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Last night, Aaron Heilman took over in the eighth inning, replacing Duaner Sanchez, who had pitched a near-perfect seventh.
The first batter reached base against Heilman, due to a bobbled ball by Jose Reyes, who then moved to second after Heilman hit the next batter with a fastball in the back. Kosuke Fukudome hit a single off Heilman to load the bases.
However, Heilman got the next two batters out, putting himself one strike away – twice – from ending the inning, before letting up a two-run single to Ronny Cedeno.
Willie randolph replaced Heilman with Jorge Sosa, who immediately have up a two-run home run to Felix Pie.
…if you went to the kitchen for a drink, you would have missed the entire explosion…it happened so quickly…
Aaron Heilman, talking to reporters after the game:
“I put myself in a jam and tried to make a pitch and, unfortunately, I didn’t get it in far enough. He was able to put some contact on it and get it through the infield. You’re one pitch away from getting out of the inning, and unfortunately I didn’t make that pitch.”
…a) i’m glad he didn’t throw reyes under the bus, even though it’s jose’s error that started the slide…b) he’s right…he’s not making the pitch he needs to make…he had cedeno down in the count, with two outs, yet lost him, ultimately serving up a meaty pitch over the plate…
…i’m starting to realize that there is an Ebb and Flow of Heilman that must be acknowledged by the team’s management…in that, he’ll be great for several weeks than become a total mess, then be great again, then be a mess, and back and forth he’ll go…which does not play well with a manager like willie, who sees the down time as a moment to test his faith, a time when he must trust his players in an effort to bring them out of the slump…which may be good, i mean maybe that method is what resurrects heilman during his down time…then again, what is being lost while waiting for aaron to get it together, i.e. what is the opportunity cost…
…smarter men than i will decide how best to use heilman…but, it doesn’t take a genius to realize how streaky he is, and only a fool would ignore it…
what happened to the Willie poll?
It was clearly not an accurate way to read fan opinion. It essentially became a direct reflection of the standings, which if the case why bother doing it at all.
I was warned of this by hundreds of readers in the first day of posting it. I disagreed. They were right.
I disagree. Even when we are winning, you can’t overlook some of the questionable decisions made by the manager.
And at the same time, not every loss is the manager’s fault.
But when you have a poll that’s so subjective and simultaneously not at all open-ended, a lot of people probably respond without really thinking because they can, and I guess that’s where a lot of cum hoc ergo propter hoc comes in.
Matt:
I knew that thing would not last as soon as I saw it. The confidence rating ebbs and flows with team results as well, but as it is a more generic measure it does become as big a lightning rod as a poll that indicts one member of the organization.
I am interested if any of the pressure to remove it came from the brass, or whether this was your decision based on reader input.
GET RID OF HEILMAN
heilman is just not good this year. Hopefully Willie will not be stubborn about his role and allow Duaner to pitch the eigth sooner than later. If Willie continues to preach this confidence and trust crap with his players roles than he is going to find himself out of a job. His job is to manage, when things are going bad make adjustments and right the ship do not sit around and say you have trust in your guys.
we’ll see…he is historically a 2nd half pitcher.
I think Willie’s real test this year will be Delgado. Heilman is not a veteran, future hall of famer. Move him back to the 7th or even 6th inning and have him share time with Smith and Sosa and those guys. Feliciano becomes your 7th inning guy and Dirty goes back to the 8th.
Delgado is a different story though. You give him another month but then have to address it and move him down in the order and possibly play him 4-5 times a week. Who knows, maybe Alou re-energizes him but this will be a delicate situation.
Heilman was done after Yadier got hold of him in 06. We need to dump him while we can still get something for him… I rather watch a no name rookie out there pitching. Heilman is damaged.
I’m not sure if some of you have been watching Heilman throughout his Mets career without blue and orange tinted glasses.
When Heilman came up with the Mets as a starter he was awful. He pitched one great game in Florida….and that was it. Since he’s been a reliever, he has failed in big game situations virtually every time. He only looks good vs subpar oposition. Check the numbers if you don’t believe me.
Furthermore, watch him pitch. No..I mean really watch him pitch. His stuff does not move…at all. Straight as an arrow change and fastball right over the plate (when he’s not walking people). This is why batters crush him, and hit tons of HR’s. He has never been good, and his stuff has never been good, so stop fooling yourselves.
