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In yesterday’s Cleveland Plain Dealer, Paul Hoynes reported that Indians GM Mark Shapiro and Mets GM Omar Minaya met in person on Wednesday night.
…naturally, this has led to a lot speculation that the two must have been discussing trade possibilities…
…from what i understand, the Mets are not looking for pitching…so, i believe we can scratch Cliff Lee from the list…instead, as has been reported quite often in the last week, the Mets continue to shop for an outfielder, who can hit lefties and has some power, such as Xavier Nady, who is barley available, if he’s available at all…for what it’s worth, the Pirates just demoted the one player who would have played in place of nady, had nady been traded…so, make of that what you will…
According to Tim Dierkes from MLB Trade Rumors, three outfield possibilities from Cleveland’s roster could be: Franklin Gutierrez, David Dellucci or Jason Michaels.
In 56 games for the Indians last season, the 34–year-old Dellucci hit just .230 with four HR, while batting .167 against lefties.
…umm, no…pass, please…however, he has been been battling forearm soreness all spring, while missing a lot of time, so, in that sense, he’d fit right in…
Michaels, 31, hit .270 with seven HR in 105 games for Cleveland last year, while batting .287 in 136 at-bats against lefties, during which he hit five home runs.
Michaels has played left, right and center field during his six-year career between Cleveland and Philadelphia.
Meanwhile, Gutierrez, 25, is slated to start in right field for the Indians, and hit .266 with 13 HR in 100 games last year.
Gutierrez hit .330 against left-handed pitching last year, and has a career .309 average in 68 games against lefties in his three major-league seasons.
…obviously, gutierrez is the most exciting of these players, and a guy i would go a bit out of the way to try and acquire…dellucci is not better than Angel Pagan, though…meanwhile, michaels seems fairly comparable to pagan…
…again, the goal must be better than pagan, otherwise i don’t understand giving up yet another young arm for the sake of adding to the outfield…if the Angels want a player like Jon Neise for Juan Rivera, it stands to reason that the Indians will at least want such a player for gutierrez – if not more, considering his slated to be a starter for them…
…that said, if the deal involves clearing a roster spot, or trimming a contract, that could make sense…otherwise i am fine with how the outfield currently stakes up – seeing as how no quality player will be acquired for free or for spare parts…
…of course, there is always the chance that minaya and shapiro just got together to have dinner and talk politics…
Thinking that if they make a deal it means they will trade Gotay and a reliever in a deal
Michaels is not bad but thought they would try and get a guy who can play 1B as well
Have a feeling they will just go with what they have to start the year and wait for Alou……..then use Easley as the main 1B/RF backup with Gotay in the IF
Maybe Omar’s asking about Casey Blake, who can play all over the field.
OR, is he asking about C.C.?
Blake would make sense…solid RH bat, plays 1B/3B/Corner OF…and Cleveland has Andy Marte to play 3rd…the problem is finding something Cleveland needs, at an acceptable price for them.
Thrilledge is better than all of these bums
How about a deal for Andy Marte? I’m purely speculating here, but he seems like the typical Minaya guy….once the top prospect in the game who has fallen from grace and battled small injuries. He can play first, third, and outfield. I’d take a chance on him if the price was right.
Marte actually makes some sense casue he is out of options and the Indians would likely dump him for Gotay……fair deal
but once again does he even play the OF or 1B for that matter……he’s a 3B guy
Gotay is out of options as well, isn’t he?
yea Gotay is out of options, if the Indians are looking to move thier 26th man they cant take one back…
thats why a Marte for a Neise type of guy trade makes sense for both sides.
The problem here is that teams have guys who are no better than Clark or Pagan, or much better. Another problem is that these teams the Mets are looking at dealing with are competitive teams. They want current big league help, and honestly they can get Schoeneweis like production from a AAA call up.
Marte for Neise totally makes no sense as a trade.
Marte’s a specialist 3B – no professional innings logged at any other position. We don’t need a 3B, we like our current one. Even if you do manage to turn Marte into a serviceable 1B/OF, his offensive production is very unlikely to exceed that of Pagan, Easley, Anderson, Endy or Gotay.
And we really can’t afford to be trading away yet another pitching prospect without making an obvious improvement to the team.
I, for one, don’t understand how these infielders even get brought into Mets trade talks. Our primary goal is an outfielder who can play 1B. I keep on hearing about 3B/1B players who possibly can play the outfield….nonsense….
