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Today, in the Star-Tribune, La Velle E. Neal III reports that the Twins may soon contact the Red Sox, Yankees and Mets to say it’s time for them to each ‘step up’ with their best offers.
On Saturday, the Pioneer-Press wrote that the Twins are expected 
to trade Santana within 10 days.
The Twins still want Phil Hughes from the Yankees, who continue to make him unavailable, writes Neal, adding…
“The Twins would like for the Mets to add outfield prospect Fernando Martinez to a package that includes outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Delios Guerra, Kevin Mulvey and Philip Humber. The Mets, who need Santana the most, have been reluctant to add Martinez to the deal, and other possible add-ons – such as pitcher Aaron Heilman and outfielder Ryan Church – have been mentioned.”
…assuming neal’s report is current and correct, then we’ve been over this before: why part with martinez, if the Twins are dissatisfied with boston’s offer and hughes is still off the table…i mean, if the Mets are viewed as the front-runner, without martinez in the deal, why include martinez…
…the thing is, my sense is that even if the Mets include martinez, right now, the deal still will not get done – because minnesota’s mark continues to be hughes, and it appears they’ll wait forever to try and smoke him out…
According to Joel Sherman in Sunday’s New York Post, “The Mets fear their front-runner status is being floated by the Twins as a way to provoke the Yanks back into more serious discussions, which in turn would re-energize the Red Sox.”
…i.e., again, like last week and the week before, the Mets are wisely standing firm – so long as the Yankees and Red Sox remain passive…if the Yankees and Red Sox turn up the heat, the Mets will hopefully up the ante…otherwise, why should they – especially if santana eventually decides to put a bit of pressure on the Twins to make a deal…
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Same old ground. This is way past unbearable. February 2nd in an endless loop. Ironic if the deal actually goes down on that day.
i honestly hope it does happen on ground hog day. it would be more than fitting.
” Buzz: Twins Need to Get Off the Pot”
How about “Twins Constipated: Need Laxative”. As long as it is not “Twins Sh*t on Mets”.
10+
Clever. That just about sums it up. I think Santana is the laxative. Pass the toilet paper . AHHHH potty humor in the morning
Alright, let’s drop Deolis from this deal and replace him with Vargas.
How ’bout Hunber, Mulvey, Ryan Church, and Heilman . . . for Santana and Joe Nathan?
When I originally thought about that combo, it was with my three-month-old daughter in my arms, and a formula bottle in her mouth, at sometime in between 2 and 3 AM, Sunday . . . I figured that it was because of a lack of sleep (or caffiene) that I proposed such a deal.
If the twins ever mentioned that trade, Omar would have snatched it up and made sweet love to it…
never gonna happen
Enough with Nathan. Look at how long it’s taking them to deal Johan. If they wanted Reyes for Santana, they’re going to ask for Wright for Nathan.
DROP IT. We’re not getting BOTH Johan and Nathan.
Slowly this is coming to a head. I think the only 2 real options on the table are
1) the Twins keeping him for 2008 season and likely only get a couple of draft picks in june of 2009 or
2) a trade to the METS for the guys being discussed.
I really do not see the Yanks or Sox steppin up as neither has the need or desire to add this much payroll to get results.
Hang tight Omar. Just wait it out another 3 weeks. If the bell rings on Spring Training…I do think that is the time to say either take it or leave it with out offer. We will need to sign up some scrubs and would not be able to wait any longer to commit to them
I do not think that Omar wants to spend half as much more as he would spend on Santana on Louse and a third as much on Hernandez if he get Santana. So I guess he will want to go with a cheaper option if they get Santana……El Duque and Pelfry as a back up. If not, probably only Hernandez with Perfry and Humber still around if one of the old timers gets injured.
Twins have drawn this out way too far. They probably would have done better during the winter meetings to pull the trigger.
Omar should just tell Smith take or leave…you got til the end of the business day to decide. Enough of yanking everyone around. I’m getting to the point of not caring and believing that the prospects might just be better. Geez, Smith is worse than a freakin’ girl in a shoe store!!
