|
|
|
Yesterday in Detroit, Royals RHP Brian Bannister allowed no runs and two hits through seven innings while striking out four.
Mets GM Omar Minaya traded Banniser to Kansas City in December, 2006, in exchange for RHP Ambiorix Burgos, 
who has pitched in just 17 games for New York, and who will miss most of this season following Tommy John surgery.
In 27 starts for the Royals last season, Bannister was 12–9 with a 3.87 ERA, though he struggled in September going 1–2 in five starts with a 7.30 ERA.
In a post to Mets Today, Joe Janish writes that it may still be premature to fully evaluate the Bannister-for-Burgos deal.
…i have been sent a lot of e-mail in the last day whining that minaya traded away bannister and does not get enough flack for it, which i think is mostly heightened by the sudden need for a fifth starter…
…i’m not sure why some people operate with the idea that every trade will be a gem…bad trades happen…especially when scouts and executives put so much stock in ‘stuff,’ like they all do…
…yes, the Mets should regret trading bannister, just like they should regret trading Heath Bell, as they will both likely continue to be poor trades…
…at the same time, they should continue to believe in burgos, and Jason Vargas, while boasting about deals that brought in Duaner Sanchez (for Jae Seo), John Maine (for Kris Benson), Johan Santana (for four minor leaguers), and Xavier Nady (for Mike Cameron), who helped get Oliver Perez…
…again, bad trades happen, but good trades happen too…it’s all part of the game…you take the good with the bad and hope it all comes out in your favor in the end…
I totally agree with you. But I think Maine and Jorge Julio came in for Kris Benson… and then we got El Duque for Jorge Julio.
Basically, Benson and Nady got us Maine, Perez, El Duque and a half year of Roberto Hernandez.
And something else no one seems to mention. If Duaner wasn’t in that accident, we probably never get Oliver Perez. Of course, we may well very have a 2006 WS as well…
Well really, you could look at as Benson and Cameron got us those four guys, since Nady was acquired for Cameron. However you put it, that is a huge steal!!
you’re right, but Matt is correct with his point, too many people want every trade to work, and seem to think that the Mets should take more flack or don’t make good trades because of a couple mistakes. EVERY team makes bad trades, look at Terry Ryan in Minnesota, sure, he pulled off a great trade to get Liriano and all, but he also made some horrible ones before that happened. Expecting every trade to work out, or expecting your GM to have the foresight to predict every player’s value and future results is ridiculous. You take the bad, and hopefully there’s more good, which I’d say there has been around here for the past 3 years.
Getting on some trades is ridiculous. The Bannister deal is one of them. In Bannister for Burgos, you knew you were giving up a solid back-end starter for a high-upside young reliever. Based on team needs, and without the foreknowledge of Burgos’s injury, that’s a fine trade, with bad results.
The ones that sting are those where a good player is run out of town. You could see the Heath Bell trade sucking a mile away — everyone who likes stats was screaming about how Bell was going to be good at the time. I can show you my own comments from that day. So to say no one could see Bell blossoming is untrue. All the arrows pointed to him being a stud reliever, once he got past a little bad luck. That was a bad trade that shouldn’t have been made.
So there’s a big difference, in my book.
In Bell’s case much of his performance was dictated by his erratic usage at the major league level. I don’t believe he would have performed with the Mets as he has with SD. His minor league peripherals suggested his major league performance should be quite good but you can’t use this to project a performance level if the manager cannot or will not use you in a manner that gives you the best chance of succeeding.
Absolutely agree, Matt. People seem to have this belief that GMs have a magical crystal ball that they bring out every winter, allowing them to make the perfect trade. Obviously, doesnt happen.
you forgot the millidge deal also…=/
and lindstrom and so forth
we still don’t know which side the Milledge deal will come down on.
Milledge is looking really good, but guess what, so are Church and Schneider. Anytime you can get 2 right away starters for a competing team for 1 potential starter, you have to make that trade.
just pointing out that evaluating that trade as good or bad depends on a lot of things down the road a ways.
Every trade is not going to work out for both teams. I try not to dwell on players traded away. The only time they bother me is if they contribute directly to defeating the Mets, which someone like Brian Bannister is unlikely to do anytime soon. Now if Bell gets a key hold, or Milledge drives in a key run against the Mets, for that game, it bothers me. But usually there’s a game the next night and that bother is gone.
Plus I think you HAVE to make some trades that don’t work out for you, otherwise no one will want to trade with you, fearing your “magic touch.”
I agree in principle but Maine and Perez were throw ins on deals not the foucs of those deals. In any event, as a fan , I hope the good deals outweigh the bad ones but the Bannister trade bothered me becuase he seemed like the type of guy who would be successful even without the “stuff” as you put it. All we got from that deal was another guy who threw hard and had limited control, like Zambrano for Kazmir. Meanwhil ewe gave away a “pitcher.”
I don’t think they were Throw-Ins. That’s like saying that if we had added Fernando Martinez to the Santana deal, he would have been a throw-in. I believe Omar wanted Perez and Maine more than Julio and Roberto Hernandez.
Seriously, is this guy kidding? It isnt like Omar stuck his hand in a bag and pulled out Oliver Perez’s name. He wanted Perez and Maine and got them for nothing, and now they are two legit MLB starters in their mid 20’s and improving. Maine improving rapidly. We got them for nobodyy. Omar takes so much crap its crazy. I think a lot of it is from the younger teenage kids that dont really remember that the end of the Phillips tenure and the entire Duquette tenure they were a joke. A humongous mess. They were like the Knicks are right now. A year afer Omar came in they were back over 500, the next year they ran away with the NL in the regular season, and last year it took and epic collapse to lose the division.
While I’m a supporter of Omar, I don’t buy the notion that taking over a team in a bad situation and making them better makes a GM a genius. If you look at the Mets of 2003, they were so bad, that they had nowhere to go but up. On the contrary, let’s say Theo Epstein quits his Red Sox job right now. Whoever replaces him will have quite a chore in front of him in order to match Epstein’s tenure.
common misconception. Maine and Ollie were the centerpiece of both deals.
I disagree. Go back a review the comments at the time. Perez was a wash out, “ruined” by the Pirates and Maine was a nobody from the comments. I remember saying on this site that because I live near Baltimore I had heard a bunch about Maine in the O’s minor system, and Maine could turn out to be a steal because he had been at one time rated well by the O’s but they had given up on him for some reason. I am not buying that either were in any way “center pieces.” No chance on that.
to me, them being throw-ins only enhances the quality of the deal.. the throw-ins are where a GM makes his money, being able to pickout the change of scenery guys, the guys you can help, the ones no one else has heard of, that’s the skill here.
Maine sounds like Milledge.
Of course some trades work out and some don’t, but that doesn’t mean some aren’t better/ worse than others. Yes, the jury is out on these trades, but on the whole, it looks like the best trades had a lot of luck to them.
It’s not just Omar, either. Note that scouting, player development, etc. factor into the success/failure of these deals. Yeah, it’s his regime, but I’m sure he inherited much of the FO.
They were the centerpieces. the comments on metsblog have nothing to do with it. Omar has been on record saying that he was chasing Maine and Ollie for quite some time. He had to take salary back to get Maine for Benson (julio). Pitt was asking for Nady straight up for Ollie and Omar thought that was too much to give up. After the cab accident, he realized that he needed another back of the bullpen arm and told pitt they would have a deal if they threw in hernandez.
these are well known stories. just because you haven’t heard of them, doesn’t mean they were throw ins.
False. They were not the centerpieces. That’s fiction. At least in Maine’s case.
Maine was a throw-in.
It’s also hard to think Ollie was the centerpiece of the Nady deal when Omar tried to trade him for Linebrink right after the trade. But the Padres turned it down.
Again. Omar was lucky there. And there’s nothing wrong with that. It takes luck for GM’s to succeed as well as smarts.
