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It’s been interesting watching this team over the first month and seeing the fans reaction to this team’s mediocre play. No matter the outcome of the game you’ll see or hear comments looking for Willie Randolph to be fired. But, at what point do we stop blaming the manager for this team’s poor execution and start blaming the players?
I find it funny when I hear or read things such as, “The players are tuning Willie out” or they have “stopped playing for Willie.” So what if they have? Don’t these players have enough pride in themselves to go out and play to the best of their abilities no matter who is managing? If not, then they are the ones to blame, not the manager.
There is been too much criticism about Willie’s demeanor, the way he constructs his lineups and his use of players like Carlos Delgado. Much of that has nothing to do with team’s performance on the field.
Is Willie to blame when the team is batting .167 with runners in scoring position? Is he to blame when Aaron Heilman throws a poorly located change-up or if Delgado goes 0-for-4 with three strikeouts? Of course not, but I get the sense fans of this team are making Randolph the scapegoat for everything this team has done wrong in the past 10 months.
I’m not saying Willie should never take heat for this team’s poor play or continue to be this team’s manager after a certain point if they continue to play in a sub-par manner. And, I’m certainly not being an apologist. I just think we start blaming the manager for everything little thing and neglect to blame player performance.
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Willie is definitely the scapegoat for the fans’ frustrations. The wildly fluctuating polls confirm that too.
Omar needs to take a lot of the responsibility for whatever happens to this team — win or lose. He’s the one who put this team together with the laid back, often injured and absent players. It’s mainly on him. Not Willie
There is been too much criticism about Willie’s demeanor, the way he constructs his lineups and his use of players like Carlos Delgado. Much of that has nothing to do with team’s performance on the field.
This is especially true. Look at Leyland. Many point to him as how a good manager should be/act. His team is playing far worse than the Mets and they were expected to be much better than the Mets. But it’s on Dombrowski, not Leyland. Leyland didn’t skimp on the pitching. He’s not the one who fell into the trap (like Omar did) of getting too many older veterans who are now underperforming.
A manager can do just so much. It’s primarily the GM’s job to put together the right players with the right attitudes.
And thanks, Mike Nichols, for bringing some much needed balance to the debate.
Of course, unlike Randolph, Jim Leyland has a championship ring, multiple playoff appearances and multiple divisional titles under his belt.
er…you do realize Willie has six rings – two as a player and five as a coach?
oops…4 as a coach
C’mon….obviously we’re talking about managers here. Sheesh.
Isiah Thomas has two rings as a player, I guess that means he’s a great head coach, right?
I don’t think Leyland had any success in his first four seasons as a manager.
Joe,
Leyland is a good manager. I’m not saying he isn’t. But:
1) He’s managed for 17 years and has just 1 WS title.
2) Willie has a higher winning percentage as a manager than Leyland does
I’m not saying that Willie is a better manager than Leyland either. Not at all. Just that the role of the manager is overblown. The GM has the biggest influence on the W-L record. And it’s rare when a manager can be the type of catalyst or detriment to a team’s fortunes. the way the Willie bashers think.
Willie has plenty of championship rings as a player and a coach. You can’t discredit that.
If the discussion is his MANAGERIAL skills, of course you can. See my Isiah Thomas example, above.
Yeah, I’m sure the ability to wave runners home from third plays a large part in somebody’s qualifications to manage an entire team.
I won’t discredit what he did as a player. But as a coach…how much credit he deserves for those rings is debatable. If anything, I think he gives himself too much credit, hence the frequent “I come from winning” comments. If you are a real winner, you don’t need to keep reminding everybody.
Joe — Thomas has a .333 winning percentage as a head coach. Willie’s managerial record is .550. Ain’t even close.
Yeah, how much impact did Willie have on those 90’s Yankee championships, sitting on the bench helping Joe Torre pick his nose? Hell, I don’t even think JOE TORRE deserves all that much credit, and he WAS the manager!
F.A.H. – OK, you win. Willie Randolph is a better manager than Isiah Thomas is as a head coach. Let’s throw him a parade.
No parades until there is a WS title. Which will be hard the way Omar has been constructing the team. That’s the real problem.
But the point is that it’s ridiculous to bring Thomas’ name into the discussion. He may be the worst coach of any sport I’ve ever seen.
I was responding to the people who said that the World Series rings that Willie he won as a second baseman had anything to do with his managerial skills.
Bob Brenly has a ring. Does that make him a good manager?
The way a lineup is constructed, i.e. who bats 2nd or 6th has very little to do with how the lineup produces. To kill Willie over batting Church 2nd or 6th is useless. The statistical difference is minimal.
Willie is the Herm Edwards of Baseball. Fire everyone around him get a couple of GURU’s to assist and it still not Willie’s Fault.
Bottom is this team is underachieving going on 3 years now. Is it the players…no the buck stops with the manager and Willie is clueless …
he doesnt know what he is doing and we already have lost 6 games b/c of his (feelings) were 1 game back instead of 5 up…
Willie is not right for this team Go back to the Bronx bring in Buck Showalter!
No, the buck stops with the GM.
He is the one who put together the team — personality and age and injury warts and all.
God enough with all the Willy Randolph apologists… He is a nice guy but he does not fit with this team. He needs to go sooner or later.
How about enough with all the Willy bashers? Especially when it’s clear from the polls that you are in the minority.
You are the very vocal and whiny minority.
Ok, you can keep on accepting mediocrity. That’s the difference btw winners and losers in this world.
No, I don’t accept or like mediocrity. I just don’t like to place the blame for it where it doesn’t belong. Because that doesn’t do anything to fix it.
the polls here have often been timed after mets wins and were missing the week the mets were under .500. they are totally unreliable. that said your manager is sitting on a 58% approval rating which is really unimpressive considering the generally positive tone of this blog.
this team is .500 since last memorial day. whether or not the players are ultimately to blame, they cannot (generally) be replaced. willie must be removed.
Uh, no. Matt has tended to run polls right after losses or bad series losses.
And take note…, the manager’s approval rating is matching the general confidence level that the fans have in this team. They are the one and the same for many fans. (look at the upper left corner of this blog.)
Regardless, if you run fan polls for almost any team that hasn’t won a WS in a few years, right after losses or losing series or when they are simply playing around .500, you’re going to get the same results.
What do you think Leyland’s approval rating would be right now on a Tiger’s blog?
Bottom line: You bashers are in the minority.
Removing Willie would be a symbolic useless move that wouldn’t fix the underlying problems on the team.
i take the timing of the polls comment back. i’m not so sure about that. but since like the day after opening day, the willie approval rating here has floating between 50-60%, so please don’t pretend the “bashers” are a small minority at all.
willie is a poor manager. i don’t know how anyone who watches this team regularly can conclude otherwise.
I did not say you are a small minority. I said you were the minority. You are.
The polls consistently give Willie an approval rating of about 60%. You bashers are around 40%. You are outnumbered.
Willie is an average manager. I don’t know how anyone who watches the team regularly can see that the main issues they have don’t have to do with him.
tyranny of the majority, imo
Remember that everything we’re hearing about Willie was said about Joe Torre, before he became a 4-time WS winner.
He was too laid back, he didn’t think on his feet, he sacrificed spontaneity for consistency, etc etc.
If Willie has the players to win it, he’ll win it.
Hey way to be rational, you mean that it takes talent and getting hot at the right time to win? I thought that you had to have a great manager to win.
joe torre’s first three and change seasons in the bronx: championship, playoff appearance, top 10 team of all time + championship, en route to third championship
willie randolph’s first three and change seasons in queens: fourth place after september collapse, 97 win season followed by playoff loss to clearly to 83 win team, worst collapse ever, now barely treading water
so yeah, exactly the same.
also, torre was managing in the 70s and didn’t win until 1996. you feel like watching 17 years of willie randolph? really?
If it means 4 rings in 5 years…hell yeah…
Torre won 4 WS titles because of
1) Rivera
2) Other homegrown core players who produced such as Jeter, Williams, Posada, and Pettitte
3) The big payroll to fill holes
4) Heavily juiced teams
Those teams woulda won under any manager.
Torre has a below .500 record managing other teams not named the Yankees. And thsoe were all National League teams. He’s not tactical, and he’s not strategic. The man is overrated. He didn’t manage the Yankees…he managed the media and especially Steinbrenner.
