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In the Star-Tribune, columnist Sid Hartman writes that, while the Yankees and Mets have ruled out signing Johan Santana to a seven-year deal if he’s traded, there is still hope that the Twins could work out an extension of their own.
However, in a different report for the Star-
Tribune, citing a ‘Twins official,’ La Velle E Neal III writes that there have been no recent contract talks between the Twins and Santana.
Neal explains that the Twins are hesitant to trade Santana for what they perceive to be 20 cents on the dollar, adding…
“Peter Greenberg, Santana’s agent, admitted during a telephone conversation this week that he will need to discuss strategy with Santana soon on how to handle things if he is forced to report to camp with the Twins…What Greenberg wouldn’t address is if Santana will refuse to waive his no-trade clause once he reports, but that possibility surely exists. It’s unclear if the Twins have been told that yet - but it appears that they have stepped up their efforts to make a deal happen before camp begins.”
…which is exactly what i mean when i write that santana is in the diver’s seat, to some extent…as i have said before, from what i can gather out of people connected to santana, he prefers to play for the Mets, then for the Red Sox, then for the Yankees…
…the thing is, just how much is he willing to shake minnesota’s cage to make a deal go down…this quote from greenberg suggests we may soon find out…
Neal breaks down what Minnesota can expect to get from the Red Sox and Yankees, while the Mets and Twins have talked about adding another player to the deal, “such as Aaron Heilman.”
In yesterday’s Boston Herald, citing ‘indications,’ Michael Silverman wrote that Ryan Church could be included in a potential deal as well.
By the way, according to Hartman, “The Mets never have given a player more than a five-year contract, and they would be averse to changing that policy.”
…ummm, the Mets signed Carlos Beltran and Mike Piazza to seven-year deals, plus signed a six-year pact with David Wright…i’m guessing that hartman meant to peg that to only pitchers…which would be correct…
…as i have said, the sense i get is that the Mets are against giving more than a five-year deal to any pitcher, as are the Yankees, mostly because of insurance issues…the thing is, when santana says seven years, what are we talking about…i mean, he’s under contract next season, if he is then given five and an option, plus a signing bonus, that could be the seven-year deal he is seeking…i wonder if that is good enough…
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I can understand why they’re requesting Heilman if they also intend to move Nathan.
Um, because Heilman’s only going to cost about $4-5 million for the next three seasons. Nathan will probably make more than twice that per season on average for the next three years.
If you read the two columns, Neal’s seems to have more actual info, while Hartman’s is almost totally speculative.
Also, didn’t Wilpon say he’d be okay with a six-year deal?
Some days I feel confident that a deal is going to happen. Some days not so much. Today, I’m not feeling good about it. Yesterday I did.
I hope after this whole ordeal is over and the dust settles, there will be reporters who leak which packages the Twins were willing to accept and how negotiating with FO of those respective teams went down. Then I can crucify the Wilpons for teasing Mets fans…AGAIN.
This is great.. yesterday wer’e Ryan Church away and Omar is a genius…
And today our proposals are considered “.20″ on the dollar.. and eve in they weren’t we don’t agree to Santana’s deamnds.
Wake me when this over…
“Wake me when this is over” I could not agree more! I’m really sick of all the rumors and speculation with this whole Santana Saga, until this situation is resolved I don’t even want to see his name anymore. After last years collapse, if we don’t end up getting this guy after being tortured throughout this entire long, drawn out process, Mets fans will be crushed.
It’s like a really bad reality show.
Is there a good reality show? :-)
Haha … I don’t know … I don’t watch any of them.
top chef!
That new Moment of Truth Game show.. while paiiiinfully slow.. and waaaaaaaaay over edited.. is pretty tough to watch….
The first guy had to admit to not loving his wife enough to have kids, to doing something that would cause his wife not to trust him.. and he got no money, because he lied about touching a female client (he’s a personal trainer) more then was required for his job…
rock of love bret michaels and the pick up artist…..anyway, enough is enough already. i wish it was just time for northfork pregame live at this point so we know who is pitching that first game.
man, you said it. The best thing about the superbowl (most years, anyway) is that it means baseball’s almost here.
