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According to Bob Klapisch in the Bergen Record, citing one person familiar with Fred and Jeff Wilpon’s philosophy, ‘the honeymoon is over’ for both Willie Randolph and Omar Minaya, who both have only a month or so before ownership starts asking some serious questions about the team’s future – assuming they are still a middle-of-the-pack team around June 1.
…this is a must-read and thought-provoking column by klapisch, who continues to be one of my favorite columnists and writers…
…by the way, i have a fear…it may be premature, and i hope it is soon-to-be irrelevant, but it’s a fear nevertheless…
…i fear that the Mets did what was necessary to make themselves competitive quickly, to gain respect in the game, and move fast from last place to first place in two year’s time, but that the cost for this burst may now be a disorganized team at a crossroads…
…think back, it seems that most champions in baseball do so in phases…it never happens on a smooth, straight-up rocket ride to a ring…instead, there is usually a rebuilding phase, followed by mild success, lots of hype, then some disappointment, a slight reshuffling and then true, ultimate-success is achieved…
…i fear the Mets are in that disappointment-reshuffling stage – moving sideways, not forward – but they just don’t know it yet…
…Carlos Delgado, Orlando Hernandez, Moises Alou, Pedro Martinez, Paul Lo Duca and others may be players who were needed for that initial push, but who will not or may not be part of this team’s next push towards a championship…in 2006, when the Mets were winning, smiling and surging, i never imagined i would see Ryan Church as a key cog in the next phase of winning…in other words, things change…quickly…
…to their credit, i know for fact that some people high up with the Mets realize there may need to be a slight shift in course if the team is going to truly take that next step in winning – and do so consistently over the next decade…surprise, surprise, but acquiring aging veterans to plug holes is not an organizational-wide philosophy…it’s a short-term solution that can temporarily sustain jobs, while gaining instant credibility in the market place…
…the thing is, this team’s needs may be changing…they are respectable now…they have had success…now it’s time to build on that success and grow for the future, pushing aside these short-term solutions so the team can achieve more than just short-term success…
It’s about time. The Mets do not look like a team that can sustain a 162 game schedule. What concerns me the most is the pitching staff…in particular the starters. With the exception of Santana, how may starters eat up innings. The bullpen will feel fatigued in no time at this rate.
To see Minaya and Randolph on the hot seat is nothing new.
grow for the future? we’ve traded our future.
the rebuilding process has to begin in the
minor leagues, we must stop trading good
future prospects for established players.
I agree. We gave away our prospects (albeit so-so prospects) in the Santana deal. Now it’s time for the team to rebuild with players that can play in the big leagues in a few years. Minaya has a track record of getting good players but at the same time has acquired some players that makes you scratch your head (i.e., Alou). Alou’s value says a lot, but so does his health track record. I’m not ready to concede on the 08 season. They need to find their breaks.
Are you kidding me? That’s so hypocritical. A majority of the fans on this blog in a poll said that they would trade the farm for Santana!
BTW, which veterans did we get in a trade for a “good” future prospects? Castillo we got as a steal. Alou is a free agent pickup. Delgado we paid most cash and Jacobs (who’s ok.. but no superstar). El Duque we got for Julio. Anybody else I’m missing?
yes.
yes but, when we signed Alou as a free agent, we surrendered a first round pick for him. So that was a miscue i would say.
I would say that after 50 games we should be at 30 -20 to be happy. That is the pace that the Marlins are set for. Anything less than that , IMHO, is not good. we are a much better team that 500 and treading water. We have the talent to move away from the pack and stay there.
So you’re saying that Willie is Grady Little to an as yet un-named Tito Francona?
Tito?!?! You’ve got Santana on the brain.
I’ve said it a million times… This team has not played to its potential since the Dodger series in 2006. The team has stopped responding to Willie and it is time for a new voice, preferably one who is a better strategic manager. Willie may have once been able to motivate, but I don’t think that is that case anymore.
As for Omar…I don’t know. I see Johan, and I see Bannister. I see Maine and Perez and I see Burgos and Ben Johnson. It has been some really good deals and some really bad deals. Has he gotten us respect again, yes. Has he gotten the pieces that made us the favorites on paper, yes. So what more can you ask for from a GM? But I too would like to see the team get younger and less injury-prone. Of course injuries are part of the game, but you have to realize they happen more often when you are running a nursing home.
I’m not buying into the whole Bannister hype yet. He’s gotta do it for the rest of the year to prove he’s gonna be able to have a decent career. Also, Heath Bell was never gonna blossom here.
Still, right now those seem like some pretty crappy deals, but all in all I’ve been happy with the job Omar has done. The Castillo signing is the only thing that really kills me.
Even if the guy falls off a cliff, he has had an incredible season +. That is already worth more than the Mets got back.
Obviously, this trade didn’t work in the short term, but it wasn’t about the short term. Burgos turned 24 last week; he was aquired with the long term in mind. See if he comes come back from his surgery.
It might not look good now, and it might never work out. But if the trade was made with the long term in mind, give it some time.
Bannister is 27. Burgos is 24 and had a history of injuries. At best the Mets will get one or two years of decent relief pitching from Burgos. Bannister has already given the Royals a full year of very good pitching.
If the Mets had Bannister out there every 5th day last year instead of their terrible 5th starter by committee approach, they might have had that one extra win to get them to the playoffs (where they would have been swept anyway). Its not like Burgos gave them anything. At best he was a step up from Mota.
Omar has done some great things and he’s done some not so great things. But it’s not all so black and white.
1. Santana: Omar didn’t pull off some great mastermind GM move to get him. Maybe he kept what we had to give up to get him manageable, but this isn’t a masterful GM move. It’s hiring a hitman. Nothing wrong with that either.
2. Bannister: Does anyone remember watching him here? It was a Houdini act. He showed some raw talent, but he was constantly in and out of trouble. His biggest strength in a Mets uniform was that he never gave in. But nobody could have known what he was going to become.
I feel like Omar gets too much credit sometimes, and other times too much abuse. I still feel like he has a real connection with the team. I don’t know who you would replace him with, but that’s something for the organiztion to decide if it comes down to that.
As for Willie, I still think he will finish the season. I don’t like him, but who do you replace him with right now? That’s not a reason to keep someone who isn’t working, but mid-season changes like that sometimes end up biting you in the rear end.
They have their work cut out for them.
Hey, you also need to give credit to Omar (and the Wilpons) for walking away from Zito.
Can you imagine if we signed him? Wow, what a mess.
Yeah that would have been a DISASTER.
He might lose 20 games this year!
call me crazy but omar should take a long hard look at acquiring zito if he plans to keep the jacket on board long term.
the mets might be able to buy him out for less than fifty cents on the dollar, and if there isn’t anything physically wrong with him, peterson has a better chance than anyone to fix him.
50 cents on Zito’s dollar is still more than most current MLB starters. And those starters don’t throw with the velocity of Harris from ‘Major League’.
Pass.
1. Santana: I absolutely commend Omar for weathering the long storm on this and making a move while Boston and Bronx were playing chicken. Omar focused on one thing…the clock. He knew Santana demanded to be traded prior to going on his pre-ST vacation. So, as no one else was blinking, he lowered his offer as midnight nearly struck . Very smart.
2. Bannister. I disagree 100%. I think HE knew what he was going to become. I was livid when he was traded for a ‘project’. I lamented about it here numerous times over teh past year. You don’t trade a starter for a bullpen arm, especially one with mechanical flaws and control issues. Absolutely stupid. Sure Bannister showed flaws as a rookie, but no different than what we currently see from Maine and Perez. Difference is, Bannister has since ironed out those flaws. Besided determination, he also showed one thing that suggested he would be a MLB pitcher fo the long term, and that is smarts. The kid was college eductated and a student of the game and brought the pedigree from his father. How the hell did he go from a top draft pick to a 5th starter within 2 years. And then gets shipped for a project shortly thereafter?
