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Angel Pagan hit a two-run home run yesterday. He is batting .419 with 10 RBI in 15 games this spring.
Willie Randolph, on Pagan’s early, spring-training success, while speaking to reporters after yesterday’s game:
“I’ve seen this happen a lot in spring training. The guys in a good rhythm, in a good groove, and determined to make the team. I’ve seen that before, where guys go crazy in spring training. Like I said, he’s in great shape, he’s matured a lot since the last time I saw him and he’s having a real good spring so far. Still got a ways to go, though, so keep it going…
“A lot of kids have talent. But a lot of time they do things on the bases or in the outfield that are not always instinctive. It doesn’t make it bad, but to be on a winning team - and to be a winner - you have to do a lot of things instinctively…You know, the first time I saw him he didn’t make good choices on the base paths, now he’s looking better at that. That’s what I mean by maturing. He had some really weird routes in the outfield, it seems to me that he’s learning how to get a better jump and take better routes. I remember when I first saw him he was very raw…But hopefully with a couple years under his belt he’s learned some things, and it’s good to have him. And, again, we’ll see how this all plays out. I told the guys when spring training started, you’re not necessarily going to make this team just on batting average and stats. I mean, we’re trying to put together a team that’s gonna help us win games. So, it’s nice to go out and impress, but, when you get down to the end of the day, you have to do certain things to help us win a game.”
In a report for 
, despite having a personal stake in Pagan’s success, Ted Berg wonders why we are all getting so excited about Pagan, reminding of us of past, out-of-nowhere spring success stories, such as Butch Huskey.
Lastly, speaking of outfielders, in a column for Newsday, Anthony Rieber reminds us of Endy Chavez.
sounds to me, based on Willie’s comments, that Pagan will not make the opening day roster.
I agree from the comments and can not fathom why. I do not believe he is a future starter for us for long stretches but what am I missing here. Willie seems hell bent on letting the kid know through messages like the above quote, that he is not assured anything. Maybe he sees the bench as something like Easly, Anderson, Castro, Chavez and Gotay and nothing more. ALou being on the DL might only mean that Pagan catches a break and gets on the squad at the beginning of the year. Or maybe to start the year he feels he can go with the above 5 but must carry Michel Abreu to be the 6th man off the bench and spell Delgado. I am not sure.
Regardless…Pagan deserves to see the big club based on this spring training to date. With about 2 weeks left before the season starts…it should be clear that Pagan has earned it. What else can the kid do?
I honestly have no idea what team is going north but if Castillo and Beltran don’t hurry up and start playing and if Delgado does not stop striking out…we have issues
I agree. Delgado could not look more clueless at the plate, yet he’s assured a starting spot at 1st because of his salary. Pagan has earned himself a spot.
Delgado is really the big enigma. I think as he goes this year so goes the METS. Pitching will be terrific and relief pitching should be strong. But the offense is based in large part on him and Alou being productive. Without those two big RBI bats…we are going to struggle to score. Puts more pressure on Wright and Beltran and Castillo and Reyes to be on their games. I expect little to nothing from Church and Schneider offensively unfortunately.
I see the offense being worse than the Braves and Phills and on par with the Nats and maybe a tick better than the Nationals. That worries me.
First of all, Delgado has earned that spot by being a 2 time all star with 431 HR’s. Angel Pagan has 318 career at bats and has not earned anything. This is SPRING TRAINING. There is no room for him on this roster, we have 5 bench spots and they are all taken. The only reason he may start the season in the majors is because Alou is hurt.
You can’t seriously be advocating not giving Delgado a spot in the starting lineup. Pagan in 2 full seasons will not even approach the numbers that Delgado put up in his off year.
I am not suggesting bench Delgado and give his roster spot to Pagan. What I am saying is that Pagan appears to me to have at least earned a spot on this team. He likely will get it due to the Alou and Duque injuries. I see both starting the year on the DL and providing at least temporarily 2 more spots for the bench.
But beyond the reality that Delgado will play and is a starter…I am terribly concerned for his performance. I could not care less about his time in Tor and in FL. With us he has had one pretty good year and one pretty avg year (sub avg for his position and for his track record). Add in that he has been hurt this spring and is completely unable to hit an inside FB right now and yes I have concerns. Nothing we can do about it this year but I think his performance will be the difference between making the playoffs and not.