It’s not so much that they were the Centerpieces of the deals, because lets face it, they weren’t. But the idea that they were throw-ins is also false. Minaya clearly targeted those specific players and wouldn’t have pulled the trigger on those deals without those players involved.
I’m not so sure of that in the case of Maine. It was widely reported that Omar had long been enamored of Julio. If not for the criticism in the media, he may have done Julio for Benson straight up. That’s what Olney’s story says.
Olney isn’t exactly the most ethical reporter. 75% odds that he made that up just to make his previous reports of the Benson/Julio talks look fully correct when it wasn’t.
I seem to remember Minaya on WFAN saying to watch out for Maine and that they think very highly of him when the deal was made. That’s not something you say about a throw-in.
I’m 99.99% sure he didn’t make that up. He has no record of making things up. If you think he does, give one single incident and back it up.
And what previous reports? Unless you can show some previous reports in which he said the same thing, then you’re just throwing things out there.
And why wouldn’t a GM praise every single player he traded for? There is no reason not to. It makes no sense to hold back praise for any player you trade for. What is he supposed to say? (”Oh, Julio was the guy we really wanted but when we heard you guys bash us for just getting him back we went to Jim and said — hey give us another guy — and so he threw in Maine who we think has potential. But we don’t know how much.”)
OP was definitely a throw in in that deal. What was Minaya’s motivation for making the deal??? It was to acquire a reliever for the stretch run, not to acquire a potential washed up starter for the next 2 years.
True. I believe it was “I need more then Julio in return. Maybe you can throw in this Maine kid you have.” Same in his deal that got Perez. Though they were not the centerpieces, Omar did make a point to get them included in the deals.
here’s some faulty logic 101:
vcarver says that Perez obviously wasn’t the centerpiece, because he tried to turn around and trade him for linebrink, even though it was reported that Minaya long-sought Perez
he then says, 2 posts later, that Maine was obviously a throw-in because Minaya had long-sought Julio…who he turned around and traded a week into the season.
Why is it faulty logic? Did Omar try to trade Julio right after he got him?
No. But he did try to trade Ollie.
In Ollie’s case, I know it as fact that Rick Peterson asked for him by name as the throw-in. Take that however you want it.
As for Olney (who claimed Maine was thrown in because it looked bad that Julio for Benson was too little), I see someone says he doesn’t make stuff up. I’m laughing to myself, meanwhile. I do hear things through the grapevine, and I’d say of any columnist, Olney is probably the absolute worst at making stuff up. He’s a habitual liar who has been “unofficially banned” (as in, the players just give him a run-around and don’t tell him anything about trade talks) from several MLB clubhouses. Ever wonder why he kept going back and idly speculating about the Oakland A’s, for example, and was literally wrong with every single rumor starting, oh, around 2006?
I said he doesn’t make things up. If you think he does, name one incident where he made it up and give a link to support it. Just one. I mean, if he has such a rep, it should be easy to find, right?
And I’m not talking about instances where he reports rumors/buzz (as Matt does sometimes). It’s different to say “An executive of a ML club told me that Omar is interested in trading for Julio.” … and “Omar called the Orioles to ask about Julio.”
“If you think he does, name one incident where he made it up and give a link to support it. Just one. I mean, if he has such a rep, it should be easy to find, right?”
Danny Haren and Santiago Casilla for Aaron Heilman, Lastings Milledge, and I don’t remember if it was Mike Pelfrey or Philip Humber. Google that one. Or better yet, look it up on Tim Dierkes’ mlbtraderumors.com. At one point, Olney announced the trade as having been completed and posted it on MLB.com. Both the A’s and the Mets denied 1) ever having talked about Santiago Casilla and 2) ever having talked about Pelfrey or Humber. The A’s denied ever having put Haren on the table. The Mets said they wanted him, but the only two pitchers the A’s were willing to give up were Joe Blanton and Rich Harden.
I don’t have a link saying “Buster Olney is a liar” in that many words, however, I know enough people in the right places to know he darn well is. Further, if you find the ESPN link (which is still accessable through Dierkes’ website, though may be dead by now) and then look at the statements made by both teams in reaction to when he posted it, I don’t see how on earth you could reach any other conclusion. I’m actually not going to get into a debate as far as Omar’s trades go…but I will darn well keep going at it with you that Olney cannot bring himself to tell the truth most of the time.
‘Scuse me, he posted it on ESPN.com, sorry.
Oh, and another Olney rumor…remember the monster three way trade he somehow came up with that involved the Mets, A’s, and Twins? Do you happen to recall not even any particular team’s response to that, but Billy Beane’s personal response to that? I don’t have the exact link, but it is out there. Google it. He was supposedly laughing like heck at the mere thought of such a trade happening.
Sorry, I’m not going to do your homework for you. You give me a link that proves your point.
And If Olney reports a trade rumor as such (being only a trade rumor) that’s different than reporting a trade is done. I hope you know the difference.
Matt reports a lot of buzz on this site, but he identifies it as such and qualifies his statements. I’m sure Olney qualifies all his statements when necessary.
Also, if he has such a rep for making things up, it should be easy to find the actual articles. Because they should be voluminous, right?
Also, how can Olney post things on mlb.com? He doesn’t even work for them.
In addition, it is pretty low of you to accuse Olney of making things up without backing up your claims.
And I am no Olney fan. He’s a biased Yankee shill. But he doesn’t make things up just for the hell of it. Few reporters do.
Further, IIRC, the 3-way trade rumor that was unfounded did not come from Olney or any established reporter for that matter. Rather, mlbtraderumors was tricked somehow into reporting it. They are the ones with egg on their faces.
“Also, how can Olney post things on mlb.com? He doesn’t even work for them.”
Did you even bother to note my correction?
“In addition, it is pretty low of you to accuse Olney of making things up without backing up your claims. ”
What if I told you I was far closer to Olney than you? One degree of seperation. And that these things don’t have to be linked on the internet? I have a very good friend who works in the Minnesota Twins organization in the scouting department (first name Scott…as a rule, I can’t tell you what his last name is, but I’ll give you the initial…”S”…should be easy enough for you to find a list of the Twins scouting staff if you don’t believe me) who is extremely angry at Olney for twisting his personal opinion into something that would definitely happen.
Shame on you, Neccia. I don’t know who you are, but it seems you have an agenda against Olney. And your own integrity is as bad as what you claim Olney’s to be.
For example, you say the fake 3-way rumor emanated from Olney. But the owner of mlbtraderumors was the one who initially reported the false rumor and he later admitted he was duped and apologized for it. Here is what he said on the matter:
“Billy Beane, who rarely comments on trade rumors, actually went out of his way to call mine below a “total fabrication.” I guess I should be proud, right? It sounds like I was the victim of an elaborate hoax/impersonated sportswriter. If so I apologize - not sure why someone would go to such lengths, but lesson learned.”
Neccia, I’m not even pretending to be close to Olney. All I’m asking is for you to support your claim.
I already proved your claim that the 3-way came from Olney is FALSE.
And if Olney has such a rep, surely you can find one instance of it on the internet — just one article where he claimed something to be so and it wasn’t.
And surely if Olney twisted something out of proportion in terms of what your friend says, you would be able to find a reference to it on the internet.
I can’t believe anything you say without any proof. And the fact you can’t give any totally undermines your position.
I AM wrong about the three team trade and sorry about that. I thought that was Buster’s idea and am wrong. I don’t want to give him blame for anything he didn’t do.
But all right, believe whatever the hell you want. However, rationalize this if you can…why the heck would I blatantly attack Olney on my favorite website with a total lack of proof? I have proof. In fact, I have a link to the 2008 Minnesota Twins scouting staff from mlb.com with my friend’s name on it…and his home address, and his phone number. You want his real name (Which by the way is not Scott S, though that is the name of his assistant. I’ve heard too much about identity theft on the internet to give it out)? Okay. Email me. Delete the word NOSPAM. I’ll relate in detail my friend’s interaction with Olney.
