensen are talking to the same guy…if you recall, the buzz in new york following christensen’s report was that it had essentially been aimed directly at the Bronx, in hopes that it would motivate the Yankees to get involved again…so, i’m thinking this is a second round of ammo…hopefully, it’s also the last…
Because, Davidoff also writes, “The Yankees appear set to move forward without the two-time Cy Young Award winner.”
…i’ll be honest, i catch buzz from all sorts of people, some who believe the Yankees are still in this, others who think they’ve moved on, others who think they’re interested only to the extent that the Red Sox are interested, and others who think they’re mounting a new proposal different from the Phil-Hughes centered package we have heard so much about since December…
…point is, i don’t trust them…i don’t trust the people who are filling my head with information i never report, and i don’t trust the Yankees…as far as i am concerned, i assume the worse, because, as a Mets fan, that is my nature when it comes to the Bronx…so, tell me they’re in it, tell me they’re out, i don’t care…as far as i am concerned, they’re only irrelevant when this story has reached a conclusion, which i certainly hope is sooner than later…
By the way, if you’re interested, at MetsGeek, Steve Hubbell and John Peterson do a ‘Point-Counterpoint” post regarding Santana, and whether the Mets should or should not acquire him.
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no brainer. santana is the best pitcher on the planet. trade fmart. i watched him play in bingo, and was underwhelmed (but he is young, whatever). however, i would prefer to keep geurra, who has gooden-like skils.
binghamton = bingo
throw in fmart and heilman and ask for nathan back also.
Aw heck, we should just swap teams at this point. They can be the Minnesota Mets and we’ll have the New York Twins.
I can be a reporter too.
According to an inside Yankee source who asked to remain nameless,
Our offer of Hughes, Marquez, and Cabrera still remains on the table. That is the best offer and the Twins would be stupid to take any other offer, especially the offer from the Red Sox. Hughes is destined for Yankee immortality so we really don’t want to trade him but we also don’t want the Red Sox to get any better because we can’t beat them as is. We want the Mets to get him because then we can just play the media by telling them that Santana is really not that good and we never really wanted him to begin with. I mean really how good can he be if they traded him for Gomes and Goerra and all the other shitty prospects from the Mets… I mean really the Mets.. Ha ha ha.. What a joke they are … Anyway if Santana was really that good he would be here with us the Yankees the greatest team in the History of teams.. 26.. ring a bell?.. 26 do you know what that means? Rings baby that’s right Rings.. Got Rings??? I did not think so. Mets please.. Santana he is going to blow his arm out putting on the Mets jersey at the news conference… His arm and asshole would turn to gold just by touching the plaques of The Babe and Joey D. We don’t want him anyways.. unless we get him and then he’ll be great.. You know what I mean.. hey.. We are the Yankees…
In other other news… Hank says that they never even put Hughes in an offer for Johan Santana.
zzz…
Omar HAS to make this offer. Get this done, it’s needed in the worst way, for all the reasons we’ve been talking about for the last couple of months.
DO IT!
I finally moved around and started reading some of the other blogs and sites located on the left and right of our comment screen here. Went to Metsgeek which had a good read on Santana vs staying with the youth movement. Both were well presented arguments.
I have to say…though I am in the camp of believing Santana has already peaked in his career and is slowly receding to being just very very good and not the best pitcher in the game…. the article did help me see the value of his acquisition. Mainly, the guy in favor of keeping him suggesting that in some way Santana saves us future dollars regardless of how much he signs for. Mets will not populate 3/5ths of their rotation in the coming years from their system regardless of how good we or I think the prospects are (Guerra, Mulvey, Humber, Pelfrey, etc). By signing Santana, we forgo having to sign some of the future scrubs like Lohse and Garcia and Livan to populate the future rotation. 1 Santana is better than all 3 of those guys combined anyway. It was an interesting angle and probably has some truth to it.
I am sure I am not in favor of dealing both Gomez and Fmart in the same deal and I think throwing in Guerra does almost nothing to help our chances of getting this deal done so I would pull him out. But I would consider giving up Heilman and or Rustich and Smith and Kunz (not all 3 but some combo of those young guys) to make this deal happen. I would also throw in a Gotay or another positional prospect other than gem outfielders.
include fmart, remove guerra, then do it.
In total agreement…I’ve been saying this from the beginning. Trade F-Mart and Gomez but try to hold on to the pitchers, even if they are not as highly regarded.
An email i sent to Matt last week:
I am actually quite shocked that people have such a hang up when offering F-Mart with Gomez, but are more than willing to toss in Guerra without hesitation. Presently, F-Mart would be ranked as 1 and Guerra 1A prospect in terms of ceiling, but when you include the “ease of replacement” factor its not even close. Guerra has tons more value to the Mets than F-Mart. Just this season alone the Mets could have had their choice of T. Hunter, A. Jones, and A. Rowand which is a fair comparison for the level of OF F-Mart is projected to be (maybe even giving him too much credit). Show me who the Mets could have signed to replace Guerra, a projected #1/2 starter. NOBODY!
