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Joe Janish’s earlier point on MetsBlog about Nelson Figueroa is hard to deny.
Figgy has been the team’s third-best starter this year, even if he’s only started four games.
But today in the Daily News, Adam Ruben cites a team insider who suggested the Mets could move Figueroa to Triple-A and move Jorge Sosa into the rotation to make room for Matt Wise.
I don’t think that will happen, which is good, because it’d be absurd. I think even sending Joe Smith to New Orleans to make room for Wise would be silly.
I wrote more about this and other concerns facing the Mets in an SNY.tv column today, but essentially I think if the Mets so desperately want Wise back in the bullpen, Sosa should be the guy to go.
I know the arguments for Sosa – he’s leading the team in wins, he’s got a $2 million contract with no options and he’s the closest thing the Mets have to a long reliever – but he’s yet to pitch effectively.
If this team is really committed to winning in 2008, it should put together the best staff it can with the pieces it has – and it’s hard to argue that they should keep Sosa over Smith or Figueroa.
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I cannot understand the infatuation with Sosa.
He is just not that great..
and neither is joe smith.. the only hope with smith is that he gets better.. as of right now hes more or less chad bradford… he gets more billing cause he was a high draft choice and had a short minor league career, but he’s still a limited reliever
I would say he’s less Chad Bradford rather than more. When Bradford came in to relieve, I felt pretty comfortable that he would get the job done. Seeing Joe Smith coming into the game doesn’t fill me with that same sense of confidence – at least not yet.
It fills me with alot more confidence then when I see that Big Goofy Aaron Heilman with the high riser hat that looks like its never been worn before running in from the bullpen.
when that happens its pretty much a given they will score at least 1 run, the challenge is holding them to 1
Sosa leading the team in wins highlights why that stat is mostly irrelevant for relievers.
it’s irrelevant period.
I was trying not to completely assault the old school sensitivities.
Old school sensitivities be damned.
I tell you the problem with Sosa — he’s a converted catcher who still doesn’t know how to pitch. It seems like those kind of guys never work out in the long run. To me, you’re more successful if you’ve been pitching your entire baseball career.
Santana came up as an outfielder.
Did you just compare Santana to Sosa? LOL
No way, Sosa has a much better record than Santana at 1/10th the price .
* sarcasm of course.
haha … I caught the sarcasm actually.
No, he came up with an example inconsistent with the proposition that the previous poster advanced. It’s called a meaningful response.
To provide my own weak attempt an a meaningful response, in my view, if designating Sosa means losing him, it’s just a bit too early for that. There’s always the possibility he turns it around. I’d drop Smith down and see what happens. If Sosa can’t pitch well for the next few weeks, dump him.
Thanks for the clarification … my “LOL” should have tipped you off as a light hearted response.
Maybe we should use “LOLA” and “LOLW” to distinguish laughing at from laughing with.
On second thought, pass.
LOLA
GFY
Oh, now that wasn’t called for, was it? hahaha
surely that was a friendly “Good For You,” right?
LOLW. Ha…
Mr. Gee … I’ll go with that interpretation, definitely! :)
It was “Go Figueroa, Yes!”
Well done!
he came up as an outfeider too. sosa….a catcher? exhemm…..no ur def. mistaken
wise should be held on the DL until we have room for him.
if aaron struggles one more time, demote him. and stretch him out to be a starter.
They can’t keep Wise in rehab forever. At some point they have to activate him, and that is probably soon.
I agree with sending Heilman down. Let him start to get more innings to work on all his pitches. If the starting works out, great. If not, he can come back up to his old relief job.
Also might be less embarrasing to him (more palatable?) if it was portrayed as sending him down to work on starting!
Besides, if it works out, it can solve a huge hole next year when the rotation is Santana, Maine and Pelfrey!
Heilman is NOT a starter. Every friggin’ day people are throwing this stuff out there! If the Mets FO has not done it yet, IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!
guess what! he’s not a good reliever either.
Then trade him.
for what??? a meatball sandwich?
he has no trade value now. but if he gets stretched out as a starter, maybe he would!
He can’t get through an inning w/o giving up a run so what makes you think he can do good as a starter.
Sosa had a nice start, then came down to earth, and has been there ever since. And I doubt he’s getting up. Putting him in the rotation and sending Figgy down is idiotic.
