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Ryan Church was 2 for 4 last night, with a home run, against a lefty, while once again hitting from the number two spot in the batting order.
Church is batting .350, with two HR and five RBI in 20 at-bats against left-handed pitching this season.
Church, on batting second:
“I love it…I’ve been getting some pitches that I’ve been able to do something with.”
Willie Randolph, on why the switch in the lineup:
“Well, you know, when I make moves like that, it’s because I know my players better than any one. I have a good feel for my players. I watch BP, I watch how guys are swinging…I think when you face a guy like Chico, and (other left-handed pitchers), you take away their change up by putting a guy like Church in that spot where – you take that away from him, now there’s fastballs and Church takes advantage of that. So, that’s my thought process. I don’t always go in to detail, because sometimes it’s just a feeling that I have.”
…i still feel that this new lineup wastes church’s and Luis Castillo’s greatest assets…however, it’s hard to deny that the team has been scoring in this new method…i’ll concede that this may be the best option against lefties, because a) it breaks up the other left-handed bats, and b) it gets church more fastballs, which he clearly enjoys as evident by his quote and results…so, maybe this is good, maybe they go with this lineup against lefties and the other lineup against righties…
I am fine with it because it prepares the team for Alou’s return as well.
Reyes, Church, Wright, Beltran, Delgado, Alou, Schnieder, Castillo. That keeps that balance that Willie loves to have.
I see this lineup as the best alternative to use when Delgado isnt hitting and Alou is out. If Degado was hitting like he did in Miami then it wouldnt need to be altered.
Castillo is most useful hitting second with a hot Reyes. They lose so much value in him when he hits 8th. Not sure I like it long term, but I’m not counting on Delgado to get hot anytime soon either…
They really dont losethat much value batting him 8. He is very disciplined and can take a walk. He also bats .300 and has a nice OBP, and good speed, although 1 out of 100 on the power scale. He gets on with 2 outs in the inning, he clears the pitchers spot (whihc is a small but very important feat that can cost, or win a team a game getting the top of the order up instead of 9,1,2.)
If he gets on to leadoff, he gets bunted to second. I love church in the 2 spot.
I LOVE the new line up because with Churches pop Reyes gets pitches to hit.
I love that Willie says he made the move because he “knows his players better than anyone,” yet tons of people on this website alone were calling for this move a week or two before the switch was made. Anyways, I’m glad it was done.
lol … good point. Give Willie credit though, it only took him 2 weeks and not 2 months this time.
Actually, I don’t recall anyone demanding that Church bat second. For the most part, people were demanding that Pagan bat second, not a bright idea since it strings too many lefties together late in the order.
(If were the lone prophet who called for Church to bat second, all praise be upon you. No need to write back in high dudgeon).
Matt, in regards to wasting the best assets of Castillo and Church:
I agree that Castillo, in a vaccum, is best at getting on base and not very good at driving in runs. Church is surely a power hitter.
But studies have shown that when you give your best hitters (which is usually pure OPS) the most at-bats, you score the most runs. The same is true when you cluster your better hitters together with the ones who are better at OBP up front.
The reality is that Castillo’s poor slugging percentage makes him a harmful batter unless he’s getting on base over 40% of the time, which he generally is not.
So what you have is a lineup of Reyes, Church, Wright, Beltran, your 4 best OPS producers (by far), all clustered in the front 4 spots. It’s the most effective offense you can have (even if it isn’t sexy or traditional). When Alou comes back, he’d slot right in at 5 perfectly in front of Delgado.
Castillo is recovering from his injury. One of his best assets is his speed and bunting. He cannot do that until the weather gets warmer and his knee gets used to wear and tear after his surgery.
So obviously Castillo has not been effective early. But he will be by the time Alou comes back when he can go back to batting second.
The second batter has to able to lead of as well. IMO You need speed at lead off and batting second in the NL.
Except for his average Castillo’s current numbers are pretty much on track with his career numbers. So Backstop’s argument holds true regardless. Church is a better OPS guy by a pretty wide margin.
