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In a report for FOXSports.com, Ken Rosenthal explains why the Braves, position by position, are 
superior to the Mets and comparable to the Phillies.
According to Rosenthal, “The Mets will be a fashionable pick to reach the World Series - too fashionable…but questions remain about the team’s bullpen, not to mention its character.”
Ultimately, Rosenthal writes, “The Braves, under Cox, will play the game properly. Only a fool would ignore them.”
…i agree with that last part…in fact, SNY.tv’s Ted Berg and i were just talking about how we’ll always fear the Braves more than the Phillies…actually, to my dismay, i was pretty dismissive about the Phillies through much of last season…that was clearly a mistake…however, even with last season’s ending, i am still more worried about the Braves entering this season than the Phillies…
It’s funny how when these talking heads talk about the Mets, it’s always about injuries and age but they never mention these things when talking about other teams. Who has an older pitching staff than the Braves? How many games is Larry going to miss this year? What’s the over/under on the number of games Hampton pitches?
These articles are meant to drum up readership. Nothing more.
I agree. The Braves dont really scare me or worry me. They are old and done. People are worried about the ghost of the Braves and not the current version of the team. Also, the same people that always pick the Yankees also pick the Braves, old habits are har to change. I would take our team, rotation and pen over any team in the NL East, ANY TEAM !!! With the Red Sox loss of Schilling I would even say the AL East as well. We have a yound and hungry team that is tempered with expierenced players that are older. We are not putting the weight of the team on the backs of these players. Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton are all injuries waiting to happen and Larry, its time to hang up the shoes. We gave the Phillies the NL East last season, they did not take it. They played over there heads and the swwp proves it. LETS GO METS !!!
Well, we have to give the Devil their due. It took a couple of really lousy weeks by us but they did catch fire at the right time.
I think you’re talking as a mets fan and not as an objectionable analyst. The Mets have 2 big “if’s” in their rotation – that being their #2 and #3 best starting pitchers in Martinez and Hernandez. Atlanta’s top 3 is set with Smoltz, Hudson, and Glavine. Now I don’t view Hudson higher tha a good #3 guy – but I do put him higher than Maine and Ollie – if for nothing else than his consistency in being a guy who comes out and more often than not gives his team a chance to win – sort of like Glavine I guess – who’s a #3 in my mind as well. Regardless, their top 3 is pretty dam good, and while ours (Santana, Pedro, Duque) is way better, the questions about our guys’ health are far greater. #4 adn #5 spots are in reverse: Atlanta’s is much better if healthy – and I don’t want to hear you crybabies, you know that a healthy Hampton and James will beat Maine and Perez over the course of the season – albeit not by much. The only difference here is that the Mets have guys who are still learning in Main and Perez, whereas the Braves have already reached their potential with Hampton and James, and are just hoping that they can come back to form.
Overall, IF both teams have healthy rotations, I’ll take Santana, Pedro, Duque, Maine, and Perez any day – as will probably any major league manager. I think that with Schilling falling out, the best rotation in baseball gotta be the Mets or the Padres – it’s close, but again, reliant on the big IF everyone is healthy. But don’t be naive and underestimate the Braves – IF they remain healthy, they have an abundance of pitching – Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, Hampton, James, Juerrgens, Reyes, the latter two being one of the two top young guns today. They are lefty loaded and can cause tons of trouble to the Mets lineup. Their main weakness is their bullpen – not their starting rotation.
Well, Maine and Perez are better than Glavine (a #5 now) and Hudson if he is at best a #3.
The question with the Mets is more will they stay healthy, not will they be good. The Braves have both quesitons with some guys, and at least 1 with all of them.
Smoltz and Glavine are as old as Duque. Hudson is erratic. and what is 4 and 5? hampton and ?
You can’t say that Glavine is a #5. 13-8 in 34 starts with 200 innings and a 4.45 ERA. I think the Mets will take that kind of production out of their #5 spot all year long. Hudson is a good #3 – he is reliable and proven, not erratic. 16-10 224 innings, 3.33 ERA. That’s erratic? That’s a good season. Pedro had comparable numbers in 2005 and was considered an ace. Granted, Hudson is no Pedro, but he’s certainly not erratic. Their #5 is either Chuck James if he’s healthy or Juerrgens who they traded Renteria for. Kid has a huge upside coming in from the AL. Smoltz and Glavin may be as old as Duque but they have pitched 200 innings (or close to it) consistently over the past 3 years. The question about El Duque’s health is much greater. Please don’t kid yourself. Any baseball GM will take Hudson/Glavine any day over Maine/Perez. Any knowledgeable baseball fan would agree with that.
Sorry , but I ll take Santana, Pedro , and Ollie ..against them in a best of 3 anyday! Even if I wasnt a huge Mets fan.
This might change, but right now, Maine is better than Perez.
I agree
I agree, but only in the sense that I think its easier to see Maine becoming a consistent and reliable pitcher. But don’t forget, he’s actually a bit older than Ollie and has less pro experience. Perez still has a huge gap between what he currently is and his ceiling. Maine does not. Perez may always have that gap, but a lot of people are writing him off as a guy whose going to be inconsistent throughout his career. This may be true, but even pitchers like that with Ollie’s kind of stuff and makeup often have one or two dominant ace type seasons. I feel Ollie will accomplish at least this. The question is when.
