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In the Daily News, Mike Lupica writes the following about the Mets, who are 14–12 and tied in the loss column for first place in the NL East:
“The team in baseball with the most to prove, the one that suffered the worst collapse in the history of their team and their city, acts too often as if it has nothing to prove…A year ago the Mets were the most entertaining team in baseball and too often now they seem like the opposite of that.”
According to the Lupica, ‘the Mets do not put teams away when they can; they do not blow teams away when they should; and occasionally there is a game like yesterday…when the Mets do not even bother to show up at all.’
Meanwhile, according to Mike Vaccaro in the New York Post, yesterday was, “a microcosm of what we’ve seen from the Mets for the better part of a full calendar year now.”
Wagner, speaking to reporters, about his teammates, following yesterday’s game:
“It’s easy to say, hey, you’re going to have games like this…But when there’s not a lot of effort and desire, that’s when you worry…I just think that today, we just didn’t show up. I’m not saying that Pittsburgh can’t beat the New York Mets. I’m just saying there’s no way we should have this lopsided of a score…There was no get-up-and-go, and that can’t happen. It’s something that can’t continue to linger…I guess it’s good to be in April and have a winning record and doing well in our division, but this isn’t something you want to transcend into May and June…these other teams are going to get better and we’ve got play with the same urgency and come out ready to play every day.”
…to me, it’s a matter of focus – not necessarily effort or desire…i feel like this team first lost focus last June, when they went through a 4–14 stretch…from that point forward they have looked like a different team than the one i watched from September 2005 through May 2007, after which they have played just over .500 baseball, all while looking like they have lost their confidence, or ‘swagger,’ looking as if they do not believe in themselves…
…i do not believe the answer is yelling and screaming…this is not the movie Major League…that is fiction…this is not…
…fact is, i do not know what the answer actually is…i think such a solution is difficult to suggest without actually knowing the personalities involved…but, i will say this, something isn’t right here…it feels like hesitation, or tension…that’s the sense i get from watching them play, talking with people who spend time in the clubhouse, watching and reading post-game quotes, etc…it’s like something is blocking their collective drain and it needs to be dislodged in order for these guys to ‘get going,’ as wagner says…i don’t know if they need someone to be fired, someone to be traded, released, acquired, promoted, etc…but, something needs to happen…maybe it’s as simple as a bit of team unity and a road trip to Arizona and Los Angeles…then again, maybe it’s more complicated than that…
…i’ve always been one to hold off on major moves until at least Memorial Day…the thing is, Memorial Day is now just a few weeks away…so, the clock is ticking, gentlemen…
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Well isn’t losing focus an indictment on the manager?
Fire Willie. Its probably more the players fault that his but he is not a very good manager and its harder to juggle the roster midseason when there is nothing on the farm. Fire Willie, bring in Backman or Carter or give the job to HoJo.
I tend to agree at this point. I think Willie is a good manager, but he is not a good manager for this time, at this time.
We need a shake up. Something to get the team going again, and I think a different manager would do just that.
14th time this year he has used 4 or more pitchers, great job Willy
Look Avery Johnson getting Fried by the Mavericks.. they want to WIN.. he didn’t… good bye Avery…
Someone else said Omar kept him to more or less bie his scape goat (a la Phillips and Valentine)… maybe.. maybe not..
In either case, Willie should of gone last season… a manager is a defined role, that can be replaced.
The best thing about Omar is that he makes the moves, and not team Wilpon… so despite his ups and downs, I’d rather have that then another Kazmir trade.
If it keep up, FIRE WILLIE.
Been saying this since last June, malaise comes from the manager.
what does willie have to do with the fact that oliver perez cant pitch?
you guys always aim at willie’s head like if hes the one playing on the field. the mets are a professional baseball team not a little league team therefore you dont need a coach yelling or screaming to fire up any team since they arent kids. if willie has do anything it should be to suggest to omar to put Oliver Perez on the trading block and send him with Jorge Sosa. The mets have several good relief pitchers in the minors and I’m pretty sure that Minaya can always find a decent starting pitcher if needed.
Listen Willy is a nice guy, but obviously its not working… Since the end of last season this team does NOT respond to him. If you want to sip the champagne he’s gotta go…
who do you replace him with?
i’d take avery johnson
Bobby Knight
isiah!
Danny, This team is flat and has been for some time. This is not about OP, this is about this team’s inability to show any degree of confidence across the board.
Mr. Met
Obama
It’s simple — Bobby V!
Ken Oberkfell, the Davey Johnson of the new millenium
George W.
I don’t care whom he’s replaced with. He needs to be replaced simply to shake up the team. He’s NOT a good in-game manager, and the team “lacks focus.” Reyes is in a tailspin, and a lot of it seems psychological. What does Willie bring to the table? Anything?
In a related story, this is exactly why I didn’t want Castillo re-signed. He lost it down the stretch last year. I suppose he’s here to stay, but if you expunge him, Delgado, and Randolph, you’re well on your way to taking the lead weights from around this team’s neck, in my opinion.
I dont think its that the team is not good….Its said that after a time a team will take on the personality of its leader/manager. Well, face it, Willie could be on the Titanic and think that there is just a little hole in the side of the ship! And now this team represents that. I dont have a problem with not yelling and screaming all the time because players will tune that out but seriously, there is a time to be mad and losing 13 -1 against a last place team with your number two pitcher going against a guy with an era of 8 is a damn fine day for a blowup. 14-12, everyone else is not playing all that well….thats like going to a party and saying its ok to drive home drunk because everyone else is doing it too. Enoughs enough guys…. We have no heart and until we fix that problem, until losing actually burns this team, we wont be champions.
14-12…thank goodness the marlins are in 1st place and not the phillies.
yah, the phillies have been w/out jimmy rollins for what…2 or 3 weeks? What happens when he comes back. Yah, thats right. Mets get rolled by the Phils.
The only reason were in first right now is the Phillies are playing as terribly as we are.
We’ve basically been playing without Reyes and Delgado for a year now. If those guys came back, we’d be in good shape.
Jimmy Rollins is overated. Not in the league of Reyes or Ramirez. He is not a leadoff hitter, he doesnt get on base nearly enough, and his power only comes from his park. He is probably the 4th or 5th most important guy on that team. Utley, Howard, and Hamels are all much more important to the Phillies then Rollins is. Utley is a true superstar, Howard is a true bomber, and Hamels is developing into an elite starting pitcher. Rollins is a leadoff hitter who hits .290 and will get on base at .335 and has good speed with artificial power from playing in a launching pad. He also plays good defense. Nice player, not a star, and overated. 3rd best player in his own infield.
Right on the money, gmoney! I couldn’t agree more. These guys gotta play like a team and not give up on a game just because they’re down. I’m sick and tired of this laid back “we’ll get them tomorrow” attitude. I understand that you can’t win every game, but you should at least try until the last out…it’s embarassing. I love Willie, but it’s becoming more and more apparent that he lost these guys in the clubhouse. There are managers who can take a mediocre ball club and make them play well and then there are managers who can take a club full of All Star talent and make them champions. One is not necessarily the other. I think it’s obvious that Willie can’t handle high profile guys. We need a change…
In your post you mention that a team will take on the personality of it’s “leader/manager”.
I would comment that while you can call Willie the manager, it is a huge stretch to call him their “leader”. That is the whole crux of the problem.
Maybe he could lead a kindergarten class during nap time, but given the way this team is sleep walking through the first quarter of the season, I hardly associatethe words Leadership and Willie.
Except that, when asked who the leader was, Wright said it was Randolph. Wright is always circumspect with his statements to the media, but if you take him at his word, what was probably intended to be a gesture of support for Willie actually ends up being pretty damning.
Something you hear in basketball is “every possession is important.” In baseball the game is paced differently and it’s a longer season, but every pitch is important and every at-bat is important. How do you bring a sense or urgency to every pitch and every at-bat?
you may not be able to bring a sense of urgency to every pitch and every at bat, but you can bring a sense of urgency to at least ONE at bat and ONE pitch, which the mets didn’t do at all last night. we are not asking for the impossible, just a little heart and a little fire
What I would suggest is watching a few games from the 2006 season. This team was having fun, playing defense, hitting the ball, pitching well. They did have something to prove because they hadn’t had success in a few years.
To me, that’s what made Joe Torre such a great manager for the Yankees. He was able to keep that team hungry. I think that’s what sets us apart from being a perennial winner. It’s the same thing that worries me about my football Giants this year. How do you stay hungry? For the Mets it should be simple. They didn’t win anything in 2006. David Wright said after Game 7…”…we’ll be back”. Well, we’re still waiting.
I dont know if you can bring a sense of urgency to every pitch or at bat like you can in basketball because basketball is such a fast game when compared to baseball. When i coached basketball i used to say one of the best things about the game is that if you made a mistake then you could make up for it two seconds later on the other end of the court. Baseball is not that type of sport. What you can do though is bring a sense of preparedness to every at bat and to every pitch. Whats our pitchers main problems? It seems to be an inability to focus consistently. What would we like to see our hitters do? Make solid decisions, not waste outs and I for one want to see Delgado slap balls down the third base line til teams get tired of chasing them!!! So bring a sense of preparedness to every pitch and at bat, and maybe that focus will be what leads to greater success
Wagner made an interesting point about the loss. I do not mind if the Mets lose 2-1 or 5-4 against Pittsburgh. But, when the team did not bother showing up then that is a cause of concern. To get blown out like the way they did against Pittsburgh yesterday is a huge indication of how the Mets will perform between now and Septemeber. Again everyone, including Randolph, needs to be held accountable. No if’s, and’s or but’s! They need to get the ball rolling and play like a team. Play like the capable team people make them out to be. Get back to fundamentals and get some fire!