Right now, it might be best to send SMith down if they insist on keeping Sosa. It will probably be only temporary until a trade or injury comes along.
Now, the trade option is intriquing. Maybe the Sosa to the rotation idea was something to pump his value? One can only hope.
So, IMO, either Smith goes down or someone (Sosa logically) gets traded to get Wise back up.
Granted, but I feel like the innings that Sosa can give us totally outweigh any value that we can get from replacing him with Wise. Our big issue is that our bullpen is being overworked, so why would we get rid of someone that can go 2-3 innings on a given night? Matt Wise just doesn’t fit on our team. I don’t the know the specifics of his contract, but we should just leave him in the minors…or if we can’t do that then we should trade him or just release him. He’s not worth throwing away innings for, especially when we are going to be depending on Ollie, Pedro, Figgs, Pelf this year. When either one of them goes 6 innings, we consider it a godsend. Throwing away Sosa’s innings is just plain stupid to me.
Also, demoting Smith is even dumber than getting rid of Sosa. Think of the few relief pitchers we have the can handle the heat of NY Mets fan…
Smith is one of the few guys that I feel confident in even if he had a bad showing the night before. I know he can bounce back quickly unlike some other guys *cough* Heilman *cough*
Good point for the most part, except we don’t even know what Wise can do, hes pitched twice and unfortunately one happens to be a walk off homer loss…
give the guy a chance
The reason why I’d prefer not to give Wise a chance is…
1. The only guy you can make an arguement for to be dropped in favor of Wise is Sosa…
2. Sosa has pitched over 100 innings for the last two years as a relief pitcher and a spot starter. Innings, Innings, Innings. With such an injury prone rotation and an inconsistent one at that, it would not make sense to get rid of a guy who can eat up those innings.
3. Im not saying that Sosa is necessarily better than Wise, but he is far more valuable to our team.
4. Wise’s ERA has slowly increased the last 3 years in a row from 3.36 in 2005 to 3.86 in 2006 to 4.19 in 2007 to god knows what this year. (Also don’t discount that he might have been a roidin partner with Derrick Turnbow…)
I would say highly unlikely, I think the only way you could look like Wise after taking steroids would be to stop eating ANYTHING and never work out.
Wow i would punch myself in the face if we had to deal with Sosa as our 5th starter again. That ship has thankfully sailed. DFA Sosa, bring up Wise. When Pedro is healthy Nelson can go to the bullpen, then you can send down Smith. Sending down Smith just to keep Sosa, who is not a good pitcher, is silly
The problem being whos stuck with the long man duties when sosa is DFA?
Well, I guess not Vargas: (Rubin:)
VARGAS SHELLED: Claudio Vargas, signed to a minor-league deal after the Brewers cut him a check for $900,000 at the end of spring training to avoid being obligated for a $3.6 million contract, allowed six runs on nine hits while striking out four and walking one in four innings at Portland on Saturday in his first start for Triple-A New Orleans. He allowed four first-inning runs. Vargas’ opponent was none other than ex-Met Shawn Estes, who limited the Zephyrs to an unearned run in seven innings.
yea i read that the other day…………..not very inspiring….
when Pedro gets back, that will be Figgy. Up until then I would say that a Show/Smith/Heilman tandem should work well enough. Especially Heilman. He wants to start so bad, let him throw 3, 4 innings when we need him.
yea but he has not been worked out that way. Hes been trained as a reliever as of late and who knows what to expect from heilman as a long man…if he even has the stamina for that.
I agree, I just hate to see that we have to make all these accommodations for Sosa at the expense of the guys who are actually pitching well just because they have options. I guess sending Smith down for the time being wouldnt be the worst. But once Pedro comes back I would absolutely DFA Sosa then and keep Figgy as the long man. (assuming Pedro can pitch at least semi regularly.) I wouldnt mind Figgy getting a spot start once in awhile to keep Pedro rested also.
Wow, even if they considered demoting Figgy in favor of starting Sosa, that is troubling.
If they demote Figgy I am going to be so angry. What has this guy done other than far, far exceeded expectations? He’s certainly been better that Pelfrey and Perez to date.
Of course we only see a sliver, but this guy has busted his butt for this and is week in and week out the proudest Met out there–and actually succeeding! There is absolutely no justification to sending him to AAA. I will be fuming.
And for Sosa? Is that a joke?