The other thing about these two, if I had to pick which one I wanted to make 30+ starts for me in 2008, I’d probably take Maine. But, going game by game, team by team, I’d probaby prefer Ollie in almost every individual matchup. Especially in the NL East when the Phillies and Braves both lost arguably their most potent right handed bats. Only against the really righty heavy teams like the Cubs and perhaps Tigers if it hypothetically came to that in the WS would I take Maine. Against more balanced and lefty heavy lineups, I’d typically prefer Perez. I’d almost certainly take him against the Phillies and Braves (remember how he destroyed the Braves last year?).
You Do Realize Maines only 3 months older right?
Maine is more consistent then Ollie but Ollie has the higher potential. But they are the same age.
i agree with most posts. perez is alittle better, left handed and throws harder. maine though has more movement and better control. its very hard to pick which pitcher is better. perez is soo dominant when hes one but he can also go out there and be so terrible that he doesnt make it past the 1st inning.
i trully believe maine will be better because he doesnt make fly ball like ollie and is more consistant. remember people, he hurt himself last year and pitched threw it the entire second half (although he did get rocked a few times) he also pitched a gem the 2nd to last game of the season when we needed it and ollie did not.
truth is though id much rather have those two the glavine and hudson. glavine is old and if he doesnt get the extra 3 inches off the corner of the plate he gets rocked. hudson was great but got hurt and old real fast
I don’t think any Met fan will ever dismiss the Braves, and there’s a lot reasons to think they’ll be good this year.
But if you read Rosenthal’s article, there’s a lot of “coulds” in it that rest on the performances of either very young players or guys recovering from injury.
Not ready to coronate the Mets. I’ll just I like our chances and leave it at that.
just *say* I like our chances
couldnt say it any better myself. as we all learned last year, we have to play the games. we open the season against the marlins, braves and then philly at home. i would lovvvveeee to go 8-2 or 9-1 right out the box just to show them last year is forgotten
I like our chances too, but Ill tell you….Mets bashing has become quite popular. But seriously, the Braves have Chipper and Tex. Chip will most likely miss a bunch of games and that just leaves Tex. How can ANYONE say that the Braves are better….honestly….
The Phils, I have to admit. They do scare me, but thats just against us. They still have to play other teams. I think that with the subtraction of Rowand they aren’t better than last year. Feliz was a good pick-up, but I dont think he will replicate the same numbers as Rowand last year….
I just wish we could get some credit….
mccann is an excellent hitter and franceour, though streaky, if hot is a scary hitter to face.
McCann had a great 06, but tailed off considerably last year. I think 06 will end up being his career year and last year is more like the level of production he’ll put up.
totally agree. plus hes fat as hell and that cant be good for a catcher in the dog days
We have an edge at SS and CF, but other than that, the Braves beat us around the diamond (CA, 2B, 1B, RF). I feel Alou/Diaz and Chipper/DWright is a push. Chipper put up DWright’s numbers last year while missing a fair number of games. We do have more speed and better defense. But I think that it will all come down to the bullpen like it did in 2007 and 2006. The team that does the best innings 6 to 9 will win it.
Chipper / DWright is not a push.
Chipper had a great year, no doubt, but Chipper had one of his best seasons ever at age 35 last year. Wright was 24. Do you really expect Chipper to match Wright again this year? I say no. Plus DWright is a 30/30 man.
I also think Castillo/Johnson is closer to a push. Johnson is a better all around hitter, but Castillo isn’t here to hit homers, and his D is much better than Johnson’s.
Diaz/Alou is only a push b/c of Alou’s injury risk. When both are healthy, Alou is a more dangerous hitter.
Isn’t it convenient that in the column position-by-position breakdown he neglected ro mention the SHORTSTOP position??? Yea, I can see the Braves having a huge advantage there….
As a whole, the way the Mets offense works is superior to that of the Braves offense. Reyes gets on, Castillo lets him run or moves him over, then Wright comes up, followed by the Carlos and Carlos slugging company. And remember Wright and Beltran also happen to have speed to get in scoring position for the bottom of the lineup. That’s how a lineup works. McCann, Tex, and Francoeur are dangerous, but without Andruw in the lineup, even with his bad 07, I don’t see the offense as that big a threat.
And I’ll take Santana, Pedro, Perez, Maine, and Duque/Pelfry over 40+ Smoltz and Glavine, lmao Mike Hampton, Chuck James, and anyone else the Braves throw out there. Let’s not even talk about the Phillies rotation after Cole Hamels and maybe Brett Myers.
I can see them comparing at short…as I said below, Escobar looked pretty good there last year
the braves when healthy have a pretty scary 3-6 lineup ill give them that but their bullpen is more of a question mark than ours and 2 of their starters are ancient, 1s incredibly streaky, 1 hasnt pitched a full season in god knows when and i cant even name the 5th guy as of now.
Yeah, I love how he breaks it down position by position, while neglecting to even mention short stop, a position at which the Braves certainly fall short of the Mets and Phils.
I don’t know, that kid Escobar looked pretty good last year on both sides of the ball
But is he in the same class as Reyes and Rollins? They’re MVP caliber players…I don’t think anyone is gonna mistake Escobar for that caliber yet (or likely ever).
you’re probably right, I’m just saying it’s not like they have a black hole there.
