An anonymous reader of MetsBlog sent in an e-mail, asking:
“Can I get an explanation on why when Oliver Perez gets two outs and looks like he might get through the inning, Willie takes him out. That’s gotta make Perez feel awful that Willie takes him out like that right after he gets two outs! Last
year, if Tom Glavine had the same exact game going, willie definitely keeps him in there for the final out, he cant say he treats his player the same…Also I need an explanation as to why Willie won’t give Heilman and Sosa a rest…they can’t pitch every game.”
…i think it’s fairly obvious at this point that willie would rather push a player through a slump than sit him down…i don’t like this philosophy, and i sense most fans agree…as i said the other day, like with Carlos Delgado, it may help to just take a breather and have them clear their minds…
…heilman’s problem, though, isn’t rest, from what i understand…it’s that he is over-using his change-up, not keeping his fastball down and he’s not using his slider enough…i mean, he threw a 96–mph fastball last night, which is impressive, but it was four feet off the plate, which is not impressive…
…willie clearly believes that by running him out there, heilman will get it together…the thing is, while i may not know a better approach, i think it’s safe to say that this one being used by willie is not working…
…as for perez…i guess you and i were watching two different games…perez was coming totally apart on the mound…and this isn’t the first time that this has happened…it’s actually becoming a habit with him…he’s staked to a lead, cruising, he walks a batter and then all hell breaks loose…i actually give willie credit for pulling him…the problem is that this occurs so early in the game, relief pitchers then have to be married beyond a point when they should be removed from the game…i mean, if a starting pitcher starts to implode in the seventh, instead, Scott Schoeneweis can pitch to one batter, instead of needing him to pitch a full inning or two, and so on, and so maybe Jorge Sosa and heilman can actually get some rest…
…notice how this is rarely a problem when Johan Santana pitches…not just because santana has great stuff, but because he commands the game in a way that gets him and his team in a position to play from their strengths – even if he does not have his best stuff…this is not to say that John Maine, Oliver Perez, etc, must go out and win Cy Youngs, it means they need to command their innings better so to give willie more options and to allow the bullpen more breathing room to do what it does best…
{ 78 comments }
Matt, actually, Perez is a roller coaster, not just in games, but in innings. If you were going to pull him then not why when he had 1st and 2nd and no outs? Why let him get 2 outs and THEN pull him? He got 2 outs and maybe he gets the hitter to make a mistake. You, yourself say “…i think it’s fairly obvious at this point that willie would rather push a player through a slump than sit him down”…why not with Perez in that inning. Why show no confidence in his ability to get out of it? Its not the first time…he has never shown confidence in Perez, who has good stuff, but keeps going to Heilman and Sosa who are on the verge of a “tired arm”.
I have no idea. I guess there is some magical pivot point for Willie that none of us get, me included, which is why we all get so frustrated with the way he handles the bullpen.
I have given up trying to understand – as I have written about before.
I have no interest in trying to read minds, and predict coin flips, which is what Bullpen Analysis has become these days – not just for the Mets, by the way, but with all teams.
Do yourself a favor and read other team blogs. They are all essentially having the exact same discussion.
This is what it is to watch a major-league bullpen, regardless of who is pitching and who is calling the shots.
Get used to it, because no personnel or managerial change will make it stop.
I think you are spot on in your analysis, Matt.
I am no defender of Willie but what can he do in that situation?
Ollie has more than a track record of collapsing, seemingly out of nowhere, and if he gets left in and Milledge hits a hr willie would be burned in effigy.
What I do not understand is how Rick cannot get inside Ollie’s head. That seems to be one riddle he cannot solve.
Ollie was battling through it for 2 innings at that point. He was ONE OUT away from finishing the inning. He just got an easy groundout the last batter he faced. No need to pull him there.
If he stayed in and gave up the lead at that point, I would have understood. You can’t keep going to the pen in the 6th … especially Heilman … who has been used the most in the league, and not effective at all.
I don’t disagree with you…
I did not necessarily agree that willie should have pulled him, all i am saying is that had ollie given up the grandslam then willie would have been criticized for not getting him out of there.
Also, I thought that willie demoting heilman in a backhanded way might have lit a fire in his a**, but clearly it did not.
