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In his latest for SI.com, Jon Heyman talks about the recent ‘war of words’ between the Mets and Phillies.
Heyman writes…
“Beltran and other Mets types are understandably excited about the acquisition of ace pitcher Johan Santana. Yet the Mets should hold their tongues now for two very good reasons:
1) They had their chance last spring when Rollins spoke, but to a man, they were afraid to speak up, a reticence that was later reflected in the way they played — scared; and
2) Philly beat the Mets to a pulp down the stretch, winning the last seven head-to-head games.”
…if you’re interested in reading more about last year and heyman’s man love for rollins, then this is the article for you…the Phillies certainly did a number on the Mets head to head…there’s no denying that…and yet, it was still the Mets who flat out gave the division away, the Phillies didn’t exactly have to go on a tear to win it…anyway, enough already about last year...
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whatever, more media trying to generate hits. Nothing like hating on the greatest city in the world’s team to stir stuff up.
Man love isn’t the word….it looks like Rollins took him out for dinner last night and breakfast this morning
Sensitive much? Heyman is a New York guy and likes the Mets as much as the next mainstream journalist. This team should take its well-deserved lumps without the fans crying about it.
puh leeze, we took our lumps, and have hashed and rehashed those lumps non stop for the last five months. enough is enough.
It was clear from the video clip that Beltran was to a large degree joking around. I guess Heyman lacks a sense of humor. Or maybe he missed the video clip.
What Beltran did was genius. He got the media focusing on 2008 for the most part and talking less about the collapse. Yeah, the acquisition of Johan helped in that department too … but by Beltran saying that, joking or not, it got everyone focused on this year. Every once in a while guys like Heyman will bring up last year but the story now is the “rivalry”. Good job Beltran … now lets get it done on the field!
I credit the mole for Beltran’s marketing skills.
hahaha … that thing is big enough to have it’s own brain, you’ve got a point there.
Agreed. It was Beltran’s way of saying “lets move on.”
It was also significant because it signaled a new leadership approach from Beltran.
Definitely good signs from him. I’m liking it.
enough about the collapse. i really hope the mets explode out of the gate although people will still mention it ill at least feel a little better as a fan.
The only way we avoid the collapse being discussed all season is to clinch in August. So be it.
I got a good feeling about this season. Good enough that I don’t care how much people talk about last year, I’m looking forward.
htwz and am: HELL yes.
Excellent point.
PLEASE give up on the “Mets gave the division away” angle already. As a Mets fan, I think it is pathetic. The Phillies won the division in 2007. Deal.
Except that Phillies fans make it a point to emphasize the Mets choking away the division. So to them I ask, which is it? Did the Phillies win the division, or did the Mets choke it away?
How about you stop whining about how we describe last year? Think about it, do you ever hear anyone talk about how great the Phillies played down the stretch last year, or the Phillies great comeback? Nope.
Personally I think this rivalry’s going to be a little dry come June..Phillies just aren’t that good. They didn’t get better, and what’d they get? 89, 90 games? Mediocre at best.
Exactly. The “you can’t win, we can only lose attitude” is exactly what did this team in last year. I read/hear so many Met fans say they hope guys like Willie, Omar, Reyes, Beltran, Wagner, Delgado ect. learned from the collapse last year. We as fans could stand to do the same.
If the Mets went 6-4 over their last 10 games, they’d have won; if they went 5-5 it would’ve gone to a 1-game playoff.
Those games were against the Marlins and the Nationals, two sub-.500 teams.
How’s that not giving it away?
The Mets had 7 opportunities to win 1 game against the Phillies down the stretch. Credit the Phillies for beating us every time it counted.
Exactly … It’s not like the Mets weren’t trying to win those games. The fact is they got their backs put up against the wall and they crumbled.
And how many of those 7 games did we lose late due to fielding errors or bad BP pitching?
Even in the head-to-head games, we as much gave it away as they did win it. The Mets played badly against the Phillies.
Similar to the ‘06 LCS. This team has not inspired a lot of confidence in do or die circumstances.
They absolutely do deserve credit…They played very well down the strech, and turned it up when it mattered. That being said, The Mets also put the Phils in a position in which they could win the division.
The Mets did give it away, but it only happened because Philly put the pressure on.