I’m of the mindset that it’s still too early to think that way. They have not performed the way we expected, but are still over .500 and just took a series from the Braves which is an accomplishment in itself. What you are saying could very well be true but I think we have to wait and see how some of these injuries play out first before we jump off the plank.
Again, the month’s timeframe makes sense. But it’s still too early. Let’s see where we are come June and proceed from there. I refuse to accept the fact that this team cannot win a championship this year, so I’m not buying into this year being part of the gradual ascent to the top.
Mets WS Champs in 2008. They need to start playing more consistently, but it’s there for the taking.
Haha, you said “proceed.”
EXCELLENT reference AND excellent name…my nickname for the last 15 years is SERCH because i used to rock the same big black MC SERCH glasses…i loved 3rd Bass growing up, they were so before their time
even Guiseppe Franco loves them
3rd Bass is the best! Haha…love those guys. Pete Nice actually is a huuuuuge baseball fan. I think he works in cooperstown now if I’m not mistaken. He also wrote a book called “Baseball Legends of Brooklyn’s Green-Wood Cemetery.” Check it out.
Wordz of Wisdom!
I’d hate to see the Mets waste the careers of Wright and Reyes by continuing to surround them with veterans on the downside of their careers. If you’re going to build a team, build a team. Why be somewhere between building and winning?
I see them a lot closer this year to having a full team. Think about last year you had Green in RF and Alou in LF. Now you have Church in RF who is young and a solid player overall and FMart ready to come up for late season call-up this year/starter next year. Delgado will be gone next year so if we can replace him with a power hitting 1b this team would be complete. You would only see guys at the end of their careers on the bench if that.
The rotation will be solid and young Johan, Maine and hopefully Ollie with a little Pelf, Nelson Fig mixed in with a FA aquisition.
I like the direction of the team at this point. Overall they are solid all around. They could use a little more pop but I think that comes with 1b next year.
Don’t pencil FMart in for the starter late year or the starter next year. He has another 180 games of seasoning in the minors to go before he comes up. I’d be surprised to see him on the roster this year at all.
I’m thinking Jon Garland is in the rotation next year . . .
Of course, the answer may be simpler than we think- drop the Jacket, and ask Pedro to take over as pitching coach- he can still be a major locker-room presence, and the pressure’s off of him to get healthy.
Yeah I second that. Then drop our team doctor and let El Duque be doctor – since he has experience with just about everything that can go wrong with a human body.
And Delgado can be the infield coach, showing the players all the ways they can avoid getting to routine groundballs and keeping their error total down (and energy saved up, so the fistpump can be employed following a double-play).
these posts made me LOL
How about bringing in the Franco Triplets to try and get these guys on track?
Manager: Julio
Pitching Coach: John
Hair Care Consultant: Guiseppe
Stop denying that the team has struggled, and get on the track to making the playoffs RIGHT NOW! :)
The reference to Ryan Church is interesting. When that trade was made, everyone said that giving up Milledge for Schneider and some throw-in outfielder was a bad deal. Now I don’t want to compare Schneider to Jorge Julio – Schneider’s been a big plus so far this year in ways that Julio never was – but Ryan Church is looking like the John Maine of that trade.
It’s too early in the year for panicked moves. Everyone knows that Florida won’t be there in September, so the Mets just need to stay at the top of the East, and competitive for the Wild Card, for the next 2 months. Then, if Delgado is still the guy we thought he was on Saturday and if Alou is still out, it’s time for a serious “mega-trade”.
The only names that would be off the table for that kind of deal are Santana & Wright (on talent) and Beltran & Pedro (untradeable contracts). Yes, Reyes is tradeable, unless he reverts to his pre-August ‘07 form. If Ollie won’t sign an in-year extension, he may have to go as part of it if it’s with another contender. . I’d hate to trade Maine – he’s good, cheap and under NYM control – but all that makes him VERY tradeable.
Maine is untradeable, because you do not trade Major League proven pitchers under the control of the team anymore.
I think more people thought Church would put up better numbers than Milledge this year, but would be a worse long-term option in RF than Lastings.
I’m coming to believe that trading Ollie would be risky, but ultimately best. But I’ll give him another five starts before I commit to that position.
in my opinion, omar shouldnt be given a pass. Yes, he made the santana deal…but santana fell into his lap after the sox and yanks backed out. other then that he has picked up all veterans who dont have much left and its starting to show…Delgado…castillo…alou…el duque…pedro. The team was built to win in 2006 and “kindof” in 2007. This year the team doesn’t look like a championship contender an Omar AND Willie are gunna have to go if this continues. Omar has made countless stupid decisions(heath bell, bannister, keppinger?, Lindstrom) and getting nothing in return…burgos, ben johnson…I think the team needs a new leader like Gary Carter or Wally Backman and they need a GM who wants to build a team to win, not to feel as if its his team (old veterans, hispanic or white or black doesnt matter)
I don’t think the Mets would be any better right now with any of the players mentioned (Bell, Bannister, Keppinger, or Lindstrom).
However, they would be a lot worse if they didn’t have Ollie, Maine, Johan, Wagner, Beltran, Church, Schneider, Pagan & Duaner. And let’s not forget they guys he brought in that nearly got us to the World Series (Delgado, LoDuca, Endy)
The constant screaming about middle relievers who blow hot and cold and singles hitters is confusing. And Bannister, as good as he has been, was the only truly BAD move I could think of.
Wow. Boggles my mind how many racist Mets fans there are! people want Minya out because the team has hispanics on it lol. get a life!
this screams of jeff ‘paris’ wilpon going to the press again instead of handling it internally. it didn’t work last year. it won’t work this year.
the mets over-achieved in 2006. this is a playoff team this year, but definately not a team that has enough talent to run away with the division. not when the phillies have utley lined up for an mvp to join rollins and howard in back-to-back-to-back years.
lets’ not forget the 2006 rotation (starts)
glavine (32)
trachsel (30)
pedro (23)
el duque (20)
maine (15)
soler (8)
ollie, bannister, zambrano, d. williams (23)
if the mets don’t make the playoffs this year firing the willie is justified. omar should probably get another shot. talking about it now is a weak ownership who fears the fans.
the problem with the “give the GM one more shot” thing is that then he knows his job is on the line, and he’s liable to make some awful moves to try to win now. We think this team is old now, just wait till next year if Omar is afraid for his job. If they do struggle this year and fire Willie, I’d like the Wilpons to give Omar a vote of confidence and tell him to just put the team back on the right track and not worry that he might be next.
this is also the problem i had with bringing back randolph who would start this year on the hot seat implicitly. guys who are afraid for their jobs worry about keeping their jobs, not doing them right.
I don’t really get all the hatred of Burgos. He was actually pretty decent last year: he had a 3.42 ERA, 19 K’s in 23 IP, and a 1.099 WHIP, which is actually pretty good. Omar didn’t know he was gonna get hurt (and unlike Alou, Pedro, and El Duque, Burgos was young so the injury wasn’t predictable). Additionally, yea, Bannister has done well, but every measurable suggested he wasn’t gonna be a very good pitcher. He reminds me a lot of Chien-Ming Wang, who defies all the SABR guys by continually pitching well despite not striking anyone out. And if you remember, the Yankees used to talk about trading Wang all the time. At the time the trade was made, we had excess starting pitchers and a lack of young bullpen arms, so I can’t fault Omar for that trade too much.
Not to mention his ERA ballooned due to that grand slam given up to Ryan Howard. Bannister never showed anything to me. How is a guy going to be a successful pitcher when he constantly gets the bases loaded? Give him one more year before saying that Bannister is the next Maddux. I’d still take a young reliever who throws 100 mph over a 3rd starter at best.
I agree that it would be nice to take all 3 but I never expect a sweep, especially in April.
