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Yesterday, Mets GM Omar Minaya told reporters that Orlando Hernandez is no closer to throwing batting practice, let alone starting a game, despite throwing a ‘good’ 
bullpen session earlier in the week.
According to the New York Post, Hernandez is battling pain in his foot, as well as pain from a recent root canal.
…it used to be a joke, but i seriously can no longer keep track of this guys aches and pains…
…at this point, el duque makes Kaz Matsui look like Cal Ripken…
By the way, at his blog for the Daily News, Adam Rubin writes about a recent cameo made by Hernandez on a Cuban-themed, Spanish-language variety show on a South Florida TV station.
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Wow, I cannot stop laughing at the Adam Rubin Story lol. so funny.
“The Mets used 13 starting pitchers in 2006, then 12 in ‘07 when Pelfrey struggled, so the 24-year-old had a point about opportunities arising.”
can anyone even name more than about seven acceptable starting pitchers the Mets could go to?
Santana, Pedro, Perez, Maine, Pelfrey, Duque, …Bostick?
I cringe at the idea of who the 12th SP would be.
I’m guess, in order of acceptable-ness, Sosa, Vargas, Armas…um…
That’s only 9, but I would think the rotation would be more stable this year than last. to use 12 or 13 starters in a season seems like a really high number, although I don’t know the ML average off the top of my head.
well its been the Mets average the last two years…
I dont know about Vargas… but if they dont sign Lohse then he might be the 5th starter if Duque is on the DL to begin the year.
… and Sosa’s window for starting is a small one, but at the beginning of the year it would make sense for him.
Once he has about 20 relief appeances in he’s not going to get in the rotation.
El Duque: Please retire so the Mets can collect insurance proceeds.
I highly doubt he’s insured. Not only would his age and health history have made that difficult, but they generally don’t insure contracts that small.
The Mets will have to eat his contract or find a way to stick him in the pen.
“He had a very good bullpen [Tuesday], which is encouraging,” Minaya said. “He really had his off-speed stuff going.”
hahahahahahaaa… That’s a good one, Omar!
You can’t have “off-speed” if you don’t have “speed”.
“water really has its wetness going”
well, off speed for Duque now means he was getting his 50 mph Ephus pitch over as a nice change from his 65mph FB.
I am not sure if AARP writes insurance policies for MLB. We might have to go to one of those like Colonial Penn who write policies for anyone between 50-85 with no health questions.
Mets don’t need to collect insurance if he retires he simply doesn’t receive his money.
how come fatty mo was able to collect the rest of his Mets salary (albeit mostly from insurance) even though he retired before his contract was over? I never understood that… Anyone have any idea?
I think it’s built into a lot of contracts that should player x be forced to retire due to injury, he still gets paid. I have no idea if that applies to someone under contract who just doesn’t want to play anymore, but I’ve also never heard of that happening.
I cant believe this guy is hurt already. Already!!??? It’s a week into Sp. Training. Dump him.
Put him on the DL, have every busted part worked on, and hope he can come back fresh at the ASB. He can be this years big mid-season pick up for the stretch run.
Totally agree with that. We don’t need him now. Let Pelfrey go out there every 5th day and THROW. I don’t want Pelfrey pitching, I want him throwing like he did at the end of last year. Guess what Rick, when you have a high 90’s, hard sinking fastball, you can get by with that in the major leagues.
I think El Duque is a gamer and as clutch as they come, but this is ridiculous. He is Mr. Glass.
Well, I am fine with Pelfrey starting the season as the #5. I think he has advanced enough from last year (when he really was not ready) that it should be fine, expecially with a much more established front 4 ahead of him.
But, what I do then worry about, is what the heck is the depth chart behind him? If someone goes down (and I guess Pedro is the only remaining real injury worry, but any pitcher can break at any time!), who is #6 or #7?
Don’t think I want to see Sosa again. Will Armas be ready? Vargas again?
If Duque really get lost for the season (or a big chucnk of it) now, then Heilman really does become an option. Say the team really wants Pelf to get 1/2 -1 full year at AAA. And the other RH guys in the pen (Sanchez, Wise, maybe Register) all look strong. Well, AH would be expendable from the pen if the rotation needed him.
Look, I gotta say that last year, when healthy, he pitched great.
But his health IS the reason why he NEEDS to be in the bullpen.
Lasy year the Mets “waited” to sign more pitching for the stretch run. Don’t do it again. Go out and get Lohse. I year, 3-4 million. He not only gives us insurance for El Duque, but is insurance for Pelfrey (who knows what Pelfrey WILL do).
