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	<title>Comments on: Regis: Thoughts on Johan Santana</title>
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		<title>By: BigHangWithEm</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-95187</link>
		<dc:creator>BigHangWithEm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-95187</guid>
		<description>Ceb,

You seem like a good guy, nice to have you around!!  Seems like you take all that venom in stride, like you knew what to expect.

I&#039;m also glad that you seem like a realist.  My opinion on the players the Twins got. in case you care, is that this was the best available package for the Twins, assuming that Hughes really wasn&#039;t available.  Guerra should be a stud and Humber is very good and should start for the Twins most of the year.  Look at Humber&#039;s AAA stats last year, but compare them to the rest of the league.  That league is a notorious hitter&#039;s league and the pitchers&#039; stats bear that out. Gomez, I am not as high on him as the Twins seem to be but he is FAST, so he could be intreguing.  I still think you crapping all over Johan is sour grapes, but that&#039;s cool.

Now I am looking at Johan&#039;s game log last year, nothing jumps out as awful or a really bad stretch like you mentioned, but the numbers can lie so I will give you the benefit of the doubt, this time.

I&#039;m curious to hear if you consider how the Mets got Johan, by dealing assets that were either signed as young FAs or drafted as opposed to simply shelling out money for him, constitutes doing things the &quot;right way&quot;?  Also, do you think that Terry Ryan should have really dealt Johan before the 2007 season so he could have gotten really great assets for him?

You mentioned Hampton as a bad contract, uh yeah, awful awful contract, also not a Met contract.  That gets chalked up to the Rockies and the wonderful Denver Public School System (long story, if that makes no sense).  As far as Pedro, Pedro gives value to the Mets way beyond his on field contributions.  Pedro is a talismanic figure for this franchise, he is a leader and his aquisition legitimized the Mets, much like Mike Piazza coming to NY did in 1997.

Lastly, I think it&#039;s nice to see that you understand that the Twins are in a tough spot for the next couple of years as the Indians and Tigers seem to have built two amazing teams that should be intact for the next 2-4 years.  That&#039;s why I think the Twins did the right thing in taking the package with the most players and with the least amount of ML service.  I also like that you acknowledge that Bedard and Haren, while not nearly as good as Johan, were going to command more in a trade.

Thanks and sorry for being a condesending NY loudmouth before.  Also, the 1991 WS, where you guys beat the crap out of the Braves, that&#039;s my favorite WS ever (after 1986 of course).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ceb,</p>
<p>You seem like a good guy, nice to have you around!!  Seems like you take all that venom in stride, like you knew what to expect.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also glad that you seem like a realist.  My opinion on the players the Twins got. in case you care, is that this was the best available package for the Twins, assuming that Hughes really wasn&#8217;t available.  Guerra should be a stud and Humber is very good and should start for the Twins most of the year.  Look at Humber&#8217;s AAA stats last year, but compare them to the rest of the league.  That league is a notorious hitter&#8217;s league and the pitchers&#8217; stats bear that out. Gomez, I am not as high on him as the Twins seem to be but he is FAST, so he could be intreguing.  I still think you crapping all over Johan is sour grapes, but that&#8217;s cool.</p>
<p>Now I am looking at Johan&#8217;s game log last year, nothing jumps out as awful or a really bad stretch like you mentioned, but the numbers can lie so I will give you the benefit of the doubt, this time.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious to hear if you consider how the Mets got Johan, by dealing assets that were either signed as young FAs or drafted as opposed to simply shelling out money for him, constitutes doing things the &#8220;right way&#8221;?  Also, do you think that Terry Ryan should have really dealt Johan before the 2007 season so he could have gotten really great assets for him?</p>
<p>You mentioned Hampton as a bad contract, uh yeah, awful awful contract, also not a Met contract.  That gets chalked up to the Rockies and the wonderful Denver Public School System (long story, if that makes no sense).  As far as Pedro, Pedro gives value to the Mets way beyond his on field contributions.  Pedro is a talismanic figure for this franchise, he is a leader and his aquisition legitimized the Mets, much like Mike Piazza coming to NY did in 1997.</p>
<p>Lastly, I think it&#8217;s nice to see that you understand that the Twins are in a tough spot for the next couple of years as the Indians and Tigers seem to have built two amazing teams that should be intact for the next 2-4 years.  That&#8217;s why I think the Twins did the right thing in taking the package with the most players and with the least amount of ML service.  I also like that you acknowledge that Bedard and Haren, while not nearly as good as Johan, were going to command more in a trade.</p>
<p>Thanks and sorry for being a condesending NY loudmouth before.  Also, the 1991 WS, where you guys beat the crap out of the Braves, that&#8217;s my favorite WS ever (after 1986 of course).</p>
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		<title>By: guierllNO MOta</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-95127</link>
		<dc:creator>guierllNO MOta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 20:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-95127</guid>
		<description>I meant Garza. Even the Mets weren&#039;t desperate enough to give Silva that kind of money.