Incidentally, did the previous post actually have my email addy on my name? It’s not showing up. Dalkowski110@NOSPAMmsn.com. Delete the word “NOSPAM.”
Ok, and sorry I did miss your correction about mlb.com.
No I don’t want your friend’s name. I want you to point me to the exact article where Olney made up something regarding what your friend told him.
Or at the very least, what exactly did Olney say that was incorrect? Surely you can give that info here.
And again there is a difference between saying something happened without qualification and merely speculating on the future which is perhaps what Olney was doing with the information given to him by your friend. But your insistence on keeping everything in the dark, makes it hard to tell if perhaps you just don’t know the difference.
Neccia — I just sent you an email.
I hope this is juicy!
Email sent.
don’t forget, the mets tried to turn perez around that same day & trade hime for scott linebrink (wow that would have sucked!!!)
Maine and Perez weren’t the focus of their respective deals, but that doesn’t mean Omar didn’t target them anyway.
Particularly in the case of the Ollie deal, the Mets were totally over a barrel, needed relief pitching, everyone knew it–and they were still able to get a top-notch pitcher as a throw-in.
Maine was a throw-in.
The trade as originally leaked was merely Benson for Julio. That drew a lot of criticism in the media. Then all was quiet for a month or two. Finally we hear it’s Benson for Julio and Maine.
Afterward, Olney reported that Omar went back to ask for more after getting criticized in the media for Julio-Benson straight up.
However, give Omar credit for asking for the right throw-in. He was lucky with Maine. All GMs are lucky sometimes. You get lucky by dodging bullets (such as Zito) too. You have to be lucky and good to succeed as a GM!
You’re basing your opinion on the matter from a “leak”?
It was also leaked that Fernando Martinez was essential for any Johan trade…
No, I’m not basing my “opinion” on a leak. I’m reporting what Olney reported as hard news.
It was never reported as anything but a rumor (if at all) that F-Mart was essential for a Johan trade.
Do you know the difference between rumor and fact?
I do.
Show me the quote where Omar said he had to ask for more from Baltimore because of media pressure.
and in quote, i mean OMAR’S quote
It’s not a quote from Omar. It was reporting by Olney. He stated it as a fact (not a rumor). No one ever reported that the Twins were demanding F-Mart.
Ok, i think you are the one confused between rumor and fact.
You stated above:
“The trade as originally leaked was merely Benson for Julio. That drew a lot of criticism in the media. Then all was quiet for a month or two”
This, my fellow met fan, is a RUMOR. A trade proposal leaked through the media is a RUMOR.
Please send the link of Olney’s “reporting”….
One other thing:
Reporting “hard news” is a definitive quotation or FACT from an organization.
The only thing Olney was doing was (accurately) speculating on why the deal was being put on hold
vcarver, your story is completely inaccurate, but I like that you are basing your argument on omar’s reaction to a leak 2 and a half hears ago which was reported by buster olney who is known for making up stories just to fill out a column (johan to the red sox is a done deal anyone??)
No, roach, the “news” was Olney reporting after the deal was done that Omar asked for Maine as a throw-in after he originally asked for just Julio. I’m not saying the original leak was the news. Here’s what Olney said after the trade:
Maine, 25, was stalled in his progress with the Orioles, pitching 10 games for Baltimore last season and compiling a 6.30 ERA. He was not part of the conversation when the Orioles and Mets began discussing a trade of right-hander Kris Benson for reliever Jorge Julio. When word leaked out of the proposed deal, however, the Mets were criticized for not getting enough, and so they then asked for Maine in addition.
And mackey, you’re the one with the inaccurate story.
And no, Olney is not known for making up stories. He’s known for his pro-Yankee bias. But not for fabricating stories.
Re: Olney…see my above post. He makes stuff up to fill his quotas and that was one of ‘em. I’ve never taken anything he’s said seriously since about late ‘05-early ‘06.
Re: see my reply above. . Prove it. If he makes things up, there would be instances of it on the internet. Or it would be referenced on the internet. Give a link that supports your claim.
I am with you. Down here in Baltimore maine was called a throw inas well. The deal was for power relief arms of which Omar was enamored. Remember he used to say he liked to build from the back - forward, meaning get a closer then add power arms. Maine was another mid level prospect that’s it. That same philosphy from Omar is why Bannister is on the Royals and Burgos (the power arm reliever) is in therapy.
Amen. I do think Mets fans tend to be snake bitten about bad trades, though. All you have to say is:
Kazmir
Dykstra
Seaver
Ryan
Otis
to get a rise out of most of us.
Hernandez for Ownbey and Allen
Cone for Hearn
Olerud for Person
To name 3 of many great lopsided trades in Mets history.
Those trades sucked big time.
Piazza for Wilson, Yarnall, and Goetz
Leiter for Burnett, Sanchez, and Stratton
Alomar for Esco….wait, let’s not include that one.
I agree Matt, just like a game you win some you lose some. Every trade isn’t going to work out thats just the way it is. Overall I think Minaya has done a great job.
Anyone realzing that re-acquiring Pagan in an under-the-wire offseason deal may turn out to be a steal too? I love everything I see and hear from this kid.
I like him too thus far. The question is, what happens to him when Alou comes back?
I think between resting Alou and spot starts in RF he’ll get plenty of ABs. Chavez will be impacted more as he’s probably going to end up the 5th OF, not 4th.
I think Brady Clark will be release and they will keep Pagan on the bench. Pagan could be a very valuable asset as the fifth OF and as a PH.
Nothing happens to Pagan. Beltran and Alou will still need their rest. Brady Clark, however, will probably lose his job.
I think even thinking about that right now is an exercise in futility. He had one good series. I like him too, but we can cross that bridge when we get there.
At the time, the Mets had a lot of starting pitching depth (Pelfrey, Humber, Guerra, Williams, etc) and Bannister was a back of the rotation starter. Also, the bullpen depth was a little thin (Sanchez injured, Mota suspended, etc). So at that point in time, there was more of a need for a shutdown reliever than a back of the rotation starter. Nobody expected Bannister to do as well as he did, and nobody expected Burgos to blow his elbow out.
all things very true.
No, you couldn’t count on Guerra for 2007. That doesn’t make sense. And Williams was coming off of surgery. All you really had were two unprovens — Humber and Pelfrey.
I don’t think the Mets had enough starting pitching depth to go around trading Bannister for someone as risky as Burgos. It was a bad trade. .
And a lot of us said so at the time. I couldn’t really figure it out, and assumed Burgos must be a stud. . . . We’ll see, but the arm problems don’t bode well.
At the time of the trade Bannister had fallen behind guys like Pelfrey and Humber…FACT
at the time of the trade Omar realized Duaner and Padilla would not be ready…FACT
next you are gonna tell us all how great Heath Bell pitched for the mets in his 23 call ups, I cant even recall one outing where that fat blob didnt let up at least one run as a Met, and what about all those starts Bannister made between April 6th and September for the Mets.
What do you mean “fallen behind?”
Give a link that says this or it is not a fact but just your opinion.
And even if someone made that decision (which I’m not conceding) it doesn’t justify a bonehead decision. If he did fall behind those 2 then it’s an indication of lousy thinking.
And no. Heath Bell pitched lousy for the Mets when he was given opportunity — something that Bannister was NOT given. That is a FACT.
In Bannister, we saw a young pitcher with a penchant for pitching out of trouble when he didn’t have his best stuff — that sort of veteran savvy in such a young player astounded me. What’s more rushing Pelfrey and Humber past a more mature Bannister is part of the problem. Don’t know that it was Omar, but if you don’t blame him for those sorts of decisions, don’t give him full credit for finding Maine. These are all scouting decisions on which he makes a final call — essentially, chooses to accept the advice, or doesn’t.