Don’t wait again Minaya!
well, if you sign Lohse, then you know that Pelfrey will be pitching in AAA unless one of the other guys gets hurt.
So if Duque is out of th eequation, then the choice is try find a guy for the rotation (like a Lohse) or decide to go with Pelfrey, and try to find some AAA depth to have in reserve.
Sign Lohse. I was also listen to Ken Rosenthal on XMRadio yesterday, (XM a must have for harccore baseball fans) He said he expects the mets to Sign Lohse.
Go get Lohse. This is getting serious. Go ahead and pay the man, Pelf looked good and its a positive sign for when he takes Perez’s spot next year in the rototation. But it we go get Lohse then we have Santana, Lohse, Maine, Pelf and probably Martinez in the rotation in 09 (not trying to look too far ahead) But El Duque is El Done
The deal with Lohse isn’t the salary, or even the length of contract.
It’s the guaranteed roster spot – there’s no way he signs without one.
We really want someone to join the line behind Duque & Pelfrey, he’s demanding to jump to the front.
Put Elduque on the 45 day DL and that frees up a roster spot. When Elduque’s time is up we will deal with the roster spot then. Maybe someone else gets injured or we trade someone.
45 day dl???
60 will work too, wrong sport I guess. I thought there was 15, 45, 60 and 90. I guess 45 does not exist?
The Mets need pitching but Lohse isn’t old enough or Latino enough for Omar’s tastes. Maybe Freddy Garcia fills the bill?
Can someone please tell me why El Duque is hurt? What is wrong with him? His toe? I thought he had the bunion removed after the season. Now that we know he didnt, A) why didnt he and B) now that he hasnt, and apparantly hasnt felt better in 5 months of no pitching, why should we believe his toe will get any better in spring training? This is ridiculous. I have always been a big El Duque supporter but maybe its time to cut ties, or at least plan on him never being ready and anything he gives you let it be a bonus. WHY IS NO ONE IN THE MEDIA (Burkhardt for example) FINDING OUT WHATS WRONG WITH THIS GUY???? Dont tell me toe….tell me WHY he is having problems with his toe STILL and WHEN he will be ready. This is a joke.
According to a quote I saw a couple of days ago, Duque decided against the bunion removal because he was told it’d take two years to recover from, by which time he’ll be about as able to take the mound as Tom Seaver.
…I guess John Maine and Pelfrey are Latino then?
…and his trades for Schneider and Church this offseason?
He even has a root canal! It doesn’t end
El Duque needs to take it slow and not push anything. We don’t need a fifth starter until the middle of April, and even then lets give pelfrey that spot in the rotation. Have El Duque come into the rotation sometime in June (Like Clemens did) so he is not burnt out by the time September rolls around. This way we get a good look at Pelfrey and decide if he can get the job done, and if not a well rested El Duque can come back to the #5 spot
Just get rid of the guy. Even if you rest him, he’ll just hurt himself in his first game back. It’s ridiculous already.
Why get rid of him? He’s already paid for and MAY be able to get some mileage either starting or in the pen. The trouble is depending on him. Just look at him the same way we did Pedro last year. Anything we get out of him this season is better than nothing.
All very good posts above. This is very disturbing and an unneeded distraction. Part of me is pissed that he is hurt already and another part of me knows he can help when healthy..HaHaHaha
Someone above said DL Duque for midseason addittion. That is a totally logical train of thought!!!!!
I love Pelfry’s progress and think he is the real deal but the correct approach here is to DL duque, sign Loshe and let Pelfry begin in AAA and build additional confidence.
This would be a smart business decision.
beat me to it.
Beyond confidence, you should plan every season knowing who your top 7 starters are, if not 8. The extras can be in the pen, in AAA, etc, but you’ve got to know who they are because you WILL need them.
Sign Lohse as a #5, then it’s…
6. Duque
7. Pelfrey
8. Armas
Pretty good coverage. Withough Lohse though, Armas may very well be your 6 since Duque is as reliable as a public toilet.
Like someone above said, Lohse will want to be the #5 all year. If Duque is ready to pitch, you will not be able to send Lohse to AAA. That’s the good thing about Pelfrey. He can be sent up to the majors and down to AAA Heath Bell style. It’s a very flexible situation. You lose that with Lohse.
If you get to the 45 day spot and Loshe is pitching well then Elduque has 3 options. He takes a bullpen spot, stays on the dl or gets traded. So what? It’s not like he’s the future.
Keep in mind Sosa could be stretched out a bit and could spot start
He could, but Willie has tended not to do that. See Darren Oliver’s season.