I agree. He has been one of the best surprises this year. I fear though that he may be the odd man out due to other players “options”. I feel the same for smith as well. I dont know who has options and what they are, but i would really hate to see figz go knowing that sosa is up here…..Hes done a great job for us that would really suck
Can someone who knows please explain options to me…again? I thought I had it down, but if Figgy has them after 6 years MLB experience, then I am completely confused.
I believe it is because they signed him to a minor league contract, which means they can shuttle him up and down. I could be wrong though.
Wikipedia:
Options
If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. If a player is on the 40-man roster and not the active 25 man roster for any part of more than three seasons, he is out of options and may not be assigned to the minors without first clearing waivers. However, if a player has less than 5 years of professional experience, he may be optioned to the minors in a fourth season without being subject to waivers. If a major league player is ineligible for free agency and “has options” remaining, his team may option him to a minor league team without consequence. This is usually what is meant when players are “sent down” to the minors. Likewise, when a player on the 40-man roster is added to the active major league roster, he is “called up” to the majors.
[edit] Designated for assignment
Main article: Designated for assignment
A player who is designated for assignment is immediately removed from the 40-man roster. This gives the team time to decide what to do with the player while freeing up a roster spot for another transaction, if needed. Once a player is designated for assignment, the team has ten days to do one of the following things: the player can be traded, the player can be released, or the player can be put on waivers and, provided he clears, outrighted to the minors. A player who is outrighted to the minors is removed from the 40-man roster but is still paid according to the terms of his guaranteed contract. A player can only be outrighted once in his career without his consent.
Ok so what does that mean for Figgy?
i have no idea lol…I just wanted to post a definition of options and DFA for people(including me) can have a better idea of what it is.
It would be sadly typical of this club to hold onto Sosa…
He’s this year’s Mota…
Thats not even close to the truth.
With Duaner back and Smith effective and Sosa pitching well at times (the 4 wins are not so misleading as two of them were big wins in extra inning games), do we still need Heilman as a reliever. Not so sure I want to get rid of Sosa and his durable arm, for a guy coming off the DL with average career numbers.
Side note, where’s Keith? Vacation or he get in trouble again?
the guy vacations more than President Bush
Vacations indicate time away from working…
the arguement for demoting Smith is that he has options, and also that he got burnt out last year, so what you do is, send Smith down, monitor his innings, and then at a later date when someone else is struggling, you bring Smith back up for the stretch run. That person would most likely be Sosa, but for the mean time, you get the most out of him as you can by having him be the long man and pitching in less pressurized situations. This bullpen, unless the starters get it going, is going to pitch a lot of innings, so we’re going to need more then just the guys we have now. Bring up Wise, burn out Sosa now, and save Smith for the stretch run. That’s just one option. I do’nt see a scenario where they send down Heilman, just can’t see it.
Joe Smith did not burn out at all. Sending him down to the minors was an effort to preserve him for the end of the year and a run in the playoffs. Unfortunately that didn’t work because he clearly fell out of his rhythm and sucked it up when they called him back up in september. They should have left him in there for the year. His stats:
April – 0.00 ERA, 12.1 IP, crazy start
May – 3.18 ERA, 11.1 IP, coming back down to earth
June – 7.36 ERA, 7.1 IP, had a bad month
July – 3.52 ERA, 7.2 IP, out of his slump where he should be
August – randomly gets sent down to the minors after recovering in the month of July and pitching well
September – 6.35 ERA, 5.2 IP, clearly lost his groove from being demoted…
moral of the story…let the kid pitch.
Toss the ERA out. He was coming in with runners on and allowing them to score as well as letting his own runs in. This wouldnt show up on his ERA. He was overused early and the rest of the league caught up and he didnt make adjustments, thats why he was sent down.
Oops. Someone already says this a little further down.
Agree I doubt Heilman is demoted and also agree you can’t just DFA Sosa. I am not a Sosa fan but he can be effective at times and you can’t deny he is as durable as anyone. Also, Sosa is still an option as an emergency starter. We do have a DH with the Braves coming up, don’t we?
The viewpoint last year about Smith was that he burnt out. That was clearly what the Mets brain power thought and it was well publicized.
He clearly burnt out after posting a 3.52 ERA in July before he got demoted.
Its not like he wasnt pitching in the minors anyway…might as well keep him up. Do you not see the flaw in that logic? Sending him to pitch in a different city doesn’t put less stress on his “burnt out” arm…
ERA for relivers does not tell the whole story. You have to look at how many inherited runners scored.
