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…you’re right, David Lennon from Newsday, it’s time i accept Angel Pagan for what he is…he’s earned it, so far…i’m not saying he should be guaranteed an opening day roster spot, just because he is hitting .415 in 13 games this spring, and with three weeks left until the start of the season, but i should at least accept him as the front runner to fill in for Moises Alou…
…plus, let’s not forget, pagan is a former Mets prospect, who is now back in the fold, so we should want him to succeed…
…so, for now, until pagan proves otherwise, i do not want the Mets to trade more young talent, or extra relievers, and over-pay to acquire a guy like Juan Rivera, Randy Winn or Xavier Nady…
I second that…
Third. I believe the old addage is ‘Dont fix wont ain’t broke.’
.415 aint broke. I dont care whos pitching for the other guys. Give this guy a chance to fail, hes earned at least that much. Besides what kind of message does it send when someone on the team goes down, his replacement tears it up when given the opportunity, and you go out and bring someone else in. Moral does mean alot in baseball over the long haul. If he starts to stink it up I’m sure he’d understand, but not when hes performing so well. Besides, its only until Alou comes back anyway(and then promptly gets hurt again, but well deal with that when it needs to be dealt with.)
-’what ain’t broke’….typo….
Since living in Chicago for the last 2 summers, and having season tix at wrigley (my girl is a Cubs fan), I’ve watched Pagan over the last 2 seasons intently… He’s definitely not the same player he was in chicago. I never thought he was a standout player, and fit his role as an occasional fill-in. In watching him play this spring, he’s evolved into a veteran presence. first and foremost, his approach to the plate is much better, he’s patient. and in the mix-match of lineups we put out there, you can see him nuturing the younger and invitee players. He truly looks comfortable, which is reciprocating to his play on the field. he’s always had a chip on his shoulder since the mets let him go. HOWEVER, I still feel like he’s coming back to earth any day. i think Fernando deserves most of the PT. He needs big league experience, big league ABs. -shytownmet
It seems a little more edgy when it’s posted by Cerrone, rather than Matthew Cerrone.
the guy is going to be an asset. at the very least he replaces what car-go would give them in ‘08. maybe not long term, but for sure in ‘08….
Exactly. Give Pagan a try and if it doesn’t work out, then look for a solution.
And now that you’ve said that Matt, Pagan will proceed to come back to earth. You should have just kept on questioning his talent….
Pagan is the truth
So if Pagan becomes the new fan favorite at Shea, can we then say we are into “Pagan-ism”?
:::groan:::
he’s the definition of serviceable…
I’m not thrilled nor upset by the thought of Angel Pagan as a OF fill-in
I’ll trade “The Show” for Rivera right now… Then again, I’d trade him for a flaming pile of dog crap…and step in it
Dude, don’t ever become a GM. You’re a terrible negotiator.
Make sure the dog crap can get lefties out.
I agree, if the need is for a 4-6 week fill in for Alou, then Pagan (with Endy) seems to be just as good as any of the other options mentioned.
Plus, he is here, free, and when Alou comes back, it is possible to send him down.
It isn’t like he is a 20 YO that never played above A ball, or a 33 YO career minor leaguer. he is about the right age to be where he is, and he did have a reasonably good year for the Cubs, certainly enough to get comfy as a major leaguer.
Their selling Pagan shirts, jersies, boxers at Modells. He’s a hit I tell ya. Thats what the secret press conference is for, Pagan.
Angel ‘Dust’ Pagan
I heard Pagan’s going to be the new govenor of NY
He’ll have to change his number to 9
Amen.
I’m not really sure where all this reluctance to believe in Pagan came from. The guy is, hands down, the hottest player for the Mets right now. People need to accept that.
Lennon is right. Of course it’s risky if Pagan turns out to be just a big spring training mirage, but he deserves it at this point. 100%. You have to give it to him.
Omar can always keep his eye out for a replacement if Angel tanks. But I think he’ll be an asset and do a good job.