The 20 cents on the dollar comment isn’t a direct shot at the Mets, but a shot at the fact that the best pitcher in baseball, if traded, is only gonna bring back prospects and maybe a ML-ready player or two. Regardless of which deal they take (if they trade him), they’re not getting equal value.
Ageed.. but it’s such a sharp contrast to the other countless articles on here how the Twins may realize the Mets offer could be great long term, etc…
It’s just so ridiculous.. I’m starting to hate myself for taking any of this information to heart.
You and me both :-)
Depends how you define value. Strictly in terms of talent and ability, sure, they’re getting .20 on the dollar. But that’s ignoring some crucial facts. First, the Twins only have one year of Santana to sell. The going rate for rentals, even stud rentals, IS prospects. Regardless of what he does with his new team, this, is the commodity the Twins are selling. Of course, the rental includes the exclusive right to negotiate with the player, but this brings us to the second fact, that due to Santana’s no trade clause, the acquiring team will essentially be forced to offer him one of the riskiest contracts in sports history.
the thing about contracts is very simple.
either a player can have security, or money, not both. Does Johan want the 7 years more, or the 140 million more? Personally I think it’s the tottaly package. So you split the baby. Instead of 7×20, you make it 5×22 etc.
Everything is negotiable. It’s all about finding the right balance.
Five for $22 million is fair. Omar could could sweeten the deal by throwing in a 6th year option at $25 million and a $10 million signing bonus adds up to the $140 + million Santana is looking for.
I heard Minaya in an interview say that the 5 year limitation was not ironclad. That they might break that rule for special players. Of course Johan is special. He said that at least months ago and he was speaking hypothetically. But I’ll be shocked if Johan insists on at least 6 guaranteed years in an extension and they don’t give it to him. Not an option year, but 6 fully guaranteed years. If they let a deal fall through over 1 guaranteed year, they will be skewered by fans like me.
Also, I think Sid Hartman is just writing as a homer. I doubt Johan even wants to be with Minny anymore long term. Too many negative things have happened — like their lowball offer to him last spring and their paring of the roster mid-season even though they were still competitive. I think he wants out of there and has already made that decision in his mind.
Wow. can you imagine getting santana and livan for starting rotation and orlando to the pen????
omar, that settles everythinggggg! you go and do that, and an offseason of sht turns into gold.
I wouldn’t bet too much that Duque would be any good out of the pen. Especially as a short man that works many days in a row.
Now, maybe as a long man spot starter?
I think they are better off keeping him in the rotation and getting everything they can out of him before he breaks.
I agree with this thinking, but it brings up an interesting question. How do the Mets resolve their rotation if they do wind up with Livan AND Santana? It seems like either someone has to go to the bullpen or someone has to be traded. I can’t fathom doing anything with Pedro or Maine, and if Livan’s deal is big enough he won’t be moved to the pen. That rules those three out. That means the options are:
1. Move Duque to the pen. Probably unwise since he seems to exist on “Duque” time when he warms up for starts (another note, you’re four years younger than you actually are when on Duque time)
2. Trade Duque for a marginal return. A small market team that thinks they can contend but is short on starters might take a flyer on him.
3. Move Oliver Perez to the bullpen. Seems like the most unlikely situation, since the Mets already have three lefties in the pen, and its hard to imagine how Perez might react to a demotion after a strong season.
4. Trade Oliver Perez . Sounds crazy, but it might be a viable option if it doesn’t look like he’s going to sign an extension. You could even begin whispering the possibility once Santana is hypothetically acquired. Figure out what you can get, and make the decision whether to go this route before the draft. If you do, snag a good prospect or two and draft with what you’re getting here in mind. This only really works though if you have Mike Pelfrey or someone else looking like they could slide into the rotation should El Duque or Pedro falter. And obviously, I’d much rather extend him if possible.
This has to be a move forward. We have stopped talking about who would be involved in a trade to the contract extension which is has to be agreed BEFORE any trade. There is no point giving up 4 prospects if Santana walks away after a year.
