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In a post to his blog for the New York Post, Joel Sherman quotes a long-time National League scout as saying, while the Phillies have spirit and the Braves can hit, “I really think the 
Mets are the class of the division if – and this is my big if – if the two Carloses hit.”
…there has been a lot of talk regarding Carlos Delgado, and rightfully so, but some are saying that Carlos Beltran is getting a free pass from due criticism…
In 110 at bats this season, Beltran is hitting .218 with just two home runs and 13 RBI – all while batting clean up.
Beltran is hitting .167 with runners on base, and is 0 for 19 with runners in scoring position and two outs.
However, he is on pace to draw nearly 130 walks this season, compared to just 69 all of last year.
…to me, this says he is not getting any quality pitches to hit…and so he is being patient and taking the walk…and when he does choose to swing, if you notice, most of the pitches are outside of the strike zone – and, as such, he is on pace to strike out the most of any season in his career…
…frankly, you can thank delgado’s struggles and the early-season absence of Moises Alou for this…i mean, why would any pitcher give beltran a decent pitch to hit if the only threat behind him is Ryan Church, assuming he isn’t batting second that day…
…also, there are lots of people who keep suggesting that beltran is playing in pain…to which i think, no kidding…when isn’t he playing in pain…i suspect he hit 40 home runs in 2006 while in pain, and he strikes out in pain…it is what it is…
…the problem, now, be it physical or mental, is that beltran looks to have developed some bad habits – probably from having the bat on his shoulder so much – and now seems to legitimately be in a slump…such is baseball…
Beltran is in a precarious position. Delgado became his protection in ‘06 as well as his familiarity to confidence. Now that Delgado is neither, I wonder if Beltran welcomes Delgado’s departure after this year
Just throwing it out there… how does the fan base feel about Beltran in the 2 hole?
1. Reyes
2. Beltran
3. Wright
4. Church
5. Alou
6. Delgado…. etc.
Positives: Beltran could see better pitches with the improved protection, he will take enough pitches to let Reyes steal a base, has good speed, and its a pretty smart hitter
Negatives: Strikes out and doesnt make contact all the time, Church has flourished in the 2-hole so why would we move him?, supposedly has too much power for the prototypical 2-hitter
Thoughts?
Might not be a bad idea only because where he is now isn’t working. It could help get him out of his slump maybe. Then when he gets hot and starts hitting for power again, he can slide back to #4.
i’ve said this alot recently
As crazy as it might sound, I’d like to see:
1. Reyes
2. Church
3. Wright
4. Delgado (yes, I know)
5. Beltran
6. Alou
This way Delgado might see more fastballs, as would Beltran since Alou is more of a threat behind him than Delgado. Maybe it would also get Delgado back on track.
Delgado’s problem is that his bat has slowed and he can’t catch up to the fastballs like he used to . . . Seeing more fastballs isn’t going to help if he can’t hit ‘em.
I’ve always been a big Delgado fan and hoped he could turn it around this year, but I’m finally on the bandwagon believing he’s probably close to done . . .
I kind of see what you are trying to do here. But I still feel that you want to give your best hitters the most at-bats, and that should supercede everything else.
I may be inclined to go this way:
1. Reyes
2. Beltran
3. Wright
4. Delgado
5. Alou
6. Church
7. Schneider
8. Castillo
This way Beltran sees more fastballs between Reyes and Wright – Delgado sees more fastballs between Wright and Alou and Church can provide protection for Moises, plus with the exception of Church and Schneider it breaks of the lefties and makes the line-up balanced.
if anything i think this would be temporary at best. Beltran is an RBI guy and you need those guys in a position to drive in runs. I dont see willie pulling the trigger on this but its creative
He has done it in the past to get players going.
then i hope he does because they need to get motivated and going. I know its early but they have to start to work out those kinks. Hopefully he does who knows with willie….
I’d say put him anywhere but the cleanup spot. I mean, he must have the lowest BA of any cleanup player in the league. It’s just not working, so change something, anything! But not willie, he’ll stay with “his guy.” genius!
Ryan Howard, an MVP in this league, is batting .165 from the 4 hole.
A bigger sample size is the following:
Balt – Millar .217
Chw – Konerko .215
KC – Guillen .185
TB – Pena .200
Was – Johnson .216
Phi – Howard .165
NYM – Beltran .218
So apparently Willie isn’t the only manager in the league that continues to stay with “his” guy, should the managers for all these teams also be fired?
yes…exactly….Randolph’s managerial difficency has everything to do with the perfromance of our 4th hitter.
Way to sum it up.
you just put millar and jose guillen in the same class as ryan howard and carlos beltran
I’ve been telling people that for a couple of weeks also.
Beltran is a natural 2-hitter. And it gets you two switch hitters and then alternating LH and RH bats the rest of the way.
Thing is, this is the lineup that WOULD be used if this were a HS team, where decisions could be made strictly for baseball reasons, without contractual considerations.
Just like if the Yankees were a HS team, they’d have plugged Arod in at SS the minute they acquired him and moved Jeter to make room for him. And just like you’d use your closer when the game was really on the line, not necessarily in the 9th.
I don’t like Church in the 4 hole. Leave Beltran there and allow Alou to bat 5th because it will allow Beltran to see better pitches. He hasn’t hit much partly because Delgado hasn’t protected him much.
Putting Beltran in the two hole for a while is not a bad idea. RD mentioned on the broadcast Tuesday, I believe, that Luis Castillo mentioned you see much better pitches in the 2 slot, in fact the Dodgers are doing that same thing with Andruw Jones right now. Granted, Jones can’t catch up with anything over 81 mph at this point, but Beltran doesn’t seem to have that problem. Besides if he keeps walking like he has been, maybe that opens up some RBI opps for Wright, or maybe some hit and runs with Reyes and Beltran. Beltran can carry a team when he is hot (see Houston, 2004), so anything that can jumpstart needs to be done, NOW!
Exactly, the at the top of the lineup the biggest thing is to have guys with high OBP, its all a numbers game, the higher the OBP the more chances to score. Eventhough Beltran is hitting just .218 his OBP is still a very respectable .363 because of all of the walks.