I believe Hank Steinbrenner already tried this and ended up with egg on his face.
the twins should take their time. they’re fine with keeping santana and taking a run at the world series this year adding a few high draft picks next year when santana leaves (they sure draft well)
if they do decide to trade santana the twins should hold out for a package that will be superior to what they could draft themselves. why take less? minnesota isn’t the ny media. fans aren’t going to over-react. the organization has done a lot more winning than the mets (for example) the last 20 years with a lot fewer resources.
sure, we’d all love santana for a mediocre package (gomez, humber, mulvey, guerra), but does that make sense for them? not really.
fine. then they should draw a line in the sand and get this thing over with. Smith is being very swishy washy.
if the twins hold on to him bc they have some kind of fantasy that theyll compete and end up with compensation similar to if not worse (draft pick wise) than what we got back for glavine, they are morons.
Do you walk into the car dealer to buy a new vehicle and accept the first price that salesman says or do you negotiate? If you think about it, Bill Smith’s career footprint will hinge on this one deal and the ramifications could be catastrophic both organizationally and publicly. I’m giving the rookie the benefit of the doubt – take your time BS and do what’s best for all parties involved.
Ofcourse you negotiate…but not for three months!!!!
Comes a time when you say ok I’ll buy it or say nah I wont buy it.
For Smith this is already a public relations disaster. He’s damned if does he’s damned if doesnt and he knows it so make the best trade he can (and that was back when it was hot during the winter meetings but he waited and screwed up) NOW.
they haven’t been negotiating for 3 months. there are talks btw the parties occasionally.
just b/c it’s posted daily on blogs or writtin about in the papers doesn’t mean there are serious discussions or changes in player packages regularly.
mets fans are in a rush b/c they’re tired of hearing about it. this is a business. there is not rush. smith is fine either way. another season to compete with santana + picks or a trade with a package of his choice from 3 teams.
there is only 1 desperate team: ny mets
doesn’t this just show that the Twins are desperate?
it’s pretty clear what everyones best offer is…
if i was a buyer and the seller contacts me after months saying “here’s another chance at a best offer” I’m thinking “this guy must not have gotten anything better than my initial offer… hell i may be able to lower it now”
“Pretty Clear” ? What exactly are the offers then. I’d like to know for sure and unless someone has a wire tap on some telephon lines, htere’s not many that actually do. Pure speculation.
“if i was a buyer and the seller contacts me after months saying “here’s another chance at a best offer” I’m thinking “this guy must not have gotten anything better than my initial offer… hell i may be able to lower it now”
Are the Mets or anyone else confident enough in that theory to potentially lose out on the arquably best pitcher in baseball. If your a gambler and feeling lucky – roll the dice. If you rollem and lose, what’s your answer going to be to the Mets fans.
The deal you mentioned or something close is the best deal on the table now for the Twins. Maybe the Yanks or the Red Sox up the ante but if they do not, I think the Twins take the Mets offer. Santana doesn’t want to wait for free agency to cash in. If he pushes, Smith will have to move and he knows it.
That package is ten times better then just two draft picks. Hell yes it makes sense for them. If they were put back in the draft today, Gomez and Guerra would both go in the 1st round, although they’d likely be two of the guys the Twins can’t draft because of signability issues, and they’re getting two guys in Humber and Mulvey to go along with it. Definately makes more sense for them then two draft picks.
Actually, I think Matt has this slightly wrong.
I do agree that the Mets have little incentive to add Fmart because the Red Sox and Yankees won’t include the players the Twins want, therefore making the Mets offer (sans Fmart) the most attractive.
However, what I don’t agree with is that adding Fmart in the event the Sox or Yanks do add the players the Twins want will get a deal done with the Twins. See, if the players the Twins want come available from the Sox or Yanks, it’s deal time and the Mets are out because even with Fmart, they don’t offer a better package.
