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Willie Randolph, on whether he will consider moving Carlos Delgado down in the order, while speaking to reporters before the game:
“I think it’s way too early for that. I’m not ready to make any rash moves with Carlos. I’m trying to stay open-minded about the team in general, not just
Carlos, and as long as we pick each other up, we’ll win some ballgames.”
…well, that’s fine and it’s probably the right approach…for now…however, when Moises Alou returns, he has to hit fifth – with delgado batting sixth…
…in fact, Jose Reyes, followed by Ryan Church, David Wright, Carlos Beltran, Alou, Delgado, Brian Schneider, Luis Castillo and the pitcher, is actually a pretty good National-League lineup…as it breaks up the left-handed bats, puts more run production at the top of lineup, gets their best hitters more at bats, and allows castillo to essentially be a second leadoff hitter towards the bottom of the lineup, with the pitcher able to bunt him over…
For more on Delgado, read the New York Post, Journal News and the New York Times.
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So Matt, you like Church 2nd and Castillo 8th? I thought you were a fan of Castillo 2nd?
I said I feel Castillo is wasted if not hitting second, whereas Church can be productive and useful batting second and sixth.
However, if Castillo is going to continue to weakly ground out, and do nothing to advance a runner, then yes, I prefer he move to the bottom of the lineup.
I also noted how I believe how the lineup is structured is way, way overrated.
But don’t players often comment on feeling more comfortable in certain spots, etc.? Don’t stats bear that out? (that’s not a rhetorical question — I’m curious.)
church looked pretty comfortable in the 2-hole. and unlike castillo, he can actually hit.
castillo at his absolute best is a drag that high in the order, and slumping, he’s a lineup killer.
I know it would probably never happen, but bat Castillo 9th and the pitcher 8th.
That HAS TO BE the lineup. It is not that difficult to figure out. Just look at the results with Church batting second in the order. Reyes gets on base, they groove fastballs to Church because he is hitting ahead of Wright and Church makes them pay. That formula doesn’t work with Castillo because all he can do is hit choppers to the infield. Sick of it. Church is better than advertised and he has to be hitting second in this lineup.
Amen to that, Castillo is horrible from the left side, imagine all those doubles Church hits with Reyes on first… a quick 1-0 with a man in scoring position for Wright
luis is one of the purest number 2 hitters in the league- i would say second behind detroit’s placido palanco.
the job of a number two hitter is simple: move the leadoff man to second, or get on base if the leadoff man does not get on and let the big bats (wright beltran delgado) bring you in. Luis has that ability, he is an amazing bunter and an amazing slap hitter.
If beltran and delgado had been doing their jobs then you would see better results. this is not the American League you don’t need your number 2 man to rip pitches down the line.
Church is on fire, it will not last although i like what you said about better than advertised, i must agree with that.
i can’t wait for moises to come back. with the five man platoon in the OF beltran can get some rest that he obviously needs.
this would all be true in 1968 or 1985. in 2008 slap hitting, bunting, and moving runners over is wildly overrated.
it is 2008. we need our 2-hitter to rip pitches down the line, or at least hit them out of the outfield.
also, church is absolutely wasted beneath slumping beltran and punchless delgado. it is as if this lineup was constructed specifically to maximize men left on base and minimize runs scored. it’s ridiculous.
don’t want church batting second? fine. move wright or beltran up and have church hit cleanup when alou is back. i don’t care. just get the automatic outs out from between the guys who can actually hit so we can string innings together and score runs!
That is why you put Castillo 2nd is to break up the “automatic outs” with a guy that can hit 2nd and still be productive. Castillo will end up somewhere near .300 with at .370 OBP. Church most likely will not. He is much better as an RBI man and I will bet that you can get more RBI from the 5 spot than the 2.
Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Church, Alou, Delgado, Schnieder.
I actually like the idea of batting Church behind Beltran. It might work well if Alou doesn’t get off to a hot start…he’s got just enough speed to stay out of a double play or two…
Yeah, Derek Jeter batting second in the Yankees lineup for the last 10+ years has been purely to move the leadoff man over to second. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Church can be a great RBI threat in the 2 hole with Reyes leading off and with Castillo getting on batting 8th.
