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Carlos Beltran was robbed of a home run during last night’s 13–0 win over the Marlins in Miami.
…as i wrote last night, the ball, which clearly bounced off the railing in center field, was initially called a home run…however, 
with beltran back on the bench, after having rounded the bases, all four umps gathered on the infield and reversed the call…look, even without instant replay, logic should dictate that any ball bouncing directly 20 feet up in the air had to have done so by ricocheting off metal, not the padded wall…
Willie Randolph, who jogged out to discuss the call, speaking with reporters after last night’s win, said:
“It’s funny, the guy thats closest to the ball saw it as a home run, and he let the other guys over-rule him, which I didn’t understand…He made some excuse about, they weren’t moving. I guess, when you’re running out to the position, which you should be, I guess your head moves…What are ya gonna do, it didn’t hurt us.”
According to the Daily News and Star-Ledger, Beltran, who had already been in favor of instant replay for such occasions, is now 100 percent in favor of instant replay for such occasions.
I read somewhere that the ump closest to the ball said he was only 87.5% sure it was a homerun, so he got overruled.
I’m undecided on this issue. I feel like baseball is so pure. No time limits, no electronic devices, no instant replay. It is probably the sport where the umps (refs) have the least effect on the outcome of a game. In basketball, a lot of foul calls are completely subjective and can dictate the outcome of a game. Same in Football with some penalties.
All I know is that Beltran is seriously walking the walk so far this year. The last guy who made a “we’re the team to beat” prediction won the MVP.
Hope your right, but he walked the walk in April last year as well, then went on to hit .234, .238, and .208 for May-July. The key for him is to remain consistent throughout the year and play well particularly against the Phillies.
one tweak of something in his legs and his walking the walk will become slimping the walk.
limping the walk, obviously.
“limping the limp” would have been better.
I think he’s gonna need to play well against the Braves moreso than the Phillies if the Mets want to win this division. I really don’t see the Phills as the bigger threat, especially with their pitching staff as it is.
You’re probably right, but from a fan’s perspective, I would rather see him kill the Phils more than the Braves simply because of what happened last year and the smack that Rollins talked.
I’d rather just see the Mets win the division.
I hate the Phillies too, but you have to give Rollins credit for stepping up and doing what it took to back up his pronouncement.
It’s nice how you left out the fact that he hit .338 and .282 in August and September.
I’d have to disagree. I think the umps/refs in baseball have a huge effect on the outcome of the game. Especially in regards to the calling of ball/strikes, let alone close calls at the bags.
I’d have to say they have more power than their colleages in the other major sports.
I think they have the most effect on the outcome too, I thought that was an odd comment. In no other sport do the refs have a say on every single play (balls/strikes, close plays at first).
I have to disagree with brooklyn mets fan. I have played baseball, basketball, and football and there is no doubt in my mind the baseball is least affected by the umpires compared to football and especially basketball. A basketball game can be completely changed by the way the refs are calling the game.
Thank you. Yes, they are involved on every single play because of balls and strikes, but there is a defined strike zone. It is not subjective like foul calls in basketball or penalties in football.
the defined strike zone is subjective, just as fouls are defined, but subjective.
I guess this whole topic is subjective. Either way, I’m torn on the replay idea.
personally, I actually like the subjective strike zone and would hate to see that automated. Home runs would be something that could be replayed. I also think they could use a sensor system at first base to get those close calls.
An objective, unchanging electronic strike zone would give a HUGE advantage to batters, and would upset the balance between pitcher and hitter more than juicing did in the 90s.
refs in other sports only exist to enforce the rules. the home plate ump in baseball defines the very game by the way he calls the strike zone.
in my experience it is much easier to play pick up football or b-ball with no officials, but without an ump calling the zone we always had to change the fundamental rules of balls and strikes.
Well said, and in my opinion, irrefutable.
You cannot compare a pickup game to an organized game. lol
What I don’t understand is, if the umps are going to huddle and discuss the call for a few minutes anyway and whatever they rule will cause some sort of discussion with one of the managers, why not introduce replay? It would be quicker and cut down on manager arguments.