Yeah I know … lots of people would have second guessed it if that were the case.
It just seems that whenever there is a decision to be made, Willie chooses the worst choice of 3.
Lol…you are right about that.
If you really look at this team can anyone really think that they are better than a .500 team?
They are the oldest team in the league, injury prone, they lack depth, their manager is a yankee, they run the team like the yankees did between ‘01-’06…
they do have some awesome talent and wright is turning into a consistent mvp candidate (hasn’t seen too many pitches since Philly), but is it enough to get 90+ wins?
Right now … they’re not that good. They have a lot of problems that need to be addressed … and not ignored.
“their manager is a yankee”
I love you you threw that in.
its funny that people think the mets are a .500 team but all you have to do is win 9 more games than you lose and your a 90 win Division winning team. Every team is going to have their ups and downs so you have to be patient. Its a marathon and all the Mets need is another 5 game winning streak and to win a couple series 2-1 and they’ll be 9 games above .500 and on the pace for 90 wins.
Actually you cant finish an odd number above .500 in a 162 games can you? Plus 8 games over would be 85 wins right?
I think he meant .500 as in winning nine more than 81 games.
yes thank you I meant 81-81 is .500 you only have to win 9 of those 81 loses to finish with 90 wins. A 90 win team will lose 72 games and still be considered the Division champ. To win 90 games the Mets just have to finish 79-62 so strap in ladies and gentlemen, we still have 62 loses to suffer thru!
i agree Matt. We better get used to these kinds of things happening all season long. And we better start getting behind our players, because if we don’t, who will?
Matt One Simple Question.. WHERE WAS JOE SMITH?
He was overused last year and was lost for the second half of the season, lets not have that happen again! Where is Wise so we can send Sosa down to AAA or even send Heilman down until he can get his crap together.
I know this is the wrong way to handle this but maybe this is frustration talking.
I would not pull O.P. until he gets 7 innings out of it. Outcome be damned. Its only the first month of the season and he is already burning the bullpen out. Your bull pen is struggling and the starters need to put their shoulders to the wheel and pick up the slack.
I think we may see the starters going an extra inning this week. There is an off day on Thursday, so starting with Figueroa’s start on Sunday we may see 6.1-7 full innings out of our starters. They’ll have one extra day of rest, so their fragile arms will be able to take the stress of the extra 9 pitches.
What is this world coming to when a guy on the brink of free agency and will almost certainly get a big pay day, can’t get through 6 innings. Conspiracy theory #1: maybe the Mets are trying to sabotage his free agency (sarcasm).
haha sabotage his free agency- love it. if OP continues at this rate, even scott boras wont be able to get him a fat pay check.
i agree with you coolpapabell. I think that sometimes you gotta take a loss on the chin like Wakefield did for the Sox in the playoffs in ‘04 when he pitched a complete game loss, and gave up like 9 runs, but gave their bullpen a much needed rest. It is only our first lost to Washington, and I’d have liked to see Perez pitch deep into the seventh maybe even the eighth. And who cares if he would have given up ten runs? we are not going to go 18-0 vs any divisional team. There is such thing as a productive loss, and although i am usually a defender of willie, I would disagree with his decision to pull Perez last night.
Aaron Heilman is a psychological mess. He is the product of a situation that the Mets created. They have totally mishandled him.
Baseball players are not robots. You can only force a guy to do something he doesn’t want to do for so long … it only takes you so far. He knows there is no end in sight since he’s under the teams control for a couple more years and it’s having an obvious psychological effect on him. You can just see it.
The Mets had 2 options:
1) Give him a chance to start in the past 2 seasons, and address the bullpen accordingly. They had 2 off seasons to do this.
2) TRADE HIM. They had 2 off seasons to do this. In 06 he had value. In 07 he had less value. Now … his value is plummeting. They should have just traded him while they could have turned him into something good via trade.
Now they, and we, have to deal with the situation that they created. Terrible job by the Mets all around.
They should free Aaron Heilman, but I agree with Ron Darling. They should put him in blowout games so he can start refining those other pitches he has. They are on to his little change-up game. He needs to uses his other pitches. Additionally, if he wants to be a starter, he is going to need them.