I agree with you. The traditional image of the “perfect #2 hitter” needs to be revised. It’s nice that Castillo can bunt and take pitches, but it’s better to have a #2 hitter who can actually put runs on the board.
Quite a change from when the trade was made. Do people want Lastings back for Church?
It depends. Who did better yesterday? Well, that’s obviously the player we should have kept. When Church does well, the trade was brilliant. When Milledge does well (or when Church strikes out), we should fire Omar. Haven’t you figured that out yet?
LOL @ theperfectgame.
I thought the trade was okay when it was made, and nothing has happened to change my mind. Schneider has been solid behind the dish, works well with pitchers and is swinging a nice bat so far. Church looks like he may be ready to blossom now that he has a solid supporting cast. Milledge should be a good player for many years to come, but right now, I feel fine about the deal.
this type of level heading thinking really isnt allowed here…
Schneider’s game-calling: great. Schneider’s projected passed balls for the year: not so much.
let’s give him a week with the new (old) mitt before we crucify him for the passed balls.
Agreed. Also, let’s not take every non-positive comment as a crucifixion.
Exactly. A good deal wehere oth teams win. We get 2 solid vets to help with a run to the playoffs this year, and Milledge, with his inexperience (atleast in my opinion) is not ready to help a team win a world series yet. He is not disiplined enough. But he has a bright future, the Nats are looking to build around high upside youth, and they gave us 2 solid players who would have been long gone by the time the Nats can even consider trying to compete. It is also a good thing to have nicve relationships with certain GM’s around the league, you can help eachother out when youi have too. You dont want to have all the GM’s scared to trade with you.
But anyway, it is a win for the Mets in 2008, probably 2009, but after that Milledge should be the best player in the deal. There is alwayts a chance that Church blossoms into a reliable guy and sticks with us for the future though too. That trade did wonders for our defense. When Schneider is finished breaking in his glove I think we will finally stop seeing balls popping meaninglessly out of his mitt every inning.
I like the lineup to some extent. I still hope for Castillo to bounce back and be the second guy in the lineup that he has been in the past. Last night he got three hits that went unnoticed. If Castillo comes to form – contact, moving Reyes, a cheap hit here and there- and Alou comes strong, the lineup should look like this…
Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Delgado, Alou, Church, Schneider.
A la Tony La Russa, I would be tempted to also try a lineup of:
Reyes, Church, Wright, Beltran, Delgado, Alou, Schneider, pitcher, Castillo.
But knowing Randolph I doubt he would go that far – he likes traditional baseball.
I like the idea of Castillo in the 9 spot as well. That way when he gets on base there is someone to drive him in. However, Schnieder clears the pitcher well too. What about letting Castillo hit 7th? I guess we would still want an RBI man there but if Castillo gets on and then steals 2nd Shnieder can drive him in.?
not a bad idea, imo. Worth trying for a couple days if nothing else.
Though having Castillo hit 8th allows them to make use Church’s (and Reyes) rbi abilities that some claim are being wasted at the top of the lineup.
If Castillo gets on base with 2 outs as the # 7 hitter, he can’t steal because then they would pitch around schneider to face the pitcher and get out of the inning. If Castillo is batting 8th than he has a good chance of getting on base to clear the pitchers spot which worked last night. Would the mets have scored 4 runs in the 5th if Maine made the first out of the inning?
Err… quite possibly. We scored all the runs with 0 out.
Batting a position player 9th makes zero sense. Over the course of a season you actually take at-bats away from your position player and give them to the pitcher spot.
I like Castillo in the 8 spot. He gets on base at a decent clip, and it’s good to have a good OBP/speed guy batting right before the pitcher. Should Castillo single (and i mean single because he has no power) with 0 or 1 out, you can bunt him over with the pitcher everytime.
It just makes no sense to me to bat him 2nd. Reyes often ends up at 2nd base in the middle of the next at-bat via a double or single + stolen base. Then you have the #2 hitter up with Reyes on 2nd. Reyes can basically score on any hit coming from 2nd, so why would you bunt him to 3rd base? I’ve seen Castillo do it, its a total waste of an out.