I really wonder if the Mets wil be the ‘fashionable’ choice…everything we’ve been seeing says “don’t hand the Mets the world series yet!” In fact, the national columnists have been dismissing the Mets as much as anything else, saying aquiring Johan is big, but not big enough. Whatever, we’ll see in September who’s for real.
Sorry, but though I will always take the Braves seriously, until their management demonstrates consistently that I shouldn’t, we are at least as strong as they and the Phillies are.
yea i was gonna say “who is picking the mets to win the division?” last i checked other than some people in our comments section no one is. all we still hear about is the collapse. and how the phillies and braves have improved. the amazing thing about it is if glavine were still a met the media would bash us for having an old starting staff but he goes to the braves and suddenly hes 28 and the braves have a dominant rotation.
glavine is very overrated. hes making the hall of fame due to his atlanta days when he would get 4 inches off the outside corner.
if he had pitched his whole career the way he did for the mets he wouldnt have 300 wins or even he talked about in the same sentence than as the hall of fame.
honestly glavine is no better than livan hernandez. they both have an 85 mph fastball and work off there breaking pitches. the only thing thats good about both is that they eat innings but again, there not good innings
I have to admit that, if you just compare position by position, the Braves do look stronger on paper.
But that doesn’t take into account the balance of a lineup, let alone defense and pitching.
The Mets lineup AND bullpen seem clearly superior to Atlanta, and that’s much more important than whether they have a couple of better position players offensively.
I do not fear or worry about the Braves, their old rotation will kill the bullpen, as we saw happen to our beloved last year. Phils can hit, but they will miss Rowand more than they realize. Victorino is fragile, playing 150+ will be difficult for him.
Lidge will blow a bunch of games in Philly, watch out if he faces Pujols there as well, he may just hit one into the Delaware.
i agree. philly has a better lineup but since pitching wins they fall wayyyyyy short. people need to realize that we gave away the division and still finished with 88 wins.
replacing glavine with santana has to be minimum 5-6 wins.
replacing shaun green with ryan church has to be worth 4-5 wins. remember shaun had a good april and may and thats about it. plus he has no range and i can remember plenty of balls shaun (my hat falls off every time i run) green. church is far superior as an all around player, his hitting is very close.
i think this exact article was published in 2006 and 2007 as well.. don’t writers learn?
The Braves do not scare me at all. Their lineup is not as good with out renteriia and is not as good as the mets. Their b-pen stinks and starters are old. The Mets will TATOO Tommy G every time! Hampton is hurt already.
In fact, adding to my previous comment, I’m really disappointed in Rosenthal, who is usually so good, for the way this article is written and presented. It’s an awful and blatant case of only citing the statistics and situations that back up what he’s arguing, while completely ignoring anything that goes against him. He cites every possibility for things falling right for the Braves, while citing every possibility of things going wrong for the Mets, but very little the other way around.
I also don’t understand how he can cite the Braves pen as a strength, or say things like that Hudson is comparable to Santana.
The team lost two of its top 4 offensive talents, and he expects it to get better offensively. The Mets, one stop behind them last year in runs scored, lost Paul LoDuca and Shawn Green…hardly the same as Andruw Jones and Edgar Renteria.
The article just screams bias, and I don’t expect that from Rosenthal.
yeah, hudson = santana? wtf?
It’s all about getting people to click on the link and what better way to do that than to antagonize the fans of the largest media market in the world.
no mention of short stops in this article
Ken Rsenthal is taking the buster onley route. wow
“The Mets will be a fashionable pick to reach the World Series – too fashionable…”
Ummm…the Mets have been a favorite to be in the WS each of the last 2 years, was it fashionable then too?
thought the article was fair. it’s going to be a lot closer than people want to believe. before santana it was an equal 3 team race. now, it’s a slight edge to the mets.
injuries and career years play a big factor in division races. last year the mets had tons of injuries and few players with career years (wright was it).
this is SOOOO AMATEUR, he left out shortstop!!!!! you could argue that both the mets and phillies overall best players are THEIR SHORTSTOPS! and he left them out. Also i think when doing OF you should just go 3 vs 3 not position by position. if you go all 3 OFers id give the mets the advantage. and if you go entire infield i give the phils a slight advantage with the braves a VERY distant 3rd place. i love how injuries effect alou’s ratings but not chippers, wtf.
Plus, comparing Kelly Johnson to Castillo is just dumb. They’re different types of players. And Castillo is without a doubt better defensively, even on one leg. Plus, are we ready to anoint him after one season?
I agree with you about OF, you should rank them and then compare, so:
Beltran > Francoeur >Burrell
Church > Diaz > Victorino
Alou > Jenkins/Werth > Braves CF
Diaz is essentially a RH church. He may be a “lefty masher” according to Rosenthal, but Church is a “lefty masher” and guess which hand most pitchers throw with? And while Diaz is better against righties than Church is against lefties, Church is a better defender. So that’s my argument for Church > Diaz.
Alou could fall out of bed in the dead of winter and crush a fastball… the dude can flat out hit. Even with his injury issues, I would rather have him than whoever Atlanta has in CF. Sure, I could end up with egg on my face for that remark, but right now their CF is an unknown quantity, so you have to go with Alou.
Also, adding Castro to the catching equation changes things:
McCann > Schneider/ Castro > Ruiz
Addendum: I forgot about Kotsay in CF, my bad. Still doesn’t change things imo… he’s declined a lot from his hey day. And let’s face it, he was never anyone who scared you to begin with.
well the braves have won 16 straight divisions titles oh wait
how are the braves good? this is the same team that couldn’t get the job done last fall, plus glavine who was not very good last year, minus andruw jones, renteria and octavio dotel.
i don’t think they are even in the conversation.