I like what Elduque can give us in the 5 spot, however I now think the following is the best option.
Sign Loshe for 2 years 12 million he essentially takes Elduque’s money next year.
Move Elduque to the 45 day DL. It would be justified and not dirty. Elduque should be ready before the Allstar break and if someone gets injured he’s good insurance.
Pelfrey starts the year in AAA. If he does well he can push Loshe for a spot or can come up when Pedro takes his mid season break.
Then next season hopefully Pelfrey can prove to be a #4 and Loshe a #5 and that gives us leverage with Perez and Pedro.
I can’t really see Lohse affecting negotiations with Pedro or Perez.
With Boras as his agent, the other 29 teams are going to determine Perez’ price.
Pedro’ll go/stay where he wants to be unless he gets low-balled. If anything ‘we really need you’ is probably a better pitch to him than ‘we got Lohse so take it or leave it’ which I think he’d take offense to – and I’d agree with him.
But it means that we can offer our best offer to both Pedro and Perez. If one of them walks so be it. If not then next year the agents will know how bad the Mets need starters in general. If they both take our offers then we trade Loshe or Pelfrey.
interesting idea. I feel more ok about lohse than I did. he played the last two years in launchpads, he has around 2-1 k/bb…he’s not brutally awful, he’s ok. I think I might be able to live with him as a 5th guy. maybe.
Shut him down and sign Lohse. Let the Jacket work with him and turn him into a John Maine.
At this point I would settle for the old Steve Trax in the 5 spot. Before you start jumping, not the 2006 version.
Im glad he has an injury. This time he’ll be healthy for septembe instead of April
Keep him in Florida and have him work out until needed in September
Please just sign Loshe Already. Pelfrey has done nothing to warrant a spot in the rotation so far, and he hasn’t earned the right to be upset about being stepped over. He 2 months last season to prove something, and outside 1 outing he didn’t prove anything. I am not saying he won’t still be a good pitcher, but we shouldn’t worry about his ego. As for El Duque, I’m not going to let his injuries ruin another playoff run for us, we in know way should be relying on someone of his age and health. We should learn from our mistakes. Shut down El Duque, bring him back after all star break. Sign Loshe, pelfrey will be in the wings waiting for another starter to get injured, which hopefully will not happen. Pelfrey projects better for next years rotation that he would this years.
I completely agree.
If you want to bring Duque back after the all star break, then what do you do with Lohse? You cant just send him to AAA like you can with Pelfrey.
Nice problem to have, excess starters at the AS Break. Have we ever been in that position? It’s been a long time anyway.
Maybe at that point if Loshe is pitching well as is Pelfrey in the minors and everyone is healthy then you can trade Elduque for an extra bat or bullpen help. That is if he can’t go to the pen.
Well, if Duque is healthy, I don’t see him being traded. Willie and Omar both love him, so I can envision them getting him back into the rotation somehow. You know how Willie is with his loyalty.
My thoughts exactly, I don’t think you stay away from this move because of this problem. This would be a problem every team dreams about having, too much pitching after all-star break.
If Lohse is pitching good, then you either drop your weakest bullpen arm and put El Duque in the pen (which would be the perfect scenerio). Or you can try and move Lohse or Duque to get whatever the Mets need most at the time.
If Lohse is pitching bad, Duque steps in and you try and move Lohse and get whatever you can for him, or eat his salary and move him to the minors.
Then Loshe has a couple of options. Becomes the long man or gets traded. Again, it’s nice to have options.
Yeah, thats true. The only thing is, Lohse is going to be rather expensive, so it would be hard to just trade him or make him the long man. Nobody would want him, so the Mets would have to eat his salary, and if it’s a 2 year 15 million deal (he’s asking for more than that), I have a hard time seeing the Mets simply eating that.
I would bet we could get him cheaper than that at this point. However, there are always teams looking for starters at the break. If we pay half his salary or take back a bad contract I am sure he could get moved.
You seriously want loshe, or are you being sarcastic
Would you rather have Loshe on the cheap who we know will give us average innings?
Elduque who may not give us anything?
Pelfrey who has not proven anything?
Besides as someone mentioned earlier, it’s about depth.
right now if Elduque can’t go then Pelfrey has to be next. What if he is not any better than last year or Pedro gets hurt? Then its Armas time and even worse if they both happen at the same time it’s Armas, Vargas time.
I would feel much more comfortable giving Loshe a try and then if it does not work out have Elduque, Pelfrey, Armas, Vargas as the depth behind him.