Anyway, I don’t see any use in constantly yammering about the Bannister trade, but it is valuable data when you’re trying to evaluate the body of work of the Omar regime.
TMU, agreed. If in fact the Mets made the decision to put Pelfrey and Humber ahead of Bannister and that’s why they traded him, then that IS the problem. It in no way excuses a bad trade. It’s all part of talent evaluation.
To be fair….while the trade looks bad and will still look bad even if Burgos becomes a part of the back of the pen for us next season….the fact remains that outside of a very solid spring training and a handful of starts….Bannister seemed very pedestrian. Nothing about his minor league experience was exceptional at any level really.
He does not throw exceptionally hard or have a devastating out pitch (changeup or sweeping curve). He was also always in and out of trouble when he did pitch in real games.
To sum up, he appeared like a #5 starter who did not have a huge upside. Turns out Omar and others to this point have been wrong. but what is really the bigger suprise…that Bannister pitched to a 3.8 something Era last year or that Burgos at now age 21 is a post tommy john candidate who may never have a career in the bigs?
GWG — when you say things like “pedestrian” that is the type of judgment which many of us think is precisely the problem here.
If Omar thought Bannister was “pedestrian” despite the fact he was a very cerebral pitcher who showed a knack for getting out of jams as TMU referred to (if Pelfrey only had that knack!) and showed a great adaptability to learning new pitches and honing them (if Pelfrey only had that knack!) and showed a great composure on the mound (again, if only Pelfrey had that!) as well as having a great pedigree (something you should never discount) then there’s something wrong with talent evaluation there.
And Bannister’s numbers in the minors were very solid (except for 1 year at St. Lucie when he was learning new pitches) and some projected him to be a middle of the rotation starter.
And it’s no surprise that Bannister pitched to a 3.80 ERA his rookie year OR Burgos came up with arm problems. Read the column at the link below if you think Burgos’ arm problems were not anticipated:
thesoulofbaseball.blogspot.com/2007/02/ambiorix-alert.html
It was written months before he had TJ surgery.
How had Bannister been passed by when he actually made the big club and pitched? Rememebr he pulled a hammy running the bases because he could actually hit too.
What cares about Bannister, Royals, and AL….Trades are trades, and let’s move on with this one particular lopsided trade by Omar.
For everyone yelling about Bannister, they need to also give Minaya credit for not caving in to Zito’s demands. A seven-year deal for that has-been? At least Minaya saw through that one, despite the pleas to trade Milledge at the time.
Let’s face it, no GM is a perfect fortune teller - you win some and you lose some. Overall, getting Beltran, Pedro, and Johann, plus Maine, El Duque, and OP, while passing on Zito is pretty close to an “A” in my book. Don’t forget where we were in the pre-Omar days.
Amen
at least omar is working with a philosophy. they are not random trades. he’s looking to trade older talent (late 20’s) for younger talent gathering chips for fututre trades or who may strike lightning in a bottle. nobody liked when julio cames aboard, but he landed el duque and maine.
omar believed that lindstrom, bell, and bannister would not make the team and their value was to acquire much younger talent. let’s see what that younger talent does and is traded for before we go too crazy. obviously the bannister trade is a bad one, but he was 27 coming off an injury-plagued year with what seemed to be mediocre stuff. clearly he has something from the neck up that makes that irrelevant.
on the bright side the mets are developing better players than they’re given credit for including milledge and gomez to the previously mentoned
Burgos is really young. Yeah, he wasn’t that effective, but he was also pitcing with a wobly elbow that required surgery. There is still a ton of upside when considering his age and the nasty dominating stuff he has. Burgos was really really raw. I understand the reasons Omar traded Bannister for Burgos and at that time it made alot of sense.
Due to Burgos’ age, 24 in April, I’m not willing to write that trade off as a bust just yet. I’m going to be a bit more patient, let Burgos rehab and get back into game shape, and then evaluate that trade a year or two from now.
Exactly.
The question will be if Burgos comes back with heat, given that’s his game. He may never amount to much if he can’t throw hard after the surgery, but it’d be unfair to blame Minaya for that - Bannister’s already missed a half season to injury, so there’s no guarantee he’s going to be making 30+ starts a season for years.
To this day, it still amazes that Banniser is doing as well as he is in that division, especially when you look at his K and K:BB ratios, and given the kind of “stuff” he has, he’s like the anti-Heath Bell. But hey, the guys’ always been known more for his ceberal talents rather than physical ones, so you tip your hat, hope Burgos comes back from TJ successfully and you get something to show for it. If not, it’s a lost deal and pining and harping over it isn’t going to change anything.
I think we’ve moved beyond the “Minaya doesn’t get enough flak” argument on this board. I think both Matt, his team and a number of posters who were very pro Mets FO a year ago (myself included) have tempered their enthusiasm since last Sept. Anyone who’s still posting in this comments section demanding some kind of accountability for the Bannister, or any other trade, is just trying to make a name for themselves and stir up trouble. We get it, Bannister turned out to be good, and to this point, we’ve gotten nothing out of Burgos.
Off topic, but anyone know the timetable on Castro and Alou’s return?
Mid month, late month? I’d love to get those sticks back in the mix of things.
Why? Pagan and Schneider hitting .400 not enough for you so far??
I kid, I kid.
Glad you kid because I’m not even gonna respond to that one.
I like what I am seeing in response to Matt’s post. People are being realistic and not throwing Omar under the bus. Bannister looked solid in his starts in 2006, but certainly did not set the world on fire. At the time of the trade, Burgos was one that we all knew would need some real development. The fact that he had the TJ surgery just delays that.
I still can’t kill Omar for the Heath Bell trade— the fact is, Bell was not that good for us, and he had received ample opportunities to disprove that notion. Perhaps he needed that “change of scenery.”
In terms of the “under the radar” players signed this offseason that I am watching closely– Pagan is definitely one of them. You get the sense, like Endy, that he may be maturing into understanding his role and strengths and weaknesses (remember that Endy, before he came here, wanted to hit a HR every at bat). Pagan seems to have a solid approach to the plate and doesn’t try and do too much. Church may also fall into this category, but he has a bit more pressure on him because of who he was traded for. We also should watch Figueroa, because sometimes these great stories actually have great endings. If he doesn’t actually fill in a rotation spot, his curve looked like it had a lot of movement out there and I wouldn’t be surprised if he could be a bullpen arm for us.
On first glance, Figueroa looks like he has the kind of stuff that will baffle a line-up the first time through, a la a Dave Williams. in 2006. He makes me nervous as a long-time starter, but I’m comfortable with him getting a handful of starts, and I think he could fit into the bullpen down the line. I also like that he throws his breaking stuff inside. In general the pitchers are throwing more inside (Schneider anyone?).
Could well be Schneider.
The other thing I love about Schneider is he sets up with his glove where the ball should start out, not where it will end up, so the pitcher doesn’t have to account for the break of the ball because he will. Sometimes he sets up way way outside, so far you’re surprised when it’s called strike on the corner.
I also noticed the commentators talking last night about him setting up inside sometimes on offspeed pitches and how that can confuse hitters because most catchers only set up inside for heat.
This Milledge for Schneider & Church trade must be evaluated on so many different levels. Schneider’s game calling and defense are just two of them. To this day, I like the trade because of holes filled by the Mets and team chemistry.
There is no way to predict that if Bannister was still on the Mets that he would pitch as well as he has in KC. Sometimes a trade ends up looking bad because the player performs better because of the change of scenery/coaches. How many times do you hear during the trade deadline that this player has struggled all he might need is a change of scenery. NY is alot harder to pitch in than KC so you can’t say Bannister would have the same success as he has if he stayed. Nobody could have predicted Burgos was going to get hurt and be out the year, if he comes back and learns how to control his heater, he could be a solid bullpen if not closer for us in the future, he’s young, you can’t say this trade was a bust yet. Give Burgos time to get healthy and if he comes back and has a couple bad years and the mets drop him or trade him than at that time you can call this trade a bust.
