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As noted earlier, WFAN’s Ed Coleman reported on-air that the Mets and Red Sox are discussing a swap of Angel Pagan for Coco Crisp.
…however, i was able to speak with two people connected to the Mets, both of whom dismissed the idea of trading pagan for crisp…
Furthermore, the Boston Globe recently wrote the following to their blog, Extra Bases:
“Ignore that rumor started about Coco Crisp heading to the Mets for Angel Pagan. Theo Epstein, through media relations director John Blake, said that the Red Sox have not been talking to the Mets.
“That the story was a fabrication.”
Also, at his blog for Newsday, David Lennon relays his talk with a Mets official, who more or less says the same thing.
By the way, Pagan hit a two-run home run today and is now batting .419 this spring with 10 RBI.
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1st. ;)
Dude, don’t bring that crap here, even if you are joking.
Riiiiiiight, buddy….
I’m happy that this is all a fabrication. The swap would make no sense in my opinion. It does not make sense in many reasons two of that Pagan is playing well in this spring training season and Crisp is worth a lot of money. Bringing his contract to New York would just be obserd, let alone the fact that hes not a great hitter, but great fielder.
The whole thing did not make sense from the git go. Just add M&MD to the list of unrelable sources. Those two don’t have a clue and never did.
BLASSSTTTTTTIINGGGS THRILLLLLEDGE!!!!!!!!!
Wow, what a surprise, Mike and the Maddog are lying to us. Again.
I don’t think it was intentional however. They’re just idiots.
it was intentional AND they are idiots…
Mad Dog was just criticizing Santana for being a “7 inning pitcher.” Uhhhh, who isn’t a “7 inning pitcher” these days Chris? By my calculations, 7 innings per start over the course of a season could lead the major’s in innings pitched. Wake up Mad Dog.
haha seriously who is an 8 or 9 inning pitcher? did he give an example of guys who can go longer?
roy halladay is the only guy that comes to mind. He had about 7 or 8 complete games last year but i think he likes to pitch all those innings because he doesn’t really trust his bullpen.
Santana has been in the top 10 in innings pitched for each of the last 3 years. Maybe longer but I didn’t check. Halladay threrw 266 innings one year. That is ridiculous.
Here’s how he ranked the last 4 years in innings pitched:
2004: 6th
2005: 4th
2006: 3rd
2007: 9th
And that was with the twins keeping him on a strict pitch count. I don’t know if they ever allowed him to throw more than 120 pitches in a game.
As a point of reference illustrating how the game has changed, Sandy Koufax, in his last year and with an arthritic elbow that forced him out of baseball pitched 323 innings with 27 complete games. His ERA+ was 190 and his WHIP was 0.985. He struck out 317 batters and won the Cy Young..
Thank God…
Thank God??? Do you really think pagan is a better player then CoCo Crisp?? You’re dreaming if you do…
Pagan a better overall player? No. But is Pagan the most useful to this clubhouse? Yes, Pagan is more useful to the Mets than Crisp.
Why would we want to bring in an older OFer who is already complaining in Boston b/c of more playing time? That makes sense. Lets bring Crisp to NY where we have numerous OFers already so Crisp can platoon some more…like he was doing in Boston. Oh wait, he left Boston b/c he wasn’t playing enough.
Crisp needs to go to a team and start, not platoon until the starting LFer gets healthy.
You’re wrong.
Crisp would have been successful in the NL, and he would have had more playing time with the Mets. We have two OF’s who wind up missing time, and Crisp would have been able to play just about everyday somewhere.
You’re missing the point. Crisp doesn’t want to play “Somewhere” he wants to play every day. Day in and day out. That won’t happen in NY.
Therefore, you’re point of view is skewed and you are wrong.
No I’m not.
Not ever.
And how do you know what he wants? With the Mets, Crisp could have played everyday. Probably not in center, but somewhere. Everyday. And that would have been better than anything he will get in Boston. So I think he’d have taken it. And I am not wrong.
your wrong…. when alou is hurt, crisp wouldn’t even be a starter all the time because we have endy chavez also
Nice try. Crisp would play better over extended at bats than Endy would. Crisp would be the full time fill in for Alou while Endy would remain in his bench role/
So, it turns out that I’m not wrong after all.
Pagan’s lifetime numbers after 318 mlb ab’s
obp 306
slg 415
avg 255
OPS 721
Crisp’s numbers after the same number of mlb ab’s
obp 308 even with Pagan
slg 365 Pagan way ahead
avg 263 Crisp ahead by very little
OPS 683
Pagan is two years younger and could have a big upside
Crisp’s lifetime numbers are not anything that Pagan might not match or possibly surpass by a big margin
obp 329
slg 409
avg 280
Pagan is much cheaper ,younger,healthy with better upside
All of this info is crap.