Yeah the fielding errors were an indication of how they were responding to pressure. They couldn’t handle the pressure and they got beat. It was a good lesson that hopefully they grow from because the attitude that they had last year was the very attitude that put them in that position to get beat in the first place.
I guess what I’m saying is from now on they have to be the team putting the pressure on everyone. No laying back .. no downplaying. Go out there and punish everyone … every game.
they clearly “won” the division, for no reason other than they beat us in the last 7 games. if we win 1 of those games its a totally different story. thats a pretty big sample size, not like they beat us in 1 big game or 2 big games they beat us in 7 big games IN A ROW! apparently not enough of you read the SI article talking about the 5 stages of grief because youre all still in denial.
I’m so in denial that it’s like last year somehow doesn’t even matter anymore because now it’s this year! THank you for helping me see the light, SI!
Please. I’m going to get hated-on for this but we need to thicken our skins. Even if we “gave away” the division last year, the Phillies beat us in every big spot they could muster last year. Them Mets from top to bottom were outplayed, out managed, were poorly motivated, played scared and bottom line played poorly against the Phillies.
I’m as optimistic as you can get for 2008, but this refusal to give the Phillies any credit for what they did to the Mets on the field alone last year makes us look like a bunch of think-skinned sissies. Let’s admit we got our butts kicked and look to exact revenge in ‘08 now that we have more (and better) weapons are at disposal.
W ealso got out-umpired, but no, I’m not a conspiracy theorist. Just remembering that one AB with Reyes. . . .
Anyway, yes, they kicked our butts, but I like seeing the Mets rise up and express some confidence. If Rollins could talk in ‘07, the Mets can talk in ‘08. It’s a new year for the Phils, as well. They’ve had a winter to rest on the laurels of their epic four-and-out reign as Division Champs. They have to prove themselves again, too.
Oh, and a sportswriter questioning a team’s manhood and calling them afraid is a bit much. Heyman has “team manager” written all over him. I hope all of the quotes from Stark-like twerps calling the Mets “scared” or “afraid” are carved into the paint on every Met’s locker with an X-acto knife. They need to play with swagger.
And plunk Milledge the second he steps to the plate. No quarter.
I love the confidence. My beef is just with Mets fans that make excuses to belittle what happen last year. Personally, I’m a big fan of WANTING to win rather than expecting to.
No, I actually agree. (I’m hesitant to say they “played scared,” but they did look like they were playing with fine china instead of a baseball at times.) Making excuses seems a little pathetic. It’s very difficult to look at those two sweeps and see anything but an out and out arse-whooping. I just draw a distinction b/w the Heyman school — “if you were beaten, be submissive”, and the (ugh) Rollins’ school “if you were beaten, remain confident.”
What scares me, the fan, is that almost no one on the team expressed any indignation between sweeps — quickly building back a lead after the first sweep may have been worse in the long run than having to scrap for an entire month. It knocked them back into complacency, and the only Met to publicly express a desire for payback when the Phillies showed up at Shea in September isn’t here anymore — Lo Duca. We can hope that actually LOSING the division lead woke them up, and the war of words suggests that it has.
how on earth did winning baseball games make the mets worse in the long run?
Because, try as you might, you cannot make baseball games into “independent events.” (If you’re really troubled by this concept, think about the Phillies winning instead of the Mets losing.) Think the third game of a series against the Phillies is the same whether the Mets won or lost the previous two? Think again. All I am saying is that the Mets may have gone into that second series with the Phils with a sense of urgency had they been closer together in the standings. They win that series, and everything is different.
Them Mets from top to bottom were outplayed, out managed, were poorly motivated, played scared and bottom line played poorly against the Phillies.
This coming from the guy who constantly attacks me for criticizing Willie?
Wow.
No you get attacked (by more than just me mind you) because you ONLY come on this blog to attack Willie.
Learn the distinction between logic and hysteria and people might actually treat you and your opinions with some respect around here.
And you harping on me every time I criticize Willie (which has been numerous times the past three years) is getting as old and trite as your act in general.
Can’t be bothered bumping Heyman’s hit count… but if Matt’s quotes are indicitive (big if), then he’s an idiot.
