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In a post to his blog for ESPN.com, Jayson Stark writes:
“The Mets love Marcus Thames, but
they’re not going to trade Aaron Heilman for him.”
According to Stark, while the Mets prefer Thames or Xavier Nady, “They continue to kick the tires on a group that includes Reed Johnson, Ryan Freel and Juan Rivera.”
However, in this morning’s Daily News, citing team officials, Adam Rubin writes that the Mets are unwilling to trade a young pitching prospect, such as Jon Niese, for a player like Rivera, “thwarting any potential deal with the Angels.”
…thanks to Peter Wade for the link to stark’s blog…
Wonder how long it took the Mets brass to stop lughing before they could spit out the “no?”
They need their precious few decent pitching prospects more than a spare body that isn’t even very good.
Just make do with what they got, or find someone stuck in the minors that give sive them some part-time production.
Agree that we don’t need to trade one of our very few pitching prospects for a bat like Nady or Thames.
But, I wonder how much Nady is worth? Not in terms of prospects.
Look at this scenario.
Matt Morris and Xavier Nady (Who combine for 14M this year, which includes Morris’ 1M buyout) for Sosa, Schoenweiss, and a lesser package of prospects.
Morris could become our fifth starter, allowing Pelfrey to start the year in AAA, El Duque could begin on the DL (eventually taking over for Sosa in the long role), and we could get a better look at Wise, Smith, and Register in the pen.
It makes sense for the Pirates as they lose approximately 9M in payroll this year, and Nady’s contract (figures to get $5M in arbitration)…
The question for the Mets is… Do you want to pay $14M for Xavier Nady and Matt Morris? Or go with what we got? It’s not my money, but with our age and injury issues, and how close I think the Mets are this year, I think it might be worth it. Morris and Nady could sure up the Mets bench, rotation, and pen.
Of course, I’m just speculating… but I’d rather dish out bucks than Heilman or prospects
well id rather give away heilman for just about nyone cause i think hes garbage but i wudnt give him away for matt morris. he was terrible with pittsburgh this yr and i dont think hell do any better with the mets
that would be an awful deal..obviously the mets wont pull the trigger…imagine trading our 8th inning set up guy, for a bench player?? Not like Heilman is a lights out reliever, but with our somewhat shaky bullpen, minus heilman, uh..
Out of all the guys mentioned, I would love to have Nady back..but we would have to give up a lot to get him,,I don’t think it’s worth it…hopefully Alou will be back in the beginning of May, and we can go with chavez/pagan until then
yaa(laugh laugh) so alou could come bac and then get injured in a week
Sign Bonds.
Yeah, because Alou might get lonely sitting on the DL…
Sign Bonds and Jeff Weaver. Give Bonds an incentive-laden contract, say $1.5 million for every 100 plate appearances. We’ll have him while Alou is hurt, and if he gets indicted, we don’t have to worry about paying him a ton of money. As for Weaver, at least he’s healthy and good for 200 innings. According to MLB 2K8, he likes Willie’s managing style, and would be a good fit!
it’s funny you say that bc according to 2k8 bonds doesn’t like willie randolph’s managing style, but for 2 yrs and around 8 mil per year he didn’t mind.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha
i agree with kirk. sign em. it doesn’t cost anything except money let’s not go nuts and trade everyone. i think if bonds gets hot early less pressure will be on delgado, although its another lefty, why not just give the dude a job.
he wont sign with the mets. i think hes done. and he got abused so much last yr lol
In case you missed it:
On Dec 7, 2007, Barry Bonds was charged with lying under oath about using steroids.
On Jan 23, 2008, Bonds filed a motion to dismiss the indictment,
On Feb 14, 2008, prosecutors indicated they would present evidence at trial that Bonds tested positive for steroids in 2000.
He could spend up to 2.5 years in prison if convicted.
Do you still want to hire this guy to play for the Mets in 2008?
Surely in the unlikely event he his incarcerated it most like will occur after Alou returns and solve the problem of what to do with Bonds a moot point. :)
I don’t want to have to root for this bastard, and any victories would be less enjoyable to me if he were part of the team.
I agree, now that the steroid era is over I don’t think anybody wants to look back and signing Bonds will just add stress to the team.
a judge just threw out those charges as per the nypost, so they were looking at “other ways” to charge bonds.
No thanks.
Not for the price that is being discussed here, but I wouldn’t mind having Freel on the team. He’s pretty versatile, and another guy with great legs is not ever going to hurt you.
Pretty and great legs? Sign him up!!!
sorry.. i had to
No homo!
Very nice…
You know, I can’t stand Jayson Stark. All he does is laud praise on the Phillies and how they have the best lineup and blah blah blah. I can’t wait for the Mets to shut his stupid mouth. Of course, when they do, he’ll probably say he knew it all along.
with your screen name you should talk to cw above, he’s always on the lookout for another guy with great legs.