… you can’t say Bannister would have the same success as he has if he stayed.
You’re right. He might have had more. Pitching without the DH in a pitchers park with the Mets is easier than in KC in the AL Central.
Nobody could have predicted Burgos was going to get hurt and be out the year
Oh no? Tha’t precisely what a baseball writer did in February of 07 when he said of Burgos’ bullpen session:
By the way, what kind of goof throws the ball 100 mph before the end of February? I’m not crazy, right? Isn’t this like walking up to a doctor and saying, “Hey, would you mind cutting my ulnar collateral ligament? Thanks.
Read the rest of his column. It’s precisely why I wouldn’t have made a Bannister-Burgos deal. Here’s the link:
thesoulofbaseball.blogspot.com/2007/02/ambiorix-alert.html
are you related to Brian Bannister? what’s your deal?
JUST LET IT GO
I didn’t bring it up. I didn’t email Matt. But once it was brought up by Matt, then I simply commented on it. Why do you have a problem with that?
Too bad more of you are not Islanders fans. If your team had traded away Roberto Luongo, Zdeno Chara, Bryan Berard, Bryan McCabe, Wade Redden, Erice Brewer, Raffi Torres, Olli Jokinen, Todd Bertuzzi, Tim Connolly, and the pick that become Jason Spezza, while never suiting a single on of them up for a playoff game, you might have more persective on the occasional Bannister-Burgos hiccup!
People still follow hockey?
Yeah seriously….I don’t even consider hockey a sport. It’s terrible.
better question… the islanders are still a team?
you might as well be naming cheeses, that’s how little i care about hockey.
Nice.
I love a good aged Zdeno Chara — great with pasta.
Thats baseball you win some and lose some.For the most part the reasoning behind omars trades are understandable. As koo aluded to earlier at the time bannister was traded, we had a abundance of SP. Omar tried to anchor the bullpen but who can predict injury. When sanchez went down as unfortunate as it was we gave up nady for one time good pitcher in ollie and sort of reliable hernandez. I do not think we will see another Kasmir trade under omars reign.
Lets be honest people.
Maine WAS a throw in. The original trade was Julio for Benson and public reaction was poor. Omar revisited the deal later and got the O’s to throw Maine in.
Like others have mentioned, the only reason Perez is on the Mets is because Duaner got into that cab and a reliever was needed immediately.
The Pirates dumped his salary on the Mets and Omar was going to turn him around that day along with Heath Bell to the Padres for Scott Linebrink.
No way, no how is Perez on the Mets because Omar targeted him.
For me, the Burgos trade is troubling because he was largely a failure in KC and was considered to be wild and a project. Bannister may not have been phenominal but he was a solid back of rotation guy.
Omar has had some good trades but alot of his success has come spending Wilpon’s money, not through trades.
fair and balanced
Good point. Alot of omars big impact moves was through FA.
thank you. but some people on this site don’t want to hear facts.
I agree with you to a certain extent though as a fan I care more about the results than the what ifs. Whether it was by luck or circumstance, the acquisitions of Maine and Perez have helped solidified our rotation the past two years. That’s a good thing. Was Omar that smart or that lucky? You got to look at his other moves. Obviously the trades he made last year were a bust, but I think he made a number of small under the radar moves in ‘06 that helped complete the team in a positive way. Bringing Feliciano on a minor league deal back over from Japan. Taking a chance on Darren Oliver and Jose Valentin. Picking up a non-tendered Endy Chavez.
At the end of the day, Omar is not nearly as good as some make him out to be and not nearly as bad. And when you look at the track records of other revered GMs around the game, I can’t see how you can make a dramatically different argument with them….
1st off , Omar insisted that Maine be included in the deal. Otherwise there wouldn’t have been a deal. Public reaction was poor anyway
2nd off like I said below, Omar thought in Pelfrey and Humber he had prospects who could easily replace Bannister. So the took a chance and traded him for a 23 YEAR OLD PITCHER WHO THROWS 100 MPH. It was a great risk to take and its still too early to give up on Burgos.
As far as Linebrink goes, he was one of the top setup men in the game which was what Omar was trying to replace. Who is to say that Ollie would have the same success in SD as he did in NY?
this is the 2004 roster omar inherited:
1. glavine
2. trachsel
3. leiter (38)
4. seo
5. ginter
closer: looper
set-up: franco (43), bottalico, stanton
c phillips
1b piazza
2b reyes
ss matsui
3b zeile (later wright)
lf floyd
cf cameron
rf hidalgo
Player turnover is a fact of life. Look at virtually any other team’s regular lineup and tell me it’s not completely overhauled. Today’s top offensive threats were inherited or bought.
He deserves more credit with the pitching staff, but we’ve discussed Perez and Maine above, ad nauseum. The real centerpieces of his tenure have been the Santana deal (waiting out the Sox and Yankees), and not overpaying for Zito. Jury is out on the bullpen, after last year. And, of course, it’s tough to know what to say about Duaner.
you can’t deny that the roster is much better under omar. who cares how he got there. this idea that he was lucky with maine and ollie is silly. the teams have scouts. they don’t just throw in players
jesus, I forgot all about hidalgo
Yeah you’re right, that Santana trade was meaningless… all Omar can do is spend $$$
In my opinion, our trading record is fantastic. Most of the trades that have happened, had one team making out very well. Even if its not the Mets all the time, it allows other GMs to want to do business with us. Do you really think that if all the trades prior were completely lopsided in the Mets favor that any GM would want to do business with us? No way we would have gotten Santana if Bannsister, Bell, Nady, etc. all turned out to be dogs and Burgos, Vargas, etc. became superstars. You almost have to keep a balance of winning and losing in trades to keep that trading door open in the future. Just hopefully its more of a 60-40 trade ratio in our favor, which I believe it has been.
I agree that our record is good, but this isn’t like covering up cheating at the blackjack table. I’ve never heard of a GM being ‘afriad’ to deal with another because they’ve been successful in the past…
Well I believe thats mainly because no GM is perfect and we are thinking the fictionally that Omar would be perfect. But people like Billy Beane and Scott Boras (i know hes not a GM but i think it still applies) , both very successful, do have a certain stigma about them which probably makes them miss out on certain types deals.
I think Pagan can be a nice surprise and he’s a good little player, but I do think him being in the lineup every day will eventually lead to him getting exposed….which is where Alou comes in. That said, he’s not a bad player to back up or platoon with Alou.
Church, who I saw very little of last year is impressing me so far. He has a great swing….and obviously he has power. Little too agressive at the plate sometimes, but so far he’s shown good contact, and hes got a cannon for an arm.
Lets hope he stays in there and hits consistantly. If he can knock out 25 / 90 that would be a hell of a job from the 7 hole.
Sidenote: The Mets “New York” road grays are my favorite jersey the team has. (I don’t count the pinstripes and sunday blue caps because they are worn so infrequently).
Point is…..road grays, home whites, Sunday stripes.
TAKE THOSE DISGSUTING BLACKTOP UNI’S AND DONATE THEM TO THE SALVATION ARMY. They are soooo ugly.
Reminds me of AA ball, or batting practice uni’s.
I prefer the stripes to the whites, but otherwise, I hear you. I grudgingly admit that the snow whites look pretty darn good. The traditionalist in me wants to see more of the pinstripes, though.
The road black jersey may be the ugliest in baseball, and that’s saying something, what with the A’s black jerseys, the Rockies, and anything the Blue Jays embarrass themselves with.
And yeah, I get it, no one cares what they wear as long as they win, blah, blah, blah. But heed Seinfeld — we’re really rooting for clothing.
you must’ve missed the Braves jerseys on sunday nite.
easily the ugliest unis in the history of baseball.