I look at the 6 game trip coming up as pretty key. I have no idea what the pitchign match ups will be but the Mets traditionally play well in Arizona. maybe they miss Owings and if they face Johnson, they have hit him well in the past. since Webb pitched yesterday, they should miss him. and LA is struggling right now. like every 9 game stretch, the next 9 games can be very big.
you can’t win a division in April. and the Mets have not lost in this April. I think they are ok right now. they just need to improve and play to their capabilities for the next 3 days and the last 5 months.
oops. replied to the wrong comment.
If he just pitched yesterday, wouldn’t that mean that we WILL face Webb? We are playing there next Friday Saturday and Sunday, are we not? They play 3 games before we come, that means he’ll get the 2nd start of that series.
yeah. obviously. looks like I was looking past the Pittsburgh series. I’m brain dead.
I would much rather have this team fighting in a tight race like it has been thus far, and was the case back in 99′ and 00′ when the team was up and down all year fighting for the devision and the wild card then be out ahead of everyone the whole season and fall asleep and cave in the second any type of adversity comes our way. We are curretnly 1.5 out and have taken 6 out of the past 9 against our top two rivals and two out of three from the marlins and 4 out of 5 from the nats, and those are the teams were gonna play the most so that is something to build on. Also lets not forget we have been holding it together without our complete rotation or one of our top hitters and if we get even half of that back we will be just that much better
if the Mets win 2 of 3 from the Pirates, they will finish April on pace to win 90 games. given that El Duque has not thrown an inning and Pedro has not lasted 4 innings, would anyone else have been happy at the beginning of April under these circumstances to come out on pace to win 90?
yes, they ahve some tough games in May but April was not exactly easy. 6 against Philly. 5 against Atlanta (where they faced Smoltz and Hudson twice), 2 against the Cubs, 3 against the Brewers.
I don’t know. If they take the series against Pitt, I’m fairly happy. look around the majors. good teams are struggling. Boston has lost 5 in a row. the Yanks have serious rotation problems. Detroit started off miserably. Cleveland is a .500 team thus far.
they need to improve and fix their deficiences but I am not all that disappointed right now.
well said.
You make a good point regarding the way it projects (if we were to take 2 of 3) given all of the injuries. But I think this series could be one of those that can be a key series to get us going. Sure, no complaints about taking 2 of 3 over the next few days but this team hasn’t had a winning streak of more than 5 games since 06 when they did it a few times. I think it would do wonders for them to take 3 here (which is definitely possible) before heading out west.
just for some further perspective, the ‘69 Mets were 9-11 after April, and then went 12-12 in May. They ended up just fine. The ‘99 and 2000 Mets both had months in which they played under .500 ball, and they ended up with 97 and 94 wins and a World Series berth.
i also think it’s encouraging when you look at their record against the NL east. they’re 12-7 against their own division.
The Mets have never been the same since Duaner Sanchez’s taxi accident. Up until that point everything seemed to be going their way. There was a great feeling of excitement and potential around the team.
Ever since that accident, something changed. Everything became more business-like. I don’t know, I’ve just always felt that. It was like a shoe-dropped and a dark cloud started to slowly accumulate.
Alou not being able to stay in the lineup. His RH power bat stabilizes the offense.
yes, something changed. Xavier Nady was traded away. Bring the X-Man back and all their problems will be solved.
He is gonna be expensive! Not only has he improved his game since 86, but we got alot out of Oliver Perez in that deal.
I agree that it is early in the season to start worrying about everything. However, the 2006 Mets had a record of 16-8 after April and had a 6 game lead in the division. That made me feel very confident and comfortable with the team. Now, this season, the mets have seemed up and down. That’s a .500 team. I am not one of those fans who believes Omar should go. I think he’s done a great job. He is relying on some old players, however, who else was Omar suppose to go after in the offseason?
That is the point that often gets overlooked about Omar. It takes a GM years to implement real change. It is fine to say they should be yonger, etc., but he can’t make players appear out of thin air. You have to spend your FA dollars and prospects as best you can, and sometimes that means a s/t fix like Alou.
A manager though can make a more immediate impact (and can be judged differently).
Being a GM is like steering an ocean liner. It takes some time to change course!
Still, this off season is the pivitol one. Big contracts expiring, and major decisions to be made.
That’s a great point Stickguy…
I don’t understand how people are so over critical of the job Omar has done. Every GM makes questionable decisions. However, Omar as been right far more than he has been wrong. I think he has done a great job since coming aboard. Coupled with the ownerships willingness to spend money has transformed this franchise into a viable team again.
he should have had a backup plan for alou. and for delgado for that matter. and if the organization thinks pagan is just a bench player anyway, then it can’t simultaneously tell me he’s a adequate everyday player in alou’s absence.
that was a good article.
If nothing else, it really crystalizes why Willie needs to go. Although after last year, I don’t know how any players could be on “autopilot”
Maybe 2006 was the worst thing to happen to the team (not winning, but running away and hiding). That might be what instilled the “entitlement” aspect in them. Might have been better off having to battle til the end to make the playoffs.
If I got to decide, I would pull the plug on Willie right now, before it becomes too late. He ain’t changing, so why put off the inevitable?
I would also give Omar the vote of confidence, and make sure that the entire organization has a LT plan to march to (clear out the broken down geezers, and blend in as many in house young guys as possible). Key too will be deciding who to trade/what to target. Then let Omar go execute the plan.
Consider 2008 to be the transition year, since they have to clear out lou, Duque, Delgado, etc. for 2009. But no way does 2009 have to be a rebuilding year. With the right couple of moves, they can be younger, hungrier, and better positioned to win.
Thank god the Wilpons see that the emperor has few clothes on, even if some Mets fans still have their blinders on. No, Omar is not naked, but his attire is starkly incomplete..
Sure, you need a few veterans around for various reasons, but Omar vastly overdid it with the AARP crowd and brought in too many injury prone aging players on their last legs. The number of players who retire right after being a Met is probably larger in recent years than for any other team.
Look at the Marlins, the D-Rays and the D-Backs. They all learned to successfully mix in a healthy large mix of youngsters with any veterans they acquire. Omar needs to learn to do this and stay away from the geritol crowd. Someone needs to give him a book about the aging process because he apparently doesn’t understand it.
oh, enlightened one. i hope to one day remove my blinders. i also hope that one day the mets learn from the “d-rays” about balancing a roster.
I didn’t name any one in particular, but if the shoe fits, wear it.
I hope one day Omar can be as good a GM as Josh Byrnes, Dayton Moore, Beane, and Theo Epstein. But I’m not encouraged. If the Mets ever want to win a WS, the Wilpons will have to change the GM.
omar’s teams have out-performed 3 of the 4 gm’s you named. the other was 100% against trading for beckett.
i’m sure that after the mets swept the dodgers in 2006 and won game one of the nlcs you thought the team could never win a world series without omar.
*with
zen … It’s not purely about performance. It’s the mileage a GM gets out of the budget they have … and the health of their teams.
Beane is amazing. Just to remain competitive every year after having given up his best starters due to affordability and despite spending about 50% less than the biggest spenders in his division is remarkable.
As for Theo not wanting Beckett, who cares? All GMs make mistakes. Even the best ones. And all the ones I mentioned. The question is not who is perfect because no on e is, but rather how much do they ultimately get out of their resources? How good are their teams given their budgets and the divisions they play in?
Granted Omar has gotten good performance out of his budgets but not on a par with some of the other GMs I mentioned. And the current health of the team is just so-so now. What worries me most is both the lack of prospects in the farm system and the belief that even with some good prospects, Omar will be too hesitant to give them the opportunities they need to develop into viable major league players.
I had doubts about Omar from the beginning as his reputations for hasty and questionable decisions preceded him. But it wasn’t until AFTER the 2006 NLCS and his ill-advised moves to sign Mota and Schoeneweis and let Bradford go that I started to seriously think the Mets will never win a WS with Omar. Now I am almost totally convinced of that. Will his teams be competitive? Definitely. Because he has a big budget. Just like with Cashman. But he just doesn’t have the right mix of skills and acumen to put together a WS winner. To go the extra distance.