But one thing he did do, he let his player play and acted as a shield. any blame that was to absorb…he absorbed it even when it wasn’t his issue. That says alot.
If Willie would only do that….
As to the “majority” in the polls. are you suggesting that because 58% have confidence in willie than it proves your point that the manager is doing a good job? let me ask a question, and one that should be posed to the wilpons. What if the 42% “minority” decided to no longer purchase tickets to met games? what if Shea were only 58% full for home games. do you think that would make a difference? i think that would lend a heck of a lot more support to the “minorities” argument than the rest of yours. no?
and if, over the last 142 games, the mets had won 58%, they would be 22 games over .500. If they had won 58% of their games in September 2007 they would have won the division and made the playoffs.
they’d be 4 games over .500 this year if they won 58% of their games.
Let’s face it, 58% is a pathetic number unless you are talking about a batting average. The fact that only a little more than 1/2 of met fans on this blog believe in willie is alarming. again, how would the wilpons react if they only sold 58% of their season tickets, or 58% of the seats at Citi field. would that be good enough for them? my guess would be no. so why are we expected to be satisfied with 58% effort from this team?
Anyone who tried to criticize Torre is grasping for straws. You don’t win that many rings by accident. There are plenty of teams with great talent that win one title and then fade away. It takes a good to great manager to pilot a team. Look at the job Torre is doing in LA. That was a team tearing itself apart at the seams. Now he has Jeff Kent, JEFF KENT!, singing his praises.
Buck Showalter had a lot of the same benefits Torre had and we won nothing. It says a lot when a franchise that changes managers as often as the Yanks do keeps a guy around for so long.
My criticisms of Willie are distinct from the general criticisms of Torre, and I have been consistent from the moment they signed him. IMO, the team has underachieved with Willie at the helm.
Yeah, he’s so obviously a scapegoat its hilarious. I don’t always agree with his moves, but I think this year he’s bascially yet to make any major head scratchers. The only glaring coaching mishap I can recall was Alomar not sending Beltran during the recent LA game – not willie’s fault of course. Willie managed competently during the playoffs in 06. Until he screws up in the playoffs (if and when we get back there) I’m not gonna blame him for the downfall. I think there could have been better fits for this group of guys (i think its fair to say the team is fairly even keel, and as such might thrive under someone with more urgency). Overall though, I think he is a scapegoat and to fire him would not change anything.
Funny. On the radio they were insistent that Beltran stopped himself at third. They said Alomar was waving him home. Not that it matters because he scored anyway.
When Beltran stopped himself and then scored, it was later in the game after it had been put out of reach. I was referring to the second inning when Alomar half-heartedly waved him home. It was like he said, “go… i think… uhhh… wait, im not sure… go? sort of?” It was AWFUL coaching and showed Alomar was just not into the game.
by the way, only the mets would hire the father of the biggest bum this side of 2000 to ever wear a met uniform to be a coach.
That’s not fair. Sandy Alomar Jr. was a solid player in his prime, as was Roberto Alomar. It’s not their father’s fault that Mets managment got those players at the tail end of their career.
“I find it funny when I hear or read things such as, “The players are tuning Willie out” or they have “stopped playing for Willie.” So what if they have? Don’t these players have enough pride in themselves to go out and play to the best of their abilities no matter who is managing? If not, then then they are the ones to blame, not the manager.”
It’s a deplorable situation when a team starts to tune out a manager, but – and it’s a cliche, but it’s true – you can’t fire the whole team, so the manager has to take the hit.
“There is been too much criticism about Willie’s demeanor, the way he constructs his lineups and his use of players like Carlos Delgado. Much of that has nothing to do with team’s performance on the field.”
Totally disagree. His lackadasical demeanor is translating into lackadasical play on the field. Are you not seeing players constantly failing to run hard, lollygagging defensively, taking things for granted? Because I sure am, and I’ve been seeing it for the past year or so. The buck stops on that with the coaching staff.
“Is Willie to blame when the team is batting .167 with runners in scoring position? Is he to blame when Aaron Heilman throws a poorly located change-up or if Delgado goes 0-for-4 with three strikeouts?”
Of course not, but what exactly is he doing to help the situation? His job to do three things: (1) put the best lineup possible out there every day, (2) manage the bullpen effectively, and (3) keep the team motivated. I don’t think does any of the three well, with the possible exception of #1, now that he’s finally come to his senses and left Church alone in the #2 spot.
“His lackadasical demeanor is translating into lackadasical play on the field. Are you not seeing players constantly failing to run hard, lollygagging defensively, taking things for granted? Because I sure am, and I’ve been seeing it for the past year or so. The buck stops on that with the coaching staff.”
100% agree.
Manager sets the tone, and the tone has been pathetic since last May.
I should also qualify my earlier post by saying that I think Omar Minaya deserves a heaping share of the blame for our mediocrity this year – I love Johan, Church, and Pagan, but relying on Pedro and El Duque this year was suicidal, and the 4-year deal to Castillo was absolutely unthinkably stupid.
You love Johan, Church, and Pagan, but Omar deserves a heaping share of the blame?
The guy can only do so much given the available talent and the limits of an acceptable payroll. Ask yourself who else you would have had him get for the rotation.
kyle lohse? livan hernandez?
also, the castillo signing was unbelievably dumb.
That would have helped the youth movement huh.
lohse is young enough and could have been kept around for next year as insurance for when boras tries to extort an insane contract for ollie.
We don’t have to resign Ollie anyway. There are a ton of pitchers on the market that would have been an improvement over Loshe. Besides you can’t replace your #3 pitcher with Loshe anyway. I was for signing Livan to a 1 year contract and pushing Elduque to the pen but it’s not like Figgy has done badly and Pelfrey would have been pitching anyway.
Lohse is winning with smoke and mirrors this season. His strikeout rate blows. His ERA is going to skyrocket.
Livan Hernandez? Really? I think I throw harder than that guy. You’re going to complain about Pedro and El Duque then bring up Livan?
i don’t like them either but options are options. of course, this organization can’t take fliers on anyone without committing to them for way too long anyway, so maybe we’re best off without them.
anyway, why are we talking about this here again? we’re like six comments into irrelevancy here.
Very well put, Toast. Because managers are so commonly falsely blamed does not mean that they are never to blame. In other words, fans often cry wolf, but this time, there’s a wolf. In this case, Randolph presided over the worst collapse in modern baseball history, and has a team lollygagging, dispirited, and skimping on fundamentals. It’s a new year, but they’re still playing the precise way they’ve been playing since June of 2007. Complacent .500 baseball. It’s true that the mix of players and the players themselves may be to blame, but, as Toasty states, firing the manager is a lot easier than dismantling the team and rebuilding. It’s worth a shot. This is not charity. Willie’s a nice guy, but he’s not “entitled” to his job. If he didn’t get a fair shake, he’ll surface elsewhere with a team more suited to his skills. My guess is that teams will be appropriately wary of a manager who oversaw a playoff team become also-rans with little change in personnel.
Very well put.
100% Agree! I think alot of fans are drinking the Willie koolaid.
TMU hit the nail on the head. Some of the commenters (and Metsblog posters like Mike Nichols) should read and re-read that comment over and over again until it sinks in.
Was Church in the 2 spot yesterday? How did he do? How did Castillo do? How did we do?
And no I am not seeing a team play with no heart or drive. I see a team that lacks confiedence and tries too hard. Constantly having that feeling in the back of their mind that something bad will happen. Still it’s a manager’s job to try to get rid of that too I guess.
I do believe alot of the fans put willie as the scapegoat for the failures of the team but hes the manager it comes with the territory. Its the same old story. The reality is theres not a whole lot the manager can do when it comes down to excecution and that is the main problem with this team. The managers job is to put his players in the best possible position to get the most out of them. The things i have notice and myself blamed willie for is certian stubborn lineups he uses and bullpen usage. I do not blame willie for as you said delgado’s 0fers or heilmans changeup down the middle. Those do fall on the players and i do see fan get on the players on this blog for their excecution. I dont necessarily believe they have “stopped” playing for their manager but it does seem like there is something of a mental block on the team. Is it the heartbreaking fashion that they have lost the last 3 seasons or is it the managing style conflicts with the team i dont know. All i know is willie does gets his just blame for some of the teams failures. I dont believe he deserves all of it.