Minaya getting Gutierrez without opening up major holes (Heilman, Pelfrey) is not gonna happen. If Omar can pull off a Gutierrez for Jon Niese, he’ll deserve more credit than he got for landing Santana….i don’t see any way the Mets can get anyone better than Pagan without trading away [our] top talent from the minors or opening up major holes on the major league roster…
I agree, if he gets Gutierrez for only Niese that is incredible. No thanks on Brandon Inge. He is a below average 3B to begin with, and with his contract, just no thank you.
We can throw around names forever but who thinks I am nuts to think that Brandon Inge is a good fit
Tigers will give him away and eat the salary…….he has 3 yrs left at 18 or so million
Scho has 2 yrs at 3
So how about the Tigers who need bullpen help take Schoenweiss at 3 million and give the Mets Inge and Cash to offset the contract?
Inge can play all over the place and hits lefties well…….plus he has been a starter so he can fill in LF for Alou in RF vs Lefties for Church and I am sure he can play 1B for Delgado
maybe throw them Gotay in the deal sicne he is out of options and there is no where to put him……..Tigers also have a surplus of OF’s ………..sure Thames would be great but he is part of the platoon in LF with Jacque Jones
I agree that Inge is agreat fit, but if they want Heilman for Thames, I imagine the price is equitable for Inge.
I agree with Inge as a great fit, but the main reason he wants out of Detroit is because he wants to be an every day player. With the age of the Mets in general, he would probably play a lot, but he wouldn’t be an everyday player with a set role, other than “utility guy,” something he already seems loath to do.
Plus, I think it’s his versatility that’s appealing more than his actual skills. He can play a lot of positions, though most of them at average ability, and his bat has fallen off a lot.
Inge is a horrible fit. He’s a 3B by trade – and he may be will do ok at other positions. The worse part about him is that we’ll be stuck with him for 3 years – and after ‘08 we’ll have no where to put him just like the tigers now. We need a one-year fill in for Alou and Delgado, not a 3 year headache….
Essentially what all this means is that Lastings Milledge must have really really really made himself an enemy of Omar’s. I mean, Church looks awful. Schneider? Well, everyone knows what he is (a light-hitting catcher).
The reality is hitting home. The trade was not in our favor, thus we will need to lose yet another young arm to fix the mistake.
Just stop, Millegde will not even do as well as Church this year. If people will calm down they will appreciate what Church gives us this season a professional who will hit well and field even better while being a great clubhouse guy with no distractions. That is the difference between him and wantabe Milledge.
The very fact that we could get 2 major league starters for Milledge seems like a steal for me.
Yea the Milledge crap needs to stop. It’s over get over it. We got 2 everyday starters for him, and hes still a huge question mark. Some people on this site think Milledge is a lock to make the All-Star team this year.
We would have JOHNNY ESTRADA as our catcher if we didn’t make this deal and we would still have the same exact problem in LF. So not only would we still have a light hitting catcher, but a light hitting catcher who can’t throw anyone out.
Plus its spring training, spring training numbers mean nothing, Church has had 1 season as a everyday player. Lets wait and see.
i think you are both out of line here. telling me to stop? what have you seen from scheider or church in their career that has shown you they are worth anything in a trade. the fact that church looks like billy crystal against lefties doesn’t worry you? i’m okay with schneider because most catchers can’t hit and he has a good reputation as a defensive catcher, but he’s not going to hit, and church does’t really hit.
i’m not saying milledge is going to have a better season than anyone right now, but damn, guys, this looks like a bad trade. it looked bad when they made and it’s looking worse now.
it’ll be a while before this milledge stuff with stop. sorry.
I think the key for you is realizing that in 2008 Schnider and Church are more valuable to the Mets than Milledge. There is no other argument that needs to be made here.
Come 2009 or 2010, you can bring this up again, but as of today we have a great defensive catcher and a RF who will produce comparable numbers to Milledge in 2008. I agree with you that a few years down the line, Milledge will be more valuable than both of these combined, squared, and multiplied by 5, but in 2008 his value is less [to the Mets] than these 2 guys….
so, we make decisions based on one year? and, we compare the production of players to one? not the way to look at.
of *two players to one?
What you need to realize is what someone pointed out to me earlier this week: if we didn’t ship LMillz out for Schneider and Church, he would have most likely been part of the Santana deal. Think about it. We got 3 for 5 instead of 1 for 4…
That is… 3 Major League-ready players for 5 prospects… Sounds a lot better now, huh.
Errr… Major LeaguERs…
TGIF.
i don’t know. minny said they didn’t want him. he most likely wouldn’t have been in the deal. but, let’s just say he would have been. we probably have carlos gomez now. or guerra, or mulvey, or humber. probably not a 5 for 1.