(1) Isn’t this a good reason the Mets should speak up? If not doing so last year hurt them…
(2) True to a point. But the Mets got significantly better since then, and the Phillies didn’t, and for 5 1/2 months last year noone was saying the Phillies were the better team.
There’s a difference between confidence and arrogance. When you hear what the Mets are saying this year, taken as a whole rather than just the soundbites, they sound confident. Last year they were arrogant.
I just can’t wait for the season to start.
I agree about the confidence and arrogance thing. I actually want to see both this year. Believe you’re better than everyone else, Act like you’re better than everyone else, BE better than everyone else.
And if a team beats you on a cheap Citizen’s Bank Park 320 foot popup or a single that bleeds through the hole, break out the hammer in the next game. Take offense.
Exactly.
The Mets have some players who are very passionate about their baseball, and some players who are very proud professionals.
In both cases, I am expecting them to come out to prove a point about last season. Noone wants that to define their career, and I don’t think anyone on this team is going to allow it to happen.
yes and yes
Why are Met fans so convinced the Phils didn’t improve in the off-season? Did they get Johan Santana? Obviously not. But they addressed every need.
Granted the Rowand loss will hurt, but Jenkins is still a solid player on the field and in the clubhouse. A platoon with Werth in right allows Vic to move to center. Werth/Jenkins should put up similar numbers to Row, who had a career year and got paid for it.
The black hole that was 3B?? After wooing Mike Lowell, they settled for Feliz. Despite being widely panned by fellow Phils fans, I think it’s a solid move that will definitely upgrade the defense (see: when Moyer pitches and Nunez had to play) AND offense. This also allows Dobbs (you know, the guy who hit that Grand Slam in shea in Sept) to be a super utility guy and strengthen the bench that consists of Taguchi, Helms (prob be traded), Bruntlett and Coste.
Bullpen/Starting pitching trouble? Make a trade for a once lights out closer that needed a change of scenery and allow for Myers to return to the bullpen. Yes, the most recent Lidge injury sucks but im cautiously optimistic he’ll be ready by mid-april. They also will not be trotting guys like Mesa/Alfonseca this season, thank god. There are a few younger guys they think can step in and give them some innings out of the pen.
So, if you want to say the Mets are still better on paper, you might be right. But to say they did nothing to get improve themselves, you’d be wrong.
Yes, they made moves, and I’m sure they didn’t intend that the team get worse by those moves, but it was more reshuffling than anything else. CBP will turn Pedro Feliz into a vintage Tomy Batista type, but I don’t consider that an especially noteworthy upgrade. Losing Rowand will hurt a lot.
In that park, the offense will always be there. What the Phillies needed (and still need) was pitching. Getting Lidge was a good move, but a big “if.” Think of it as the counterpart to the return of Duaner Sanchez for the Mets (also iffy).
I’ll just add that when we throw euphenisms out there like “Change of scenery,” it usually requires a player to be put in a position to succeed, or to go unnoticed if he doesn’t. I need some convincing that a closer who basically lost all of his mojo after one HR in the playoffs is all of a sudden going to succeed or go unnoticed in one of the most brutal sports towns in the U.S. in one of the smallest, most HR-friendly ballparks.
How did he save 42 gms the year after he lost ‘all of his mojo’? That’s more than Wagner’s saved in any of his 2 seasons each in Phi or NY.
He saved 32 games in ‘06 and he saved those games to the run of a 5.28 ERA. You think that’s going to get the job done in Philly, you’re dreaming. You guys will run Lidge out of town after his first blown save.
So he averaged 37 saves the two seasons after he lost ALL of his mojo? What exactly is mojo and how does it make all your saves irrelevant?
Your overall defense has only improved slightly - upgrade at 3rd offset by a downgrade in the OF.
I’d be very surprised if your RF platoon equalled Rowand’s production. And I know for sure they won’t equal his influence on the team.
Feliz’ OBP is way worse than what you got out of your 3Bs last year. This is going to be the biggest problem in the Phillies lineup.
Presumably Feliz will bat 7th, so his pop won’t be wasted on empty bases and he won’t constantly be clearing the pitcher’s spot, and Ruiz 8th which will make your 7-8-9 look like this:
7: Lifetime .288 OBP
8: Lifetime .336 OBP
9: The pitcher
That’s a black hole.