Oh, now that’s just great…
After reading this on Freel in a Wikipedia entry on him I think I’ve soured on him:
“Freel gained some notoriety in August of 2006 when The Dayton Daily News reported that Freel talks to an imaginary voice in his head named Farney.[1] Said Freel: “He’s a little guy who lives in my head who talks to me and I talk to him. That little midget in my head said, ‘That was a great catch, Ryan,’ I said, ‘Hey, Farney, I don’t know if that was you who really caught that ball, but that was pretty good if it was.’ Everybody thinks I talk to myself, so I tell ‘em I’m talking to Farney.”[2] Freel later said that Farney’s name arose from a conversation with Reds trainer Mark Mann: “He actually made a comment like, ‘How are the voices in your head?’ We’d play around and finally this year he said, ‘What’s the guy’s name?’ I said, ‘Let’s call him Farney.’ So now everybody’s like, ‘Run, Farney, run’ or ‘Let Farney hit today. You’re not hitting very well.’”"
Oh man . . . we GOTTA have this guy now!
I’ve got those in spades.
But the SN is from Arrested Development and has nothing to do with my sexual orientation. Sorry to disappoint.
If Thames does become a Met he is gonna need a new #…if anyone cares
Think Ewing will complain? : )
What would it take to get Freel? That guy is like Eric Byrnes part II. I’d love to have him on the team – INSTANT FAN FAVORITE!!
I agree CW, from what i’ve seen of Freel he’s a tough little guy-plays the game hard, I wouldn’t mind him if we could get him on the cheap. He’s gotta little Lenny Dykstra in him.
What are the Tigers smoking though, our 8th inning guy for a career .241 hitter, please. I’m assuming also that the Mets like Thames over Nady b/c his price will be cheaper ultimately b/c the numbers don’t bear it out and he’s 2 yrs older.
The Tigers need some bullpen arms with Rodney and Zumaya out, but the Mets shouldn’t give them one of their best. If they wanted Smith, I’d consider it. I’d also consider Sosa, but I have a feeling the Mets will need him with the uncertainty of El Duque and Pelfrey in the rotation.
I bet this is something we see shake out in late April or early May, once pictures become a bit clearer for different teams. We’ll know what’s going on better with Alou, shaky bullpens around the league will expose themselves. A lot of teams are going to be looking for relievers, and that is one thing the Mets might have a bit of a surplus of.
I could see Sosa getting off to another hot start and then being used to fleece someone. Maybe if El Duque isn’t ready and Pelfrey isn’t impressive, he should be the fifth starter in April. If he goes 3-1 with a 3.50 ERA in his first few starts, I could see a team in need of a starter jumping all over that.
The Pirates, Tigers, and Angels all seem like clubs that could have such a need. The Tigers and Angels would also love to have a future closer like Eddie Kunz to groom. If it May 1st comes around and he’s looking rested and strong and Sosa gets off to another hot start, I think those two for Juan Rivera could be a great deal for both the Mets and Angels. The Halos, who have the excess of outfielders, get a temporary SP solution who might ride a little hot streak for a bit to hold down the fort until Lackey and Escobar are ready and who’s also versatile enough for the ‘pen, and they get a longterm solution who could potentially slip right in and take over for K-Rod. If you can lock up Rivera quickly and affordably, even better.
maybe a minor league deal for Morales instead…
Having someone to replace Delgado might be more important than another OF.
Good analysis meddler, Maybe I’m a typical impatient NY fan but I don’t want to wait until late April/early May (BTW isn’t that when Alou is supposed to be coming back-just kidding we know we won’t see him until June). Our offense is going to struggle and there’s nothing more frustrating then getting good quality starts and having your O’ do nothing.
Look we need a corner OF, R/H, who can also play some 1B, the Tigers have a spare part in Thames. It’s not like i’m in love with the guy, but he does have good power, he balances our line-up and he has a role if/when Alou comes back as a platoon w/ Church or CAddying Delgado who I expect to be bruttle this yr. So I don’t see why Omar can find a way to pull the trigger before March 31.
rh corner of = endy chavez… I know he’s a lefty, but career .290 hitter vs. lefties.
Heilman for Thames? NEVER! By the way…just got my sporting news magazine and there predictions have the Phillies winning the east again with us #2. There argument is that while we got Santana which will really help the staff, we still have our old injury plagued players will be our downfall. Claim we have no depth meaning no good replacements for Delgado, Alou, Pedro martinez, El duque, etc. We need to find some depth somewhere. Trades, free agents, wherever. But Omar needs to find a way soon.
its a fair assessment. its hard to argue those points.