I don’t even flinch when offering both F-Mart and Gomez, but you would have to pry Guerra out of my dead hands to get him.
It’s true, Guerra is a 6′5 young pitcher with tons of potential. He has the build to be great, and the stuff, we just need to wait and see if he has the talent to put it all together.
For a guy whose pitched 170 innings his entire life, still can’t throw an average curve ball, and is probably 3-4 years away from the majors… yeah.. you can have him…
Johan will have bout 2 more Cy Youngs on his shelf by the time Guerra is anything close to ML ready..
he hasn’t even thrown a 100 innings in a single season yet!
I liked the article, although I would probably side with Peterson if required to pick one.
The concept that I think was glossed over (it was mentioned early on as what you can do with a prospect) was trading them in the future.
They seemed to be using the logic that, since the 3 pitchers wouldn’t be in the rotation for the Mets together, trade them all for Santana. But, even if the Mets didn’t play them all, they could be used to fill holes in the future via trades.
And before I get flamed (again!), I am not saying that the Mets shouldn’t get Santana, just that you have to be careful how much talent is given up.
I personally think Guerra is someone that they should hold onto (for valid worth now vs. future “upside potential”), so if F mart goes in, he comes out.
More realistically, this deal would be Gomez and Mulvey, + 2/3 other prospects that were not Guerra or martinez.
I agree. While both F-Mart and Guerra are young and somewhat raw, they are oozing with potential. These are the types of players you want to see through and give a chance – the risk equals the reward. If Guerra and F-Mart have a good year in the minors next year, their trade value goes up significantly, and we’ll need that trade value to get a decent 1B, catcher, or OF.
As for Mulvey/Humber, we know what they are capable of – Mulvey is slated as a 3, and Humber, unless he shows significant improvement this year, is a 4-5.
I really don’t want to include Martinez in a deal for Santana, but if we must, I wonder why we have not heard any discussions of the Mets asking for another player along with Santana if they are going to trade Martinez as well?
I would do the deal if the Mets could get a decent player in addition to Santana. New York native Joe Nathan would be a pipe dream (unless they throw in Gotay and probably Pelfrey as well), but what about any one of the following:
MIchael Cuddyer
Delmon Young
I mean, come on Omar and Smith — Get creative.
As much as I would love to get either of those players, Minnesota won’t be trading them in this deal. Cuddyer is a former 1st round pick who is finally coming into his own, and Young cost them one of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball (Garza). If we could somehow pull Nathan into the deal I’d be thrill, but he’d probably cost even more.
I’m suprised that Minnesota has no interest in Gotay being that they have no 2B right now after trading Castillo. While he isn’t a star, he’s still very servicable (outside of his defense).
They gave up Garza for Delmon Young.. he’s not coming here… there could certainly be some wiggle room for a counter offer though..
The problem is.. the Twins see Gomez, F-mart, and Guerra as the keys to the deal because their ceilings are high.. but to get something immediate in return, they also want guys like Mulvey and Humber..
I would think Gotay could be worked in the deal as well as others have stated.
I was beating the Gotay drum in the past too. If the Twins want a ML ready young guy, he’s the most experienced name mentioned in the talks with any team.
If Johan does come to the mets, I would be shocked if it was the deal (G,G, M and H, with or without the 2nd M) always mentioned. The core might be the same (gomez and Mulvey), but I bet the other pieces could end up shuffling around, and maybe something more coming back.
So, maybe Smith asks for the big 5, Omar says no way, but starts throwoing out other options, etc.
And who knows what players Smith really wants.
Gomez, Mulvey, Humber and Gotay (and if needed, another tier B prospect) is a legitimate package. Especially for a team with serious offense issues!
These aren’t really far away prospects. All 4 could play in the majors this year (3 already have) and contribute now for the Twins, and they still have the future star (Gomez), although he might have some growing pains this year!
Gotay could probably take over right away at 3B and be a major upgrade, or just get him a D tutor and let him grow into 2B.
Anyway, assuming that Reyes or DW isn’t included (duh, I know!), if Omar can pull off a trade for Johan and still have Pelfrey, Martinez and Guerra in the system, then anyone else can go.
I’d be surprised (and extremely pleased) if Omar managed to keep both Martinez AND Guerra in the Mets system in trading for Santana. I suspect one or both of them would need to be included in the package.
Lets offer Minnesota Gotay, Pagan and Wise and keep our fingers crossed. Then when the Twins trade Johan to the Yankees and F-Mart and Guerra and Mulvey do not pan out lets kill Omar for not doing the deal.
Matt Cerrone….
I noticed you policed this thread and cut out things that veered off of baseball. I don’t like it. Humor is an integral part of what seperates an interactive blog from things like picking up a newspaper and reading it. Please try to let us all know what your plan is for this site. If you are going to be spending time policing clean posts that veer away from all mets all the time…then I’d like to know since I can post my vanilla baseball comments and move on to having an actual discourse on other sites if necessary
oddly, my original comment was removed too, and it focused on this particular trade. I don’t think I said anything offensive either other than the Mets shouldn’t trade both F-Mart and Gomez.