I ultimately believe that Willie is holding that 6th roster spot for Jose Valentin or Anderson Hernandez, because as constitued the only back up SS is Gotay or Easley, not really a viable option. Were as Easley, Anderson, Chavez can all spell the outfielders
I really feel that Delgado is done. It’s sad, but the guy has lost it. It’s okay, it happens, guys age. This team needs to recognize that.
It’s because Willie is loyal to the veteran players. Not necessarily a bad thing at times, as Shawn Green played well early on despite being garbage in spring training. What Willie sometimes forgets, though, is that he was a minor leaguer once, too. Someone had to give him his shot to sink or swim. This is that time for Pagan.
Why hate on Pagan? What’s wrong with a nice little feel good story for Spring Training. With all the negative stuff going on with injuries, plus the collapse from last year, it’s nice to see a kid like Pagan come back to the Mets, tear up Spring Training and possibly make the team. Lets keep it real, I don’t think any Mets fan is making Pagan out to be the second coming of Willie Mays, maybe Willie Mays Hayes.
If only Pagan was from th Dominican Rep., He’d
be a shure thing to start on opening day.
wow .. what bs, I thought with this one the race card couldn’t be thrown, but here it is..
Y’all stop with the race stuff already. It doesn’t belong here. May I remind you all Omar brought on Wagner, Schneider, Church, and Lo Duca. Will the neanderthals please stop it already! Keep your 17th century ideology to yourself.
Sounds to me like Willie’s saying he hasn’t made the squad yet.
But if you read everything he said - like how he likes how Pagan’s improved on the basepaths and in the outfield - he’ll make the team if he continues to do what he’s doing.
If he goes 0-20 for the rest of ST, then he shouldn’t make the team. If he keeps on tearing it up then absolutely he deserves to make the roster.
Endy is a lefty. The last thing we need is a 5-6-7-8 made up of all leftys
But Pagan can’t hit lefties either (.219 career), so having him bat right-handed doesn’t solve the problem.
Somewhere Lastings Milledge is having himself a good little chuckle over all this…
… and then his team goes on to lose 90 games.
What exactly is Lastings chuckling about? The Nationals’ pitching staff?
or the fact that he’ll hit .250 this year? maybe he should put up a halfway decent season before chuckling about anything…
He will put up a more then decent season this year… and here mets fans are drooling over angel pagan whose doing his best work against AAA guys in Spring Training….
It’s just funny that we can’t find that right handed hitting bat we need in the OF.. Hmm.. where could one of those gone…
he’s chuckling about that blastings thrilledge guy and how much he loves him.
Might as well give him a chance, since they don’t need to leave camp with five starters anyway.
I still have to wonder why the stats and batting average in this spring training don’t count but Carlos Delgarbage will make this team based on stats from 3 years ago.
Ahhhhhhh….vintage Willie.
salary????
why do stat not matter? 2 words:
BUTCH
HUSKEY
Matt, that SNY link goes nowhere
I do not get the hate on Milledge. He did not ask to be traded and he is not badmouthing the METS since he is in DC. He said only that he feels like he has a realistic chance to be himself this year as a NAt. A true statement. He said he feels more comfortable there because they treat rooks equally…also true since they are a team with few established vets and their best players are all young.
Milledge should not be on our minds except to say that we could sure use him right now couldn’t we. He would certainly help to make us feel more prepared right now in the outfield.
ok….
so lets look at that…
then we have milledge playing lf or rf…
we have…some other catcher? i guess Estrada…
So at whichever corner outfield spot milledge doesn’t play…who do we have? OH the same situation!! We still have our bench to choose from!!!
About the only thing that is better is we have a righty hitter instead of the lefty in Church…
Apparently Mrose and I are the same person. Weird…
haha
well, i’d rather be the same person as you than MANY others on this site
plus wherever Milledge is playing, you have routine flyballs dropping in for doubles…
THANK YOU!!!!! finally someone who realizes that even if we have milledge we would still be in the same predicament
Again, if they had Milledge, they would still have the gaping hole in LF since they wouldn’t have CHurch.
The only real difference would be a better L/R balance without Alou (depending, of course, on whoe replaces him!). And a different catcher.