I’d rather know the right call was made because they actually looked over the play again vie replay than a play being overturned because an umpire was ‘convinced’ of the right call as if the other umps were some kinda salesmen. I disagree that baseball isn’t affected by the umps like other sports are. It really is…and if you are in favor of umps screwing up calls to save the “purity” of baseball, that’s fine. I’d rather get the calls right, period.
How often do Piniella’s tantrums change anything? Not very.
Maybe it’s a better idea to save it for when it really counts. I mean, does anyone seriously think we’d blow a 5-run lead against the Marlins? The Marlins ferchrissakes!
If he got suspended for a series that counted for arguing a call in a blowout game, that would be seriously damaging.
am I the only one who wanted to see Willie get thrown out over this? Take a stand man, make a scene, you think Pinella would have gone down that easy?
We won 13-0 thrown out is a little extreme.
when you are up 5-0 instead of 6-0 it’s hard to expect the manager to get thrown out over a call like that. if it was the ninth and we were down two runs and there were two outs, that would have been a different story.
That would have been bat-sh*% stupid!
blah .. pinella and his tantrums are silly, overrated, and a thing of the past. I’d rather have a manager keep his cool than fly off the handle. Today’s players don’t need/want a screaming baby on their asses..
prog rocks, I am with you here, first it was only 5-0 at the time, second, why change the call? I would like to see some fire from Willie, sure it is only the 3rd game, sure the call was going to have little effect on the outcome most likely, but how about showing the team that you have that fire for every game, for every call that we as fans demand from the players. I think he should have walked out to the wall and embarassed the crap out of the ump.
Why? I didn’t see Beltran going off the handle because the call was reversed. Didn’t look like anyone was all that ticked off about it. I would think from where they all were, the team wasn’t to sure themselves if it went over. Willie probably went out there to ask why the decision was reversed, not to argue that the ball was out, because I dont think he was sure it did. Gary, Keith, and Ron weren’t even sure till they saw the replay. So going out there to argue like a maniac would have just been stupid. Besides, as everyone said the score already was in their favor, so why go out and tick off an ump who’ll remember it (as they all do)? The next time he goes out to argue with that ump, when he really has a case, the ump won’t listen and toss him out before he ever gets the chance to plead that case. You have to pick your fights.
Ok, first off, THIS time he really had a case. He wasn’t trying to get them to change the call, they already had, and if ticking off an ump who will remember is the problem, don’t you think the same ump will remember that Willie is a pushover and will just head back to the dugout, tail between his legs, shaking his head. Wow, that’ll help the Mets next time. Maybe, just maybe, if a manager holds the umpire up for scrutiny, and his mistake is shown on every highlight show in America, the next time he’ll make his decision based on what he should do, not whether the score is 5-0 or 6-0, and because Willie is a nice guy.
No, you’re not. Willie should have flipped his lid.
I agree, there should be certain plays set up that are reviewable. It would actually speed the game up eliminating some of the manager rants. I don’t think everything should be reviewable but in cases of whether a home run went out or a close play at the plate, yes. Not like we are reviewing balls and strikes and if that is not subjective to an umps interpretation I don’t know what is.
There is simply no reason NOT to replay home run calls. It is such an easy fix, why risk getting something like that wrong when it doesn’t take much time to see the play and make a decision.
umps are in position to make pitch and base calls, but there is no way they can make accurate HR calls. making the HR situation unique and worthy of replay.
Baseball is “pure”? Baseball is the one sport that sticks out from the rest when it comes to artificial and illegal means of staying ahead of the competition. 50 yrs ago the game was “pure”. Now it is a muti billion dollar business that should use any means possible to not screw up the game any further. MLB needs to take some lessons from the NFL and quit their arrogance and admit that these men who referee the game are human and make human mistakes with consequences that affect many people from the player to the fan. Pure?
huh?
Charlie, read the second post on this thread. Thanks a bunch…
Well said as usual, I agree.
Charlie, Ive seen you post before. Youre a pretty smart dude. Read the second comment on this thread…
Whoops.. Negate one of my comments. The server at work sucks more than a Spitzer call girl…
nice…
i see your point now. nothing really is “pure” anymore. it’s called evolution. for instance, wild cards.