If Rivera could be obtained for Show it is a complete no brainer. First of all in his only real full season he was pretty darn good. He certainly was better than Ryan Church has ever been and we gave up a big prospect for Church. He can fill in at left and first (he is taking grounders there this spring) and when Delgado and Alou are in the lineup he can face tough lefties and sit Church. He also could be a power bat off the bench. He is PERFECT for this team.
seriously though. I would do The Show and Smith for Rivera. Not only are you getting a proven replacement til Alou is back, but he was the complimentary bat we were looking for before Alou got hurt.
I’m ok taking a chance on this kid for the first month or 2. He could become a valuable asset.
spring training 2007:
milledge .352
spring training 2006
julio franco .414
c. lambin .353
spring training 2005
gerald williams .455
miguel cairo .441
Pagans regular season states are more important, and they are good enough to try starting him.
he’ll certainly get a chance; however, spring training stats mean close to nothing.
his regular season and minor league stats show that he is likely a back-up outfielder on a good team.
But I think, on this team, we can survive while giving Pagan a chance to start. I could see him putting up something like .265 / 15 / 70 over a part-time / full season on the bench / filling in… Which I think would be good enough.
I think we have enough back up plans to. I don’t think Pagan will have much lee way…. I think Winn would be the best option if we can get him from the Giants for not very much.
this team wasn’t put together to merely “survive”. They are expected to win, and win now. That’s the real question about Pagan/Endy/Alou — because you know Alou is going to get hurt again, so this isn’t just a 4 week replacement. You have to have a guy that can fill in on a semi-regular basis in LF.
If you pick up a guy like Rivera (again, w/o overpaying), he could not only fill the void in the OF, but possibly be insurance at 1B as well.
you’re right, stats mean nothing in ST…… but form does mean something, and anyone who’s watched Pagan play knows that he’s got great form right now…
that seems kinda confusing, so i’ll give an example….. if a pitcher in spring training pitches 4 hitless innings, despite not hitting the right locations and having the right arm slot, etc. it is worse than a pitcher who allows 4 runs but is pitching with great velocity, location, etc. …
its about the preparation (form) up until opening day, then its about the execution (stats)
Why are they more important?
well said.
the key word is “Overpay”.
Mets are not desperate yet; if you can get a 4th outfielder for reasonable/affordable cost, fine; if not, stick with what we have.
I have no problem staying with Pagan for now.
and Piazza45, we gave up big prospect for Church AND Schneider; Schneider was not simply a throw in (like it or not)
whatever…..I would have felt better about trading milledge for Juan rivera and signing loduca than trading milledge for schneider and Church.
Um….LoDuca and DelCrapo have mastered the ‘over-the-hill’ we may or may not have cheated, holding onto the bottom rung of the ladder handshake.
Im still undecided on the trade, but the one thing I’m certain of is that Lo Duca could NOT have been our catcher this year. Watch closely this year as his steroid, HGH riddled body deteriotes over the course of the season.
you do realize Schneider’s OBP% and RBIs totals are almost exactly the same as LoDuca. Schneider is a much better defensive player. And, if you take age into account, LoDuca is likely going to continue to regress(perhaps dramatically) due to age like he did last season.
HAHA Gerald Willaims. I remember him being our middle of the order hitter at some point in 2005
I think the bad wrap on this guy was concerning his plate discipline. It looks like that has improved, which is probably one of the elements behind his success.
If he keeps this up and finishes ST in the .330 BA/ 400 OBP range, he should earn the roster spot on merit alone. BUt I’m afraid he is not the guy to protect our middle order hitters. I think we really need a Juan Rivera-type.
I know I’m going to get killed for writing this, but home runs are really overrated if the guy is getting on base and smacking doubles around the field like he’s doing right now. They’re not cheap hits for the most part. But can he keep it up? At this stage of the game unless a better option comes cheaply, it would be an injustice not to give Pagan a shot to start the season.
You’ve talked a lot about ‘protection’.
Simple truth is, statistical analysis shows that protection does not exist. Who hits after you has a tiny effect on your production.