Willie needs to stop putting him in tight games because he’s not going to get the job done. Keep his trade value up and deal him before the deadline. Duaner Sanchez has nasty stuff….no brainer why he’s not the 8th inning man already.
Liek it or not, we’re going to need Heilman to be successful this year. I think Heilman can use 3-4 days straight of not pitching. Hopefully Figs can go 7 and Santana 8 and we can get some blow outs. Heilman can just chill out and stop trying so hard. Also good thing we are not home or the boo birds would be pourrrrring in
lol if that happened at home i think he would probably go deaf
Great point. Heilman has pitched in 12 of the 18 games this year. Willie is going Joe Torre on Heilman, giving him the Scott Procter treatment. Give him a set role (8th inning setup guy… NOT when trailing in the 8th inning) including more rest and he’ll come back to form.
Is it juts me or does it seem like everyone in the bullpen is warming up and/or in the game every single night. We have been getting good starting pitching so I’m not sure why. It is just an observation and it could be me being paranoid but I feel like the bullpen is already being overused. Does anyone else feel this way?
It true. There’s this relatively new theory in baseball that after the 5th inning you immediately go to your bullpen at the first sign of trouble. I had no problem with hooking Maine last night because he’s thrown a bunch of pitches, but this whole notion that you have to yank your starter when he gives up a bleeder and a bloop after the fifth inning is just stupid. Starters are almost always better pitchers than relievers, and they are professionals who are able to get themselves out of jams.
The whole system is screwy and wears down bullpens. And in the hands of a not-so-good strategic manager (um, like Randolph) it can be a disaster.
Again, I’m not talking about last night, but there are plenty of examples.
Expect your starters to go 7, and eventually they will on balance.
couldn’t agree more. Heck, look at the Cubs last night: Zambrano was dominant, pitched a 1-2-3 Seventh, but conventional wisdom says you gotta go to the setup guy in the 8th, so in comes Marmol. Obviously, it didn’t hurt the Cubs (and Marmol’s one of the better setup men), but why not let Zambrano go back out there and save the bullpen?
one word…Money.
Yes, and there seems to be little rhyme or reason to Randolph’s bullpen management. He trusts his gut, throws a few guys out there, some of them succeed, some of them fail. He might as well use a dart board.
“then again, what is being lost while waiting for aaron to get it together, i.e. what is the opportunity cost…?”
That would GAMES, as in LOSSES. I had a feeling that the Mets could have scrounged together a run in the 9th. Sure they didn’t do anything in that inning, but obviously there is a huge difference between being down 1 and being down 6. Both in the Mets mind and for Kerry Wood.
I am so annoyed at having insurance runs put up against us. It seems like it happens that way much more often than us adding insurance runs.
Heilman has been used something like 5 out of the last 6 games. They need to let up with him and give him a rest.
Many whine that Schoeneweis should be used just as a LOOGY. But with the need for the pen to pitch 3-4 innings almost every single night, if you reserve Schoeneweis for just limited duty then that means you’re taxing the other relievers too much.
They’re paying Schoeneweis $4 million this year. And he’s pitched about 1/3 of the innings Heilman has. That’s an inefficient use of the pen. But it’s not Willie’s fault. They need to spread the work around more or get rid of Schoeneweis.
It was really sad listening to the 8th inning. I mean, the score was 2-1 going into the inning! Well within reach. Sad.
heilman is very important to this team and bullpen. he was excellent last year and has been very solid for 3 years.
he’s struggling now, but will rebound. i really hope mets fans don’t boo him at shea…this guy is too important to the team. heilman always come in in the late innings often facing the toughest situations. more so than wags (who’s be very good) who only comes in at the start of the 9th with the bases empty.
sosa seems to come in with even tougher spots…guys on base with 1 or fewer outs. he’s not as important as heliman though. the mets still need the guy. there is no sele or mota this year. this pen is much better than last year. the starters need to go deeper in the games.
I sense that even Matt is getting annoyed with Willie. Wow! He is really overusing the ‘pen. Which is exactly what got us into trouble last year.
PUT YOUR PLAYERS IN POSITION TO SUCCEED.
THANK YOU WELL SAID!!!
This is a pretty good assessment by Matt.