If, and it’s a big if, our ST pitching is a real taste of what the Mets do to other teams for the next six months, then we will be able to win lots of close one-run games even with so many walking wounded. Not an ideal situation by any means, but what it should mean in the short terms is that management engages in no panicky trades.
I have a sense that our BP may be the complete antithesis of last year, which means we will win games by endurance.
They can simply wait to see the inevitible supply of decent to good players who get cut by another team at the end of ST and pick someone from that batch.
Or, if they really feel they need a righty with some pop in his bat, they can sign a guy like Sammy Sosa.
I mean, other than the versatility at 1st base and the OF, do guys like Thames offer the 2008 team that much more than a guy like Sosa in the OF and on the bench? Certainly not enough to trade Heilman or Sosa. A move like signing Sosa (if they felt they really had to get someone) would also allow guys like Easley and Anderson to be used almost exclusively at 1st base (when Delgado is hurt) and off the bench.
It definitely makes zero sense to trade any valuable pen arm for a guy you expect to play only about 70 games anyway.
anyone that watched tonight’s game notice delgado’s bright orange shirt that said “enough”?
i wonder if today being the 5 yr anniversary of Iraq war had anything to do with him choosing to wear that shirt while the rest of the team was in uniform…
He’s been vocal in the past about being anti-war so just wondering if that’s y he wore the orange
(protesters supporting impeachment of bush/cheney and anti-war wear orange)
am i reading too much into his choice of t-shirt?
you mean Pedro Cerrano?
the mets wear orange too.
really? I wasn’t aware of that….
the players made that shirt at some point last year–i think during the Giants series when they shaved their heads
I think it was intended for Metsblog haters who bash him mercilessly, and want Mike Jacobs back.
lol i was thinking the same thing
Or maybe it was a reference to all the injuries??? There was also a bozo the clown on it.
Nady.
Not happening. Simple as that. If the Tigers want Heilman for Thames, what do you suppose that the Pirates are going to want for Nady? More than the Mets will want to part with, I’m sure.
i like thames but def not for heilman…sosa for thames is prob fair i’d throw in another minor leaguer i suppose as well…but i think its evident that the tigers need a setup man more than we need a reserve of/1b.
Mets “love” Marcus Thames. . . Why?
He’d be okay, but as everyone has said, not for Heilman that is fooshure.
Thames, Johnson, and Freel are all nice players, but Heilman can’t go anywhere. He’s necessary if we’re gonna challenge for a WS.
That seems to be the consensus, so I’m not too worried that Heilman will get traded.
Are you guys forgetting that Omar NEVER tips off a trade. As soon as you hear the Mets are interested in somebody, you can consider that misinformation.
And don’t even bring up Santana, cause nobody was sure about that ever happening. (except for the Mighty Cerrone)
As a big Tigers fan, I could actually see why 1) the Mets like Marcus Thames and 2) why the Tigers are so unreasonable about their relief pitching demands.
Thames basically lost his chance to start when Jacque Jones came over. It was gonna be his big chance. In a way, he’s actually sort of a mirror image of Ryan Church (so far a career fourth outfielder, slick fielder, can only hit opposite handedness but does it really well, speed, plate patience vs. opposite handedness), but with more power. Having actually seen Thames, I can tell you he is quite a clutch hitter. For those of you that are *so* into sabermetrics that they don’t believe clutch stats exist, allow me to point out a HUGE disparity: .267/.351/.546 with an OPS of .897 and a BABIP of .309 with RISP (279 PA), AND .227/.287/.457 with an OPS of .744 and a pitiful BABIP of .245 with no one on (613 PA…I know, larger sample size, but not enough of a disparity to totally discount the former). It’s like the guy just locks in whenever someone is on base.
Having said that, no, of course he’s not worth Aaron Heilman, who is one of the most underrated set-up men in baseball (and would likely displace Todd Jones as Tigers closer). However, the Tigers are pretty desperate for a reliever. This could be merely an initial offer as opposed to a final one. Dave Dombrowski is no fool, I’m sure he knows he’s not dealing with Phillips/Duquette, and I’m sure he’d settle for Jorge Sosa (whom Jim Leyland likes from that terrific start he turned in vs. Detroit last year when he threw 8 shutout innings) in a pinch. My guess is he’s merely trying to milk the Mets bullpen for all they’re worth until he basically has to take Sosa (I DOUBT the Tigers are interested in Joe Smith…righty specialist sidearmers have never been on Dave Dombrowski’s favorites list).
I wouldn’t give up either Sosa or Heilman. Heilman has been one of the better middle relievers in baseball over the last 2-3 years and Sosa is extremely versatile and capable of turning in either a very good start or relief appearance. With the Mets’ uncertainty about the fifth spot in their rotation, Sosa provides a good safety net.