Yeah this should be the lineup. You know i always assumed our bench was a strong suit of our’s, however with endy and casanova in there and castillo hitting second, with all of delgado’s lack of rbi production and power.. this lineup is scary- but not in a good way. Last night I thought, if Reyes, Wright or Beltran don’t get a hit, we have no chance of getting anyone on or scoring any runs. That’s bad. Hopefully Alou will change this whole dynamic of the lineup, and Schneider will continue to surprise us.
and beltran isn´t helping the issue by looking at strike three all the time in preassure situations… i mean what happened to protecting the plate with two strikes??
We all know that all hitters are streaky, and Beltran is an extreme case. He’s slumping now, and in two weeks he’ll be carrying the team. Just the way it is with this guy. His strike zone judgment is clearly off right now.
i agree he needs to be more agressive. I understand he trying to walk more but kmon protect the plate.
I Agree 100%. What a coinsidence that when Chruch was batting second the Mets went on a five game winning streak. As soon as they put Castillo back in the two hole they lost three straight because the offense just stalled. Willy has really disappointed me and I’m starting to think the Mets will never reach that “next” level as long as Willy is managing.
I would disagree with you, Matt, and say that Alou has to bat 6th because it would protect Delgado and allow him some good pitches to hit, but I simply don’t have any faith in Delgado’s ability to hit those “good” pitches.
Delgado is such a sore spot right now. NYT has a good article on the travails of Andruw Jones today, about his prolonged slump, about how pitchers neutralize him by disabling his ability to pull the ball, etc. Seems there are some similarities to DG here. I am dying for this guy to turn it around yesterday, and be the force for us that he was in ‘06.
Going to the game today, and God knows I need a Mets victory!
Really hoping Delgado and Beltran make things happen today.
Sucks being at Wrigley when our Mets fall to the CUbs.
I agree, grotesmask, Delgado is very frustrating.
I don’t feel he’s got much left, but what do I know? What do you do when your power-bat first basemen doesn’t hit for power (or for much anything else) for an extended period of time?
The truth is there is really nothing the Mets can do at this point. Who’s going to play first?
Exactly right. The problem is that Delgado can’t no longer take advantgage of the “Good” pitches. They say in every at-bat a batter will see “One” good pitch to hit but the problem with Delgado is that he has lost some bat speed in his older age and he only now manages to foul off that one good pitch. This then puts him behind on the count at the pitcher’s mercy and then they just pitch him way outside or jam inside. No chance for him with the reduced bat speed. He’s done, he just won’t admit it and neither will the Mets front Office and powers to be. He is going to hurt us like no tomorrow and as long as he is clogging up the batting order the Mets offense will never reach it’s true potential.
Matt, you know this, and I know this, but will the manager know this?
I am on board with that lineup as well. However, if Castillo returns to form, it makes our lineup so much deeper to have Church in the 5 spot.
Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Church, Alou, Delgado, Schnieder.
For Castillo to bat 2nd, he needs to get his OBP back up to around .380 overall AND when runners are on.
.370 is fine, that would have been close to the best on the team last year and that is Castillo’s career averages. He has shown some flashes but he needs Reyes to be consistant as well. I just think our line up is much deeper with Church lower in the order but not behind Delgado.
so many ifs!
okay I am gonna go off topic right now, I wasn’t able to watch the whole game last night because of my softball league starting yesterday but all WFAN keeps talking about is Derek Lee and how the Mets should have protested the game, can someone please tell me what exactly did he do since they don’t explain it.
Lee was on third, and some1 hit it foul to third, lee picked it up before it passed third base
The only thing I can think of is when the Cubs had the bases loaded, Lee was on third and the batter weakly fouled it up the line and Lee scooped it up and tossed it to the side. The ball was very very foul, but as Gay and Keith had noted, it hadn’t passed the bag yet. Unless they are arguing that Lee should have been out by touching the ball, I’m not sure what there is to protest. Anyone know or have any ideas?