Call me crazy, but . . . I didn’t mind them as much as others. I agree with Paul Lukas that you shouldn’t be debuting them on Opening Day when someone else is introducing their new ballpark, but, whatever. In the grand scheme, I dislike essentially all of the non white/grey alternates, but some are worse than others, including, unfortunately, ours. The Rockies’ black on black vest thingy with the purple arm loops has to be the worst — looks like something out of Futurama. There are some horrible jerseys out there, but at least those weird Nets tie-dyed unis will never migrate over to baseball.
I’ve never understood the Bannister trade,and probabaly won’t ever understand it. It’s done though and now Pedro is hurt.
So I’m now hollering at the tv “Go get’em Fig!!!!”
I am sick and tired too of hearing about the Bannister deal. Dontcha think..just think that Omar thought both Pelfrey and Humber would have been better than him? And so Omar has the chance to trade a replaceable starter for a 23 year old that throws 100 MPH. Bad bad Omar. You should be ashamed!!!
100 mph with limited control and marginal movemnet.
VCarver,
apparently in your way of thinking tjhat Omar shouldnt make trades our rotation should be as follows:
1. Pedro
2. Bannister
3. Humber
4. Pelfrey
5. Mulvey
and then we’d have 10K people show up at games like the Orioles, and we may challenge the 62 team.
i guess no one looked at bannister’s peripherals from last year. that’s an unsustainable strikeout rate, and his BABIP was .264. I doubt he will have as good of a year this year, but good for him that he’s pitching well somewhere else.
As I said above, he’s the anti Heath Bell, who based on his peripherals, people couldn’t understand why he wasn’t getting more people out. Whereas with Bannister you look at his numbers, consider the kind of arsenal he has, and you wonder how in the world a guy li ke that gets by in the AL Central strike out 4-5 guys per 9 IP and only allowing 154 hits. Maybe he continues to do this and becomes this generations right-handed version of Tom Glavine? But it’s still curious.
Bannister’s approach reminded me about an interview Glavine gave sometime in the last couple of years, in which he basically said if he’d come up in the game today, he probably wouldn’t have gotten a shot because his numbers weren’t typical of a successful major-league pitcher. And the two interviews I’ve read with Bannister also remind me of Glavine’s cerebral approach…I really hope he sustains his success, to weight the non-stat side of the modern argument of projectability.
It still isn’t as bad as the Kazmir trade. Even though I wouldn’t of done it, I could see the logic behind trading Bannister for a guy with the age and arm of Burgos. The Kazmir deal (I know Omar wasn’t involved) made no sense on so many levels, I still want blood.
i agree with the “wash” thought ….. but in this market u CANNOT trade a starting pitcher under 25yo with the slightest bit of potential, unless u get another SP in return …. u can never have enuff SP is the so called motto …. its still amazing to me that a small market team like the pirates gave up on perez at 25yo and making no money
Something needs to be corrected, here.
I don’t think Mets fans have problems with BAD trades, exactly. What they, or at least I, have a problem with is unnecessary trades.
The Heath Bell trade was bad, but that’s not what I have a problem with. Same story with the Lindstrom/Owens trade. It’s not that they were bad, but that they were VERY unnecessary. It almost seemed like the Mets were making a trade for the sake of making a trade.
Likewise with Bannister. With Pedro down, we had only 4 bona fide starters, including oft-injured El Duque. There was no reason to trade a possible starter (which we desperately needed) for an erratic bullpen arm.
heath bell was 29 years old. it woould have been disgusting for the mets to keep him in the minors knowing he could pitch in the major for another team. the guy has a family.
So by your logic, the Mets should trade players because it would be “disgusting” to keep them in the minors?
Wake up, man. It was an unnecessary trade. Especially since what we got in return didn’t have a chance to crack the big league roster either.
yes. if the player is 29 with no prospect on your mlb team…they 100% should be traded to have an opportunity to make a living. bell has 3 young children.
AND BECAUSE HE SUCKED AS A MET!!!!!
Baseball is a business as much as it is a sport, my friend. You don’t make trades because guys have 3 young children, as heartbreaking as that may be. And believe me, the pay minor leaguers get for playing a game is absolutely nothing to scoff at.
Your logic absolutely baffles me. I’m just very glad you don’t run this organization.
i don’t believe you. their salaries barely pay my property taxes.
The Major League Baseball office handles minor league contracts. It states:
“First contract season: $850/month maximum. After that, open to negotiation
Triple-A–First year: $2,150/month, after first year no less than $2,150/month
Class AA-First year: $1,500/month, after first year no less than $1,500/month
Class A (full season)–First year: $1,050/month, after first year no less than $1,050/month
Class A (short-season)–First year: $850/month, after first year no less than $850/month
Bell continually moved between triple A and the majors during his time with the Mets. $2,000 a month is not bad pay, and you also have to factor in the additional money the Mets paid him for pitching with the major league team. In addition, I don’t know where you get this idea that the guy is living on the streets, scrounging around for money, unable to feed his three starving children. I don’t think anybody playing AAA baseball, and occasionally appearing in the majors, is anywhere near the poorhouse.
The salary argument is ridiculous to begin with. There is absolutely no way to justify a trade based on how much a guy is getting paid, and how his family is doing. Do you think that when Omar is deciding which free agent to give a big contract to, he asks himself “Well, who needs the money more? Who has the bigger family?”? HECK NO. He gives the guy the contract based on the needs of the team and who has the most talent.
It was a pointless trade. That’s all there is to it.
have you tried to live in NY on $24,000 a year?
I’m living in Manhattan for less than $12,000 a year, thanks.
By the way, zen, I love how you cherry-picked those statistics, leaving out the ones that got in the way of your argument. Very classy. Here’s what you happened to leave out:
$316,000 is the major league minimum salary ($300,000 in 2004). The
minimum minor league salary for players who play on teams with 40
person rosters in their second year or who have played a day in the
major league is $52,600 ($50,000 in 2004).
Bell made a number of appearances in the majors, so he was making AT LEAST $50,000 a year.
Nice try, buddy.
“And believe me, the pay minor leaguers get for playing a game is absolutely nothing to scoff at.”
you were wrong. period.
Why don’t you go find some statistics to alter so that they make you look smart?
You’re an ignorant moron, who can’t justify his argument. Period.
name-calling. nice. i’m sure a world-class athlete should settle for 25K a year or even 50k a year at 29 years old. that’s pennies.
bell made $385,500 last year as a full-time major leaguer. glad he was freed to make a living on his great talent instead of rotting away in new orleans
Zen, are you the same guy who was defending Dusty Baker’s managerial skills? If so, I’m not surprised that you’re taking such a ridiculous stand on a topic that is all but debatable.
Name-calling is when negative names are used without warrant. Fortunately for me, I have every reason to call you what I did. Aside from cherry-picking information to your liking, you completely glossed over the fact that Heath Bell made 50k a year, contrary to what you initially thought. You refuse to accept the fact that you’re wrong, and that my friend is ignorance.
I’m honestly baffled by the fact that you’re arguing for the Heath Bell trade from a personal standpoint. Baseball decisions should not be made that way, and there’s a reason that most of the time they aren’t. It’s about necessity and talent, and the Bell trade was made for neither reason. The soon you accept that the better.
Answer me this: who would you rather have on your team right now, Jon Adkins or Heath Bell? Argument over.
i’ll pay you 50k clean up around my office building.
bell went from making 25k to 50k to making $385,500 after leaving the mets. he has a 5+era in his two years with the mets…it was time to move on.
That’s all “fine and dandy” (in the words of your good friend, Dusty Baker) but how much money Bell makes is a NON-ISSUE. And rightfully so.
