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According to WFAN’s Ed Coleman, the Mets and Red Sox are discussing a swap of Angel Pagan for Coco Crisp.
…it’s not an official trade…all ed said was that 
it’s a rumor, which is gaining steam…of course, Mike and the Maddog then proceeded to discuss the potential deal as though it had already been completed, which it hasn’t…
In 2005 with the Indians, Crisp hit .300 with 18 HR and 15 stole bases.
However, since going to the Red Sox, in 2006 and 2007, spanning 940 at-bats, he’s hitting just .266 with 73 extra base hits, 50 stole bases while striking out 151 times.
…this trade is confusing to me…i suppose coco is the more established of the two players, but i just can’t figure out why either team is interested in such a swap…i’m wondering if maybe there is more to it, maybe a pitcher involved, etc…
Crisp will earn $4.75 million in 2008, followed by $5.75 million in 2009, after which he can be a free agent unless his team exercises a $8 million option for 2010.
…Update…3:01 pm…
Pagan just hit a two-run home run during today’s spring-training game against the Orioles.
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We reward a 100% hustle guy who is having a great spring by sending him off in exchange for a guy who hit in the .220s for most of last year?
Yeah we reward him.. by sending him to the 2007 WS champs and mostly likely the best team in baseball..
I would do this deal… I like Crisp and his speed and Pagan is a flash in the pan
No doubt you do this deal. You are trading a guy who is having a good spring but has proven nothing more than an inability to hit ML pitching for a guy who has an actual track record at this level. Classic no-brainer to me, assuming that this is the trade. I am not interested in putting together any type of large package for Coco Crisp.
Seems pointless.
The only difference between them (as far as I can tell) is that Crisp is more expensive.
Don’t forget, Crisp is a “winning” player. He has what, 2 rings? And he’s more battle tested than Pagan. If Willie had a say in this, you can bet he’s totally for it.
one ring and he was hardly a significant part of last year’s Red Sox
Yeah, wasn’t he left off the WS roster in favor of Ellsbury?
Crisp was so valued by the Red Sox they started Ellsbury over him in every WS game. He was benched for a very green rookie.
Can’t say I’d like it if it were to occur. I know Angel is not considered “young” but he’s on fire right now and deserving of a bench spot. We don’t need an every day LF we need to platoon for Alou while he’s out.
I certainly wouldn’t be mad if the trade happened but I think Pagan deserves a shot in a Mets uni…pass on Coco
Dammit. I like Pagan. He’s homegrown. And maybe he’s turned a corner with the bat due to working with HoJo. He’s younger than Crisp. Crisp hasn’t hit for two years. I really don’t see any benefit to this trade, not to mention Crisp costs a lot more than Pagan.
Yeah, I don’t agree with you.
If the trade is going to be Pagan straight up for Crisp, then there is not really any good reason not to make it. You say Crisp hasn’t hit for two years? When is it, other than this spring, that Pagan has ever hit?
Compare their numbers. While Crisp is far from one of my favorite players, the advantages you have with Crisp on your roster far outweigh the ones you have with Pagan. Don’t get emotionally attached to a guy who is having a good spring, there are guys like that every year. You have to look long term, and I just can’t see Pagan being better than Crisp over the course of the entire season.
Does Coco even have options left, so in case Alou comes back he can be optioned to AAA until Alou gets hurt again?
good point!
That’d be a nice trade, assuming Coco’s competently versatile around all 3 OF positions, and mostly assuming that he doesn’t make a stink about not being being a fulltime starter here.
If he is competent as a left fielder, he very well could find himself getting a lot of playing time with the Mets. His style of play is very NL-ish, he is a switch hitter, and he would be involved in just about every single game spelling both Beltran and Alou when he returns.
I don’t see many drawbacks to this. Pagan is a spare part.
I’ll take Coco over Angel any day. more major league time, championship experience… i mean do you people realize who you’re talking about here? Angel Pagan is hitting .400 in SPRING TRAINING and all the sudden we can’t trade him? Pagan’s effort has been nice, but i’d rather have Coco.
No one is saying Pagan is untouchable. It’s just hat Crisp is such a one-dimensional player with a poor bat who costs a lot of money.
And who cares if he was on a championship team. That doesn’t make you a good player, not to mention the fact that Ellsbury played a more critical role for the Red Sox in the postseason. They thought so much of Crisp that he started ZERO games in the WS.
This would be perfect for Boston. They get to dump a player and his salary who they don’t want anymore because they want Ellsbury to start. And they get a cheap strong bench player back in return.
There doesn’t appear to be any benefit for the Mets.
The benefit to the Mets is that Crisp returns to being one of the top young outfielders in the game.
How is he going to do that when his bat has disappeared over the last two years? Seems like the two decent offensive years he had with the bat were an anomaly.
It’s as speculative as Pagan improving his hitting this year. But right now I’d bet on Pagan to have a better year offensively while providing almost as good defense in CF or LF. And all at a much cheaper price.
I’m just not that impressed with Coco Crips. Great name, though.
How does a guy with a career 94 OPS+ and .329 OBP become known as “one of the top young outfielders in the game”? That’s crazy. Crisp is mediocre at best. Pagan might be slightly more or less mediocre. We don’t know yet because he’s never seen regular playing time. Why not give it to him instead of trading for an expensive, overrated guy we don’t even need? Especially one who whines about playing time.
Crisp is a career .280 hitter that has already done basically everything you could reasonably expect from Pagan at the ML level – 10-15 hrs., 60-70 RBI. He’s also only three years older than Pagan and a superior fielder
The only thing that doesn’t make sense is why you’d trade for a guy who’s already complaining about playing time when you can’t guarantee him a position – unless the team is more concerned about Beltran’s health than it’s letting on…
When someone’s bat disappears for two whole years, it’s a warning sign. The two good years he had offensively may be an anomaly which pushed his career numbers up a bit.
I’d rather take a chance on Pagan.