“Gay and Keith” should have read “Gary and Ron.” My bad.
you can’t touch the ball in foul territory as a runner before it passes the base. if you do, you are out. they did’t call it last night. willie didn’t catch it and the team didn’t protest, so it’s over.
Thats what I thought. When I was watching it I thought, “hmm, I wonder if he is supposed to be out,” but when Gary and Ron didn’t say anything I just assumed he wasn’t.
It’s a shame, if someone was doing their job last night, we go into the 9th down one run instead of six. More pressue on Wood…who knows what could have happened.
The Cubs would have won 2-1. That’s what would have happened.
Hold on, I’m confused. I thought you could touch the ball/the ball can touch you in foul territory…that’s the whole point of standing in foul territory while occupying third base.
I didn’t see that play, had an umpire already called the ball foul when Lee touched it?
Well, you can be “hit” by the ball in foul territory, but you cannot willing touch it.
I thought you just couldn’t interfere with a play. So if the umpires judged the ball to be unplayable, picking the ball up wouldn’t constitute an automatic out. I assume he didn’t pick it up next to the line or anything….
From MLB.com Rules.
A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, ouches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.
Unless Lee interfered with Wright trying to make a play, i.e. he ran up to the ball and touched it before Wright could, I believe it was a foul ball and no one missed the call. I can’t find any rule that says the runner can’t touch the ball while in foul territory.
The rule says you can’t touch it until it passes a base. Evan and Joe read the rule on air and nothing was mentioned about Umps discretion.
Now, if you want to make the case the it was an obvious foul ball and Lee was only clearing the ball with no ill-intend, you would be right.
But, if the Mets had argued (which would probably have been construed as desperate and bush league, anyway), they might have stolen the out.
That should obviously be “touches”…apparently I killed the t when I added the bold tag
weird, i can’t find anything that handles the particular situation that happened last night, but even and joe read something that did.
and,
they spoke with the cubs gm, who acknowledged the rule.
interesting…I will research further…
I TAKE IT ALL BACK!!!!
It is interference by a batter or a runner when—
(there are lots of reasons so I’ll just go ahead and list the one we care about…)
(b) He intentionally deflects the course of a foul ball in any manner;
This kind of seems like a stupid rule, since if the ball is foul his deflecting it doesn’t really affect the play….but still a rule’s a rule.
So unless an umpire had already ruled it a foul/dead ball, touching it intentionally should in fact be interference and thus an out.
I retract my comment about the rule being stupid. If a ball is rolling down either line and is in foul territory but intentionally touched by a runner/batter, clearly he should be called out for interference. I assume this isn’t what happened last night though…
Guys, the rule is there, and it’s solid, but that ball was about 5 feet foul and Lee touched it about 5 feet before the base. The only way that ball could go fair is if it magically took a sharp right turn and went for the bag. The ball was clearly going foul. It’s a moot point, and would have been a classless argument by Willie.
i know! i was listening and going crazy as they kept on talking about this play (which someone i missed) without actually describing the freaking play!
he picked up a weak rolling foul ball while on third. I don’t believe the ball would have rolled back fair but if it did happen to catch the lip of the grass it could have…i guess. either way he picked up a ball that was still in play and had yet to pass D wright or the third base bag….so no telling if it would have come back fair.
Cool, Thanks guys. Not that a protest ever gets overruled by MLB but who knows if the Mets did protest. Does anyone know why the Mets didn’t protest?
Willie doesn’t know the rule.
Willie gets paid to know the rules…he never protests anything…if this happened to the cubs you can bet sweet lou would have protested..willie fails again!
It was not a “weak rolling foul” – the ball was rolling pretty solidly and it was at least 5 feet away from the line. It was no where near the lip of the grass.
hmmm i missed this too…wha happened?
From your lips to God’s ears, Matt.
Yea Willie, it’s definitely too early to open the champaign. Come on, what is he waiting for?