Well said. Preach on.
its omars fault. he is the one who signs 40 year old players to multi year contracts
Like?
Exactly we always here this but he has signed 2 actual 40 year old players to multiyear contracts. Franco for nothing and Alou. Alou’s was a great contract. 1 year with an option at almost nothing. Elduque does not count but even if he did it was a 2 year contract for nothing. Delgado does not count because he did not sign him and he is not 40. Pedro does not count because he is not 40.
Maybe it’s because some of the players he signs play like they’re 40 (Castillo, Delgado).
Delgado did not act like he was 40 in 2005 or 2006. Castillo may look old but he still gets the job done based on last year’s stats and what I expect this years to end up being.
Look, I posted the “like?” comment because it was a crazy thing to assert. But just as crazy was that Castillo contract. But Omar has not passed out multi-year contracts to 40 year old consistently, and when he has passed them out, they were, like you said, either cheap, or with an option year.
Willie Randolph is the reason the country is in a recession, the reason we are at war, the reason there are starving children….the reason the METS SUCK
I’m not a Willie fan in general, but I agree that Omar shoulders the blame for many of the team’s difficulties. It is Omar who has relied on a tired, old group of veterans, giving us the second-oldest lineup in baseball. We have NO real backup 1B, 2/5 of the rotation was built with unreliable players, and he offensively relied on Alou to get the big hits.
All of those moves are absolutely inexcusable to me. Funny that the D-Backs, while they’ve cooled a bit, have the best record in baseball and either the youngest or second-youngest lineup. People have argued that hiring these veterans is a “win now” attitude, but they’re wrong. It’s a “win in 2002″ attitude team, save for Wright/Reyes.
Omar should shoulder much more of the blame. How long until ownership realizes this guy always hires the same types of has-been superstars in search of reclaiming glory?
You have to becareful of the Arizona model. It will be hard for them to be consistantly good because of contracts. Don’t forget the Marlins have won WS’s.
As for Omar’s decisions I think he relied on old players to fill temporary positions with the idea that their backups would step up. Last year with Alou, he knew he would need backups for 60+ games. Thus we still had Gomez, Chavez and Milledge. Pitching Pedro and Elduque were old but we had Pelfrey and others that should have stepped up. Same thing this season. If Pedro or Elduque went down then Pelfrey should step up. Obviously as expected by us but not by most, Alou, Elduque and Pedro all got injured at the same time. I can’t blame him for that.
this guy always hires the same types of has-been superstars in search of reclaiming glory?
Like Ryan Church, John Maine, Carlos Beltran and Johan Santana.
Oliver Perez, Endy Chavez, Sanchez and the list goes on. Yet they name Pedro (coming of a good season), Delgado( coming off one of his best seasons), Alou (never meant to rely on to carry the team), Elduque (signed with potential to go to the pen if Pelfrey stepped up) and a bunch of BENCH players.
Castillo?
He is still young age wise, he has bad knees but it has not stopped him from doing his job.
Are we talking about the same Luis Castillo? The one currently playing second base for the New York Mets?
Yes, look at his career averages and his numbers last season. He is still getting it done and will do the same this season over the course of the year he will hit between .280-.300 and have an OBP near .360. That may not be good enough for you but that’s exactly what many managers want from their #2 guy.
Stop being so negative all the time, how can you say he won’t come close to his career averages?
because he is old, he has bad knees, and frankly, his career averages are not that great.
if willie is one of those managers who wants a punch and judy hitter second simply because that’s the way it was done in 1982 then that is yet another knock on him.
How is .300 with a .360 OBP and good defense not that good? Yes they are not allstar numbers but good enough. As for his age, did you check that? And as for his bad knees, he had them last season and still hit for his career averages. No reason to think that after having surgery to fix them that he wont be able to do the same thing.
I really think that some of you just play fantasy baseball and video games all day. You can’t have offensive stars at every position because of defense and budget.
And by the way you make me feel really old because if Castillo is old so am I. He’s only 32.
Maybe thats why you and I are even-keeled. We sat through miserable season after miserable season time and time again….
…the younger crowd definitely display a instant gratification/internet type mentality.
“We sat through miserable season after miserable season time and time again….”
You say that like it’s a good thing. I am 34, I’ve sat through my fair share of awful stretches (1992-1998, 2002-2005), and nothing’s worse than having to cheer for a directionless franchise. Forgive us for not wanting that to happen, and being vocal about it.
Exactly, what Volume11 seems to miss is that when we suffered through miserable seasons with miserable teams, it was easy to say “ok, these guys are no good…let’s enjoy the rebuilding and there’s always next year, etc”.
When we have the rare joy of having a talented team, patience becomes short as us long-time fans know about all the years in the wilderness and want a talented bunch to get things done. Patience evaporates when such a talented group has The Collapse.
For the record, I predate the Internet, heck I predate the VCR, the PC, cordelss phones, etc. and am balding with grey hair.
If you have a team of go getters that are hitting then the managers an all star, but if your team is lacking your managers a bum?
In 06′ the arms performed and the hitters hit and Willie was in contention for manager of the year.
In 07 and a drop of 08, the arms and bats have not performed to their potential and now Willies a bum.
These players are grown men. I want fire, I want someone to step up, I’m talking about a player.
Not the manager, I want a PLAYER to buckle down with RISP and deliver for an extended period of time.
I want Ollie to get his head on right, now a MANAGER has to help there. Here you have kid with great talent and little poise, we can look to a manager to help in this case.
Enough Blaming Willie, enough with the scapegoat garbage.
You can name a million in game errors by a manager and none will change my mind about this teams lack of timely hitting with their best HITTERS up at bat, or when a PITCHER needs to buckle down and can’t.
WHERES THE PLAYERS PRIDE.
Willie haters . . .these games are won and lost with the balls we hit and catch, and the pitches we throw . . . PLAYERS.
Funny thing is I said this last year. 2006 was a great season but look how many players had career years. Same thing with the Phillies last season. Sometimes that happens and you do well. Most of the time the average player will hit at his average numbers.
Can’t fire all the players at once. Fire the manager first. Still flailing about? Then can the GM who constructed a team of solid parts that never became a whole. Then, have new GM start anew.
7Train, when is the manager accountable then? Should the manager become a lifetime appointment, like a Supreme Court Justice?
There are some, like myself, who never thought much of Willie as a manager. You just can’t criticize a guy who wins 96 games and goes to the NLCS, because then you’ll look like a tool who complains all the time.
I don’t think he is a good manager. I think he is obscenely negative. And I don’t think he has improved as a manager at all.
When it comes to picthing and hitting I blame the coach’s. If they fail I then blame Willie. Someone has to be held acoountable here. If not them then who? The batboy!
How about the players? How about the man who put the team together?
Irish, try to be a bit objective here.
Look at this team. We have an All Star left side of the IF. We have an AS CF. We have the best frieking pitcher in baseball. We have a future HOF closer who has been pitching great.
I really could go on and on. Our starting lineup is very solid offensively and defensively and our pitching staff should be pitching much better than they are. So the bench is a little thin, are we really going to be this nitpicky?
All I know is, after a huge collapse our GM went out and got Johan Santana and traded away Milledge (who has been a disaster in DC) for a guy who is playing great ball and may be coming into his prime, and a guy who is a significant upgrade behind the dish from LoDuca. So we upgraded THREE key positions.
What has Willie done? I haven’t noticed him try one new thing yet this year. He just keeps taking page after page from the downplay everything handbook.
Well said, squad!
I think Willie has learned a lot too. Look at his use of the Show, enough said.
No, the players. Considering the core guys in the line up get thousands of dollars per at bat and have trained most of their lives to get to this point I ultimately blame them and hold them accountable.
Same with the ptichers….Blame can be spread around to everyone, but at the end of the day its Perez pitching like a schizo, Delgado hitting like a tired old man and the top of our ine up not hitting with RISP or with 2 outs….
And some of that blame goes on Omar way more than Willy…
I hate to be pessimistic, but this team is just not that good. It’s not terrible, but not great. The lineup is solid 1-5, but Delgado, Castillo and Schneider are below average hitters. Santana is great, Maine can be, but Perez is a headcase, and who knows what you can get out of Pedro and El Duque. Although it’s a great story, can anybody see Nelson Figeuora pitching well all season? I cant.