This is related to the Willie approval poll but there is no place to add comments so I’m writing it here. I think there should be a numerical “fan confidence index” to rate Willie rather than a simple yes or no approval vote. Like the fan confidence rating for the team direction, I think this would give a better guage of fan’s assessment than a knee-jerk yes or no after every series. Plus, it’s a bit early in the season for an overall approval/disapproval for a manager’s performance.
In the postseason there would be outfield umpires who would leave no doubt about this. Why not just replace them with cameras for regular season games?
There were outfield umpires in the Yankee /Baltimore game years ago when Jeff what’s his name committed the fan interference and the Umps still got it wrong
so, what you are saying is you would deport umps as well as liberals?
Replacing humans with machines? Doesn’t sound very conservative to me. I think he’s ideologically confused.
Big Brother is watching…baseball.
How many times have we seen fan interference on a home run or a missed call in the post season even though there is an ump out there.
I think replay would be good for baseball in certian spots. Obviously using replay to argue balls and strikes would make the game extremely long, but in a situation like this it would have been nice to get the call right. Granted they were already up by a healthy margin but like i read somewhere where beltran said if the mets or any team was losing and a hr would have put them ahead…getting this call wrong would be devistating. I dont see replay happening in baseball but i think they should seriously consider it. I think implementing like football with a challenge. If the managers contest a umps decision and the ruling stands the team is charged with an out. But baseball is a strategy sport and im sure a larussa guy will figure out how to use that to their advantage. I dont know but a replay with very strict rules on when to use it and a costly punishment for being incorrect would be in the best interest in my opinion for the game.
Forget instant replay in a MLB ballpark anytime soon. I mean, you can’t even show close plays on the stadium Jumbotrons for crying out loud! The Umpire’s Union is very strong and will never allow this.
The reason they don’t show close-up replays in stadiums is because of the fear of fan dissent.
I know Im gonna get killed for saying this, but Willie not arguing hard on this call is one of the 2 reasons I voted that I was not satisfied in Willies job these 3 games. Im sorry, but if we were taught anything by last years collapse, its that 5 to 7 run leads against these crummy teams are never safe, and not to take anything for granted. Willie should have gone nuts. Anyone with half a brain knows a ball doesnt hit a padded fence and bounce 30 feet in the air. It wasnt 11-0, it was 5-0 in the middle innings….they were a 3 run homer away from having a ball game. Im sorry but “It didnt hurt us” is not good enough. WAKE UP WILLIE, show some sense of urgency once in a while. I hate that mentality, and clearly the team took that mentality onto the field during the collpase.
By the way, the 2nd reason I voted no to willie doing a good job was because of his response after opening day when he was indifferent to Castillo not running out, and scoring on Beltrans fly ball double. Castillo should not have been benched but it should have been addressed, not made a joke of by Willie.
no matter how much he freaked out, that call’s not going to be reversed, then reversed again .. what’s the point? To make the highlight reels? Didn’t really look like the boys needed extra motivation last night, so I fail to get your point.
I think the point is pretty clear. “It didnt hurt us” is not something you want to hear out of a manager who supposedly has a killer instinct. Well WIllie, what if it did hurt us? Then what? And how do you know the call wouldnt be overturned again? Obviously nobody in that group of umps said “Hey, if it hit the fence, why did it bounce up 30 feet?” because if 1 of them said it, it would be clear it was a homerun. So maybe if Willie said that they would have overturned it. Who knows? And it isnt just this terrible call…..Willie never argues, he just goes with the flow….just like the Mets did the last 17 games of last season….
I have yet to see a manager’s arguing and screaming and making a huge deal change a game either way, so I don’t get why everyone wants to see it so bad, if not for the show aspect of it.
I think you saw Willie NEVER yelling and screaming directly affect the Mets season. In my opinion his lethargic carefree attitude both towards the collapse, and umpires had an influence on the way the team played. Feel free to disagree but it was clear that the team played as if they were saying, “if we lose today, hopefully we can say, “it didnt hurt us” tomorrow.” Sound familiar?
word .. agree to disagree. Understand your point about Sept, but I don’t think suddenly turning into an irrational screaming manager will help.
Maybe Willie did address it, to Castillo in private, where it should be addressed.