Delgado has to GO! His production has greatly diminished. Is there a first baseman, the Mets should go after on the open market? Via trade? Via Free agency?
Not right now, he is the best option currently. Now if he continues to slide and the minor league kids are doing well I would bring up a platoon.
Yep, a platoon would work. Delgado is currently hitting .206 with 1 home run in 18 games. I have a hard time seeing someone like Carp not being able to exceed that.
maybe we should bring back Mo Vaughn, he´s still on the payroll!
Or Bobby Bonilla (also still on the payroll)
If Delgado doesn’t get better by next month, I say it’s time to start thinking about moving on…the low average last year was still OK considering that he’d occasionally hit a HR or drive someone in…this year he’s lost both power and average…I’d give him a month to pick himself up and then go the Frank Thomas route…
Can Pagan play first?
How about playing Alou at first and keeping Pagan in LF every day? Better defense in left, less chance of Alou hurting himself at first base, and better offense all around.
No way is Alou switching positions at age 42 and most likely his last season.
I fully agree. It was more of a hypothetical “what if.” But you’re definitely right.
no matter where Castillo is I just don’t want him bunting the FIRST pitch directly back to the pitcher. Can he please work the count and then roll it weakly to 2nd or right back to the pitcher.
and Delgado, i don’t care if you are trying to find your groove. if the other team is dumb enough to think you still have hitting skills and play a huge shift please just hit it the other way or BUNT it down the third base line so we get base runners and then perhaps are able to drive in some more runs!
I think replacement options like Teixeira is too costly. And moving Alou to 1st base would be a complete disaster.
I say, Mets try to sign Adam Dunn after the season is over, or even trade for him if the Reds are out of the race. Adam Dunn is currently having a horrible year so hes expendable for the Reds. Mets could get him by only trading guys like Niese and possibly Evans or Carp.
For his career, Adam Dunn averages 100 runs scores, which is cool with me if he does that with the Mets. He walks a ton and stirkes out a ton. He can crush the ball a mile too. Mets have some decent homerun hitters on the club, but no distinguished homerun hitters. They had one in Delgado two years ago, but not anymore. We need some pop at the 5th spot, especially if Alou is gone after the season and we have a rookie F-Mart replacing him.
great post. i LOVE dunn. my only concern is that he doesn’t help the overwhelming lefthandedness of this lineup.
not that i advocate this move, but if he’s replacing delgado, he isn’t hurting the overwhelming lefthandedness of this lineup either
Alou on first Base is the answer. That we he won’t have an opportunity to get hurt.
What are you talking about? Alou will get hurt brushing his teeth in the morning. I don’t recall one injury he had while actually playing in the outfield…
But I wouldnt give up on Delgado just yet. A lot of people assume hes a quick starter just because he mashed the ball in April-May of 2006 to carry the Mets early in the year. Most power hitters are slow starters anyways. Teixeira has an average under .260 in April and hes having a bad season so far too. Only great power hitters like Manny and Pujols dont have early season struggles. Just look at Ortiz right now. He eventually got out of it. It might take Delgado longer, but the season is a marathon anyways not a sprint. Im willing to take those homers when they count down the stretch.
Reyes
Church
Wright
Beltran
Alou
Schneider
Castillo
Delgado
Pitcher
That would be a good line – up….I loved Delgado in 06 and parts of 07…But its soooo obvious he must go after this year , if not …maybe b4..cant we trade him back to the Blue Jays for one of their young arms?? Move Wright to 1st and bring up a 3rb Baseman like Murphy??
If we’re giving up on Delgado to the extent he’s hitting eighth, they should get rid of him and bring in someone, anyone, who is a good defender at first. Personally, I’m not ready to do that quite yet. Delgado needs another month, at least, unless the slump gets deeper.