The Mets major problem is they dont draft well. I understand Reyes and Wright are homegrown, but they consistently dont draft well. They have the money to throw around, yet refuse to draft above the slot allowance. With the way teams are locking up players long-term before they even reach their 1st free agent period, having money to sign free agents won’t matter.
With the way teams are signing guys to extentions before arbitration (as the Mets did with Wright and Reyes), by the time these guys real free agency, they are past their primes.
I agree with you here. This is not Willie’s fault. He only manages the team on the field. He’s not responsible for the organization. I think the organization is failing and that’s the GM’s fault. I thought he was going to do the right things when he was hired. I thought he’d find lots of young talent and the Mets would be well stocked with young talent, like a Montreal Expos only with the money to fill in the occasional hole and to hold onto the good young players.
On the same token, Omar turned our joke franchise that no one took seriously into a real contender with some of the best talent baseball has to offer.
For every bad or mediocre signing just think about how spiffy Santana looks in Mets duds…
We have 2 homegrown superstars, a stud on the farm, and turned 4 mediocre prospects into the best pitcher in baseball… I think Omar’s done alright with the system.
It’s hard to win now, stock talent and get younger at the same time.
yes and especially in the big market teams that we are considered. We do not have the luxoury of rebuilding within the organization. With as much revenue as baseball draws the pressure to win in the big markets goes along with it. They have to field a team that wins or it costs jobs and money. Thats the price for playin in ny.
I don’t disagree. When Omar got the job I thought he had a plan that meant being a title contender in a few years. I think what went wrong was that the Mets got good too quickly. I was on board with Omar through mid 2006. I didn’t like how he panicked on the night of the Sanchez taxi cab ride, but I was willing to get over that.
But after the disappointment of 2006 he seemed to panic in the face of the suddenly astronomical expectations. He was suddenly patching a team rather than building a winning organization.
And it’s like he’s been doing emergency patches ever since. Too many older players, too many cast-offs and not enough attention paid to the Mets’ minor league teams and prospects.
The Santana deal was probably a good one, but let’s not lose sight of the fact that it cost a lot more than the few prospects. It also cost the Mets $125 or whatever and that limits the moves the Mets can make going forward.
Well in reality there have not been a lot of other options to fill the spots that are or should be vacant, especially not on the FA market. Who would be that much better than Alou in LF that would not block Fmart longterm. Same thing for 2nd base and 1B who could we have gotten that was young and reliable at the time that we signed the patch? As for the rotation the FA market there has been weak and over priced for years, thus Omar has went out and got guys with potential like Maine, Perez, and even Jason Vargas who was young and lefty (who knew he would never work out). Over all he has done a good job but I think it’s just freaky that every old player we have always breaks down at the exact same time.
I agree to a certain extent. But if you draft well than you can stock talent and develop players while getting good. Look at the Red Sox. They’ve done an unbelievable job at this.
You’re going to have to part ways with prospects, no doubt. But my point is, when Omar traded the 4 guys for Santana, it basically left the system bare. Now I agree with the trade, but 4 players shouldnt make up 90% of your farm system’s talent level.
who said the players we gave away are 90% of the farms talent. If im not mistaken mulvy,humber and delois were not even ML ready. They are again if im not mistaken in Minn minors. We have a bunch of talent on the team but unfortuantly not many are ML ready.
Guys, Minaya has been here FOUR YEARS. Kind of hard to restock the farm when you’re signing free agents year after year, losing picks.
To refresh people’s memories, here is who Minaya is/was responsible for: Maine, Perez, Johan, Pedro (you can’t know the Pedro signing, because he helped turn this franchise around), Church, Beltran, Delgado (ditto my Pedro comments), Schneider, LoDuca (he was good in ‘06, as much as I despise him), Sanchez, Feliciano, Bradford, Endy, Pagan, Castro, Nady, etc…
Dirty-
I say 90% because scout after scout, whether it be baseball america, BP, Keith Law’s list, whomever, list the Mets in the bottom tier of farm systems. Yes they have Fernando Martinez, who is as recognized and touted as mostly any prospect out there, but after that there isnt much any other team is interested in.
Put it this way, from what I read from scouts and minor league analysts, if the Mets were to try to make a major trade right now, they wouldnt have the prospects to do it. Maybe a package around F-Mart, but aside of that, no one is calling for the rest of the guys.
That said, scouts arent always right. There could be 3-4 future all-stars in the minors, who knows. But when I see a team with as much capital and finances as any team in baseball rated in the bottom 5-7 teams in farm system rankings, it makes me believe they are not very good at drafting.
I hope I am wrong. I really do.
THEY. TRADED. FOUR. PROSPECTS.
THEY. RECEIVED. JOHAN. SANTANA.
THIS. IS. WHY. SYSTEM. IS. BAD.
I continue to be absolutely amazed at how infrequently howard johnson’s name comes up in these conversations when you have a group of career near .300 hitters performing 50 points or more below their averages. Yes, I understand it’s ho-jo. And I understand it’s may. But his name should come up more.
I think Hojo is a horrible hitting coach who should be fired. Ownership made that move to pacify its home grown superstar, pure and simple.
And before him we fired the same hitting coach who lead the team to career years in 06….
…again, its the players not playing well…not Willy, not HoJo, not anyone but the players….
And, FYI, HoJo has been credited with helping Church turn things around…
Turn things around? I thought all Church needed was a chance to play everyday and stay healthy. I didn’t think he had problems.
He is hitting much more consistant, even he credits Hojo for his start. However, you have to find one that would reach all of them. Reyes may have been better under Down. Who knows. Maybe once Willie is gone you get Rudy from Texas and then you have 2 hitting coaches.
And he is on pace to hit around 25-30 HRS, so that is turning it around from 17 last year. He himself said he has 100% bought into HoJo’s appraoch and requirements, mainly swinging level…
Same for DWright. Notich it took over a month to hit his first HR last year and under HJ he has done much better in his first month…
Im not defending HoJo but rather attacking the knee jerk reactions and lack of player accountability from most fans on this blog.
I’ve noticed a lot more looking at fastballs called for third strikes under Hojo. Way to many of them by most of the players. Oh, and every hitting coach preaches level swinging. He’s nothing special, and if only one player is responding to his coaching then there’s a problem there.
You can take it a step further and perhaps blame the Wilpons, especially Jeff, a bit for what it going on right now. For years they have been trying to take this franchise out of the Yankees’ shadow and what has been the result? A division title, NLCS appearance, and a big collapse. Not the direction you want to go in.
Keep in mind it’s the Wilpons who hired Minaya. They give him the go-ahead to make some of these deals. Some have been good, some have been bad. And say what you want about Pedro now, but that signing was the right move at the right time. Signing Pedro brought the Mets Beltran and other players want to come here, i.e. Santana. But the organization still needs to put an emphasis on the draft, minor league system and international scouting. Yes, this is a big-market team, but it doesn’t mean the Mets can’t take an Arizona Diamondbacks approach.
The Mets need to build around Wright, Reyes and Fernando Martinez. Most of the core is strong when you look at shortstop, centerfield, and catcher. Schneider does a good job with the pitching staff. Second base is the question mark. You can blame Omar for that one.
I’m not going to blame Willie for what happened in 2007, because that’s beating a dead horse. I’m just saying that the team needs a more drastic on field change outside of firing the hitting coach or the pitching coach, and the only way to accomplish that is fire the manager. Willie was great in 2005, he was given a lot in 2006, but in 2007 this team developed the attitude of we can turn it on or off whenever we want, and a large part of that is because Willie kept preaching the philosphy of one loss doesn’t matter, this is not a sprint, it’s a marathon, and unfortunately, the attitude is still the same in 2008. The team needs a change in its on the field leadership.
“We follow Willie, because Willie is our leader.” – David Wright
Exactly right.
There’s plenty of blame for Willie and the players. It’s not either’s fault — it’s both. I don’t think Willie should be fired (yet), but I don’t like his “I’m a winner, I’ve always been a winner” attitude. I think his team reflects that attitude of just expecting everything to be there in the end.
He hasn’t won anything with the Mets or as a manager and he would be well served to recognize that.