If you listened to his post game he didnt even know Castillo didnt run it out (not knowing is inexcusable). Then after becoming aware of it, he made a joke out of it…..sorry, not the right message.
he often plays dumb with the press like that because he thinks a lot of their questions are irritating. I like that he doesn’t throw the players under the bus, knowing that a little quote can be a huge headline the next day. There was talk that last september he got a little heated in the clubhouse, though we didn’t see an indication in the press — as it should be imo.
It’s become clear to me that some met fans want a controversial, headline grabbing manager. I fail to see the point in it…
I fail to see the point in anything Piazza45 says, but it does give me a good laugh.
before the “home run” beltran was only 91.25% in favor of instant replay
umpires in baseball have the MOST effect that any other sport … they have to make calls every 30 seconds for christ sake (balls and strikes) … difference between putting hitter in 3-1 instead of 2-2 all game long can totaly change a game
The problem with replay in baseball, or any sport, is the arbitrary decision of where to draw the line.
You can review fair or foul on a HR, but not on a double. You can review a fumble if it is ruled a fumble, but not if it is ruled down by contact.
It’s ridiculous. If you can review one thing, you should be able to review anything. They weren’t allowed to review that Phil Dawson FG that bounced off the upright?
Why not just get rid of on field umpires altogether and just have a guy in a booth watching the game on TV make all the calls. Or better yet, get rid of all the umpires and just have a computer do it. That would probably save some money too.
Sure, they get calls wrong, but it all evens out over the long term.
I hate to bring this up again, but…
The Mets should use instant replay to see if they got the Kazmir trade right, and then reverse the call.
try that one when he’s not out w/ an elbow problem!
m00kie, I understand what you’re saying, but Kazmir’s still more likely to contribute positively to the Rays this year than Zambrano or Fortunado will contribute to the Mets.
sure enough, but elbow problems in a kid that young never turn out well..Could it be Petersen saw something in his delivery and figured he’d end up damaged goods? no idea, but maybe. If he flames out in a year or two, that trade would be out of our minds for good (hallelujah).
hahahaha… thats a great one
I must say that the Marlins did EXACTLY what they should have done on that play, and that is to play it as if it were off the wall. I think that really helped to overturn the call.
Good point..
It didn’t help that Beltran stopped at 2nd and started to take off his shin guard.
also an excellent point..
Joe B and ER making some very good and interesting points on Pedro this morning…..and they have already crossed my mind prior to their discussion.
We all love Pedro, his intensity, his enthusiasm for the game, the crowd loves him, etc. No ones disputing this but honestly….as much as I want to love him, I’m getting a little fed up with the act. He gets hurt….months of rehab, comes back. Healthy all spring so we heard, pitches 3 innings….out for 2 months again. I mean…in spirit we will miss him, but I think its really time to move on without him in this rotation. He’s not the 3rd best pitcher on this staff anymore.
Part of me says get better soon Pedro. And the other part says, enough of this guy…….getting hurt in your first start of the year is embarassing to the team and their fans. It becomes a joke. We need to stop relying on him for any significant contribution the remainder of this season. He’s old, hes injury prone, and once he returns…it will probably happen again. And when it does..I think we can all finally agree that the Pedro era is over.
I agree with you. Theres something about pedro that makes you love em but at the same time hes really only pitched in 05 and we all remember how that ended. I mean as far as pitching wise i dont think he has contributed as we have hoped and expected. There is not doubt that the addition of pedro changed the face of this franchise and i think that in itself may overshadow his preformance as a pitcher. It will be very interesting if the mets extend his contract.
They kind of need to extend his contract or else they may be left with Maine, Johan and……???
As much as I would not mind Pedro coming back as our Elduque option next season there are many good pitchers that stand to be on the market next fall.
Because its his fault he is older and has a small body and can gets injured? Give me a break. An embarrassment? Man, take a step away from the sports radio and the internet. Pedro has ALWAYS had an injury history, the Mets knew this when they signed him, everyone has known this. When he can pitch he is still pretty effective, its just that he, well, can’t pitch that much anymore. Most people didn’t expect much more than 100 innings this year, which is around what I expected as well. You should blame the Mets for signing him and for maybe not addressing the depth of the rotation, since I don’t expect much more than 100 innings at most from El Duque either. Like I said, blame the Mets for signing and old injury prone pitcher, but don’t say Pedro is putting on an act.
