Much of the media attention regarding the Mets’ recent struggles has been directed toward Willie Randolph.
In Newsday, Jim Baumbach writes:
“Today, for the first time, you can say it for real. Randolph’s job has to be in jeopardy.”
Bart Hubbuch starts his column in the New York Post as follows:
“There are losses, and then there are soul-crushing nightmares that send teams spiraling and get managers fired. “
And finally, Joel Sherman at the Post pens:
“He is presiding over unease in the clubhouse, sloppiness on the field and what sure plays publicly as too much indifference by too many players.”
On a side note, Adam Rubin at the Daily News reports that Rockies manager Clint Hurdle has already invited Willie to be part of the coaching staff at the All-Star game on July 15th at Yankee Stadium.
…i have to say, the media is justified with their scrutiny…things certainly have gotten out of hand in a hurry, and although the sky isn’t falling yet, it sure does seem like it will unless things get turned around in a hurry…
Click play below to watch Willie’s post-game comments.
{ 193 comments }
No, I think it’s high time the Mets actually get serious about this, Regis. We’ve been saying that there’s plenty of time to right the ship for . . .oh, a calendar year now? This didn’t sneak up on anyone. The chemistry is horrid, and right now, short of liquidating, the only thing they can do is shake things up by giving Willie his long overdue dismissal. The Wilpons seem impotent right now.
Ok guys….it can all be summed up in 2 words…FIRE WILLIE. I can write about a 10 page essay as to why. People on here have even suggested sarcastically that I write a book. Well, for those of you that choose to read some of them…please feel free to read below…if you have better things to do, just skip it…you get the idea…(I just need to vent)
excerpt from “I Trust My Guys: The Willie Randolph Managerial Experience” by NY Cuban
The Collapse
…so we all lived through what factually can be considered the worst collapse in baseball history. Some may say that argue that the Yankees losing a 3 game lead to the Red Sox was worse, but I beg to differ. This team lost a 7 game lead with 17 games to play. These games were not versus tough opponents, 13 of those games were versus the Marlins and Nationals. We stood by this team, game after game. And every post-game was the same. We heard how Willie trusts his guys. How this team needed to find a rhythm. How it was just one game. And game by game, the time dwindled. But it was all ok, because we heard about champagne and how great it would taste when they won the division. Well, Sept 30th came and went and we all know how that turned out. And then came October 1st and 2nd, and we waited and waited. We waited for the inevitable. Someone had to pay, and it obviously had to be Willie. Well, we were wrong. Omar came on and said that Willie was a winner and he would continue being manager of the Mets in 2008. And just like that, the organization that was on the right path took major steps back. It was like quick sand.
The Mets Go As Reyes Goes
…it is often said that the “Mets go how Jose Reyes goes”. Well, then, Willie deserves much of the blame for ruining young Reyes. Sure Reyes is a bit of a primadona; he deserves criticism. However, on July 7, 2007, the respect young Reyes had for Willie was erased. Reyes check swung at a pitch and grounded it down the third base line. Thinking it would roll foul, Reyes watched the ball stay fair and was easily thrown out at first. Willie was irate and subsequently benched Reyes. Reyes looked at Willie in disbelief, mostly because Beltran and Delgado were notorious for not running things out hard. This was a typical Willie doublestandard where he treated veterans and young players differently. Reyes never looked at Willie the same. He adopted a “who-cares” attitude and struggled for the remainder of Willie’s tenure. The “Mets go as Reyes goes”, which meant the Mets also subsequently struggled for the remainder of Willie’s tenure.