The loss of Andruw Jones will really hurt them defensively. I think Glavine will also hurt them. Glavine was not good at all last year and even though he did make every start and “eat up innings” he killed our bullpen. Chuck James and Hampton dont’ scare me at all. The Braves bullpen is also a big question mark. Soriano is a good set up man but never seems confortable as a closer.
I still think the Phillies are going to be our biggest competition. Aaron Rowand was a key player for them last year offensively and defensively. Their lineup and bench are tremendous. Their pitching isn’t that bad either. Hamels is very good, Myers is decent, Moyer is solid, and Kendrick was really good for them last year.
Aaron Rowand was the heart and sole of that team. they just lost there leader and hardest working player. there going to be totally different. yea felix can hit homers but thats about all he does (252 avg).
watch this team digress
Personally, I like the Braves’ lineup better than Philly’s. Rollins, Howard, and Utley are superb, however Burrell is solid, but not spectacular. Victorino is a solid role player, but nothing special; same for their catcher. Their RF platoon should work out well if Jenkins stays healthy, but again, not exactly losing sleep over them. And what is with everyone talking up Pedro Feliz? He STINKS! The Giants, who are likely going to be batting RAY DURHAM cleanup, declined to resign this guy. Sure, he’s hit 20+ homers the last 4 seasons, but the guy’s OPS was BARELY over .700 and his OBP was BELOW .300. That’s awful. This guy is the poster child for why RBI is a ridiculous stat.
But the Braves lineup is pretty much loaded, even without Renteria and Jones (let’s face it, Andruw was not that good last year.) However, with that said, I would caution Rosenthal in his position by position analysis. Chipper had a career year last year. Can we expect a repeat performance, even if healthy? I say it’s doubtful. I think Wright is the hands down better player. It may be closer than I want to admit, but I don’t think there is anyone who follows baseball who would say Chipper is better than David. As of now, the Mets have large advantages at CF and SS over the Braves, and the catching disparity is not as bad when you bring Castro into the discussion (Willie mentioned Castro getting about 60 games this year, and Rosenthal completely left him out of the discussion.) LF and 1B are definitely question marks for us, but Church continues to get no respect from anybody, be it Mets fans or the media. The guy had a solid season last year. Franceour is definitely better, but Church isn’t exactly Ryan Langerhans.
The bottom line is the Mets are probably the most balanced team in the division. A nice combo of sluggers and line drive hitters in the lineup, great D up the middle, and a very solid rotation with the potential to be spectacular (depending on Pedro and Maine/Perez showing they’re for real.) Rosenthal can’t be faulted for questioning the pen, but it’s like Mark Shapiro said in ‘06, re: the Cleveland Bullpen. A big reason for the Pen’s struggles was due to the starters being incapable of going 6+ innings. Those guys were flat our dead tired by August.
Anyway, I’ll end my rant there. The Braves certainly have a chance to make some noise, but Rosenthal did not present all sides of this story. To not mention SS and Castro at all or the fact that the bullpen struggles could be attributed to being overworked just doesn’t is not presenting the whole story.
nice rant! and right on re feliz…he’ll def hit some out of that park, but otherwise he stinks
Seriously, I am just dumbfounded by the Feliz love. My boy is a huge Giants fan (he’s from San Fran) and he HATED Feliz.
He has a great glove and is a decent option as a 7 or 8 hitter, but to expect him to come close to Rowand’s ‘07 production is ridiculous. As is including him in the same paragraph as DWright.
feliz’s career OBP is under .300. that should tell you everything. he SUCKS.
When I look at the Braves I see a team that won barely over 81 games last season and was swept out of contention by the Mets when they couldn’t beat the Marlins and Nationals consistently…and from there lost Andruw Jones, Edgar Renteria, Ron Mahay, and Octavio Dotel while adding Glavine and Mark Kotsay.
Maybe I’m ignoring that they will “play properly.” What is this, Little League?
The Braves are done. Position by position? I give them C, 1B, and RF…and maybe 2B. Their rotation is old, their bullpen has far more questions than ours…I mean come on.
i really can’t get over that he forgot shortstop
this needs to be mocked in the main post
What I always find a bit strange is the position to position comparison from an offensive perspective. I think perhaps a more meaningful analysis would be a line-up to line-up comparison just because each slot in the line-up has different responsibilities.
Reyes/Escobar: Reyes, hands down
Castillo/Johnson: Castillo
Wright/Jones: I’ll take Wright because of his durability
Beltran/Texeira: Tex
Delgado/Fancouer: Francoeur
Alou/McCann: If healthy, Alou
Church/Diaz: Church
Schneider/Kotsay: jury out
5 out of 8, in my opinion, favors the Mets
4 of 7 then…
According to Rosenthal, “NL rules this year, in a revolutionary change, will do away with the position of shortstop. Also, relief pitchers will be required to pitch from inside their bullpen cars.”
Position by position comparisons mean nothing no matter how you stack them. Who did the 1988 Dodgers beat position by position?
Teams win, not collctions of indivdiduals.
As for Kenny, you won’t trust an outfit that blew a 7-game lead but you will trust the one outfit they handled easily while doing so? Makes perfect sense to me.