Lack of focus is a direct reflection of the manager.
On a ship, if the crew don’t do their jobs because they aren’t focused that is an indictment of the captain. And if the captain does not regain control that ship may sink.
A little Drano on Willie…I love it! Guys, its been 150 games of this .500 baseball…this from a team predicted to walk away with the NL in the past 2 years.
Matt, you say that this isn’t the movie Major League. I know this. But most of those movies are hyperbole on the reality of the world, so under the exaggerations, there are some truths to the matter. Does anyone wonder how come Pagan has come back to reality right around the time Willie threw some cold water on his hot start? How about how Reyes has never been the same since he was benched for not running out a grounder yet Franco never ran out anything and was used over and over again? How about how Ollie continually got thrown under a bus and little by little he seems to care less and less? Guys, the message that this master motivator is sending is not being recieved or interpretted properly. Willie may have been a “winner” as a player, but his managing leaves alot to be desired. Maybe he will succeed somewhere else, but with this bunch, he is not going to.
PS. I think alot of it may be cultural. The hard-nosed, gritty style is great for old-school players, but that is not the Dominican/Latino way. I’m not saying one way is better than the other. I just don’t think they mesh well. And we all know how this team is constructed.
NY Cuban,
Not quite sure what you mean by your last comment? Hispanic players in general are not hard nosed or gritty? or just the hispanic players on the mets?
To be honest, I don’t think any player on this team is hard nosed and gritty regardless of ethnicity.
And yes, their are hard nosed gritty latino players in the majors. You make it sound like the “latino way” is a lazy type of baseball.
I may have misunderstood your statement – please correct me is so.
Not a lazy way, a flashy way…its a “its better to look good and lose than look bad and win”. Thats the jist of it. As a manager you need to understand that and harness it for the good of the team. I don’t like sweeping generalizations, but there is some truth to it.
As a latino myself, I’m not trying to insult anyone. I played Varsity HS in a mostly urban/latino area and it was one style of baseball. Then I played in college, in a predominantly caucasian school and it was different style.
I like to believe I am old-school type player/coach, (lots of hustle, “defense wins championships” mentality,) but now that I coach in my urban area, I realize that I need to change this philosophy to not alienate myself from my players. That’s the point I was trying to make.
that’s the impression i got from mariano rivera, jorge posada, bernie williams, and el duque when they were winning championships with the yankees.
That’s a fair rebuttal. I didn’t say all..I did say MOST. I will put myself out there for that. And on those teams, the personality was not a hispanic/latino presence like it is on Los Mets. There was a Jeter/Clemens/Pettite/Knoblauch/O’Neill. They were the minority (plus they don’t have that personality). Santana doesn’t either…again…I’m not saying they all do. But when one of the faces of your franchise (Reyes) plays that way, you try to maximize his performance to energize your team…especially when you pitch your team as Los Mets.
And again…I’m not saying one style is better than the other. I’m saying the players and Willie’s style are completely on opposite ends.
That’s the problem, Willie is managing like he has those guys on his team.
We don’t have, Paul O’Neil or Tino, or Jeter, or Mo, or Strawberry for that matter. Willie manages like Torre and Torre didn’t need to motivate those guys, they did it on their own.
Aside from Wright, and Johan, who would you consider “a gamer” on this team?
Unfair to compare the Mets to those Yankee teams… Yes. But that’s what’s gonna happen.
i would agree that willie’s style doesn’t match part of this team. the question is do we want to mold this team around willie’s style and wright’s for that matter or do we want it to be built upon the “new flashy style.”
my main reason for defending willie has been that i prefer willie’s style. i want the wright, wagner, alou “old school” style.
who is the manager that’s available who is flashy and has been a good manager? there are none because that style doesn’t work.
Cuban,
I totally understand now your “flashy” and “as long as i look good doing it” kind of way of playing for “some” hispanics.
I understand not everyone plays like this and I don’t want people getting on me either because I am hispanic too. And yes, I also have seen this kind of play from hispanic youths.
I think the player that best exemplifies this manner of play is Manny Ramirez with Mariano being on the other side of the spectrum.
Cuban, since you had to change your philisophy on coaching such players, any suggestions for willie?
I’m sure Manny has always been handled differently from whatever respective manager he has at the time.
Well, since you asked, at times it turns my stomach, but you almost have to ignore the things that irk you. The non-hustle, the showing-up late (I don’t know if this happens at the pro level, but it is a problem at the HS level), the fact that every grounder has to look pretty at the expense of some routine plays being botched. You can point out how much better they would be if they worked on their fundamentals, but never demean their “style”. You can’t publicly attack them (like the benching of Reyes), because they have always been coddled, so they will just tune you out. And once they tune you out, you are just a nuisance, no longer a constructive voice.
Zen, I would say Guillen worked for this type of player. Pinella might work, not sure. I think the key is to find the opposite of Willie. Someone who the guys trust strategically, and let their own energy motivate them. Rather than a motivator, who actually stifles their youthful exuberance, who the guys don’t trust strategically.
With a name like NYCuban I would think you would know better than to suggest (indirectly) that you know about Dominican players Cuban players or even “hispanics”.
What is an “Hispanic” or a “Latino” anyway?
One thing I can tell you as a first generation Cuban that knows a lot about the history of Cuban baseball is that Cubans (a unique Nationality) played with passion…at least before friggin Castro snuck in and stole the Island..
Please don’t insult my ancestry.
Yes…Cubans play one way and Dominicans play another. That is fact. Anyone here can say that is horrible stereotyping, but its fact. And thanks to Castro, there are too few Cubans playing the game…and ones who are there, play the gritty way I like to play. But for the purpose of this argument I lumped them into the latino style…after all the only Cuban on this team plays hard, works out harder than anyone, but is about 105 years old.
And believe me…I agree 100% when you say a “unique Nationality”…hence, they were very loosely included in this argument.
I feel better with your clarification-
I knew you had to be OK if you had Cuban blood!
Cheers-
I am sorry, enough is enough. This team is underachieving and not focused. This falls on the manager. This isn’t just 2008, this is from June of last year.
Fire him now and lets get moving. Why do we have to wait? This is nothing new. Don’t know about all of you, I don’t just want to win, I want to dominate. This team is good enough the dominate!!
My manager replacements:
Gary Carter
Frank Robinson
Wally Backman (I know, won’t happen)
Trade Willie for Sweet Lou?
Carter, Mazz
Guillen???
I am fine with Guillen, but has to get fired by Chicago first
Mazz is good as well…or Oberkfell. Anyone but Willie.
Personally I would love Davey Johnson back, but he is managing for the olympics right now.
I had Alou on my list, but I don’t know how much change that will bring
Mazz has agreed with everything Willie has done so far, so how much of a real change do you see there?
He works for SNY…how much can he publicly disagree? He probably likes Guiseppe Franco too.
Funny how I see all those other guys working on their other shows agreeing and disagreeing with what Willie does. I dont see the guys in the booth kissing Met butts constantly. Mazz is suppose to be in there as an analysist to say what he thinks about whats going on, and by the looks of everyone else working on shows for SNY, has the freedom to say what he wants. He chooses to agree with what Willie has been doing. Again I ask, whats the real change in putting him behind the wheel?
As for Guiseppe, I think his writings on this blog have provided much needed humor here.
Why not Backman? Granted he had his share of personal problems in years past ( remember how the Diamondbacks hired him, only to fire him within a few days.) Do you think he has black listed?
I think he is black listed. I dont think the Wilpons would even discuss the option. Carter to me fits that mold, with no character issues.
I do not see the Mets hiring a manager with no big league experience this time around
I’m ready to take the helm – any helm at all – just un-black-list me NOW. I have the FIRE!!!
Okay Wally Backman…you got the job! Don’t mess this up! :0)
Tony Pena?
KEITH HERNANDEZ!!!! Not that would EVER happen. No WAY Keith puts a jersey on again…..but it would be reaaaal nice
You think Keith wants to sit in the dugout for 162 games? I’m sure he’s more than happy with what he’s doing now. He doesn’t work a full schedule, he’s only held accountable for his own actions (like with the female in the Padres dugout), and the pay probably ain’t too shabby.
MAZZILLI would be my choice, but I think Frank Robinson would be worth a look. That dude is ole school will not put up with any cry baby excuses.
Too many games with just two hits. They never break the game open. Let’s see what happens when Alou comes back but if this continues the Manager must go and as much as it pains me – the hitting coach.
I don’t want to argue with people over whether or not Willie is a good manager or not … or who is more to blame, Omar or Willie.
The bottom line is something has to change. The best way to change that something is by getting the manager out of here. He is the wrong fit for this team.
Too late though … it should have been done at the end of last season.
I think both are. I think Omar contructed a team that does not mesh with Willie’s personality and I think Willie is too rigid/stubborn to change to get the most out of the players he has. At this point, after the Collapse, the players themselves have lost faith in Willie’s ability. Which is why we need a change.