I’m not here arguing about how much Bell makes or made, or whether that was satisfactory. Because that means absolutely nothing in the scheme of things. Those things don’t affect the Mets or the fan base at all. The fact that you’re trying to justify the trade using salary figures and family size is honestly unbelievable, and I feel stupider for having engaged in this debate with you, in which you’ve done nothing but split hairs and avoid the topic at hand.
I’m done. Really. Hit me with some more salary figures or something if you want to make yourself feel better.
Oh, and by the way, Adkins or Bell? Seems like you’re avoiding the question, yet again.
heath bell with mets
2006: 0-0 5.11era 37ip 51h 11bb
2005: 1-3 5.59era 46ip 56h 13bb
the offer stand if you want the job, by the way
Adkins or Bell? I’ll be here for awhile, so take your time.
adkins with padres
2006: 2-1 3.98era 54ip 55h 20bb
What year is it right now? I was under the impression it was 2008, not 2006.
Adkins or Bell? This is the 4th time
bell. are you taking the job to clean my office building? 3rd time.
Yes, if you’re going to pay me the ridiculously large sum of 50,000 dollars.
Finally. The fact that you dodged such a simple question, and a question that was at the heart of this entire argument when it started a thousand comments ago, tells me that deep down you know this was a bad trade. Finances aside, number of offspring aside, this was a trade that did not need to be done, for any reason. THAT is the point I’m trying to make.
I’m sorry if I offended you at all, but I can’t stand to argue with somebody who won’t answer the question at hand, and instead goes off in eight different directions about ridiculous things like family-size.
if you notice i didn’t include lindstrom, bannister, or owens in my comments. it was specific to bell who was 29 and had few prime years left. he was also terrible for the mets. there was no evidence that he would ever do it for the mets. he wasn’t going to make the roster in 2007
No, we traded Lindstrom and Owens to get starting pitching depth because we had, um, traded Bannister.
So in essence, we traded a starter for a reliever, and then because we didn’t have enough starters (because we TRADED a starter) we traded a pair of promising young relievers in order to get one back. Is that what you’re saying?
Seriously, where is the logic in that? Let me answer that for you guys: there is none. Which is precisely my problem.
That’s actually the point I was trying to make. I don’t remember the order of the two trades, but it was bad either way. We essentially exchanged Lidstrom and Owens for Burgos in the pen, and Bannister for Vargas in the rotation. In both cases, THUS FAR, we look to have lost out.
Very good point. Unnecessary is a good way to put it. One move too far.
I still think Burgos coudl be a good pitcher for us, if he can his speed back and improve his control. I felt at teh time of the trade he could evntually succeed Wagner as our closer.
murpheee …… nevermind i dont have a comment
thought u said u still think he could be a closer .. read your post wrong
Right now the Bannister trade is turning out to be a bad one. But the part that eats at me and I think most that don’t like the trade, is that he showed some promise in the big leages (albeit it was only one month) and then he never got another chance. And it was a hamstring injury not a arm problem. Bannister’s M.O. is not to blow one past the hitters but to be more like a Maddux & Glavine.
So though the hamstring was still important it wasn’t as crucial to his pitching like it is to Pedro’s. So what i’m trying to say is that if he was traded out of the system w/o any taste of the bigs (and some initial success) the backlash would not be as bad.
What do you all think?
I think the Mets have no clue what they’re doing when they evaluate young pitchers. They have about as much of an idea as we do, and that makes me nervous. You’d never see the Braves make a mistake like this.
Wolverine, you thought it was a mistake to trade Benson, so clearly Omar knows a little more than you do…and to this point Vargas has been as useful as henry owens,
and rmemeber the post above about how you cant trade a young SP for anythign less than a SP, well we got Vargas for 2 RP’s, so CLEALRY that trade was a win for the mets…oh wait..your logic has been shot.
The Bannister trade looks bad now, but I’m still sticking to my guns in projecting that Bannister tails off significantly.
The Bell trade wasn’t bad. He did nothing with us to warrant a spot on the roster, and we moved him. It’s unfortunate that he didn’t blossom until heading to SD, but as other have said, those things happen.
BTW, Burgos is still only 23, so it’s not as if he’s a lost cause.
Explain how getting Duaner Sanchez was a good trade…the guy hasn’t pitched in almost 2 years now.
I don’t think you can predict him getting into a car accident. It was a great trade, just sh.t luck
Because the guy we sent isn’t even in the majors?
Because we gave up the immortal Jae Seo for him, Who put up a 5.33 and a 8.14 ERA since that trade. Sanchez’s 2.60 ERA in 55.1 Innings alone is more valueable then Jae Seo was for his new teams, nevermind if they get more from Sanchez in the future. It was the classic sell high on a SP with mediocre stuff for a good reliever.
Ironically, that’s exactly what Minaya was hoping to repeat with the Bannister/Burgos deal. A Sell High SP with mediocre stuff for a reliever with upside.
because we only gave up Jae Seo…you sir are a moron, Duaner not pitching for 2 yeas has still been better than Seo…cmon now, dont write if you dont have the ability to think.
i would say the mets win the division last year with jae seo as an extra starter in the rotation. he probably would have been one or two games better than guys like vargas, park, and pelfrey.
and while we’re at it, how is mike cameron for xavier nady a good trade?
And if my uncle had tata’s he’d be my aunt.
What ridiculously speculative comment about a pitcher who had a +ERA of 56 last year. Who are you? Wallace Matthews?
You’re right, the Mets needed that extra starter with a 6 ERA to push them over the top last season.
Go back to sleep.
but wait a minute… we gave up Jae Seo (a starter) for Sanchez (a reliever)… that MUST have been a horrible trade then…
I honestly hope that’s not a backhanded reference to the Bannister trade.
Where is Bannister right now? Where is Seo?
Where is Burgos right now? Where is Sanchez?
Better luck next time, buddy.
seo had fairly good numbers last year outside of his HR’s allowed which killed him. he’d have fared much better in the NL at shea.
i guess we forgot how bad the 5th starters were last year already…but no fear, due to a lack of pitching depth once again, we’re going to see it again this year.
but hey, we got a month out of duaner sanchez for a guy who’d be the 4th best starter on the team right now. what a great trade…
OT: Phils off to another bad start, tee hee.
5-0 Nats!
this should make a met fan smile:
-Guzman doubled to deep right.
-Milledge reached on an infield single.
-Zimmerman reached on fielder’s choice to second, Guzman scored, Milledge out at second on 2nd baseman Utley’s throwing error.
-Kearns walked, Zimmerman to second.
-Boone singled to center, Zimmerman scored, Kearns to second.
-Belliard doubled to deep left center, Kearns and Boone scored.
-Lopez flied out to right.
-Flores doubled to left, Belliard scored.
-Bergmann struck out swinging.
milledge 2-2
sorry, but milledge and flores contributing to that doesn’t make me smile.
Christ you people act like we gave Reyes and Wright away to this team. Was Milledge going to make or break our team?
My problem with it is that we traded our top prospect when he was coming off a season derailed by injuries and his value was as low as it had ever been. There was no urgency to make the trade.
I “whined” about the Bannister trade when it happened and I think that earns me the right to “whine” about it now.
I didn’t see then and I don’t see now how trading a guy who appeared to be a solid innings eater of a pitcher for a guy who washed out on a garbage team as a reliever was a good move. We all heard about Burgos’ “stuff”. His live arm. His 100mph heat. I could understand us falling for that if he weren’t a clone for Benitez and Julio. We had made the same mistake twice before.
There is a lot of garbage racist nonsense about Latino players on this site. I’m on record as saying the whole team could be Latino, Chinese, Uzbekistani, I don’t care just win. But it should be noted that there have been several big, strong guys from Latin America who can throw the ball 95-100mph and keep getting jobs as relievers, but don’t know how to “pitch”. Benitez still doesn’t know how to pitch. He just throws the ball. My theory is that it is because most of the guys in Latin America go to baseball academies and don’t grow up playing the game in organized leagues learning game situations. Benitez, Julio and Burgos never learned an effective second pitch to confuse hitters. You can’t keep throwing straight fastballs to MLB hitters.