Just because they’re starters doesn’t make them good.
Exactly. Something that seems interesting to me is that I get the impression, that if we made a trade like say… Milledge for Ivan Rodriguez and Marcus Thames, people would callit a steal, and a fleecing, and things like that. I for one will take Schneider over Pudge everyday and twice on sunday. Schneider and Church are both solid, underated players. I remember when Paul Oneil couldnt hit left handed pitching either before the Yankees gave him a chance. We have a guy in Church, in his prime coming into a solid lineup, with a chance to finally get 600 at bats, and a top 5 defensive catcher, who still provides more offensive production then Lo Duca, despite batting 50 points lower. Schneider is only one of a handful of guys to have an 86 percent contact rate, and a 11 percent walk rate, and he will be batting 8th. I cant understand how anybody can complain about this trade, while blessing the Santana trade. We are in win-now mode.
We will not know how bad of a trade this is until or should i say if milledge lives up to his hype. I for one think it was a great trade considering how his trade value diminished once he got to the ML. If i remember correctly there was an article in some NY newspaper that said the Twins did not even want milledge in the trade for Santana. IF milledge was sooooo good as people say he is going to be, why settle for carlos gomez. Think about that for a second. The whole reason Minaya traded milledge’s a** was because he would not make a differance in the Santana trade. So with one move Minaya trades away a player who might not be as good as people say and is a constant distraction to fill two voids. People we would still be in the same predicament if not worse if Minaya did not do what he did. WE WOULD HAVE JHONNY ESTRADA AS OUR CATCHER!! HELLO!! that enough should send up red flags. Look we got a young defensivly sound catcher in schnieder and we got a DEPENDABLE(key word) defender in Church(something we may have never gotten with milledge at least for a few more years). 2 good dependable players for one player who may not live up to his hype. Id say we came out on top with that deal not to mention they are both lefties which help balance the line-up(of course now we may be abundant in lefties but the original plan would have given us a nice balance). Church and Schnieder will be fine come the regular season and like i said earlier, we will not know the magnitude of this trade until milledge reaches his peak and we would have won a few WS by then ; p
nrmax88, have you looked at paul o’neill’s splits? from you comment, i know you haven’t.
here are the differences in his OBP when hitting against righties and lefties over his nine year tenure with the yankees:
-.121, -.030, -.093, -.097, -.084, -.074, -.144, +.052, +.010.
it took paul o’neill eight seasons before he was able to bring his OBP even or better while hitting against lefties.
i chose OBP, the other stats are just as damning.
so, should we wait eight years for church to figure it out?
Can anyone guess how many games Ryan Church played in RF in his four years in the bigs? From the way everyone talks about his defense, I would expect that he has played many games there. I mean, to be a great fielder, one needs to know his position and feel comfortable there. Right?
The answer is 41 in 311 games or just 13% of the time. How many last year? NONE. 14 in 2006, 21 in 2005, and 16 in 2004.
Does anyone remember what happened this spring when an inexperienced RFer named Church had a chance in RF? Yeah, he ran right into a guy who was playing 2B named Anderson, who has played 679 of his 823 career games or 83% of time.
So, maybe we should wait before we call him a great defensive RFer. In fact, he should actually play LF, where he has played the most (156 of 311 games).
no response to these stats?
Marlon was playing 1b… a position he was inexperienced at. Cameron and Beltran are two of the best defensive OF in baseball. They collided too.
My lasting memory of Milledge is jogging after a double turned triple hit by Dontrelle Willis in arguably the biggest game of the year.
Remember when the season starts, pitchers will no longer just be throwing fastballs 90% of the time.
If you follow gamecast…look for alot of these during the course of this season.
Strike 3 Swinging with the location low and outside on a breaking ball.
Church will have a better season. Milledge will never become Gary Sheffield. More like Milton Bradley.
I might be in the minority, but I think Dellucci could be a good gamble… yeah, he’s a lefty, but he’d probably come cheaper than Gutierrez, and his short-term upside would be a lot higher (I bet he could slug 100 points higher than Gutierrez).
Count me as part of that minority. Delucci is also considered a strong leader and clubhouse presence. I have no qualms with the Mets adding one of those, especially if he can spot start and come off the bench with some pop.
Every time I read about the Mets looking to trade for an outfielder I just get more and more pissed off at Alou. Jeez, the guy can’t take a leak without hurting himself. Part of me wishes they would just tell Pagan ‘It’s all yours”, and tell Alou(and Duque, for that matter) SEE YA! The guy’s gonna come back from the hernia next month and get hurt again, what, a few weeks later?