I think the only thing that will change for Heilman is when (not if— when) Duaner takes back his 8th inning role, and Aaron is back working the 7th inning. It seems like (and I have no statistical evidence to prove it) many times it is the 8th inning where the opposing team’s best hitters are up. Perhaps Aaron will find more consistency in the 7th. (And we will be back to our successful relief model of the first half of ‘06).
agreed. But will Williie make the move before it is too late, I understand that Duaner needs some innings to reestablish himself but Willie does not seem inclined to shake things up or switch roles.
thats the thing with willie though. He constantly is saying he wants to “test” his players right, so why not put sanchez in the 8th and “test” him out then. I do not think heilman does well in the 8th or against the middle of another teams lineup. Will willie wake up one day and realize this…we hope so.
Sanchez is still in “recovery” mode. I don’t think he’s ptiched back to back games yet. Once he does, I think Willie will ease him into the 8th inning role. After not pitching so long, he needs to gain some confidence!
yea i understand that. maybe he should use that approach with heilman. cause right now he does not have any confidance and you could see it yesterday as he has no control over his pitches.
Heilman is good for two runs a game, I’ll keep saying it until he stops proving me right.
Sanchez has got to get established as the 8th inning man, and frankly I would rather see Feliciano than Heilman in the 7th if need be.
The thing that kills me is that people talk about Heilman being a starter. This guy would have a 6+ ERA if he had to go through a lineup more than once.
Feliciano hasn’t been so good of late either.
heilman era
2005
first half: 4.63 second half: .68
2006
first half: 4.35 second half: 2.65
2007
first half: 3.83 second half: 2.27
The starters, and in particular Maine and OP, have GOT to go at least 7. This continues to be a problem. Last night, Maine looked fine, but he is constantly falling behind batters. It seems like every single at-bat is 1-0, 2-0, foul, foul, 3-0, hit/out, with the very occasional non-foul strike. He either needs to throw 120 pitches (ill-advised given his last year burnout) or THROW STRIKES.
Heilman seems to have a tendency to give up big hits. Even though factually he has been good in most situations, there is definitely something about him that does not inspire confidence. But even worse is the Heilman screw up-Sosa chaser. As soon as Heilman was pulled for Sosa, it was just so predictable what was about to happen. Sosa has come in and done some good work, but it never seems to be with inherited baserunners (admitting that this is only my perception. reality may differ). Even though he has not been steller, I still feel better when I see Feliciano jogging in, and I definitely feel better when I see Smith.
But none of this matters if the SPs can’t go 7 on at least a regular basis. Really, they ought to go 8 once in awhile!
Maine has pitched 4, 6, 6.2, and 6.
Perez has pitched 6, 5.2, 4.1, 5.2.
This is not the route to #2 pitcherhood…or 200+ IP.
“Heilman screw up-Sosa chaser”
Classic.
well willie also refuses to let these guys pitch more than 100 or so pitches or get out of any sort of jam in the 6th or later, matchups be damned.
that said, I HAVE TO ACTUALLY AGREE WITH WILLIE LAST NIGHT. heilman very nearly got out of that mess on his own, which would have been an ENORMOUS boost for him. it was worth the risk if it could have gotten heilman straightened out. let’s face it, we lost that game at the plate well before we lost it on the mound.
But then, as Matt said, why pull him and bring in Sosa? Just to make yet another reliever tired? If the idea is for Heilman to “fight through it” when he is in a rut, just let him fight. If we are going to lose 4-1 or 7-1 I’d rather it just be on him at this point.
Just really, really seems to me that every time Sosa comes in w/guys on, he gives at least one up.
because if aaron gives up that dinger than the outing is a complete disaster.
i am still happier about his outing saturday than i am pissed about yesterday, because he literally won us a huge game in philly. yesterday was a loss regardless.
I hope Heilman is traded after this season. For his own good. This way he can start for someone else and get it out of his system. Whether or not he succeeds as a starter is irrelevant. He needs to get that opportunity denied him by the Mets and find out for himself.
Some ask how he can be successful for 6 innings when he has trouble with 1 or 2 sometimes. Well, happiness is a great motivator. He’s never been completely happy as a reliever, even though he’s never complained about his role, contrary to the belief of some Mets fans. He’ll be happier to at least get the chance to start again.
Personally I think he can at least be a solid back of the rotation starter. Hopefully he gets his wish next year.
