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Orlando Hernandez threw a four-inning, 80-pitch 
simulated game this morning at Tradition Field.
Following the ‘game,’ he told reporters he is scheduled to start in a real game on Sunday at home against the Cardinals.
For more on Hernandez’s day, during which he topped out at 81 mph, check out blogs from Lisa Kennelly at the Star-Ledger, John Delcos at the Journal News, and David Lennon at Newsday.
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If he doesn’t get much above 81, look for a lot of ephus pitches and really hard hit balls off of him.
I just can’t see him making more than 3-4 starts in a row this year without breaking down.
Can I ask a stupid question? I know there is no pitching available, but why do we even care about him anymore? Pelfrey is gonna be the 5th starter(through attrition). We all know this. There is NO WAY El Duque is a SP anymore. At least not in the tradional sense. If he is used as a spot starter/long relief, thats fine with me. Hes useful. But can we just accept that hes just a marginal part of the team at this point? I think this El Duque/Pelfrey thing isnt even a thing. SNY is always discussing the #5 spot as though there is some sort of competetion going on. There isnt. Pelf is the 5. Period. If Duque pitches 75-80 innings this year I’ll be suprized.
el duque certainly will be injured a bunch this year, but he’ll be starting when healthy. period. he was one of the mets best starters last year: 9-4 3.72era 17 of 24 starts were quality starts the best on percentage on the team.
pelfrey is his caddy this year. no doubt.
Dude…OK, I agree he gets a start when he’s healthy. 81 MPH?!?….OK OK…its a simulated start yadda yadda….81 MPH?!?….
Where is he more useful? As the #5 SP that may or may not be able to go every 5th day, thus leaving our #1 SP prospect in total limbo, possibly going up and down ALL year, and at the minimum giving him no consistancy to his routine….or using Duque just as an ‘arm’ in the BP that can be called on when needed, and when he can pitch. It just seems like round peg-square hole. Pelfrey WILL be a SP for us, whether now or in the near future. Its the perfect spot for him. The #5. No Pressure. Learn from some of the best SP’s in baseball. OR Having to constantly worry whether El Duque can pitch that day….Why?
discussing the merits of pelfrey being the 5th starter is a interesting. however, that discusion is irrevelant because the mets are going to start el duque. they’ve said it and el duque has said he’s not pitching out of the pen.
i’m all for giving pelfrey a chance and that will certainly happen this year when el duque goes on vacation
Duque is a veteran and a Willie favorite. He has earned his stripes with Willie with the Yankees and with the Mets. Pelfrey is a rookie. You know the drill. Duque is the #5 starter, period. When Duque goes on the DL, Pelfrey will fill in. When Duque comes back, Pelfrey gets booted back to New Orleans.
If it comes to the point where Duque just cant get anyone out he will retire with dignity, or he will be stubborn and force the Mets to release him.
But one is washed up and completely unreliable, and the other is young, hungry and finished strong last season…
Why are we placating El Duque? Is he some All-Timer(if not old timer)? What has he done to deserve a starting spot? OK, hes was decent last year. Aaaand? At what point do you say to him ‘Look, we cannot afford to rely of your health or ability to throw over 90 MPH. Either the BP or retire. You decide.’
I don’t disagree, I’m just saying that’s not how Willie and co will play it. Remember going to Brian Lawrence over and over last year instead of trying out Humber (until it was too late)? How about Kaz Ishii stinking it up again and again while Jae Seo was dominating AAA? I’m saying that they will give El Duque chance after chance after chance to lose that #5 spot. It will not be handed to Pelfrey. Duque is going to stink it up big time for a lot of starts in a row.
el duque was 9-4 last year
pelfrey was 3-8 last year
pelfrey gave up 10r (9er) in 10 inning for his last two starts in sept against the nationals.
what has pelfrey earned?
That was last year, and Pelfrey clearly finished the season stronger. Im just saying, 2 factors at play. Long Term benefits-Short Term benefits…
Long term-clearly Pelfrey. One way or another Duque is done after this year.
Short term-Still have Duque on the team to use whenever, plus Pelfrey gets to develop. THEN if he stinks it up you can use Duque as the #5.
you have to recognize the el duque princess factor
i don’t care about spring, but he’s hardly pitching well to earn a spot:
pelfrey spring 2008: 13ip 16hits 6bb 5.54era
Agreed. My 2 points would be that A. he was looking fine until it all came apart at once in that one ST game. B. We still dont know how much sticking his stupid tounge and telling his pitches out on his fastball(or whatever pitch it was) effected his effectiveness.
effected his effectiveness? I need a nap…
Pelfrey’s ERA in September of last year was 4.88. That is acceptable for a 5th starter, especially when you consider that ERA was inflated by just one game in which he gave up 6 ERs in 5.2 IPs.
