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In a post to Mets Geek, Jeff Mathews wonders if he should drink the Angel Pagan Kool-Aid.
Prior to Sunday’s game, Willie Randolph told reporters that Pagan will return to the bench when Moises Alou returns from the disabled list.
Naturally, Randolph downplayed Pagan’s performance this season, as he always seems to do when a young player does well in a short period of time, referring to him as a ‘back-up player,’ adding, “I hope he stays this way all year long.”
…for some reason, people care about this statement…i do not…since, i know so much could happen between now and the day alou returns, which includes the mystery of whether alou will ever return…i mean, maybe Ryan Church falls apart, maybe alou hurts himself again, maybe pagan hits 20 HR or strikes out every single at bat between now and May…who knows and who cares what willie says today, which, frankly, is simply stating the obvious, given the current dynamic of the team…that said, pagan is playing so well right now, it’s a great problem to have…and i hope he does so well he makes this situation as difficult as possible…and i believe he can…
…in other words, drink up, jeff…
For more on Pagan, check out Newsday, the Journal News, and the Bergen Record, all of whom provide more quotes from Randolph, as well as from Pagan.
what would Willie have said about Doc Gooden early in his career after one of his stellar outings?
“nice job, but I only favor guys who are too old and banged up”
Willie would have made a great coach of the Rangers in the ‘FatCat ‘Era of the mid 70’s
I wonder what he going to do when we have a rookie in LF next year and probably a rookie at 1B next year too. It’s the managers job to praise his players when they do well, not down play their success. I don’t understand why he does that, it’s no different in a boss for a company, you don’t want your boss to downplay your hard work, you want to be praised. I just don’t get it…
When Alou comes back, he should be given a 1B mitt. Playing first once in a while might cut back on his injury risk, and would increase playing time for Pagan when all four OFs are healthy. Plus, Alou is the only guy on the bench that hits well enough to play 1B for any extended period if Delgado gets hurt/slumps badly.
Considering he’s never played there in his life, you think it’s wise to start him there at age 40? Remember how bad of a train wreck Mike Piazza was there?
Agreed, and the last thing we need is a collision at 1B or him ruining his hamstring performing a stretch. While Delgado does have mental lapses and occasionally explodes in a bad way, he isn’t a completely terrible 1B…I mean, we could have worse.
That reminds me of when Heilman pitched a one hitter.
To me when Alou comes back and plays for a few games it will be the perfect time to trade Endy. Endy was great and his defense is special but he does not provide the things that Pagan does for the bench. I would think that you could get an overpriced BP arm for Chavez. Maybe even Chad Bradford?
If these guys really do have “feelings”, and are sensitive to what is being said of them (as some seem to be), I wonder if the Willie quotes do get to them? Tough love gets you so far, but occasionally people who have done well like to hear a positive comment.
People are going to flip out over Pagan being a bench player after a torrid start. But they will just have to settle down. Odds are he is playing waaaaaay over his head right now and soon enough hits a slump. If anyone thinks he is a better hitter then Alou then they need a reality check. But with that being said he can still see a lot of action…..
-Alou will inevitably see another trip to DL at some point
-Beltran will most likely get sore knees sometime this summer and need to take a week or so off
-Pagan can spell Church in Right vs a tough lefty and Alou 1-2 times a week in left.
-could be used as a secondary righty or lefty PH behind Anderson/Easley respectively.
Pagan could easily get 400 ab as a bench player on this team. So there should be no argument, if Alou is healthy he bumps Pagan to the bench.
Willie Randolph’s comments do matter because they suggest that Pagan’s performance is a fluke. If Pagan is an everyday player, then his performance is unsurprising and expected to continue; if Pagan is a “back-up” player, then his performance is surprising and not expected to continue. Comments like Randolph’s contribute to a player’s confidence or lack of confidence. When a person encourages you and shows faith in you, you begin to believe in yourself, and it helps make you a better player. Randolph does not develop talent because of these public votes of no confidence. This is ridiculous, and just another reason why I can’t wait for Randolph to be fired which should have been Sunday afternoon as far as I am concerned.
This is a perfect example of what Willie does wrong. When you have a hot bat or a player that is on fire you play them, its simple. You dont sit them down becasue an old veteran is back. He did this in 2006 and 2007 and it looks like it will contunue. Remember when Clif Floydd had that hot streak going and hit is like 15 or 16 games and what did Willie do? He sat him down and that ended his streak. When will Willie learn that you go with who is HOT?
Of course Alou should start when he comes back. My problem is Willie SAYING this about Pagan in such an unflattering way when there is no timetable for Alou’s return.
Reminds me so eerily of the situation with Ruben Gotay.
Gotay was hitting .340 in over 60 games and Willie simply dismissed him as a temporary backup infielder. Was it any surprise when the Mets (who had a comfortable 6-7 game lead) spiraled out of control after acquiring Castillo into the WORST regular-season collapse of all-time. I’m NOT blaming Luis, but we were winning with Gotay and Willie’s infatuation with veterans hurt this team.