Lets throw him in the 2 hole, it shouldn’t hurt the run production much and if he can get a couple more hits off of fastballs with wright protecting him, we should see that OBP go up toward .400
I’m inclined to agree with you. With no respect for the hitters behind him, Beltran is getting jack to hit.
HOWEVER. He has of late been hitting a lot of balls that have found gloves. This will even out and those hard liners he’s been hitting will start going for hits.
But some power would be nice.
not for nothing…the guy makes 17 million a year does he need ted williams behind him to hit 280 with a few more homeruns i mean c’mon already…this guys gotta start hitting and i don’t want to hear any excuses anymore
Finally a sensible comment. No joke – these guys are pros. I’m not saying he should be hitting .340 but .280 should certainly be within reach even with crapola hitters behind him…
Sensible? SENSIBLE? You must be kidding. Yeah, these guys are pros, but pros slump. Hitting, in case you didn’t notice, is HARD, and if your timing or rhythm is off, sometimes you go for a bit without doing a whole lot.
Your comments show that you just know very little about the game of baseball. Lineup protection is a huge deal in this game. If you don’t have a hitter behind you that pitchers don’t want to face, they’ll throw you pitches outside the strike zone all day, and the end result will be that you’ll walk more, since they’re throwing you so many balls, and you’ll strike out more, since you’re chasing pitches out of the zone trying to get hits to please idiotic fans who don’t understand the game.
And if you think that batting average is an accurate indicator of how someone is hitting, you are wrong.
Guys slump. Beltran will be fine.
no one is saying he won’t be fine eventually and obviously the lineup means something…but the guy is 0-19 with runners in scoring position and 2 out and hitting like 150 with runners in scoring position period…i dont care if im hitting behind him…that’s unacceptable…ryan church had brian schneider and the pitcher hitting behind him earlier in the year but he was hitting 350…these guys know how to hit without good bats behind them in the lineup…the guy is in a slump and he needs to get out of it…ohh and im sure he had great hitters behind him in kc right which is what in part earned him this contract…but i know very little ab baseball i guess.
He batted in the 2-hole at KC.
Yes, that’s right; if you’re comparing how guys pitch to Ryan Church to how they pitch to Carlos Beltran, you do not know very much about baseball. It’s one thing to pitch around a star (Beltran) to get to easier hitters behind him (Delgado, et al), and it’s another thing to pitch to a team’s seventh hitter.
I hate this argument, past performance is not necessarily an indicator of future performance. Yes he is being paid 17 million, but that contract was signed 2 years ago off of his past production. You can’t say this guy has to hit 280 becuase of the money he is making.
This guy was paid the money to be a consistent, if not spectacular player. He is there to produce – that’s his job. He needs to execute. Would your boss care about your 100000 excuses if the job you’re doing is well below expectations?
280 isnt even good…and he wont hit 280 i hope he hits somewhere around 265 at this point…but the power production has to be there and the guy is 30 or 31, am i supposed to expect him to hit 218 now bc he signed his contract a few years ago.
We should put Luis Castillo #4 and Beltran #2.
jk
Sounds like the Tony LaRussa school of managing.
I hate the pitcher batting 8th thing. Especially when it works and everyone rides his jock for it.
Beltran in the 2-hole is not a revolutionary idea…its where he’s hit second most often in his career:
3rd: 773 games (.274 career BA)
2nd: 226 games (.292 career BA)
4th: 120 games (.290 career BA)
It could be worth a shot to see if it gets him going.
Yes but that was before he became bigger and more of a power hitter.
What I mean by that is that once he gets going he would be a waste in the 2 hole.
But once he gets going he could be moved *out* of the 2 hole.
Right, my point exactly.
Are you implying HGH? kidding.
I think he’ll snap out of it. He is slumping and he has no protection. The first week of the season, he could do no wrong. It happens, especially with a historically streaky hitter like Beltran.
I really like the idea of moving Beltran to the 2 spot as long as Alou is healthy. Church in the 4 spot is our best hitter with RISP and would still have Alou’s protection. Alou does not need protection and Delgado is Delgado. Once Castro gets back that would keep to LH from batting in a row vs a LHP. I would even go with this lineup against LHP.
Reyes, Beltran, Wright, Church, Alou, Easley, Castro, Castillo.
Don’t make the mistake of counting on castro for anything when he comes back. Besides, he is a back-up catcher despite Omar’s sweet $4.6 million contract he gave him. Way too injury prone and undependable…
But as a backup who can hit LHP he is ok. I am not asking him to start but a couple of times a week. And don’t make it sound like a big contract that was for 2 years at that price.
Castro can hit LHP but the $4.6 million was too much to pay a back-up catcher. Omar got a little over zealous with some contracts last year just like the sosa $2 million that thye may have to eat. Aside from the contract, I agree with Castro’s ability to hit but his track record shows too many injuries. Hopefully he can remain healthy and help the club this year….
Everyone was wondering why he did not get more. 2.3 a year is nothing for a backup catcher. It’s about half what Schnieder gets paid.
Sosa wasn’t horrible until the end of last year. But then again, so was everyone in the bullpen.
I like it. I’d put Alou 4th, but I like it.
But c’mon….Do you really think Willie would even consider doing this? No matter how legit, this is such a meaningless argument.
There used to be a mop with torches and pitchforks calling for Beltran to hit from the 2-hole.
Anyone have Beltran’s stats since Alou has been back and he’s had better “protection” behind him??
mop = mob
Very limited sample size. Since Alou has been back we have had a blow out game that will skew a lot of numbers.
And yes I remember the constant debate of moving Beltran to the 2 spot, it was worse than the Church Castillo debate.
Beltran will be fine. I have very high confidence in him. He does not look lost up there. In fact, he appears to be getting closer to shaking this thing in my eyes. Either way it is undeniable that due to Delgado’s suffering reputation, no one will want to pitch to Beltran. With Alou back now, and assuming he starts to hit a bit and make teams pay for walking Beltran, I expect that the numbers from Beltran will start to take off.
Well, looking at the bright side, at least 2 of the 4 duds in the line up I expect to get hot, and potentially run off a long torrid streak. And if they do it when the other “real” hitters are at least carrying their own weight, this team will sizzle.