What are these “blow-out” games you speak of?
he is the reason for the blowout games
He and Jorge “Hanging Slider ” Sosa.
I call him “Salami Sosa”.
If Jorge Sosa pitches to Jorge Posada and Posada takes him deep…what would John Sterling say?
Totally agree. I feel his confidence is gone because he was never given the chance to start while they were sending out the likes of Lima, Gonzalez, Williams, & Co.
I think its at the point where he doesn’t care anymore…I think he’s gone when he gets the chance. Is this his last year or next?
I definitely don’t think he’s doing it on purpose … I think it’s a subconscious thing. The problem for him is I’m pretty sure he’s under control until 2010 or 2011. He’s stuck and he knows it … there is nothing he can do about it.
The Mets have done both him, and the team a tremendous disservice.
I really think they need to look into moving him, and I would think that he would still have value. He’s shown he can be a solid reliever, and hell, someone out there might think that he can start too. We’ve got arms that can replace him, so maybe we can get a decent prospect for him.
Then again, I’ve had fantasies about blowing the team up Florida Marlin style and starting completely over with Wright, Reyes, Santana, and Maine, so what do I know? Knee-jerk? Probably, but it makes me feel better after games like last night’s.
I agree with you … they can still get something for him … but what could they have gotten for him 2 years ago? That’s the whole thing. They could have gotten so much more for him then, but it was more important for the Mets to impose their will on him.
I think at this point, they really have to trade him.
Would you rather have Manny Ramirez in left field (for Milledge) or Brian Schneider and Ryan Church?
Taking nothing away from Schneider and Chuch, but Manny would have looked pretty good there for the past 2 years.
Never mind the fact that, like Arod this past offseason, Manny was never truly available to the Mets.
Just a little fantasy cooked up by us fans like the whole “Billy Beane likes Milledge” comments which Beane only said when Milledge was drafted by the Mets in 2003 and never repeated.
Manny was never available in a deal for Milledge and a package?
I would say he was as available as Shockey is. Listen to offers, but have to get your socks knocked off.
Can some one other than Johan go 7 innings? Please just give me 7. O.P. better buck up if he wants to get paid. Last night’s game went exactly like the start prior to that. O.P. cruises, then in the 6th he can’t get that last friggin out.
Pelf, please, remember 7 not 6 but 7.
Pretty please 7!
I guess there are actually 2 main problems with the bullpen. The SPs, and the offense.
If the SPs (other than Santana) would occasionally go at least 7 (or gasp, 8!) innings, they could get some rest, and settle into some kind of routine. Giving up less runs, and not imploding in the 5th inning would also help.
The offense also has a hand in this. If they would have big output games once in a while, the pen could also relax and the mop up guys get some work.
Instead, you have everyone coming into pressure situations with the game on the line in the 5th inning, and no margin for error.
Sure, they are paid to get outs, but it does wear them out eventually, and the failures are certainly magnified.
It really is sickening to see our starters go 5+, day in and day out. Roy Halladay is on my fantasy team. His last two starts have been complete game losses….and he is 31.
That is the kind of pitcher I want on my team. Someone who is tough and doesn’t want to be taken out of games. It seems like we have a bunch of Steve Trachsel/Greg Maddux type pitchers who pull themselves.
Willie needs to stop coddling them and making them finish what they started. Try it for a week and see how it goes. But maybe Willie was afraid of Ollie hitting a few batters to force in runs, a la his infamous Friday, Sept 29th start vs. Florida last year.
it is the Mets fault that Heilman sucks? He is not a starter period. PERIOD. the guy has one pitch with two speeds and he throws them each with some, but not total effectiveness.
No one mishandled him, he is just a crybaby who after being told years ago he is not a starter whines and complains and then pitches poorly to get attention….you know like a 5 year old. grow up Aaron, pitch well and when your Arb. years are up go be a starter for the Rangers.
Agreed. Everyone seems to keep living off of the memory of the 1 hitter he thew a few years back. He was best suited to be a reliever, whether he liked it or not. And if his confidence is gone, then he isn’t cut out for NY baseball…>PERIOD
Does it bother any one else (or has any one noticed) that heilman shakes his arms after a ball and/or homerun?