I agree that its a silly idea, but the first arguement is bunk. The pitchers dont get more AB’s, the PH’s do. And I could make the arguement that most NL teams have PH’s who are better hitters than the last guy or two in the lineup.
In this case Marlon Anderson and Easley are clearly better hitters than Castillo and Schneider…
That said it doesnt make it a good idea to hit Castillo 9th.
a bunch of sabermetrics guys ran the math this offseason and determined that batting the pitcher 8th should lead to about 6-8 more runs per season for a team, which essentially means an extra 2 wins (or, enough to win the NL East last year.) Not sure why it is, exactly, but that’s the math. (Rob Neyer talked about it on his ESPN blog during Spring Training)
Could bat him 9th when Perez and Santana are pitching, They are decent hitters and if the seventh hitter gets on they could then bunt them over or swing away
hitting the pitcher in front of reyes is a waste of reyes’ power and his ability to drive in runs. which is incidentally what castillo completely lacks.
this offense would be best if either castillo hit 1 and reyes 2, or castillo 9 and reyes 1, than having reyes hit before castillo.
all this talk about bunting and moving runners over is really really meaningless compared to a guy who can hit getting more ABs *especially* when a guy like reyes is likely to be in scoring position. keith loves to talk about all this stuff because he played in an era where runs were scarce and lineups really had to scrape for them. nowadays i will take a whole AL style lineup full of mashers please.
“Batting a position player 9th makes zero sense. Over the course of a season you actually take at-bats away from your position player and give them to the pitcher spot. ”
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Just a question, do you listen to the talkingf heads on TV all the time of just think for yourself? Did you copy that word for word from Gary Cohen? Maybe you get the pitcher 10 more at bats then he would have had batting 9th (Oh my god no!), but how many times does the number 3 hitter come up with an extra guy on base?
If the pitcher is getting on base at a 230 on base percentage, and Castillo is reaching at a .390 clip, then doesnt the 3 and 4 hitters come up a lot more times in the course of the year with RBI chances? I would rather have 20 more at bats where my 3rd place hitter has extra ducks on the pond then have the pitcher come to like 10 times less then he would have if he batted 9th.
I hope Willie is protecting Castillo’s honor by saying it’s more of a strategy thing than a Castillo is stinking up the joint thing. The real reason shouldn’t change when we face righties. Listen, this could all change if Church starts messing up himself, but it has been VERY frustrating watching him hit in the 2 hole; a decent hitting pitcher can get productive outs too. This isn’t the dead ball era, we can’t be manufacturing ALL our runs. Nevertheless, I’m impressed that Willie didn’t wait until mid August to make the change; good for him.
ps: I really don’t like the idea of hitting Castillo ninth. If he can get on base at a great clip, good for him. We have a defensive 2nd baseman who can clear the pitcher’s spot….not the worst thing in the world.
The problem is that normally when Schnieder comes back down to earth, that is what he will be good for.
Yeah, but Castillo is able to do it without protection. I could be wrong though…I don’t know how Schneider has done when he’s in the 8 hole…if he’s hit there in his career.
It’s just that Schnieder’s OBP is much, much better than his career average.
really? because i REALLY hope willie DID make this change for strategy, because that might indicate that he understands, on some level, that a guy who doesn’t regularly hit the ball out of the infield and doesn’t run like he used to isn’t the best choice to sandwich between three all-star and potential MVP caliber hitters.
I’m a big fan of the new lineup. Hopefully we never have to see Castillo and his slap hitting at the top of the lineup ever again.
In 50 games with us last season, he had an OBP of .371. If he can replicate that, and continue to move Jose along the base paths, his slap hitting and lack of power isn’t an issue.
Love Church at 2 and Castillo at 8. Breaks up the lefty heavy bottom of the order, and both are hitting in their current positions. I would even consider batting Castillo 9 and the pitchers 8 like the Brewers are doing with Jason Kendall. You then have Castillo on base for Reyes, Church, Wright. Sounds pretty good to me.