The 2 duds of course are Reyes and Beltran. Castillo and Delgado being the 2 that I don’t expect more from. Castillo is doing better lately, but this is a good as it could get, and Delgado will have his occasional it, interspersed with a lot of mediocrity.
If the Mets had 1 more big bat in the line up, Beltran 2nd would be awesome. That is where Delgado is killing them. Look at this line up:
Reyes
Beltran
DW
Big Bat guy
Church
Alou
Schneider
Castillo.
That is a tremendous order (at least the top 6!). Wright could have 140 RBIs with that if he just relaxed and stopped fishing.
BBG in 2006 was Delgado I guess. Now, it is hopefully whoever they get to replace him (for 2009 at least). Unless they can swing a trade for someone like Dunn.
Only other option really would be at 2B but no way they are coming up with a big power bat for there. And if they get someone for LF, it is partly offset by losing Alou.
So in conclsuion, CD is killing the line up, not CB.
Castillo is not done this season at all. He will get hot and bring his average right back up to around .290. That will make a big difference in the #2 spot eventually.
Reyes is the big one here. You can’t have a leadoff man who never gets on. Look at our offensive numbers when he does well.
2 hot AA prospects for Brian Roberts anyone?
Reyes
Roberts
Wright
Beltran
Church
Alou
Delgado
Schneider/Castro
That is pretty formidable. Although the O’s started off pretty hot, i think they’ve lost like 6 in a row. Perhaps back to reality. Trade deadline maybe?
Before anyone mentions it, I know. What do we do with Castillo’s 4 million/per. Well, this is the Wilpons’ chance to show us that they really want to win. At all costs.
Maybe admit the mistake, like the Yanks did with Pavano and so many others in the past.
Come on Castillo’s offense will be fine. You have to have a couple of just get on base guys. As bad as he has been he is still in our top 4 in OBP.
Come on lets use some logic here, who are you Steve Phillips? Lets make some realistic suggestions, the O’s wanted 4 guys from the Cubs for Roberts what makes u think they are gonna want 2 “hot” players from AA off the scrap heap of prospects that the Twins did not want from Santana.
Our farm system is awful, face it they will not be making any big name trades this year with prospects.
I say hit him #2 or #3. At least give him D. Wright behind him.
But #2 would work, as long as he is committed to running more. He used to hit #2 before he was on the Mets, and he was stealing bases, hitting Homeruns…where have you gone my old friend????
(1) Matt’s position is inconsistent with his argument that batting order is of limited importance.
(2) Matt may be right both times. Which is to say, some of Beltran’s struggles should be blamed on pitchers happy to walk him to face a horrendous Carlos Delgado, and some not. With two out or with men on base, the incentive to walk Beltran is not the same (really is going to depend on the situation) and he isn’t hitting there.
Instead, much of the problem is that this is Beltran being Beltran, a hitter who is uncommonly streaky. A slight depression in his normal levels will look horrible. A lot of hitters look pedestrian when you take out their best two or three weeks of the year, but Beltran is an extreme case. You can’t look at him as a typical 30 HR, 100 RBI player, because for much of the year, he’s anything but. For a few weeks each year, he’s a monster, however.
That’s really only been that way since last season. His career averages by month starting in April are
.271, .271, .275, .276, .299, .281, .301. OPS .825, .810, .828, .857, .930, .843, .903.
If any thing it shows he likes hot weather or it takes him a while to get going.
Hmmm. I’d really prefer to see it broken down by week, but wouldn’t ask anyone to do that. Month-to-month is kind of arbitrary. That said, it does look like the numbers aren’t supporting me. I think he may just be a warm-weather guy.
To look at numbers like this is crazy. The difference between .275 and .295 is probably around 4 or 5 hits in a month….besides, Beltran is not a career .300 hitter, so his BA is really irrelevant. He’s thrived on driving in the runs when there’s runs to be driven in, and simply put, this year he hasn’t come through. May be it’s just a slow start, may be it’s Delgado batting behind him, but to be hitting .167 with runners on base is not Beltran-like in any month… I couldn’t care less what he does with no one on base – he could be hitting .100, but when you got guys on, you gotta make things happen, and part of that is putting the ball in play. He’s been striking out way too much this year…
Whoa — also, those are career averages. Why would he be expected to get hot at the same time every year? You have to look at each year.
true, however he consistantly gets hot at about the same time each year.
Yes. It looks like there’s a general trend toward the hotter months, but if he has his torrid streaks in June and August one year and May and September the next . . . well, you get the picture. The averages flatten it and disguise the “streakitude.”
Maybe looking at the pre and post allstar break numbers will help.
.270 with a .815 OPS pre
.291 with a .892 OPS post.
That’s a huge difference over the course of a career.
OK, that tells you that his numbers tend to be better in the second half, but doesn’t really say much, if anything, regarding how his hits are clustered week-to-week, except to say that if he’s getting most of his hits in hot streaks, the streaks are more likely to show up post-ASB.
What are his October numbers like? :-)
Maybe the thing to do is switch Beltran and Wright, hitting Wright 4 and Beltran 3. We know already that Wright can handle hitting in front of a less than stellar hitter, as he’s had success out of the 8 spot in his career. And we know from 2005 that Beltran needs the protection that Wright can offer.
How is this different from hitting Beltran 2 and Wright 3? It isn’t really, except that it keeps our lineup from getting too top heavy which isn’t a huge concern but it’s something. There’s just one more guy to get on base in front of those two, and assuming this works and Beltran starts to hit again, that’s something we’re gonna want.
Also, I know Beltran’s career numbers in the 3 spot are worse than 2 or 4, but I don’t really think that means all that much. Who’s hitting behind him matters more than the arbitrary number of his spot in the order.
I realize it’s tough to swallow hard and accept that Willie may have been right, but how about just putting Castillo at no. 2 and Church between Beltran and Alou? The top five would be the same lineup we saw against the Dodgers Wednesday. It may be that Church should return to the two spot for now, but unless he and Reyes continue to be torrid up there, the lineup may actually be better served by putting Church in Delgado’s spot and bumping Delgado to what would be Schneider’s spot (and Schneider to 8th. You get the picture.) We have a hot hitting left handed bat to put behind Beltran. It’s just not Delgado.