I was going to write the same thing — I think Heilman should demanded a year ago to be a starter here or be traded somewhere he could. He has been too much of a team player for his own good.
And I think he’ll be a very good starter somewhere. He has the mental makeup of a starter, not a reliever.
Heilman never really had the power to demand anything. The Mets own his rights for a few more years and can put him in any role they want.
It’s a shame that instead of at least trying out Heilman as a starter again — after he had refined his mechanics — they went to slop starters like Park, Lima, Ishii, and Lawrence. That’s what irks me.
You’re right that Heilman’s been a team player. He knew as soon as he started pitching well in the pen back in 2005 that he was in a catch-22 situation — the better he pitched as a reliever, the less likely he would be given a chance to start. It’s almost like the Joba situation with the Yankees now. And I remember Glavine even mentioning Heilman’s dilemma and talking about it publicly.
The Mets fans who boo Heilman don’t deserve him. I hope he goes someplace else soon where they at least give him the chance to start.
Although he has no contractual power, Heilman has the power in real life by demanding a trade, particualrly given the New York media. Minaya would trade him to avoid the distraction. He could hold out of camp if necessary too, but just saying I would rather be traded than be in the ‘pen is enough. And he could tell Minaya in the off season privately to trade him or he’ll become a problem in spring training — that way he isn’t screwing the Mets by killing his trade value ahead of time.
Are you serious? You said it yourself, he’s a team player. He wouldn’t pull a stunt like that.
When was the last time you saw any player do something as arrogant as that? The only player I can recall off the top of my head is Sheffield. Do you really think Heilman should start acting like that?
And if he did, can you imagine the magnitude of boos and curse words heaped upon him by the fan base if Omar didn’t trade him?
I said he was too much of a team player for his own good, and this is exactly what I meant — if he wants to start, he should do whatever necessary to get his shot. It is a risk — if he does it and it fails, he’ll really be boo’d. But it is pretty rare that a player who wants to be a starter is forced to be a reliever basically permanently, when he is relatively young, finally starting to pitch well, and was a high draft pick.
And it happens all the time for far less reasons. How do you think A-Rod got himself out of Texas?
A-Rod never “demanded” to be traded nor did he threaten to hold out of spring training. He sat down and talked to Hicks and simply asked to be traded. Hicks was probably relieved to get rid of his salary IF they could find a suitable team to trade with. This is different from what you are suggesting Heilman do.
Also, Heilman’s agent did let the Mets know a few years ago that Heilman’s desire is to start and that he would welcome a trade that would allow him to do so. Nothing ever came of it.
Again, it’s extremely rare for pro baseball players to do as you suggest and the only one I can think of who did anything remotely similar is Sheffield.
Also agree about the mental makeup thing. Wagner keeps saying Heilman would make a great closer but I think he couldn’t be more wrong. Heilman is better suited mentally to starting.
Anybody that was at game 7 2006 cant possibly have confidence in heilman. His stats look good at the end of the yr becuase he came in with big leads and didnt have any pressure. If an ounce of pressure is put on this guy he crumbles quicker then you can blink. Heliman will lose us games when we need him the most and comes through when games are out of hand. Every time he has come into a close game this yr he has put men on base. Its almost to a point where I expect him to put men on base and not just pitch clean innings. After being in the stands for that game 7 I have despised heilman with a passion and he does not deserve praise for having good second halfs. Hes not built for new york.
I was there. I still have faith in him for the long haul.
he’s turned into our Lidge
Maybe this is just me but I would be a lot happier every game if I knew Sanchez/Feliciano were handling the 8th inning while Heilman handled the 7th. It will relieve him of a lot of pressure and help him get his confidence back. I think even heilman himself knows hes gunna give up hits everytime he comes in. Everybody can see it coming and its not pretty to watch
No question that he’s let us down plenty, but he’s also been the right man for the job. Unless you can provide the numbers as Zen has, then you’re really blowing smoke. He’s going to be just the man we need late in the season. He has worked out of many pressure situations; last Saturday being the latest example.
I still find him to be one of the better relievers in the game, and this idea that he isn’t tough enough for NY is way off. Wagner himself has said the H-man is as mentally tough as anyone he knows. He’s not a fist-pumper or a meltdown guy or a loudmouth. Don’t mistake emotional displays for toughness.