I just feel there must have been covert talks between the Mets and Santana. Just like those between Omar and Cabrera last season. Omar knew Cabrera was going to be traded in the off season and sounded him out.
Thats the only explanation of Omar’s relaxed attitude. He knows IF Santana is traded, the only team in it is the Mets.
hi fan from the UK….maybe across the pond you didn’t know, but teh way a trade goes through is with like a 72 hour window to talk about extension, if one isn’t agreed to, it falls apart..so actually, players need to be discussed first..
thanks for playin!
which cabrera are you referring to?
mrose what I was trying to suggest was that Santana has to know what the contract offers are going to be from the 3 clubs he could move to before the trade is made. Obviously that would give the clubs negotiating for Santana an advantage over Minnesota. And I believe it would be an illegal approach (correct me if I am wrong!).
The Cabrera I am talking about is Miguel Cabrera. And the Omar/Cabrera incident in May 2007. The famous 10 minute chat!
i’m still not following….
It would be tampering i’d imagine if omar has already said to Johan, we’ll give you x years at x dollars…
Maybe he can tell the agent “we’ll be ok with salary”…
Santana is going to wave his no trade clause first for the trade to be even to the point of negotiating…so we know he is ok w/ Boston, Yanks and the Mets…
he waives the clause if a deal is made player wise…and then part of that deal is the 72 hour window…at which point, if a contract is done, deal is done..other wise nada
An agent can’t discuss any potentional contract with another team’s player unless they’ve been given permission by the team who own’s that players contract. I doubt there has been any negotiation at all between Omar and Greenberg at this point. There would be no reason why the Twins would permit the Mets to negotiate anything with Santana.
Those negotiations wouldn’t begin until a trade package has been agreed to. At that point the Mets would ask for permission from the Twins for a 72 hour window to negotiate with Santana and his representative. If a contract is agreed to, then there would be a physical as well as Selig signing off to the transaction.
It’s a long and complicated process and we probably won’t know about the acquisition until the trade is agreed to by the Twins and terms of the contract agreed to by Santana.
Now what if Omar had an informal chat with Santana (rather than his representative) of the form would 22 over 6 years be what you are looking for? or your caliber pitcher is looking for?
And Santana said yes.
I am sure that would be illegal but it would put a suggestion in Santana’s mind of the kind of ofter he would expect from the Mets. Enough I assume to take any Minnesota renegotiation out of the picture. Thats why I assume all parties already know the kind of offers they would expect if a trade was made.
Wow… La Velle E Neal III, that is quite a name
Church, Heilman, FMart/Gomez, Mulvey/Humber/Pelfrey?
Does that sound about right, right now?
What if the Livan signing is to free up Maine?
Maine, Church/Gomez, Heilman, Humber?
If that’s the case, then f***ing shoot me. Repeatedly. In the skull. And then in the balls.
Maine cannot be traded, under any circumstances. Omar hasn’t verbalized that, but I don’t think he intends to trade Maine or Perez, after an off-season spent touting how great they are.
Anyway, If Maine is gone, and Livan and Johan are brought in, that’s not a serious upgrade.
I agree that I don’t want Maine traded but how is that not a serious upgrade?
If Santana+Livan does not give you more wins than Maine+Pelfrey?
It’s an upgrade, but not a serious one. Santana is an upgrade over Maine (lets not overestimate how much of upgrade, though), and in my mind there is no doubt that Livan will be outperformed by Pelfrey this year.
You have no doubt that Pelfrey will out perform Livan? You should go to Vegas. Besides Pelfrey would still be here anyway.
Has anyone notice that all the smoke has come out of Minnesota and the NY media has barely said a word about a Santana deal. With the NY media always looking for a scoop I think they would be reporting on this if a deal was actually close. I think we should all calm down. Nothing much is really going to happen until after the Super Bowl.
True, but I think the Minnesota papers would have better idea of the Twins’ thinking, and better access to sources in their FO, too.
I think there’s about a 50/50 chance that this is resolved before the Super Bowl.
What i think is going on is one reporter favors a deal with the Mets while the other is in denial and trying to persuade Minny to keep Santana.