If El Duque can pitch better than Pelfrey he should be the fifth starter. But if he pitches like crap, say a 5.00+ ERA, then I’d rather go with Pelfrey. The question is, will they pull the plug on El Duque if he’s stinking up the joint? That’s my only concern. That they hang on to him too long as a starter even if it’s clear he can’t get the job done.
i love the movement on pelfrey’s fastball. if he can work effective off-speed pitches he’ll be a good pitcher. i hope that he is excellent next year. just haven’t seen it yet. he was certainly rushed to the majors.
el duque will start is healthy.
I agree that El Duque will start if healthy and relatively effective in ST. But I think there will be some sane heads in the organization who will push for Pelfrey to replace El Duque if he stinks it up in real games.
I am in no way in love with Pelfrey. He seems like a ‘nice’ SP. I dont see any Cy Youngs. I still think he provides more than El Duque as a SP right now….
Random thought. If they both stink, or Duque cant get healthy, and Dirty is holding up his end of the bargain can anyone else seeing Heilman asking Willie ‘Give me one good reason I can’t start?’ I have no interest in Sosa starting. If Wise, Dirty, JSmith, Show, and Feliciano are getting the job done, I think I’m gonna have to start agreeing with him. He would be more useful in the rotation. Im only saying IF Pelf and Duque either cant stay healthy OR perform….
zero chance that heilman starts.
i’d much rather have him in the pen in the late innings than as a 5th starter.
I just meant more of him readdressing his desire to start. You KNOW he wants to, and if hes on a team with only 4 viable starters I’m just wondering if he will subtly remind them of his desire to start…
If El Duque gets his wish of only being a SP, and not having to come out of the pen, why does Heilman get told to shut his trap….I guess I just dont get the ‘mad props’ that were giving to El Duque in terms of his supposed guaranteed rotation spot/not having to come out of the pen, especially when hes throwing 81 MPH…
Don’t complain about velocity to Petey…
With El Duque’s pitch arsenal, you truthfully don’t NEED him throwing much in excess of 85 mph. Before I get laughed off, his breaking stuff is actually quite similar to 1950’s-1960’s reliever Stu Miller (Cardinals, Giants, Orioles primarily) where it was incredibly slow but had so much movement it didn’t matter. Miller was an incredible rarirty, though…he generally threw in the low-mid 60’s and had mind-blowing (if not radar gun-blowing) movement on his changeup and slow forkball. Also, while he never threw an eephus, Miller would occassionally fire off a “reverse change-up”…he’d dial his fastball up to 80 mph or so after the hitters started adjusting for his mind-bogglingly slow speeds. It was pretty straight, but it kept hitters off balance.
El Duque’s changeup has a TON of movement, to say nothing of the three different breaking pitches he throws. I’d think if he scrapped his fastball altogether (unless as with Miller he threw it as a “reverse change”) and kept changing arm angles, he may have a successful career like Miller.
LoL, before looking it up just now, I first thought that “ephus” pitch meant “F#$& us! that was a 75mph meatball down the middle”
81 mph? Who does he think he is, Jamie Moyer?
Let him get his act together in PSL, make Pelfrey #5. Not too many other options, are there?
Hah! He could be so lucky. That Rotoworld news thing on the left side Metsblog states “…with a fastball that pales in comparison to Jamie Moyer’s.”
He should just accept the long man role like Oliver had a couple years ago. A guy can get away with throwing junk for 2 or 3 innings. But, anymore than that and guys will tee off on him.
We don’t need a #5 until half of April anyway, so let Duque rest and Pelf pitch in AAA
81 mph??? I drive faster than that.
He’s really going to have to use deception, guile, and every one of his pitches to get out of the first inning.
I wonder what you mean by deception and guile? Could it mean that he unveils his new Bugs Bunny Screwball, or will it mean a smoke granade followed by an 81MPH fastball. Folks, I throw 81MPH……. WTF?!
Well, people can’t turn away from a car accident, so you can be sure I willo be watching the Cards game. Hey I have never seen a Bugs Bunny Screwball in real life, so that should be cool.