What has Billy Beane accomplished? A Big Fat Nothing
Dayton Moore? Really? His team was predicted to be last place once again in the AL Central
Josh Byrnes? He has been GM for 2 months
Epstein is the only one who has ANY success under his belt and he is often criticized by his hometown team. He has also made bad moves in his tenure.
What has Beane accomplished? He’s probably gotten the most mileage out of budgetary dollars than any GM in baseball the last few decades. Bar none.
Dayton Moore? He turned around a struggling franchise into a competitive one, spending like the A’s less than 50% of what others in his division spend, which is considered one of the toughest in baseball. And he fleeced Omar by getting Bannister. He probably was aware of Omar’s weakness for Jorge Julio types and knew just the ticket to lure Omar to the table.
Josh Byrnes? He has been GM since 2005. So what are you talking about with with your “2 months”? Where the heck did you get that idea? The D-Backs are now considered not only one of the best teams in all of baseball, but one of the healthiest with their emphasis on starting pitching and youth. They’ve made smart trades, draft picks, and are not afraid to give their youth time to develop. Just a smart all-around organization.
And as I said in my post above, no GM is perfect and they all make mistakes. You don’t judge a GM by their mistakes, necessarily, but how far they go given their resources. Theo has been GM of Boston only 1 more year than Omar has been GM of the Mets. Yet he has two WS titles already.
i misread byrnes wikipedia. If the Mets had the budget of the a’s and did what beane did met fans would still be pissed. Beane has done well in building a farm not a team. In his tenure the a’s made the alcs in 2006 and were and were promptly swept. Minaya accomplished that in his 2nd year. I get that Beane thinks differently but he is overrated.
I would kill to have a GM like Beane. Seriously. He makes mistakes too but he does the best he can given his resources. He usually gets the most bang for his buck out of any GM. In the last 10 years, his teams have made the postseason 5 times. That’s no small feat for a team with a small budget.
Minaya “accomplished” getting booted out of the LCS with a budget twice as large as Beane’s. Yes Beane things differently and I prefer his way of thinking. I think Omar is overrated and many are starting to see that now.
I will agree with you that many Mets fans have no patience for mediocrity and watching kids struggle. But there is a segment of the fan base who like me would prefer the slower approach if it meant younger, more homegrown players. And if a team is not going to make the playoffs, it’s at least more enjoyable (for me) watching young talented kids play out the season than “bored” veterans.
beane would utterly destroy what omar has done here with a comparable budget. to argue otherwise is ridiculous.
If you mean Beane would destroy the roster full of older AARP players and make it younger and more balanced, I completely agree. He’d destroy it and make the team better.
“Omar vastly overdid it with the AARP crowd and brought in too many injury prone aging players on their last legs.”
Besides Elduque and Alou, who did he bring in that was an aging veteran to have a large role on the team? He has signed his share to be bench players but Pedro and Delgado do not count. Especially Delgado after his 2005 season. He hit .300. Martinez had averaged 31 starts over the previous 3 years before he signed. Both of those players were needed very much to win now. They were not long term solutions but you could not have guessed that neither of them would be effective through the rest of their contracts.
Yes Alou was a risk, however, there were not many options for the OF without paying more than we wanted and we WERE deep in OF prospects so Alou was to hold the fort for Gomez or Milledge. Same with Elduque, he was durable and cheap and we had Humber, Pelfrey, and Bannister.
AARP players —
Valentin
El Duque
Pedro
Glavine
Delgado
Conine
Green
Easley
The only ones I agreed having on the team were Easley, Pedro, Glavine, and Valentin. The rest were too risky or unnecessary. See, I am not against AARP players totally. Omar just overdid it which not only put the team at risk for having too many players out of commission at the same time, but also precludes a team for looking for younger solutions for those positions.
For example. I never wanted them to sign El Duque for two years. Never. I would rather they have given Bannister a spot for 2007. And last summer I advocated instead of them picking up Alou’s option for 2008, to go after Fukudome.
They got a poor return on their dollars for both Alou and El Duque and the current scenario could easily have been predicted given both their ages and injury histories. The money they saved by not going for someone like Fukudome could have been saved by inserting Bannister into the rotation. If they didn’t want to spend the money on a younger and healthier outfielder, then that’s an example of their poor judgment.
In the meantime, reports had it that Omar’s primary target last winter was initially Posada. It would have been a disaster had Omar gotten his wish. This reinforces my belief that Omar lacks the good judgment to build a WS winner.
Should read: The extra money they would have spent by going for someone like Fukudome could have been saved by inserting Bannister into the rotation instead of bringing El Duque back..
How much did Fukudome sign for? How many years? We had OF depth already when we resigned Alou for cheap.
As for half of your list I said players that start or really impact the team thus,
Valentin turned out to be a bench player
El Duque was an innings eater at the time that could pitch from the pen and was cheap. Could hold down a spot for Humber or Pelfrey until they were ready.
Pedro Duh
Glavine Duh
Delgado Duh
Conine How can you count a guy that was brought in for 2 months in a pennant run?
Green holding the spot for a hopeful Milledge and Green platoon and then gone.
Easley bench player that has been effective
Again, he has not locked us into but one aging veteran that is Castillo and he will be just fine.
At the time they picked up Alou’s option, the Mets knew they were in the Santana sweepstakes and Omar knew he’d have to give up OF depth for Santana. And Church wasn’t a Met yet. So he had a choice: Go for Fukudome or another outfielder or pick up Alou’s option which was folly. He chose the mistake.
When Valentin re-signed with the team, he was NOT signed to be a bench player. And, at any rate, he is one of the players I agreed with taking back.
El Duque was a DL trip waiting to happen. As was Alou. He was a waste of money and is a perfect example of the difference between the D-Backs and Mets. The D-Backs couldn’t wait to dump El Duque. The Mets couldn’t wait to re-sign him. What his re-signing ended up doing was block a spot for someone like Bannister. Bannister vs. El Duque. Omar goes for the AARP player. A smarter GM chooses youth at that point.
Delgado — not DUH. Delgado on a 1 or 2 year contract, yeah that’s DUH. But not on a 3-year pricey contract. Only Omar makes that type of trade.
Conine — took up a roster spot and was useless. Would have been better to bring up some youth. Even a reliever like Muniz.
Easley. — I said I agreed with Easley.
Green — He was a decent but flawed and short-sighted stopgap.
Omar locked the Mets into Alou, El Duque, and Delgado. All ultimately wastes of money and roster spots and playing time that could have gone to younger players.
If Delgado, Alou and El Duque were all performing reasonably well this year — just decently — that would be a different matter. But none of them are. Omar made a mistake by counting on all 3 for the 2008 season.
Ok, I was thinking about responses for all the other ones but this one really made me laugh. Connie took up a roster spot? For what 5 days? The rosters expand in September. Besides did you want them to go with 13 pitchers and 12 batters for those 5 days? How can you critize him for 5 days in late August for a bech player?
Also, I don’t get how it makes it ok, if you agreed with it? Easley is ok because you said so but Delgado who had just came off of a season that he hit .301 with 33 HR and had and had his 3rd best OPS% of his career while having a contract that while he was here would be worth 13.67 million a year due to Florida paying for part of his contract. Who else was going to give us those 06 numbers and who would have thought that in 3 years he would go from MVP caliber to nothing.
Alou and Elduque were both low risk contracts that did not lock them into anything. The were 2 year deals for very little money.
Armchair QB, go back to sleep.
Conine ended up getting 41 ABs. He hit .195 for the Mets. Surely even a scrub from New Orleans could have done just as bad. And the bullpen was spent down the stretch. Muniz or another reinforcement might have been more helpful prior to August 31st.