Big Lou says: “What i think is going on is one reporter favors a deal with the Mets while the other is in denial and trying to persuade Minny to keep Santana.”
That has just got to be the most astute and right on thing I’ve read about this trade since the winter meetings. I don’t think I’ve read one thing that I would consider factual from any reporter so far. It all smells of opinion passed of as fact and the so called “insiders with knowledge of the situation” are probably nothing more then other sports people who agree with whatever that reporter is saying.
So far, every deal that the Twins have actually done have caught me completely off guard, but at the same time, once they happened, they made perfect sense. I never say the Garza/Young trade coming - but it made perfect sense for both teams. Never saw Everett or Lamb. And today the Twins extend Morneau and Cuddyer. Everything I read said neither player was going to get an extension this year. I never saw any of it coming and yet it all made perfect sense for the Twins.
I have a sneaky suspicion that a Santana deal is very close and will be just as much of a surprise when it’s announced.
I’m starting to wonder if M. Night Shyamalan is the one running things.
Kudos to Big Lou!!
Does anybody remember thinking about Lastings the way they now do about F Mart?
Santana is under contract in 09?
“…the thing is, when santana says seven years, what are we talking about…i mean, he’s under contract next season,”
Or does this simply refer to the 08 season?
‘08.
That like calling tomorrow next Saturday.
08 is this season.
From what I have been reading on other sites, it says signing Livan could show the Mets throwing up a white flag for Johan.
I 100% disagree.
IMO I think this means Santana could be VERY close to happening.
#1 This could signify Pelfrey going in the deal for Santana, which if true would leave us with no 5th starter. Signing a FA like Livan, believe it or not would paramount Santana right now since there are 3 teams in on Johan and 30 in on Livan.
#2 This could also signify Heilman going in the deal as well. El Duque becomes our long reliver/spot starter. Wise becomes the 8th inning guy and the Mets appear ready to assume Duaner is back to his 2006 form.
I would not be shocked if Livan signs by Monday and some sort of trade is announced next week, by mid week.
For some reason, I am starting to think this deal could involove Heilman, Church, Pelfrey, Mulvey and maybe even Gomez.
This might actually make more sense than the other rumors we have been hearing sas now all of a sudden MIN get 3 MLB ready now players (4 if you count Gomez in 07) and a decent pitching prospect.
Thoughts?
I don’t include Heilman in the deal. Sanchez is still a question mark, and let’s not forget, Johan is a 7-inning pitcher. Looking at the big picture (or pitcher, lol), I don’t know that this seriously improves the pitching staff. I like Duque in the pen, but he’s unproven in that role. He’d likely be fine, but there’s no way to know that, and sacrificing Heilman, a proven and valuable commodity, just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
The point of all of this is to upgrade the pitching staff as a whole. We can’t really separate the pen from the rotation, because they’re inextricably linked. How one performs has a direct effect on the other.
If they insist on Heilman, I have to do the deal. But then we’d be hit with another problem in how to replace Heilman, one of the best relievers in the NL. Of course, we could hope to fix that in Spring Training, but I don’t feel comfortable with that at all.
I think you replace Gomez with F Mart and then you have the offer the mets have presented I think assuming you are right about the reason for bringing Livan on board. I also think if Duaner is healthy he will be the 8th inning man and not wise. WIse will be the 7th…
For all we know the Mets could already be in that 72 hr window hammering out a deal with Santana.
yeah, I wonder about that…why would they necessarily want to make public that they’re that close? Why give another team more opportunity than necessary to swoop in?
Santana santana santana. Santana santana santana santana, santana santana santana santana santana. Santana? Santanasantana santana. Johan santana!
I still wonder if the Twins want Maine. I am by no means saying trade him but what if Livan will be brought in to replace Maine?
Johan, Pedro, Perez, Elduque, Livan?
Trading
Maine, Church, Heilman, Humber ? Gives them 4 players that can make the MLB team that are cheap?
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!
By the way, did I say NO!
NONONONONONONONONONONONO……..fill one hole and create another makes no sense……
Sorry, you know my feelings on this from the thread above, but I thought I’d be a bit more adamant :-)
that would be a terrible, terrible trade. If Omar did that, he should immediately be fired for drunk dealing.