Hmm, I see your point. Even though his ERA was lower in July, his BAA and WHIP was sky high for June and July…kinda lame that he could only last for 20+ innings last year…
The thing is tho, there is no way Sosa should be sent down due to his ability to eat innings and until smith prooves to us again that he can’t last a full season, is there really any reason for us to put Wise on the roster over anyone else?
Sosa has been eating inning… but he gives up too many hits and too many runs. So far this year he’s given up at least one hit every appearance except twice. He’s given up at least three hits in three appearances over the last 10 games. Every time the ball gets put in his hand, you know someone will be on base, and that is not very comforting. Not to mention his ERA is 6.05 so far. It will probably come down this season, but not by much.
I agree with whomever said to send Heilman down to AAA to stretch him out. Then in a month or two, he can:
1) Replace Ollie or Pelfrey in the rotation if either is still struggling as a starter or
2) Replace anyone in the bullpen who is struggling or hurt or
3) Be traded … and his value should be higher since he will have been stretched out and can be used immediately as either a reliever or starter
C”mon, Omar. Think out of the box and free Aaron. That’ll also give you the roster space you need for Wise and eventually Pedro.
wise is the odd man out. i’d rather have figgy, smith and sosa on the roster than wise.
How can you say that Wise is the odd man out. Give the guy a chance, send down Smith and if Wise struggles DFA him and call back smith.
smith is pitching better than you can possibly expect out of wise right now. to send down smith instead of wise weakens the team.
i’d rather see heilman go down and get stretched out, personally.
Heilman won’t be sent down, it will kill his confidence for sure.
I can’t get enough of this guy (NYPost):
Nelson Figueroa was chatting with a reporter at his locker recently when Ron Darling interrupted to congratulate Figueroa on his remarkable rebirth with the MetsNew York Mets .
After nonchalantly thanking Darling, Figueroa broke out into a huge smile as soon as the former Mets pitching star was out of earshot.
“That’s awesome,’’ said Figueroa, a Brooklyn native who grew up following the Mets in the 1980s. “To everybody else, these are just regular guys. To me, it’s like, `Wow!’ I mean, I idolized these guys.”
hes one of us man gotta love the guy.
Ok I have one question for all of you Heilman for starter people. What makes you think he can pitch 5 effective innings when he can’t even pitch one right now? Heilman is staying a reliever. Also I think the long reliever for the Mets is really not that big of deal. Even when there is a blow out Willie still burns through the entire pen. Willie does not use a long reliever. The long reliever for Willie pitches 2 innings…..maybe 3 on a good day. Most of the pen can pitch 2 innings if called upon.
Send him down and see. You have nothing to lose right? Because you say he can’t even pitch 1 effective inning.
So send him down to AAA and let him start. If he’s effective, no problem. You’ve just raised his trade value and given the team another starting option.
If he’s not effective as a starter, no problem. Then just put him back in the bullpen. Or trade him.
What are you and they so afraid of. Think out of the box for once.
between booing Mets in a slump, and pigeonholing people like Heath Bell and Aaron Heilman,
Mets fans and Mets brass leave a LOT to be desired
call me an ‘embarassed’ Mets fan at this point
You are an ‘embarassed’ Mets fan at this point!
I, for one, am calling for Metsblog to censor all posts regarding Heilman as a starter.
This means all the talk about him wanting to be a starter, us fans wanting him to be a starter, his mother wanting him to be a starter. ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, STOP REGURGITATING POSTS FROM 2004.
I’m calling for Matt to ban all posters who are too closed minded to even consider that Heilman might be a good or at least decent starter.
Who are too closed minded to even ponder alternatives for Heilman who is clearly not thriving in his bullpen role.
Sure … lets just go with the status quo — starters who can’t complete 6 innings and starters-turned-relievers who can’t relieve.
Heilman wouldnt be any better than the AAAA pitchers we have at NO already. Sending him down will only hurt his trade value even more. If he goes down there to start and gets shelled you wouldnt be able to trade him for a bucket of balls. If you sent him down to relieve, he might get by an inning at a time, get his confidence up. Bring him back up and if he has 2 or 3 good outings his trade value would be right back up where it was before this year started.
As for Wise, if they DFA someone it might be him since he makes less than Sosa.