Sincerely,

you gave Michael Cuddyer an extension...for that much?!?!?!?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant Garza. Even the Mets weren&#8217;t desperate enough to give Silva that kind of money.</p>
<p>Sincerely,</p>
<p>you gave Michael Cuddyer an extension&#8230;for that much?!?!?!?!</p>
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		<title>By: ceb</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94934</link>
		<dc:creator>ceb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 18:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94934</guid>
		<description>Answers to your comments:

Why will it be shocking when Johan gives more than two above avg seasons (after it took the AL Central 5 seasons to figure out Johan)? Is 29 the new 42 for Lefty Starters? I must have missed that memo.

answer:
Think Pedro Martinez and Mike Hampton contracts, amongst others.  Who else but a New York team would be so stupid (and rich of course) to do such a thing?  Did you see him pitch last year-I did 24 times.  All I&#039;m saying is he&#039;s losing his fastball, he has trouble throwing a slider consistently, and his changeup can be figured out with time.  Look at the game stats and watch him and see this coming year.


Don’t be bitter that Minny is not anywhere near a ML quality city anymore. Suck it up and go sit in the back of the classroom with all the other inconsequential screw up towns, like Pittsburgh and Kansas City.

answer:
No bitterness here.  You have no context for continuing to lose quality players because you are a fan in a city that has far less TV revenue-so, your superiority attitude is understandable. It does, however, make it rewarding when our team does well the right way-without doing it at other&#039;s expense.

I would bet good money ceb is just a bitter janko fan who realized that his $225M payroll is likely not good enough for the postseason.

answer:
Not true.  I&#039;m a lifelong Twins fan and  absolute hater of the Yankees, who have ruined the game far more than the Mets ever could.  I&#039;m glad the Mets got Santana if only because the Yankees will get butchered by your media if their starters struggle this year.

did you know you are getting Carlos Gomez who can’t even hit a major league fastball let alone a breaking pitch?

answer:
Yes, we know that. No illusions about what he is, so no gloating.  He may, however, turn out to be an exciting player.  I&#039;m willing to wait and see.

Do you know you are getting two former 1st round draft picks that their minor league stats make Brien Taylor not a bust?

answer:
Yes, we know the tired story about Humber but am not clear about the other 1st rounder-Mulvey was a 2nd rounder and Guerra was undrafted.  I&#039;m realistic about Humber and excited about the other two-and willing to wait.

Do you know to pronounce Deollis Guerra? Do you know he’s at best 3 years away, and at worst…as good as me?

answer:
Yes, we all know that.  Your assumption is that we are gloating over the deal because we think we ripped you off.  Not true.  Our side is a big unknown, while what you are getting is really overrated and showing indications of real decline.

Thank you for your kind thoughts ceb but you guys traded away your two best pitchers and retained Liriano who, no one other than Twins fans think will ever fully bounce back to where he was for half a season.

answer:
We traded away our best starting pitcher, and let a mediocrity go to Seattle (I assume you are talking about Silva) for 12 million-we have several young starters as good or better than him for replacement.  And only the ignorant in Twins land believe Liriano will come back to what he was, so no unrealistic expectations here.  When he was healthy, he was superior to Santana and Santana himself acknowledged that.