I get your points, Stick and MRose. But I am really talking about the potential production and the lefty righty balance to the lineup thing. I apologize for not being more specific. I think Milledge in RF Beltran in CF and then possibly Pagan or Chavez in LF when Alou is out is reasonable and should be expected to produce more than Church Beltran and the same options in left. Plus with a potential end to our order right now of Delgado, Church, Chavez/Pagan, Schneider…that is 4 lefties in a row before the pitcher which can be tough to produce hits.
I think Milledge or another RH outfielder (Alou) would have been helpful. That was my thought. That and I think that Milledge will likely slightly outproduce Church
But Church will catch everything in the outfield. Milledge would have taken crazy routes which would have resulted in some balls being dropped, and he also would have forgotten how many outs there were and made similar kinds of mental mistakes that someone more established like Church won’t make.
Likely true for a little while longer. Remember he was a CF converting to RF which is an adjustment in terms of how to take routes on balls etc. Milledge likley would have still had some mistakes but he would have improved with regular playing time. This is really water under the bridge though as that ship has sailed. Milledge is not here and Church is. Hopefully Church hits because his fielding should be excellent.
And there is also a very good chance Milledge turns out to be Jay Payton too, so we’ll have to wait and see (at that time scouts were saying Payton was a better hitter than Nomar Garciaparra). Like you said though, for 2008, Church should be the better player.
Sounds more like Darren Reed to me. Wasn’t/isn’t he the all time Mets ST HR king?
Sounds like no matter what, Pagan’s not Willie’s guy. Willie’s still not my guy. He sucks.
silly willie should have been canned after the collapse…we have a team to ‘win now’ and a ‘manager in training’….with a closed mind, too….
David Newhan looked like an awesome super-sub last spring too…..
Spring training doesn’t mean anything…but hopefully Pagan isn’t just a fluke…
These comments are stupid. In Willie’s mind, hitting doesn’t help the team win, only baserunning. Typical dis to the young “kid” (even though Pagan is what, 26?).
Willie’s ideal team would be nine Shawn Greens, all of them taking perfect routes in the outfield and running the basepaths impeccably. If Pagan can’t make the Mets then why even invite players to Spring Training?
I don’t think that’s what Willie was saying. I think he’s saying that simply being a hitter is not going to help the team. Intangible along with talent are what’s going to help this Mets team. Players have their roles to complement the stars on the team.
I agree, but hitting is the definition of helping the team. Therefore this ST Pagan does indeed seem like someone who could really help, and if he loses a spot to, say, Brady Clark or whoever, it will be just another example of Willie’s preference for older, “professional” players rather than raw but talented youth. I would not be surprised at all if it went down this way.
By no means am I a cynic, believe me. But last year David Wright, and Moises Alou were unbelievable in September, and we had a horrible collapse. In other words, there are other factors (intangibles) that win games including pitching and defense, which the Mets didn’t do down the stretch last year. So I agree with Willie on this.
Hitting in ST doesn’t help the team. It’s not particularly representative of what will happen in the regular season since the pitching’s not mid-season ML pitching.
However, the way you run the bases and the routes you take on flies are much more representative of how you are likely to play in April.
Since Willie complimented Pagan on improvements in those areas also, he’s not shutting the door on him. He’s just not buying into the hype yet, and nor should he.
pitching and defense aren’t intangibles. intangibles are something made up by sportswriters to explain why certain things happen in sports.
That’s NOT what Willie said, he said that he doesn’t care if you’re a hot hitter, but then botch plays in the field or make stupid mistakes on the basepaths…
Yes, hitting is important. But it doesn’t mean much if you get a hit, and then get picked off or make some other bonehead play.
Which, of course, happens every time Pagan gets a hit, thereby negating his contribution. We all know that “kids” like Pagan, like Milledge, like Reyes, need their success to be downplayed, and their failures to be magnified, often humiliatingly, or else they’ll get too cocky.
Hitting is more important than baserunning. Based on three seasons of managing, Willie Randolph apparently believes the opposite. Let’s put Marlon Andreson in left! He’s never been picked off!
I find it interesting that people are so down on Delgado. People, it’s the spring. As hot as Pagan is, and as cold as Delgado is, things can easily flip in the regular season. Can people just relax? Wait until the season starts and then complain.