Pagan’s playing great, no doubt BUT we’re not winning like we should. Thus, I’m not against benching Angel if Moises helps our team to win but if Alou comes back and struggles and Willie refuses to put Angel back into the lineup then I’ll have one more ammunition nugget against Willie’s job security…
It made me think of Gotay too. Its a horrible way to treat “young” players who are finally hitting their stride and basically tell them that no matter what they do, they will still be backups.
This is such a non issue. Remember when we worried about whether pelfrey or el duque would be squuezed out of the 5th starter spot in the opening day rotation…..non issue.
Just let things play out. Best case scenario, we have Alou, Beltran, Church, Pagan, and Endy healthy.
Alou will need a day or two off per week anyway. Church can get a day or two off vs a lefty. Beltran will need a blow every once in a while.
No reason pagan cant start 3-4 days a week.
It’s an issue because Willie should have said what you are saying. Willie is about to do to Pagan what he did to Gotay, Milledge, and Keppinger, and what he is about to do with Feliciano and Pelfrey. He hangs players out to dry for no reason. He emphasizes the flaws of his younger players and downplays their virtues.
I used to be fine with Willie as a manager, then I knew better, and felt conflicted because while acknowledging that he is a horrible in-game manager, I thought he was good with his players. Then I realized that he is also terrible with his players and felt conflicted because I felt he was a decent human being.
I can’t say whether or not Willie is or is not a decent human being; I don’t know him. From what I can tell, however, given his treatment of Gotay–particularly when he was cut– Milledge, and now Pagan, he seems to be a jerk.
Get rid of him yesterday, please.
This lineup is really missing a guy like Alou…Someone who is actually going to make something happen, i.e. drive in runs. Alou picked up the slack last season when is it seemed like EVERY guy was in a slump. Hopefully, once Alou gets back and in a rythm, this team can start clicking.
I think Willie could have used a bit more tact when talking about Pagan’s role..The kid has been a brite spot in what is otherwise a flat team effort thus far.. ..my 2 cents
He hasn’t earned his stripes. I’m sure if Wilie was asked about what he thought Albert Pujols during his rookie season he would have said he sucked.
I think Willie will platoon Pagan and Alou. And I hope Pagan doesn’t become trade bait as Nady did in 2006.
So do I… Nady was traded because the team had an urgent need for a late-inning reliever after the taxi crash.
Yes, Pagan has done amazingly well in a short period of time, both performance-wise and attitude-wise. Everything seems to have gone right for you. I didn’t read the full Willie quote and I understand that he needs to make sure that Alou, Church and Chavez don’t feel any insecurity in their positions, but I just hope that Willie hasn’t done it again. He seems to many times unnecessarily publicly put-down young players. It’s Mets For Me had an excellent piece where he listed several quotes that were harmful. Willie a lot of times speaks the truth and other times, whether he knows what he’s talking about or not, he should just can it IMO. Tough when you do those postgame press conferences after every friggin game, which while I sometimes enjoy, I don’t necessarily feel is always in the team’s best interests.
As I said earlier Alou will take Clarks spot on the team, however, is Endy now a waste? Besides great defense what does he give us? I would tend to bring up a infield defensive player at that point? Maybe in Valentin if he was healthy so he could play IF and OF and be useful as a pinch hitter. How many AB’s does Endy have so far anyway?
Just be glad that by the time Willie was hired, David Wright had already established himself and become enough of a fan favorite that Willie couldn’t be too “critical” of him.
Willie’s magic number seems to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 35. If you’re under that number, all of your success can be explained away, all of your failures placed under a microscope. Over? No problem. Willie won’t say anything really, because you’ll get in your groove soon enough.
Mota finally did get in his groove. Finally worked out of one of his jams. Too bad it was Sunday afternoon.
Mota doesn’t deserve credit for that. He threw ball 3 and Delgado helped him out by trying to hit a grand slam. Thank Delgado for that.
OK, and Willie responded to that by being critical of… Pagan???
That’s the real point I was trying to make. There certainly are two sets of rules for who get dressed down in the media and who gets a pass.
Sometimes Willie comes off like he sees himself as a 53 year old baseball player, and he thinks of the older guys as his peers.
The thing I will/already miss the most about Pagan is batting 2nd in the order. He makes contact and gives you the chance for the big inning. Castillo may protect Reyes on the basepaths, but seems incapable of hitting the ball out of the infield. But since Willie has inserted Castillo back in the 2 spot, we have lost 3 in a row. How do you hit into a double play with runners on 1st and 3rd with no one out and NOT score the run???
I’m with fanbunker.
I don’t think its a coincidence that we won all three games that Castillo missed.