Congrats on finishing worse than the Royals this year.
answer:
Possible, but unlikely.  We think 3rd or 4th this year more likely.  But, we won&#039;t be swooning in September, now will we?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Answers to your comments:</p>
<p>Why will it be shocking when Johan gives more than two above avg seasons (after it took the AL Central 5 seasons to figure out Johan)? Is 29 the new 42 for Lefty Starters? I must have missed that memo.</p>
<p>answer:<br />
Think Pedro Martinez and Mike Hampton contracts, amongst others.  Who else but a New York team would be so stupid (and rich of course) to do such a thing?  Did you see him pitch last year-I did 24 times.  All I&#8217;m saying is he&#8217;s losing his fastball, he has trouble throwing a slider consistently, and his changeup can be figured out with time.  Look at the game stats and watch him and see this coming year.</p>
<p>Don’t be bitter that Minny is not anywhere near a ML quality city anymore. Suck it up and go sit in the back of the classroom with all the other inconsequential screw up towns, like Pittsburgh and Kansas City.</p>
<p>answer:<br />
No bitterness here.  You have no context for continuing to lose quality players because you are a fan in a city that has far less TV revenue-so, your superiority attitude is understandable. It does, however, make it rewarding when our team does well the right way-without doing it at other&#8217;s expense.</p>
<p>I would bet good money ceb is just a bitter janko fan who realized that his $225M payroll is likely not good enough for the postseason.</p>
<p>answer:<br />
Not true.  I&#8217;m a lifelong Twins fan and  absolute hater of the Yankees, who have ruined the game far more than the Mets ever could.  I&#8217;m glad the Mets got Santana if only because the Yankees will get butchered by your media if their starters struggle this year.</p>
<p>did you know you are getting Carlos Gomez who can’t even hit a major league fastball let alone a breaking pitch?</p>
<p>answer:<br />
Yes, we know that. No illusions about what he is, so no gloating.  He may, however, turn out to be an exciting player.  I&#8217;m willing to wait and see.</p>
<p>Do you know you are getting two former 1st round draft picks that their minor league stats make Brien Taylor not a bust?</p>
<p>answer:<br />
Yes, we know the tired story about Humber but am not clear about the other 1st rounder-Mulvey was a 2nd rounder and Guerra was undrafted.  I&#8217;m realistic about Humber and excited about the other two-and willing to wait.</p>
<p>Do you know to pronounce Deollis Guerra? Do you know he’s at best 3 years away, and at worst…as good as me?</p>
<p>answer:<br />
Yes, we all know that.  Your assumption is that we are gloating over the deal because we think we ripped you off.  Not true.  Our side is a big unknown, while what you are getting is really overrated and showing indications of real decline.</p>
<p>Thank you for your kind thoughts ceb but you guys traded away your two best pitchers and retained Liriano who, no one other than Twins fans think will ever fully bounce back to where he was for half a season.</p>
<p>answer:<br />
We traded away our best starting pitcher, and let a mediocrity go to Seattle (I assume you are talking about Silva) for 12 million-we have several young starters as good or better than him for replacement.  And only the ignorant in Twins land believe Liriano will come back to what he was, so no unrealistic expectations here.  When he was healthy, he was superior to Santana and Santana himself acknowledged that.</p>
<p>Congrats on finishing worse than the Royals this year.<br />
answer:<br />
Possible, but unlikely.  We think 3rd or 4th this year more likely.  But, we won&#8217;t be swooning in September, now will we?</p>
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		<title>By: GravediggerHebner</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94892</link>
		<dc:creator>GravediggerHebner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94892</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve said this before, but it bears repeating here.  Mets fans hope for the best and expect the worst.  I don&#039;t think anyone thinks we&#039;re getting Sandy Koufax, we just think we&#039;re getting the best lefthanded pitcher currently in baseball in his prime.  Thank you Minnesota for having excellent scouting and development and limited financial resources.  Boof!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve said this before, but it bears repeating here.  Mets fans hope for the best and expect the worst.  I don&#8217;t think anyone thinks we&#8217;re getting Sandy Koufax, we just think we&#8217;re getting the best lefthanded pitcher currently in baseball in his prime.  Thank you Minnesota for having excellent scouting and development and limited financial resources.  Boof!</p>
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		<title>By: BigHangWithEm</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94889</link>
		<dc:creator>BigHangWithEm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94889</guid>
		<description>BTW, I would bet good money ceb is just a bitter janko fan who realized that his $225M payroll is likely not good enough for the postseason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, I would bet good money ceb is just a bitter janko fan who realized that his $225M payroll is likely not good enough for the postseason.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: BigHangWithEm</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94874</link>
		<dc:creator>BigHangWithEm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94874</guid>
		<description>Hey Ceb,

I&#039;m overjoyed.  Take your sour grapes back to your tiny market and enjoy!  You got some great young players to build around.