I think both are too. For every great move Omar makes … he makes a clunker that totally contradicts the great move. He lets friendships dictate contracts and relies too heavily on aged veterans. He put together a flawed team.
Willie is just not the right fit for this team … his message doesn’t get across … and it seems he’s not respected by the players, or at least, held in high regard.
So yeah, I’m with you … we need a change.
Yea, I think the chemistry is solely Omar’s responsibility, but I think he has done an incredible job in getting the talent we need. He has made some poor moves, but they don’t come close to counter the huge moves and acquisitions that he has made. We went from acqiring the likes of Mo Vaughn, Zambrano, Alomar, Benson, etc. (and those were our BIG moves) to getting Beltran, Santana, etc. These are players that are arguably the best at what they do in all of baseball. Omar has gotten huge players, and surrounded them with complementary players to keep the payroll “reasonable.” I do agree though, that some of those complementary player moves haven’t worked out very well. But this team is much closer to being successful and competitive than before Omar got here. All you have to do is picture Zeile’s “curveball” getting mashed by hitters to remember what a joke this franchise was not too long ago.
I like Omar … I mean, no GM is going to be perfect. For the most part he’s done a good job and I think he should stay for now.
I really think the manager has to go now. A change has to be made. And if that doesn’t change anything for the better this year … then maybe Omar has to go later.
I agree. I don’t think these players will ever play their best for Willie, he’s not a good fit. But maybe firing him now is better than firing him at the end of last year. In the players mind, it probably wouldn’t have been taken as seriously if he was fired after last season. I think it would have seemed like the colapse was just an aboration, and Willie got fired unjustly, but now that the trend is continuing, it is obvious that things won’t change while he’s the manager, and his firing now will be more effective.
Thats a good point … but how long do you think they need to accept that the trend is continuing? I mean … how long does this go?
How long do the wilpon’s let this go? They have a new stadium to open, do they really want this to turn into a Knicks situation with the Fire Willie chants ringing from the upper decks in your final season at Shea?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying to be patient with Willie here. Every time they get embarrassed, and I hear Willie say “it’s just one game” or “it’s a long season” or some other saying that makes losing easier for them, it aggravates me immensly. I think the time has come. I think with the right manager, this team will DESTROY teams like they should. Find the right manager, and make the change now.
You can tell they take the “its one game” attitude. It was extremely evidant yesterday. Granted i doubt the team would score 14 runs to beat the pirates but they were checked out of that game after the first. Im not saying we gotta win every game but show some fire and heart. After that beat down we can only walk away with 2 hits…..Something is wrong. We dont see what happens in closed doors but w/e they are doing is not working.
The title of this blog (one million gms) is very apropos. Mets fans tend to micromanage every game. Within the context of the season, any 1, 2 or even 3 games is relatively inconsequential, especially in April. The team is 14-12. Am I happy? No, but we’ve got a better record than several teams that had very high hopes this year. The Yanks are 14-15. Clev and Det are 13-15. Col is 11-17. I don’t see the fans of these teams panicking.
Personally, I’d be a heck of a lot more worried if I were a Yankee fan with only 2 consistent starters and my 2 most important hitters on the DL.
I think there are some real positives on the team, namely:
1. We lost El Duque and Pedro (and our 2 starting catchers) and we are still holding our own.
2. Sanchez and Wagner have been sensational.
3. Ryan Church
4. Our starters (despite yesterday) have pitched pretty well.
5. Alou, Schneider and Pedro should be back soon.
6. After everything said and done, we are 1/2 game out of first, tied with the Phils, and 2 1/2 games ahead of ATL. And we beat the phils 4/6 this year.
And we have given up less earned runs than any team in the NL except ARZ.
I don’t know about everyone else, but I’m just not that worried at this point.
They can’t score 14 runs in a week. Even the games they have won this year, their offense has not been impressive at all. How many times are they going to score runs on passed balls, walked batters, and errors? Granted, they are runs, and they are wins, and we’ll take those. Tough to sustain that kind of luck though.
For once, I would like to see them score 9 runs, with the aide of a base clearing double and a few home runs. Then I’ll be convinced that there is a glimmer of hope that this team is back.
Maybe Jose Valentin will surprise us and come back this year to supplant Castillo and give us some pop out of the 8-hole. It’s OK to dream, right?
LEE MAZZILLI is the man we need. He at least will bring some fire to this team and light a fuse under the butts of players who are underachieving….Willie is a laid back bench coach from the Joe Torre yankees and he has been a failure as a coach of the Mets. Give MAZZ a shot!!!!
This same Mazz thats been agreeing with everything that Willie’s done so far? Thats the solution?
I’ve been semi-defending Willie with the argument that it’s hard to blame him for the fact that Ollie can’t throw a strike, or Wright can’t hit in April, or Delgado has aged prematurely, or Beltran… etc etc etc…
But, after watching yesterday, I guess all I can say is switching things up couldn’t hurt!
but how about Delgado dogging it? or Franco dogging it last year? Or 2-words…JOSE REYES?
You can’t blame this on Jose Reyes. While it is his job to get on base, he won’t be batting .400 any times soon. The 2006 team picked eachother up when someone was struggling. The 2008 team all struggle at the same time and look lifeless. If Reyes doesn’t get on base, we need Castillo or Wright to do so. If Delgado is struggling, the guy behind him needs to hit a little more to take some pressure off him.
No…I’m saying Willie sucked the life out of those guys….they stopped playing for him.
I totally agree, maybe with the exception of Delgado, he’s just done, and I think his attitude is part of the problem.
“If Delgado is struggling, the guy behind him needs to hit a little more to take some pressure off him.”
Who is this myserious “guy behind him” that you speak of? I assume he can hit .400.
Yeah it’s kinda hard to pick up a guy who’s hitting .150 on the season. Should I have said Angel Pagan?
Getting a new manager would take care of two of my biggest gripes. 1) Willie just doesn’t get the job done, 2) who else could possibly look at Delgado and objectively say he still has gas in the tank.
I think we should get faux Dunkin’ Donuts shirts cut from the America Runs on Dunkin thing. You know, the one with the logos?
It should read, “Carlos Runs on Fumes”…pictures will be, (his silhouette), (stick figure running – with a glove on his hand and a ball going under it), the word “on”, (picture of car releasing carbon dioxide)
‘the Mets do not put teams away when they can; they do not blow teams away when they should; and occasionally there is a game like yesterday…when the Mets do not even bother to show up at all.’ ……THIS RESUMES THE 2008 METS!
Shave their heads! That always fixes things…for awhile.
lollllll i agree lollll
Does anyone else think alot of it may be cultural? The hard-nosed, gritty style is great for old-school players, but that is not the Dominican/Latino way. They are more flashy (Manny, Reyes, Soriano, etc) I’m not saying one way is better than the other. I just don’t think they mesh well. And we all know how this team is constructed.
Any coincidence that the ones thriving under Willie happen to be the non-latinos (Wright, Church, Schneider, Wagner)?
I think that may have something to do with it. I wouldn’t even say it’s “cultural” … I’d say more “generational”.
Willie doesn’t seem to realize that the players of today are a totally different animal than the players of yesterday. He’s too set in his ways and too stubborn to realize that the “old way” doesn’t work.
Part of the problem is that Willie sees himself as a 53 year old baseball player. I can’t point to specific examples right this minutes, but I’ve heard at least of few of his meetings with the media where he completely defined himself that way. Next time he does it I will back this statement up.
So you have a guy who still sees himself that way, and of course his peers are going to be the older players. At least a few times I have had the feeling that he saw a young guy playing hard as “showing him up”
Last week he was asked if he “treats his kids the same way he treats his veterans”, and he said he’s very proud of his three kids and the way they’ve turned out. Either this guy was fooling around, or he’s completely clueless. Either way, it was the WRONG answer.
Did he really answer the question that way? I missed that because I stopped watching his post games for the most part. What a way to dodge a question if he said that.
He said it on Mike and the Mad Dog. And it was exactly that way. Of course they just let it go at that.
If the non-Latinos are the one’s who are thriving, then Marlon Anderson should be starting since he should be mashing the ball all the time.
That’s probably the worst argument I’ve heard.
Marlon Anderson is better than Carlos Delgado right now.
I hate to even address the racial aspect of the team, because people will always take what you say out of context and you end up looking bad.
But I will say one thing. There was an issue last season where Tony Bernazard was telling some of the Hispanic players that if they had any issues or concerns, they should go right to him and he would take care of it. That is not me stating an opinion of what has gone on, it’s a statement of fact.
And that’s a very bad thing. It completely undermines the manager. Willie was not hired to be a great in-game manager. He was hired to be a motivator of what was an improving line-up at the time, and evolved into a team that just missed the World Series, and was good enough to win it in 2006. But here you have someone telling some of the players to bypass their motivator and come to him. I would guess at least some of these guys have taken him up on the offer.
Then the Nationals come to town, and Manny Acta (who I do like) is treated like returning royalty.
I don’t like Willie, but the reality is he probably never really had a chance to manage the entire roster his way. That creates division among the roster, and it’s bad for the organization as a whole.