Who cares how the two players compare to one another at various points in their careers? Show me who has hit ML pitching in their career and who hasn’t.
Also show me who is the better defensive player. Which player has ever enjoyed any ML success?
It’s Crisp.
That’s a loaded argument. Crisp developed faster and started getting those AB’s at age 22-23–but has dipped a bit recently.
I’d be more excited if Pagan were a couple years younger (though only 26) since there would be a better chance he was really developing as opposed to just hitting a hot streak.
That being said, I still agree with you–would much rather have Pagan than Crisp right now.
oh no, CW is back. crisp is a black hole. no thanks.
heh
Thank God!
I really want to see Pagan thrive on the Mets. I really think he is the kind of player who will perform better w/ consistent playing time, even though that might be unlikely this season.
Pagan isn’t going to “thrive”. He is a spare part.
Yeah, like you know what you’re talking about. I’ve watched him @ Wrigley, and he has an excellent chance to be a real contributor.
Tell me, what’s your authority to make such a judgement besides his stats that show us only that he’s never had serious MLB playing time?
Oh, OK Harry Caray. So I am not an authority to say that Pagan is a spare part, but you are enough of one to say that he can be a real contributor.
Tell me why he played so much with the Cubs if he had all this untapped potential. I have Extra Innings, and have seen him play quite a bit. So tell me what YOU have seen Pagan do outside of this ST to convince us all that we should hand him the keys to the shop. Because all Pagan has ever proven to me is that he is just not really that good of a big league ballplayer.
Guys like you make me have to go on MetsBlog vacations from time to time.
It’s funny what you’re unaware of, but that’s your own pathetic problem.
Cubs folks were high on him, but their organization has a ridiculous propensity to rotate OFers with potential constantly, and it’s one of the reasons (some people with some knowledge of the game of MLB may argue) that it’s extremely hard for a rookie to ever get into a serious rhythm, let alone play to his full potential. Since you’re such a knowledgeable bb person, I’ve no doubt you know all about how Pagan was handled on the Cubs.
I never once mentioned “handing him any keys,” but I do think he can thrive wherever he gets the potential to be an everyday player. I’m sure environment, espirit d’corps, etc. means little to you. Keep looking at the figures on him from his 300+ ABs. Yeah, man, you know what you’re talking about. So continue to do us the favor and stay on vacation. Not to worry, there’s plenty of room to keep suffering fools like you; I just don’t have to do it gladly.
So I read your wordy nonsense, but you avoided everything I asked. Why would this be?
Oh, wait. It’s because you’ve seen nothing out of Pagan.
So from that I am going to gather that you have no reason to think that Angel Pagan is going to succeed given real ML AB’s, (mostly because if you knew anything you’d realize that he has done nothing with the AB’s he has had), and just assume that you want to hate Coco Crisp for no good reason.
So hey, I’ll just hang out with you here in the “suffering fools” pile. Keep up the great work.
Dolt.
Matt must have made up the rumor. It did generate 193 quick hits to the site (or at least that many posts on the previous thread!)
For what it’s worth, I don’t find that funny at all. I take those sorts of accusations very, very seriously.
There is no way Matt would do that sort of thing for site hits — that’s why he and the site are so successful.
Eddie C. had it on WFAN.
it was on wfan.
Great job stickguy. Now you got Matt upset.
Matt, stickguy apologizes for trying to be funny. I’d say that most readers here know you wouldn’t do something like that. Plus you did cite Ed Coleman from WFAN as the one who said the trade was in the works.
Keep up the good work.
Does anyone else feel like the last hour of work flew by with this rumor?
Let’s try and get one of these started every day around 2-230 PM
Jorge Sosa and Scott Show for Puljos. Big Al can fill in for Alou and Delgado. Discuss….
True…. true….. any kind of rumor that can be posted after 1 o’clock will greatly increase the speed of my day.
spring training 2005:
pagan: .381 12 r 5hr 10 rbi
he may be in the spring training hall of fame one day
Yeah but to be fair, Sox fans were telling me in ‘06 that Crisp was going to be even better than Damon was so I guess hype and false projections only get you so far in baseball.
Bottom line, neither Crisp or Pagan excite me going forward, but Pagan has at least earned a look in RF for the short-term while Theo should have to continue to carry Crisp as an financial albatross another year or so.
financial albatross? he makes btw $4-5 million per year. he would have been one of the most productive mets last year. top 4 in almost every category
Well if Theo was hypothetically willing to dump him for a a career 4/5th outfielder, I’m certain there’s some level of “salary dump” here going on for the Sox.
Regardless, I disagree here. I’m not saying Pagan is the answer, but I would much rather steer clear of Crisp, who we already seem to have a clone of in Endy Chavez who just has less pop hypothetically. I don’t see how .260/.300 is going to help this Met offense. Iw ould much rather see a deal for a Winn/Rivera/Nady once the season is rolling along and we have a better sense of Alou’s status and Delgado’s stinkiness.