I think most knowledgable baseball fans know that Johan is a notoriously slow starter.  Or maybe I know because one of his slow starts had a tremendous impact on our keeper fantasy league (someone dropped johan 4 years ago, they still regret it).

Why will it be shocking when Johan gives more than two above avg seasons (after it took the AL Central 5 seasons to figure out Johan)?  Is 29 the new 42 for Lefty Starters? I must have missed that memo.

Don&#039;t be bitter that Minny is not anywhere near a ML quality city anymore.  Suck it up and go sit in the back of the classroom with all the other inconsequential screw up towns, like Pittsburgh and Kansas City.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Ceb,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m overjoyed.  Take your sour grapes back to your tiny market and enjoy!  You got some great young players to build around.</p>
<p>I think most knowledgable baseball fans know that Johan is a notoriously slow starter.  Or maybe I know because one of his slow starts had a tremendous impact on our keeper fantasy league (someone dropped johan 4 years ago, they still regret it).</p>
<p>Why will it be shocking when Johan gives more than two above avg seasons (after it took the AL Central 5 seasons to figure out Johan)?  Is 29 the new 42 for Lefty Starters? I must have missed that memo.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t be bitter that Minny is not anywhere near a ML quality city anymore.  Suck it up and go sit in the back of the classroom with all the other inconsequential screw up towns, like Pittsburgh and Kansas City.</p>
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		<title>By: guierllNO MOta</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94866</link>
		<dc:creator>guierllNO MOta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94866</guid>
		<description>did you know you are getting Carlos Gomez who can&#039;t even hit a major league fastball let alone a breaking pitch?

Do you know you are getting two former 1st round draft picks that their minor league stats make Brien Taylor not a bust?

Do you know to pronounce Deollis Guerra? Do you know he&#039;s at best 3 years away, and at worst...as good as me?

Thank you for your kind thoughts ceb but you guys traded away your two best pitchers and retained Liriano who, no one other than Twins fans think will ever fully bounce back to where he was for half a season.

Congrats on finishing worse than the Royals this year.

Sincerely,

Delmon Young&#039;s future 50 game suspension</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>did you know you are getting Carlos Gomez who can&#8217;t even hit a major league fastball let alone a breaking pitch?</p>
<p>Do you know you are getting two former 1st round draft picks that their minor league stats make Brien Taylor not a bust?</p>
<p>Do you know to pronounce Deollis Guerra? Do you know he&#8217;s at best 3 years away, and at worst&#8230;as good as me?</p>
<p>Thank you for your kind thoughts ceb but you guys traded away your two best pitchers and retained Liriano who, no one other than Twins fans think will ever fully bounce back to where he was for half a season.</p>
<p>Congrats on finishing worse than the Royals this year.</p>
<p>Sincerely,</p>
<p>Delmon Young&#8217;s future 50 game suspension</p>
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		<title>By: ceb</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94839</link>
		<dc:creator>ceb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94839</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been reading Mets fans commentary in the Twins blogs about the Santana deal for weeks now, so I thought I&#039;d weigh in on some reality checks you all might want to consider regarding the &quot;god&quot; you think you got.  First, there is no bitterness with most of us regarding what we got in return, because we knew Santana&#039;s real trade value was going to be alot less than a Haren or Bedard who anybody  could afford.  When the Yankees bowed out early, we knew that only the other New York team would be so foolish to throw that kind of money at a player-and that really restricted the market for him.   So, here&#039;s the reality about what you will be getting officially introduced to you today.

1) Don&#039;t expect much of anything besides 5-7 innings, 5-10 hits given up, 2-5 runs in any of his starts in April well into May.  He&#039;s always been really ordinary early in the season, so if you think you have automatic wins with him early every fifth day, think again.
2) Did you know he threw 89-91 at best for two thirds of his starts last season, when he used to throw 92-95?
3) Did you know he couldn&#039;t throw his slider for half the season because of fingernail and blister problems?
4) Did you know that the AL Central teams, who saw him the most, figured out how he was telegraphing his famous changeup and beat him up pretty good-take a look at what Cleveland did to him last year, for example.  Take note that the NL East teams who face him frequently will also figure him out.
5) Do you really think you are getting another Sandy Koufax here?  Particularly for the next seven years?  Think again.  If you get two above average years from him most of the baseball world will be shocked.