Thank you, AlreadyMissShea! I knew this argument would get all the arrows pointed at me, because apparently it is taboo to touch upon anything related to race/culture. Its ok because the reality is that I do think there is a disconnect between Willie and his players. And I think there may be something at the root of this. In addition to the Bernardzard/Acta examples you mentioned, how about the rumors about Franco being the leader of the Latinos and Willie getting rid of him (and I hated Franco)…that might have built up some extra resentment. I’m not taking sides. For as much as I want Willie gone, I like his playing style….I like what he wants to get across. I just don’t think he went about it the right way, and it this point, its too late.
Santana,(early)Pagan,Sanchez, Feliciano
I think you are right that this team has a weird composition that does not seem to be working right now..(and for a while). I think its as mikey said a generational thing than anything. We just do not have a consistant spark plug and i believe that affects the team greatly. If its not a player then it should be the manager who sparks the team but we all know how well willie does in that department. There in lies the problem i think. Theres no spark or anything encouraging to look fwd to than santanas next start. Im not saying lo duca was the answer because theres a difference between spark and temper, but when you look at this team who do you think can step up and say something to fire/inspire this group.
I don’t consider Willy to a “hard-nosed, gritty style” manager, he just seems to be emotionless, lifeless, whatever you want to call it, but definitely not hard-nosed and gritty IMHO.
I agree with this being a reflection of the manager. The even keeled Willie style has obviously rubbed off on the team who seems to be rationalizing rather than getting angry. Yesterday’s loss should light a fire under them, and Wagner can’t fire up the entire team. Willie needs to express some urgency. And if he is already, he needs to find someone on the team who can get them fired up. Since mid last season, this team has been on autodrive, but going downhill.
Past couple games, I see some more emotion from Beltran and i like it…This team needs to get angry! Enough with Willy’s nice guy approach.
This team is sub .500 over the last 10. We have a weekend series with the best team in Baseball. The rest of the NL east has relative easy match ups this weekend. We could be in the cellar real quick. I don’t know if we have the luxury to wait till Memorial day.
Amazing and telling that after all the talk about booing, the fans all too negative approach to the team, and the need to cool our jets and let the team settle into the season,… after all this ringing in our ears, and their ears, they decide to turn in a performance like this. Amazing, disheartening, distracting, and disturbing. It’s also telling because this is how the team decides to answer their critics. It’s not just on Ollie’s shoulders either, though he must be rethinking his agent’s negotiating strategy during his walk year. The whole team stunk it up. Like watching a bad Little League team trying to figure out how to play with a team of LL All-Stars. Pathetic. Any other time I’d pass it off as one of those games that occur from time to time. But again, for this team, as the focus of so much derisive attention lately, to play like this, is intolerable. Very glad Wagner spoke up. Arizona will certainly be the testing ground for this team, and for us fans. If this teams blows up on this road trip Shea will become a hell for them. And then they can turn inward, and console each other about unfair and nasty Mets fans are. Bad stuff is in the air, and it could get much worse.
Last year, this team turned it on in Arizona. We’ll soon see what this team is made of. I hope mightily that yesterday’s performance brings out the hunger to kick some butt.
It is time to fire a manager when you suspect that an elaborate “Weekend at Bernie’s” scam is going on right before your eyes.
Has anyone tried to check Willie’s pulse in a while? I bet the man has been clinically dead for two years and nobody has noticed.
Everyone relax.
It’s still one day after April, and we’re still tied in the loss column for first place!
Ok, so when do you start to worry? One day after may? One day after August? When?
Relax…wow. I can’t believe there are still people that can’t see reality.
Relax? You didn’t seriously type that with a straight face did you? This team is 4-6 over it’s last 10 and had the biggest collapse ever in baseball the end of last year. Who need the reality check here?
Guys…
It was sarcasm.
This team is a mess. They’re lucky they’re 2 games over .500 because they have looked far worse than that. I stopped relaxing nine months ago.
I have been a huge Willie supporter around here, but I think a very good argument can be made that since last year, he has lost the focus on this team. It explains the “bored” comments and the lack of focus, and the 13-1 losses on afternoon games before travel days. I would love for there to be a scenario where the Mets turn out of this and everyone keeps their jobs, because I think Willie did an amazing job with a 2006 team that may have had more flaws that the last two years. However, for those who think Willie is more to blame or Omar is more to blame, I think the proper course of action is to put in a new manager mid-season and see if the players respond and turn it around. If they continue to have these mail it in efforts, then you ax Omar at the end of the season and hope you can find a competent replacement with a long-term strategy.
100% correct … every word of it.
I agree 100%. You have the solution Constnza
I agree but therein lies the major problem the biggest being WHO. Who do you bring in to shake things up, who out there can gain the respect of the players, who can come in and immediatly make a difference to the point that we all say willie who…
Once we/omar figure that out….Maybe your sentiments may come to pass but until then we are stuck with a manager that cannot manage his team.
Who is important — I think a case could be made for a guy like Mazzilli, who was really saddled with a sinking ship in Baltimore. Obkerfell has paid a lot of dues in the minors. I’m less impressed with a guy like Gary Carter, and there’s no way the Wilpons take on Backman and his baggae, but there are people out there. They may not be sexy “names” but I think if the team continues to play like this, they just need a change of pace. A guy with a different philosophy. He doesn’t need to be a table thrower either – just a guy who embraces these guys different. I think like in any other work environment, after a while a leader embraces “his guys” and no one else. Sometimes just the fact that there’s a shake-up will snap some guys back into a waking state.
cue “Ode to Joy”.
101% agreement.
So you fire Willie (and I will come around to this if they continue to play inconsistent and hang around .500 the next few weeks.)
Do you get rid of Peterson? What about the rest of the staff?
I like the rest of the staff, so I would be inclined to bring in someone fresh at the top- perhaps Oberkfell. Felipe Alou would be interesting, but I just checked– he’ll be 73 on May 12 and I don’t know if he’s done or not. Davey Johnson? Probably not. Believe it or not, Tony Pena might be a good fit– and we could just let the Yankees and Girardi have Willie back.
We need an ex-Met Lee Mazzilli is the right all around fit…..Give him a shot….He is the right age for this team and he can handle the vets as well as the young guys….
How did Mookie do managing the Cyclones? I have to admit I didn’t really follow them at that time. Any idea how he left the position? I know he’s on good terms with the Mets again. And he already has more managerial experience than Willie had when they hired him.
I’m just throwing it out there, so if he was a disaster, don’t bury me for bringing it up! :)
And maybe I’m also a little bit blinded by the fact that he’s one of my all-time favorite Mets.
When I say he’s on good terms with them again, I mean he did want out of here when he was a player, but he did manage the Brooklyn team and he does do visit the booth sometimes… At least he did as recently as last year.
Then again, they will probably want to go with a manager with some big league experience next time around.
Mookie wasn’t so good. Teufel wasn’t much better. But the worst was Hojo. He was God-awful running that Brooklyn team. It was also the only time he managed a team, so I think we should be safe if we kept Hojo away from the manager’s chair.
I always liked Edgar Alfonso as a manager. I sat and talked baseball with him for about an hour and he’s very intelligent. I wish they had moved him up the chain and could be given a chance, but I think the Wilpon’s prefer high-profile names than someone who could actually do the job.
I know everyone wants to blame the Manager and I think he bears blame but look at these stats:
Jose Reyes last year:
April, May June avg .318 obp .397 slugging .465
July, Aug, Sep .247 .312 .392
HOJO hired July 13.
July 7, Reyes benches for not running out a ball.
That is the day Reyes stopped caring about what Willie said…and that is the day we lost the Reyes we all loved. I’m not saying Willie was wrong in benching him or that Reyes is wrong is sulking about the double-standards for veterans and young players. I’m pointing out an observation.
dont forget Pagan… Willy totally killed his confidence
Reyes dip also coincides with his public humiliation at the hands of Randolph, which may have been the right “old school” move to do for a player who was as lazy as Reyes, but not a smart move consider how Randolph had double standards with his veterans.
HoJo has done a great job turning Wright around, got more production out of Delgado in the second half, Beltran had a better second half, Church has a much better approach with lefties so far under HoJo’s supervision.
The one thing I have to say about that is Reyes was very wrong and if Willie did nothing, then he’s REALLY not managing. Reyes has to be mature enough to get past that.
Of course, the very next day Castillo did essentially the same thing, and Willie did nothing. In his post game comments Willie said he didn’t see it.
Also HoJo has worked with Schneider and our “light hitting defensive catcher” has hit better than I thought he would. Sure it’s a small sample, but so it’s nice to see.
There are several problems with this team that need to be adjusted in order for us to get into some type of rythem. We have the talent to go on a good long win streak but for some reason it just never gets done. The team composition is definatly problem number one. The majority of the team is to bland and just emotionless with the exception of reyes but hes not consistant enough to fire up the team. We need someone that can fire up the troops on a daily basis to go out there and fight. This of course should be willies job but i believe he is the second problem on this team. He may be a decent manager but we all know there are some managers that their style clashes with their team. The way willie manages i think does not go with the composition of this team. We need a with the stratigic ability of a bobby cox or larussa mixed with some fire like carter. Granted that would be the perfect manager but we need someone like this to manage this team. Willie seems to be tooo lax. Why cant willie acknowledge pagans hot streak that probably put us in the position where we are at now or just acknowledge any accoplishment his team makes.