I think at this point with Reyes and Castillo not getting on base as much as they should you have to have a high OBP guy in the #1 or #2 spot. Beltran through all of his struggles is still #3 in OBP on our team.
That’s a good point. It’s a tradeoff. You might still see some improvement out of Castillo.
You are right but I don’t think he HAS to have protection. Castillo will get on base from the 2 or 8 spot. Now when Beltran is hitting and producing RBI’s Castillo should be in the 2 spot.
Even as bad as Castillo has been he is still getting on base at a decent rate.
I think Castillo has to bat 2nd. Schneider, Castillo, Pitcher is just a black hole for a struggling offense.
Castillo batting 2nd lengthens the lineup….as much as I hate him.
In the long run you are right but if moving Beltran to the 2 spot will get him going I am all for trying it.
Thinking about the all BS I am hearing about how the DBacks are on the rise and destined for glory and the latest I have heard…that the road to the World Series must go through Arizona….has gotten me thinking about the type of lineup they have and how much youth they have sprinkled in there.
We could really use an infusion of youth next season at both 1b and LF. Adding two reliable healthy young and productive pieces to those spots would unmeasureable to the feeling of the team.
I do not want to get thinking too much about next season when this one is still so young and the possibilities this year are still terrific…but
If we could procure a guy like Tex for 1b that really would suit the team so well and could provide flexibility to the lineup and really lengthen our string of hitters.
Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Texiera, Church would be one hell of a top 6 to the order. (4 switch hitters in the top 6)
Then a young Fmart gaining experience and Schneider followed by the pitcher would be a decline but not god awful end to a NL lineup
1 big 1b bat in Tex makes so much sense
We would certainly rival the big 3 Phillies guys in Howard, Utley and Rollins with our Tex, Wright and Reyes. Plus we would still have Beltran and a developing Church to add to the mix. I see Church for us as something like Rowand was for them last year. Solid and pretty good numbers
Unfortunatley we would not have the money to persue the pitching to replace Perez and Pedro. I would love to have Tex but I think that considering our farm system we would be better off to get more pitching and hope that some of the FMart, Carp etc. work out.
or we could focus on spending the money (albeit wisely) on vastly upgrading the offense and defense. Texeira is one of those players. We’ve spent tons of dough recently on the pitching, and have not much to show for it. I think the old addage pitching is everything doesn’t really hold true until the playoffs – you need to get there first. I will take our chances with Santana and Maine as our 1,2 in a playoff scenario, with someone capable being the number three. I refuse to accept we lack the financial resources to sign Tex and not keep one of Perez or Pedro (preferably Pedro for 1-2 yrs)
We have not spent that much money on starting pitching lately. Johan being the exception. Pedro was a while ago. Maine is cheap, Perez has been cheap. When Perez and Pedro come off the books next year, who do you plan on replacing them with?
Besides a #3 will cost around 12 million a year. I know the Mets have a ton of money but I don’t think Wilpon will pay the luxury tax. So we are still kinda on a budget and 22-25 million a year for 1st base when we have to replace 2 SP, LF and 1B is not spending our money wisely.
I would much rather see a rotation of
Santana, Maine, Garland, Sheets, Pelfrey and fill in LF or 1B with league average players. Especially considering our best prospects with hopes of playing soon are FMart and Carp.
Not for nothing but there is big money coming off the books at 1b, LF, and 3 starting pitchers
Perez – $6M
Pedro – $12M
Duque – $6M
Delgado – $14 – $16M (unsure exactly)
Alou – $6M
Add that up and you get about $45M coming off the books.
Certainly guys will get raises and still others will be left off the team but assume $40M comes off and we need 2 big time players.
Tex may cost $18 – $20M
Pedro could resign for $10M
Perez could resign for $12M or we could not resign either Pedro or Perez and go with a rotation of
Santana, Maine, Pelfrey…….plus
Sabathia – $18 – $20M maybe a Sheets at $15M or John garland type at $14M
then add a figueroa or a Vargas type to end the rotation or stick in the lefty at AA they like Niese?
Either way….we certainly have enough money for Tex and either resigning one of our own pitchers in Pedro or Perez or doubling down on the next big pitcher and keeping the payroll somewhere close while starting Carp or Fmart in the outfield
Jon Garland, if he’ll take a three year deal. Other possibilities – Jason Jennings, Derek Lowe, Mark Prior. Depending on the development of Pelfrey (i.e. if he is a capable third/fourth starter) then you can slot in Niese as the 5th starter.
With the way we play in Arizona….I am absolutely fine with the road going through Chase Field.
Honestly, I don’t think the move will help him. He’s been striking out ALOT more on breaking pitches the last two years. He used to be a first pitch hitter, but now he always takes the first pitch. It almost seems as if he is looking for the walk, rather than swinging at pitches he would normally crush. Over the first month I’ve seen him take a number of belt high fastballs over the plate, which he would normally knock out of the park. He needs to go back to his old approach and stop taking so many pitches.
I agree. Beltran simply looks bad….Taking way too many pitches and he seems content with the walks. The team is batting something like .150 with RISP and two outs but We have our clean up hitter taking walks.
Which is why you may want to move him to #2 as his OBP is not slipping that much. He will see more FB and less breaking balls as well. A walk in the 2 spot is much more productive than a walk in the cleanup spot.
Beltran got robbed twice on Wednesday. His LD% this year is 23.6.
He’ll be fine.
lethal dose?
No, line drives. I get it. If he’s hitting the ball hard, he’s hitting the ball hard. His last couple games have been decent, too/
Beltran is going to be absolutely fine.
He had practically no spring training and will hit his stride sooner or later. He’s going to give us .265/32/110. Does anyone really doubt this?
And the longer he waits to turn it on, the more productive, impressive, and enjoyable will that time be for us all to witness.
It is also very possible that he is unlucky so far. From what I’ve seen he’s been hitting the ball hard, just not to the right places. At the 2nd game of the Brewers at Shea, Wright was on 2nd, and Beltran hit a bullet, but right at the SS who was playing close to hold Wright on 2nd. No one on base, that’s a double, man on 1st, that’s an RBI.
That’s basically what I’m saying – that he’s really really unlucky thus far. His BABIP is .268 (which is far below average) and his LD% is 23.6 (which is really really good). Something’s got to give.