Most of you people need to think before you type….I am embarrassed to root for the same team as most of you. Why dont we just give them our starting nine, that will satisfy their need for major league ready players also….You think the mets are willing to give up all of heilman, pelfrey, church, gomez in a package and add that many gaps…Get a clue….they are reluctant to give up prospects, but they dont care if they lose a large percentage of their current roster…Give me a break and get a clue people…
If we embarrass you, then go away.
This is a forum for all people to express their thoughts and feelings. If our thoughts and feelings are so offensive to you, you know the way out.
You would think if you had to say something for everyone to read it would be intelligent….And your point exactly, I’m now expressing my feelings as a fan, so take your own advice buddy….
Maybe there gonna sign livan as a precursor to trade jose reyes for santana…this way livan can play short when he is not pitching….Just as good as some of the other thoughts
Dude, you can express whatever you want, but there is no need to be a douche bag and insult everyone else.
You and the others are insulting yourselves and all mets fans with some of your comments….
..and don’t flatter yourself, I’m not just talking to you…so don’t get your panties all twisted and stop worrying about me if you don’t like my opinions…
Yes, I absolutely think they would. This would create two holes and fill one. You also have Duaner coming back and a host of other bullpen arms to chose from.
What large percentage of the roster are you even talking about? A borderline 3rd outfielder, a 7th inning reliever, and two prospects?
Hey “get a clue”… get a new expression.
The first half of this post made me think it is all over. The second half made me think he is coming in a day or 2 to the mets aaggggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can’t take it any more.
Was there also a hint a move won’t happen until after pitchers and catcheers report. Double aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggggggggggggggggg!
Is this the same Sid Hartman that refuted Castillo being traded to the Mets?
Siddhartha > Sid Hartman
It needed to be said.
This all just so ridiculous already! Its getting dangerously close to pitchers and catchers reporting to camp and at this point we are really no closer to getting Santana then A: the BoSox or Yanks or B: than we were two months ago!! This whole saga has moved at a snail’s pace, there has been millions of words and reports about this (probably 88% speculation) and here we are preparing to go into next season with essentially the same problems we ended last season with (and of course we lost Glavine’s 200 IP).
Hopefully by next week, we can hear something defintive from SOMEONE (Twins’s reps, Met’s reps, Johan’s reps, etc.) that will shed some light on this mysterious and endless situation and help teams prepare for next year. If the Mets don’t get Johan, much of this off-season (i would think) will be lost due to the mass concentration that has been on potentially acquiring Santana.
For all you know the Mets could already be in that 72 hr window hammering out a deal with Santana.
I am getting so sick of this crap! I hope the TWINKIES screw around and don’t trade him and Johan sticks it to them come trading deadline. That would be great!
I hope he blows his arm out high fiving kids at a local charity event and we end up sucking for a year. We then shed payroll,
get another great draft pick, on top of 2008’s June draft and then sign Santana on the cheap as he recovers.
We then watch Deolis/Fernando/Carlos flourish and also have money to sign a Joe Nathan as well. This team with a declining Wagner, Duque and so many other flakes like Schoenweis, Schneider, Delgado will not go anywhere. Sorry, but this team was .500 since June of last year. .500, before the collapse.
I’d rather wait a year and build a dynasty then piss away the farm in hopes that this team of salsa dancers figures it out. They showed me what they are REALLY made of last year. Talk is cheap, and the fans and team do a lot of TALK. Let’s see if this team DESERVES a Santana. So far, they haven’t.
And anybody who calls Deolis Diego needs to STFU with ‘trade rumors’. I mean, come on!
“team of salsa dancers”? What is that suppose to mean?
“Deserves” a Santana? what the hell are you talking about? They “deserve” him as much as any other team! WE “deserve” him for paying as much as we do at Shea and for suffering with this team year after year.
To MEtsrant’s point….There really should be some poll taken about the direction to take this team..
I sense about ….