That makes no sense.
Why take a chance on a guy who has shown an inability to hit rather than a guy who has shown he is better in just about every aspect of the game even in his worst year than the guy you’d be trading for him.
If the Sox would take Pagan for Crisp you absolutely have to do it. Surely, it could bite you in the rump by the time it’s over, but at this stage you’d be foolish to not make the trade if it is really on the table.
Because that guy has options, is $4M cheaper, is almost as good defensively, and had a better OPS last year in the majors than Crisp had the last two years.
At any rate is appears to be a moot point. The trade was just an unfounded rumor.
One dimensional? What are you talking about? Crisp is an above average outfielder with pop in his bat and above average speed. That’s not one dimensional.
The biggest issue I have with this trade is not trading away Pagan, but getting Crisp. By the Mets getting Crisp they will be satisfied that they got the right-handed hitting outfielder that they desperately need, when they will still need the righty!
Keep in mind that only the mets know the health of Beltran…
I don’t disagree with you, but I doubt that the Mets view Crisp as anything more than an upgrade to Pagan. He is a switch hitting Pagan with better skills, really.
Pagan is a switch hitter too. And his OPS last year was slightly better than Crisp’s the last two years. I don’t see Crisp as necessarily an upgrade except for defense. And it’s a small upgrade.
It’s the biggest category to upgrade in when you are talking about your fourth OF.
Man I hope this is just Boston spin.. Omar had better not do this.. Crisp has absolutely 0 pop and average arm and a pretty good sized salary. This would be a huge mistake… Omar you’ve done enough for us.. We’ll deal with what we have.. Thanks but no thanks
And Pagan has done what in the majors in the last 5 years?
MIKE PELFREY WAS THE BEST METS PITCHER LAST SPRING HOW DID THAT TURN OUT….SPRING TRAINING STATS ARE BEYOND MEANINGLESS.
Crisp has reached double digits in HR’s twice in his career. That is not bad for a guy who’s game is based on speed, and it certainly does not qualify as “0 pop”.
How strange because SNY just interviewed Pagan and the kid really seemed happy to be back with the Mets. With the way Pagan was playing this Spring and the way Crisp has played the past couple of years I don’t know if I like this deal. I know Crisp is nasty when it comes to defense, but his bat is pretty weak.
I guess I’m in the minority, but I do this deal in a heartbeat. Sox fans really like this guy, because he’s a good defender, and a solid player all around.
Pagan is too unproven for me to feel comfortable with.
I’d like to see Omar make this move. I hope he can get the Sox to take Show, in order to offset salary, and get that bum off our team.
Seriously, a guy who’s done nothing in the majors vs a guy who’s put up a .300 season? At least you know the potential is there for Crisp.
NEVER put too much stock in Spring Training.
Don’t you think Chavez and Crisp are redundant? They are basically the same player after all.
Both bring great D, tons of speed, neither can hit, Endy has a better arm … oh and Crisp will cost a buttload over the next two years (over $10M when you take into account his $500K buy out for 2010).
Stick with Pagan, he’s younger and MUCH cheaper.
Endy can’t hit !!! BLASPHMY!!!!!!
I agree that Crisp is overrated, and overpaid… but, think about how weakened our team was when Chavez went down?
Crisp and Chavez are similar, except for salary… which is why I hope they convince the Sox to take Show.
I have a bunch of Sox fans who love this guy, (but like Ellsbury even more.)
I love that quote… Never put too much stock in Spring Training…
So true, so true…
Never put too much stock in solitary .300 avg seasons, either. Especially when they’re ancient history.
Not sure where you get that sox fans love Crisp. I’ve been here in Boston for a while now, and all the Sox fans I know hate him, and are in love with Elsbury. Crisp was absolutely awful with the bat last year, and we already have a centerfielder. Also, Crisp has been whining the past few weeks that he wants to be a starter, so we’d be getting someone very unhappy to be a part time player.
the only way i like it if we get $$$ towards coco’s contract, coco’s gettin paid alittle more than 5 million, pagan is younger and deserves to play in the big leagues with the mets, but if we can get crisp for the same price or alittle more id be ok with that
Pagan deserves nothing.
Sure he is currently hitting in ST, and he is really making those pitchers with the really big numbers on their uniforms sorry. But the simple fact is that Pagan has proven to be overmatched at the plate against ML pitching every time he has been given a shot. Crisp has had a tumultuous couple of years with the Sox. He came to them with big expectations as the guy who was going to replace Damon, got hurt, got replaced by a young kid, and was unhappy that he was not given the chance to earn his job back.
It is quite possible that Crisp could be the poster boy for the player who benefits from a change of scenery. Crisp has skills, and we could be in for a big treat if we are the ones who give him the chance to get on track and give him at bats.
Yeah Pagan has been busting it in ST, but if the trade went through he would be going to the World Series Champs… couldn’t imagine he’d be that pissed
Crisp certainly has more upside then Pagan. Just two years ago he had a .810 OPS and hit 16 homers. Pagan has never really approached that. He’s also a crazy good outfielder. Hardball Times has his defense at 8.5 win shares (two more then Beltran, just as a comparison.) I wonder if they would consider putting him in center and beltran in left, at least until Beltran is fully healthy. Probably not, just something to think about…
i hope not, remember when we put mike cameron in RF bc we had beltran.
Can Crisp play first base? Right now, Delgado is looking like Ryan Howard without the home runs.
…and the BA…and the OBP…
right now delgado is pretty much doing what anyone else on this blog would do in ST games.
not true. I’d play every game. Even if it involves a 2 hour bus ride, I’m there! Instead of 0-4, I may even be 1-30. Take that Carlos!
Heck, at least I’d strike out looking (as opposed to getting beat by fastballs)
You guys are beat.
I’d win the batting title!
um…its a great deal???
Crisp will play left and fill in, in center when Beltran needs a day off. He’s a great hustle player who is loved in Boston, no one wants to let him go but there is no room in their outfield.