Good post, I agree with everything you’ve said, except for the part where you said you don’t think Willie should be fired (yet).
Its a total team effort, or lack of. From Willie’s poor decision making to players not playing with enough heart or playing hurt when they should not be. We are at 17-15 and 1-1/2 games out of first which could be worse. Lets observe the team for the next few weeks as they cant use the injury excuse as people are now returning. Its a fight and we dont need to act like its the end of the season yet……..
Important things for Willie to keep his job.
1. Become a leader in that clubhouse. Get everyone playing for each other and bring back the pride of this team. Get the MOJO back.
2. One more game where this team lays down and dies is unacceptable. they have the talent and need to play to their potential.
3. stop blaming fans for negativity!!! The negativity is a reflection of your managerial/leadership skills and take some responsibility for last season and this season. You are the skipper/captain and you let this team fall from its graces. Deal with the reality that some of the players are still playing with this Sept 07 attitude and thinking too much or just waiting for failure. Pick them up and inspire them!!!!! Make this team believe again!!!
7 up with 17 to play, enough said
Honestly, the analysis can really end there. Enough said.
it is just absolutely ridiculous that we are even having this discussion. there is no way any manager should have kept his job after last year.
Bingo. I’m no “blame the manager first” fan, and even I can see that Willie should have been let go after the Collapse, no questions asked. Ask yourself — would a consistent winner tolerate that? Would an organization that expects to win and demands top performance tolerate that? No. End of story. Willie out, Omar on notice. That’s what should have happened. Instead, we get a lukewarm endorsement and a .500 team stuck in limbo.
Amen!
I think there are some managers who are good at getting teams to a certain level and others who seem to know how to win championships. Buck Showalter – TWICE NO LESS – was fired and the next year his teams won the WS. I like Willie and think he’s a good manager, but I think he’s just one of those managers. Of course, if the team keeps putting up multiple crooked-number innings this whole talk will go bye-bye.
Just realized i posted this in the worng thread. should have put it here instead.
These post game Randolph polls ask Black or White question. All due respect Cerrone, but this a pretty unrealistic and meaningless.
Asking if Willie Randolph is the reason for each specific win or loss throughout the season is the equivalent of giving Ike accolades/blame for outcome of each specific enemy engagement during WWII.
If Reyes boots a ball or fails to cover 2nd on a DP that directly impacts the game, no one will directly blame Willie. If Castillo does the same the next day, no one will directly blame Willie. IF OP can’t throw a strike and melts down in the 2nd inning, no one will directly blame Willie. If Delgado plays uninspired and strikes out with RISP, no one will directly blame WIllie. If Heilman comes in a hangs a changeup, no one will directly blame Willie….I can go on. But you get my point. When putting all this together and evaluating the inspiration level and focus of the TEAM, the blame on Willie certainly begins to pile up.
So WIllie might directly win a battle here and there. He will directly lose a few as well. Other times he has little direct influence on the outcome.
But it’s pretty damn clear that he is not winning the war.
That’s right Danny, but let’s remember Matt’s background in political communication that he mentions every so often. To a certain extent, he’s just having fun with us, I think. He knows as well as anyone that you can get any response you want by loading a poll or survey one way or another.
I honestly think he is having fun with us as well. He’s notices Willie bashing when we lose a game, so he equates that to Willie being the reason why we lost the game. That’s a stretch.
We get angry after a loss b/c it reconfirms the observation (and a frustrating one) we’ve all had over the past 162 games…and that is that this team underachieves.
So Matt is polling on one instance, as opposed to how that instance fits into the larger sample. It’ sloppy data gathering and represents very little, and I’d be shocked if Matt doesn’t realize this.
So yes, I think Cerrone has an agenda and that is the reason for asking this way to simplistic of a question after each game.
oh he is really not as diabolical as people tend to think
cerrone for manager!
either way…the guy is pretty damn smart.
i’m sorry, but unless you enjoy his see’n’speak post game pressers, there is no reason to keep willie around.
if you think this team should be good, then willie is clearly at least enough to blame here. good managers do not go .500 over nearly a full season’s sample size with good clubs.
if you think this team isn’t any good, then who gives a crap who the manager is? omar will be out by winter and there is no way a new GM will keep willie aboard.
stop telling me to get over 2007. you people can’t get over 2006.
Leyland should be fired, too. Fire everyone! Hell, they should of fired Piniella last year after getting swept out of the play offs with that level of talent and they should have fired Francona in 06 after the BoSox collapse due to variteks mid season departure….Shouldnt have Piniella gotten more out of his all-star team than an early sweep and shouldnt Francona with one of the best line ups in modern baseball history been able to survivie the catcher going down?
And don’t get me started on Leyland. Getting killed by the inferior Cards in the WS (hell, we at least took em to 7 and we had more injuries than a d day invasion brigade) and being a lock in for the 08 series with that talent and they are doing horrible….
Hell ,lets kill them all and hope their off spring don’t pollute our pure Mets waters which have had SO MANY historical WS wins and a long standing tradition of excellence.
Funny, its only in Queens and from rabid fans that you hear the talk of firing Willy. Sometimes Im glad I dont live there anymore because it gives me a much more stable view on things…
thanks for demonstrating your cogent understanding of the concept of sample size.
Yes, you are right. Willy has been here for 14 years and he has produced nothing!
Fire him, Delgado Beltran, Reyes, Wright, Santana (hell, he hasnt even hit 5 wins yet! Unnacceptable!).
Hell, Wilpon should institute a new rule where you are fired and beaten by the rabid fans afetr your first strike out and for pitchers after your first HR.
No tolerance and placing blame on the wrong people FTW!
you forgot castillo
Hell yeah! And then we can replace the team with mediocre farm talent and go back to our true roots of being a sub 500 team with no big names or play off appearances for a 10 year stretch.
And maybe, if we are lucky… and I mean real lucky, we can defy all baseball logic and make it to the WS…and lose to the Yankees.
dykstraw is VERY opinionated and has a “matter of fact” attitude…..that is UNTIL he refuses to address points made contrary to his own opinion….interesting….
in this thread i am simultaneously criticized for 1. posting too much and 2. posting too little.
thanks for the personal attacks, though, guys. really brings your pro-willie arguments to the fore.
First of all, Leyland is a great manager. He is doing everything he can to get the Tigers on track this season. He isn’t just saying “well, you’re gonna have days like this.” He’s been moving people around, switching positions, dropping Sheff in the lineup, etc. (I know b/c one of my best friends is a Tigers fan.)
Further, the Cardinals were a good team in ‘06. They only slumped because of injuries and got all their guys back for the postseason. They had been the WS and gotten swept themselves only a couple years prior. The fact that they beat the Big Bad Mets should have shown you how good they were.
Lastly, that Tigers rotation, similar to the Indians rotation last season, was destined for a fall. They had a bunch of young pitchers in Bonderman, Verlander, and Zumaya who they relied on heavily, and they all got tired from pitching too many innings. It happens.
Plus, they still made the Series, didn’t they?
What about the 2007 Cardinals?
As for moving people around Castillo and Church have been moved frequently.. Delgado has been moved down.
I dont love Willie, but I understand the fan’s sentiments. You have to blame the manager, because you can’t fire all 25 players. Therefore, the mgr gets more credit, as well as more criticism that he probably should. Net net, a manager might be responsible for 4/5 games in the standings. However, he also has to be a combination of motivator/cheerleader/dicsiplanarian in the clubhouse to manage all these million dollar egos. The days under which a mgr could bench and fine people indiscrimanantly are over. If Randolph wanted to bench Beltran, do you think the Wilpon’s would back him up? Plus, the superstars generally have no trade/limited trade contracts, and salary determines so much today. Why do u think no one wanted Boston Manny when he was available for almost nothing 2 years ago?
I have followed the Mets since 1964. The team just seems listless. I don’t know what it is, but I am not particularly hopeful that Pedro (and maybe El Duque) will change things. I think we need a catalyst. In 1969, the Mets got Clendenon. in 2006, we got Lo Duca. We need someone like that to fire up the clubhouse. JMHO.
Willie is the Herm Edwards of Baseball. Fire everyone around him get a couple of GURU’s to assist and it still not Willie Fault.