Duque doesn’t count as depth. He would not be willing to pitch in AAA as depth to be called up when Lohse struggles. When Duque is ready to pitch, he will be in the rotation. When he’s hurt, someone else will need to fill in. And Lohse won’t sign unless it’s a guaranteed spot.
Loshe wants a 10 million-per year contract
At this point do you actually think he will get that? Come on. He’s going to get 12 for 2 years at the best.
If he goes on the 45 day DL he is depth because he should be healthy if somone goes down. You are right as soon as he is ready he would have to have a spot somewhere. If the Mets say its the pen because Loshe is pitching well then it’s Elduque’s decision.
I want a Porsche convertible with Cheryl Tiegs in the passenger seat (yes, I am old), but doesn’t mean I am going to get it.
With Lohse, if they need him, i don’t really care about the money. it is the years.
And boras has a histroy of over pricing his clents, and if he gets burned, they sign a 1 year deal and try again the next year.
Well, 1 year (maybe plus an option?) would be perfect for the Mets, since who knows if they will need him in 2009.
Mid year, Duque or Lohse would go to the pen, or Lohse could be traded.
Not a bad idea. I think the problem is is that they think Duque will be ready to start the season. The #5 starter won’t be needed until late April anyway, so they probably think Duque will be good to go by then. That makes signing Lohse harder when you’re expecting Duque to be ready.
You can’t expect Elduque to be ready. We have done that enough already. Look, if healthy he is the best #5 in the league but who knows if he will be healthy. All this does to me is slide Armas Jr. one spot back. :)
What has Kyle Lohse ever proven?
That he can win less then 15 games?
That he can have over a 4.5 ERA?
That he can strike out 2 batters for every walk he issues?
That he is a sub .500 pitcher?
The man is projected for 9 wins and 11 losses this year on some sites. Why am I going to pay $10 million per year for this piece of garbage?
What is this 10 million. Livan wanted more than Loshe to start with. What did he get?
Besides give me a true prediction for Pelfrey? Based on last year’s stats he MAY not be able to even give us those numbers. Then if Pedro goes down its Armas JR and we know he can’t give us those either. Those numbers are better than league average for a #5.
From the Philly Enquirer
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Lohse and agent Scott Boras had been looking for a deal in the neighborhood of five years and $55 million. With no takers at that price, it appears they are waiting for a team to suffer a breakdown in the rotation and become desperate for a starter. Sources say the Phillies made a three-year, $21 million pitch to Lohse early in the off-season, but that wasn’t enough. . . .
———————————————————————–
Livan was not asking anywhere near that. Add in the fact that Livan ended up with a possibility of making $7 million for the year. I wouldn’t consider signing Lohse for $7 million or even $5 million. With the 1-4 the way it is I would be happy having Pelfrey as the 5th starter and developing.
The same site that I used for Lohse’s 9-11 W/L projects Pelfrey as 8-10 with a 4.33 ERA
Lohse is projected to have 4.81 ERA.
Now is Lohse worth the extra $5 mill?
And if Pelfrey continues to be a 6.00 ERA starter then what?
Besides that 7/21 is not on the table any more.
surely you have to adjust that depending on where he plays, though. A pitcher’s park with a good offense and defense behind him? not saying he’ll be tom seaver, but…
At this point, it is really a tough call as to whether Lohse will give you more out of the 5 hole than Pelfrey will. If Pelf can do the same job, why clog up the roster with Lohse?
Now, if the combo of Jacket + Shea (throw in the pedro effect) finally get Lohse to have the year that many people think he is capable of, then it could be a great deal. If he sucks, and Pelf ends up replacing him, at best you have lost money on the deal.
The other wildcard is, will the front 4 make it through a full season? Pedro of course is the one you worry about, but hopefully he just needs a “blow” now and then. That is, skip a turn when the schedule allows, maybe have someone do a spot start for him, etc. No long DL time requiring a FT replacement.
So, if they get real lucky, Lohse settles in as a fine #5, and the rotation holds together for the most part, and Pelfrey gets everything working and dominates AAA. Not a bad problem to have.
Of course, if Duque gets healthy, then what do you do? Lohse to the pen?
2009? Who knows, but if say Lohse and Pelf are ready to go, it would cushion the blow if they lose any of the FA starters.
Heck, if they sign Lohse cheap enough, and he pitches OK, they could always trade him too!
Anyeay, as long as they put together a kick A rotation, and have some spare starters that don’t scare the crap out of you, I don’t care how it gets done!
I agree with your fears, however, I like insurance. What if Pelfrey stinks? What if Elduque and Pedro get injured. What if Perez goes down for a few starts again.