What I mean by that is changing speeds . . . Look how long Tom Glavine has lasted with a low-80s fastball and a change in the low 70s. Throw in his slurve and eephus pitch and you might have something.
“Mike Pelfrey threw 90 pitches and looked pretty good. Catcher Ramon Castro said he was impressed by Pelfrey’s ability to throw his slider and changeup behind in the count.”
I am for letting the spot go to Duque. He will remain behind while the big club goes north because we do not need him. As mentioned above…his spot is not required until the 3rd week of the season.
Now….if he fails when he does come up…and I believe he will continue to be successful (albeit injured and successful), then you have to consider the options.
I hope that Pelfrey is not one of them. Not because I do not like him because I do. I hope he is stashed in AAA and just getting better regardless of the result.
In terms of potential needed callups I would do the following upon injury to the rotation…
1) Move Sosa to the rotation with the first injury
2) If Sosa tanks or a second starter is required…move Tony Armas to the rotation.
3) Then Pelfrey if the above two fail or more starters are needed.
The goal should be Pelfs development this year not his contribution to the big club. We will need him next year to be part of the everyday rotation!
The Mets will start their best 5th starter–Pelfrey or El Duque. On a contending team you don’t stash Pelfrey in AAA if he gives the Mets the best chance to win. He’s 24, not 19. He’ll get plenty of starts this year, so it’s not as if he won’t get a chance to continue to develop.
The starting rotation depth looks more like this:
5. Mike Pelfrey
6. El Duque (pending health)
7. Nelson Figueroa
8. Jorge Sosa
9. Tony Armas
10. Heilman?
11. Niese?
Forgot about Figueroa. He could be a better version of Brian Lawrence type. ALong the lines of Sosa last year. I still see the value in placing Pelfrey much lower on the call up list. I think both he and the team are best served by him learning to pitch. He has to develop and I prefer that development down on the farm rather than in the midst of a potential pennant race for us.
But……If Duque is relatively healthy and pitching well and Pelfrey is lighting up AAA…I’d be in favor of trading Duque to some team mid season for a solid infield/1b prospect and going with Pelfrey. But alot has to go right for that to happen both with Pelfrey and Duque and the overall team record and potential big time lead in the division at around the time of the trading deadline.
at this point Figueroa could be a better version of Duque than Duque is himself…
Lawrence was a poor man’s Glavine (very poor). No stuff, relied completely on control. And his control and what little ability he had left him after getting injured.
As far as I know Figueroa has good stuff, was the ace of his winter league team, and has pitched well in spring–enough to earn the 7th or 8th spot.
Duque is practically untradeable. Look at his salary and his health. No way you get a good prospect for him.
It’s pointless to determine who should be the 5th starter now, it’s clearly undecided. Randolph will clearly make his decision based on performance, he’s not a fool.
With El Duque reinventing himself and Pelfrey unproven–but developing, there is no real track record to fall back on.
If it’s close, the tie of course goes to El Duque because everyone knows he can pitch–assuming his body and new delivery let him.
If El Duque can get the job done, fine, he should be the fifth starter. But if he can’t and stinks up the joint then I hope they pull the plug early on him and go with Pelfrey.
I think Pelfrey can improve on his 2007 season and will be better served learning to refine his pitches up at the major league level. His ERA last September was 4.88 and I think he can continue to pitch like that this year. That is acceptable for a 5th starter.
As for his ST numbers, the sample size is too small to think that he’s regressed from last year.
As he works his way into real game situations, we should see that velocity rise.
People have been so down on El Duque all winter but I really don’t understand it. He’s made 53 starts in the past two seasons — not exactly Mike Hampton or Carl Pavano territory. He’s consistently been one of our most effective starters during that time.
We’re not expecting him to lead our staff into the playoffs anymore; if he can give us 20 or so starts of baffling hitters with a thousand breaking balls (and there’s no reason he shouldn’t be able to do that) he’s valuable to us.
Agreed
if he can give us 20 or so starts of baffling hitters with a thousand breaking balls (and there’s no reason he shouldn’t be able to do that)
How about more injury issues than ever and a totally new windup?
I don’t understand all this hubub about his “new delivery”. Correct me if I am wrong but didnr he only use his high leg kick when the based were empty? Of someone was on bad he would pitch from the stretch which is essentially what his new delivery is.
I think he will be fine with. Health is separate issue.
I’m not sure what he does when there are men on base, but since every single report said the Mets were teaching him a “new” delivery and even had quotes from Peterson regarding this new delivery it doesn’t make sense that it would simply be the same one he’s been using all his life when men are on base.