Every time he does that I feel like throwing my remote through the tv…
You sound like the cry baby. I would have preferred that they traded him 2 years ago and got something of value for him. That would have been best for the team.
This is a no win situation now. That’s how they mis handled him.
Same thing with Milledge?
Well, I actually liked the Milledge trade … but yeah … 2 years ago they could have gotten a lot more for him too.
I liked the trade too…I wonder where this team would be without Church or Schneider.
They would be in last place.
I wanted to agree with the previous writer in that Willie Randolph coached the Mets out of that game last night. You cannot pull Oliver Perez for Aaron Heilman in that situation. Heilman is garbage, its been years where he fails consistently in big situation even if his year ending ERA isn’t too bad. Sosa should be a long man not a middle reliever, his 7+ ERA backs that up. But what it comes to is that Randolph is absolutely terrible. He sticks with players at the cost of more losses. Carlos Delgado is about as embarassing an at bat as the Mets could walk up to the plate, but no one cares. And How many at bats does Carlos Beltran have to strike out looking or not even swing that bat, especially with runners on before someone addressing his paltry 220 average? The rotation is good and the rest of the staff is brutal. Thier bullpen is embarassing, Schoenweis is a career 5 ERA he gets a 3 year deal, Feliciano is solid, Wager is solid even Joe Smith and Duaner Sanchez are solid. But the Mets will not win a championship with Schoenweis, Heilman and Sosa in that bullpen. Willie goes to them more than anyone. He is the worst manager in the National League. He was an AL guy anyway. Until Delgado, Heilman and Willie go this team is hopeless. Omar needs to sign a middle reliever or too. Spend the money on a David Riske or a Ron Mahay or someone not with career stats resembling Schoenweis. They can play all the games but they have no shot this season. Delgado is worthless and the pen is even worse and Randolph is too stupid to ever address either of those things becasue he is HORRIBLE.
I would not group in Schoenweis in the guys Willie goes to more than anyone (at least this year). He’s been using him the way most of us hoped he would, as a situational lefty. He’s pitched in 9 games and only gone 5.3 innings. This is the only way he can be effective (and he has been for the most part). The biggest problem with him is that he somehow got a reputation of being able to get out lefties and righties, which he can’t.
I also think it’s a good sign that it looks like Willie has made Duaner the 8th inning guy already, it shows that he is not quite as stuborn as many claim he is. I agree that Sosa has to go, and hopefully he will if and when Wise gets back. If Heilman is still struggling this much when Pedro gets back, I would have no problem moving Figueroa to the pen and sending Heilman down to get his stuff together.
Somehow, I don’t recall Willie being named GM. So as the manager he has to work with the players he has. If you want to whine about Delgado and Heilman and Show fine, but then you have a manager with a 22 man roster. How would you like Willie to address those issues exactly?
Okay, so you want to sit Delgado AND Beltran?? Now with Delgado, at least you’ve got a debatable point, although as bad as he’s going right now, I think it’s a little too early to sit him. Another month of this…and I may agree with you.
But Beltran? He’s slumping, but what are your optiions? Endy? Do you think he’s going to give you a lot? Beltran is one of the best CF’s in the game, he’ll come out of it. Plus, it doesn’t help that he’s seeing crap because they’re not afraid to walk him with Delgado behind him.
Guys, I know we’re frustrated with the loss and the way the team is playing in general, but let’s be realistic here. They’re not going to sit Beltran for more than a game or so, and they’re not going to just release Delgado. For the foreseeable future, this is the team. We’ve got to hope they get better. The ability is there. It’s up to them to use it.
Has anyone heard anything about Matt Wise? I know he was elligible to come of the DL yesterday. I really thought he was going to be a big help this year. As bad as Heilman has been, I have to think he will come around and do what he has done the last few years, but I have no faith in Sosa whatsoever. A pen of Wagner, Sanchez, Feliciano, Wise, Heilman, Smith and Schoenweis doesn’t sound too bad. Also, when Pedro comes back, Figgy can become the long man if he is still pitching well and someone in the pen is struggling.
Unless Wise can be the long man, then you need Sosa in there in case Ollie implodes in the third inning…
The real solution is to stop using Sosa in middle relief. Get Joe and Feliciano in there a little more…
Who do you send down then when Wise gets back? I would hate to see them keep Sosa in favor of Smith, though I do see your point about needing a long man.