Every team has these issues. However, this is where being a largemarket team helps. It we sign Loshe and he just flops and we can’t trade him, we eat the money. The Nats or Pirates can’t afford to have a #6 starter making 6 million like Elduque nor can they just cut a 6 million dollar mistake.
Go get the insurance and worry about having too much pitching later.
Agreed.
Loshe stinks, and he wants to be paid 10 mill a year, I’m suprised Mets fans want him
I want to be paid 100,000 to teach. However, the market says I will get 45,000. I guess I will take 45,000.
Sub .500 pitchers are paid like sub .500 pitchers.
BTW I am concerned that you are posting on MetsBlog if you are supposed to be teaching and want $100,000 to do it.
It’s called planning period man. Come on.
The thing is its too late for him to get 10 million a year, that boat has sailed. He will take whatever people are willing to give him at this point. If its just money and 1 year contract, you shouldn’t mind the mets doing this move.
Every year we see teams including the Mets, at one point in the season scraping the bottom of the barrel in the minors for someone with a live arm to start games. Injuries happen, no team goes an entire season without multiple injuries to their rotation. Lohse just costs money right now. Whether hes good or not, I will take the odds against what might be coming out of our minor leagues at this point.
El duque hasn’t earned the right to be upset by a move like this. He is the reason why we need to make a move like this, he has hurt us possibly more than any other player the past few years. And again, Pelfrey deserves no say on the matter either.
Exactly, competition breeds results. Let the 3 of them fight it out for one spot.
Root canal????? Can that seriously be listed? I’ve had a root canal. It sucks. It ddi not limit me from going to work or doing anything physical. Ankle. fine. Root canal. GET REAL.
Shooting pains in one’s jaw and face…can’t see how that would make it difficult to pitch at the MLB level. Sorry, your opinion is idiotic.
So many of you are down on Duque b/c he’s quirky and temperamental. He’s going to get through this and give us some very good quality starts. Give the guy a break; it’s frickin’ February!
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are down on him because, as mentioned above, he has hurt us as much as anyone in the last two years with his health issue.
I like Duque, I really do but I am pissed because is screwing with our momentum
I would love nothing more than to sign Lohse and shut Duque down till late August early September. Let him get healthy so he can either goto the bullpen or make spot starts for us, Perhaps even get the ball to in a playoff game if Lohse was inconsistent all year.
Good read on the topic and reflected in most posts above.
There is one variable in all this. We do have someone in our Penn that can and wants to do the job. His name is Arron.
yeah, but he hasn’t pitched more than 87 innings in two years.
And, of course, you might all turn out to be right. But panic-mongering in February about “momentum” makes less than little sense.
ED is proven, injuries notwithstanding. Let’s see how he progresses through March before you all have him buried.
Great, someone I dissagree with. Who is panicing? I’m glad that you are so sure that he will provide valuable innings and I hope you are correct.
However, If you surveyed everyone involved in this discussion I think there would not be as much confidence in Duque as you have.
If I had a choice between false confidence and a backup plan, I’ll take the backup plan.
The Mets have come a long way, finally the day has come where we are worrying about our No. 5 starter, instead of who our ace is. I think Pelfry should become the 5th starter. Here are my reasons: 1) He will not cost anything, and when Duque is healthy, he can move back down to AAA.
2) Guaranteeing any pitcher, like Lohse, a contract like the one he is seeking to get is just foolish. We are not in a position where we are desperate. Imagine if we didn’t get Johan, that would be totally different.
3) Thinking about next year, by saving the 10 million per year, we can use that money for something that we would REALLY need next year (1st baseman, another legitimate pitcher).
We are in good shape. Lohse should only be signed if we can get him at a very low price.
If Duque doesn’t feel better in the next week or so, the Mets will have to make some sort of decision. Whether that will include letting Pelfry know he will get the spot, or going out and signing Lohse. Either way, I am not too worried, the rotation looks great.
That’s why I thought he’d be perfect in the bullpen, he will not last all season as the starter. You either have him start the season now and be out by August or wait it out and see what you can get out of him.
I can’t believe Loh-she is still available. If he accepts cheap from us, I’d give him a shot.
just put him on the 60 day DL and activate him in august
he always takes a 4 week break in the middle of the summer anyway……..only to come back and have to be shut down again for a few starts
put him on the extended clemenss program
let him get 10 starts through august and sept and keep him around for the playoffs
Fully agree, what would you do with the 5 spot?
as long as pelfrey shows he can handle it……..give it to him
kyle loshe is still available