So it would appear to be a brand new windup.
I think its best we all await the results of his SECOND spring start to decide if he can get hitters out. But somehow I dont think we’re that patient.
I really think all Mets fans need to get a look at El Duque, Delgado, Pagan, Pelfrey, Duaner, et al in real game situations before we make any bold declarations. Even with his problems this spring, Duque has earned the right to break camp as the 5th starter if he’s healthy enough to throw a pitch. The guy has way too much pride to go out there every day and get lit up like a Christmas tree so my guess is if he goes out there and pitches to the tune of a 4.50 ERA, he’s going to stay the 5th starter until he gets injured again. At that point, you hope Pelfrey has developed his slider enough and gets the rocks out of his head to know that his fastball needs to be on the right side of 94-95 mph for him to be effective.
A lot of pitchers have thrown up acceptable numbers with way less stuff than Duque and fastball which tops out around 88 mph. Tom Glavine, for example.
Duque can be good enough for a #5 without getting much past 85, since his change will be 20mph slower and the ephus another 10 off that. Keeping hitters off-balance is more about changing speeds than straight-out gas.
Yeah, and let’s not forget that this was his first spring action. I would think the velocity will improve each time out there. You would think going to a more compact delivery might take some of the deception away, but I’m sure Duque will still be a master of changing speeds.
With 81MPH, Carlos might as well play in Citifield
he tosses a sim game and throws 81 and you guys are giving up on the man already. THATS SAD! can yall wait untill hes in a somewhat real game before you rush to judge him.i dont like all the injuries too but he was one of our best pitchers last year dont forget that. mike isnt ready yet.
Mike has to be ready at some point. He’s already had 2 wishy washy seasons.
Tell me: how many seasons did it take Koufax and Glavine? Look up their records. Two “seasons” ( wouldn’t refer to a bunch of starts as a season) does not necessarily make or break a good or even a great ML pitcher. Pelfrey may end up as a great one, a good one, or a not-so-good one, but you have to be more patient.
maybe we can get brian bannister for burgos. what do you think?
81 is slow, but c’mon, its a simulated game, Duque won’t push it until it matters, if he’s healthy enough to pitch, you have him as your #5 until he falls on his face, its that simple. Granted that could be pretty quick or he might not be healthy. Also, I hear all this talk about Pelfrey’s breaking stuff, his off speed stuff needs to be good enough for him to make it. Last I checked, when he’s not pitching well, it has absolutely nothing to do with his off speed stuff and everything to do with his total inability to locate his fastball. When he’s pitching well, his fastball is on. His offspeed stuff will determine if he can become a #3 or #2 starter, sure, but whether or not he can be a #4/#5 depends entirely on his fastball.
no more leg kick…. no more life on his pitches ….. low 80’s fastball.. always hurt as usual .. yes yes, when healthy hes great .. and i do love him .. but when we needed him the most in the 06 playoffs he was hurt …. duque will not start the season .. pelf will start .. and when / if pelf is pitching “well”, do we just bump him back to AAA ?
the time to cut ties with Duque is coming closer and closer..
yea bannister for burgos really does hurt right now …..
81 huh……..with a couple of weeks to work out I think I can hit that……how much is he making this year ???? SIGN ME UP !!
Anyone notice that cutter dykstra is one of the top high school prospects in the draft? hes lennys son! nails jr!
IM hoping the mets draft a young pitcher named tim melville 1st if hes available at the 18th pick.
again, another old player we should of never resigned. That’s something this team loves to do. JeriMetrics
Elduque will be Elduque. He will be ready and pitch well. Then he will get a random injury. At that point Pelfrey has to prove his worth. I am much more worried about Pelfrey than Elduque.
I don’t know why we’re putting up with this nonsense. He’s an old fort and isn’y worth discussing. It’s not like he’s done anything valuable to us in the past. Who’s he to say he doesn’t want to pitch in the pen!?! Bring in the youth!!!
Maybe El Duque can just sit out the first few months, let Pelfrey develop, and then be an effective 7th inning reliever down the stretch and for the playoffs.
these games are being won in the 7th and 8th innings so I would like to see his experience in that role, and save his arm. wasnt he a great reliever in chicago a few years ago?
LETS GO METS!!!
p.s. i have my fantasy draft tomorrow. please get the first pick so i can get Reyes…..if not, hello Mr. Wright!