Bottom is this team is underachieving going on 3 years now. Is it the players…no the buck stops with the manager and Willie is clueless …
he doesnt know what he is doing and we already have lost 6 games b/c of his (feelings) we’re 1 game back instead of 5 up…
Willie is not right for this team Go back to teh Bronx bring in Buck Showalter!
How did they under achieve in 2006?? Because they did not win the WS after having too many late season injuries?
As for 2007 yes, this season I am just not sure we are that good of a team. One that will stay competitive but unless everyone has career years like they did in 06 we will not be dominant.
It comes down to this, if you think the team as currently constructed is underachieving, then a lot of the blame falls on the manager/coaching staff. If you feel this team, as constructed, is mediocare .500 team that might contend for a playoff spot, then the blame falls on Omar.
Personally, when I see players like Reyes, Beltran, Perez and Heilman clearly not playing to their abilities, guys like Wright struggling at times, it makes you wonder. There is a LOT of talent and ability on this team, especially when you consider that the best pitcher on the planet was acquired this off-season to improve on a team that’s major weakness was starting pitching last year. I know Castillo, Delgado, Alou, Pedro have been injured/disappointments thus far, and maybe it was foolish to rely on these guys for any contributions this year – but when you look at rosters on paper, this team still has considerably more talent to make up for the dead weight, and that talent is not playing at the level they should be playing at.
exactly, but if we’re a .500 club then who cares who the manager is? whether it’s his fault or not, willie is not going to be the manager in 2009 if he is not managing in october 2008. there’s one easy thing we can change, so why not change it?
Don’t get me wrong yet – I’m still not *there* yet on the Fire Willie bandwagon – I think he needs at least another month or so to see if things get going right. But you’re right – it gets to a point where the only way you’re going to tell if this is in fact a .500 team or if it’s the manager is to dispose of the manager. Dumping the GM is more of a long-term situtation to deal with anyway.
cribbing from faith and fear in flushing: if the mets go 15-5 over their next 20, they would have a record of 86-76 over their last 162, which is not even playoff material. and do you really think they are winning 15 of 20?
it’s time to take a long hard look at the facts.
Yup, the Mets and Willie are just average. Let’s all take your attitude and just go home and give up any hope what so ever.
Good thing we’re playing a tight division that no one is running away with….
Do you guys even look at whats going on in this world outside of Queens?
We’re a game and half behind first place in a division where everyone is playing with parity.
Ummm, if the mets go 15-5 in their next 20, they would be 32-20….i’ll take it
I don’t understand your argument…
This is the classic example of fans still harping on 2007…they take LAST YEAR’S record and combine it with this year’s record….if this isn’t a practice in futility, i don’t know what is..
New Team, New Year
I don’t think Willie should be fired right now, either. Nor should he have at any point this season. I think he should have been fired after last season. He wasn’t, so he gets 40-50 games this season to prove that this is not the same team from last summer. That’s a fair enough sample to evaluate.
As we were on the verge of dropping to a .500 record after 30 games played, I stated yesterday that Willie should be given the next 11 games to produce a different style of baseball. The clock ticks from yesterday until the nationally televised series finale at Yankee Stadium. If they don’t win at least 6 of those 11, then they would remain at .500, and Willie should be canned on the off day prior to going to ATL that following Tuesday.
Yesterday was a very good start. But if this team cannot harness any momentum for this upcoming homestand and start collecting some W’s (in consecutive fashion), than what suggests that things will ever change under this coaching regime?
Can I ask a question, Mike? If we’re to overlook Willie’s demeanor, his line-ups, his handling of the bullpen, his handling of the clubhouse…WHAT THE HELL IS HE THERE FOR???
No one is arguing that the players are not responsible. What many of us are arguing is that Willie is no longer getting the most out of these players, that they’ve tuned him out. He was never even a mediocre strategist, and we were sold a bale of goods about him “handling players well” and being a “good clubhouse guy”. I asked this question the other day, if Willie is no longer getting through to his players, what value does he have?
If someone wants to make the argument that Willie is still an effective manager, I’m more than willing to listen to it. But now we’re supposed to believe that the manager makes no difference, and that personal pride shouild motivate players to be the best they can be. So why even have a manger? If you simply need an administrator to hand in a line-up card every game, why are they paid so much?
Yes, players should have pride in there work, and should be accountable for their results. But that’s true in every walk of life, Mike, not just baseball. Yet, you don’t find companies without executives and mid-level managers, do you? Human nature is human nature, whether you’re making $20,000 a year or $20 million. Players need a kick in the ass once in a while, just as they need someone to listen to them when things aren’t going well. What they really need is a manager who understands the difference.
Case in point…look at Tony Larussa their record is something like 20-12 and Larussa doesn’t make a difference. Please Willie is way over his head.
Buck Shiowalter
Wally Backman
Gary Carter
We need someone who is hungry for a ring and have a zero tolerance for going 1-45 delgado
Did Larussa make a difference last year?
I dont know after a World Series Win? Jack$##
What manager did he beat to go to the World Series?
You still did not answer the question, did Larussa make a difference last year?
larussa’s #2 starter was braden looper. you are so illogical i can only assume you actually are willie.
I have been on record as saying that Willie most likely should go. But to continually blame him for every thing is just plain garbage. Most managers have no effect on their team and even the “good” ones give no guarntee that their team will be good. You want to blame last year’s Larussa on injuries but ignore the fact that Pedro, Elduque, Alou, and every OF was injured last season.
And by Braden Looper, you mean the one that is currently 5-1 with a 3.95 ERA?
would you have assembled a team with braden looper as your second starter?
small sample size. but also that pitching coach tends to turn trash into treasure like our very own jacket is supposed to do.
it’s irrelevant whether he should be “blamed for everything.” he needs to be fired.
Larussa got swept in the WS and managed the AS game horribly last year and had a pathetic 07.
Yeah, he beat us in 06. With a full strength team against our team that had no Pedro or El Duque and had nobodies pitching way above their head….
Hardly anything to commend LaRussa for. And most analysts feel that the Cards will not maintain their pace…they dont have the pitching to do so.
Would you have assembled a team with Glavine as your #1 and Elduque as your #2 followed by Maine, Perez and Pelfrey?
In context to 07? No, not given other options Id rather have….but thats the line up Willy had to work with. And that same line up was what he had to work with during the 06 play offs MINUS El Duque…
I think Randolph deserves some credit for taking us that far, literally the 9th inning of the 7th game of the NLCS with a depleted pitching staff and no Duaner.
Which was a good protion of last years problems, too…
How you can minimize LaRussa as a manager is mind boggling. I personally detest his managerial style, but the guy has been managing a LOONG time and has won 2 rings, been to 2 others, and has been manager of the year 4 times.
Yeah, the Cardinals stunk last year, but they lost their Cy Young pitcher and MVP 1B. What would you expect them to do?
What did you expect the Mets to do with all their injuries and a slumping Delgado?
Larussa is a very good manager but to make him out to be Yoda and Willie Jar Jar Binks is lunacy.
To mention Willie and LaRussa in the same breathe, at this stage of the game, is lunacy.
LaRussa is a future HOF manager with excellent credentials. When you manage as long as he has, you’re going to have a few bad years.
There’s a reason this guy has been around for so long. When Willie has LaRussa’s credentials then come talk to me.
here here!
whether or not the players are to blame does not get the manager off the hook!
i mean, how is willie not to blame for his use of delgado or heilman if they struggle? he’s the one who writes out the lineup cards and calls to the bullpen.
Because their replacements have even worse numbers?
is that a question? if so the answer is “no.”
Give an example. Who do you want to use at 1B? Anderson, he was hitting in the .100’s coming into yesterdays game. As for Heilman, you want Sosa instead. If you play in a lot of close games you can’t continually go to Smith, Sanchez and Wagner. Show is doing much better but that’s because Willie is using him in his proper role. Feliciano has been nothing special either.
um, easley against lefties, for starters
willie, you continually use everybody in the pen in every game anyway, so i guess you have to use everyone. can’t be your fault you abuse the crap out of your bullpen though.
I agree he needs to let the starters stay out there longer. I hope that as the season goes on and it gets warmer he will start doing that. I could see using Easley against LH, that’s not bad. However, our problem has not been against LHSP this season oddly enough. I could go with at platoon but to say that you have to bench Delgado all the time because the replacements are better is just not true.