I don’t doubt Thames’ value as you describe it, it’s just that I’d prefer to live with with a suspect offense in order to preserve our pitching depth. There may be other ways the Mes could beef up their righthanded offense without depleting their pitching.
A.) Heilman is a whiny bitch B.) He sucks something awful
That said, Thames is worse. Not worth it.
HAY GUYS, YOU KNOW THAT RELIEF PITCHER WHO HAS AVERAGED A 130 ERA+ OVER THE PAST THREE SEASONS? YEAH. HE SUCKZ. LAWL.
I don’t understand fans like you who don’t appreciate Heilman. Last year some of you wanted to give Heilman away for a bag of balls. Yet he’s been one of the most solid relievers in the Mets’ bullpen over the last 2-3 years.
I’d hate to see the bullpen without him in it. Perhaps you’d prefer someone like Farnsworth who ignites more fires than he puts out?
And when has Heilman ever whined? He’s always been one of the quietest Mets. Whiny bitch = Lo Duca. Not someone who’s one of the most reserved players in the clubhouse.
Knowing what we all know about Alou and knowing Millz was gone long ago, why are we in a panic to find an outfielder one week before opening day?
Some days Omar amazes me in a positive way. Others I just shake my head….
And First base?
Can we retire Koos and Mex on opening day ‘09?
Thank you and have a nice day.
Good point. Why are they scrambling for help now when it was almost a given that Alou would spend copious time on the DL this year? Unless Omar is just kicking the tires with other teams right now like any good GM should. He always says he’s continually trying to improve the club so this may be just part of that.
All the talk has been about Freel (He also has DWI charges aside from hearing voices) and Thames, but Reed Jihnson would be a better fit IMO. He’s more of a Dykstra type (Minus the roids, hopefully) player than Freel. In the Jays /Sox game yesterday he made a great catch running back to the wall showing good speed and defense. He’s been a leadoff hitter for the Jays in the past, and while he might lack the power numbers of an Alou, he’d be a nice fit as far as someone who could get on base, and play good OF defense….
My top picks in order
Kendry Morales
Juan Rivera
Aubrey Huff
Melvin Mora
Kevin Millar
Sammy
Bonds
Freel
Johnson
The kid from Oakland
Last and most desperate Thames.
Ugh… that’d be a horrible trade.
Heilman: WARP 3.7, VORP 19.4
Thames: WARP 1.2, VORP 4.1
3 of Marcus Thames still wouldn’t be as valuable as 1 Aaron Heilman.
And whoever tried to justify Thames on the basis that he’s clutch, really just proved that his ‘clutch’ disparity is meaningless, let’s look closer:
RISP: .309 BABIP
none on: .245 BABIP
Which just goes to show one of three things: he doesn’t bother swinging most of the time except with RISP, he’s played against fielders who can’t take the pressure, or he’s only lucky with men on.
BABIP is normally considered more reflective of the defense than the hitter, and if it is the hitter making the difference, do we really want a guy who doesn’t try most ABs?
Wow, thanks for completely misinterpreting both my post and a good deal of the concept of BABIP.
To start off with, I did NOT say Thames was worth Heilman. I did say I could see why the Tigers would ask for him given their bullpen problems. Nothing more. I said he might be worth Sosa.
As for BABIP…under your interpretation of it, I guess David Eckstein really IS clutch. There’s just a 20 point differential in BABIP, after all, much less than Thames….
Seriously, Thames generally swings for the fences or tries to hit the ball half a mile if there’s no one on base. If there’s someone on, he shortens up his swing and becomes far more of a patient hitter (and the stats back this up, too…he takes more pitches per PA with men on). While I believe 95% of position players can be predicted by current sabermetrics, Thames is an example of a guy who simply “gets lucky” FAR too often for it to be a fluke. Voros McCracken even stated a player’s luck will only last about three, at the most four years before he regresses to the mean when he came up with BABIP. Also, extrapolate both w/RISP and bases empty to 650 PA are the two stark differences you see are NOT strikeouts (160 w/RISP, 159 w/no one on) and walks (though he does walk more, it’s not a HUGE difference…56 vs. 72). Instead, the two big differences you see are doubles (48 vs. 26) and triples (4 vs. none at all).
Stick with the pitching to start the year. The Phillies bullpen might implode early, in which case, the need for that extra offense is lessened. Plus, if the Tigers bullpen becomes a problem early, they’ll probably be more likely to accept a guy like Sosa back for Thames. One of the guys being tossed around will likely be available, and we’d be in a better position once we know exactly what our bullpen looks like.
we know wat our bullpen looks like. itz one of the wrost in baseball