Not a clone…
Crisp is a switch hitter. Endy only hits lefty.
nya nya…
good job on that stat!!
Pagan = Mora?!?
and a big HA-HA! to everyone who commented in the nearly 200 reply thread about this fictional trade.
Good one Matt! :)
On balance, I’m glad it doesn’t appear this is going to happen.
Pagan’s OPS exceeds Crisp’s over the last two years, and we already have a speedy +defensive -bat CFer on our bench, one who’s happy to be there and cheaper, in Endy.
It’s not like Pagan can’t field either, he’s got a + glove also, and Endy and Pagan both have better arms than Crisp.
Only reason for the Mets to make the trade is that Crisp’s more proven… but that means lower ceiling. We have yet to see what Pagan will do with regular starts. He should at least improve on his career OBP, and his SLG is already higher than Crisp’s
Pagan has a career 318 at bats and he is (almost) 27 years old.
I think people need to relax about this guy as zen said he has had great ST’s before and he couldn’t crack the cubs rotation last year? They were an absolute mess in the OF.
Pagan is what he is, a guy whose ceiling is Bench Player in the MLB or Starting CF in AAA. He’s definitely not the answer in LF
Anyone who is saying they wouldnt trade Pagan for Crisp is simply saying this because they are caught up in Pagan being hot right now. He has done nothing to show that he is anywhere near the player Crisp is (not that Crisp is so great) — but that only shows what Pagan has been. Spring Training stats are meaningless. Most ABs are against minor leaguers, plus a guy can just get hot for a couple of weeks. Crisp has taken a step back the past 2 years, but he is still a better player than Pagan.
I think you’re missing the point. Most people aren’t arguing that Pagan is better than Crisp. I think, in the long run, Crisp is better. But Crisp wouldn’t be a good fit for the Mets, Pagan is.
Pagan is a fill in guy, a platoon guy. That’s what we need right now.
Crisp is an every day OFer. A “I want to play now” guy. That’s what we don’t need.
Our starting OF is Alou, Beltran, Church. That’s it. Crisp wouldn’t stand for the back seat or platooning w/ Church/Alou.
Therefore, Crisp isn’t a good fit for the Mets and we wouldn’t want him.
Two years would be a long slump… maybe it’s not a slump but his bat’s permanently disappeared?
Pagan has higher OPS than Crisp over the last two years, and whilst Wrigley’s no pitcher’s park, Fenway’s even more of a hitter’s paradise.
I don’t see how Crisp offers more than Pagan, and he costs more and is older.
Coco Crisp (career): .280/.329/.409
Angel Pagan (career): .255/.306/.415
What does this tell us?
1. Pagan has more pop, Crisp’s 2005 season notwithstanding.
2. Pagan walks more.
Admittedly, a small sample size for Pagan. But if you look at the last two years for Crisp, the numbers are even closer. With how good Pagan is looking, there is no reason for this trade to exist.
talk about cherry picking stats. did you look at crisp’s years with the indians?
How can it be cherry picking if you use both of their career stats?
1. crisp has 2500 ab’s. pagan has 318. those stats are meaningless
2. crisp has had two excellent year in the majors along with 2 more above avg years. pagan has never even had a decent year yet
3. cherry picking is taking one set of meaningless stats and ignoring the larger picture which shows that crisp is much, much better and accomplished
Yes, Coco Crisp sure “accomplished” his way into hitting .268/.330/.382 last year. You see that slugging percentage? .382? There are Mets with OBPs higher than that. Well, at least we can look back to 2006’s .264/.317/.385 line. Oh, wait, that’s even worse.
The bottom line is that Coco Crisp these past two years has not just been bad at hitting a baseball, he’s been REALLY bad at it. The fact that he did well in those two years with the Indians is, to me, more indicative of steroid use than actual potential, because it otherwise makes no sense for his production to drop off so drastically in a lineup like that. He is a right-handed hitter, and Fenway is murder on righties power-wise, but he should have been smacking doubles off the monster regularly. Nope. Didn’t happen.
Pagan is hardly the next coming of Carlos Beltran, but he sure is a cheap, solid fourth outfielder. Coco Crisp is alright for a fourth outfielder too, but I’d rather my ticket and concession money went, I don’t know, anywhere else.
only 3 mets players has more runs, rbi, or hits than crisp last year. he’s a switch hitter and given the few lefties crisp had limited right-handed ab’s at home
Looking at his years with CLE would be cherry-picking stats.
There are more reasons to believe that Pagan might improve on his last two years with regular playing time than there are that Crisp would.