Perhaps it was a technical glitch?
C’mon, who wants to hear about dating someones sister or some other goofy non Mets humor on a METS site.
I/m sure Matts questionaire a while back had a large majority of those answering saying that they wanted to talk about the Mets on the site not other stuff. There are chat rooms for the other stuff.
Besides we have to stay focused on the Santana deal.
all i can say is go gowrightgo. Please go to another site with your little bs.
up yours DJ
Is anyone listening??? The deal is back again because the Twins NEED FMart in the deal if they are to take a PROSPECTS ONLY deal instead of the Yankees or Red Sox deals that had some major league ready players in them. Stop farting around with adding in Gotay who no one wants in a deal for the BEST pitcher in baseball.
Lets do the deal NOW.
I really don’t think it’s as simple as that. Everyone wants to trade 4, 5, 6 or whatever number of prospects for Santana. They have no track record and no expected impact on the 2008 Mets so what do fans care — trade ‘em!
But that’s shortsighted and it oversimplifies a complex dillema. Sure there is no guarantee with any of the prospects, but although Santana has an unbelievable track record, he IS a pitcher. And he’s a pitcher that didn’t quite perform as well as he had in the past during the last part of 2007. What does it mean? It might mean nothing. Or it might mean that all the innings he’s thrown in the AL — where they never remove pitchers — is taking a toll on his arm. And anyone who gets him — in a deal like this — will be getting him for a minimum of 6 years, including 2008.
So you have to look at it from all angles. If Santana goes into so steady, if slow decline, or God forbid suffers a major injury, AND If just ONE of the Mets prospects — say Martinez — turns out to be a star player, then the deal isn’t such a no-brainer from the Mets side.
And it’s NOT only specific prospects. Volume — as we see here — can be important. Giving up 5 or more prospects may prevent the Mets from making other, lesser, but still important deals, in the future — and not 2 years from now, but maybe only 6 months from now at the trade deadline!
Again, people shouldn’t flippantly dismiss the prospects as mere garbage to be tossed away for guaranteed gold. If it truly WERE that simply, Santana would be wearing Blue and Orange now and posing for pictures in front of Citi Field.
If the Mets are to do this, they need to negotiate a package they can live with — that doesn’t include ALL their top prospects — AND, if they must include both Gomez, and Martinez along with Mulvey and Guerra, they MUST get an additional player that has decent value — even if they have to add an additional player to their offer.
Some of you guys with these offers are hysterical. YOU HAVE TO GIVE SOMETHING TO GET SOMETHING.
Please stop with these we will put F-Mart in and take out Guerra. That makes it a worse deal.
Stop thinking this deal gets done with just Gomez, Mulvey, Humber and Gotay, that is almost a slap in the face.
Ruben Gotay is NOT something you can trade to get any value for. AT BEST he is a throw in or a player to be named later.
If he had the value that people are saying he has then he would be the starting 2b for the Mets and they wouldn’t have signed Castillo.
BTW Gotay has about half a season of MLB experience stop saying he is experienced. Most of his half a season was from the bench.
stop hyperventilating
I agree with you. You don’t sound like you are hyperventilating. You sound wise and even tempered.
give them f mart and pull one of the pitchers backs…guerra or mulvey..just get this trade done already. OF’s are SO easy to replace thru free agency, left handed cy young award winning pitchers who will strike out 200k + in the NL are not. remember gregg jefferies!
The twin’s would not include Nathan in a trade just to get the 5 prospects. Do you realize Nathan is one of the top 5 relief pitchers in the AL if not all of baseball. Also in the MN Twins pitching strategy the starters rarely throw over 110-120 pitches per game (an earlier comment stated that the AL wears out their pitchers inning’s wise). When you factor in the twin’s were out of the playoffs early last year, they were looking at other players and were not giving the run support to Johan otherwise I believe he would have won at least 17-18 games. I respect the Met’s fans but thought I would just try and set the recoed straight (I’d love to see a Met’s-Twin’s World series someday).
Yeah, let’s give them the farm, the future and the keys to the city
for a pitcher who’s going to come here and win 15 games a year
for 2 years and go downhill from there. Whatever.
Exactly – that is too much considering the Mets are competing with themselves at this point. If the Red Sox or Yankees were really interested in Santana, the deal would have been done by now. And, as Matt as mentioned several times, the Red Sox seem interested only if the Yankees are and vice-versa.
I commend Omar on the way he’s played his hand up until this point. Let’s hope he keeps his nerve and doesn’t cave to the Twins demands. Either F-Mart OR Gomez plus pitching should be enough at this stage.
Otherwise, sit tight and wait for free agency.
You know, Doc Gooden was drafted specifically for his Bingo skills. Which then shows us a valuable lesson. Don’t draft bingo players – they’ll all eventually become coke addicts.
Thats funny. That’s what John Franco said about the Kazmir trade.
Is is one of the the more well informed and insightful thread I have seen on this blog.