Easley is OK because he is just a bench player. And, as I said, I don’t think the problem is getting AARP players. It’s putting so many of them on the roster at the same time that’s the issue. It bit Omar in the butt last year, and it’s biting him again this year. Omar is a very slow learner.
The problem with Delgado was not the stats from his previous year with the Marlins. It was the fact he’d be 34, 35, and 36 for the last 3 years of his contract. Those are all years of stark decline for almost every single slugger in major league history — especially those who don’t use steroids and HGH. It was almost a certainty that he would continue to decline from 2005 onward. Who would have thought he would go from MVP to almost nothing? Why just about anyone who pays attention to aging patterns in baseball. If a GM can’t or won’t, he should be fired.
Alou and El Duque locked up a LF and rotation spot for 2 years and cost the Mets roughly $26 million. It wasn’t the cost so much, it was the roster space, their positions on the team, and this sense that there’s always something missing — that the team isn’t firing on all cylinders — when they were on the DL. It’s a mental handicap that the team has had to deal with all too frequently the last two years.
Pollyanna, go back to your lollipops.
Mr ACQB, point still is that we did not aquire Connie until the last part of August and rosters get expanded on Sept 1. So Connie cost us 5 days after that it did not matter. Muinz could have been up.
As for Delgado, did you see his 2006 season? Most players don’t have as sharp of a drop off from one season to the next . Again he put up MVP type numbers in 05 and 06 and then fell off the map to average to below average in one year. Still we had a chance in 06 and he was a primary reason we did.
As for Alou and Elduque I think there effect of waiting around was on the fans and not the GM. Omar made a concsious decision to go with Alou/Chavez/Milledge/Johnson/Gomez instead of tying up a roster spot with a an overpriced player.
Same thing with Elduque, ride him while you can and hope that someone else steps up if/when he gets injured.
Those decisions are easy to second guess now but were solid OPTIONS when they occured. Just because you would not have done them does not make them bad decisions. It could have gone either way. Maybe with a Delgado led team we win the 2006 WS. Yes some of the decisions backfired but I think that had more to do with the others not being ready to step in. That was the fault more than signing the veterans.
Mr. Pollyanna:
My point is not that Conine was so crucial — though his ABs down the stretch were — but that it is indicative of Omar’s “get them while they’re not hot” philosophy,. And if someone else had hit just a little better down the stretch in those 41 ABs, maybe the Mets win one more game in 2007 and everyone knows what that means.
Of course I saw Delgado’s 2006 season which was very good. But is 2006 a good tradeoff for 2007 and 2008? I don’t think so. Especially since I think part of the problem with the team is Delgado’s personality. His “bored” veteran demeanor. People would like Willie to yell and scream and maybe it’s going to wake up the team? I think not when one of the “leaders” of this team is so laid back and seemingly disinterested at times.
And on the contrary — many if not most players experience sharp drops around that age. Look at Tino Martinez and Bernie Williams. If Omar didn’t anticipate such a drop, he is not qualified to be GM.
The effect of “waiting around” was on the players. That’s what I meant. Not on the fans or the GM. When Alou and El Duque are out, the players would always say things like “wait till Moises gets back.” There’s this sense they are always playing short-handed and not on all cylinders. This is a mental handicap for a team IMO.
Fukudome isn’t an overpriced player IMO. So instead of throwing $8 million down the drain on Alou, Omar wold be getting good production from someone like Fukudome for $12 million. I’d rather have the latter.
And Bannister wouldn’t have cost anything. The Mets would have saved $$$ by going with him. And ultimately gotten better production.
There is NO second guessing now. I railed against most of these moves at the time, and those who know me as VCarver can attest to that. I’ve been an active critic of Omar on this board since at least 2006.
IMO, they were bad moves. Sure, they could have gone either way. But they didn’t. Most of them went bad. And Omar has to take the blame for that.
Many of you treat Omar as the Teflon Don. I’m glad the Wilpons are smarter than that.
HA! I thought as I read this, “wow, this guy really sticks to his guns!” And now I know why: it’s VCarver.
The Mets have been moving laterally since 2006 because they continue to renew guys like Duque and Alou. If the Mets still think they can win the 2006 WS, which is what it appears Omar is trying to do, then they will resign Pedro and pick up Delgado’s option and we will be looking at another potentially mediocre year in 2009…
While I agree that we did not move up because we did not get what we wanted from them, there were not many options either. I think it also had to do with over valuing our prospects as well. We assumed that Pelfrey and Milledge would have been ready to take over for both of them.
No way the Mets resign Delgado. Pedro – we’ll see how he looks when he gets back.
But let’s be fair. Doesn’t it make sense that a big reason Omar stuck with Alou or Duque was that they cost us nothing but money?
How could we bring back Nady without sacrificing the future even more? it’s not like the Pirates will take Alou in return. And, to those who say we never should have dealt him, ok – but we wouldn’t have Perez then… so now we’d have to trade young talent to get a pitcher. (I know, I know, Bannister – I’ll get to him later…)
Point is — I don’t see that many great free agents the Mets passed on to sign the old guys instead. Thank God we were smart enough to stay away from Zito. Fukudome? It took him about 5 minutes to sign with the Cubs even though word was other teams were ready to offer him more.
Even Omar’s worst deals aren’t as blatantly stupid as some portray. I hated the Heath Bell trade – said so at the time. But Ben Johnson was highly regarded at the time – if he’d worked out, he’d be perfect in LF right now.. so chalk that one up to bad talent scouting, not bad strategic thinking.
And I’m sick of hearing about Bannister. Bannister = Figueroa. A good 3rd-4th starter. It sucked that Burgos got hurt because had he stayed healthy, he could have been the difference last year. Imagine him and Sanchez handling the 7th & 8th, Feliciano and Smith doing situational work and Heilman as the long man. You could be talking one of the best bullpens in history.
Bottom line: hindsight is always 20-20. I don’t think Omar’s been great, but he hasn’t been awful either. We could have done a lot worse – and for most of our history, we have.
This team has been “old” for years. Maybe 2006 was kind of a fluke since no one expected taht kind of year so soon from this team, as they were still rebuilding. It takes a few years to transition to a young team, and in a WIN NOW town like NY, it takes a lot longer.
I agree with one post in that the 2006 runaway season created a sense of entitlement around the team, and they had become too arrogant.
I still sense that the hangover from 2007 haunts these guys, and the booing they hear at home is a constant reminder of that. Fans are frustrated that this team is not 7 games up, and a lot of people are impatient.
It’s still early, but it seems the only ones that are playing to their caliber (except for Wright and Wags) are the new guys (Schneider, Church, Santana). And, by the way, they have no memories of 2007.
Lets bring back the Art Howe, Moe Vaughn, Victor Zambrano regime
bringing back Willie, Delgado, and Oliver Perez would basically be doing just that…
That is rough to compare Zambrano to Perez don’t you think?
You guys are nutso. Omar has done a very, very, good job. The problem is, when he does something good, like getting Santana, Maine, Church, etc then it’s considered luck. But if an outcome is bad, as in Bannister or Bradford, then he gets pilloried.
People say he has to “do something” to get better players to plug holes, but then if that involves trading prospects or signing free agents which forfeit draft choices, he gets blamed for leaving the farm system dry.
I said this before, and I’ll say it again. If the players actually performed up to their ability, and I’m looking right at Jose Reyes, Beltran, and Delgado (to a lesser extent, since he’s old and some decline can be expected), then this whole conversation wouldn’t be happening.
I have defended Willie and Omar right from the start, and I don’t blame Omar at all. As far as Willie, I’m still trying to be patient, but he is just stuck in his ways and won’t change his ways.
I like Omar’s aggressiveness in making deals, and he’s not afraid to take a chance. He’s also very shrewd and patient; don;t forget huis patience in landing Santana. Also, they were having trouble working a good deal for Milledge, and he managed to get 2 starters in return! Gotta give him props for that. Where would this team be without Church and Schneider right now?