“There are more reasons to believe that Pagan might improve on his last two years”
really? based on what? crisp’s year in boston are also better than anything pagan has done. i look forward to all the pagan lovers throwing him under the bus in may.
Well, for one, he’s two years younger. For another, he’s tearing it up in spring training (yes, it’s only spring training, but ST performance is used to judge who makes the team for a reason).
Well, I gave you two reasons right there. Give me ONE reason that you think Crisp is going to bounce back from his two consecutive almost identically craptastic seasons.
How are Crisp’s Boston years better than Pagan’s?
He’s been less productive, despite having a starting role.
Given Pagan’s age, it’s reasonable to expect that pinch hitting has hurt his stats.
So, in addition to Andrew’s two, there’s the third reason to hope for better from Pagan – more playing time.
1 and a half years is not significantly younger than crisp. it just tells me that pagan is not good enough to start in the majors.
if you think pagan was more productive than crisp last year it’s silly to have a discussion with you b/c you’ve been drinking the spring training kool-aid
OK let me rephrase:
Pagan had a better OPS than Crisp over the last two years. That’s not kool-aid, it’s a verifiable number.
Plus… we’re not looking for an every day starter, we’re looking for a bench player who won’t look foolish covering for Alou. And on the last two years’ evidence, Crisp isn’t good enough to be a starter either, but he’s being paid like one, and will moan if he’s benched. At least Pagan’s salary is appropriate for the role, and he’s happy to be in NY for whatever role.
Besides, if Crisp is all so great why was he benched in the WS for a rookie? Ellsbury hadn’t shown the second coming of Willie Mays. He showed he was solid but is that a reason to sit a somewhat veteran player who’s strength is his defense? Crisp had done so little for them down the stretch they decided to go with their top CF prospect in the highest pressure packed games a player can play in. If he was everything you guys say, he wouldnt have been on the bench at that time.
I agree with you 100%. Pagan has more possible upside,is younger and cheaper and fits in better as he is willing to accept any role given to him at the MLB level.
Pagan’s lifetime numbers after 318 mlb ab’s
obp 306
slg 415
avg 255
OPS 721
Crisp’s numbers after the same number of mlb ab’s
obp 308 even with Pagan
slg 365 Pagan way ahead
avg 263 Crisp ahead by very little
OPS 683
Pagan is two years younger and could have a big upside
Crisp’s lifetime numbers are not anything that Pagan might not match or possibly surpass by a big margin
obp 329
slg 409
avg 280
Pagan is much cheaper ,younger,healthy with better upside
This was all silly to begin with. I know you were all joking about Matt, but what was up with Ed Coleman? What was his source? If this was a fabricated story, it’s messed up that it got out to the mainstream, although it’s not that unusual. I would say though that someone should have a chat with Ed Coleman and make sure that he doesn’t use that source ever again and makes sure that no one at WFAN uses that source ever again, if it was truly fabricated. If it wasn’t fabricated, then Epstein or whoever should be called out on saying that. WFAN should have an editorial staff like a proper newspaper and hold themselves accountable for such foolishness.
HAHAHAHAHA …. there’s a reason why newspapers are (sadly) folding up and blogs and more “cool” media are more popular, and I’m sure the lack of editorial filter is a part of it.
Hey Cantstandya! How’s it going, George?! Yeah, it’s fun to have rumors, but this one was beyond ridiculous, unless there was some truth to it. And apparently there wasn’t. If I was even a quasi-journalist (and what is Coleman supposed to be – he’s on radio, isn’t that a “sports journalist”, not a blogger), if I was given a piece of info that made as little sense as this did, I would have probably checked and rechecked a bit more.
According to WFAN’s Ed Coleman, the Mets and Red Sox are discussing a swap of Angel Pagan for Coco Crisp.
Unless Matt miswrote this, it says that they ARE DISCUSSING IT. Not that it’s been reported. COLEMAN IS REPORTING IT! He’s a sports journalist, supposedly for the radio station that b’casts Mets games. I understand the pressure for “traditional media” to jump on stuff at the pace of blogs, but they AREN’T blogs. There is supposed to be some credibility to what they say. I’m not so sure that we should lower the standards for these pros by just chalking it up to being the norm. If that’s the case, we won’t have anywhere to turn for real news. No putdown to blogs by that statement either, as Matt wrote that it wasn’t a done deal to his credit, which is the normal way that he does things.
Boston is not trading Coco Crisp, but they did acquire the Lucky Charms elf for two of the Rice Krispies triplets to be named later.
join me over at the atlanta journal constipation or whatever they call it. I’m posting under the handle U_no_who and having a grand old time making hick jokes on the article about Toothless Tom. It’s not the most mature thing to do, I give you that.
i think you can click my screen name to go there.