I firmly believe this based on the three months of posturing. So, the issue becomes very simple (almost too simple):
Either:
a) Wait and hope the Sox/Yanks don’t up their offers to include players the Twins want and get Santana with Gomez and the three pitchers; or
b) add Fmart to the deal NOW and go to the Twins and say it’s now or never.
Is it worth holding Fmart out of the deal and losing Santana?
This is actually a good point. I understand the Mets rationale that since they may be the only active player in this, they should hold onto as much as possible, BUT, the Mets may be getting greedy over here. If I were the Mets, I would offer the deal with FMart in place of Gomez or Guerra and hope to get it done. Time is not necessarilly on our side as some team may just decide to do it already (yanks, Bosox) which they apparently can get done with one phone call.
Lets face it, if the Mets hold out, try to play hard ball and try to skin the Twins only to have the Yanks swoop in and decide they’ll give Hughes we would all be CRUSHED. We should do something while its supposedly avaliable to us.
I agree with the exception that I wont be crushed if the Yanks give up Hughes and some crazy talented prospects, in essence over paying in talent and then in payroll.
I believe that the current staff would do “okay” and the Mets could squeak into the playoffs as is. I would love to have Santana this year plus five/six more, but I would also like to see FMart, Mulvey and Guerra develop into the future of the team. Bottom line I hate to see a total gutting of our system…so I would play hardball and try to hold on to as many of my prospects as possible.
To you, he’s jus FMart. Realize tho, his TRADE VALUE is quite high.
He’s being discussed as the centerpiece of the deal before he has even done anything in the minors. If we hold FMart and he has some success, we will be able to deal FMart ALONE for a big pitcher down the road.
Imagine if FMart posted a .900 OPS in double A this season as a 19 yr old. I realize this is a gamble and it could go the other way. Just saying, FMart is no throw in here. Whether u like him or not, he has tremendous trade value.
If we acquired Johan and were able to keep FMart, we’d still have a MAJOR trade chip in the system to get somethign else down the road.
Dude, you seem to miss the point of my post. I don’t say anything about putting him in the deal or not. I merely suggest that whether he’s in the deal or not is probably irrelevant if the Sox or Yanks step up their offers.
Fmart or no, the Mets are out if the Twins get what they want from either the Sox or the Yanks.
So, if you are Omar, do you wait and pray that the Sox/Yanks stay out or do you try to jump any interest by those two team by pushing the issue by adding Fmart?
Do you get what I’m saying?
Would a deal of Fmart, Gomez and Humber get it done?? If they want him so bad, why not give up FMart and instead hold onto Mulvey and/or Guerra.
I’ll be happy with any scenario where we get Johan and keep all of our major league talent.
In that package, Mulvey is theoretically the closest to the bigs and I can live with that.
Omar will buy us 10 more Fmarts by the time Martinez is actually playing in the bigs.
I still say the contract negotiations with Johan is what is holding up this deal. I think they decided on the players being traded looooooong time ago. I think they’re definitely in the money stage by now.
i just have to disagree with you here. you get 72 hours for a negotiation. there can be no negotiation for a contract extension without a trade. and, the trade would have to be announced and approved by the mlb front office before any negotiations could begin. also, do you really think back channel negotiations would linger for months without an agreement? and, do you really think the mets would sit around and not move on if they were having such a terrible time with back channel negotiations?
the hold up is not about contract negotiations.
Something else to consider here……
When Omar signed Guerra and FMart, they were 2 KIDS who liked baseball. Now they are the centerpiece of a deal for the best pitcher in the game.
You can blame Omar if this doesn’t happen for whatever reason. If not for Omar, we wouldn’t even have a CHANCE in the first place.
omar21, are you ACTUALLY suggesting that we kiss omar’s butt for having a farm system with five or six talented players in it? are you effing kidding me?
when he took over the system, it SUCKED.
Thats not to say that Omar didn’t have his finger print here alredy tho. U know that guy named Jose Reyes?
Yea, u can thank Omar for him.
He signed 2 kids……2 years later, they are the CENTERPIECE in a deal for the best pitcher in the game.
Omar doesn’t deserve some props for that? Really???