Castillo batting 8th is a waste. If that’s all he can do then it probably wasn’t worth the risk of signing him.
Castillo is there to get on base and to move runners over. I like Church, but do you really want to rely on him to bunt Reyes into scoring position during a crucial point in the late innings?
Do we know if Church can or cannot bunt? I know he doesn’t fit the profile of a typical bunter, but I can’t say for sure either way.
He got a very nice bunt down 2 nights ago … so judging from that I think we can say he can get a bunt down.
It was said last night that he loves to bunt and it was part of his game until the fact that he was batting in the cleanup spot in Washington.
No, I never want to rely on anybody to ever have to bunt Reyes anywhere. He is pretty fast, and can steal bases. There is nothing I hate more then a late inning game, down by one, Reyes gets on first, and gets bunted over before he attemts steal. I gauruntee we score a higher percentage of the time when Reyes attempts a stolen base as opposed to just saccing him to second.
Here is a situation wehere the commenter makes one decent point and makes his decision based on it. Castillo having to bunt over Reyes… okay.
What about the 3 times that castillo has failed to bring in runners from 3rd with less then 2 outs because he can only hit the ball like 200 feet tops??
What about when Reyes is on 3rd? Vastillo is literally useless in those situations, he needs a hit to score the run.
And by the way, Church dropped down a nice bunt the other day, he omved Reyes over without any trouble at all.
So yeah, if the only reason you have for Castillo batting 8th being a “terrible” idea is that you dont trust Church to get down a sac bunt in the 7th inning or later, when we are trailing by one run, when Reyes is on first.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight………………
So what was the point in signing Castillo? To have some injury prone guy bat eigth hoping he can get a hit to clear the pitcher spot.
Castillo makes such a great #2 hitter because he has an excellent OBP and does not strike out much. Last year Church had 107 SO’s in 407 AB’s. Castillo had 45 SO’s in 548 AB’s. He sets up the #3 and #4 hitters to drive in runs. Castillo also takes a lot of pitches and gives Reyes time to steal bases.
You can criticize my reasoning, but you also are giving only one particular situation (runner on 3rd less than 2 out). And even in that situation Castillo can hit a ball deep enough to drive in a run. He can also get a walk, get a hit, squeeze bunt, whatever.
And there is no comparison in bunting abilities. Church might be good, but Castillo is one of the best bunters I’ve ever seen.
there was no good reason to sign castillo. your reasoning about what castillo can do is overshadowed by what he can’t do, which is: hit an extra base hit. and when you consider that an extra-base hit is the absolute best outcome you can hope for, and without it you are left with bad outs, good outs, walks and slappy singles, it really hurts his usefulness in a good lineup.
Church cant hit lefties, Schneider cant catch or hit, Milledge is going into the hall of fame after 2008. Fire Omar
hmmm. finally the board is positive. but now I need to voice my problem.
6th inning, reyes gets on with 2 outs. Chuch swings at the first pitch and flies out. I thought I saw frustration on Reyes’ face as the game went to commercial.
I don’t know. reyes wasn’t running on the first pitch but I think with 2 outs, getting into the later innings, and in a fairly close game, you need to take a few pitches and let Jose run.
I will be fair though and let church develop into hitting #2. he may be seeing better pitches, but sometimes, it is about taking pitches too. I hope he understands that.
I know I’m nitpicking and it is not negative. I would have just liked to see Reyes get a chance to swipe a bag there.
I think in general HoJo needs to move Church away from hacking at every first pitch he sees, regardless of what position he’s batting. I’m prepared to be patient about that though, since Ryan’s doing great so far.
Matt, I have to respectfully disagree. This lineup, against righties or lefties, is clearly the most dynamic. Castillo is a powerless, slap hitter. A two-hole hitter should have a combination of speed, power, and patience which makes Church ideal although he has average speed (atleast he’s far from being a base cloger)