Yup, we should have brought in another innings eater for the rotation and rotated Pedro and Elduque. Their ego would have never allowed it but still those two together might make 1 spot in the rotation over the course of the season.
The funny thing is if this call cost us a game in late September or October then we would all be in favor of replay the fact that it took place on April 2nd when we won 13-0 has a lot to do with everyones point of view.
I’ve been saying for years we need instant replay in homerun calls, and stolen bases. Those 2 things only. They get messed up constantly and its not fair. Umpires get calls on 2nd base steals wrong almost every night, because its impossible to see that quickly.
You cant do it for balls / strikes because the games would be 9 hours long. But for HR’s and stolen bases…I say, put in instant replay and use it as much as you need.
I don’t know why baseball is so stubbornly against it. The game isn’t pure anymore. Every other player is juiced, HGH’d, or has bouncy balls in the barrel of their bat. What the hell is so pure about the game?
The concept of the game is pure (in theory if you will). Without steroids the game would be fine. I personally don’t support instant replay for home run calls because it will extend the game even further. Here is my proposed solution:
Get rid of all these dumbass lines like they have at minute maid park. If the ball is in the stands, its a homer. If the ball stays in the park, its not a homer. Its not a very complicated idea. The whole concept of having those yellow lines on walls where above is a homer and below is now a homer reminds me of playing wiffle ball in the backyard where a ball stuck in the tree is a ground rule double, if it gets into the fenced garden, thats a triple, and only if you get it over the hedges can you decalre the ball a homer.
The only issue that I have with fan interference is that its hard to make a clear decision whether those balls should be homers or ground rule doubles. Personally, i say that they should be considered home runs but if/when that happens the fan should be immediately thrown out of the stadium. When someone intereferes in any other sport (running onto the field or anything) they are throw out of the park, and so should those interfering fans. Maybe you can say those should be ground rule doubles, but that fan should DEFINATELY get thrown out. He’s paying to be a spectator, not a participant.
great point about the silly home run lines.. if it’s out, it’s out that should be the rule.
Umpires making mistakes is part of the game and will always be a part of the game.
Every umpire has a different strike zone, bang bang plays can be decided either way, and sometimes the ball goes over the fence and is ruled a double.
these mistakes take place during the season and in no way should be reviewed. bad hops and bad calls are part of the game.
what is next if they do that. review of strikes. umpire objectiveness has been and always will be in this sport
yeah and in 1867 batters could request the pitcher to throw it high or low. That was an official rule and part of the game. Let’s move on. Just because something has occurred since the game started doesn’t make it right.
No you introduce a strict instant replay policy that would only be enforced for steals and homeruns as noted earlier. Remember, situations that happened last night dont occur on a daily basis. Im no statistician but I can bet what happened last light occurs MAYBE once a month throughout the entire sport so its not something that people can honestly say will constantly drag out a game and with strals its moreless obvious if a guy is safe or not. Also all those people not in favor of instant replay I can surely guarantee that if this was September in a tied ball game while we’re in a virtual tie with the Braves and Phils, youd be singing a different story…
steals*
The “home run” last night should not have been a home run. Did it stay in the park? Yes. NOT a home run. But thats more about my issue with the Marlins having the liberty to randomly assign the metal bar as home run territory, the yellow line as not, and all that other crap.
So from what youre saying a ball that bounces off some poor shmucks head in the stands and drops back into the field should not be considered a home run? Or say we’re in Miami where there is a total of 42 people at the game and a ball richocets of a seat, bounces off a wall and drops back into the field, still no dinger?
no, if it lands out and bounces back, that’s still out. But having these crazy lines and hand rails and scoreboards just confuses the issue imo.
At the end of the day the rule is the ball has to be above the yellow line and the umpires got it wrong because it clearly was above….
And considering questionable home runs occur maybe 5 or 6 times a year for every team I highly doubt this would be a issue of time or “purity”.
The purity argument is absurd and has no basis in logical discussion. Define what purity means in the context of baseball and explain how a once every 30 games instant replay that would take a minute or two would ruin said purity or elongate the game to unbearable lengths.