I Know My Team Better Than Anyone
…loss after loss, Willie was questioned about his managerial decisions. Interview after interview, Willie stood his ground that he knew his team better than anyone. For Met fans in the Willie era, there are names that sound like nails on a chalkboard. Think back to 2007. Now say the name Guillermo Mota. How about Scott Schoeneweis? Julio Franco? Night after night, Willie would go to them with some rationale about his gut guiding his decision making. Even after the Collapse, fast forward to 2008. Say the names Aaron Heilman or Jorge Sosa. How does that make a Met fan feel? Time after time, we saw these players fail. The fans knew way before the manager the outcome of the managerial move. Yet, Willie Randolph was steadfast. He was out to prove that he was smarter than the average Joe(…or was he.) …
Willie is not Lou Pinella
…over the course of his tenure, Willie Randolph was always hesitant to stand up for his players and risk ejection. Apparently he felt that his strategic superiority would be drastically missed and his absense would consequently hurt his team. It would be a fine assumption, but it was at the expense of the respect of his players. Willie’s players never got the sense that he was there to defend them. They could clearly have a case with the umpires and Willie would just blandly discuss the situation, nod his head and walk back to the dugout. Well, in a way, Willie did get through to his players; he instilled the same passive malaise that he portrayed in the dugout. By the end of his tenure, the team was a shell of itself, going through the motions game after game…
I Treat These Guys Like Men
…perhaps the biggest flaw in Willie Randolph’s managerial tactics was his refusal to deviate from his personality. During a 2 year span, the NY Mets went 74-75. In this time, Willie continued to affirm his notion that there was no reason to yell or call out his team. “I treat these guys like men” was repeated on multiple occasions. Well, that would actually be commendable if that approach worked for the players on his team. However, perhaps, there were players on the team who needed to be treated differently. Perhaps, Willie should have tried different approaches to find a fit that worked for his team’s personality. Instead, like many tragic figures, Willie was a victim of his own hubris. He expected all players to conform to HIS style and personality. Unfortunately, that conformity was never adopted and Willie continued to be steadfast in his ways…
The End of the Willie Experiment
…in 2005, after 14 interviews, Willie Randolph finally fulfilled his dream. He would be the manager of a New York baseball team; he would be the manager of the NY Mets. After just over 3 years, Willie Randolph was relieved from a nightmare. After being spared his job in 2007, the NY Mets floundered during the first quarter of a season in 2008. The Wilpons became increasingly anxious to see the Mets turn the ship around. After 2007, Willie lost the team’s confidence. Shortly after, the fans turned on him. Even the most ardent supporters could no longer find rationale to keep Willie. In May, after a horrid homestand, the Willie experiment was over…
Upon hiring a new manager, the Mets promptly went on a 5 game winning streak and found a new energy that had been missing since 2006. On the shoulders of Johan Santana, and a re-energized Jose Reyes, the NY Mets won the NL East and returned the NL pennant to Flushing…
I agree 99%. You can’t adopt a new persona. Willie is dull. His team reflects it
NYCuban … great stuff. I think you deserve a sip of champagne. I think if Willie and the whole staff get fired … I will have a sip of champagne too. After all … it’s still on ice from last September.
Like I said yesterday, it’s posts like this that keep me coming back every day…comedic and tragic at the same time…good job Cuban lol
#1 best seller
NyCuban…Great argument. I agree with the points you articulated. My question to you is…if Willie is gone after this weekend (of course the Mets have to lose two out of three or get swept, who do you see as his replacement? Will it be an interim manager or someone who can be their full time manager?
I would go with Mazz for a 2 year contract (this year, plus one). If not Mazz, then Carter or Oberkfell.
You can’t steal a manager from another team can you? I would throw a ton of money at Guillen. He is a perfect SHORT TERM solution for the sleep walking this team is in.
guillen is a clown
no way i want that guy near my team
good post otherwise
Not MAZ!!!!! He’s a moron! Obie.
GUILLEN?????!!!?!?!? Tell me you are joking. I don’t know that there is a worse manager in baseball. Does Brenly still have a job, because he might be worse.
If you are going to try to steal someone,steal Acta or Gonzalez (neither of which would happen). Oberkfell would be good. Backman would be better. Mazzilli might be ok, but I don’t know much about his style (I can’t saw I saw a lot of Oriole games).
Rudy Jaramillo? I don’t know anything about him, but I think you have to go outside the immediate organization to shake things up.
Jaramillo is certainly a better choice than either Mzailli or Guillen, but I don’t think he’s the guy to shake up the Mets. I like Oberkfell a lot, but I’m not sure he has the right personality, either.
Wally Backman. He knows NL ball, has a fiery personality, and, unlike Willie, has actually managed before.
I stopped reading after; Ok guys…..
hahaha…likewise
From your keyboard to Omar and the Wilpon’s ears.
Great writing but then again you have an advantage…Cuban genes ;)
The other Cuban American.
He’ll be gone within a month.
Enjoy L.A., Willie.
I know game strategy is overrated (I point that out myself) but there’s one situation that keeps coming up where Willie kills me.
8th inning, Mets down by one, Reyes leads off with a single and Castillo sacrifices. And I just want to scream: “NOOOOOO!”