I am all for trading Pagan for Crisp, but your assumption that Coco is loved in Boston is just wrong. Most Sox fans hate Crisp and would trade him for just about anything to get him off the roster.
Because he stinks and is way overrated.
On the Mike and the Mad Dog note, yesterday the Mad Dog made this quote about the Yankees use of Joba:
“We don’t know if he’ll be a great starter, we know he is a great relief pitcher.”
Do we? From what…30 major league innings? These guys still find fault with Wright and Reyes all the time, however, after 1/5 a season, they can say that Joba is a “GREAT” relief pitcher.
Not a big deal, just annoying.
There’s no such thing as a “great” relief pitcher considering it’s the most inconsistent position on a team. You could be great one year and crappy the next.
Add to that the fact that the biggest game he was involved in ended with him complaining about bugs!!
You are nuts if you don’t think this is a great move for the Mets. This is whats called Selling HIGH in negotiations. Like Hotcorner said above, this is Spring training hitting against guys who pitched in the California Penal League last year.
We would be able to have Coco play left until Alou gets back then have some type of 4 man rotation to keep alou and beltran fresh and still have endy as the late inning replacement, yes he had a down year but Pagan is not gonna be hitting like this during the season. 3 Weeks working with Hojo has not turned this guy’s career around, if you think it has you are kidding yourself.
Major coup by Omar if he can pull it off
I totally agree with you. He would allow Beltran to take a day off, and we wouldn’t lose defense, only his bat.
Can you imagine a close game, late innings, and Crisp, Beltran, and Chavez roaming the outfield and Wagner on the mound?
Pitching and defense… Omar preaches it…
I really hope they can get them to take Show’s contract.
Yes, I couldn’t agree more…Angel Pagan over Crisp???Really? This is a no brainer deal, epecially if the Red Sox would take Show OR Sosa in this deal. Almost stupid not to do this deal if it is really out there…
thank you guys, some people have common sense and know that while Crisp is a very good backup and a subpar starter Pagan is a par AAA player who has had a good spring
Sell HIGH, he will never be worth this much again
Exactly. I’m very much in the camp that this is sell high/buy low for us.
I don’t want Beltran taking days off, especially if he’s going to replaced with a guy with no bat.
We need power and relative youth from one of the corner outfield positions, not more more speedy defensive types. Juan Rivera is still at the top of my list as far as potential candidates go.
I’d be with you if he hadn’t missed just about all of last season due to injury.
Lets see what Pagan can give us.. If Alou is still broken by all star break, I’m sure we can find a better option somewhere else.. Give this kid a shot
By the AllStar break, Crisp will have more trade value than Pagan.
Still broken? The best we can hope for is that by the All-Star break the Super Glue is still holding Alou’s parts together…
does seem pointless. Crisp pretty much stinks, and he won’t give the team anything they don’t already have. And wasn’t he making a fool of himself spouting off about not being a back up?
Forget about the spring, in 2007, in the majors, pagan was a more productive hitter than Crisp (factoring in the difference in ABs).
I can’t get to the stats now, but that would be an interesting visual…
The only way this makes any sense is if there is a part II to the deal, and Crisp would be redirected elsewhere?
Last I heard the Cubs wanted him. Maybe he gets redirected for Murton to the Mets?
Now, Pagan for Murton, that makes sense (at least for the Mets!)
I don’t get your logic. I did the comparison in the stats, and I still don’t see where you think Pagan was ever more productive at the plate at the ML level than Crisp was. Taking everything into consideration, Crisp is an all around better player than Pagan is and it isn’t even really that close.
And there is no way that the Cubs would trade Murton to get Crisp. Unless the Cubs have recently hired Duquette?
Anyone ever stop to think that maybe if we do make this trade, that the Mets have plans to package him with someone else to get a different player that fits our needs better?? Mets don’t need a CFer but many other teams could use Crisp.
I did! Look up /\
no brainer ….. flipping a kid who is playing out of his mind right now with peak value for a prover MLB outfielder ….
while i think crisp is overrated …. with alou and church healthy, what team in all of baseball wouldnt want CoCo as their 4th outfielder?
Um…Boston?
incorrect. the press has it that boston wants him as their 4th but he will b*tch all season in that role.
The way Willie uses his bench, he’d be playing a lot.
plus Alou will miss 1/2 the season, so that is 60-80 starts right there!
and he wouldn’t bitch about doing the same thing here?
No, he wouldn’t bitch because he’d be taking all of Endy Chavez’s AB’s. Instead of the unhappy Coco that Boston would have, we’ll have an unhappy Endy.
Buy low Sell high
makes sense to me
GREATEST NAME EVER….
APPLE = GOOD
COWBELL MAN = SHEA PLAYING SWEET CAROLINE
Sit back and think
does anyone really think we are going to be saying 3 months from now ….. “damn, we never should have traded Angel Pagan” ?
come on now …
This is moronic. Crisp is, as I recall, an excellent defender, but why flip Pagan, a guy who came up through your organization, for a guy like Crisp, who — though he has a really cool name — doesn’t hit well and costs a lot of money?
He’s great with the glove, do you remember the catch he made off Wright in Boston?
I’ll take an OF of Crisp, Chavez and Beltran when Ollie Perez is pitching…fly balls…fly balls.
I don’t know how i actually feel about this trade yet, but one thing’s for sure, being a homegrown should have ZERO effect in whether to trade someone.
There is a reason the Sox want Pagan over Crisp.. and his salary is just on piece of that puzzle…
I mean, they did Rule Five some kid from Minnesota named Ortiz. I wonder what happened to that guy?
Yeah, they want a 4th OF who can catch the ball. Crisp will bitch in that role, while Pagan knows he would be very lucky to have it.
I’d imagine this would allow the Mets to rest Beltran on occasion with a bona fide center fielder, play left otherwise and/or platoon with Church.