YOU KNOW WHAT???? spin it any way you want…
not fully healthy….no pitches to hit…
IT’S ALL BS.
Why does ALBERT PUJOLS ever get a pitch to hit????
WHY did MIKE PIAZZA ever get a pitch to hit????
He is too FINICKY up there. HE is FINICKY like a teenage GIRL.
He is not getting the job done.
WIDEN YOUR ZONE DUMMY! go up there like you WANT to get a HIT!
If you look through the anger, king makes a good point. He is being too picky on pitches. You can’t pass up pitches because its 1-1, or 1-0. If you have a pitch to hit, swing.
I could see the Braves trading Teixera at the deadline, depending on positioning in the division. I could also see the Yankees trading some value to get him (Hughes) and immediately dropping whatever the asking price was….maybe thowing more money per year rather than the years.
Hughes for Tex would be a great deal for both teams. A little pricey for a rental but if that locked up Tex for them I think they would do it. I hope not because I want the Braves to continue to struggle for SP.
Thats what I was thinking on the win/win situation. I can’t help but think there was a bigger reason for Cashman hanging on to the prospects last offseason and not trading them for Santana. I just think he was holding off for the slugger…typical AL mentality.
With the Braves pitching woes and the fact that their offense is strong enough you could see a trade like that happening now. Especially if the Yanks find a pitcher to fill in this season.
how do you see that NOW? Especially after the Braves just won 6 in a row and will likely be in contention all year.
he is CARLOS BELTRAN. he will be fine. there is obviously something bad in the mets water right now. soon everything will striaghten out. they are too good to be this dull. perhaps they are saving it all for a special time in the tenth month of the year.
Is that when Willie will finally be fired?
KIDDING
i surely hope so.
Beltran is hitting the ball consistently harder than anyone on this team. He’s just hitting it at people. Lines drives people!
and the walks area a testament to the fact that he is seeing the ball great.
people make way to many excuses for beltran and his streakyness and anti clutch….
no portection
knee hurts
ribs hurt
ass hurts
knee hurts
fans booing
he’s emotionally soft
knees hurt
change of leagues
delgados fault
Here’s your anticlutch, the stat that does not exist. Here is my stats that do
Beltran for his career
Runners On. .902 OPS
RISP .917
Bases loaded .970
All ABOVE his career averages. Looks like if clutch existed then he would be uh… clutch.
Well done “thereal” well done. By the way, your screenname is too damn long.
But yeah, I am impressed that Beltran’s fielding has been soo solid seeing that he is just months away from a knee operation. Its sad that only the people in KC were able to see a healthy Beltran. I would love to see what he could do if he was completely healthy.
If someone had not taken my screen name (since 86) when Matt switched sites it would not be :)
Excellent point.
0 for 19 with 2 outs RISP is still 0 for 19 with 2 outs and RISP.
Call it clutch…call it something else. It still exists.
Yes he is in a definte slump this season, I don’t expect it to be that way all season. If so we would be in trouble.
He’s not hitting either way. If he had 40 AB’s it would most likely be right at his current average which is terrible.
either way, that is a mindboggling horrible stat.
i have no idea what the cause is, b/c it’s 100 different things. But it is still horrible.
You forgot to add that his Mole is throwing off his balance, and the dye from his “frosted tips” is leaking into his brain
i cant figure out why he dosent get that removed
A closer look at the hitting, if you qualify the AB’s for the team (meaning a guy like Schnieder does not have enough AB’s) Church is hitting .328 and the next closest guy is Wright with .262 followed by Reyes with .254..
Another look our OBP is ranked 6th while our BA is ranked 12th in the NL.
When do we start to look at Hojo? Has he preached being so patient at the plate or something else that might be to blame for our increase in OBP but completely horrible BA?
True. And word got out that the way to handle the Mets is with tepid junk.
If I was an opposing pitcher I would just throw tepid junk at this mets lineup all day watch reyes, beltran, delgado and even wright whiff and go 0 for 4 and swing at pitches in the dirt. They suck at hitting off speed pitches…Unfortunately, lately they have all been missing fastballs too….and delgado can’t get around on the heat…..
How many times are we going to keep changing hitting coaches? Frankly, I think HoJo is one of the few guys on this coaching staff that shouldn’t be on notice right now.
Didn’t HOJO put in a lot of work with Church this spring to help him out of his slump?
Yes but there has to be a reason that our team batting average is .250 and our next closest guy to Church is hitting .262.
Why does he get a pass? If a team is not hitting who should you get rid of? I love Hojo but there is something going on with our bats.
Why are people so obsessed with batting average by the way, yes it seems alarming that it is so low, but haven’t we agreed that BA is no longer the end all be all to judge a player. Maybe this was the case when all you did was read Box scores in the Newspaper.
OBP, Slugging and OPS are what they measure players by nowadays. Yes his average is low but his OBP is .363, he will be fine.
Now take a look at a guy like Robinson Cano, and Yankee fans should really be worried. Not only is he not getting hits (.172 avg) but he can’t get on base either (.226 OBP). Wasn’t this the guy yankees fans were anointing as the next BA champion in the AL?
While OBP is very good, eventually you have to get hits when guys are in scoring position. The pitcher will not normally walk the bases loaded and continually walk in runs. So BA is still important to an extent.
please . clutch dont exsist…… ever hear of reggie jackson…..
tell me his met moment…? wheres all the game winning hr’s ….
wheres all the game winning hits……?
Statistically speaking, clucth does not exsist. RISP comes close. Since when did Mets fans ever start refering to certain moment as “Mets moments”. That sounds like Yankee speak to to me?
Reggie Jackson, hmmm, is he that HOF guy that had pretty good numbers across the board?
Also the guy that hit .263 with RISP? That’s one point above his career average. The defintion of CLUTCH. Or is it the guy that batted .254 for his career in September/October?
It is hard to believe but over the course of a career, clutch does NOT exist.
Reginald Martinez Jackson (born May 18, 1946), nicknamed “Mr. October” for his clutch hitting in the postseason, is an American former Major League Baseball right fielder who played for five different teams from 1967 to 1987. He won three consecutive World Series titles as a member of the Oakland A’s in the early 1970s and also won 2 consecutive titles with the New York Yankees. He was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1993.
i know……… wikipedia ’s got nothing on you…. better call em up……….