There you are, IMFM. I was almost gonna link you to that article in your comment section of Spring Butterflies, but that post is so old, I wasn’t sure if you’d see it. Besides, I figured that it would be tough for you to miss an article about Agent Tom Glavine. I’ll check out what you wrote. I was tempted to write something on there, too actually, but I figured I’d leave it alone. They love their laundry and I love mine. The difference is they put their laundry on backwards of course:) Let’s see some new posts on there – we need them! By we, I mean me!
If he clearly stated it was an unsubstantiated rumor, I’ll give him a pass. Otherwise it’s just bad journalism. He wants to provide interesting news, and instead of getting real info, he provides BS (a la Olney’s Bonds story).
this is insane. i knew we would get crisp for pagan. next we will get pagan back again for anderson hernandez.
Who listens to Mike and the Mad Dog these days? I am so tired of them, and for pete’s sake these knuckle heads get 5.5 hours. There are two things I love about the summer, Mets Baseball and Mike and Dog taking vacations, those two guys single handedly turned me into a “loyal” 1050 espn listener. They can’t even get out of there own way to realize that they do a call in sports talk show, to them the callers are just people they can yell at.
They single handedly made me go out and get XM.
HELLO people…. he said there is no trade, no rumor, no nothing!!
You dont even need to comare the numbers to know this is a bad trade. Pagan has options, and I would think Crisp is out of options.
This is a temporary job until Alou comes back. When alou comes back, pagan can be assigned to AAA. Crisp would have to be traded, DFA’d, etc bc there is no room for him and Chavez on the 25 man roster. And that a lot of money to pay a guy who cant be on the roster.
Actually Crisp still has two option years – that’s the biggest thing he’s got going for him unless you somehow ignore the last two years.
Crisp has too much service time to be sent to AAA without his approval.
i think mrmet it is was talking about options…as in to minors..
not option years…
Anyway, I’m glad this is dead too…
its funny how so many people on this site don’t seem to be able to read people’s reasonings…
i know some people on here are trying to say that pagan is “better” but most are just saying for what we need pagan for…why get crisp
That’s what option years are. When you exercise someone’s minor league option, it means you can bring them up and down for the rest of that year. Hence, option year.
However, if service time requires the player’s consent for assignment… it doesn’t matter. All reports suggest Crisp would never consent.
I am glad that this rumor turned out to be BS. It makes little sense in a business sense as the last poster noted. But even if you just look at the players and nothing else, I still like the youth and hustle that Pagan brings, the Mets could use some more of it.
I especially like the fact that Pagan has proven at the ML level that he is just not that good of a player. That’s what makes this whole thread so funny.
wow dude…give it up
I mean…again…i don’t think everyone here is saying that Pagan is gonna be MVP…but he is going to be a fill in OF at BEST….when Alou comes back, he may well go back to the minors…Crisp wouldn’t stand for that and I don’t believe he could..
Crisp is making a huge amount more..ever think the Mets may be trying to be intelligent about money right now? They may have a high payroll, but it doesn’t mean to be idiotic with their money for someone who would have to fight for playing time if were healthy.
just give it up, your argument is different than most people’s here…if we DID NOT have Alou, this may very well be a great move..but given the fact that we dont at least at this point need the LF, there is not even a reason to consider it…
Well, first off, Crisp is only making a HUGE amount of money if you are managing the books in Pittsburgh. The Mets could burp his salary for this year.
And I’ve been around these parts long enough to know that, yes, there are indeed a good number of people on this site that think that Pagan could compete for the MVP.
May well go to the minors? You bet your rear he’s going to the minors. Not necessarily when Alou gets back, but quite possibly when the Mets need a fifth starter for the first time.
And please, stop saying “Give it up” like you matter. Honestly, I have been saying what’s been on my mind on this site for quite some time and have been told to “give it up” by much better than you.
Who are you to backhandedly dismiss what I have to say? Kiss off. If I want to take the time to type out what’s on my mind, I will. If you don’t like it, fine. Like I said, I’ve heard worst from better than you. So unless you want to trade insulting posts for the next few hours, move on.
But don’t get condescending with me.
Pagan is a nice player, but he is not this good. Not by a long shot.
Look, noone expects Pagan to hit .419 in the majors. I hope noone expects him to hit .300 in the majors.
But there’s a very strong possibility he’ll out-produce Crisp this year, who’s had very little power the last two years despite playing half his games at the most hitter-friendly park in the majors.
Power? You’re not going to get hit from Pagan, that’s for sure. The guy has hit 9 homers in 318 ABs in two years playing for the CUBS. There’s not a more hitter friendly park in all of baseball than Wrigley. His OBP is a horrible .306. He has more than twice as many strikeouts as walks (60 vs. 25).
This is NOT a good baseball player. Coco Crisp is not a good baseball player either, but at least he’s shown himself to be a plus defender.