At least Crisp is a known quantity. Pagan could be great, and he could be a flash in the pan. I’d be inclined to give Pagan a shot myself, as I’m not thrilled with Crisp’s bat. PLus, the Sox are one of those teams that, when they’re willing to part with someone, I get suspicious (see also A’s, Braves). But I don’t think I’d lose too much sleep over it, either.
let me reiterate … i dont really like Crisp … but how can you say that making this trade would not improve this team, even if ever so slightly?
You wonder whther the fact that Beltran has yet to play an inning in CF yet might have a thing or two to do with it.
Even if not, Coco is an outstanding fielder, hardly a worse offensive threat than Pagan, and a nice chip to have when some other team’s centerfielder goes down.
Thats my thinking on it too. Beltran has yet to play an inning in CF and may not be ready for the start of the season…reason being that starting this week…all NL spring training games are played using NL rules meaning no DH. So if Beltran is not yet ready to roam CF soon…he may not get many live AB except in a sim game…I think this has as much to do about Beltran than it does finding someone to replace Alou for three weeks.
Maybe there is some fear that Beltran won’t be able to play CF at the start of the season.
Agree with all supporters of this deal. Many people thought the Red Sox pulled off a bit of a coup letting Damon walk and replacing him with Crisp. Now with Ellsbury in the mix they need some versatility and would probablyl ike to dump salary (maybe they are looking at adding a starter with Beckett banged up and Schilling out).
Also bear in mind the red Sox gave up Andy Marte, who was a STUD prospect at the time, to get this guy. That’s how highly rated he was.
This is a guy who could start in LF for a long time while Alou is out….let’s not get crazy over Pagan – to me he and Chavez are the same type player.
There is more to this deal….We are going to get Coco to ship off to the pirates w/ sosa for Nady
if that were the case i would be thrilled.
Whoa, whoa, whoa mets fans, Sox fans do NOT like coco, at least not enough to cry for him when he leaves. We like his defense and occasional horizontal superman catch in the outfield. But his batting is as limp as Bob Dole’s arm and he has been known to pout about various things.
Unfortunately I think part of this reputation is because he is unfairly compared to Jacoby Ellsbury, AKA the second coming of young Nomar who is DEFINITELY a fan favorite (remember the free tacos and the .438 average in the world series?).
I do think that if he was willing to sit on the bench without griping, he would be much more beloved. I do think that on almost any other team without a starting CF he will excel, especially in the NL.
Brian Scalabrine is no fan favorite either.
This is confusing, isn’t Crisp unhappy in Boston because he doesn’t want to ride the pine? Well when Alou comes back isn’t that exactly what he would be doing? So 8 weeks from now we have an unhappy veteran asking to be traded again? I don’t get why you would purposely bring a negative into the locker room for a short fix.
Twins needed a centerfielder and had the chance to get Crisp instead of Carlos Gomez and turned that down. That’ tells you all you need to know about Crisp.
Yeah, but think about the Twins salary situation. A younger, talented CF under control for years, or a older veteran with a hefty salary.
I’d take Gomez too… By the way, with Delmon Young and Carlos Gomez, they’re going to have a good OF for a while.
Crisp made $3.8M last year. If he was worth that, I’m sure the Twins would have found a way to handle the cost. He’s young too.
08:$4.75M, 09:$5.75M, 10:$8M club option ($0.5M buyout)
no way the twins are paying that when they can have a cf maing the min. for 6 years
All the more reason the Mets should stay away from Crisp. Endy can replicate what Crisp does at a cheaper price. Pagan can possibly provide a better bat than Crisp.
the mets are not the twins. that’s nothing for the mets and endy has never had a season that matches crisp’s best seasons.
twist and spin all you like
Endy is not Crisp… Endy is a great bench player and althoguh he’s a good defensive player he is nothing close to Crisp defensively.
Offensively, Crisp has shown much more power potential in his career than Endy and has done it over a full season while Endy never has.
Pagan won’t sniff Crisp’s numbers this year.
His career ZR in CF is better than Crisp’s. Not only that but his career ZR for both corner OF positions is better than Crisp’s.
Endy is a better defensive OFer than Crisp.
As for offense, I bet if Pagan gets considerable playing time, his numbers will be better than Crisp’s/.
Btw – funny to think if this happens how Crisp was involved in alot of their Johan proposals.
As for Nady, what in hell would the Pirates want with Crisp’s contract??
thats the plus side to being a wealthy team we give them sosa crisp AND $$$
Disagree with this deal.
We need a right handed hitter. Coco Crisp is nothing more than another Endy.
But maybe we can get a package deal and Tony the tiger or count chocula can be thrown in and they can play first when Delgado goes down.
Couldn’t Church fill in at first base while Crisp played in the OF?
I mean, then everyone who still isn’t convinced that Endy Chavez is not an everyday player could have one more opportunity to watch him flounder at the plate when he is exposed for what he really is.
Look at what happened to the Mets bench when Endy got hurt last year. All the more reason to make the trade.
Man, why is everyone busting on Endy… I LOVE ENDY!!
The fact that Crisp is being discussed as an acquisition make me a little more nervous that Beltran will not be ready to play the field by opening day. You can accept Crisp’s bat as a slick fielding CF but as a corner he is too weak a hitter.
This move makes complete sense for Boston given Crips’s salary. Makes no sense for the Mets to pay that salary for a part-timer unless Boston sends along cash and Beltran is not healthy.
As far as trading Pagan, it would be the ultimate example of buying low and selling high.
Gotta say guys, I catch a ton of Red Sox games, and I’m a big Coco Crisp supporter. Believe me, I’m a bigger Ellsbury fan, but I still appreciate the skills that Coco brings to the table. It’s a mystery to me what has happened with his bat, but even in an offensive funk, he finds ways to get on base – he’s very effective bunting for base hits and would be a positive influence on Reyes is that respect. I also think he’s a player just completely wasted in the AL. In the NL, especially playing under a guy like Willie Randolph, Coco’s speed and versatility will make him a fan favorite at Shea. He can spell Beltran in center field, especially when you’re hesitant to throw Endy in there against a tough lefty. He could also push Ryan Church for playing time if everyone gets completely healthy. I think this guy would surprise a lot of you.