As bad as delgado is, castillo is worse! No way you bat castillo 7th……
Delgado might still be ok, but he should be moved lower in the order… But what about Beltran, should he stay in the cleanup spot, it worked last year, but he is not hitting much either and i don´t see anybody ripping him like they do Delgado.
because Beltran isn’t “done” like people think Delgado is, he’s just in a slump, which happens, in a week or so Beltran will be having huge games and carrying this team, and by the end of the year will have 35 HRs and 100 RBIs and 100 Runs, thats just how Beltran does it.
let us not forget about delgados longggggggggggg slumps in ‘06 as well. he started strong and finished strong, but there were countless times during the year when he would be in week long slumps. Willie better bat church second again… but of course he’ll use the excuse that, “its a lefty”… yeah willie, and church is batting like .500 against lefties.
Castillo is not hitting well enough to be in the 2 hole. However, I would expect to him to hit .290 over the course of the season.. The only thing missing from his game in the last few seasons has been stolen bases, and so far he’s off to a better than average start.
I would rather have him get on base and clear the pitchers spot. batting second, he will have a hard time driving Reyes in from second on a single to the OF.
We may be able to survive Delgado’s declining skillset. I’m hoping he’ll warm up and give us 20-80. Sure Tex would be the best option. Banking on Carp, Evans or maybe Dan Murphy (have him switch corners) is hoping for too much too soon. Adam Dunn is intriguing because of the RF overhang. This ain’t Shea anymore.
The Pirates have a young kid in their system named Steve Pearce. He’s blocked by Adam LaRoche at 1st, and they’re converting him to RF. Maybe he or more likely, X could be available later this year.
I agree with the posters. Confidence rating reflects performance. the Willie meter really reflects Willie. Did he study under Caey Stengle? A lot of crap comes from his lips.
He could win the Worls Series, and I would still want him frar away from my team.
Who cares about the Pirates? Pirates have had tons of top prospects over the past 5 years who have been pure crap, after tons of hype. Bryan Bullington, Sean Burnett, John VanBenshoten, Brad Eldred, Tike Redman…..? Those are just a few. The Pirates farm system is a complete mess (thanks to Dave Littlefield). I wouldnt trust anyone Littlefield has brought on to the club. Pirartes have done a good job building a pitching staff from their farm (Gorzellany, Maholm, Snell and Duke) but position players has been an issue. Guys like Jason Bay and Freddy Sanchez were both drafted by other teams and were throw ins in trades when they came to the Pirates. Never trust this team with hitting, unless they prove us otherwise.
I don’t know if you just misread Agee’s post but he’s talking about the impact of these prospects making Nady available which is very relevant. My brother and several of my cousins are Pirates fans and it seems to be well known that the Pirates are going to move an outfielder to make room for their outfield prospects. The relevance is not in whether their prospects pan out, just whether they make Nady available.
I did misread..Thanks for picking that up. But why would the Mets need X-man. Whats with the Mets fans love affair with Nady? He was an average player for the Mets in 06, but somehow he became a legend overnight when he didnt do anything significant.
I would still take Church over Nady any day. Church is a better hitter and brings a lot more to the table. Mets dont need an extra corner outfielder with F-Mart, Alou and Pagan probably patrolling LF the next year or two. And you cant count on Nady to play first. Im not a big fan of right handed throwing 1st baseman.
Such as Delgado, Pujols, Giambi…..
There are many RH 1B in the league. All most teams care is can you drive in runs. They usually don’t think too much about D at 1B anymore.
Reyes
Pagan
Wright
Beltran
Delgado
Easley
Clark
Casanova
Figueroa
well at least he stacked all his automatic outs together OF WHICH THERE ARE FIVE
this is the lineup i would use…if i was manipulating the CPU’s lineup in a video game before i played against it.
actually, i take it back, castillo isn’t playing so we have to win.
but seriously willie, you sit church against the lefty but not delgado? come on.
While I agree, based on the bench if Castillo sits against a LH then who plays 1st and 2nd? Easley is your RH IF guy and he can’t play both positions.
then marlon should have started one of the past two games against a righty to give castillo the day off so he could play today and easley could spell delgado.
but that would require thinking ahead.
Well, again, I see your point but Castillo had good career numbers against Zambrano as did Chavez which is why they started. I don’t like the lineup any more than you do but I do understand it.