I’d rather have neither to tell the truth.
unless the majority of his games played were at night… wrigley isnt really much of a power hitters park then.
Turns out, there is a more hitter-friendly park than Wrigley. That’d be… Fenway.
Your argument?
are you asking me for my argument? i’m confused.
OK, sure. But isn’t yours a moot point considering there is at least an equal chance that Crisp will far outproduce Pagan at the ML level this season?
This deal is terrible and I am glad it’s just a rumor, Coco Crisp is an average player in an above average team with an above average salary. On top of that he hasn’t played since March 2nd with left groin injury and has been quoted as saying that he doesn’t know when he will resume baseball related activities.
Don’t Do it Omar—-
Isn’t Coco hurt?
A litttle off topic but has anybody heard an update on Alou?
It was mentioned on a Mets broadcast a couple days ago (by Hernandez maybe, can’t remember), that Alou says his injury is not serious and he thinks he’ll be back quickly–sooner than what was reported.
I’ve heard 4-6 weeks and 6-8 weeks. Maybe the Mets are just being conservative given Alou’s age and history.
I took it was a grain of salt, but it’s at least a reason to be optimistic.
Magglio Ordonez missed half of ‘05 recovering from hernia surgery. His was apparently a little more serious than Alou’s.
gotta love fatso and the dog saying how coco would play center and beltran to lf because beltran is a “poor centerfielder.”
ok… so how about that melky “im a fourth outfielder on any other club” cabrera and johnny “wet noodle arm” damon working out for you fatso?
What idiots.
Beltran’s RZR and OOZ ratings both beat Crisp’s for the last two years.
I love that line…I couldn’t have said it better myself. So I repeat, why are those two blow hards still on the radio.
Beltran is one of the best CFs in baseball.
oh i totally agree with you. he makes amazing catches on web gems every night. but his arm is weaker than johnny damon’s and beltran is not “overrated” as a cf.
you know, lots of people get on him because he plays so deep and a lot of SINGLES drop in on him. but these talking heads dont realize that the balls beltran DOES get to save doubles and triples.
if beltran played shallow in enron (dba sunny d stadium) we woulda lost that game cause beltran would never have made it to that idiotic hill in center.
lets give beltran more credit than he gets. he plays a deep center to prevent extra bases and is willing to give up the single here and there. hes also got a cannon for an arm. how many times have you seen a single get dunked into center, beltran grab it and shoot it home to gun down the runner trying to score?
you wont see that with coco in center. you wont see that with a lot of people in center. thats all im saying.
sorry, i went off on a whole diatribe and just realized now i misread your comment. for some reason i thought it said coco was one of the best cf in baseball. lol.
That hill is a death trap. I can’t for the life of me figure out why they are allowed to have that. Maybe when Hunter Pence breaks his neck they’ll get rid of it.
Poll Questions:
What is worst to listen to?
(A) Mike and the Mad Dog
or
(B) John Sterling and Suzyn Waldman
C.) Michael Kay
c) steven s smith show.
Stephen A. Smith is the worst to listen to. And what he writes is even worse than what he says, if that can be imagined. One of my proudest moments was at Opening Day last year, when he had his EPSN tent set up on the bridge. A lull in crowd noise allowed me to tell him that he “Sucks beyond all reason and should be nowhere near any sporting event.”
A couple of points:
1. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. Pagan for Crisp may not be the move, but anyone who believes that Omar is not looking at potential scenarios for the OF and First because Pagan is smoking the ball in ST is delusional.
2. Regarding Crisp vs. Pagan, you can blow out all the numbers you want, Pagan has never proven anything against major league pitching. Crisp is an average hitter and may not be the answer with the bat, but he’s certainly a more proven commodity than Pagan.
3. Regarding the glove, Crisp plays a solid centerfield. When Beltran goes down, who do you want in center? Chavez, Pagan or Crisp?
I would want Chavez in center. He would be just fine out there.
Anything that takes Beltran’s bat out of the lineup is a bad idea. Chavez will be just fine in left. And if Pagan keeps his spring training act up, he’ll do fine backing the both up for two months.
I agree–It’s easy for us to overrate Pagan because we’re following him closely, he’s the only hitter have a big spring, and has athleticism and potential. I’ve really liked his game, but I don’t trust my objectivity.
No one would be surprised if his regular season was mediocre. It might be a great time to sell high.
1. Fine… Just make sure the trade actually improves the team; I don’t see that Crisp for Pagan improves the team, but it does eat up a couple of million
2. OK… but Crisp is proven to be mediocre. Pagan still might be good, and has shown enough to trust that he’s at least ML bench level.
3. Chavez.
Trading Pagan right now would essentially be trading high (as high as this guy is ever going to be valued).