I don’t think there is any real mystery with Coco’s bat. The reality is that he’s not that great a hitter.
He can’t take a walk, and he DID hit around .300 for two years, but then his luck ran out and he reverted to his normal .260 BAvg over the last two seasons.
Yes he plays great D and is fast, but the Mets already have that, and at a significantly lower cost, with Endy.
Better to roll the dice with Pagan as a 4th/5th (when Alou returns) OF then to bring in Crisp. And remember, Crisp wasn’t happy riding the pine for the eventual WS winner, how is going to deal with sitting as a Met?
He’s got better plate discipline than Pagan…
Pagan’s been mostly a pinch hitter, so it’s not fair to judge his plate discipline.
Crisp has less pop, which is something we need.
Pagan’s younger, cheaper and has options. I think he’s a better fit.
In baseball $, Endy isn’t even that much cheaper (hey, whats a million or 2 among friends?)
If Beltran is not going to be ready for opening day (which is very possible)…then this trade makes perfect sense.
crisp is a better offensive player than many of the current starters. crisp’s 2007 #’s on the mets would have been:
2nd in triples
3rd in stolen bases
4th in runs, hits, rbi, walks
All batting at the top of the order where he wont be batting with the Mets. I agree with others who say we need more of a power bat on the corners. Also when Beltran and Alou are healthy, he’s going to be on the bench a lot. You’re not going to take their bats out of the lineup that often to keep Crisp happy, especially if you think Delgado isnt going to hit this year. The RH-power hitting OF/1B is the need.
actually the vast majority of his ab’s were not in the lead-off spot. they were as 7 or 8 hitter.
is it possible this would be done to pair Crisp with sosa or Show for something that makes a bit more sense?
I think the same thing. Could be spinned off in another trade for a legit OF bat with pop.
Interesting. If he can rebound and show the flashes of power he had in 2004-5, he could be a real asset, a legit starter if we need him to be; if he hits more like he did in 2006-7, he’d basically be a slightly older, more proven but overpaid version of Pagan. I can see the rationale for this on both sides.
I’d like to see Pagan succeed here, of course, but I wouldn’t mind seeing Crisp succeed here either.
Interesting fact: Boston traded Guillermo Mota (among others) to get him!
Looks like Omar might be pulling a buy low sell high deal. The kid is hot but who knows if it will last. I would like to hold on to him but if something better comes along he has to explore all options.
When I look up Crisp’s stats I see he only has 4 AB’s this spring.
What’s up with that? is he even healthy enough to replace Alou or Beltran.
Mike, Crisp is day to day with a strained groin and a rootcanal, so he’s not seriously injured.
I think I’d do this deal from both sides. Sox don’t need Crisp anymore…Ellsbury has had a good spring and obviously did a great job last yr. I thought Sox would try to trade Crisp for bullpen help, but they could use help on the bench, which is what Pagan would bring.
I dont know how well Crisp would be @ another OF position, as I remember him playing CF all the time, while Ellsbury or someone else would fill in for Manny or Drew. Crisp is a phenominal fielder and is a decent hitter. His hitting is definitely frustrating at times, but he can also use his speed to his advantage. I think he would do a pretty good job in New York.
you got to take coco if this is legit. we all know beltran will go out with a broken finger nail sometime this summer and what better replacement then coco in center. this guy is a beast CF and can track down balls just as well as beltran. this way if we do lose beltran or alou or both which is bound to happen we will have coco and chavez as defensive replacements. this team is built on pitching gentlemen and this trade makes perfect sense. anyways, guys catch fire for 3 weeks at a clip all the time i.e. benny agbayani. trade this guy while he has value . please……
This deal makes a lot of sense. Crisp is a superb defender who has shown flashes of power. He got hurt early on in his stay in Boston, and never really seemed to recover from that. But I think if he’s given a chance to play every day here (well, for about 6 weeks anywa) he will provide more production than Pagan.
I can live with Pagan, but if they have a chance to get Crisp, I’d say do it.
Somewhat detracting from his reputedly spectacular defense is the fact that Crisp has a pretty weak arm. To me, that cuts back on his defensive value, and if he’s a good flycatcher.
pagan was so talented that omar sold him to the cubs in january 2006 for cash.
Omar is rarely high on players who he didn’t acquire himself. He seems to have a bias against them.
Humber, Bannister, Flores etc.
definitely do this trade if it is just Pagan straight up. Pagan is a very good bench player but Coco is about above average starting wise with SOLID defense and speed at a not so expensive contract. He could play about 1/2 a year here with Alou and Beltran injured and then play LF for a year next year for us while we groom F-Mart more.
this would be perfect and we are the Mets so $$$ shouldn’t be a problem. I doubt it would just be Pagan though…
how can you not like this deal? I remember when the news they traded for Pagan went up this sites collective response was huge “Yawn”. If you can flip a .250/.306/.415 career 5th outfielder for a great fielder whos hit .280/.329/409 hitter and whos started on very good teams his whole career, you have to do it.
This actually could allow us to move Beltran to LF or RF while Alou is injured and posibily permanently next year. I could live with a Beltran, Coco, Church OF with Fmart on the way. Then you can concentrate on 1B and SP this offseason.
I doubt a two-time winning Gold Glove CF’er will be moved to a corner, especially coming from the previous back-to-back years.
You are prob. right assuming he is healthy enough to play CF.
Anyone who doesn’t like this deal for the Mets is nuts… Crisp is possibly the best defensive outfielder in baseball and is – AT WORST – Pagan’s equal offensively.
This would be a SPECTACULAR deal for the Mets.
Carlos Beltran would beg to differ with the first part of that statement.