If you want some good news, Santana will have the advantage of facing, on average, lesser quality hitters in the NL and won&#039;t have to face the DH.  And, he&#039;s a pretty decent hitter and a superlative fielder.

I hope you are happy with your $137 MM pitcher!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been reading Mets fans commentary in the Twins blogs about the Santana deal for weeks now, so I thought I&#8217;d weigh in on some reality checks you all might want to consider regarding the &#8220;god&#8221; you think you got.  First, there is no bitterness with most of us regarding what we got in return, because we knew Santana&#8217;s real trade value was going to be alot less than a Haren or Bedard who anybody  could afford.  When the Yankees bowed out early, we knew that only the other New York team would be so foolish to throw that kind of money at a player-and that really restricted the market for him.   So, here&#8217;s the reality about what you will be getting officially introduced to you today.</p>
<p>1) Don&#8217;t expect much of anything besides 5-7 innings, 5-10 hits given up, 2-5 runs in any of his starts in April well into May.  He&#8217;s always been really ordinary early in the season, so if you think you have automatic wins with him early every fifth day, think again.<br />
2) Did you know he threw 89-91 at best for two thirds of his starts last season, when he used to throw 92-95?<br />
3) Did you know he couldn&#8217;t throw his slider for half the season because of fingernail and blister problems?<br />
4) Did you know that the AL Central teams, who saw him the most, figured out how he was telegraphing his famous changeup and beat him up pretty good-take a look at what Cleveland did to him last year, for example.  Take note that the NL East teams who face him frequently will also figure him out.<br />
5) Do you really think you are getting another Sandy Koufax here?  Particularly for the next seven years?  Think again.  If you get two above average years from him most of the baseball world will be shocked.</p>
<p>If you want some good news, Santana will have the advantage of facing, on average, lesser quality hitters in the NL and won&#8217;t have to face the DH.  And, he&#8217;s a pretty decent hitter and a superlative fielder.</p>
<p>I hope you are happy with your $137 MM pitcher!</p>
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		<title>By: MetsieFan84</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94803</link>
		<dc:creator>MetsieFan84</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 16:49:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94803</guid>
		<description>Johan Santana, the young, left handed, 2 time Cy Young award winner, top of the rotation ace for the Mets. Now that&#039;s sweet!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Johan Santana, the young, left handed, 2 time Cy Young award winner, top of the rotation ace for the Mets. Now that&#8217;s sweet!</p>
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		<title>By: BigHangWithEm</title>
		<link>http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94792</link>
		<dc:creator>BigHangWithEm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 16:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/06/regis-thoughts-on-johan-santana/#comment-94792</guid>
		<description>But GH, look at the crazy amount of pressure that Cashman has just inadvertently placed on Hughes and Kennedy.  Basically he stated that these two are so good that we don&#039;t need the best pitcher in baseball.  

The jankos are already a second place team stuck behind Boston.  The fact that both Cleveland and Detroit are superior teams means that getting the AL wildcard is going to be really tough.  Counting on two rookies to give all those quality innings in the pressure cooker of a stretch run is not a wise move.

Also,  look at all the money that comes off of their payroll next year.  between Giambi, Pavano and Mussina that&#039;s over $40M.  $40M on non essential, non starting players.

And we thought Bonilla had a ridiculous contract!!

WARF WARF WARF!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But GH, look at the crazy amount of pressure that Cashman has just inadvertently placed on Hughes and Kennedy.  Basically he stated that these two are so good that we don&#8217;t need the best pitcher in baseball.  </p>
<p>The jankos are already a second place team stuck behind Boston.  The fact that both Cleveland and Detroit are superior teams means that getting the AL wildcard is going to be really tough.  Counting on two rookies to give all those quality innings in the pressure cooker of a stretch run is not a wise move.</p>
<p>Also,  look at all the money that comes off of their payroll next year.  between Giambi, Pavano and Mussina that&#8217;s over $40M.  $40M on non essential, non starting players.</p>
<p>And we thought Bonilla had a ridiculous contract!!</p>
<p>WARF WARF WARF!!!</p>
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