The lack of protection is a lame argument IMO. Its been over a month, he needs to adjust. Plenty of guys are able to still put up big numbers without help from guys behind them.
And Wright has walked a ton too. Does that mean they are pitching around him to get to Beltran and then pitching around Beltran to get to whoever is hitting behind him?
Maybe not lame, but definitely overstated.
I would still like to see Beltran bat 3 and wright 4 for a while, like someone posted previously. I didn’t like it in 06 but delgado was a different player.
reyes
castillo
beltran
wright
church
alou
delgado
schnieder
But, delgado will NEVER bat 7th on this team no matter how poorly he hits so I know I can just forget it.
We said the same thing about him hitting 6th, I think we will see him 7th this season.
some of you guys with these useless #’s , to fool yourself your eyes aint seeing what they’re seeing…
Baseball is a game of numbers. If they did not matter, we would not keep them.
People who say that are actually lying to themselves. Numbers are numbers they are much more measurable than your eyes.
With that logic…if you lock someone in a room for the past 20 years and feed him every existing stat on the mets over that time period, but don’t allow him to watch a single game, he would know more about ‘measuring’ the mets than the guy who invests his money and time into season tickets, visiting Metsblog, and watching SNY over that same time period.
ok. makes sense.
No it takes both but because we are so emotionally attached to the game we remember some things more than others. We remember the games Wagner blow more than the normal ones he saves. That’s a normal fan.
If that guy just looks at the games he goes to and never looks at averages then yes the locked up guy would know more.
Emotions play a factor with the fans. You know what?..it does for players as well. And that is the intangible component to clutch. You can’t go to BaseballReference.com to measure what a guy is thinking, feeling, and how he act differently in a clutch situation. You can only measure outcomes. And clutch is more than that. Clutch is about how you approach the situation and handle the emotions and pressure of a key moment. It’s confidence, which Bill James cannot measure. So, hence, it’s irrelevant according to him. That’s crap. These are not robots, they are human beings. And we judge on what we perceive on the humanistic side as well as what shows up on the stat sheet.
Beltran is 0-19 with 2 outs RISP. What if I told you that he lined out hard all 19 of those times? OK…now what if he K’d on 3 pitches looking all 19 of those times. You’de think differently about Beltran, wouldn’t you? But the stats tell you he failed, and that’s it. Black and White. That’s shallow and not an accurate assesment. But that is what your logic concludes.
The inability to accurately measure something doesn’t mean it fails to exist.
as for your second point…..that is such a crock of s***.
As a coach I know that some players perform better under pressure than others. However, believe it or not those are the uh… good players. They are going to perform either way. The nonclutch arguement is that over the course of time a players numbers will be right back where they always are given enough AB’s, freethrows, fg’s whatever.
Beltran’s 0/19 would be near his current average with what 3 hits? He is struggling right now, period not just with RISP.
That’s like saying he is 8/28 with the game tied. He must really love hitting when the game is tied.
As for my point about the stat guy in a room, a lot of people on here say that Rollins is clutch. How do they know that? Do they go to all the games?
you lost me on that 8/28 comment. where is that comign from.
Beltran this season is 8/28 with the game tied. Obviously that means nothing. Right now he is struggling and all of this stats given enough plate appearances would be about a horrible .218.
I don’t have a general opinion on Rollins being clutch. I haven’t seen him enough in those situations. I perhaps remember 10 times or so where he was clutch, but I won’t generalize him on that. Others here will take that, or even fewer instances, and claim the guy is clutch. That’s stupid and I understand your issue with that mindset.
How do you explain some great players who perform WORSE in clutch (lack of a better term) situations compared to their career averages? I don’t know who they are, but I’m quite sure they exist. Fact is, you can’t explain it. That’s the beauty of baseball. Something Bill James cares less about. To each his own, but that’s really shallow.
I like your point about having your best player up in the most critical situation. It’s true, and who wouldn’t that most of the time? But I’m pretty sure about one thing. If you have 2 outs and the bases loaded down 2 runs late int eh ballgame, and you can choose between Beltran, Wright, Alou, or Pat Tabler. You will choose Tabler each time. And he’s the 4th best player of those 4.
Honestly I would still pick Alou, I just think he is a better hitter.
As for your guy that has career numbers with RISP that are dramatically lower over the course of a career is hard to find. Believe me as a coach this was incredibly hard for me to believe until I did a lot of research on it. I still say like I said before that some players do very well in the clutch but usually they are players who are good to start with. If you take a guy that has a .215 BA and a .400 BA with RISP then I can almost bet that he is due for an incredible cold streak.
Thank you — Danny1986 finally states what I’ve been pining for someone else to write. Just because you can’t measure it reliably doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Essentially, across a career’s worth of data, it’s very, very hard to define “clutch” situationally. You have to look at a lot of variables. Some players have it, some don’t. Whether for major leaguers, over a career, it tends to even out is also complicated by the fact that a player can become more confident over the years.
But that does not explain how a player like Beltran can hit 8 HR in one postseason and then stink the next and then hit right at his career averages the next.
Sure. He signed a big contract.
Beltran also has an extremely high Line Drive % to go with his extremely low BA. In other words he’s been unlucky. The ball has been rocketing off his bat, it’s just always right at somebody.
yeah your right .. jimmy rollins isnt clutch .. theres no such thing as a clutch hit….. no such thing as a guy who rises to the occasion ….. guys who love the spotlight…… youre right they dont exsist…..
just stats like how many hotdogs consessions sold……
and sorry almost dont count…….. you can hit line drives all year ,unless they drop in therye outs….. no matter what your #’s say…
Jimmy Rollins career 2 outs RISP .253. 30 points below his career average. CLUTCH.
Hey, the Mets just won a series from the Diamondbacks. THEY are the force to be reckoned with!
the myth is that risp with 2 outs is the measure of clutch…
how about game winning hits
how about big hits that start rallies late
stolen bases that lead to gwr..
how about walk off hr’s ..
how about game tying hr’s..
kiet and gary werent clutch … your eyes lied…
Go find how many game winning hits Rollins has.
Go to baseball reference and look at his stats when the team is down.