We gave willie a shot at the managing gig and we gave him a hellova team to do it. I think he has done a ok job at it but its time to move on. I know alot of the teams failures come from the players but look at how the team picked each other up in 06 and how that trend dissipated through the years. I agree omar needs to shake this team up somehow but again like matt i have no idea how he can or what he can do.
But we have one million gms here, one million gms is always better than one lol.
WILLIE IS THE EASY TARGET DEJOUR. THE LOWEST HANGING FRUIT TO BE PICKED. I SEE THIS TEAM AS A BUNCH OF GUYS AFRAID TO MAKE MISTAKES, PLAYING ON EGGSHELLS, ETC. WHO ARE THEY AFRAID OF? IT’S LIKE HAVING A DOG WHO’S AFRAID OF BEING KICKED. WELL, WHO’S KICKING THIS DOG REPEATEDLY? ANYONE HAVE A MIRROR? WITH ALL THE POSTINGS I’VE READ ONE WOULD NEVER, EVER BELIEVE THEY WERE FROM FANS OF A TEAM IN SECOND PLACE TO AN ABERRATION. VERITABLY IN FIRST PLACE. I WOULD TRULY LOVE TO TELL ALL OF YOU TO JUST IGNORE THE PAPERS, WFAN, SNY AND JUST WATCH THE GAMES, JUDGE FOR YOURSELVES, LOSE THE NEGATIVTY BEING FOISTED UPON YOU. FORGET THE YANKEES & THEIR FANS. WE ALL KNOW YANKEE FANS ARE REALLY MET FANS WITHOUT IMAGINATIONS. THE YANKEES DON’T MATTER, EXCL 6 G WE DON’T COMPETE ON THE FIELD WITH THEM. SURE THEY NEED TO HAVE THEIR MANAGER WEAR #27 BECAUSE THEY OBVIOUSLY CAN’T CONT PAST 26 ON THEIR OWN. BACK IN THE 80s, AS MET FANS, WE HARDLY EVER CONSIDERED THEM . THE YANKS WERE INCONSEQUENTIAL. YES, THE NYM WERE DOMINANT; BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN THERE WEREN’T COMPLAINERS TRYING TO TURN US NEGATIVE. HELL, EVERY GAME WE HAD TO LISTEN TO McCARVER WHINE ABOUT HOW DEEP DARYL WAS PLAYING.
WILLIE IS CERTAINLY NO GIL HODGES OR DAVEY JOHNSON; BUT REMEMBER THESE AREN’T THE SAME PLAYERS. THEY’RE TALENTED, YES, BUT FIGHTERS, NO. WHO BETS ON THEM TO WIN A FIELD BRAWL Vs ANYONE, LET ALONE THE PHILLIES. THIS ISN’T OMAR’S DOING, IN MY OPINION, IT’S FREDDIE’S. HE HATED THE 86ers ROWDINESS. HE WANTS QUIET CHAMPIONS. HE COULDN’T WEAIT TO JETTISON BACKMAN, DYKSTRA, ETC. BACKMAN WAS SENT AWAY FOR A TRIO OF INJURED MILB PITCHERS, NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN. DYKSTRA DEALT IMMEDIATELY AFTER MOOKIE AND TO A DIV & GEOGRAPHIC NEIGHBOR. McDOWELL DISPATCHED SIMILARLY. THE DIRT ON THE UNI, TAKE NO PRISONER 86ers WILL ALWAYS BE OUTLAWS IN FREDDYLAND. ALWAYS REMEMBER PHILLIPS WAS FRED’S GUY NOT NELSON’S. FRED DIDN’T WANT PIAZZA SO NEITHER DID PHILLIPS. FROM A FAN POINT OF VUIEW, THE WRONG PARTNER WON OUT. DOUBLEDAY WAS WORN DOWN; BUT ALWAYS HAD MORE FAN THEN OWNER IN HIM.
That’s all roughly correct. One problem, though….you cannot fire the owner.
Although I have liked Willie in the past I think he has lost the team. As Wags said, we can not just not show up against a team that we are more than capable of winning. Looking back at the end of the year for one more WIn that couldhave got them into the playoffs, well, here’s another easy W that they let slip by. Not sure who should be brought in but something needs to change, HoJo I like a lot, but nobody is hitting besides church (and he leads the team in strike outs) so HoJo might need to be switched to a different position too and I don’t think its manager. Mazzelli may work, but wasn’t he on Torre’s bench too? not sure he’ll cut. I guess Backman or Carter but I’m sure I only feel that way because I know they have proven themselves World Series Champs in NY.
Well, I don’t think its a matter of coaching, rather its about the players we have on the field. I am begining to think that there where some mistakes made when building this team. They just aren’t good enough.
When you look at the line-up, the only guys I feel would could do any damage in the line-up are D-Wright and Beltran. Those are the only two that I really think have the potential to break a game open. Oh, and Maybe Ryan Church. Beltran is not 100% and is slow getting started, so its just D-Wright. Two years ago there was danger up and down the line-up.
Second base is a problem, as well as first base. The Castillo signing was a waste, especially when Orlando Hudson becomes a free agent next year.
willie shouldn’t even be getting on the plane to arizona. does anyone seriously think he has what it takes to wring a championship out of this team anymore? and if not, what’s the point of keeping him?
too late….he was on that plane to Arizona yesterday afternoon. Somewhere around the 5th inning or so.
I’m never one to scream about managers being fired, but ow I am starting to agree with most of the comments above that Willie has to go. I loved the hire after the Art howe debacle…thinking we needed a NY guy with NY attitude, but that has not been the case. i started thinking that a few weks ago when Church obviously beat out a throw to first and clearly looked into the dugout as if to say “where is my support” and Willie did not move.
I agree it is not Willies fault that Oliver cant find the strike zone. It probably isn’t his fault that Reyes OBP is way down, or that Beltran is slumping, or Delgado is getting older by the day. But it also wasn’t Rick Down’s fault last year that the offense disappeared. But there is always a scapegoat. Something isn’t working and needs to be shaken up. This team just doesn’t not seem to have the attitude to rattle off a 9 game win streak. I just get the sense that a lot of players have tuned Willie out, starting with Wagners comments after last season. Sometimes a change of faces is needed like when Phil Garner took over the astros and they go to the NLCS that year and WS the following year, or when Bob Brenly took over the D backs (with no prior managerial experience). These were teams that had the talent, but not the results.
I have no idea who to replace him with. Do you think it’s smart to bring someone in who has not been around the tem ..likea backman or carter, who might have to take time to get familiar with the personell? Hojo has no managerial experience, but I honestly think that is overrated. i am a believer that if you know the game, then you know the game. Joe Girardi only had one year of experience as a bench coach before he got the Marlins job.
Very well said, Mookstra. The bottom line is, Willie is not the right man for this job.
So, who is? How about Lee Mazzilli or Jerry Manuel.
Hey, anyone know what Davey Johnson is up to these days?
Davey is managing the US Olympic team
Getting rid of Wille won’t improve our second base and first base situation. It won’t turn Angel Pagan into anything more than Angel Pagan. It won’t make Alou any younger.
In other words…..we’re **** out of luck? No hope? Not a chance?
Well, we know who’s acting and sounding like our leader–WAGS!
I have bellyached the loudest about supporting our guys through thick and thin, no booing, etc., but yesterday’s loss was too disgusting and unreal; yes, I woul’ve booed the shI% out of ‘em!
We are about to face three pitchers who so far are a combined 14-1!!
Where the F_ is the fire on this team?! What are we doing?! I was sure w/ the collapse our guys would come out w/ a freakin’ anvil on their shoulder…ready to rip. So far, so bad. The “winning” record is a huge misnomer of sorts.
Somebody has got to get in somebody’s face (s). I think Wags took the first step. He’s kind of like a not-so-kind Tug Mcgraw, and right now I’m glad we’ve got ‘em!
A couple of thoughts.
I always thought that bringing in an inexperienced manager for the Mets under Minaya’s campaign made as much sense as handing over the keys to Porsche to a 16-year old newly licensed driver. The question here is, not whether they’ll be able to drive the thing, afterall they did pass the driving test, but whether they’ll be able to fully exploit its capabilities. I think the answer to that analogical question is becoming clearer as this season rolls on.
I concluded with one of my colleagues, who is a Mets fan, that we are among the organizations that get the least out of the most. From wrong free agent signings to bad player development, over the past 15 years or so since MLB became as much of a money game as it is a sport, the only team that has done substantially worse is the Texas Rangers.
But that doesn’t matter as the team is making a ton of money.
Fri night Willy will be hosting the psot game show on SNY cause mazz will be coaching…
Why wait nothing is going to change. This is not a Tom Coughlin situation. This team will not play for Willy.
i’ve said it a million times and i’ll say it again: the ONLY reason willie randolph was kept as manager was that he had two years and a lot of money remaining on his contract. if he did not have a signed contract or even one year left he would NOT have been back. so the decision was basically about money! which is so stupid, considering the collapse
Willie came in with a no-nonsense reputation that he hasn’t lived up to. It’s beginning to feel more and more like this team needs a huge shakeup, perhaps including the dismissal of Randolph.
There are a few guys (on the big league roster)that should be kept –
Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Church, Santana, Maine, and Wagner. That’s a pretty decent nucleus.
Anyone else on the big league roster should be fair game, because the team as currently constituted is not going to win.