In fact, that tiny effect is that your production decreases very very slightly with a big bat behind you. The reason? It makes pitchers slightly more likely to throw strikes, which makes it slightly more likely they’ll get you out.
and unfortunately for you, reality disproves what statistics shows. See Beltran’s noticeably reduced production because of Delgado’s struggles last season. Beltran didn’t get the good fast balls to hit. He was offered off more of speed and breaking balls because the pitcher had the luxury of not having to throw Beltran a fastball because they know they could get Delgado out.
It’s common sense.
No offense, man… but people who say things like “reality disproves what statistics shows (sic)” don’t understand the concept of statistics. Or reality, apparently.
(It ain’t “what you see with your eyes.”)
Question….If you were to surround Beltran in the lineup with Joe McEwing, Rey Ordonez, Kevin Elster, Anderson Hernandez, and Buddy Biancalana…would he have the same OBP, OPS, or anyother Bill James acronym you deem so relevant?
Common Sense.
I’m fine with Pagan in the OF to start. What we really need if we’re looking for it is an OF/1B type who can hit from the right side–that’s why Nady is so alluring. That said, I don’t think we have the chips to get him.
Unless it’s a “dual use” right handed batter like Nady, I don’t see any reason to make a deal at this point. Think Pagan’s earned the right to see if he can Wally Pip Moises Alou. If he can’t, then we’ll add to our lineup with…Moises Alou.
Pagan has earned a roster spot in light of the injury to Alou, but that is not the issue. Nor is the issue whether he could fill in for 6 weeks. The issue is whether this guy is ready to make big league contributions over the better part of a FULL season to a team w/ World Series aspirations. The reason this is the issue is b/c Alou is a good bet to go down again. Would anyone be surprised if Alou, just a few weeks after returning, is sidelined for a substantial period of time w/ a completely unrelated malady? The Mets need a starting, right-handed RF and as of right now, with nothing more than a few stellar ST games and mediocre, if limited, major league stats, no one can say that Pagan fits the mold. As the candidates on the trade market seem unappealing and/or unavailable to the Mets, I do however believe Pagan will get the chance to prove it and we shall see if that is a good thing or not.
He’s got a great baseball name.
Duffy Dyer, Mackey Sasser, Angel Pagan….
with names like those, they gotta play ball!
Think of any others?
The best name of all was my Dad’s!
Choo Choo Coleman!
Maybe if Pagan had a better history in the minors to make me believe he had any potential I would feel better.
Count me in for the Randy Winn bandwagon. The guy is older, but has played in 150 games since 2002, and is the model of consistency. He’ll hit for a higher average, and is also a switch hitter who hits well from both sides and could rotate with Church and Alou.
While he’s slowed down as evidenced by his declining range factor (some of which can also be attributed to a smaller park in SF than Seattle) he still gets outfield assists.
Not sure how many more years he has on his contract, but I’d be ok with him in LF everyday next season.
agreed
421 is the new 420!
i like the idea of randy winn, yea hes 33 but it would be for just 08 and because of that he wouldnt cost as much as nady or rivera. hes a 300 hitter that plays good defense and can steal the occasional base. not to mention he has proven he can contribute all year long and play all 3 OF positions. i think if the price is right regardless of how well pagan is playing omar should do it.
I’m pretty sure Rivera is a free agent after this year too…
Pagan is a guy you spell Beltran with. Not start in LF for a month. This team needs a guy like Juan Rivera who is capable of starting and (as someone mentioned earlier) protecting the guys in the bottom of the order.
Starting for what? A month? And then wasting away on the bench? No thanks. I’ll stand pat (unless all you’d have to give up is Scho, in which case…)
Rivera would start for more than a month. No way Alou plays from May to October without going down for 3-4 weeks. Rivera would also be useful in RF if they’re up against a tough lefty.