No GM out there is perfect, and Omar has made the Mets legitimate again. Now, the expectations are so high, and when you look at this team, I just think their swagger is gone and there is a lot of doubt in that clubhouse.
This team chemistry sucks…I don’t know who, why, or where to start laying blame since I’m not in the locker room. But, you have to admit…from the upper deck right down to the field, the bad taste of 2007 still lingers.
This team needs a streak of 12 out of 15 to wipe some of that bad taste away.
btw, Claudio Vargas just finished pitching for the St. Lucie Mets today. He went 5 and fared well enough against inferior players.
web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2008_04_28_pbcafa_sluafa_1
I’m not really sure what he offers now that Figueroa has performed so adequitely, at least he’s on the horizon as another option.
Get rid of Sosa and bring up Vargas to long relief.
At his point I’d prefer Rich Rodriguez to Sosa.
I wonder how much further he needs to go to get me longing for Mel Rojas.
3rd time: we got every last bit of goodness sosa has to offer…get him gone.
Great article Matt, thanks for the link. I agree with you that Klapisch is one of the best writers covering the Mets.
Bottom line, this team lacks motivation. I believe that the talent is there but the motiviation is not, and I put that on Randolph. Right now I think Willie has two choices: 1) he can learn from Tom Coughlin and make a change in his approach to try and reach his players, or 2) he can do nothing, keep on trotting out the same old tired cliches about “knowing his guys,” and lose his job by the All-Star break. Simple as that.
Let’s not ignore some nascent positive signs. The Mets seem to have broken the Phillie’s psychic hold over them. The team just beat the top two Brave starters. Church’s performance has surpassed all expectations.
On the down side, there was a post over the weekend to the effect that the Braves’ announcers said that the Mets had not overcome a two-or-more run lead this year. That is not the mark of a team with determination, grit, or a firm belief in itself.
To be fair, no Rollins for the Phillies and no Larry for the Braves. Either way, I’ll take it.
to be fair, we don’t have pedro, alou, schneider, and our 1B is a black hole. reyes still hasn’t got it going.
Thank God Jeff W. isn’t James Dolan. This is a sign that Willie could be gone within a month, and to that I say hallelujah. I would’ve canned him last October, but hey, I’m not the one who has to pay him off. As long as it gets done before this season is lost…
“the zen of bobby v” is playing at the tribeca film festival. it starts former mets manager bobby valentine. no truth to the rumor that i’m the “zen” in the film :)
tribecafilmfestival.org/filmguide/Zen_of_Bobby_V.html
the real issue is Reyes
if there is something wrong with him, as it appears, we are screwed for years
if he produces, we’ll be fine
our rotation is as solid as they come – the bullpen needs a bit of tweaking (Heilman should be a starter, now that Sanchez is back – Sosa could be replaced)
we need to blend some of the veterans with some of the kids we have – fortunately, we have more talent than we thought in AAA (relievers) and AA (regular players)
overall, if Reyes is fine, we should be fine
but is something wrong with him?
if he starts producing and we interject some youth, and the team gels, which is quite possible, Willie & Omar will be heralded as heroes
they have positioned us to have this chance
now Mets fans and the media should sit back and see what happens
the rest of this chat is idiotic chatter and typical of the meddling Wilpons
I just hope they aren’t James Dolan wannabees
Reyes hasn’t been the same since he started sulking because Willie benched him for not running out the ball.
It is beginning to seem like the deal we made for Reyes (meaning his contract which was less than Wrights and not as lucrative), was the right move!
unless it’s Reyes’ realization that he got hosed on that contract that is causing his slump.
From mid 06 – early 07, Wright was in a slump. He broke out of it.
From mid 07 – early 08, Reyes was in a slump. TBD
Id have to say it, but look how the Braves have done it over the years. Although I think they are hanging on a little too much on the past success of smoltz and glavine, they have been a symbol of long-time success. The 80’s Mets and the team of 1997-2000 were short-lived successes. We have some great prospects (F. Martinez, Carp), who must see ML at-bats later this season.
I’m pleased that the Wilpons are thinking proactively.
Also, I feel that there is an aura of resentment towards the media and the fans from many of the Mets.
They have to realize that people are going to overreact due to 07.
Here are a few ideas:
1) Move Delgado out when (if) he does well; when he value is higher. Yes he is expensive, but a team may be willing to trade for him later on. The Mets will eat a good part of that salary but it’s better than getting nothing in return.
2) Get Carp up here after (if) Delgado is moved out.
3) Get Mr. Kunz ready to be our closer as fast as possible. I know some of you are going to throw darts at me for this. I feel that he is a bullpen cancer, which eventually divides a team. Trade, trade, trade, Wagner if the Mets turn out to be a .500 team during the Summer. The return will be good even with his contract.
I am guessing that Delgado will still be at least a type B FA so we would get something either way.
Is that category based on the prior year or the current year?
Im listening to the FAN…..Delgado is getting ripped by Mike. Maddog, a bitter Giants fan, is sticking up for the fans.
Out goes the steroids talk and in comes the right to boo talk.
Do you think Wright told him not to go out there?
I think it is based on at least 2 years and maybe the last 3. Either way, even though his stats were down last year they were still enough to net a Type B I am guessing.
Here’s the problem, fellow Mets fans— Omar is also trying to build a farm system while trying to win with stop-gap veterans like Alou. Can we really evaluate him until we see what FMart, Niese, and others can do? You can make an argument that he successfull built up enough value with Gomez, Guerra, etc. to enable the Santana trade. Mark that as a success.
Now Willie is another story. I think now until early June will likely tell the tale of Willie’s future. If we keep muddling along at or near .500, they may make a change. But I just have a feeling we are primed for a good streak. Looking at the NL, winning 5-6 in a row somewhere would put us right up there with the DBacks. Lets see if we can do that.
Did it really take you this long Matt to realize that we had to sacrfice a lot to jump this team into contention? That’s what ‘05 and ‘06 were all about, we sacrificed the farm and draft picks to pick up players. Admittingly, this team was horrible before that, and it needed to be revitalized, or else no free agents were going to sign with us, which is big. That being said, there’s no reason you can’t continue on from here. If they make bad moves, sure, the team will go sideways or backwards, but if the overall plan that is in place is a good one, you move forward. Omar’s made some ill-fated deals, but that happens, its about continuing on with a good philosophy. The problem is, Ny’ers want a winner, and after ‘06, which by the way was a surprise to I think even Omar, the fans want a winner right now, and definitely would not have settled last year or this year for a team that would “rebuilding” or “retooling.” You can’t have both Matt. Still, we’re a good team, and its far to early to judge this team, or declare how the season will go. SO many teams have defined their season later in the year and in the postseason, why can’t this team as well?
Look at some of the moves he made that get critizied. He made risky moves of older “safe” players to get younger players. He did not consider any of them necessary at the time to win now and they were too old for the future. Vargas and Bostick were two young LHP that we traded two aging MRP to get. Bannister was a solid #5 at best who did not currently have a position nor the celling that other prospects had so instead of wasting his value he traded him for a very young pitcher that hits 100 and had closing experience. If that worked out, maybe you have your Wagner replacement in a couple of years or Sanchez moves over and Burgos sets up. If it does not work out you lost a #5 pitcher.
I just don’t get how people critize him for getting older and younger?
hey i know it’s off topic but anyone hear anythign about 2nite’s game being cancelled or not? I got these tickets before the season started and got lucky with it being JOhan’s 2nd home start and Jets night…i really wanna make this game but it says rain ALL DAY and NIGHT long…
as of 2:00pm weatherdotcom says 90% chance of rain and thunder for Shea tonight.