U prefer Steve Phillips’ style then? Go out an sign Zito and NOT even have the 6 good prospects we have now?
Omar has been busy rejuvenating a lifeless team. Signing Beltran and Pedro cost us draft picks. I don’t think anyone on this board would dispute both were GREAT investments.
He went out of the draft and took a chance on 2 kids. Now he has the main pieces to JOHAN SANTANA.
Going from 2 latin american pick ups to johan santana isn’t a nice upgrade? That’s not a job well done by a GM?
What the F do u want him to do? Pull a 26 yr old Sandy Koufax out of a F-ing hat?
dude, come on, do some research first.
reyes was signed by the previous regime and NOT by omar. now, omar may have worked for steve phillips during reyes’ signing, and if omar was the one to scout and sign him, that’s great. but if you are going to put down steve phillips and laud omar in back-to-back sentences, shame on your for not doing your homework. you have to give phillips the credit for reyes, because he was the gm. just like you have to give omar the credit for fmart because omar was the gm when fmart was signed.
carlos gomez? signed in the summer of 2002. do you know where omar was then? you probably can’t remember before omar, so let me tell you. there used to be a franchise called the montreal expos. (they later became the now washington nationals.) well, omar minaya was the gm of the expos during the summer of 2002 (and through the end of 2004). yeah.
humber? not omar’s either. he was drafted in 2004.
fmart, guerra, and mulvey were all signed during the omar regime, so you’re safe there. but hardly exonerated for your comments. i mean, these are 20 year old kids. i make a point about their value below, please wait for it.
but, let me address your overall attitude toward my point. you think i’m putting down omar. i’m not. please read the following closely before lashing out, again.
the mets farm system is widely regarded as one of the weakest in baseball. it’s not omar’s fault alone. he has only been the gm since 2005. in fact, i like the direction he’s taking it (especially if he ignores the slotting system). we all know that he has done a great job putting together a very competitive team. and, yes, fmart, guerra, and mulvey could potentially help land santana.
BIG POINT HERE: but, every team in the league has prospects capable of landing santana in a trade. EVERY LAST ONE. it’s the mets ability to pay the contract that puts them into the mix. if the contract wasn’t an issue, the mets wouldn’t be any where near close to getting santana for the prospects they have. don’t over value omar’s contribution to the farm system based on the team’s financial capabilities to sign santana!
Charlie
THANK YOU
Omar was the scout that brought reyes in u dumbass.
Charlie,
Now that I’ve read ur little essay, allow me to destroy u.
Omar was the man that pushed for the Mets to get Reyes. Steven Phillips dserves ZERO credit for this.
Just because Omar wasn’t the GM, doesn’t mean he wasn’t doing his thing.
You see, before a man gets promoted to GM, he has to do lots of great things to prove he is worty of the job. Omar, built his reputation on finding guys like Sammy sosa, juan gonzalez, ivan rodriguez and jose reyes. There’s a little history for u. I realize that Phillips being the GM and Omar bringing Reyes in tough for u to comprehend.
By the way, the Phillips “regime” that u refer to, actually tried to trade reyes on multiple occasions after Omar left. HE also tried offered up david wright on multiple occasions. So you need to get a clue before u attempt to comment on who dserves credit for what.
As for the prospects?
Omar has dumped the majority of the crap he received as a rseult of the “last regime” whom u seem to love so much. NONE of those guys are doing shit right. Heath bell rejuvenated his career in a relief pitcher’s paradise. Brian Bannister is living on a bubble that’s going to blow up in his face in the very near future once the AL gets to see him again.
the long list of “prospects” from the last regime haven’t done ANYTHING.
Mulvey?
3.32 ERA, 152 IP, 110 Ks
Fernando Martinez?
Widely considered the best prospect in the system.
Deolis Guerra?
Was throwing 88 when Omar signed him. He’s at 94 now and his best pitch might be his CHANGE UP which is extremely rare for a pitcher his age.
O right, the last “regime” brought in HUMBER. OOOOOH HUMBER!!