How do you know he wouldn’t be better than Pelfrey, Perez, or the AAAA pitchers at NO? You don’t know that.
You won’t hurt his trade value if you sent him down for the sole purpose of stretching him out to possibly be a starter. Because he’ll still have his record as a reliever.
But if you send him down to be in the same role that he already is not happy with in the majors, then he’ll likely be in the worst situation of all. He’ll have no motivation or desire and will look at it as only a demotion and slap in the face. He’ll likely do worse. That will really hurt his trade value then.
I think they should at least give him that chance to start by letting him stretch out at NO.. If it doesn’t work, trade him and someone will take him as a reliever.
You keep saying the same thing, “If it doesnt work, trade him and someone will take him as a reliever.” If he’s not working out now as a reliever, you send him down, and he doesnt work out as a starter, where would his trade value be? He would already have shown he lost it enough as a reliever that the Mets decided to see if he could start. If he didnt work out and they decided to trade him, what team would give anything for a former reliever who’s shown he’s having problems in that role, who’s shown he cant start, and the team he’s on has given up on him? Thats whats called having no value. Teams will still want to give him a chance, same as we gave Maine and Perez a chance when their teams gave up on them. But you notice we got them as throw ins. Why? Because they had very little trade value.
As for his not being happy about being sent down to work out his relief problems, too bad. Nobody’s ever happy about being demoted and if he was doing what he’s suppose to be doing, there’d be no reason to demote him. Also if he cant find the motivation to work hard to get back up to the big leagues, who is going to want him? He’s always said he’ll do whatever it takes to help the team win and if it takes going to to AAA to work out his problems then I would think thats what he’d do. I always respected him for his attitude. One of the few guys that actually play for the name on the front of the jersey, not the one on the back.
he has lost it as a reliever
and doesn’t want the job
it’s time
send Heilman down and convert him into a starter
he’s been useless and overrated as a reliever and with Duaner back, we really don’t need him in the pen
instead, we are short starters and starting depth
it’s what Aaron wants, and as he’s pitched a complete game 1 hitter in the bigs, it’s what he should be doing
call Aaron up in a month and give him a start or two (when Ollie gets a ’strained oblique’)
and if he isn’t that good as a starter, trade him at the deadline
methinks he’s a quality starter in the making
one more thing the Mets brass and the buffoon Marty Noble have gotten wrong
remember Heath Bell – who ‘couldn’t cut it here’
Heilman ‘can’t be a starter’
we need him too much as a reliever? BS
Not that I am in favor of putting Sosa in the rotation, but if that was the decision then I would definitely rather Pelfrey send down to the minors over Figueroa. Right now its not even close…
Could you imagine a rotation that had Perez, Pelfrey, and Sosa….last place, here we come.
Either do something with Heilman: demote to minors, trade him, or just get rid of sosa.
My brother and I have this running joke.
The bro has season tickets, and he and I were at Figgy’s Shea debut (where he pitched what may well be the game of his life) and Santana’s home debut the next day (where he pitched OK, but not great). After the Santana game, I noted that Johan had pitched adequately, but not quite as well as we all expected. It was not his best day. My brother agreed that it was not his best start, but that he was going to be fine. “Yeah,” I said, “he’s pretty good. But he’s no Nelson Figueroa.”
This has become our thing to say about Santana when he gets into occasional trouble. He’s okay, but he’s no Nelson Figueroa.
I don’t know what the answer here is — leave Wise where is he is, send down Smith, send down Sosa, send down Heilman. Send down Perez and make Heilman a starter. Whatever. None of those are really great options (and yes, the last one is a joke, before everyone comes down on me).
But sending Figgy down at this point would be criminal. He’s pitching beautifully — and that may not last forever, but sending a guy down to the minors when he’s doing great and making people smile around here, for cryin’ out loud, is just wrong.
He’s pitching well, and he has heart, you know? It’s good to see on this team, and we need more of it.
If the mets can’t find a taker in a deal for Sosa, Heilman, Figgy, or Show (obviously what they are trying to do — most likely Sosa due to contract and his ability to relieve and start) I don’t think it’s totally out of the question that Pagan goes down and we go with 13 pitchers.
Not that bad of an idea considering how many pitchers Willie uses each game, and the fact he basically runs the same line up out there each day. He only uses his extra players to pinch hit for pitchers, never position players.