In regards to Ted Berg’s column, I think it’s important to remember that Pagan is going to be a bench player, and we’re not expecting Pagan to be a good complement and late defensive replacement. No one is expecting him to be Beltran Jr. But he’s young and athletic and can really help the team.
The thing with Delgado is that that exact same thing was said last year “It’s early, he’ll snap out of it, blah blah blah”. And lo and behold, he had a horrible year. We had patience with Delgado and he didn’t wake up. Even though it’s only spring, him looking clueless at the plate is a genuine cause for concern because it’s just reiterating the fact that he is probably done - Roberto Alomar style done.
His horrible year was still better than half of the 1B in the league and is better than anything that was available this offseason.
Exactly my point! I’ve said this over and over, Delgado might not be the old Delgado but can still produce. Now, is he going to be great or good this year? Who knows, the point being that until we get a better sample during the season, we don’t know how good Delgado is going to be this year.
Yeah, we got no choice but to give Delgado a chance, and I am huge Delgado fan, but… The Alomar reference makes sense. He is really showing signs that he is done (which also worries me because I drafted him in my FL). As many pro reporters and scouts have pointed out, he has not been able to keep up with the fastball, and that is not something that one reclaims ones they’ve lost it. I really wish that he pulls out of it and even gives us a .260-30-90 line, but I am definitely worried about a .235-18-65 instead.
I had to read the quotes again. I thought he was actually giving pagan some props (in that odd Willie way), by saying he has improved.
Of course, he is downplaying his chances 9have to keep the guys hungry, right?) but overall it sounded positive.
Also nice to see a case where a young guy was actually able to work on his skills, and get better as he matured. Kind of flying in the face of the theory of some posters that a guy is a finished product at 22/23, and if they aren’t immediately an all start, they are “garbage”
Anyway, no chance they can go out with just the bench and maybe Abreu to start the season. Unless you want Endy everyday? They need someone that can pretty much serve as an everyday OF, and right now, pagan is the only one.
So putting my Carnak (sp?) hat on, either Pagan fills the spot until Alou comes back (and then we see what happens), or another OF is brought in from outside (no idea who).
Oh, and as a bonus prediction, Abreu will be a big piece of the team this year at some point. I am really worried about DelKayo.
Of course, the way hot/cold ST usually goes, he will do nothing all spring, then go 3-5 with 2 HRs and 5 RBIs in the opener.
Interesting on Abreu. I can not see how he is on the team unless they go six deep on the bench which seems unorthodox. I expect the typical 12 pitchers with 5 starters and 7 relievers. Which leaves the bench at 5 guys. Hard to see one of the spots going to Abreu.
What I can see is Abreu getting his chances when Delgado goes on the DL. I think Delgado will likely be hurt enough this year for us to see if Abreu can be part of the answer. too bad they can not teach him to go out and play RF. IF he could…with his hitting prowess displayed in Binghampton 2 yrs ago and his power….he could be just what the doc ordered. It would likely cost us Marlon Anderson or Easly but we could live with that.
Butch Huskey hit one of the longest home runs I have ever seen into the upper deck at the old Vet.
He must’ve thought it was spring training
philly pitching. Same thing
Why is everyone worried about Delgado? He was still productive last season in an off year. If he has that type of season again, with our better pitching we will be fine.
His power numbers weren’t awful (24 HR, 87RBI), but it’s hard to make the case he was productive. His numbers with RISP were atrocious, and it seemed like he struck out in every big situation. Those HR totals were helped by his once in a blue moon hot streaks when he would hit 4 home runs in a 3 game series and then go back into his slump again. If he duplicates last year, they will still probably make the playoffs, but it will be a fight. If he rebounds, they run away with it just like 2006 and Beltran becomes a better hitter because of the protection.
RISP is a terrible stat to use. it fluctuates waaaayyy too much from season to season, making it a very unreliable stat.
“It seemed like” those are great tools. Fact is almost the entire team struggled with RISP last season. Delgado put up good numbers, not great but usable.
Part of the problem is that a lot of us are spoiled by his resume and consistent MVP caliber years in Toronto.