It seems to work for the cash cow American God of a sport that is football and no one complains about the constant stoppages and ref conferences, not too mention challenges…
Thanks for backing me up m00kie, and thanks for showing your horrendous reading comprehension and basic reasoning skills, “qnsnative”.
I hated this call. It hurt my fantasy team.
this obviously had no impact on the game but that call REALLY bothered me last night.
the fact is that they got it right originally. in my opinion, the umpire who had the call made the call. in order to get overruled, the other umpires should be absolutely certain that the original call was incorrect. if you really think about it, they stopped the game and reversed the correct call. what could any of the umpires have saw that made them REVERSE the correct call.
human error is part of the game but I think MLB should investigate what went on in that conference. I don’t care about stats and the outcome was not affected, but shouldn’t umpires be given specific directions on when a call could be reversed? I don’t know what one of them thought they saw that made it worthy of reversing. I think MLB should ask that question.
I agree, but unfortuanately because the game was a blow out and occurred on april 2nd, Bud selig and the powers that be probably arn’t aware there was even a game in Miami last night. Hell look at the stands people that live there don’t know there was a game.
maybe Beltran should have pulled a george Brett. I bet Selig would have noticed that. no harm done. I would just like to know the justification for reversing the correct call.
The last thing we need is Beltran botling out of the dugout in a rage and pulling his hamstring in the process.
I’m all for no instant replay to be used, however for some stupid reason all these ballparks have these crazy elaborate fences with odd lines that make it very difficult to determine Home runs, which is a very important part of the game.
What ever happened to the days where if the ball simply went over the fence it was a home run. So, if ball parks are going to have these odd shaped fences with padding and yellow lines as thick as 4 baseballs that shift all over the place, then you have to have some sort of instant replay for determining whats fair is fair because the ball parks certainly aren’t.
Here’s the way I look at it: When baseball was invented (or more accurately, evolved) in the mid 19th century, the reason they started using umpires was because it was the best method they had at their disposal to ensure calls were called fairly and accurately. I absolutely, 100% guarantee you that if instant replay was available in 1876, the National League would have adopted it. For baseball to fail to do so today is idiotic.
And by the way, I’m generally a traditionalist who hates the Wildcard and Interleague Play.
and don’t even get me started on the DH…
2 points. If in any day you can tell me how to officiate a competetive event between 2 opponents by any other means that an independant third party, I’d love to hear it.
Umpires werent some ‘revelation’, they were absolutely necessary to have anything related to a sport. Do you think they comtemplated employing the honesty code? Umpires/refs/judges have been around since people started organized competetion. You cannot say beasball was innavators…
Secondly, and I dont know how many I speak for, but the reason I love baseball so much is that its about the only thing that HASNT been ‘upgraded’. The NCAA’s have a zillion commercials, the NFL is a corporate machine(not like MLB isnt, but the ‘game’ is basically the same as 100 years ago outside of a few tweaks.) Can’t ONE THING not be ‘2000ised’. I like that there are bad calls in baseball. Babe Ruth had calls go against him. So did Mike Piazza. So will David Wright. Human error is PART OF THE GAME. Baseball is a reflection of reality…..its been perfect for over 100 years…
Leave it alone….
Yikes…last sentence, 2nd paragraph….You cannot say that baseball was the innovator of employing ‘umpires’…..
That sounds better.
In terms of this conversation about officials in other sports, I would have to say that umpires in baseball have the least effect on the outcome of a game.
It may have been said already by someone, but when was the last time you heard people complaining about a baseball game or series being “fixed” or decided by the umpiring. Look at the 2006 Finals when Dwyane Wade got a ridiculous amount of calls and most people thought the Heat were given that series by the refs (to f@#$ Mark Cuban perhaps?). How about the Steeler super bowl win over the Seahawks, when the steelers 12th man was wearing white and black stripes. The only thing remotely close to this that I can think of in baseball is the Livan Hernandez game against the Braves in the 97 NLCS, when Gregg had a ridiculous strike zone. Even so, he presumably had the same zone for the Braves’ pitchers. Without a boubt in my mind baseball is the least directly influenced by the officials, with basketball being the most.