Good point. But I’m pretty sure they’d like Beltran stay in CF despite Crisp being the better CF.
I am starting to buy into the Beltran angle. Either they are covering their behinds in case he can’t play, or more likely, that he can’t play center.
If Beltran needs to save his legs a bit, let him play LF while Alou is out, and Crisp in CF. Then beltran can run at 1/2 speed, and still cover more ground than Moises.
When Alou comes back, Crisp to the bench, although he will get a couple starts per week for Alou, and maybe 1 each for Beltran and Church?
And possibly, you could see a permanenet change in 2009, with Beltran in LF, and Crisp in RF, with F Mart and CHurch splittinf RF? Now that is a fast, good D OF!
Option B? Alou comes back, beltran is healthy, and they flip Crisp for whatever they need at the time?
Basically, Crisp can do everything that Pagan could, but is probably more projectable, although the bif thing he can’t do is get sent to AAA!
I just posted the same thing. I agree on all points. Next season/ while Alou is out Beltran, Coco, Church would make for a great OF. When Fmar is ready someone can be traded or he can learn 1B. I wonder if Church can play 1B?
I can’t see how this is for just Pagan. It would have to be with Show or someone. The Sox don’t need a salary dump do they? Unless its the fact that Pagan has options and Coco does not?
Pagan has yet to play anything even resembling full season in the majors. How are you all so quick to write him off?
The guy has proven he can hit so far in spring training, and we’re not looking for a guy to fill-in for a majority of the season. Trading a homegrown prospect who has shown potential for a player on the decline, who will rot on the bench once Alou is back, is pointless. Throw in the fact that we have to pay this useless outfielder several millions more than Pagan, and it’s just ridiculous.
If we were looking for a full-time replacement, then go for it. Put Crisp will contribute for the month that Alou is gone, and then just be an incredibly expensive bench player, who isn’t even worth the money he’s being payed.
Pagan has hit well in ST before and then came back to hit .247. Crisp is an established MLB player that is still relatively young and has incredible defense.
I still can’t believe that we could get him for Pagan, however.
Players have good springs every year. Pagan is a mediocre player. Crisp is better than him in pretty much every way.
why not just sign kenny lofton and keep pagan? coco crisp is kenny lofton-lite. and we all know lofton’s teams always end up in the playoffs!
Kenny Lofton has never played defense like Crisp. He is literally one of the top 3 defensive players in baseball at any position.
If this is true, then the Mets must have the two top defensive players in baseball, because both Endy and Beltran are better defensive CFers than Crisp.
Or maybe Crisp’s defensive is amongst the top 3 most overrated at any position? His arm is limp.
Kenny Lofton and Endy Chavez are left handed hitters, coco is a switch hitter. we don’t need another left bat
i dont think anyone is going to be upset either way nor should be. i would do the deal because having defensive depth is important. crisp cant hit at all though and hurt me two years ago in fantasy coming off his one good year.
i know he makes some money but would only be here this year and next. also, might make a good platoon with martinez next year.
if they do this i think they are worried about Beltran’s injury and want the defense in there to back him up. with Alou nonexistant and Beltran hurt, this can make sense.
on the other hand, you cant get someone who can hit better? defense or offense right now?
I’d do this trade in a heartbeat. Then, I’d bat Crisp 9th on days that Santana and Maine are pitching (potentially our 2 best hitting pitchers) and we’d have Crisp, Reyes, Castillo batting ahead of Beltran and Wright. Imagine that!
Remind me, how many ABs did it take for Maine to get his first hit? And what’s his BA?
If you’d said El Duque and Santana, you might possibly have had some credibility, but even then you’d have been tripping.
Omar, Do it NOW !- At his best, Angel Pagan doesn’t project
to being Coco Crisp!-Crisp is an established starting OFer
on good teams while Pagan has been unable to even snag a
regular roster spot on bad teams. Look, we don’t need a guy
to be a world beater just be part of a corner rotation with Church and the Rabbi once he returns AND be the 6th or 7th
best bat in the line-up. This is a very solid more given the cost
despite what- anskyee mike and the mutt proclaim. Same guys
who didn’t know the RFer for the redsox a couple days ago.
Oh, if this deal happens, Endy is really, really expendable. When Alou comes back, he gets bumped to 5th OF, and is not even really needed as a defensive caddy (Crisp can do that too).
Maybe part 2 of the deal (if it happens) isn’t that Crisp gets flipped, but maybe Endy goes elsewhere?
Then the 5th OF spot can be the mythical RH OF/1B back up guy?
If this happens, when Alou Beltran and Chruch start, the bench would be:
Crisp, Castro, Easley, Anderson, ??? ?? could be a 1B/OF, or a MI guy (like Gotay).
Looked at this way, Crisp replaces Endys spot on the roster, but probably gives you more value, especailly as a starter. Plus he hits from the right side.
Pagan brought in to pinch hit and he just went deep…..Is that a sign?
With Two outfield spots open, and beltrans injury this could be a great/huge deal
Home Run Angel Pagan, gives Mets a 4-2 lead
Pagan just hit a two-run homer to give the Mets’ a 2-run lead. DON’T DO IT OMAR!!!!!!!!!
I will be so upset.
The home run not withstanding, Crisp is a better player than Pagan.
it’s spring training.
Pagan 2 run homer!!
If Omar can’t get this deal done (and it will probably be because he was unwilling to throw in a piece ALONG with Pagan) I want to hear from all the Pagan supporters when he’s playing CF for the New Orleans Zephyrs by mid may.
Bingo.
The fact that he probably will be playing for the Zephyrs by mid-May is actually part of Pagan’s value.
He has options.
Crisp wouldn’t have to clear waivers, but he would have to consent to being sent down. Given that he’s a prima donna, the chances of him consenting are zero or less.
We might need crisp because of beltrans injury. He is the bets center fielder in baseball, now that Andrew Jones is 300lbs. Beltran should take some action at 1st base.