I don’t think Willie is ruling out Pagan at all. He’s just not going to hand him the job at this point with 2 weeks remaining in spring training. He wants to keep him motivated so he keeps trying to improve. Giving Pagan the job right now might also discourage others like Brady Clark. And you have to keep those others motivated too in case more outfielders get injured before opening day. It’s a manager’s job to keep everyone motivated as much as possible. That’s why Willie doesn’t always say what he’s thinking.
Even if Pagan goes into a little slump the next two weeks, if he ends up with a ST BA of around .300, he should make the team and start in LF on opening day.
Hey, someone who gets it. You can’t pump up bubble players when the team is not formed yet. You just say things like “well he’s working hard and that’s what we want but he still has a long way to go”
I think people are reading way too much into these quotes. Willie the other day was saying how much he loved Pagan and his hustle. I think it’s pretty clear if the season started tomorrow, Pagan is going to be on this team, especially if Beltran is still sore, which he likely will be.
That doesn’t mean he’ll get the bulk of the playing time. I could see Pagan, Endy, Marlon and Easley all getting PT in LF.
My biggest questions right now are who is the 5th starter come April, and who are the 5th, 6th and 7th arms in the bullpen outside of Wagner/Heilman/Show/Feliciano
so if you combine the ignorance from this thread and add in the stuff from the el duque thread, you get “willie should be worried about el duque and should tell us all we should panic about the 5th starter, but he should trust pagan implicitly because he hit .400 in march, and delgado is done, there are tons of great first basemen all waiting in line to get on the Mets.”
Did I get that right?
You forgot the fact that he should have been fired because some fan said so and that if Pagan was from the Dom. Rebuplic he would be starting batting leadoff.
if pagan does this through april (in NY or NO), i’ll be impressed. spring training means close to zero.
he’ll get a chanch to play this year as the mets outfield tends to be injured every year. last year beltran, alou, green, milledge, gomez were on on the dl for extended periods of time.
Willie is just playing it safe. As many people have said he is just not buying into the hype. There are many people who start off hot during ST and they do a 360 once the season starts. I do not see the mets going out to get anybody before the season starts. I think pagan has the job locked up. Chavez will platoon with him to cover the time with alou on the DL. As far as Delgado…… I am only concerned due to the fact that delgados weakness to an inside fastball has come to light. Delgado is due to bat somewhere behind wright or beltran(5th most likely) and now that other pitchers know this it may make for a hole and rally killer for us. I do not doubt that delgado will put up some numbers, but i cant help but feel the bad speed that he lost is not coming back and will hit into the shift more often. Yea its ST but we better start getting creative with 1st base come next year. Abreu is not ML ready and is our only pure 1st base man i think in the farm that has the most experiance…. I always liked valentin and the way he plays but i cant see him coming back next year and if delgado doesnt return to form is doubtful to return next year also i think………..
We will worry about 1B next season later. There will be options at the deadline or after the season. Until then Delgado will hit 25 HR and have 80 RBI I will take that. There is no one in the organization that can come close to that at 1B.
Maybe Delgado will have realized after a winter of reflection that he can’t be a dead pull power hitter anymore. That means going the other way, and taking what the shift gives him.
And don’t count out Abreu being able to help out at the ML level.
Ted Berg’s mustache is impressive
These quotes remind me how much I still dislike Willie Randolph. His attitude and overall persona need a serious adjustment. Why come out a say these things.. It has nothing to do with motivation, it has to do with lessing the blow when he takes another aging veteran north. This guy is dead wood. We really made a mistake bringing him back. Why come out a deliberately knock a guy that is giving every ounce of himself to make the team. Hitting from both sides of the plate and playing a very solid outfield. This is turning into another “one of Willies guys” situation. Wow I’m all agitated and opening days is still 3 weeks away. If Pagan continues to play well there is no way in hell he is not to be given a chance in April. I’m sure Omar is already wishing he cut the chord when he had a chance.
Willie: You know, it’s not all about statistics for me. We’re trying to win games, here. I can’t be worrying about average, obp, rbi’s, homeruns, or any of those crazy, newfangled thing. For me, it’s about how dirty you make your uniform. I judge who makes the team based on how dirty their uniforms are. Got a dirty uniform? You’re on the team. Statistics schmatistics.