I hesitate to trade F-Mart, or guys like Niese, Carp, Parnell, and some of our other up and coming talent, simply because the “cut and paste big free agents and stars” approach has gotten the team nowhere.
If the Mets are still playing this kind of ball around the trade deadline, Omar and ownership should consider adopting the perspective of the seller, and try to get back some near ready big league talent. Even if we are close to the top of the division, a team playing this kind of ball is not a World Series contender. St. Louis in 2006 was very much a fluke.
Of course, it could be just a bad month, and from here they turn the corner and take off. But at this point I seriously doubt it.
Sellers when you are in the race? Maybe dead weight guys that you can get players to help you this season but not sellers. And if you dismiss the Cardinals, I am assuming you dismiss last year’s Rockies team and even the last Met’s WS team would could not win their own divisions.
Both that Rockies team and the 2000 Mets finished with a bunch more wins than this team is on pace for.
Remind me again, how many wins did they have?
The Rocks won 90 games last year and the 2000 Mets won 94.
This team is on a pace to win about 86-87, but even that seems optimistic.
Rockies really only won 89 games last season. They were 89-73. The Mets are on pace for 87 wins and won 88 last season. That will put them in the hunt again this season. Not what I want but I don’t think a firesale is needed either.
And why does 87 wins seem optimistic? That is what they are on pace for and accounts for all the problems we have had.
As most of you know, I am indifferent on Willie. He is an average manager. However, at this point because of our team’s seemed loss of confidence when that happens the manager must go.
I would get someone completely different from Willie like Carter.
My prefrence would be Carter, Lee, or Rudy (Omar’s guy from Texas)
So this may be a long shot, and I’m sure its not the first time hearing it, but how about replacing Willie with Keith Hernandez. It seems like something to laugh about, but, with as disgusted with this team as he is right now, and the history to support his preachings, this team may just respond well to Hernandez.
Its very unlikely and I’m 99.9% sure it would never happen, but being named the franchises first captain, although over 20 years ago, theres got to be a lot of respect for the guy in the clubhouse.
Jumping from the press box to the dugout might be a bit too much of a transition for a 54 year old but that would be a great proposition.
More reasonably, I’d like to see Lee Mazzilli in our dugout!
Keith has no reason to manage. He likes the simple life and enjoys what he is doing. Ron Darling would have more desire to be a manager.
The guy to get from that team is Carter.
I just see Darling as being a passive type of person, he doesn’t strike me as the type of person to get under the players skin. But I only know him as a broadcaster, so you might be onto something…
No, I am not saying as a manager for this team. I think he may become a pitching coach or something but no he would not be a manager for us.
Oh, ok, I get it. I was going to say, besides Willie not being the right fit, what’s going on with Rick Peterson, and our bullpen? I mean, that was our biggest flaw last year and the year before, and now we are supposed to have one of the better pitching staffs in the NL. After acquiring Santana and “the return” of Pedro, I thought we would be unstoppable.
Maybe we need to spice things up a bit with our pitchers too, although the arent the reason for Reyes, Castillo, Beltran and Delgado sucking it up right now.
Is it time to give up on Pedro yet?
For this season I would not change Peterson nor would I give up on Pedro. Next year they are both fair game. I would not resign Pedro or Ollie. I would get more reliable pitchers in their place. Maybe Garland and Lowe or along those lines.
if you don’t have DESIRE, how the hell are you supposed to have FOCUS?
Mazzilli is not a winner either and I don’t know if these guys would respect him either…
I think that if a move were made mid-season, they would name Jerry Manuel interim manager, which is still a horrific option…
I think that Ken Oberkfell should be given his due…
Mazzilli was on the ‘86 mets and he is just as much a winner as willie was being a coach on the world series winning yankee teams. Technically he is more of a winner than willie due to the ‘86 mets….
Willie should have been fired after last season’s collapse. Oliver Perez’s pitching yesterday was not Randolph’s fault and I’m not asking him to knock over water coolers but his attempts to minimize or excuse yesterday’s listless, pathetic performance by the rest of the team is inexcusable. Can you imagine Gil Hodges, Davey Johnson, or Bobby Valentine under similar circumstances?
Billy Wagner is 100% correct but I’m not sure his teammates will appreciate him sharing his thoughts with the press. I do.
Coulda woulda shoulda. He should have been but was not and now needs to be. Thinking about firing Willie before the season began is clear hindsight now and does no more than complaining about the collapse or trading Ryan, Seaver or Kazmir.
Can we please get any semblance of a Willie poll? I know the other one was pulled, but there was supposedly a new one coming. Its May 1. You can make it a monthly poll.
Hopefully, it will be short-lived and will become the Mazz poll by June 1.
All I can say is….Thank you Mike Lupica.
When he chimes in, you know there is an issue. Which is long overdue. And the even better thing is, people in this city listen to Mike Lupica probably more than any other sports writer.
Would it kill the team to appoint a captain, or even have a giants-ish players council? I agree with the observation that there seems to be a divide b/w the manager and the team. But there is also NO leadership coming from the players. If you have to force that to happen, do it. Can’t hurt.
While I can’t disagree with anything Wagner said last night, I just get the sense that he’s the kind of guy who runs to the media…rather than to his teammate. OP needs a (pitcher) teammate to be his therapist, or to slap him in the face, or whatever…obviously we don’t know if this is happening behind the scenes. I hope it is.
…”on one rowdy flight back to New York, United Airlines billed the team an additional $7,500 for damage resulting from food fights and other unruly antics and said the team couldn’t fly the airline again. Cashen was upset, but the manager, Davey Johnson, laughed as he tore up the bill in front of the team.”
Do you think Willie would stand up for his team like this? This is why those guys played for Johnson in ‘86….he was one of them.
How great would be to have someone like Eric Byrnes on this team? I know he’s only batting 267 right now and we already have a CF, but still, we need that kind of fire on this team.
I remember back back when he was on the A’s and was playing the Red Sox in the 2003 playoffs, when he shoved Varitek and didn’t touch the plate, and I remember thinking, “who is this fool?” But man, he brings the energy.
Any nominations for other guys around the league who bring this component to their team?
Maybe Pedro can manage.
i keep hearing backman, carter, oberkfell, and mazzilli.
why would the mets bring in another manager who has zero major league success?
tom kelly is a great championship manager. buck showalter is a manager who has had significant success and who was part of the built of the foundation of the yankees and d-backs.
not that i think willie should be fired, but it’s becoming apparent that the anger in the fan base may lead to that.
You know Zen that I have defended Willie in the past as not the entire reason. However, even you know at this point something has to change.
As for the reasons, I think bringing in someone with a little Met pride would be benenifical. Bringing in someone like Kelley to me would stink of Art Howe. Like I said Carter or Rudy for me.
i don’t think manager is that important in baseball save 4 or 5 guys. if he’s fired that’s fine, but let’s not pretend he’s the reason or that it wil change the team’s character.
kelly is superior to howe.
met pride, lol :)
Willie Randolph…a nice man, likeable guy. But a dead fish as a leader and medicore to poor as a baseball strategist.
The karma needs to change on this team and we need to say goodbye to Randolph and bring in someone not currently on the coaching staff…soembody with some zip and intensity. I wish I could offer the perfect guy but I don’t know who it may be.
I’m now convinced that it’s time for Willie to go. Too much malaise on this team, too much complacency and underachieving. We need a shakeup.
that’s fine. i think i offered to very good managers.
I get it Zen and you know as well as I that I went to the mat for Willie many of times on this site.
But how can anyone look at this team and say it doesn’t need something shaken up? They’ve been wildly inconsistent for over a year now. Maybe the solution is as simple as releasing Delgado, or getting some guys healthy but we made these kinds of smaller adjustments last year in the second half and the team still collapsed.
and i get the want for change.
i’d be perfectly happy with showalter or kelly. i don’t want an unproven manager.
I think the key is to find the opposite of Willie. Someone who the guys trust strategically, and let their own energy motivate them. Rather than a motivator, (who actually stifles their youthful exuberance), who the guys don’t trust strategically.
I am for Tom Kelly, but last I heard he is “done” with baseball. I believe he lives in NJ as well
I forgot about Buck…sign him today!!!!
mazz got a raw deal on baltimore… that owner is a nut job
The bottom line here is Wagner’s words no effort or desire speaks volumes about Willie and we have seen a player say this many times through the years and it usually has one meaning and that is they have tuned out there manager. It is time for change…
Too many veterans = too little fire. Look at the D-backs. They’re a young team that’s playing with energy and their record shows it.
Willie keeps talking about his career of being a winner. Well, in his managerial career, he hasn’t won squat. He’s living in the past and relying on a track record that has little to do with succeeding in his current job. Should he be fired? No, not yet. I’d put Minaya on a bigger hook because he built this team and they are just not that great.
yea this weekend will def be an eye opener for the mets to see what a team with fire looks like. Hopefully omar will be watching too.
I agree with you gjhaze to an extent. I believe if the Mets are going to fire someone this season, it has to be Willie. Say the Mets are swept by the D’Backs, that would leave them with e 14-15 record going into the second week of May. To me, if you are going to make a move, this would be the perfect time to do it. The team would be down, however, it is still early enough to right the ship. I just don’t want this team to make this move too late… let’s say…the later part of July. Teams, whether they are under performing, or just bad in general, tend to respond quickly to a new voice. I think this would truly benefit these guys. I can only imagine Willie in the clubhouse speaking to his players, “you’re still my guys, it’s a marathon not a sprint, I’ve been here before, I’m a winner, we’ll be ok.” Could you imagine listening to that everyday?!