It’s been raining lightly all day, but it’s been miserable. Heavier rain is expected to move in plus the thunder mentioned above. It’s not looking too good for tonight.
as I’m sure you now know (but if you don’t): potponed
You can’t really have a “transition year” with a 140M payroll. Injuries to Wright, Reyes, and/or Santana (knock on wood), could produce a sequel to The Worst Team Money Could Buy. And with the crowd’s obnoxious booing as it is in April, this could be a catastrophic season worse than last year. But in the meantime, let’s all Root, Root Root for the Home Team.
A course of action (ridicule as you wish): 1. Trade Ollie Perez. He’s a FA after this season and he’s infuriating. But he can probably bring back a high ceiling prospect or two (perhaps a 1B?). Pedro can fill his slot in the rotation. Nelson Figueroa stays in the five hole and you commit to Pelfrey, as inconsistent as he’s been. 2. Trade Heilman. His new role isn’t that hard to fill (e.g., Collazo). I’m not sure how much he’s worth, but he may be able to help restock the AAA level, if not with high ceiling guys, then at least with some mid-level kind of guys. 3. See if you can package Delgado in a Heilman trade. If not, see if you can get anything for him while eating a majority of salary. If you can get a young 1B for OP and can’t trade Delgado, dump him. 4. Replace Willie with someone who is more committed to youth and doesn’t just “trust” his “guys”. 5. Tell Alou he should retire. No trade value there and he shouldn’t just take a paycheck for nothing (though he will).
Look at what AZ and CO have done with their younger players. Mets are a ways behind because their decent guys are at the younger end of the spectrum, but all of these changes could have been impemented in the off-season.
Where to start? Why would a team trade a high celling pospect for a rental of Perez? Especially as inconsistant as he is? Not to mention what happens when Pedro gets injured again.
No one is going to take Delgado, you can’t just package players we don’t want and get value. Especially not when one of the makes 16 million a year. Even if a team was willing to dump a 1B for a rental pitcher, what 1B would you get? Another 1B in his last year of his contract or one with as many questions as Delgado?
What if Alou does retire, we will have Pagan full time and look for a backup. Uh we are already doing that so Alou and Pagan are actually protection for each other. If Alou does not come back healthy then Pagan keeps playing. If he does then Pagan is there. Same could be said if Pagan stops hitting.
As for Willie, I hate the “he’s my guy” comment but again what is he supposed to say. This guy sucks and I want someone else but I don’t have anyone? How many aging vets has he stuck with while there has been a replacement ready to go?
Pitching is at a premium and there are plenty of people tantilized by OP’s stuff. He would be in demand by teams that need starting pitching and hope they can either get the good OP or have a pitching coach who can fix the bad OP.
As noted, if there is no other option for Delgado, it’s time to dump him. I’m not sure he’s completely unmovable, depending on how much salary you eat, but if so, cut your losses.
Alou just takes playing time from younger guys like Pagan who may have a chance to develop. And then Alou gets hurt again so Pagan gets stuck on the bench not developing while Alou soaks up at bats for 3 weeks until his next hang nail or whatever.
As for Willie — let’s see. Last year’s rotating of re-tread pitchers in the 5 spot instead of going with Humber. His clamoring for a 2B because he didn’t like Gotay (who could actually hit). His insistence on using Julio Franco, who was more equiped to be team historian. I could go on.
The point with OP is no team is going to take a risk on a rental player. Why would you give up a good prospect for a player that needs “fixing” that you don’t even have time to fix?
Um, the mets gave up Kazmir for a fixer upper. So I am sure a team would take the risk. I would not be sad to see Perez traded for some prospects.
It wouldnt be a rental for Perez, whoever trades for him is going to try to work a contract agreement before they make the trade
test post
trying to post about Mets start last year, but it won’t let me. Maybe all mentions of last year’s hot start are banned.
One thing that did disappoint me is the way things were handled from the last day of the 2007 season. I’m not gonna boo anyone, but maybe the Mets should take a step back as an organization and look at it from the fans point of view.
The collapse was a disgrace. The manager was talking about sipping champaign while it was going on. Nobody was ever held accountable. They raised ticket prices. And if you sit in the upper level, you see the rooftop of the new stadium, so you’re constantly reminded that it’s going to be a smaller place, and if someone ain’t getting in next year, it’s going to be you.
Does any of that justify the booing? For me, no. But I’m not going to tell any other fan how they should feel. The attitude really has been something along the lines of “So we lost. We made money. We’ll try again next year. We’ll make more money because you’ll pay more. You fans can either A) accept it or B) stay home.”
Well, some fans found a third option. You’re hearing option C every night. I don’t agree with it, but I understand the motivation.
In one sense, I think they overreacted to a fear of overreaction, if that makes any sense. They took a step back after the collapse and observed a team that, apart from two weeks in September, was about to coast to a second consecutive division title. They decided that it wouldn’t be fair to expunge Willie based on a relatively brief swoon, and figured that change for change’s sake would throw them off of their organizational plan.
Well, there is really no overreaction to a historic meltdown. They should have dismissed Willie immediately. Sure, they would have incurred even worse press than they are now if the new manager hadn’t won, but in the long run, it would have been worth the risk.
That said, I think they really are making an effort to build from within. As I said at the time, Santana is a special case — a durable young ace of the sort that doesn’t come along very often. This is not five prospects for Paul Konerko, or something stupid like the old Mets would have done. If there have been real, significant changes, we may not have seen them — they would be a renewed emphasis on scouting and player development throughout the minors — finding talent and nuturing it. It’s a long process. We may see the big league club oscillating between contention and maddening mediocrity, but if the foundation is building all the while, you’re going to see a more consistent winner later on. Really, it’s in their interest to judge the GM (or at least part of his organization) primarily on how the entire system has grown. In that sense, you really do need to look beyond a two week collapse.
I don’t see any foundation being built. Any independent ranking of minor leaguers will have the Mets down near the bottom.
If the Mets start today rebuilding their minors, it will be about about 3 years before you start seeing the fruits of it. That is obviously the smart way to build a team, but it’s not what the Mets have been doing the past couple years.
Well, that’s a good point, actually. Omar has had enough time to implement changes to the minor league system. If he came in with a plan, it didn’t work. I just like to think (read: hope) that he’s learning on the job. And you never know — pressure from other parts of the FO (e.g., a Wilpon or two) may have knocked him off course.
But, (and I’ll respond to myself — sad), if a guy was drafted out of high school or signed in Latin America the year Omar came in, where would he be now? A or AA, and we seem to be doing well there. The system ratings tend to focus on players at higher levels, including last year’s AA team.
maybe Reyes, Beltran, and Delgado should meet up with Rick Down ( no offense HoJo, I think you’re fantastic), because they have been a shell of themselves since he was let go
Actually Delgado did really well last year after he was gone. He hit very well in September especially.
I liked HoJo as an batting coach until I heard him in an interview. He might be a great coach in relating how to handle yourself as a big league player, but he doesn’t know anything about mechanics.
David Wright sang his praises coming up through the farm system, but of course he did — HoJo was one of his heroes growing up. We’re talking about a career .249 hitter who struck out over 100 times a year consistently with a big looping imperfect swing.
I really don’t think he knows what he’s doing. I was shocked when I heard him start talking about it. Maybe we do need a move there.
Regardless of scrutinizing Minaya’s moves one by one, the bottom line for the owners is what are they getting for their money.
If they are shelling out $140 million for a .500 team that the fans are loudly booing all the time, it doesn’t exactly give them a warm fuzzy feeling. Especially moving into a new ballpark next year. The last thing they want is angry fans, because hey, we pay the bills!
No matter how you slice it, there’s no excuse for a team with the Mets’ payroll to be floundering so badly in the weak NL. Something will have to change.
Floundering so badly is a strong way to put it….a month into the season anyway.
This article is spot on.