And as for your ignorant comments about me being Willie, everyone on this blog knows how you feel about Willie because you say it 2999 times a day. I am already on record as saying that Willie needs to go. I just don’t need to continually say it. Quality posters on here who respond to each other already know where I stand on this issue. I don’t need to keep clogging up the blog with the same junk.
it is not a black or white question. my issues with willie are completely unrelated to my issues with delgado, castillo et al. i can recognize that certain players are underperforming while i say that a certain manager is underperforming.
the post above basically says “don’t blame willie, look how much these guys suck!” which, not only fails to recognize that these guys sucking may have to do with willie, but fallaciously forces me to choose who to blame. i blame everyone. but only one person can easily be removed.
the title of this post is “willie the scapegoat.” so comments about how i feel about willie are inherently appropriate. you will not find me screaming about willie under some post about how mike pelfrey’s mom really likes her new “go big pelf” shirt.
I don’t know, you post almost as much as I do and at least 75% of them have to do with your dislike of Willie. Besides why does this site have to be so polarized. It does not have to be if you dislike something Willie does you are a hater or if you don’t blame him for world hunger you are an appologist.
Agreed! Im not a willy apologist by any means, but its ignorant to think the blame falls solely on him….
He used the bullpen so much last year because the starting pitching sucked. If he left starters in longer to lose even harder Dykstraw would say he needs to pull his starters earlier. If Willy benched Delgado for Easly/Anderson and they underperformed he would fault Willy.
It just gets old to hear the illogical banter of the Willy haters on here….
oh my god, my therapist posts here too
I have a question. if the manager does not matter, and it is up to the players to do their jobs, then why do they have a Manager of the Year Award?
Same reason they have a gold golve :)
Right on man,,, Right on.. Great post
This is a predictable reaction…defending the manager from receiving criticism. The critiques that I direct at Willie are based mostly on strategy and tone. I will address the latter first.
Willie has apparently adopted the Joe Torre credo of taking it “one game at a time” and “maintaining an even keel”. While I’m not down on that approach in general, it is plain that this even keel has led us to an even ballclub. One that never gets too up over the good or too down over the bad. The result, is a .500 ballclub that looks like an 84 win team at best. Some fire, some motivation, some spark is required because these are NOT normal adults. They do not have normal jobs or motivations. Their finances are secured for generations. They play baseball for a living. As such, oftentimes, one must realize that normal adult concerns and POVs never develop. This means that the manager must be able to kick things into gear when needed, and it is certainly needed at this point.
Secondly, Willie’s simply a poor strategic manager. I oftentimes wonder about the moves he makes or doesn’t make. His tendencies to fall in love with certain arms out of his bullpen (ahem: Heilman) is infuriating. He never plays the percentages and his “hunches” are mostly a crock of stuff. So we end up with Aaron Heilman or Jorge Sosa making appearances in spots that are suitable for Joe Smith or Pedro Feliciano, etc. Case in point, he replaces Feliciano, who is a lefty, to bring in Heilman, who is a righty, to face Ryan Howard, who led off the 8th inning, rather than leave Feliciano in the game for one batter and then bringing in Heilman. He leaves a crippled and old Luis Castillo in the game with 2 outs in the 9th when he has a capable and hot Marlon Anderson (who is a 2b by trade i believe) available on the bench. The otehr day (I believe against Arizona) He “forgot” to remove Alou from the game after his final AB (in the 6th or 7th) and replace him with Chavez. He ended up getting lucky when Alou comes thru with a single in the 9th, but in the 8th a ball drops in front of Alou that Chavez would have had a better shot at.
Willie has to go because his time is up. He’s not setting the proper tone for the ballclub, he’s awful with strategic decisions, and we win in spite of him rather than with him or because of him.
I am a black american young man, who was proud to have Willie take over the helm, but that’s not reason enough for me to defend the guy when it’s clear that his time is up!
Very, very, well put. A little long, yeah, but well put nonetheless. :)
Well said a1boogz, you should comment more. Haven’t seen your screename.
I have a question for all the Randolph apologists…
Say the Mets fire Willie, and he’s available. What team out there do you think is going to pay him to be their 2009 manager?
How could any other GM look at his tenure as manager of the Mets, and say to themselves, “Yeah! I want some of that! That’s what we need to get to the promised land.”
Same one that would hire Bobby V. Oh wait, I guess Japan will have a new manager.
Bobby V. wouldn’t manage here if a team asked. He chose to go to Japan.
Right after he got fired and worked on TV looking for another job.
You have to be kidding me. Every time there is a job opening his name comes up. It’s not like he couldn’t get another job here, so cut this crap of implying he couldn’t get hired. If Grady Little was able to score another job I’m sure Bobby V. could.
It’s a moot point anyway. He’s not leaving Japan.
Willie is the Herm Edward of Baseball
Please end the misery…
Ask KC Chiefs what they think of Herm. Its only taken him 2 years to completely destroy that franchise
Willie apologist. . . But there is nothing to apologize for.
Everything wrong with the team is either
a) players – with a history of playing well – not living up to past performance
or
b) not having the right type of players on the team to use.
In both cases Willie is absolutely not at fault. It isn’t like the Mets are chalk full of young players Willie has to motivate and make sure they play above themselves. That type of manager wouldn’t work with the players the Mets currently have – mostly all vets.
It is the players fault in this case for not playing up to their abilities.
As for b). People scream, rant, rave, etc about Willie using guys like Heilman or Sosa. WHAT THE HELL IS HE SUPPOSED TO DO? It’s not like he has other options in the pen. He has guys and he has to use them. Give him a Hideki Okajima and he’d use him.
Managing in baseball is overrated. Any manager has little to do with the outcome at the end. There is no week long game planning, ala football, or calling plays in certain situations, ala b-ball.
Willie might get fired and the team might start playing better for a short time, but at the end, unless the players step up themselves it won’t matter.
question to you koko
Do you think a manager can inspire his club to play hard? Do you think the manager has an influence on the outcome of a ballgame?
Do you realize we blew this lead to the likes of the Marlins and the Nationals? Its not like we lost 2 -1 games against Webb or Smoltz. We got our buts kicked by a group of minor leaguers. This coach does not believe that he is responsible for the play of this team or he doesn’t have the ability to motivate people. Either one of these is unacceptable.
So after the collapse we heard Willie tell us he should of done things differently and that changes were going to be made. Now I don’t know if he has changed because I’m not in the clubhouse but the fact is that this team hasn’t played for him in about a year. For whatever reason he is more of a negative influence on this ballclub than a positive. I truly believe this team would play better without a manager than with Willie.
He needs to figure some things out fast!!
I’m talking about last seasons collapse in paragraph 2
Do you realize that the players played horribly and they, the media, and the fans knew it. And if Willie started to show signs of panic that would most likely have put even more pressure on the players then they already had (which was enormous).
If a team chalk full of vets need to play for a manager there is something wrong with them. They should be playing for themselves/team.
Honestly there isn’t a lot Willie can/could do. He has players that he plays.
In the hubbub of NY, having a calm guy as a coach isn’t bad and it also doesn’t show apathy – even though fans think it does. Was Torre apathetic? No. Fans would say that Girardi isn’t apathetic – how is that working on for the Yankees?
—-
Do you think a manager can inspire his club to play hard? Do you think the manager has an influence on the outcome of a ballgame?
—-
Yes to the first part, but only partly. It works better with a younger team. Vets necessarily don’t listen at the same level. And the second part, not on most nights.
I think your argument about Vets playing hard because they are vets is very weak. This isn’t 1974. These are different types of ballplayers. And its clear that not one of our vets besides Pedro has the heart of guys like Brett Farve.
When is the last time you’ve see a team of aging players that hadn’t won anything come together WITHOUT a managers inspiration a win anything????
These are not guys who have to produce in order to pay the bills. These are not guys that live in the neighborhood and grew up Mets fans.
These are grown men who live in multi million dollar houses and don’t have to deal with society like you and I. They live in a bubble
I don’t know how the age of a ball player has anything to do with dealing with a collapse. They were in the middle of the collapse and not a single player on that team had ever dealt with a situation like that before
Last part first. . . And Willie – or for that matter any manager in MLB – has ever dealt with a collapse like that? Nope. What makes you so confident that another manager would have had a different outcome?