Enough already.
Yea you are right we’d be better off cutting our LF. So not only would we not get his production (even if its for 10 games) but we would still have to pay him.
Makes perfect sense.
Guys a Hernia is not something that comes with age. Get over it. This Alou “injury” is nothing that could have been prevented whether he was 24 or 52. It is a freak thing that happens. Yea Alou is probably going to back on the DL at some other point during the season but this instance isn’t something that you say oh he is old that is why it happened.
Look i get pissed at the whole Alou situation as well but at the same time we knew what we were getting. Granted like Dj Def said earier, a hernia could not have been predicted but a trip to the DL for whatever reason was a given with Alou. Think about it this way it could be a blessing in disguise. We will be able to get a glimpse of what we got in our farm. Maybe pagan will be GREAT. In this game you never know but be glad he got injured now and hopefully not when we need him the most at a playoff run….:: cough, cough ::. Duque…………..
Alou is always getting hurt…it has nothing to do with his age…he’s just so injury prone….it’s always either a hamstring or a shoulder or a calf muscle or a hernia…it has nothing to do with age…it’s just Alou’s body that’s crappy….
and it is a shame, because the g uy is certainly a hall of fame talent…Imagine what he could have done with a less brittle body.
Yes, it does. Thanks.
I think we would all agree that NADY and THAMES are the best two options.
We get either one of those guys and I’m happy, obviously what it would cost us would affect how happy.
Other than that, among the names being mentioned, its not worth it. There is some sort of hang up with everyone esle, players want to start, some are hurt and some are just downright an upgrade over Easley, Chavez, Pagan.
If not Nady and Thames, lets go to war with what we got.
You don’t worry so much about the OF situation when you look at our Starting Rotation .
Lets not forget what a deep starting rotation can do. You can just roll. Our hitting is sufficient in supporting in this staff.
I truly belive last years weakness in the bullpen is over. We have soem good arms to play with. Different looks, different arm angles, some power pitchers, some change up specialists.
I’m starving for regular season bsaeball
LETS GO METS
Besides Reyes and Wright, our hitting is a question mark all the same…i gave up hope on Delgado’s “bounce back year” – this guy will hit 230 again…and on the days when Beltran is out (be it for rest or his annual knee problems) our offense is going to look worse than the National’s lineup….
I dont think Delgado will have a blow away season but i have not given up hope he will be productive. I believe he is on a walk year so he will leave everything on the field.
Problem is, he may not have anything left to leave…
The last Mets team to make the World Series had a starting outfield of Jay Payton, Timo Perez, and Benny Agbayani. Offensively, they were not overpowering; other than Piazza, they had a lot of decent-but-streaky hitters. They were propelled by two top-notch pitchers at the top of their rotation (Leiter and Hampton) plus a solid 3-through-5.
All’s I’m saying is, great pitching can can make up for a multitude of offensive ills (see: last year’s Diamondbacks). The 2008 Mets have great pitching, and you could argue that, even accounting for injuries and a bad year from Delgado, they have a better lineup than the 2000 Mets.
Pitching wins ballgames. Our pitching will keep us in the game no doubt. Just gotta make sure everyone stays healthy enough for the long haul…. ah the leiter and hampton days…. lol trip down memory lane
You’re absolutely right. That’s why the theme of Omar’s offseason has been defense. try explaining that to the people who are still crying over Milledge…
I totally would not agree, and I know I’m not alone, that Thames would be one of the two best options.
His OBP flat-out stinks.
You’re not alone. Thames belongs on a non-contender.
*some are hurt and some are just downright NOT an upgrade over Easley, Chavez, Pagan.
Minaya stated many times in interviews that Shapiro is one of his closest friends in the business. My guess is that there is nothing to this other than friends having a chance to catch up with each other.
Even if the meeting was “just between friends” they must have talked baseball and roster, seeing that both teams got some moves to make. They weren’t just sitting there having lunch and discussing the weather and american idol…
i was thinking that as well.. didnt they used to work together somewhere?
although good friends tend to trade with each other… no way they could go a whole lunch without throwing a couple ideas around.
Knowing omar… He will be. Willie and him are definatly on the chopping block this year for sure. They are built to win this year and need to win this year. Omar has made great strides with this franchise(albeit with some questionable trades but the overall finished product has been great for the Mets organization), but you gotta believe patience is running thin. Since he came on, we have only made the playoffs one year(which should have been our time to win) and produced 2 above .500 seasons. Now we have arguably the best pitcher in baseball and officially the highest payroll in the NL. Omar has to win this year im sure or he can officially say his a** is on the line. Thats my thought. If there is a way to get it done, im sure omar will find it.
i think playoffs are all he needs.