The problem with Willie is he still believes this is still the late 70’s, or late 90’s. He feels as though he is invincible because he happened to be on great Yankee teams. The act is getting old.
If the team fails to make the playoffs, there is no doubt in my mind that Omar will be fired. Unfortunately, if this happens to be the case the Mets must go with a young general manager who preaches the value of building a dominate farm system. Omar has failed to do this in his tenure. Teams such as the Diamondbacks, A’s, Red Sox, and Dodgers (before Ned Colletti), all have farm systems that are worth emulating. People such as Logan White, Paul DePodesta, and David Forst must be considered.
You guys are all blind. Losing Pedro again and Delgado not hitting is why are team isn’t doing well and is why are team didn’t do well last year.
Everyone forgets that in 06 when we ran away with the division we had Pedro to thank for a stellar first 10-15 games before his collapse and Delgado hitting a HR every few nights.
Take both of those away (and a generally solid inning eater in Glavine) and you become a 500 ball club. Beltran and Wright both had similar seasons last year and when Pedro came back for his late season stint he pitched about as well as he did in the begining of 06.
Maybe Willie needs to go, maybe not. But firing Willie isn’t going to make a player like Delgado magically hit 36 HRs or make Pedro any healthier.
We need an impact power hitter to replace Delgado and a solid mid level starter to off-set the maine and Perez blow ups.
The ‘06 Mets also had zero starting pitching after Pedro and Glavine and relied on a bullpen full of unknowns and cast-offs that turned out to be one of the best in baseball. Cliff Floyd was as injured as Alou in LF, Church is given us then some and more than Nady in RF. Wright and Reyes SHOULD be a year older and better. Ditto with Maine and Perez.
The 2006 Mets were a team of overachievers in a weak NL. The 07-08 Mets are underachieving in a stonger, yet still weak NL. I don’t buy that Delgado and Pedro is the end-all reason for this team struggling.
Ill ask again, how will firing Willy change our lack of power and defense at first base, strengthen are mediocre pitching after Santana and add a reliable arm in the pen?
I don’t understand why some people unceasingly fail to realize that the psychological aspects of the game and the statistical output of players are connected. The stats *may* improve if the players are performing at their peak, and peak performance has physical and psychological components. Will we magically get Pujols? No. Might the players simply play better and with more focus, resulting in better output? Sure.
We’re talking about grown men who have been playing elite baseball most of their lives. Sure, a fiery manager may wake this team up but it isn’t going to magically make an aging (and likely unjuiced) Delgado hit like he did for most of his career. Nor will it make Pedro heal quicker and stay uninjured when he is back. Same goes for Alou.
It’ll likely cause more friction because the team supports Willy and the Vets will laugh at a fiery manager and utterly ignore him…
We need power and defense at 1st base, one more solid starting pitcher and a complete overhaul of the pen.
Actually, when you’re talking about pro sports, you’re talking about grown men who tend to act like anything but grown men, and they require exactly the kind of leadership these guys are lacking right now.
And yes, I have heard that the team supports Willie. I think David Wright mentioned it two years ago. I personally haven’t heard it since then.
It doesn’t really matter what any of us think. The Wilpons are very conservative financially. And they already put the word on the street that the honeymoon is over. If they believe they are seeing something that is bad for business, they’re going to make a move. And when I say “bad for business”, I mean MONEY. The collapse didn’t stop people from coming out and spending their cash. A lifeless team for what could be an ENTIRE season… that’s not gonna cut it with them.
I agree that, in an ideal world, when boys become old enough to drive, old enough to vote, old enough to drink, they’ll become “grown men” who perform with the same focus and pride regardless of their position in a social or professional hierarchy, regardless of their mental state on a given day, etc. Unfortunately, in the real world, even in pro sports, where the athletes’ capacity for focus is nearly superhuman, things don’t work out so nicely.
As AMS points out, pro athletes aren’t the typical case — they’ve been coddled since they began to develop their skills, and generally live and work in a state of suspended adolescence, though certainly some can rise above the locker room testosterone fest, and nearly all had to work extremely hard to get where they are.
What’s more, the demand for focus is greater, which makes the margin for error much smaller. What sends hitters into slumps? Small tweaks of muscle memory, caused by the slightest hint of anxiety, caused by who knows what?
So, can changing the boss change the performance? It can. It may not, but it can.
The problem is that Delgado should be the captain of this team but he is too lazy and he does not have the right character traits to be a leader. So the team is stuck being leaderless! At least change the manager so we can shake things up
Does anyone think the chemistry or attitude of the team will/can change once/if Pedro comes back?
he will have zero effect .. he was there when they collapsed.
For a month. If he was there all or half of the season and he pitched like he did in the 5 starts he had the collapse would have never happened and we would be talking about how we did in the play offs right now.
None of you were in the locker room or at team meetings with vets or Willy so I find it amusing you all seem to know what everyone is like and what affect they have on each other.
Maybe, just maybe…and I know this is hard for the knee-jerk reaction Met fans…but maybe the Mets just played crappy baseball last year compounded by the fact we had no Pedro and lost a pretty damn good bullpen from 06.
Until one of you has worked with Willy or has played professional ball on the NY Mets your opinion on Willy is about as valid as a child who has never watched a baseball game.
“Until one of you has worked with Willy or has played professional ball on the NY Mets your opinion on Willy is about as valid as a child who has never watched a baseball game.”
Um… Unless you’ve worked with him, wouldn’t that apply to your opinion too???
My opinion is indifference to what happens behind close doors because we have no idea what they are like. Firing Willy means little to me one way or the other.
My opinion based off of stats that can be measured is that we have issues much more important that pondering what Willy is like or not like. We have too many aging vets that cant play, too many young players that seem to have leveled out when they should be much better and a starting rotation and bullpen that aren’t all that great.
Sure, some of that is Willy’s fault and a lot is Minaya’s but I can’t fault them because they aren’t on the field. And Minaya did land Santana…
Minaya did not land Santana.
The Wilpons did.
THINK before you accuse other people of being children who have never watched a baseball game.
Really? So Minaya had nothing to do with it?
By that logic Minaya is also not responsible for any of our roster because the WIlpons always sign off on the check and have to approve.
Maybe we should fire the Wilpons then…
You DO realize that Santana was a completely different signing than anyone else during Omar’s tenure, don’t you?
The Twins couldn’t keep him, and there wasn’t another suiter for him when the Mets made the deal.
It came down to that and MONEY.
If the Yankees were willing to trade what they needed to trade to get him, he wouldn’t EVEN BE on the Mets now.
So no, this one belongs to the Wilpons.
No it doesn’t. Minaya could have pushed for the trade early when Boston and NY were in the mix to appease the rabid fans who are still sulking about last year. Zito is one thing but if the Yanks or Sox landed Santana when we had such obvious starting pitching needs and the want to get over last years coolapse and Minaya would have never heard the end of it. when the Twins wanted Reyes as the cornerstone of the trade (which under normal circumstances would be a fair trade, albeit one I wouldnt have supported, but talent for talent it would have been fair) Minaya turned them down and told the WIlpons that he had a feeling it would come back.
It did. To say Minaya wasn’t at least half responsible for the trade is illogical and you twisting what happened to suit your argument, which would never work out of context.
A New Manager is probably going to not be loyal to the Delgado’s of the world and he will end up getting released to go out the door with Willie. Willie is to loyal to a fault because he should not be loyal when these players are not responding or doing the job.
Delgado’s contract is why he is here and worst case scenario he is gone after this season.
I like Willie. However, considering the tools he has, he isn’t doing that great of a job. A manager needs to motivate players. The X’s and O’s never made a great manager or a poor manager. Most of that is textbook.
This team has tons of speed. Castillo can’t bunt a ball straight. Reyes has maybe one bunt single this year. We don’t pull off any suicides, hit and runs, double steals or anything.
With a variety of weapons, if we aren’t hitting homers, we can win with speed. We aren’t doing that either. We aren’t drawing walks and turning them into doubles. There is a lack of fire. Every player that slumps is swinging too hard or jumping too fast on pitches. That is a lack of focus.
This team has quite a few players lacking focus and as a team they lack focus. We have three of our infielders that have won gold gloves, we have two gold glove quality outfielders and a gold glove quality catcher as well as a pitcher of the same quality. We have all the defense in the world, yet our defense is poor. This is a lack of focus.
We need a new manager. No two ways about it.
Maz is not the answer though. He failed in Baltimore for the same reasons Willie is failing. Just because he was a Met doesn’t make him a great manager. We need a motivator. A guy that can make the team focus on doing their jobs well and who can make them want to win. This team is down on itself and Willie can not pick them up. Gary Carter would motivate well but he may be a tad too arrogant. Wally Backman would be a good firebrand for this team. We need a guy that wants to win and shows he wants to win as much as the fans do.
Lastly, we are not going to get any worse than Beltran and Delgado hugging the Mendoza line and Reyes heading that way. This team has tools enough that anyone can come in and keep them at .500 for a full season. We need someone that can make them play like NL champs now.