Last September has no more relevance to 2008 than does the Phillies getting swept in October. Let it go.
its all about pitching, forget the lineups.
mets top 2:
johan
pedro
phils top 2:
hamels
myers
braves top 2:
smoltz
hudson
but look at 3 and 4
maine
perez
phils
moyer
kendrick
braves
glavine
hampton*
the mets have more depth
I disagree on Tex over Beltran. You cannot take his speed and high base stealing percentage lightly. IT has to be taken into account. The other numbers are even.
it all comes down to delgado. if he hits then all of the sudden shneider and church will see some pitches to hit.
yeah i saw a stat that once the nats got more protectino for him in willy mo pena last year church hit something like .314 the rest of the year..im sure most of that was due in part to facing the mets but a nice stat no less
so let me get this straight: it really doesn’t matter if the mets got johan or not, even though he’s the game’s best pitcher, its still not enough, but yet, every “expert” has said the mets desperately need an ace to put them over the top.
damned if you do, damned if you don’t
met bashing=a-rod getting booed
the trendy thing to do
The retard didn’t even rate SS.
so i no longer like rosenthal i guess…he talks ab ppl underating the brave and i think he underates the mets just a tad…he also fails to bring up ss in comparing the teams…both reyes and rollins should be “superior” to yunel escobar…AND I don’t know if anyone might agree with me on this but with santana on the mets assuming that he gets 35 starts…i really think the mets can win around 25 of those games…so lets just say they need a minimum of 90 wins to make the playoffs…that means they need roughly 65 wins out of the remaining 127 games…which is basically .500 and i think everyone here would agree that the mets were atleast a .500 team before the acquisition of santana…they can win roughly 35 of ollie and maines starts prob more and can easily win 30 of the games pitched by pedro/elduque/pelfrey…ANYONE AGREE?
no, i think we’re in trouble if we can’t have reyes at shortstop, which no longer exists.
dammit omar! you should have traded reyes when he still had a position!
haha lol
You pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Remember, Johan is not replacing Glavine… Pedro replaced Glavine.
Johan is almost pure profit from a performance standpoint. We were looking at either Johan or a #5 type starter. He is taking a spot that was filled by Pelfrey/Sosa/Lawrence last season. Sosa was decent for a while, but Pelfrey was terrible in his first stint with the big team and we all know about the Brian Lawrence Project.
You know what? At the end of the day this team has always succeeded when it’s an underdog. Braves certainly had every reason and opportunity to win the east last year and couldn’t come close to sealing the deal. If people want to buy into the Hudson and Smoltz “two-headed monster” and Hampton and Glavine pitching like its 1999, let them.
Everybody and they’re moms is salty that that Mets got Santana. Therefore, everybody will be fishing for reasons why the Mets WON’T win. It’s like the Patriots. Everybody was sick of hearing about the perfect season, that’s why even Cowboys and Eagles fans were rooting for Big Blue.
hah so funny that you say that. i met a girl tonite that was an eagles fan. i told her i was a giants fan. she said that she hates us, the cowboys and pats (because of all there hype) but she was rooting for us the win the superbowl.
point of the story….everyone hates when the best team gets even better. were going to win 95-98 games this year boys. get your tickets to shea!
one thing more…did the writer’s forget the Mets were in 1st place all of 2006, and almost all last season until the last day? On paper, the 2008 team is better than the 2006 and 2007 teams just because we have much more depth in the starting rotation than the previous 2 seaons. Remember Steve Trachsel, Lima, Lawrence, Chan Ho Park? Church is an upgrade over Green, Schneider over LoDuca is a wash, a healthy, fresh Pedro Martinez AND Santana? I mean, really….
also that braves faux mr. met is really the worst thing ever
Don’t forget the trading deadline and who might be in a better financial position to help the team…
Phillies and Braves are two very good teams and if one was i nthe NL west and one in the Central all 3 teams would be in the playoffs….this has to be the best division in terms of competitiveness in all of baseball, no other diviision has 3 legits….
dunno who said it above but what I think sets the Mets apart from the other two is the #3& 4 starters…i actually think our 1&2 are slightly worse than the other teams because I full suspect Pedro to get hurt (pessimistic mets fan anyone?) but maine & OP at 3&4 are so superior to any team’s #3/4 in the league its not even close…
btw, anyone else have this feeling that Schneider bats .280 this year, Ryan Church is amazing, Delgado resergence and Beltran and Dwright & Maine all struggle to start the year? just me…thoguht so
Delgado was battling post surgery blues last year. I fully expect him to do better than he did last year. The same with Pedro. Even if he is 80% of the Pedro that Boston had that still makes him the favorite against any other starter in the NL East. People forget, as someone above me said, the Mets, without Pedro, full of injuries, and relying on a weak and depleted bullpen were still in 1st place throughout the entire season up until the last game. based on that knowledge, how can any sane analyst say the Phillies or the Braves have any chance. The Mtes of last year acquired the best pitcher in baseball, have at least an 80% Pedro, and the best depth of either of those teams. Lets not forgot that both the Phillies and Braves have lost a key player or two as well and have done little nothing to shore up their rotations…The Mets are the team the beat…hands down…it wouldn’t be called a collapse if they werent an amazing team…
This has to be the worst article that he has ever written. There is no way to compare the Braves to the Phillies or the Mets in potential. Yes if the Braves old people rejuvinate themselves and the youngsters step up they can stay competitive. Blah Blah. That’s prob. not going to happen at the same time.