Why would this be trading high? Because he’s hitting the ball in ST? Because he’s playing well? If everybody here is dismissing what he’s doing because it’s ST, then wouldn’t GM’s also dismiss it? If it’s meaningless would a GM say “Wow. This guy is tearing it up. I’ve got to trade for this guy.”? Or would be willing to give up more for him? I’m not picking on you, other guys have said the same thing. I’m just wondering why guys could think this way while saying that ST stats are meaningless.
you’re getting a little too into this. simply put: pagan is playing very well, he’s young and showing promise. he’s never had a chance to play everyday. i think selling now would be selling high. spring training or not. not sure what’s so hard to about that line of thinking.
We really don’t know what Pagan’s ceiling is until he’s had more time to play on the major league level.
He’s 2+ years younger than Crisp so he’s got more room to develop as a player. And his OPS the last year was better than Crisp’s the last 2 years.
An argument can be made for either player. I don’t think it’s a slam dunk either way.
Some of us just prefer to go with the younger, cheaper, homegrown player.
And Endy is better defensively in the OF than Crisp. Better RZR. Better ZR. And a career Rate 2 only 1 point below Crisp’s which was skewed by an exceptionally good year with the glove in 2007. But look at Endy’s Rate2 stats year by year vs. Crisp’s and they’re better than his most years.
2+ years younger? Lol
OFF TOPIC:
also gotta love how fatso is blowing off this shelly duncan thing, saying “lets just move on… no one’s right… its spring training.”
id like to know what you all think fatso and the dog would say if milledge was still on the team and pulled a bush-league play like duncan did.
and did you hear duncan’s post game reaction? saying he was going for the glove and had no malicious intent? thats like saying you took shots of b-12 and lidocaine.
oh wait a minute…
Pagan is a great story for the Mets. Fingers crossed that he is for real once the season starts
There are three kinds of people in the world:
Those who support Angel Pagan
Those who do not support Angel Pagan
And those who have no idea who Angel Pagan is
I, for one, am a member of the group that supports him, and am glad that this trade was nothing but a fabrication. Prove ‘em wrong, Pagan (which you’ve been doing all ST), prove’em wrong.
How about we switch gears and talk about tool Shelley Duncan, who seems to think that sliding into a guy spikes first can be equated with a legitimate baseball play? Still would like to know why the catcher was blocking the plate in the first place if it’s “only Spring Training” at Joe Girardi put it. Of course Girardi, as Yankees manager, takes over the title of “Inventor of Baseball” from Joe Torre.
Predicatably, Yankees fans are giddy about “tough guy” Duncan…I wonder how they’d react if someone went spikes-first into St. Derek. If I were in Tampa, we’d find out!
The Yankees are, and always have been, cowards. Throwing bats? Hitting guys in the head with fastballs? But this is an all new low. People are saying he was out by 30 feet. So what was the point of sliding spikes first?
In regular season baseball that’s dirty. In spring training baseball that’s dirty and cowardly. Be a man, fight like a man. Don’t slide at people when there’s no need.
Catcher collisions have been happening in baseball forever, and are a part of the game, but spikes-first slides are always avoidable. Time for the Yanks to grow up.
I saw the replay–the catcher stepped up to catch the ball and wasn’t intentionally blocking the plate. He was a bit in front of the plate, and the runner had an opportunity to slide in and catch the back of the plate.
The runner went a little bit out of his way to slam into the catcher–was overzealous.
Who remebers Tim Sphear? The year Todd Hundley was out, he was leading the race to be starting catcher…got slammed into, broke his wrist, never heard from again
cocoa crispies are sooooo good!
reyes
castillo
wright
delgado
church
endy
pagan
schneider
that’s the line-up for the 20 games that beltran is likely to miss. thank goodness the pitching is solid and healthy.
You’re assuming Alou will miss every single game that Beltran does… it’s not so bad if he only misses half of them, or fewer.
You know, its funny. Like 3 days ago I was talking to my boss about how the Mets should pick up Crisp from Boston to pick up play time while Alou or Beltran is hurt, or if Church cant hit lefties. He told me I was an idiot and moved on.
How great would it be if my suggestion turned into a sick game of telephone that ended with Ed Coleman.
“Crisp to the mets purple monkey dishwasher”
Why is everyone sooo hard pressed on dumping this kid before he even has a chance to show us what he’s about. This guy has had a torrid ST and yea ok that doesnt mean squat once the real season starts, but damn give the kid a shot. This kid is OBVIOUSLY shooting for that job in LF and what will that do to the morale of the team seeing how this kid is tearing up ST and ooooo lets trade his a** and bring “a more proven(possibly older)”player. I say give him a shot, if he cannot cut it then shop around and see what you can get. He has earned that much at least. Who knows he may do better than we all think. Its that hunger/heart of wanting to make it to the show thats driving him….something that ALOT of people on this team have forgot…….I say we take advantage and see what the kids got.