Mazzilli failed in Baltimore due to being in a bad situation with a bad owner, having no chance to pick his own coaches and miguel tejada giving him a hard time and being outspoken against his manager.
So he failed there. What makes you know he has what it takes to succeed. He never managed in the minors so he has no record of succeeding.
Nobody wants to win more than a guy like Gary Carter.. Just read any of his books. He would be my #1 choice.. I also like the idea of Davey Johnson returning with Gary as his bench coach for a few years. Then when Davey retires Gary takes over.
To this point, I have always been against firing Willie, but it’s getting there. I know I’m in the minority (at least among those on here), but I still want to give him a little longer, but not much. I agree with Matt that Memorial Day makes the most sense, and if this team is still playing .500 baseball by then then I’ll say it’s time (if we go on a sevenish-game losing streak before then, then that would be the time too). Maybe I’m a bit optomistic, but at least going into the season I’ve kinda viewed Willie in the same light as I did good ole Eli before last season – I decided that if Eli couldn’t put it together this year I’d give up on him and call him a bust, and the rest is glorious history. But I think if the Mets can got hot this month then they have a chance at catching fire and picking up on those ‘06 feelings after the Dodgers series and everyone will get a chance to feel vindicated (except Mota). Am I too hopeful???
I think it would be nice to have Lo Duca in a time like this. Get some evil eyes going and a short fused temper. Nobody even seems to be reacting to much of anything these days.
Not true, Beltran and Church have both showed emotion as of late.
Fire Omar/Willie and see if you can convince Dolan to let Isiah out of his contrac so that he can become GM/Coach.
I wonder if the addition of Santana in the off-season had a mentally detrimental effect on the team. Perhaps it reinforced the attitude of “We’ll turn it on when we have to.”
As poorly as they played last year, they were close to making the playoffs. With the addition Santana, the attitude may be “Hey, we’ve got the best pitcher in baseball. No way we’re not making the playoffs now.”
Just a thought.
I’ve been pretty neutral on Willie, but given the end of last season and the start of this one, I think he has to go. I’m not saying if he’s a good or bad manager, but the team needs a shake-up. There’s no urgency and no pride in their play. For whatever reasons, this team is vastly underachieving.
I don’t care that “It’s just May” and that they’re 14-12 and near first. Does anyone honestly think that the way this team has played so far this year makes you think they’re a winner or contender? There’s no fire or passion in this team. They are not fun to watch, and it doesn’t look like they’re having much fun out there either.
I think the key is to find the opposite of Willie. Someone who the guys trust strategically, and let their own energy motivate them. Rather than a motivator, (who actually stifles their youthful exuberance), who the guys don’t trust strategically.
I agree but at the same time who on the team has the energy to motivate this squad. Theres no leader on this team to keep them motivated. Some teams have the benifit of that leadership but this team does not. I think when this is the case, the manager has to step in and motivate the team.
BENCH CLEARING BRAWL!!!!!!!!
Bob Brenly
Like Parcells said: You are what your record says you are. The Mets are barely better than a .500 team. It is no matter that the record stands up in the, as of now, weak NL East.
I do not know what the solution is. But I know my summer is not going to be as enjoyable as I hoped it would be. I mean, forgetting some of the inefficiencies in the lineup or in the field, consider the lack of pitching success. Has anyone but Santana reached the 7th inning? Does anyone have any confidence Perez will return to last year’s form?
Whether firing Willie is the answer (and he may very well be in trouble), I am getting tired of hearing him speak. It’s maddening.
I’m sorry to say this: But if there is no everyday Latino leadership on this team (talking to Beltran and Delgado) — if there is no anger or someone to light a fire under someone’s ass — then they are in trouble. Wright can smile and be the franchise but he can’t do that.
Willie trusts his guys…but do his guys trust him?
I just don’t see Willie lasting to the end of the season. He is too stubborn, too set in his ways, to change a la Tom Coughlin in an attempt to regain control of the team and save his job.
Someone earlier threw out the idea of firing Willie in mid May, particularly if the team has a bad road trip in AZ and LA. I like this idea b/c it would be quick and somewhat unexpected, as the conventional wisdom seems to be “no changes until Memorial Day.” I think the worst thing Omar and the Wilpons could do is create some long, drawn out drama in the media in late May/early June about Willie losing his job and then finally fire him after weeks of speculation. That is a distraction this team just doesn’t need right now. If you’re going to do it, do it soon and get it over with fast.
Too bad Manny Acta is not an option as a replacement….. although I wonder if the Mets threw enough $$ at the Nats whether the Lerners would let him go….. They seem like the kind of owners who would put financial gain above the good of their team if presented with the right offer.
Manny Acta is worse than Willie. Did you see our series with them? He did a horrible job.
Look at this way. For 2 years now all the media did was criticize Coughlin (and some players too) about his coaching style and military style leadership. Halfway through the season people were calling for his head.
Turned out pretty good for him and Eli….and coaches in Football have substantially more control over a team than a bseball manager ever will.
We all know Willie is on a short leash. I heard the Wilpon’s just purchased a shiny new guillotine. That being said, yes, I agree a lot of this is on Willie because he is the manager.
But…
When you get paid millions of dollars to play a game, not for nothing, you should be self-motivated. You should ooze effort and desire. Maybe if you didn’t make millions of dollars and were barely paying the bills, you would be kicking everyone’s a** because your livelihood and survival depended on it. I’m not saying they don’t deserve to be paid well, but you wonder how in the world these guys aren’t motivated to annihilate everything in their path with what is given to them. They can say they are motivated and have desire all they want, the proof is in the numbers the past 2 years.
As a fan, its disappointing and the manager in this case doesn’t help.
By the way, lets bring back Bobby V. I know he is the second coming of Jesus in Japan, but I loved the guy. He executed well, was very aggressive and there was no lack of passion there. His team’s played well (whether they liked him or not). I don’t want someone to be my buddy as a boss, I want them to be a leader.
Face reality…the team is filled with players that don’t have what it takes to give the max effort, full focus, full intensity output game in and game out.
Maybe Willie needs to shave his moustache and then put on a false one and hide in the dugout. Oh yeah he never gets thrown out of a game.
This millionaire self motivation is BS. They are human beings and they need a leader to guide them. Money doen’t suddenly make you smart or motivated. It just makes your cars better.
I bet that Willie doesn’t get fired during the season.
I bet that if Willie goes, it will be in the offseason and Omar will be fired too.
I will bet any of you this.
The Wilpons are not stupid. If there is a problem, they know it’s primarily because of Omar.
I would agree with you, except for one detail that you missed. From all reports, the Wilpons like and trust Omar, but don’t like Willie too much.
You obviously are not reading all the reports, NY Cuban.
From reports dating back to last September, it’s clear the Wilpons are disenchanted with Omar and hold him just as responsible, if not more, for whatever ails the team.
Take your blinders off, Cuban.
I just absolutly loved the idea of bringing back Davey after the olympics and having Carter as the bench coach for a couple of years and then he takes over.
This was the most logical thing I have read today. Willie is gone. It can’t happen soon enough.
Did anyone hear Willie’s interview on M&MD yesterday after the game? Willie and those idiots were saying just put this one behind you and move on….Willie also said the players are not bothered by last year. he is such an a–. Fire willie please, please I will agree to put anyone in the job……
what is the mets record since the June 18, 2007 sports illustrated article about omar the “mix master” came out?
Who was that old guy who lead the Marlins to the WS title in “03? Jack McKean? Guys would respect him but he may be too old to manage now. And there’s Whitey Herzog – another guy too old now – but a manager you’d have to respect.
And then there’s me… I’m ready to go, sitting up here in my Oregon home. I’m getting a little tired of hunting….
I’m gonna recommend you get the gig.
McKeon is gonna be 78. He really lost control of the Florida team and probably should have been out of there a little sooner than he was.
Thanks AlreadyMissShea. I need to un-leash my fire!! I’ll kick some life into this team. And I’ll probably be involved in one controversy or another as manager of this team – but at least it’ll take some of the heat off the players. I’ll take the heat.
You got the job, man.
Get out to AZ now and beat the hell out of the D-Backs. And then I wanna read in the papers that you took three of the hottest girls in the ballpark (there are many to choose from) and partied with them in the pool after the game.
ourmetsmoments.blogspot.com/2008/05/fire-willie.html
Blowing a 7 game lead in the east with 17 to place is baseball, 2004 ALCS Yankees winning the series 3-0 over Boston and look what happened Boston Red Sox 2004 World Series Champions. The Phillies ended up being swept it’s not like they won the World Series. The good part about the blow is that David Wright, Jose Reyes, Mike Pelfrey, Joe Smith, and all the other future dynasty players experienced the worst that could happen. The rest of the players should be coming out guns firing for the 2008 season in which they are coming around.
Carlos Beltran is definately one of the hottest hitters on the planet right now with 12 doubles,28 runs scored, and 2 home runs in 2 games. He is just an amazing player offensively and of course defensively. Beltran before this weekend was slow hitting the longball, but his all around hitting worked up for it. The bullpen is much more comfortable now since they’ve held some important games, but we just have to wait and see if they can hold it with no outs bottom of the ninth at the chaotic Citizens Bank Park.
The Mets now 3 games out of first have a chance this week to really get up to the top as they face off the last place nationals. The mets cant afford anymore injuries espcially pitching wise, because we already have 3 guys out