Look it took me a while to believe it too but over the course of a career all stats seem to break right back to their norm. So while a guy may get a gwh the next 2+ times he strikes out. Does that make him clutch or unclutch.
Good players are good players they are going to come through with big hits.
nice spin attempt…… your only stat you could produce was he dosent get a game wi9nning hit every night…
what a joke…..
so how many beltrans got to rollins…….
that sthe problem ….. rollins hits a few every so often….
beltran never does………
Tell me how many game winning hits Rollis has? Compare that to Beltran.
How about this order:
1. Reyes
2. Church
3. Wright
4. Alou
5. Reyes (DH for Beltran)
6. Church (DH for Delgado)
7. Reyes (DH for Castillo)
8. Wright (DH for Schneider)
9. Santana
It works well with the rotation of Santana, Johan Santana, J. Santana, Johan Santana, and Santana.
I think the last two guys on this team that we have to worry about are Beltran and Wright. The thing with Beltran is when he gets hot he can carry a team. I have a funny feeling that he and Wright are going to get hot starting tonight. If these two guys get hot at the same time we can go at least 6-1 on this homestand.
beltran never carried nothing….. but he bags to the airport after not showing up in the big spot…….. cept for the astro’s…
Again, Beltran has a career BA of .366 and an OPS of 1.302 in the playoffs.
yeah all with houston…. hasnt done jack s–t for the mets in the playoffs or leading up to em….
Career for the Mets in the playoffs is still at or above his career averages. Try again.
your tellin me beltran had a good playoff for the mets ????
You really can’t look at stats can you? You just remember the K to end the game.
I never said he had a good playoff, I said it was RIGHT AT HIS CAREER AVERAGES.
Playoffs with the Mets: .278 with an OBP of .422
Career stats : .279 with .355 OBP.
What about this can you not understand?
you need to lay off Beltran. First off, you are not stating of implying accurate things about the guy. Take away the image fo the bat on his shoulder on Game7, and what else do you have to your argument?
He’s going to be fine.
nl champ .series stats….
hr rbi avg slg.
2004 stros- 4 5 417 958
05 mets- 3 4 296 667
div series hr rbi avg slg sb tb h
04- 4 9 455 .1.091 2 24 10
05 – 0 1 222 222 1 2 2
cumulative post season
g hr rbi tb sb obp slg avg
04 12 8 14 47 6 536 1.022 435
05 10 3 5 20 2 422 556 278
sorry bro your embarrassing yourself ……. please stop….. my computer works too …. i can find all the #’s i need…. liar…
What did you prove with that junk?
How did I lie, you are impossible. How old are you?
LOOK AT HIS PLAYOFF NUMBERS FOR THE METS THEY ARE RIGHT AT HIS CAREER AVERAGES EXCEPT HIS OBP IS HIGHER.
Playoffs with the Mets: .278 with an OBP of .422
Career stats : .279 with .355 OBP.
i’d take a winner like rowand in center any day over , overated belbore…….
and i’d win with him too…….
Talk about embarassing yourself.
The same Rowand that has a career batting average of .227 in the playoffs and had a great .083 last season.
Give up on your hate on Beltran.
let me see it … pick the team up put em on your back and carry em for a while…….. ……. talk is cheap……….
what i proved is he’s done nothing for the mets in the playoffs…..
you said he did….. by comparing his career #’s to his 10 met playoff games…….
and i’m discussing CLUTCH performances……. in the playoffs and your playin smoke and mirror games with completey useless stats that have no bareing….
i showed you a sample of him being CLUTCH in the playoffs compared to nothing in the playoffs as a met………
spinner……….
mmkay……………………….. i dont get paid to think for ya …baller…
I don’t have to respond to you anymore. You lost all credit when you said you wanted Aaron Rowand over Beltran because Beltran is overrated. LOL.
As for your useless stats, I have stated the entire time that a players career numbers will eventually match their “clutch” numbers and I have proven that over and over to you.
Beltran’s numbers in the playoffs for the Mets are right at his career averages. How can you disprove that?
point on rowand……………
you can win a ws …. without a 119 mil dollar slug…… who never shows up in the big game……. constantly rates himself in %, and has no heart…….a big mouth but not much to back it…..
and i dont have to respond to you and your useless #’s that dont translate to wins or jack s–t but a decent looking back of a bubble gum card…….besides i’m growing bored of shredding ya…
LOL, maybe we can take a vote on this one?
I think you have to be 18 years old or less.
Anyway, you have made it fun I guess.
you keep talkin career #’s .. who cares…… have one clutch year , win a world series….. and your clutch for life……
for example ..i’d take ray knight and his one clutch october… over all softee’s career #’s and nothing in the big spot…………
i could careless , about career compilers…. only about winning seasons….
Yet you want Aaron Rowand.
Again, lets take that vote on who one this debate. I am ready for the election.
you musta been a big dave kingman fan……….
Nope but he prob. does have better career numbers than Rowand.
40 ……….. and on board since 72′………………..
difference between me and you…. is your a loser you except the losing as a badge of honor…. the loveable loserss and they’re wait till next year mantra…….. you like sniffing jocks and worshipping heros……
me .. i’m tired of the losing…… it isnt a badge of honor…. it’s boring…… i love the mets , the logo … the team….. the players they come and go …… i could careless to sniff they’re under performing over paid jock…..
me – i want to win…
you – want to break out the pom p[oms and cheerlead….
And you gathered that by me saying that Beltran is what he is a .278 hitter with a decent OBP?
Man.
Again a post like you just did is really strange and embarrasses yourself badly.
Don’t you think that everyone on this site (that is a Met’s fan) wants the Mets to win? Why would they be on here if they did not? I want to win this year and still have HOPE that we can while you in turn are HOPELESS.
The difference between you and I is pretty clear.
and rowand has a ring ……
kingman has nothing…………
Poor Dan Marino. I guess Johan must suck too. Maybe we should trade him for Tim Wakfield, he’s got rings.
hopeless………………. hell no ……. just honest……………
look i didnt say beltran sucks, trade him , cant win with him…..
i’m sayin it’s time …… time to step up and back your words … and be the consistant player we ALL know he is………..
i dont think you want to lose ….. just …you accept it……(as have we all for many years)…
but willie said this was different .. the carlo’s are hungry ..and lessons learned…
FOR THIS PARTICULAR group.. yes patience has run out…..
but i’m with ya every single game …. hoping and praying beltran proves me wrong….