Lets actually look at this.
Santana> Hudson=Hamels Santana has less of an injury risk than either
Smoltz>Pedro>Myers Who knows how this trio will pitch
Ok that’s the easy part, this is where we def. come out on top for rotation.
Maine>Kendrick>Hampton Kendrick put up decent stats but who knows and Hampton :).
Perez>Glavine>Moyer That one is easy enough.
Elduque>James>Eaton Elduque might be injury prone but he may win more in half the starts of these others.
The guy has the nerve to mention our #6-8 starters as if they will have more influence than the fact the Braves rotation has just as much chance of injury as the Mets.
Lineup
McCann>Schnieder=Ruiz Mets have better backup
Tex=Howard>Delgado If injury then they are all screwed
Utley>Johnson>Castillo Mets have plenty of depth here
Rollins=Reyes>Escobar All screwed
Wright>Chipper>Feliz Same
Alou=Burrell>Diaz Edge to Braves with potential youth?
Beltran>Victarino>Kotsay Same?
Francoeur>Church>Jenkins Same?
Bullpen
I will spend no time looking at the Phillies. It’s horrible, even Lidge is questionable.
Wagner>>>Soriano
Gonzalez=Sanchez
Moylan looks nice but I still say he will be no better than Heilman in the long run
Feliciano>Ohman
After that who even knows who will be in Braves pen?
There is no way that I can see that the Braves will be back in the race unless the Mets or Phillies fall apart again. I see them no better than an 80 win team unless they find a fountain of youth or something.
I doesn’t matter how well Santana, Pedro, Perez. or Maine pitch if the bullpen pitchers don’t win the games for them…..
Our pen may not be great or even good for that matter but I gotta believe the Braves will be the Pen cellar-dwellars…AGAIN…
Go Tyler Yates & Royce Ring, take our rejects
Here is to DWright naming his first kid Turner…FU CHipper
Braves added Glavine
Mets added Santana
No bigger mismatch than that
I think it clearly comes down to a couple of things not mentioned.
Mets clearly have a better BP than the other teams
Mets bench has some great PH. Castro, Anderson and Easley are some of the best PH in the game for my bet anyway.
Mets defense is clearly better than the other two.
Mets 3-5 pitchers are lightyears ahead of the other teams on paper.
Does anyone even notice that our 3-5 won 39 games last year with Elduque injured for half the season?
Braves
Hampton, Glavine, James 24 even if you give Hampton 12 that’s not enough.
Phillies
Kendrick, Moyer, Eaton 34 and that’s with some horrible numbers.
no mention of bench either …mets have the best bench in the division
marlon anderson…damion easely…castro…endy….
and i will take half a year from moises over a full year of matt diaz anyday…
LF – advantage Mets
CF – advantage Mets
RF – advantage Braves
1B – advantage Braves
2B – advantage Mets
SS – advantage Mets
3B – advantage Mets
C – advantage Braves
Bench – advantage Mets
SP – advantage Mets
Bullpen – advantage Mets
the only overwhelming advantages they have are on RF and C
I would give 2nd at least a toss up.
a healthy castillo>>>>>johnson on his best day
it’s a matter of castillo being healthy, same thing with alou, martinez, and delgado…dont get me wrong, the team has question marks
but i dont think the rotation/bullpen is gonna be one of them
and u know that reyes,wright,beltran should give u 140 games at least…
if alou,delgado are healthy and mashing, reyes, wright and beltran are scoring 100 runs a piece…
1B is an overwhelming advantage to. But I’d give the RF nod to the Mets over the Braves. Francoeur lifetime OPS+(On base plus slugging compared to league average) 100. Church: 113. Francoeur is the better defender though.
Come on guys keep in mind last year before the collaspe Rosenthal was the guy sayin on SNY “Can anyone beat the mets”. Hes just trying to get publicity. Hes a bandwagon jumper like the rest of the media
I think the three teams are pretty close. There are always questions and what-ifs.
Of the three, the Phillies have the offensive threat to overcome poor pitching more than the Braves and the Mets. I like the Mets chances very much. I think they have the best starting rotation 1-5. I also think they have the best bullpen, overall.
I think the Phillies and the Mets have the better infield defense. I think the Mets have the better outfield defense of the three, especially when Chavez is in LF.
I can’t stand it when these so called experts do comparisons by position. They really need to compare defensive abilities by position, then compare the lineups.
But these arguments will always be there like DiMaggio vs. Williams and Willie vs. Mick vs. Duke.
Everybody is right and everybody is wrong.
Rosenthal was paid off by Tom Glavine.
I find it laughable that he didn’t compare pitching staffs considering pitching is what wins games most often.
“Max, have you ever even played baseball.”
- Roy Hobbs to reporter Max Mercy in “The Natural”
This quote has and always will apply to guys like Rosenthal.
In fact….MetsBlog as a whole should be ashamed of itself for allowing this worm to incite us and produce a 70+ post thread in response.
People still think o fthe Braves as the team that one 14 straight division titles. This team has two really old guys in their rotation and Tim Hudson, that’s it. While I respect Glavine & Smoltz, they have to get old sooner or later. They relpaced Andru Jones w/Mark Kotsay. Are you kidding me? No more Renteria. Who are they going to get outs from in the 6th-9th innings? The Braves are a paper tiger……..I hope.