I’M Still stuck on Nady. Rivera would be nice too-especially if we can play him at 1B every once and awhile. My problem with Wynn is he’s making pretty good $$$ and I don’t think he’d be happy platooning in RF with Church if and when Alou gets back. Plus I think we’re going to need some pop down in the order and whomever we bring in is going to be batting 6th/7th. Especially if Delgado continues his downslide and becomes a black hole in the middle of the order the way he was for most of last season. Nady’s price might be prohibitive, but he’s just so perfect for this team I’m still holding out hope.
Pagan drove in two runs in today’s game against the Red Sox.
I’m aware of the significance of Spring Training stats, but this guy EARNED his spot on the Opening Day roster. EARNED.
If Alou misses any more than a month, then you go shopping for guys like Winn and Rivera. But for now, let’s just see what we have on our hands.
completely agree. Lets work with what we got now. If pagan/chavez cant handle it, then lets go shop around for winn/thames/nady/rivera..whoever.
Pagan is Endy Chavez-lite. If you wouldn’t tolerate Chavez getting the majority of starts with subsequent Alou DL visits, then you’re not going to be happy with Pagan either. Chavez is a 4th OF; Pagan is barely a 5th OF. I wouldn’t tolerate the loss of power we’d have most of the season if either of these guys had to platoon to take up the slack for Alou. That’s why I agree with those here who like to see a Nady, Rivera, or Winn brought in here. They certainly posses a little more pop in their bats than Pagan. The cheapest of the 3 players available to trade for would probably be Winn, since SF is looking to dump salary. Nady is the best of the bunch but would cost the most talent to obtain.
Yes, we could live with Pagan for awhile, but we would regret not having a power bat to come off the bench or a similar backup plan for replacing Alou long term.
What exactly are you basing this on?
If you look at his stats during the very brief stints he’s had in the majors, and you extrapolate those stats out over the length of a season (dangerous, I know, but hear me out) the guy projects to have at least 15 home runs over the course of a season (5 in 170 at-bats).
He’s not a powerhouse, but the guy has “pop” in his bat, much more so than Endy Chavez.
The way I see it, he still has potential, and has not solidified himself as nothing more than a 5th outfielder. David Newhan is a 5th outfielder. Angel Pagan is a 4th outfielder with potential for more.
I’d love to hear 15 home run calls for Angel….
How ’bout:
It’s going, going, Pagone
or,
It’s a pagoner, put it in the books.
Alright, I’m being silly. Let’s start the season already. Oh wait our CF still can’t take the field. Another good use for Angel.
Show isn’t a big fan favorite for the Angels, so I doubt that is happening.
They’re looking (like everybody else) for high ceiling prospects,which I’m not sure we have many of those left. Otherwise Rivera is still an asset on their team as a 5th OF/1B backup.
N-A-D-Y!!!!!
For Nady, the Pirates would like OP back (except for the salary part of OP).
pagan definitely deserves his shot. it almost angers me to think that they might not give him the job. why trade for him in the first place… im all for giving him as many shots to prove himself as they can give him. i never understood trading for a guy with major league skills and letting him sit in the minors. its like the saying sometimes the best move is not making a move at all. granted there are times where it is necessary to have some extra back ups in the minors, but i think pagan has talent.
Pagan is a journeyman ballplayer. I like Rivera or Nady, prferably rivera. He showed so much potential in 2006. Pagan has shown potential in 10 spring training games. The entire 2006 season or 10 spring training games. I’ll take Rivera.
what good does 2006 do anyone? it didnt help us in 2007, and 2006 sure as hell not gonna help in 08. maybe 08 is pagan’s year. just because rivera had a good 06 doesnt mean hes gonna have a good 08
where do you get pagan being a journeyman from? He is only 26, and 2007 was his first in the bigs. He did OK for his first year, playing part time.
And, unlike Rivera, at least he played the last 2 years.
He has some skills, and is at the right age to become a productive major leaguer. Maybe he won’t be the next matt Holliday, and I doubt he will hit 30+ HRs as a regular, but he has a nice bat, plays D, can run, etc.
For a fill in while Alou is out, what more can you really ask for?