I too am getting tired of the stupid racist comments about omar and latino players. Omar has a obligation to put the best team he can on the field. He does not have the luxury of other small market teams that can rebuilding years and such. So what if the players omar brings happen to be latino, like 7 said they could be chineze…it just doesn matter. The mets need to win and if the best guy to do so just so happens to be latino to help us win then so be it.
I never liked Bannister. I thought of him as a young Steve Trachsel, with worse control.
You were obviously wrong.
Why, look at the young Steve Trax’s numbers.
That’s why you’re not a scout.
1996 Trax’s 3rd year 205 innings and a3.03 ERA. You are right, Bannister is not as good as a young Trax.
Bannister is just starting his second year. Let him complete his third year and then compare ERA+ (not ERA) and you might be able to say he is not as good.
Trax’ second year was putrid. I think Bannister will do better.
And even if Bannister is no better than a young Trachsel, then that is still more valuable than a burned-out young Benitez.
What has he proven? He’s won 13 games since last season. Suddenly that makes him great? Let him pitch for a few more seasons and then make an assessment.
I remember people complaining about the Jae Seo trade also and how’d that work out? Burgos hasn’t done anything but he’s still young, so why not take a risk on him? I’m sure next year Bannister will come back to earth.
He’s nothing more than barely a .500 pitcher.
Did anyone call Bannnister “great?” Where? I missed it.
I don’t think you always have to wait a few seasons before making an opinion about a trade. Sure it’s always possible Burgos eventually turns into a Mariano Rivera or a Wagner. But that’s as likely as Bannister turning into a Santana. In the meantime, as of now, the trade is a bust.
The fact that Bannister is a kid, in his second year playing for a bad team, and facing the most powerful offenses in baseball: Tigers, Indians, Yankees, Boston etc. and that he has a winning record is almost a miracle. Face it he is a savvy kid with enough pitches, and guts to win in the majors. What’s not to like?
You’re misunderstanding. I’m not saying Bannister is as good or as bad as anybody. I’m saying he had one good season, and that there is absolutely no sense in comparing him to other pitchers already, especially not Steve Trachsel.
Right now the trade is a bust, and that’s pretty much not debatable as of now.
I get to watch the Phillies get destroyed by the NATS!
They will be our biggest comp.
NOT the Phillies or Braves.
Don’t get ahead of yourself. The Phillies had a pretty crappy start last season too.
Very true, but it is always good to see them lose.
Ok jump on me for this one but I think it would be a smart move to check in on Dimitri Young. I know he is out of shape and has some health problems but he would be fine for the bench. The Nats are going to play Nick at 1B because of his defense. They like their OF and even it has a younger Dukes ready to step in when he comes of the DL. Young has no spot on the team except for an expensive bench player. That’s tough for the Nats. Young would fit in well here as a backup 1B and occasional OF. Then next season if no other options present themselves he can play 1B. It should not take much to get him at all.
Go ahead…..
I suggested this a few days ago and got jumped on.
If it were up to me, I’d wait about a month or two to see how Delgado progresses, and if continues the way he’s going, I’d trade for Young and start him at 1st. By then his back should be better, and he hits for a higher average than Carlos.
No need to start him in the begining. Go get him now and platoon them. Although Young is stronger from the left side he is still a good guy from the right as well.
Besides think about a tough righty in and having Delgado at 1st and Young in RF, Church in LF. They would bring in a LHP in the 3rd inning.
I hope the positive comments about Burgos turn out to be true, but it will be a ways off. He had Tommy John surgery, and will be gone all year. I doubt we see him even next year.
He is 23 now, and by the way was signed when he was 16 by the Royals. Has always been wild and erractic. Walks more than 10% of batters faced and throws a lot of wild pitches. Perhaps some shelf time helps him calm down and gain control.
all the trade talk got me thinking about those that didnt work out too well on our end… here are the poorest ones I remember
Worst Met Trades
Nolan Ryan – oh well
Seaver – again oh well. At least the guys we obtained tried to play. Hendu, Joel & Flynn were ok – they started for us for 3-4 seasons I think.
Kazmir – (thanks Johnny & Al) !
Randy Myers, Jeff Reardon & Aguilera – they all went on to rack up more than 300 saves. Frankie V had a good 1.5 seasons, but he wasn’t the savior we hoped for. Were Randy & Jeff traded or FA’s ?
Jeff Kent – this can easily be referred to as the Roberto trade b/c of how poorly the future HOF’r played and how indifferent he was about it.
Amos Otis – this was a true give away.
Dykstra - this can easily be referred to as the Juan Samual trade b/c of how poorly he played; just like Alomar he totally lost it.
Mookie – for jeff musselman ????
Mike Scott – was he traded for Danny Heep ? I liked Danny but Scott had 2-3 great years.
just remembered :
Rusty for Mickey Lolich. damn
bringing in Randy Jones from SD - no idea what we gave up
let’s not forget:
Billy Taylor, (half a season of junk for 5-6 great yrs of Izzy
Mike Bordick - he was barely an improvemt at SS; I think melvin approached 200 hits 3 times.
Tommy Herr, Ellis Valentine - injuries had taken their toll
You forgot the George Foster acquistion.
Remember the first $2M man. What a piece of crap that guy was. He is the only professional ball player that I can honestly say I booed.
All the talk about the mets making a bad trade in trading away bannister doesnt matter, because if he didnt get traded then he would have almost certainly been traded in the santana deal.
Now name some of the BEST trades in history.
Roger Cedeño & Octavio Dotel for Mike Hampton.
Good trade? No, great trade because when Hampton left we got a draft pick… it just happened to be David Wright.
One that is so often overlooked among the list of all time GREAT Mets trades was Tom Parsons to the Houston Colts for Jerry Grote. In Grote, you basically have the same TYPE guy as Brian Schneider, but who is also an even better fielder and who can contribute with the bat just a little bit more. And Parsons? Well, he went nowhere fast.
Top of the list should be Keith, then Piazza, then Santana
Carter, Cone, Darling/Terrell, El Sid, HoJo, Maine,
Yea thats true…I don’t think Mets fans should be complaining about bad trades right now because we traded for Johan freaking Santana this offseason without giving up one major league player.
If Santana leads us to a Championship, He should be above Piazza.
What about Cone in ‘87.
For me it has always been about trading away a young starter when it was obvious that we had an old rotation. I also think people have locked into this notion that a strong bullpen wins championships. I don’t think that is true. Any strength helps, and any weakness hurts, not necessarily at the same level, of course.
But starting pitching, in my opinion, should always be valued over relief pitching. Relief pitchers throw maybe 80 innings a year, while starters throw at least twice that. I didn’t like that trade even before Bannister had a good year.
22 year old johnny cueto perfect through 5 innings for the reds
Burgos = Julio = Benitez
Big dark hard throwing Relief guys who only know how to throw the ball really hard and crumble in a tough spot
One thing that often gets overlooked is options.
Everyoe moans (well, some people!) about losing Gotay, but it was because he was out of options, and didn’t have a spot on the team.
IIRC, Bell was out of options too, and since he wasn’t projected to make the team, he got traded instead of getting waived.
And in all the pitching deals that year, the Mets got younger players (aka prospects) for older guys they didn’t think they had room for.
I liked Bannister too, but at the time, Omar felt the team had more need for a power arm in the pen. And based on how last year ended, I think he was right!
Good point.
And to follow-up on the Bell point, hod did he perform with the Mets? He was horrible. He went to San Diego and had success. People act as if he was great during his time here. He wasn’t and the Padres got lucky. However, relievers have tendencies of being good one year and bad the next. It’s a crapshoot.
I don’t think that shuttle they put him on gave him much of a true shot, to be honest.