After you get in, anything can happen… willie on the other hand…
Remember nobody thought we would land pedro/beltran/wagner/delgado and most recently Santana. Omar im sure has tricks up his sleave and he always thinking about putting the best team out there without shooting ourselves in the foot (i.e. Kasmir) and NO milledge is not a Kasmir deal.
Yea good point. I like willie and i think he is learning on the job as well. He has come along way since 05 and he has the potential to be a really good manager. Just has to get that baseball IQ up that all.
i dont like willie and want a manager who is a good manager NOW…a team to win now and a manager in training makes no sense…
We have no buisness trading anybody from our team or our minors, especially anymore pitchers or pitching prospects. We cant keep playing “catch up” to mask the mistake of the Milledge deal. Milledge will be a 20-20 player this year. 20 hr’s and 20 sb’s. With a .280 avg., 85 Rbi’s, and 80 Runs. Hopefully Church can do the same. But regardless its done so we must move on. There is no outfielder out there that can do any better than Clark or Pagan will do. I actually like Clark alot, and Pagan as well. So I say no to trading Neise and definitly no to trading our 8th inning pitcher in Heilman. Trading Heilman should not be an option AT ALL! I dont even want to trade Sosa. He was lights out in spot starts last season. As for Gotay, he is a great bat and a below average glove and I wouldnt be opposed to dealing him but who can we really get back in return? A decent back-up 1B? We should have just signed Sean Casey when he was available like Boston did. He is a great avg. hitter and signed to back-up Youk in Boston. He would have only cost money and can be an everyday 1B if Delgado is out for an extended period. No pop really but I like him. But I should take my own advice and realize whats done is done.
Tony Clark would have been a nice signing too. Where did he go? We will have to overpay for Nady but he would be perfect. 1B and OF. But seems the Pirates want no part of dealing him. That Sanchez taxi ride really screwed us on so many levels. We had to deal Nady but I guess I have to look at it like hey we got Perez in that deal as a throw in! Worked out for sure.
Sorry for rambling but I just think in summary that we have what we need already at least for now and dont need to make panic trades. We can deal at anytime or wait to see who is cut from other teams at the end of the Spring.
I agree. Honestly, all things considered, I don’t see Omar making any moves until we get the season under way and see how Pagan/Clark/Chavez perform in LF, as well as Delgado’s production and Alou’s recovery progress. He can easily wait another 3-4 weeks before stirring things up.
Santana for Hafner straight up
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how bout johan santana,carlos delgado, moises alou,fernando martinez and brian schneider for travis hafner, c.c. sabathia, victor martinez,cliff lee and franklin gutierez
wint happen though lol
wont happen though lol
I finally reached my fed up point about bringing someone for LF/1B. I’m ready to go with what we have and let’s start the season already!! Although Nady would be soooo perfect, damn there I go again. But seriously if it’s not Nady, and I/m resigned to the fact his price is too high, then let’s go with current roster.
hell yea
im tired of seeing that we need a right handed 1st baseman that can play out field corners, i mean angel pagan and endy chavez can play the outfield and marlon anderson and damion easley can play first base, and they can play out field also. damion easley can play second and shortstop aswell.
if they need to trade scott schoenweis do so. how bout signing sammy sosa to play backup first baseman and he can also play outfield, mashes lefties. i like sosa because he used to be one of my favorite’s and he is dominican like i am, i bet minaya would like to sign him but for less than 3 million but thinks fans wont like it , who agrees?
I get the feeling that if Omar was seriously interested in Sammy then he would’ve done it already. I think ur right though, he probably thinks this is a perfect scenario for Sosa but probably couldn’t get past ownership due to the expected negative public response.
I wouldnt have a negative response. He is no way juicing anymore and showed he still has pop in his bat last year. With Clemens, Bonds, Pettite, etc Sosa is a secondary story when it comes to roids. Sosa would be a great signing being he fills what we need and doesnt cost players. But good point made that if Omar was interested he would have signed him by now. Hopefully he changes his mind though.
YOU CAN’T JUST SAY SOMEONE CAN PLAY A POSITION THAT’S THAT!
marlon anderson has played a total of 30 of 823 games at first base (that’s 3.6%). i would not be okay with him playing first.
damion easley has played a total of 23 of 1511 games at first base (that’s 1.5%). i would not be okay with him playing first, either.
this team needs a backup first basemen.
Sosa!
huh?
Sosa for 1B!
why would you think that would work?