The Mets clearly have had identity issue since last May. In 2007 they played with a sense of entitlement and had an inflated opinion of themselves. This year, they are simply flat and actually have no identity. I don’t understand how this much talent cannot develop any consistency whatsoever.
They’ve taken 3 of the last 4 series played against their biggest division rivals. Now, they have a perfect opportunity to sweep a bad team this week and pick up some legit momentum for the first time in last 162 games. Question is…do they know how to?
I’m not disagreeing with your post, but I think it’s a bit much to demand a sweep of any Major League team — even at home.
It’s hard to sweep any team. Period.
It’s even harder when you don’t have a plan of attack nor have displayed any ability to harness momentum over the last 162 games. That’s where teams with ability and talent (and payroll) to dominate simply don’t, and resort to being .500 teams. Complacency.
I seriously wonder, right now as I am typing 1.5 hours before gametime, if there is one player or coach in that entire Mets clubhouse (not named Wagner) that is saying…”Dammit…..let’s phuking sweep these guys!”
change ‘wonder’ to ‘doubt’.
And there in lies the issue.
Danny1986, this has got to be the first post I’ve seen extolling Wags as a leader instead of a whiner. Good for you.
hey…i don’t know what you saw on Thursday Night, but I saw Wagner as THE ONLY PLAYER on the steps of the dugout during the top of the ninth cheering for his teammates in a 10-5 loss at WASH.
Not one person on this blog mentioned this. But, of course, all the Oliver Stones suddenly come out of the woodwork 1 hour after Sunday’s win attempting to read David Wright’s lips as he supposedly told Delgado not to take a curtain call in the dugout.
just ridiculous.
what I’ve always seen out of billy is honesty and (mostly) great pitching, and you’re absolutely right. Again: good for you.
Interesting conjecture, Matthew, & well supported by a few things: first, at many positions and of course as a whole it’s quite easy to see the team as a mediocre outfit instead of an excellent one; second, the tenor of play has not changed from last year–sloppiness, politic responses, and a somewhat ambiguous atmosphere of expectations. It’s got Reyes perhaps the most bewildered, it prevents any real adhesion around Wright or Beltran, and might only be eliminated in full by a change in administration.
Of course, I might also be completely wrong.
Well said, Cerrone. A crossroads, indeed.
Personally, I am thrilled to read that the Wilpons’ honeymoon with Willie and Omar is over.
The mets were a joke before Minya got here!! Ever since he’s been GM, the team has been talented and a contender! Now people bash him? lol some Mets fans are just downright Idiots! U want to go back to the Last place Mets before Minya? The Mets that were laughing stalks of the league? If the Owner is tying up Minya’s job along with Willie’s then WIllpon should be fired! Minya and Willie should be seperate entities and Willie should be replaced with Minya still on board running the show.
Um, Adriano — who should fire Wilpon?
his money
My point is that the fate of this team is in the hands of some rich, imcomptant man who knows nothing if he fires a GM who built this team back up to respectability and as a contender every year.
This is the problem with people owning teams, they can’t be replaced if they stink!! Fans should own the team, just like in European football.
umm….Isn’t Mann U owned by an Glazer, and Chelsea owned by a Russian mob tycoon?
I didn’t say all teams. Benfica, for example, is owned by the members (paying fans) and they have assemblies where they hire a president to run the show.
May work in Socialist countries……won’t work here.
that makes zero sense.
nor is it clear who the hell you are talking to.
You see, there’s that phrase in blue font that says “Reply to the comment”.
give it a try.
I don’t buy the premise of any of this.
I was talking to a Braves fan today. He was lamenting the possible injuries of Smoltz and Hudson along with Glavine and Hampton. It occurred to me just how old they really are. Their starters are older than ours. They have no depth in the Bullpen. They have no depth in their starters. They are considering Buddy Carslile as a starter again.
On the other hand we have a 28 year old ace, two 25 year olds, a 31 year old and a 24 year old. I may be wrong about the exact ages but I’m not too far off. This doesn’t account for El Duque or Pedro. But this is a decent aged staff and they all are doing their job. Plus we have two to three guys in the minors ready to step in and help. We are thick with starters.
We have questions about what to do with Matt Wise when he comes back. If El Duque comes back he heads to the bullpen. If Pedro comes back Figgy heads to Sosa’s spot.
Our bullpen is in good shape.
We have to replace Alou and Delgado. Castillo still has his game. The rest of the team is younger and in playing days shape.
Now the Mets may not have drafted their entire minor league system. But it is very well stocked. They have traded and signed for a lot of Major League capable veterans. For example, look at their catchers. They had nobody as of this winter. Then they have three Major League capable catchers in the minors. Casanova, Cancel and Molina. This goes with Castro and Schneider. They are five deep at catcher. They have Armas and Vargas ready to start. That doesn’t include the possible option of Freddy Garcia later. They are in okay shape on the starters. They have position players to fill the roles in Triple A.
While they have depleted the position players in the minors, they have a lot of players at the B-Mets that are being groomed as strong prospects.
Basically Minaya knows the minor league system has been depleted. So he has built up a temporary stopgap of major leaguers to supply the main team while the system is replenished.
Its amazing that out of over 100 comments on this thread, hardly any mention has been made of one of the biggest blunders of the Mets over the last 5 years – which was only PARTLY Minaya’s fault….
and that was passing on a FA signing of Vladimir Gurrrero one year and then trying to make up for it the next year by throwing Fort Knox at a flash in the pan outfielder named Carlos Beltran.
Beltran was made the centerpiece of the NEW METS along with Pedro. But Beltran is a passive personality and only a mediocre offensive player who rarely hits in the clutch and actually had to be moved out of the three hole into the two hole at one point to improve his productivity.
Beltran is not a bust, he is a smooth outfielder and a steady offensive presence. But his is not a SUPERSTAR offensively the way Gurrero was and is and so the Mets still lacked for quite a while a reliable 3 or4 hole hitter even AFTER signing Beltran. They had to wait for David Wright to develop (remember Willie batting him 7th early on !!) to fill up the 3 hole.
Beltran to me is symbolic of what is wrong with this team. He is supposed to be the anchor and heart of the team but he is passive and not a leader… he is not Keith Hernandez or Gary Carter and he is nowhere near the offensive threat that Piazza was in his prime. He is a passive OK player and in a town that demands excellence or passion he has NEITHER.
And he is probably still the highest paid player on the team.
oh god, the ways a person who cared enough could dismantle a POS post like this. someone else take care of it please.
I cant wait till the day we fire Willie…I havent seen this team fired the start of 2007 season…Ive never seen Willie get thrown out of a game arguing or doing anything to get this team fired up…and its pretty clear the players arent getting fired up…we need a manager that will fight for our team and show some emotion
Beltran is worth every penny.. streaky and maybe not the #1 u want up evertime in a big spot… but pencil him in every yr for … 275, 30 and 100 and a gold glove CF
..no team in baseball wanted to touch Vlad off his injury, not just the mets…
next, im going to open a huge can of worms ..but here goes…
i love reyes …. but how much longer until we need to really think about what kind of player he is ….. he had 3/4 of a season in 2006 where he was God … off that 3/4 of 2006, people were picking him to be MVP next year … whats not to say hes a bit closer to the jose we are seeing now instead of that player in 2006 who was on absolute fire for 3/4 of the 06 season?
its not like he has a long career track record to look at…
i mean even as is, hes still a damn good player …
thoughts?
and i dont give a crap about AVERAGE AGE
our best players are
reyes, wright, beltran johan, perez, maine
3 best positions players and 3 best pitchers are young stars
Bingo. While others have 23 year old prospects. We have 23 year old established stars. I think the idea of having good prospects in the minors is moot. All they are good for is trading or somewhere down the road. You have no way of knowing whether or not they can crack the big team or contribute. At least we have guys in the minors who can crack the majors because they have done it already. They can contribute at minimum as much as other team’s prospects. Plus while they are able to immediately contribute, our prospects can develop.