How do you judge the defense in the OF? Is it based on reputation, numbers or actual eyewitnessing?
If you asked many Phillies fans, last year we’d call Rowand 3rd as the best CFer on the team defensively (behind Victorino and Bourn). And he was worse the year before.
And what knowledge do you have of Rowand’s influence on the team? Is it just something you picked up from the media or do you have some inside info?
Jesus, Jon, do a freaking Nexis search before you say the Mets “were afraid to fire back” last winter or however you put it. I remember most of the Mets saying “prove it” or something to that effect, and I remember Beltran being pissed off.
Lookie what I found in about two seconds:
“Good for him,” Carlos Beltran said of Rollins’ boast. “What’d they win? What’d they win last year?”
It’s easy to prove your point when you alter the facts to fit your argument.
Wait, was this a Jeff Pearlman piece?
No, it was from the Bergen Record, as found on Nexis.
I was really just making fun of Pearlman, per your statement “It’s easy to prove your point when you alter the facts to fit your argument,” . . . though Pearlman usually doesn’t trade in facts.
Anyway, thanks — it’s a perfect example of how the more prolific writers are just spewing whatever comes to mind to generate hits. I guess being accurate doesn’t matter if it’s only sports journalism. Factchecking is so twentieth century.
thank you. gonna hear this over and over so angry fans will click their way over.
I have had enough of this “scared” crap. The Mets may have nonchalonted for a while (bored?), but they lost down the stretch because the pitching was gassed, and what effectively was some bad luck (poorly timed error, interference call, etc.).
They put up some runs (most of the time), and a scared team doesn’t keep coming back and building 4 run leads. A team with a shot BP does give them back though.
I think you mean poorly timed errorS…as in 10 over a two game stretch in September, including three by Reyes…..coincidence???????
So, I guess now that they are speaking up; that means they are not scared. To me that’s a good thing, not a bad thing. They just can’t get kocky. I don’t mind them talking like this. The Phillies haven’t stoping talking like since the end of the ‘06 season and who won the division that season. The only thing I say to the Mets “Don’t Get Too Kocky!”
The mets WERE the team to beat last year, but they fell apart at the end. They’ve definitely improved their team, but its sorta dumb to claim things that you’ve shown in the recent past to be false. Do it on the field first, then talk about it.
Last year they could say they were the team to beat in the division because they Won the NLeast in ‘06. This year they gotta prove it on the field first.
I am going to say this is only one more time.
The Mets in the final seven vs. Philly beat themselves, bullpen, poor fielding, and dimwitted mistakes.
Once in those did Philly simply out play the Mets, in two others the Phillies bested the Mets more or less on their own head to head accord, four of the games the Mets flat out handed to Philly.
The Mets beat themselves FAR more than the Phillies beating the pulp out of the Mets.
This is not even Mets v Cardinals circa 1985 into 1986, in 85 both teams played extremely well head to head.
There is no fear inside the Mets heads of Philly as was the case with Atlanta thru the late 90s and first two seasons of the millenium
Then we should just go out and prove it this year. If most of the team is relatively healthy, plus the addition of Santana (et al.), there should be no excuses. Yes?
If we’re still looking for a 2008 slogan, how about:
NO EXCUSES!
quick….what was the Mets winning percentage in September last year? anyone? anyone?
it was .500. They were 14 and 14.
Mets gave the Division away given the situation, which was that the Phillies did have to win 17 games that Month to take the Division.
Sorry, I have to go on a separate rant here. As usual, Heyman has to take pot shots at “statheads.” If Heyman stepped away from Rollins’ lap for a second maybe he could appreciate that Rollins wasn’t even th most valuable player on his own team. What’s amazing, Heyman goes on and on for about three paragraphs railing about VORP, as though anyone would boil everything down to a single sabermetric model. Even the so-called “VORPies” recognize the inherent limitations of something like VORP. VORP is simply one of many models of measuring performance.
But let’s be frank - Rollins had a great year. He was not the most valuable player in the NL. He wasn’t the most valuable player on his own team.
Heyman is a moron and has no clue what makes someone a good baseball player.
David Wright got absolutely robbed.