Err, do some research.
We already have not one but two center fielders who are defensively better than Crisp – Beltran and Chavez.
My point is Beltran is injured, and although I love chavez he was injured last year too. Maybe you should do some research
I think the fact that he just hit a homerun proves its just a rumor. You take guys out of the game that you’re about to trade. Not put them into the game.
WTF that didn’t make any sense.
Whats so hard to understand? A player about to be traded is not put on the field to keep him from getting injured and killing the deal. I remember several players that were actually taken out of games because they were about to be traded. Didn’t that happen to Joel Youngblood when he was with the Mets? So from his playing right now, the whole trade thing is pretty much just a rumor.
It’s not because of Beltran’s injury!!! Beltran played in the game today and is only recovering from arthoscopic surgery. He will be fine for the season and will play CF.
With that said, Beltran and Crisp are likely the two best CFs in baseball right now.
With Crisp-Beltran-Church, the Mets would have, hands down, the best defensive outfield in baseball and it would save a tremendous amount of runs for our predominantly flyball pitching staff.
Endy has a better career ZR in CF than crisp. So the Mets already have the two best CFers in the game with Endy and Beltran. I don’t think Crisp’s bat is any better than Endy’s.
Zone rating is not a very good stat to use when measuring defense.
Baseball Prospectus’ Rate2 and FRAA stats are better indicators. Crisp is better defensively than both Beltran and Chavez, but Chavez and Beltran are both very good also.
Both RZR and ZR rate Chavez as being better than Crisp last year in CF. Not only that, but their career Rate2 numbers differ only by 1 — with Crisp at 103 and Endy at 102.
I think it’s safe to say that Endy is every bit as good if not better than Crisp in CF.
As a starter Coco’s bat would be much better than Endy’s. Endy’s value is as a def replacement/ pinch runner/ bunter etc. Not as a starter.
Are you basing that on Crisp’s last two years with the bat, or the two years before that?
I’d tend to go with the more recent form.
Or his career average, which also stinks.
“Pagan just hit a two-run home run during today’s spring-training game against the Orioles.”
Man, this kid really wants to stay put. And why not, as a player I’m sure he doesn’t want to mess with this roll he’s on.
Why does this deal mean we aren’t going to go out there and still get a big RH bat to play 1B? Can’t they still do that? It’s not like Angel Pagan was going to be the key to any deal.
On that note, did Craig Wilson ever sign anywhere? He can play 1B and act as an emergency catcher so that Castro can pinch hit more often. He’s not great, but a nice piece to add to the bench.
“A Mets official chuckled and said no when asked if the team had traded for Red Sox outfielder Coco Crisp, as had been rumored. The Mets need an outfielder, but they want to see what they have in spring sensation Angel Pagan and whether Endy Chavez is healthy enough to play against righties in Moises Alou’s absence. They entered spring training needed a righthanded bat in the outfielder, and they still do. But they expect Alou to be back at some point.”
courtesy of David Lennon
cool with me…
Whew. Good news. Much ado about nothing then.
STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!!
Pagan stinks!!!! LAstings Milledge had tremendous Springs the past two seasons and couldn’t supplant Shawn Green but the Mets want to give Pagan a shot?!?!!?
That’s insanity!!!
you’re right. Angel Pagan and Lastings Milledge are obviously the same person and are therefore going to have the exact same seasons. Omar should know this and for that matter, any young player who hasn’t done much in the Major Leagues yet should get traded away for a big contract just because the person they are getting traded for has MLB experience… Do you think we could get Melky Cabrera for Fernando Martinez?
Omar traded this guy to the cubs for CASH and then traded corey coles and ryan meyers for him. He stinks. bottom line.
Uhhhh… Fernando Martinez is a top 20 prospect in baseball.
Pagan has never been a top prospect, not even in the Mets organization.
He’s also 25 years old, he’s not even a prospect anymore.
Lastings Milledge was also a much better prospect than Pagan has ever been. And my point is that in addition to being a much better prospect than Pagan has ever been, Milledge also had a TREMENDOUS spring last year and they didn’t give him a chance to start over Shawn Green.
Pagan has a .711 career minor league OPS and his Major League performance hasn’t been any better. Crisp is at least as good as Pagan in every facet of the game and there are some areas in which he’s vastly superior, not to mention he’s shown the ability to do it over a full season.
you do realize you can be a good player without being consider a top prospect, right?
Of course but Pagan has done NOTHING to suggest he will become a good player.
Pagan has never been given an extended chance to prove he can be a good player at the major league level.
Crisp has and has proven he’s an inconsistent player with a generally poor bat.
Pagan is 2+ years younger so at least there’s more room there for growth.
Can Church play 1B? He’s LH and quick.
Think about this and how much money it would save for pitching.
Reyes SS
Castillo 2nd
Wright 3rd
Beltran LF
Church 1B
Coco CF
Fmart RF
Schnieder C
That would be the best defensive team in the majors.
Someone made this comment after the Marlon Anderson/Church collision, sorry I forget who it was but we can’t keep just taking guys and playing them out of position, this is why collisions like that happen. Also why the Cameron/Beltran collision happened.
Also First base isn’t as easy as its made out to be, I’m sure #17 would have some comments on this
I am not saying it is but just because of one collision does not mean that a player can’t learn to play a new position. Heck look at Pete Rose he got a GG at a few positions. So a guy like Adam Dunn can play LF and 1B but not Church who is much quicker? I am not saying it’s easy but it is possible.
Yes but he moved from second, to third, to first. He was use to picking up groundballs and reacting to throws. A career outfielder would have a tough time learning how to field grounders, grounders that could come at him hard. Look at Piazza’s troubles there. It’s so much easier for an infielder to go to the outfield than the other way around.