Willie knows his guys. Trust him.
I can’t do this with a straight face. . . .
Daniel Murphy to 3rd base.?!? I’m sorry guys, but this talk is getting really ridiculous. There is no way a gold glove 3rd baseman is gonna move to 1st base after the season. And what makes people think Murphy will be any better at 3rd base. Playing the hot corner in the majors is much different than the minors. The ball comes at you much faster and your reaction time will suck. Murphy has no business in the Mets roster. Actually his production gives us some trade bait when we need another reliever or backup 1st baseman down the road.
Murphy’s a thirdbasemen now. Have Murphy switch to the right side of the infield. Wright isn’t going anywhere. If the kid murphy can hit and he’s blocked, give him a chance to succeed
I have seen Murphy play..the kid has serious skills..and a lil pop….he will be a Major League talent in 2 years….but I mean cmon …could it really hurt to do with him what we did with Wright?? If Wright moves to 1st, no more throwing errors…and he will be solid there…..and If Murphy comes in and succeeds we can trade Delgado for a AA arm or 2 ..of course we will need to eat his salary too……just a thought ..this is all based on him suckin this bad for 4-6 more weeks.
Im telling you..There is no way Murphy is gonna be any better than Wright at 3rd base. Unless hes Scott Rolen which I highly doubt.
Name any infielders the past 5 years that have played superb defense coming out of the minors..There arent that many. Probably only Troy Tulowitzki and Asdrubal Cabrera. Those are the only ones that come into mind.
Playing infield in the majors is a hard thing to do. It would take Murphy a lot of years to develop…just like Wright. Remember how bad of a defender Reyes was when he came up in 2003. There were at least 5 occassions that rookie year when Reyes had a ball go between the wickets. Now hes learned to keep his glove down, but its taken him nearly 4 seasons to get there. Im not willing to wait on Murphy. That might sound impatient but its the best thing for the team. We have already solidified our left side of the infield, there is no need to mess things up.
And Wright is too short to play 1st base. He wont be able to catch balls above his head.
Moving Wright to first to cut down on bad throws may look decent on paper, but it’s a lousy idea. Position changes are iffy, and Wright has excellent range, charges well, and seems comfortable at third. First base is a very different position, and Wright is right-handed, of course.
Moving Wright to first to make room for Dan Murphy is ludicrous. The guy is in AA and it’s April, and already we’re wondering if we can move one of the best players in baseball to make room for him? If anybody should move, it’s Murphy. You just don’t mess with David like that, and endure him having to learn a new position at the ML level while you’re relying on him to drive in runs. And, of course, there’s no guarantee, whatsoever, that Murphy would be any sort of improvement. This is just silly, in my opinion. Take it for what it’s worth.
there has to be an asterisk next to wright’s gold glove. now, don’t get me wrong, i love the guy, but he is NO gold glover. he’s a nice, slightly above average, fielder. no more, no less.
I think the gold glove comes with an asterisk.
You know, there were so many questions over the past few months as to what was causing Reyes’ slump. People blamed Ricky Henderson, and Castillo’s late night partying having a negative influence.
Anyone else notice that aside from Beltran’s talk, Jose went on FIRE with Church batting behind him, and now has come back to earth with Church stuck in the bottom of the order instead of a fierce top of the order, we get nothing but stranded baeserunners every inning.
I’d rather give the pitcher an automatic easy inning against our 7, 8, 9 then give them a complete game shutout because reyes, church and wright are too far apart in the order.
Omar, you’ve done so much for this team. Please do us just one last thing, put your foot down on this idiot. Either make him manage right, or get him away from this championship calibur theam that you’ve constructed and we’re all watching go to waste.
Mets are 8-0 when Castillo does NOT bat second and 2-8 when Castillo hits second in the lineup. (From WFAN Evan and Joe.)
Ummm…..
Once upon a time, in a land far far away, there were players on the Mets who hit balls out of the infield.
Occasionally, when the stars aligned, even a HOME RUN was witnessed. Alas, those fabled days seem to be long behind us. . .