Like I said on most nights the manager has little do with the outcome. Was it Willie that came out on the last game of the season and pitched maybe his worst game of his career? No it was Glavine. And the day before was it Willie that went out and maybe pitched the best game of his career? No it was Maine.
In both instances any manager didn’t give Glavine a non-pep talk and saved one just for Maine. It doesn’t work like that.
Really Terry Francona was a has-bin manager in baseball before he went to the Red Sox. The Sox won the World Series to break the curse, not because of Francona, but because the players played at a high level and Francona had the pieces to use to win.
Players are professional, but have huge ego’s as well. A vet doesn’t necessarily like Ra-Ra guys in their ear all the time. Sadly or unsadly, they do think they can do it themselves with a tweak or two from a manager, coach, etc.
Way too much blame is put on a manager when a team sucks – in every sport – and very little credit is ever given to one when the team plays well.
As mentioned, it’s much easier to complain about one guy that doesn’t get paid $10s of million, then 25 of them that do.
KOKO my man,, .. I’m sorry but you need to check you info about how the Red Sox came back 3-0 against the yanks.. Francona was a huge HuGE factor in that comeback. So your wrong about that.
Also how do you know what VETS need or don’t need? Are you a Veteran baseball player? And when have you ever heard stories of VETS saying they hate trying to be inspired?????? Thats just doesn’t make sense dude. We all need motivation and inspiration at times…
They are not JEDI KNIGHTS
Just cause you may have heard a Veteran ballplayer from the 80’s or earlier say they didn’t like the manager to get involved doesn’t have anything to do with todays type of player. Remember these guys make more money in a year than you and my families combined. Its different now.. MUCH MUCH different
I’m struggling buying your argument about what TODAYS VETS want and don’t want.. Unless you are in your 30’s and currently on a major league roster then you can’t make this statement.. Sorry man
Reality is that a Manager can inspire a ballclub and that Willie could of done something to prevent the collapse.
if anything vets probably need more motivation than younger players. younger players need to make names for themselves and set themselves up for life-changing paydays. vets are set for life.
Francona was a mediocre manager at best before he went t the Sox. Torte was a mediocre manager before he went to the Yankees. Do you think they all of a sudden turned their managing styles around to motivate/inspire athletes only on their new teams? No. It occured because the players they had were inspired temselves and playedup to their potential.
I don’t recall Francona hitting the ball to tie the game or the other players seeing Curr Schilling pitch with a bloody sock. Seeing a teammate go through that or having a vocal leader like Variteck inspires players because they are peers.
If you think todays players need inspiration, maybe it should start with their fans not booing them? 30,000 cheerings fans regardless of the outcome will lways inspire a team more then one person. Maybe the fans are at fault for not cheering and supporting positively enough. I guess not, since it is all Willies fault.
BTW: If I can’t make the statement I made because I’m not a MLB player, how can you make the statement you made unless you are one? What makes you an expert in what todays players need?
You know if we can’t agree who to blame here then clean the FREAKIN house. Let’s start fresh with our new ballpark next year. Hell, change the name too. CHASE FIELD!!!
As others are saying…this is all less about this year that last year and The Collapse. There is no reason on earth he shouldn’t have been canned for that.
*than
I cant remember Gip, are you still angry about Willie, the collapse and no one being held accountable?
Calling Willie a scapegoat is inaccurate. It implies he’s innocent of this team being mediocre which isn’t the case.
also, i would prefer the team to be managed by an actual goat
then at least we would have beat the cubs
Not innocent just not the primary blame. However, such is the life of a manager.
This is an unbelievably bad post by Metsblog…..of course Willie is to blame for the Mets lackluster performance since last season. It is the manager’s job to motivate his players. If the players aren’t motivate and play poorly, shame on them, but also the team needs to fire the manager and get someone else in there to shake things up and light a fire! In sum, let me ask you this Mike Nichols, do you actually watch sports or just have a rotiserre team? Of course if a team plays poorly for an extended time (over 1 year in this case) it’s the manager’s fault!!!!!!! Wake up!
KOKO your Coocoo for coco puffs:
Willie lost this team after we lost to teh Cardinals. He wqas badly out managed by Larussa and Bobby Cox just kaughs at him.
The horrible strike zone our players received is a joke. Bobby Cox gets thrown out in the 1st innning…ANy difference a manger makes?
Didn’t Willie say he made it to top step once…..Whoa the rage!
Met players laugh at him. He sold out Lo Duca last year in the locker roon fiasco some manager we got…
Got back to the Bronx
Funny thing….
The players love Willie, everyone but Lo Duca last year (and that was a gripe about PT…which he didnt deserve cause he sucked goat bwalls.
The fans are mad at the collapse so we invent this idea that the players are mad at Willie too!!! You tell me which players have “tuned out” Willie, I dare you!!!
Here come like 5 comments about Heilman is sucking purposely this year cause hes mad hes not a starter…adn their all as asinine as sayign the players “played hard” when they won with 7 dinky singles and “didnt play hard” when they lost a 9-8 game….
Willie sucks, move on already…..most Mets fans realize it and probably by year’s end, Fred & Jeff Wilpon will realize it as well.
If most fans realize it, why do most polls even away from here still have him as over 50%? Just too close to call right now.
pedro, glavine, delgado all admitted to being complacent at the end of last season. two hall of famers and one borderline! are you not capable of reading between the lines? if it’s not a manager’s job to keep a team on its toes, especially when said manager is mediocre at managing a game between the lines, then what are we paying him for!
all you willie lovers do is talk about 2006 like we won the world series while you generalize about the rest of us to the point of open hostility. please tell me what makes this man a good manager!
man your a seriously misinformed.. I know of numerous players on that team that don’t get along with Randolph.. Not only that I’m currently listening to WFAN where Mike and Chris are talking to john heyman and there saying that Beltran and Willie do not like each other. So I’m not sure what your talking about dude
mota, you have about as much proof that the players love willie as anybody does that they don’t love willie.
bottom line, imo, is that if the supporters of willie are satisfied with the way the team is playing, then shutup and enjoy! the rest of us who are fed up with watching this team underachieve are entitiled to voice our displeasure. that is part of being a fan. cheer when you are happy, bitch when you are not.
I don’t honestly believe that anyone can look at this teams performance and say “wow, they are really getting it done.” they are better than their record. expectations are high, as they should be with a $137 million payroll, as well as the 4th highest ticket prices in baseball! I mean, do you people sincerely believe that this team is playing to it’s potential? are you satisfied with being a .500 team? and do you really believe that when the time comes this team will step-up like it needs to?
Blame the players? Sure, they are to blame because Willie can’t play for them. However, if the players can motivate themselves, what is the job of the manager then? We know Willie is not a tactician from the start. If his job isn’t to motivate, what are the Wilpons paying him for then?
Here Here Mr. Nichols
To all the Willie haters.
Ever think 2006 was a fluke and that the Mets just aren’t that good?maybe the perception on how good the team should be is completely skewed. We have old vets who are past their primes. Overrated and enigmatic younger players. A pitching coach who thinks he is better then he really is.
But I guess that is all Willies fault. I am absolutely not happy with the performance if the team, but I realize it is not one mans fault, especially a man who does not hit or pitch and a man who had no say in what players he gets to have.
Everyone, including me, wanted Rick Down fired last year. I admit my mistake and realize the problem lies my further then one person. Firing Willie isn’t going to solve much in the long term.
Maybe we get a short term boost and that might be worth it, but atthe end we’ll face teams that are just better.
Another example if an overratedness of a manager. To a T Philly fans want/wanted Charlie Manuel fired because they think he is horrible and doesn’t inspire their team and is a horrible tactician.
You know what happened? The Philly players play great. They have clubhouse leaders. They have clutch players. They have players that can and have stepped in for one another. We just might not. That isn’t one managers fault. It’s at the core of the player himself.
Also I think there is a double standard going on with the assistant coaches.
If a pitcher succeeds it is because of Rick Peterson. But if a pitcher fails it’s Willie’s fault.
If a batter hits well it’s either because of HoJo or the player finally got into a groove himself. But if the hitter struggles it’s because Willie doesn’t motivate him.
Just seems extremely odd and unequal.