Mets fans need to get over this fear of the Braves. They are not that talented of a team, and they are very old in key positions. There is absolutely no reason to fear the Braves more than the Phillies, and this bs about ‘playing the game right’ is just that…bs. Did the Phils not run through a wall last year to win the division?
It will be a close race.
But of all 3, the Braves are #3. They’re the team with the most age questions (3/5 of their rotation, and Larry) Chuck James won’t last the season with his tender shoulder either.
The Mets upgraded immensely in pitching this season:
Johan/Pedro/Maine/Ollie/Duque
vs
Glavine/Duque/Maine/Ollie/Pelfray-Lawrence-Vargas-Sosa
Massive upgrades in the #1 spot, decent upgrade in #2 spot, HUGE upgrade at #5.
The Phils added Myers, which allows them a nice upgrade at #2. The Braves added Glavine, a decent upgrade at #3. (Jurrjens though will be great in the future)
Offenses for all 3 will be similar, though I’d say Phils-Mets-Braves is the order.
It’s all on the pen. Wagner-Soriano-Lidge closers? SLight edge Mets. Middle relief? Slight edge Braves.
Manager? Huge edge Braves.
Overall, you gotta think Mets take it. They were 1 games behind last season, added the best pitcher on the planet in his prime. Didn’t lose offense, and (we hope) beefed their up the middle defense up as well.
Easy call here
Ken is stupid, he didnt mention pitching staffs or shortstop…why are we even paying his article any attention?
Exactly. These articles are meant to stir us Met fans up and get more readers for him. Ignore his bullcrap. Biased anti-Met media know in their hearts that we are the team to beat in 2008.
It took us completly falling apart for the Phillies to win the East. That will not happen again. We didnt have Pedro for a full year and we replaced an old, and done Glavine with Johan Santana. Santana doesnt just give us a slight edge. He puts us over the top. The Braves line-up doesnt come close to ours. Chipper is getting older and injury prone and their starters minus Hudson are so frail. I realize Pedro and El Duque are injury prone but we have Johan, Maine, Perez, and Pelfrey as 4 starters who stay healthy. Smoltz and Glavine are old. Since when is Chuck James good? Hampton is always hurt. Their bullpen doesnt compare to ours either. This comparison is making me sick. We will own the Braves this year. Just wait and see.
As for the Phillies they will challenge us more than the Braves and no matter what are the reigning NL East champs. However getting Santana cant be downplayed by anyone! This was a tremendous upgrade for our pitching. Reyes will be more consistent and at 25 we still havent seen the full potential of Wright which is scary. Beltran usually has one year on and one year off. This year is his turn to be on. We have a tremendous bench as well. I can go on and on but I dont want to write a novel here. Bottom line is everything is in our favor this year to dominate the East. I am not worried one bit about either of those teams. We will be in the World Series. I would bet anything on it. Lets all start acting like a confident fanbase and believe in our team. Lets Go Mets!
This is an article I’d like to see FJM rip on.
I don’t see any improvement to the Braves. NONE. So what justifies that they do better this year then their not so good last year?
Understandably, they had a very good second half. HOWEVER, how they will do against Santana and Lidge and in a full season is a question.
I’d also love to mention that Rosenthal feels that Glavine will remain strong and Hampton will “return.” And if he returns he will do “well.” He cites the improvement of Martin Prado offensively because of one scout’s belief of his winter. He mentions how Omar Infante will be a huge help. Yeah, uh, WHAT? Anyways, in his position-by-position analysis, HE FORGOT SHORTSTOPS AND PITCHERS! I’d rather have Reyes than J-Rol or Escobar in 2008 and then on. He also thinks that the difference between Chavez and Diaz is so astronomical that it is life and death. More so than, say, Carlos Beltran to Mark Kotsay? He also seems to like the oft-injured and past his prime Chipper Jones to David Wright. He doesn’t even mention how good the Mets are. He just says players on the Braves roster, many of which aren’t so good, and says nothing of the Mets.
Anyway, he also gives a negative for Billy Wagner and says this based on his second half 3.90 ERA, which is mainly because of his ANNUAL DEAD ARM that was handled poorly by Willie. Let him be the first to say that Wagner is in decline despite his 2.63 ERA. Wait, there’s more! He praises Rafael Soriano, Tyler Yates, Mike Gonzalez (back from major surgery) and other pitcher’s I haven’t heard of and implied that they were better than Aaron Heilman, Pedro Feliciano, Matt Wise, Duaner Sanchez (also back from surgery) and the other more talented individuals in the Mets bullpen.
Lastly, he cites “grit” in his article. Ken Rosenthal, never ever talk about the Mets ever.
PS…
The Mets rotation is also far superior.
Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, Hampton and James just don’t stack up to Santana, Martinez, Perez, Maine, and Hernandez.
Rosenthal underestimates what Delgado is capable of, and while he’s right that Howard and Texeira are better, he should not dismiss Delgado’s threat.
He underestimates Church as well, and goes on to overestimate many of the Braves. Matt Diaz? Who?
And I find it interesting that he doesn’t bring up pitching much, where the Mets have the clear edge.
I won’t forget them, but the Mets clearly have the best shot to unseat the Phills.