Humber sucks! If we’re lucky, we’re gona get a #4 out starter out of him or some other team is actually going to giv him a shot and giv something up for him.
Omar has NOTHING to do with the quaility of our farm system. For you to even imply that PART OF IT is his fault, is absolute bologna.
And somehow, u went into talking about mets prospects and forgot MIKE PELFREY!
Yea, he’s that 6-7 190 lb guy throwing upper 90s heat in shea less than 2 years after OMAR drafted him.
Pelfrey isnt ready yet, as power pitchers take a bit longer to blossom, but when he puts it all together, he’s gona be a BEAST, unlike ur favorite “regime’s” guy who is at best a #4.
This is one of the most exciting times to be a mets fan in the teams history and omar has EVERYTHING to do with it u dumbass. Even talking about the prospects acquired before his tenure, AT LEAST WE STILL HAVE THEM!!!
We have won an NL east title and came VERY close to winning another. We did this and the best prospect we gave up in the process was HEATH BELL. Meanwhile, OMAR has brought in DOZENS of solid players to OLIVER PEREZ and JOHN MAINE without dealing ANY of our TOP prospects.
Do you hnestly have ANY DOUBT that even the few prospects we have would no longer be Mets under the “last regime”??
Dude my understanding of the evolution of the Mets over the past 20 years is WAAAAAAY more advanced than urs. Go ahead and blame Omar and dream of the days wth the “last regime”. Put up ur poster of Steve Phillips for bringing in the great PHILLIP HUMBER and Carlos Gomez.
I will sit here and enjoy one of the most brilliant GMs I’ve ever seen do his thing and enjoy every minute.
Many Met fans say dont be concerned if the mets give away the farm for Santana because we have 3 draft picks this year. Well from that angle, Twins keeping Santana for another year and going for a series win is the route to take because If Santana dosnt resign in 09 after a chapionship title, then the twins will have 3 first round draft picks also.
The mets farm system is currently lacking and Omar may not be at fault for that, if we do give up the farm for Santana, who do we blame for no lower level talent for 08 and beyond?
Call me crazy but I still believe we should put MLB players in the trade and try to hold onto our promising minor leaugers. And the mets should sign some lower level free agent SP in the event a Perez gets delt in the deal. (Perez, Church, Guerra)
But if we are forced to clean out the farm, call me crazy but I think we should trade Perez (whos stock is up) at the deadline for a lower name SP or RP, plus quality minor leaugers to restock the farm, as Perez has great trade value and is not going to live up to expectation. Well he will live up to my expectation of inconsistancy. Perez blew his load in 07..
the captain,
ur reply is so ridiculous, im not even gona bother.
Well since Im here feel free to bother, Id rather spend a large piece of the monetary met pie on Santana. Since Perez is in the same boat contractually (final year), lets get value for him. Just a suggestion, Perez is only a met because when Omar originally obtained him at the deadline a few years ago, he was part of a 3 way trade that fell through, yes Omar had him traded to the Padres for Scott Linbrink and Padres pulled out last minute. So dont give entire credit to Omar for Perez as Mets could also have watched Linbrink sign else where this off season.
I give credit for Omar braging about Perez on the hot stove to get his trading value up as Perez was never in the long term plans anyway.
omar21, you are completely unaware of how absolutely immature you come off. you also seem to have a problem with understanding concepts that you read. I will make one last attempt at this and then i’m done with you.
here are just some of the assumptions you rest your faulty argument upon and my responses:
1) according to you omar gets credit for fmart, guerra, and mulvey because he’s the gm. but, phillips doesn’t get credit for reyes because omar was doing the real work under phillips. you say it was omar that scouted them and phillips had nothing to do with it because gms have people working for them. okay, well, omar has people working for him, too. so, is it omar that should get the credit or his scouting system finding and signing fmart, guerra, and mulvey? according to you, the answer must be is no because the gm has delagated that responsibility.
2) according to you humber sucks. however, in reality, he does not. he got hurt. it happens in scouting. he was highly touted and could have been very special if not for the injury. you can’t predict injuries.