Just one point about Rose, he was a GG OF too. But to mention Piazza every time someone suggest to make a move is to forget much more mobile guys like Biggio moving from C to 2b to CF or Bench moving from C to 3B or Molitor coming up as a SS. Again, I am not saying its easy but a moblie athlete that works hard at a position can most likely learn to play it.
Meant to say Yount coming up as a SS.
i thnk the reason the sox would do this is so they dont have to hear him complain about not starting; however, if he comes to the mets he wont be more than a platoon player and would prob only get a few more at bats then he would have in boston…plus hes making all that money…i am starting to like pagan eventho this is most likely just a flash in the pan as someone said earlier…for me to do this im not taking on any of that salary.
I don’t get it. The reason Crisp wants out of Boston is because he wants to be a regular everyday outfielder. Can the Mets promise that? If not won’t he just want out ASAP?
I just think he’ll have more opportunities than he will in Boston, so it’s a plus for him.
Oagans value is high. Remember Jay Soe (that asian guy) same situation
the only reason I would do this, is if the Mets turn around and send Crisp to lets say Pittsburgh, with Joe Smith and Showenweiss for Nady. Of Course eating some of the Showenweiss salary
Maybe this deal is with an eye towards still getting Randy Wynn. Who do the giants have in CF, Dave Roberts?? just a thought
Now I know nobody would oppose to a Pagan-Randy Wynn swap.
they signed this dude named aaron rowand. you may remember him as the guy that played gold glove CF for the phillies while hitting 30 HRs.
Joh maine could hit 30 HRs in Philly
ah you are wise. i take that back. Just trying to get some rumors started. Can we make up any other rumors?
Maybe Alou isn’t coming back?? I’ll go out on a limb and say if this deal or any other deal for a regular outfielder is made, they will announce that Alou will have to retire due to his latest injury.
THEO EPSTEIN has just stated that the Mets and Red Sox have NOT made a deal, let alone spoken.
Source: Baseball Channel and DanMetroMan@bigblueinteractive.com
Haha. I love the internet. Just as fast as false rumors spread like wildfire, they get doused rather quickly.
I am happy that the Mets and Sox didn’t evne talk about it… Because if that was offered to the Mets and they turned it down, they’d be nuts.
I like Pagan, but lest we not forget the Huge Spring Jon Nunnally had a few years back.
I don’t know where people are getting that Crisp is a .300 hitter, he did that on season (and .297 in 2006) which inflated his stats. He hits in the .260 range three other seasons. Should we put a lot of stock in Pagan because of his ST stats? Probably not, but I would much rather have a young player that has minor league options, who is quoted as saying how thrilled he is to be back “Home” with the Mets versus a guy who is whining about his playing time in Boston. If they had any regard for Coco he would have started in the W.S. over a rookie. So what happens when Alou comes back? All this talk of moving Beltran out of Center is ludicrous at best, he’s a gold glover! Are the guys knees brittle, yeah, but why trade a young player for a 5 million per year bench player? What’s next, Crisp becomes a Met and then claims he is disrespected by being put in a Corner Outfiled position instead of center? I just think its an unnecessary risk with little upside, if any at all. Just my opinion, but I say if you’re going to roll the dice, so it with the homegrown talent that’s happy to be here, not the whiner that’s wasn’t allowed a SINGLE start in the world series over a rookie.
Has Crisp’s stock gone down that much and Pagan’s gone up that much? Sounds fishy to me, if it is a straight up trade, but what do I know.
Sorry about the long post and poor spelling, I’m at work and had to type quickly!
Coco’s stock hasn’t gone down, the red sox have ellsburry
Random question guys. I’ve used mlb.tv the past few years. I have the lesser quality video subscription and it’s looking pretty poor. Also anytime I do anything else on the internet while the stream is running it freaks out and starts skipping. Does anyone know if the more expensive subscription is actually worth it, like the video quality is noticeably better? Maybe it is the new video software they asked to upgrade to, Silveright, that is making the streaming worse?
R u running the player on a mac or PC? The difference between the 400’s and 700’s is more so sharpness than it is anything else, both streams should flow fine, it’s probably just buffering.
Pagan is not a young player, he will be 27 in June. That is very old for a player with only 22 Major league starts.
Man rumors blow up real quick
he maybe 27, but he has options, and options are the key, he can go back to new orleans and play everyday stay sharp and then be recalled if someone goes down for an extended period
Pagan is a developing player. He improved from 2006 to 2007. .745 OPS isn’t ideal for a corner OF, but he should improve. Coco has had a .712 OPS the past two years. Who ever said that Pagan is a cheaper version of Coco is close to the truth. I think that Pagan may have a slightly higher ceiling at this point.
Pagan’s ceiling is absolutely not higher than Crisp’s.
Crisp had a season in which he posted an .810 OPS with a .300 average and 62 extra base hits. Granted that’s his best season to date but that can be considered his ceiling…
Pagan’s ceiling doesn’t come close to that with a .711 career minor league OPS, no trace of power potential or plate discipline…
Hey, I hope that Pagan breaks out just like any other Mets fan… But it’s just not gonna happen. If it does I will definitely come back here and admit I’m wrong.
I like Pagan as a bench player and occasional fill-in starter… But he’s just not the type of player that you can start at a corner outfield spot for a long period of time and expect much of anything.
I will say this: If Pagan can somehow improve his plate discipline and start hitting more doubles and homers, he could be a solid player. But until then he’s not.
We really don’t know what Pagan’s ceiling is until he’s had more time to play on the major league level.
He’s 2+ years younger than Crisp so he’s got more room to develop as a player. And his OPS the last year was better than Crisp’s the last 2 years.
An argument can be made for either player. I don’t think it’s a slam dunk either way.
Some of us just prefer to go with the younger, cheaper, homegrown player.
A 200+ post Metsblog thread on a Crisp-Pagan trade topic.
Congrats Angel Pagan….you have arrived!!!
Are you serious? You want to avoid a move that improves the team because Pagan is excited about making the team?
He’d be excited about making ANY team!!!!!
Hahahaha so true