Considering how the Mets have finished behind the Phils 6 of the last 7 years, you’d think you’d show them a little more respect. You finished ahead of the Braves more often in those years.
Braves fan here, I won’t venture a prediction on the NL east race other than to say it has 3 top notch teams barring a serious run of injuries.
Picking up Santana helps the Mets immeasurably.
The position vs position matchups are fun to look at but like some others have mentioned I like comparing batting orders for a judge of offensive ability.
Won’t do it here other than to say no GM in the game including your own thinks Castillo is better than Kelly Johnson.
Not even close.
true. but castillo is still above average and good in the 2 hole after reyes. the one thing i can say for sure is that this 3 team slugfest is gonna be fun to watch all year! LETS GO METS!
sorry David but i disagree. first off castillo with a brokern knee last year plays better defense than johnston.
now, considering they both bat second, and that you want your #2 hitter to get on or move your #1 hitter over, than castillo is better. johnston struck out 117 times to castillo’s 45.
now if your talking power than its without question johnston but you do not need power form the #3 spot in your order. your power bats are 3-6.
david, your right …. but CAstillo is the PERFECT FIT for this team in the 2 hole with REYEs in front of him …. PERFECT
cant wait for the mets to silence all doubters just like the giants did. Bring on the phils and braves! i for one predict another subway world series but this time with a different outcome!
I’m sorry, but, I fail to see where either of the Braves or Phillies improved this off-season. Even if Escobar is the goods, he sti;; has to replace the production of Renteria. And Kotsay is a major downgrade from Jones. Glavine gives them innings, but, frankly, I’d take Maine, Perez and El Duque over him. And, the bullpen is suspect.
Meanwhile, the Phillies may have upgraded their #2 starter in Myers, but, it remains to be seen if Lidge can equal Myers’ production as closer. The outfield dropped, due to the loss of Rowand, since I don’t see Jenkins being as productive, and his defense is worse than Victorino’s, while replacing Rowand with Victorino is at best a wash. They upgraded the defense at 3rd. And, 3-5 in the rotation is a crapshoot.
Meanwhile, it took until game 160 to get the Mets out of 1st place. They’ve upgraded defensively in RF and catcher, and should get better production in RF by adding Church and subtracting Green. They’ve subtracted the God-awful Mota from the pen. ON top of all of this, they’ve added the BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL THE PAST FIVE SEASONS. In a supposed down year, he won 15 games, struck out 235 batters and had an ERA of 3.33…in a better hitters league, and in ballparks not nearly as pitcher friendly as Shea.
Frankly, the Phillies and Braves have teams capable of winning 87-89 games; the Mets have a team capable of winning 97-100 games. Don’t be shocked if the Mets win the division by double digits, especially, if we see players with variables, such as Pelfrey, Church, Maine and Perez, have the arrow go up, or Sanchez returns healthy, or a surprise like an Eddie Kunz helps to strengthen the bullpen.
i agree totally, jas. I think we can run away with it if we stay healthy and Delgado returns to form. Either way i cant wait for the ‘08 season to get here. Lets go Mets
i also cant see it… i see a met team that sleptwalked thru 3/4 of a season ,had an alltime meltdown and still only finished 1 game out… and they have signifigantly upgrade the rotation and team…
braves just werent very good, there a year older , their staff is long in the tooth and unkown back end…. the loss of jones is huge…. and texiera and glavine are not enough to overcome.. the age , bullpen and bench….. they also lost renteria and while the kid looks good he’s got growing pains of a full season to overcome..
phils…. losing rowand is so much more than most are giving credit for..victorrino is not in any way shape or form the equal of rowand in many many ways… 1 game better than a met team in meltdown… they have done nothing to get better……. nothing…
the mets will dominate ….
So get rid of everyone from last year, including Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Pedro, Maine, Ollie, Heilman, Castillo, Wagner…
Sounds smart.
you cant be serious. who do we replace willie with? was it his fault that the entire team forgot how to play baseball the last month of the season??
r u that other moron who always has something negative to say about the wilpons not speanding moeny??cause last i looked, they set a record for paying a pitcher.
and how would you run this team mrmetversion3.0?
Bring back Bobby V? Maybe Art Howe? Maybe Bobby Bo? give us an idea of what your thinking what you would do improve this HORRIBLE team….or else just shut up, go listen to mike & the mad dog, go play fantasy baseball and go watch the Royals so you tell us how smart Dayton Moore is….
this is a dare, put up or shut up
there is nothing “intelligent” about calling a team “gutless.” congratulations, you can copy the things terrible sportswriters say!
get a clue.
Seriously, are you calling someone out to an “intelligent rebuttal” after insulting the poster? You’re talking none sense. Who are you blaming for the collapse? Wilpon? What do you want Omar to do, dissolve the whole team? Get a clue, guy… They brought in Santana – that doesn’t tell you that they are trying to win? I’m glad people of your liking will be away from Shea this year. Please…go root for the Skankees…
so exactly who should get the credit for resurrecting the mets in 05?…bringing them to the cusp of ws in 06?
art howe?
steve phillips?
they had a collapse…they will be back…jeez…calm down fella…
Too much here to reply to one on one, but I do believe one thing.
With Valentine the collapse never would have happened.
I’d take Bobby V. over Willie any day of the week… and twice on Sunday!
yes bobby v. was a very good manager but everyone has to remember that willie has only been manging 3 years. hell do a better job this year and every year going forward.