Agreed with that. He never really had a chance to play every day to see what he can do. If they give him the job for a month (til Alou comes back), then we should have a pretty good idea.
And some guys do take a little longer to develop, so getting their first chance to play regularly at 26 might just work out.
Who is that dude tht everyone loved some much on Arizona (Byrnes?) Didn’t he not get a regular job until he was late 20’s or 30ish?
Yeah it is ST, but Pagan has shown some nice game the last couple of weeks.
that is true about byrnes…. last season was his first season with a starting job
almost everyone here is supporting Pagan, so preaching to the choir
If he’s gonna be traded, better to trade him now while he’s red-hot than after he’s failed.
He shouldn’t be considered untouchable by any stretch, I just think if we do trade it ought to be for someone who’s better than Crisp has been over the past two years, and who better fits the Mets’ needs than Crisp – more of a Nady type.
But the guy has earned some playing time somewhere, and if that’s the Mets then I’ll be happy.
A few posts touched on there might be smoke.
Eddie C got it from somewhere. So either he really misunderstood, or was flat out lied to, there was a reason for his report.
We do know that Omar makes the KGB look chatty in comparison to his front office. And I think Epstein keeps things close to the vest.
So maybe it was true, that at some level this swap was being discussed. And someone inside fouled up by letting Eddie in on the secret. And who knows, maybe it had been discussed and not finalized.
Point is, just because the Mets and Sox denied it, and it probably won’t happen, doesn’t mean that it was not discussed.
And based on histroy, Omar is probably talking to a whole bunch of GMs about a whole bunch of players. And as always, if a deal happens, it will be the one that no one saw coming (as Pagan for Crisp would have been if it was true).
I was thinking the same thing. I remember hearing about how speculation is the bane of trades, and so front offices deny deny deny until something is actually official. I guess we’ll never know unless it happens.
Glad to hear this is BS. I may not know what Pagan can do if given the chance to play full time, but I do know enough about Crisp to know that he’s garbage.
Yuo apparently don’t, since Crisp is far from garbage. 8.4 WARP3 last year. That would have placed him 4th among Mets regulars.
And don’t tell me WARP3 and other advanced stats don’t matter, it’s one of the best measures of a player’s overall value to a team.
Advanced stats don’t matter. Crisp was benched for most of the WS and was out played by a rookie.
Explain to me why we want him when we already have one of the best benches in the majors?
Good.
Look here. I want pagan to make it as much as the next man but there is a reason we did not hold on to him before. We need a better option in the of plain and simple. Pagan looks great now and maybe he could make it but can we really take that chance? Maybe but i would rather go with a proven player.Im not saying that i like crisp, because i do not, but if we can swing a guy like Nady , we would really be doing this team some good. It seems like Nady was a good guy to have in the clubhouse and we need that type.
N-A-D-Y
Give up Rustich and someone else and get me THE X FACTOR.
What’s with the Nady circlejerk? He was an average player.
it’s the ruben gotay effect. if a mets fan expects nothing from a player especially a young player and they have a decent couple of months the love affair begins. if they are traded or benched they instantly become a hall of famer.
crisp has more hits, runs, rbi, doubles, triples, stolen bases, walks, fewer k’s than nady. they has the same obs. crisp is a much, much better defensive player.
drop rbi from that. keep everything else.
Not sure what you’re looking at. They have comparable numbers and neither are great players, but Nady hits for more power in less of a hitters park.
Plus Nady can play first and might be more willing to accept a bench role when Alou comes back and if Delgado can be productive.
Imo, Nady is a good fit, Crisp is not.
looking at last year’s stats. nady had mre hr’s, but only 12 more rbi. in every other category including defense crisp is better.
nady is okay. i’d be happy to have him back, but it will require a lot more than pagan. if it was pagan for nady. i’d do it in a heart beat. not gonna happen
Crisp played in the best hitter’s park in baseball, and had 90 more ABs than Nady. So comparing hits, doubles, triples is completely meaningless and just undermines your credibility.
Their BA was within .002 (Nady’s marginally higher), their OBP was identical, and Nady’s SLG was 90 points higher.
And I’ll say it again:
Crisp played in the most hitter-friendly park in baseball
Nady’s offense is way better than Crisp’s, he plays corner OF and 1B, which is what the Mets need – we have 2 better defensive CFers than Crisp already – and he’s much more likely to accept the amount of time the club would ask either to sit on the bench.
In other words, Nady would be a vastly better fit for this club.
“the most hitter-friendly park in baseball”
repeating something, with emphasis, that is 100% wrong is kinda funny. thanks!
Angel in the outfield.
Opening Day yet?
is matt awake yet…need more posts…this is boring.
(my wife and i have a six day old baby to keep us up all night…)
CHARLIE!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!