Well said. I think Heilman will tough it out and I think Zen’s numbers prove that – he gets better as the season rolls. I am fan of Heilman and I know he is going through a rough spell so I won’t give up on him. His stats show he is one of the better relievers in the long run.
Why doesn’t our owners son bitch to the tabloids that Heilman should be starting instead of set-up man? Oh right. He’s not a loud mouth moronic a-hole.
Why are we constantly giving Heilman a pardon. He stinks and Sosa is even worse. Sanchez, Smith, Show, and Feliciano are all better alternatives in a close game. Bring Kunz up and trade Heilman and Milledge for Manny. (Oh I forgot we didn’t pull the string on that deal) Aaron will haunt the Mets the same way Benitez did in the 90’s. Aaron if you’re reading, get outta Queens bum!!
Heilman’s not getting a pardon. Level-headed fans are merely showing restraint. If we ran every relief pitcher who had a bad streak out of town, there would be no one left in the league.
Relievers are expected to have short memories; fans have no excuse!
i think we need to stop bashing heilman, because he will come around and all of the nay sayers will have nothing to say when in june and july he’s posting stats something along the lines of “10 straight appearances with no runners on base” or something like that
…better yet, (and i wonder what other people think) why do we bash our 8th inning man and not our carloses? I was listening to the game on the radio last night and they were talking about how combined, beltran and delgado are like 8 for 60-something in the past week of games…. beltran and delgado need to start swinging their bats. maybe we should look at the problem before we start looking at heilman’s problem….. with wright and reyes getting on base as much as they have been, it’s all insignificant if the cleanup men cannot deliver. now i understand zambrano was incredible last night, but this has been an issue dating back to the brewers series.
lets hear some thoughts
I agree. It always seems Beltran is watching strike 3 pass him up and Delgado, well you know that story.
I actually thought Heilman looked good last night. Somtimes you gotta give credit to the opposing team for capitalizing on an error and really working their at-bats.
Reyes makes that play and most likely its a 1-2-3 inning.
definately. there’s something to be said about loading the bases when two of the batters didn’t even earn their way on, then getting a strikeout then a popout. hat tip to ronny cedeno for capitalizing on heilmans mistake.
I was at the game last night, so didn’t get the best look at Heilman’s pitches, but was he really that ineffective?
Hitting Ramirez was not great, obviously, but better that than serve a meatball to their 2nd best hitter. Other than that, Lee being on base is on #7, he made pitch after pitch to Fukudome who finally broke through on (I think) pitch 9 or 10 (sometimes the hitter should get the credit), and got two KEY outs with bases loaded and a hostile crowd (though, sadly, perhaps not as hostile as Shea these days). Then the single to Cedeno rather than what should have been the 4th out.
How can we lay this at Heilman’s feet? Besides, wasn’t this the same guy who bailed us out on Sat? Did he all of a sudden get “heart” and “guts” for a day and then lose it?
the pitch to cedeno was a 2 seemer and it didn’t tail enough inside and it was left over the plate. just a nice piece of hitting on a mistake pitch
Nicely put. I agree.
Aaron Heilman is not a clutch performer. Carlos Beltran does not enjoy playing at Shea. If it weren’t for Julio Franco insisting that Beltran acknowledge the curtain call a couple of years back Beltran would be hated even more by Mets fans. He didn’t even want to play here, just ask the Yanks who declined his counter offer. Fact: Mets are a better road team (what does that say for the make up of this team) Delgado was a beast but now he’s purely a singles hitter and why he isn’t batting 6th or 7th is beyond me. The Mets have issues and until they are addressed J-Roll and the Phils are the team to beat. Are you kidding me, Chase Utley is better today than any current Met ever was, along with MVP J-Roll and former MVP Howard those bastards have a sick lineup. Romero and Lidge is more formidable than Heilman and Wagner (numbers don’t lie)
Yeah Howard is having a record breaking season. He’s on pace to pass his own record for most strikeouts in a season.
“Romero and Lidge is more formidable than Heilman and Wagner (numbers don’t lie)”
You’re talking about using a sample of 18 games this year. Using that logic I could say that Mike Jacobs (6HRs) is a better slugger than David Ortiz (2HRs).
Numbers do lie. I can cherry pick stats to back up any point.