AND I ‘ll BE THE FIRST guy here to stand up and say “i was wrong “..
as for you…. i figured there was some god natured ribbing involved , between both of us.. i realize we all want to win…….. and i’d have a beer and a laugh with anyone here……
we dont get paid…
Come on now, you know you just don’t like Beltran. You can’t spew that much hate at a player and then say you don’t. He is a fine player. I am not debating that he does not need to step up, I am just saying that law of averages says that he has to. He won’t continue to hit .218 all season and to get back to his normal numbers he is going to have to have one of his also normal big second halves.
As for your point on Beltran in the playoffs for us, I will still stand by my comment that he performed as expect based on his career numbers. That’s not “clutch” it’s just normal.
For every Reggie Jackson HR in the post season he struckout 4 times. He was a great player and I think he is “clutch” but his numbers show he was just his normal self in the playoffs.
johan isnt retired………… yet
if your saying would i take jeff hosteler and a super bowl win…over marino and his hof stats….. yep anyday………. forever hoss has a ring danny dont…….
……. like i said i aint a hero worshipping ,jock sniffer…
Is Beltran or Rowand retired? You are basically saying you would rather have Rowand than Beltran because he has rings. Then you say my arguement about Wakefield over Johan does not exist?
By the way, I am getting close but have I insulted you yet?
i’d take bobby ojeda over johan…… as of now…
Wow, this is entertaining. Two guys from two different planets. John, please take a pill. The truth is no one likes loosing. But it is a fact that we can not win every year. 86 is stating facts while you are throwing emotions. Nothing wrong with either until you start shredding a fellow fan.
This is kinda fun though. Usually on here when one fan clearly gets the other hand the other one shuts up, but he just keeps going.
ummmmmm they got cute first……
btw.. i’ve been called assh—le , moron , and jerk off , among others here…. make sure you play fan police all the time……
Badge of honor?
your right …. i dont like beltran as a player…. never did……. but i’m waiting to be won over……..
I hope the next HR that Beltran hits that in the post game he says “And this one goes out to Johnfromflushing. I hope he gets to feeling better.”
I am sure he goes to bat each time with you on his mind.
LOL>
now come on you know your taking that out of context….
but of course he dont give a sh–t about the fans the 119 mil is guaranteed..
The same fans that booed him opening day after an incredible 2006 season?
And why on earth can you take everything out of context yet I nail you with something and you whine about it not being fair?
because you nailed nothing .. your being stupid…. does beltran no any fans alive..?
does he hit for the team or the fans ?
and are fans not won over buy ,play on the field… or just wearing the uni….
hammerd sucka…………
What did you even say? You really did go to Miami. Is that prison lingo you are using?
no no…… i’m not sayin i want rowand…. i’m saying you dont need a 119 mil superstar to win……
Ok you have got to stop, you can’t even remember what you said.
“i’d take a winner like rowand in center any day over , overated belbore…….”
This debate should be over, are you actually Hillary Clinton?
thats how i made it to play for miami u…. i’m relentless …..
Gotta do this one can’t help it.
If you played for Miami, are you currently in prision? That’s what the stats show and you know I am a stat guy.
i used rowand as the example of the type… i like…..
dosent have to be him … theres others …….. but he’d do….
oh i’m not backing away from that…. no way …
as of now beltran wears a mets uni…… so i’ll root for him ..
but i’d shed no tears if he goes bye bye,…
“i’d take a winner like rowand in center any day over , overated belbore…….”
“no no…… i’m not sayin i want rowand…. ”
“dosent have to be him … theres others …….. but he’d do….”
“oh i’m not backing away from that…. no way …”
Oh Hillary, which one is it? You can’t seem to make up your mind.
no i’m not in prison……. and that was funny……….lol
we were not criminals in pads……… yet…….
“like rowand “…………… “not i ‘ll take rowand”
Hillary, you said “but he’d do”
Thus that means that you would take Rowand over Beltran.
Answer the question, would you rather have Rowand over Beltran?
right ….
LOL, and now back to our sponsers. As you run away to your private jet and ask you team how to fix that one.
what dont you understand barrack….?
Actually I figured that being you are using prison lingo and went to Miami you would be for Obama. Ok that’s cold, I draw the line on that one myself.
yes i like rowand beter……
Are you sure?
“no no…… i’m not sayin i want rowand…. ”
well lets be realitic ….. how am i gettin rowand … in may.? or any comparable centerfielder….. anyone who knows anything knows beltran aint going nowhere.
in fantasy …. yes i want rowand now…
in reality …. i know beltrans what i got…… and that aint changing….
so if you were trying to bait me into make some riddiculous trade statement …. i wont…..
but if i had a magic wand……… bye bye softee………..
prison lingo <<<<<<<
it’s a message board not school….. but you are funny…..
mc cain………..if you need to know..
Me too but only because I could not vote for Hillary or Obama.
Gotta go, but it’s been fun. I will wait on the election returns and your congrats phone call before I give my victory speech.
and yes i’m the worst speller and typer you’ll see…
like i said bro……………… i’ll be the first to come here and look you up and apologize to YOU and beltran , when he proves me wrong and we go to the ws…….. i promise….
if your waiting for a phone call from me, saying something nice about hillary…… DONT … it wont happen….
Clutch hitter
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A clutch hitter is a baseball player with a knack for coming up with the “big” hit. The big hit is typically a game-deciding hit, sometimes a home run, often coming with two outs. Being known as a clutch hitter is a position of high honor and responsibility, as the clutch hitter is recognized as the “go-to guy” for the team, and his exploits in pressure situations are celebrated by both fans and players alike.
[edit] Famous clutch hits
home f—-n run………………..
There is no one and I repeat no one in the Mets lineup that strikes fear in an opposing pitcher. Roberto Clemente stated that when he was in a slump he made sure that he would take at least 3 swings every at bat, rarely would he let a pitch go over the plate and that is how he would slug his way out of slump. These pathetic palooka’s just stand ther with the bat on their shoulders looking at strike three!