3) you somehow think i prefer the pre-omar regimes. why? because i pointed out that your premise for your faulty arguments was erroneous because you failed to mentioned that reyes, wright, and gomez (for starters) were not signed/drafted under omar’s watch? that was a huge leap. i was criticizing you, not omar.
4) you fail to address the central thesis of my previous argument; that the mets are only in this because three teams can afford to pay santana after the trade, and they are one of them. if the trade were to be predicated solely on talent and not the ability to pay santana, the mets would not have a competitive offer. in fact, if the yankees put one player on the table, just one (hughes), it would all end and the mets would be having a press conference to introduce kyle lohse and livan hernandez. this point was made to hammer home the fact that it is not the strength of the farm system that puts the mets in contention for santana, it’s the enormous financial resourse of the organization that makes the mets contenders. and, even still, the twins hesitate to make the deal because the talent on the table isn’t viewed as sufficient.
5) your posts lack fairness. why didn’t you talk about how gomez (who is also considered central to the deal for santana) was not a product of the omar regime? the answer to this question is simple. your posting lacks integrity. it would hurt your argument to talk about it, so you don’t. where i gave you credit by mentioning the kids omar drafted, you choose to ignore my point that omar didn’t draft gomez and call me names. that’s posting with a lack of integrity, plain and simple.
and with that being my final point, i will now try to ignore all your future posts because frankly i don’t have any faith in your ability to be fair in these arguments and you clearly cannot abstain from name-calling (which is generally what someone without something of substance to say resorts to doing).
fmart is a bigger piece to the deal than gomez.
omar is a scout. his roots are in scouting, phillips understood scoutig but was not a scout. im not blindly crediting the GMs. omar and phillips are 2 vastly diff men.
im bored of u. im not getting anything interesting from u. ur getting all the benefit out of this discussion.
thanks, im done.
“2) according to you humber sucks. however, in reality, he does not. he got hurt. it happens in scouting. he was highly touted and could have been very special if not for the injury. you can’t predict injuries.”
by the way, this statement is nonsense. scouts evaluate players, ESPECIALLLY PITCHERS, for durability ALL THE TIME.
Omar21, I do not think that you are being fair to either Charlie or The Captain. I never post in these forums (but I am addicted to reading), but I felt the need to come forward here. No one is putting Omar down here – Charlie was just making a point that Omar is not the diety that you make him out to be. Prospects are prospects, but the bottom line does remain that we have all the money and we therefore we are going to be included in any discussions for available talent. I think you need to put aside the need to be right and just accept the reality of being wrong. The bottom line is that after the trade is made (assuming we get Santana), no one is going to care who we gave up, who found who, or what they are doing now. This blog is going to rejoice that we have the best pitcher in baseball.
i have grown to hate the twins (more specifically Bill Smith). make a f-ing decision already! so i can go back to just hating the braves, phillies and skanks. thank you.
This is Bill Smith finally telling everyone to put their cards on the table. Then, we will see if the Yanks and Sox fold, whether they were holding a wild card or if any of the three raises the stakes.
If everybody just puts their cards on the table, we probably have the winning hand.
Church had a very good season last year. I’m interested to see how he does. Gary Coleman said yesterday he hit righties very well and if he could hit lefties any better he would be a very good hitter.
That being said, if the twins want hit for santana you gotta trade him
Gary Coleman? What you talken about willis!
dude, that was funny.
i dont know why the hell people are mentioning perez in this deal the kid is 26 and already in his career put up over 200 strikeouts and did great for us last year . plus he kills the braves and skanks so i would say keep perez and for gods sakes keep at least f-mart or gomez we cant give up both.
i just don’t see it. you don’t need two months to work out a deal. sorry.
the reason for this dragging out is that there are three teams with competitive packages and the ability to pay the extension. bill smith is dragging his feet because all three teams has basically built the price of the extension into the trade price and bill smith doesn’t know what to do to combat that. he’s frozen.