It’s not that Castillo is valueless; that would be far too generous an estimation of Castillo’s utility. Castillo has great value to any team the Mets are playing. He is a near-automatic out from the left side.
Let’s see how long Castillo has to bat .200/.280/.230
for Willie to get him out of the 2nd spot in the order.
By the way, how in the world should Willie’s efforts go towards making sure Alou and Church don’t feel insecure about their positions?
Everyone knows Alou will get his spot back. Church was part of a high profile trade… Now he’s done a nice job, but even if he stunk it up he was going to play everyday. Their jobs were never in any danger. The problem I have with Willie is that he never seems to react to ANYTHING. But then when he’s asked about a young player he comes to life and becomes a quote machine, and it’s never anything positive.
Pagan should have been treated much differently in the media by Willie. If nothing else, his small sample has earned him that much. Why not just say “Wow, Angel is going to make this tough. It’s a good problem to have!” Then you play the guys where you have to, and they should be professional enough to understand. I doubt Pagan thought he was taking Alou’s job. It could all be handled with more tact.
The one thing I will say is that maybe Willie is using reverse psychology on Pagan. If he says Pagan is only a bench player, maybe that will motivate Pagan to keep playing great and to show everyone that he deserves to be an everyday player. People here might think that Willie doesn’t care about his young guys but he is always the first one to greet them in dugout if they do something good or bad.
Reverse psychology works on some players and not others. But if Willie actually means to use reverse psychology, then he’s doing it for every single rookie there is.
I wish that was it. I really don’t know what else this kid has to do to be more motivated. He had an amazing spring, has come out of the shoot and done everything well and leads the team in average and tied with wright for rbi’s. I hope he keeps it up, he’s been such a nice little story and i hope even when Alou comes back he can manage getting 2-3 starts a week (day or two off for alou and spell church once a week against a lefty)
Even if Alou comes back healthy. On his BEST DAY.. he cant field Or run as well as PAGAN. I would keep the old man on the bench. Pagan could win more games with his speed and defense than ALOU could with his bat. I think ALOU would make a better pinch hiter than PAGAN would.
I find it quite commical that there are people blaming Castillo for the losing streak. The guy since coming back is hitting .285 with at .444 OBP yet he is the one costing us the games? He is a perfect 2/8 hitter and that is it.
What is that .285 .444 in 2 games?
You are making my point for me. If the best Castillo can do in any consecutive 3 game period is .285/.444/.315, it indicates that his average should be about .180 and his O.B.P. .260 or thereabouts. Even I don’t think Castillo is that bad. But Lastings Milledge, for example, on his best 3 consecutive days thus far is a .415/.450/.583 hitter, and he’s been struggling. David Wright on his best 4 consecutive days is hitting .415/.550/.940.
Castillo used to be a good old-school no. 2 hitter. He is not anymore. It is far more valuable to have someone who can have a chance of driving Reyes in himself, or hit a double in case Reyes does not get on base, than someone whose only purpose is to let Reyes steal a base or push him over on a ground ball to the right side. Any college player could do those things. Hell, I could do those things to a point. Am I an ideal no. 2 MLB hitter?
Here’s an idea… Can the Mets give Alou some rehab time at 1B, so when/if he returns the team can platoon him at first with Delgado from time to time? Assuming Pagan is legit, the team could keep a young(er), athletic and productive OF intact, and an Alou/Delgado platoon at 1B would allow each to keep those aging bodies healthier.
Like someone else mentioned. Alou is not going to learn 1B for the first time in his career at age 40!
Guys. Get a reality check! Yes… Pagan had an awesome spring and an awesome start, but you’re not going to sit Alou when he’s been an awesome player when healthy even at 40. On the other hand… nothing in Pagan’s minor league career suggests he will keep this up. When he’s been doing this for a year or 2 then, I’ll be a believer… Until then.. enjoy the ride!
1. Pagan is still young, he is at the point where it is not out of the realm of possibility that he is improving.
2. I do not think Pagan will keep up this torrid streak, but it is possible that he has matured into an above-average major leaguer who should see playing time.
3. Willie should not have downplayed Pagan’s success. Even if his BABIP were .460 and even if Willie knew what BABIP was, Willie should not dismiss everything he has done and should have assured him that he would find a way to give him his at-bats.
4. Of course Alou starts over Pagan. But Willie should have emphasized the role Pagan would have rather than the one he would not have, the things he could do rather than the things he could not do. If this were an isolated incident, I would have let it slide, but it is a pattern with Willie that has hurt the team and hurt its young players, and I for one, am sick of it.
the reason Willie keeps down playing Pagan is because he doesnt want the public to think that a young gifted player can just steal the role of an established veteran…What if Reyes got seriously hurt and Anderson Hernandez was hot in replacing him would you want him to replace Reyes? On the other hand i think Pagan is swinging a hot bat and until he slumps down should maybe move around the outfield in a platoon job involving him and the three other outfielders.