“Not a clutch performer”
Your right, he only finished 5th in the league in apearences last year, all in the 7th and 8th innnigs, and posted an ERA+ of 140.
“Beltran does not like to play at shea”
Who cares? Why does it matter where he likes to play? All that matters is that at the end of the year he will hit .275/360/555 and play gold glove center field. I dare to you find a better center fielder in baseball besides ichiro.
“Romero and Lidge are more formidable than heilman and wagner”
Realy? What is this based on? You argue that heilman isnt clutch, but Brad Lidge is? If you remember Molina, than surely you remember pujols. And J.C. Romero? Wow he is so good he got released in the middle of the season last year.
Wagner: 182 ERA+ 1.3 K per inning 1.01 WHIP
Heilman 130 ERA+ .85 K per innng 1.28 WHIP
Lidge 135 ERA+ 1.3 K per inning 1.20 WHIP
Romero 110 ERA+ .80 K per inning 1.5 WHIP
Yeah, that Phills Bullpen is awesome. It’s realy just a 7 inning game.
(Heilmans numbers are skewerd cause i just did his career numbers, and those include his god-awful starts)
Maybe the Jacket needs to run biorhythms on Heilman before every game so Willie will know which Aaron we’ll get that night.
i dont like heilman much but would never boo him…i go to almost every game and dont believe that booing my own team is going to improve things…however if heilman doesnt start pitching better there are going to be quite a few of the boohappy fans getting on him…
Delgado and Castillo have done much more damage than Heilman this year. Beltran’s struggled, but he always gets going. The other two, I’m no so sure about.
Willie is doing to Heilman what Torre did to Proctor a few years ago. He’s gonna burn him out by the all-star break. I’m not a big Heilman fan, but you can’t pitch the guy in 12 out of 18 games (66%). Heilman’s currently leading MLB in appearances.
I don’t think Heilman was really bad at all last night. He was throwing serious heat with good control. Maybe he can use more movement on his pitches.. I don’t know, but I think it was freakishly good contact hitting that did him in.
I get the feeling the Mets didn’t like Milledge personally, so despite his obviously huge talent, they traded him. They DO seem to like Heilman, so even though he royally sucks, we keep seeing him. What is this, a baseball team or the Elks club? I want these guys to win the world series, not a popularity contest!
Aaron Heilman inspires no confidence whatsoever.
Why do people think Heilman will be a good starter? He only has 2 pitches and that means he will be a 5 inning pitcher at BEST. He is OK when he is on, but horrible when he’s not. Just too much of a liability in the pen. I would let him go when he becomes a free agent.
Great points, Matt. Spot on, on all accounts…
Willies part in the loss was A. Batting church 6th and not playing pagan, and B. Bringing in Sosa with men on. Sosa is good when e comes in with the bases empty, he’s not a guy who can come in and put out fires.
pagans been worse than the hated castillo of late, and endy had a good history against zambrano. bad decision? and sosa was a logical choice there. down by 3, your probably hopin for nothing more than extra innings, and with a tired pen sosa could go more than 1 batter. if nothing else it would have been a crap shoot as to who could put out the fire. its not like anyone expected the power hittin phenom pie to go yard.
the only thing that could have saved heilman from this backlash is if it was castillo who committed that error. then at least hed be takin a bunch of flack for the inning. but god forbid anyone take reyes to task for this one. lets face it, it was a team loss. even the almighty wright failed to come through.
I agree that it was a team loss, but I don’t understand the Reyes comment. Reyes’s error creating a man on 1st, 0 out situation. Is that so traumatic for a top reliever? It’s not like our infield is constantly giving pitchers reasons to lose confidence in them.
Heilman seems most comfortable with no one on and the team leading. I suppose that’s obvious – we all would. But whenever that is not the case I start to get nervous, and it seems like he does too.
im not really slammin reyes there. but he was a cause for that inning goin so awry. not the only reason, but 1 of em. if castillo makes that error and they give up an inning like that, i bet castillo is castrated by the fans because he aint the popular one.
Aaron Heilman needs to be replaced. He is always blowing the Mets leads, and bringing them a lose. 11-10 isn’t the wins to loses to Mets want right now. A replacement reliever is very important for the Mets to start winning. If the Mets could get Delgado hitting, and maybe hideki ocajima or another good reliever they could go all the way. The bullpen is the main cause for concern.