I’m just saying I think it’s a crap situation. Right now I’d probably send Aaron down to get his sh*t together and hopefully bring him back with better command, control, etc…
There have got to be other pitchers of Sosa’s ilk available, either in AAA or elsewhere. Throwing him in the game is essentially conceding. We have wrung all the value we’re gonna get from him, he needs to go.
I am starting to wonder if we don’t go far enough with our blame. Yes Willie mis manages the game and the palyers ultimately have to perform. But does some of the blame need to start being placed on Peterson? It is his pitching staff that has under achieved the last two years and maybe he isn’t the pitching genius everyone always plays him to be. I am curious what others think about this.
I agree that Peterson does deserve ALOT of the blame. His pyramid of life is not working. But ultimately, doesn’t Willie have veto power? Thats why he gets the blame first.
Oh agreed, I think Willie is first and foremost when it comes to blame for situations but Peterson is definitely turning these guys into under achievers.
Willie may get “veto” power as you call it, but if the problem is execution then I agree that fault should lie with Peterson. Is Willie supposed to tell the pitchers how to pitch? If you don’t like how/when a pitcher is used, blame Willie. If you don’t like how a pitcher is performing, blame the pitcher and/or Peterson.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
Meanwhile, Leo Mazzone is commentating games somewhere.
If there is a managerial change…hypothetically of course…how about Mazzili and Mazzone?
I hope you just suggest this because of the Mazz thing. Lee Mazzili is an idiot.
Rick Peterson is a moron….He doesnt get along with anybody and runs great players out of NY…he was the reason we lost Kazmir if you remember….He is overrated because he had great young talent in Oakland….
We can find plenty to criticize about Willie, but the Perez thing is not one of them. Ollie is impossible to figure out when he has these problems…Willie has tried to yanking him early and last night he hung with him. You guys who think Willie pulled him early last night must be on acid; he stayed with Ollie through a lot last night. Perez is a wonderfully gifted pitcher whose only enemy is himself.
As for Delgado, I was ready to go a long way with him. But after seeing him this year I am convinced he is done. There is little or nothing left there. They should bit the bullet and drop him, either find someone interested in him or DFA him. They might want to start discussing 1B with Alou. Or bring up Carp for a cup of coffee.
Heilman simply stinks. He will now be the biggest target of boo birds at Shea and has no one to blame but himself. Omar’s gotta find a way to either move him to someone willing to piuck up the pieces. If he has any options left, maybe send him to AAA to work on his problems. I hope I never see another Heilman changeup again.
I posted earlier that Heilman may be tipping his pitches. So I watched his game in slow motion over and over again. It may be subtle but I believe I found a slight discrepancy in his delivery. When he throws a change-up he twists his body less than when he throws a fastball. That would mean that the batter can see more of the letters on the back of his jersey on his fastball. Its a subtle difference but I believe it is possible. Can anyone else back this up for me?
Also, he tends to use his fastball only on the corners or out of the strike zone. If a pitch is down the middle of the plate its going to be a change-up for the most part. I believe batters are aware of this also. He needs to use his change on the corners more. He is much more effective when he does.
As far as Ollie. He isn’t tipping his pitches. His mechanics are just bad when he is off. He throws across his body more because he doesn’t place his front foot more towards the plate when he is off. When he is on, he strides towards the plate and doesn’t throw across his body. I watched and knew whether he was going to throw strikes before he released every pitch last night. If I was him, I would draw a line on the mound that he needs to bring his front foot across if I were starting to run in to trouble. This way he can throw a couple pitches correctly and get back on track. His problem isn’t that he occasionally has bad pitches. His problem is that he can’t quickly correct his mechanics.
Also, as I said before, Reyes is swinging early at pitches, he needs to wait for the pitch to come to him. Delgado drops his hands too much before he hits.
These things have to be fixed. Willie ought to stop leaving it to the players and coaches to figure out on their own. I can see it with my own eyes and I am just a fan. There appears to be no activity on this front from the coaches because it is a carryover from last year. That is abhorrent.