1) 50% of the fans on the site want to go for broke and trade anything necessary to complete a deal with the twins for Santana. Maine, Gotay, Heilman, Fmart, Church, Gomez, Pelfrey, Guerra, Humber and Mulvey (take any 6 or 7 necessary just deliver us Santana)
2) 30% of the fans on this site want to get Santana but are measured in the offer. No more than 4 important prospects/young players like church and not Fmart and Gomez in the same deal.
3) Then maybe 20% who want nothing to do with the go improve the team this year through trading our better kids. THis group wants to keep Pelfrey, Humber, Mulvey, Guerra, Fmart and Gomez and try for the division we lost by 1 game with last years group. then open the wallets in 2009 and buy a new 1b (Texiera), buy that pitcher we need…maybe 2 (Sheets, Santana, etc) and pray that the prospects in Gomez and Fmart develop so they can take over for Alou and Church. Pray one pitcher develops enough to become a starter and we can move away from the aging crop of crap we have on the team.
I am somewhere between camp 2 and camp 3. What about you guys?
2. I like 3, but this is a special case because of the youth and quality of the pitcher. But, defaulting to an emphasis on player development is important enough that we shouldn’t sell the entire harvest, and next year’s, and the year after, for one starting pitcher (read: unpredictable injury risk) who wants a ton of money. Ergo, 2. The lukewarm water, Derek Smalls approach.
yup, I’m a solid 2.5. I’d love to get Santana, and am willing to deal some prospects (some, not all), and I’ll be disappointed if we don’t get him. But I also think the team’s in fine shape, much better than many seem to believe (I think the only way we’re a ‘third place team’, as some have posted, is if the team bus crashes. And even then we’re still better than the Marlins and Nats) And getting to keep and develop the kids could turn out to be just as rewarding.
I remember going for broke with Saberhagen, Vince Colemen, than Mo Vaugn………..You have to work in one or two stars around a core of your players and role players. This way you don’t suddenly drop off a cliff when things don’t pan out because you have too many resources committed to too few player (former stars).
pardon me…..a core of young players………
If Chuch is included, anyone see a possible trade for the X-Man to patrol RF again? He’s overpaid for the Pirates, who thought of non-tendering him this year.
maybe im REALLY grasping at straws here..but i think im putting some info together that may mean the Johan situation is coming to a head….
—all winter long, we heard the Mets aren’t going to sign a pitcher until the Johan/Ace trades are exhausted..and now they’re supposedly CLOSE to Livan….
—and the Twins were saying that they won’t disucss long term contract with Cuddyer and Morneau until the Johan situation is resolved…and now the Twins are having a press conference to announce BOTH of those players have been signed long term
—also, suddenly now the twins are takling Church, Heilman, Pelfrey (ML ready players) and our top guy, F-Mart…and now those 2 moves above happen…
hmmm…mets looking at livan, twins using up money to sign 2 players….
does this mean that Johan is coming for Church, Heilman, Pelfrey, and Fernando Martinez???
wow, im REALLY taking a long shot here…i feel like Special Agent Mulder
dude…stop it, you’re giving me butterflies and dizzyness…
that’s really not so crazy at all! my god…
This could also mean that the Yankees or Sox got him and Omar knows and went for the cheap backup.
I’d think a guy in the front office would know his name isn’t Diego.
I posted this yesterday, but I can’t imagine Omar cares at all about the Super Bowl. If he makes the trade, its going to get leaked.
i think everyone would love to believe that…but Diego dude???? Come on…horrible try at a rumor..
plus thats one of those “someone i know, who knows someone, who knows something else, who has a brother who overheard someone on the subway, that said that this guy dropped a piece of paper said…”
forget that
Just another guy starved for attention.
That was yesterday morning’s regurgitated speculation.
Diego… hahahahahahah
yeah diego that’s a real knee slapper. morons.
I believe that even if Omar did not care about the Super Bowl, he is smart enough to realize most sports fans will be talking football for the next few days, more so if the Giants win. If he makes this big trade, he will want the all the headlines in order to sell tickets. The same could be said for the Yankees and the Red Sox. I know this is torture, but there is no way a trade would be announced until about Feb. 7 at the earliest.