Brian Schneider is better at dealing with the pitching staff than Peterson
Haha…I think you’re on to something. Let Schneider be a player/manager/pitching coach. We can fire HoJo since this offense stinks and let Church be the new hitting coach. This Milledge trade will go down as the best trade in history.
HAHAHA, its become pretty comical actually to watch Heilman, Sosa, and Randolph. If you wanna blow a lead place these guys in your bullpen. What the hell is wrong with both of our teams. These guys are all head cases and Willie is really starting to piss me off
1. Sosa
2. Heilman
3. Farnsworth
4. Hawkins
Don’t go blaming Willie for last night.
Ollie imploded and Heilman, well, enough said.
Sosa looks gassed. I don’t know if he has to accept a demotion, but send Sosa down for Wise (if he’s ready) or Muniz. Let Heilman sit for a few days and put him in in a non-critical situation.
Also, Casanova looks kind of lost and is ticking off the pitchers and coaching staff with his equipment problems. We really miss Schneider (I’d like to see the splits on when he catches versus ‘Nova.)
But if Sosa is gassed then you can blame Willie. Why go to a guy who’s gassed. Why go to a guy who’s struggling when all you need is to get one right handed batter out. That’s why Willie has to take some heat here.
That being said, I’m shocked SHOCKED he didn’t hook OP in the 5th. For what it was worth.
As far as Oliver Perez goes and with post game comments. Willie says Oliver was losing it as to why he was removed. Ok fine, I agree but you left him in after 2 on nobody out. If you felt he was losing it why does he face 2 more hitters ? He retires those 2 and now its 2nd and 3rd 2-Out. Then you pull him ? give me a break
I think he did it because Milledge was up and can only hit LH. How bad would it have been if Milledge had hit the HR on Perez. There would have been 200 post about taking him out and not trading Milledge.
They shouldn’t have traded Milledge.
(I couldn’t resist!)
I understand that angle i just disagree with it here. For the simple reason your saying Perez is coming apart but he managed to then go and get 2-outs. It is not like Milledge is this great hitter. Perez can make him look silly with his pitches just as easy.How about instead of yanking Perez like has been twice so far this year not allowing a single run at the time. How about you allow him to get out of that and build some confidence up instead of getting on his case time and time again. That is the way i see it.
Or, let him let up his own runs and bring in a reliever when things aren’t as dire.
Ollie’s the starter. I think he has to take the responsibility for the mess he created. If he gets out of it, great. Then you bring in a reliever next inning with nobody on the bases.
But to hook Ollie for a struggling reliever when there are two in scoring position seems odd at best.
Can you guys stop dwelling on the “what ifs”? What if we traded Millege 2 years ago when he had more value. What if we traded Heilman years ago when he had more value. Just because they suck now you say that. The past is the past! Well.. What if we traded DW when he had that horrible start last year? Or What if we traded Reyes because of the horrible slump end of last year. You never know how a guy is going to end up.
BTW, this blog is become so much of a b*tch fest!
What if you had written this post earlier?
I am so tired of seeing Ollie fail to challenge hitters. What is the point of going up there and trying to tickle the black with breaking stuff, fall behind, tighten up, and then fail to locate the fastball. It appears that he is afraid to throw his best fastball inside, and he is doomed to mediocrity if he does not.
That all being said, how does Willie even think about replacing Ollie with “Deuce”. “Deuce” Heilman actually outdid himself last night, giving up a “pair of a pair” of runs in relief, instead of his usual one pair. Who knows, maybe Deuce will go for the elusive “triple double” tonight – heaven knows Willie will give him the chance!
Thats the whole thing you can’t continue to remove your starters early like Willie does and use everyone in the bullpen each night. That is a huge problem and it was the problem last year. Willie has no idea how to handle a bullpen. Billy Wagner said it, Feliciano said it and i am sure everyone out there feels that way. It is crazy that alone is a fireable offense for a manager.
Here’s your explanation, Matt.
They just aren’t a good baseball team.
david lennon blog (newsday)
“ESPN’s Tim Kurkjian provided a great nugget on Baseball Tonight: There have been four grand slams this season in the National League and the Mets’ bullpen is responsible for three of them”
we need to give heilman some time off to get himself together. perhaps bring up muniz for a while. We need a more effective long man. Hows Vargas/Armas doing? anyone know
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