This isn’t Delgado on first. This is an 80 stolen base guy, one of the premier base stealers in the game. STEAL. SECOND. Then bunt him to third where he can score on a sac fly. If they throw Reyes out and we lose, so be it. Better than losing because he’s on SECOND when the fly ball comes or – like yesterday – he takes a wild gamble in hopes of getting to third.
Yesterday was even worse than usual…. a 7-foot pitcher who takes forever to get rid of the ball and a catcher who can’t throw anyone out and we still don’t challenge. It’s scared, ultra-conservative baseball.
bunting with none out, runner on first, position player up is the wrong play at least 85% of the time. players who do this and managers who allow it hurt their teams.
This one is way out there, I heard it once before, but now there is just more evidence to me that something may be there….
Does anyone think that the team sucking since June of last year, and Reyes disappearing have anything to do with Julio Franco being cut.
I laughed at first b/c I wanted him gone, but Willie did not like his “managing” in the clubhouse. But Julio did seem to guide a lot of these players. You didnt hear LoDuca or Wagner complain about the lack of accountability until after Julio was gone.
Out there, but just a thought. I think Willie has to go, but maybe this is just more evidence that WIllie never had control of this clubhouse.
Julio Franco for Manager!!!
He’s retired, right? LOL!
well said ,ny cuban… excellent post..
Willie isn’t going anywhere though if they are 2.5 games behind in the loss column. Although it will be more by the all star break.
I think looking at the standings can be a tad misleading. If the Mets were 10 games over .500 and 2.5 games back, that would be one thing. But, to be ONE game over .500 after 39 games, that means two things:
1) The Mets are not much different than they were for the last four months last year: a .500 team.
2) The Division’s mediocrity is keeping the Mets in it.
you can’t be 2.5 games back in the loss column.
Yeah … that is the exact mentality that is the problem and has been the problem. The writing is on the wall. Why delay the inevitable? Why wait until it’s too late?
Nothing is going to change. The time to make changes on this whole coaching staff is/was September 2007.
They’ve already waited too long.
hear hear mikey…I wanted Willie gone at the end of last year too, but Mets chose to roll the dice and keep him. So I was like fine, he’s here, maybe the end of last year was just some awful fluke. Then we got Santana and things were looking up, but truth is, they continue to play listless baseball and this is looking more and more like the norm. It’s unacceptable. Get rid of Willie now and start over.
Yes agreed. Start over. And the sooner they do this the sooner they will see if Omar is a big part of the problem as well. Lets not be like the Knicks and wait until they are literally shoving crap down our throats.
Agreed. Most of the sentiment in the offseason was to give Willie two months, if the team was still the same fire him, and then if there is still no improvement, fire Omar at the end of the year.
Well, Willie’s two months are just about over…
Why not fire him now and give the new manager as much time to turn the ship around. Why wait until we are 10 games out and put the new guy in a hole? The goal is still to make the playoffs this year. And I think Willie’s firing is inevitable at this point….so, the sooner the better.
Exactly Cuban … I mean they ARE moving into a brand new stadium next year. How long can they really wait to get the correct personal in here? Time is running out.
It all went downhill when WAGNER TOOK THE MOUND IN THE ALLSTAR GAME …. after that the mets were never the same………
cause reyes was on fire at the all star game but wagner blew the game the mets never recovered …. fastfoward …. today …. still the same problem
post of the day
Huh?
2.5 games behind the Marlins. 1 game over .500. Watching this team play, its kinda weird that they have done that well.
it’s really more about the mediocrity in the league than it is about the mets doing well.
I was listening to Don Sutton on the pregame, and he made a few interesting points about programming your starting pitchers. Some guys still have a lot in the tank at 100 pitches because of weather conditions. A hot humid day and a guy may be drained at 80. Managers are lazy because they’ve taken the decision making process away from themselves. Maybe we need a new pitching coach.
I think we could be a Yankee sweep away….
If Ken Oberkfell gets scratched from the line-up on Sunday, then the end is near…
Fire Bernazard. That snake has his fingerprints all over this clubhouse mess.
Great post cuban!… post covers all bases. Wilpons if you are reading this… save your investment before its to late…
On a side note wonder what happens if Willy is gone before all-star game, does hurdle take back his invite…
Wow, that would be awkward, wouldn’t it…..
wishful thinking but If that happens he should wear Stankee pinstripes, i dont ever want to see him in a Met uniform ever again!
You guys are ridiculous!! Stop with the Willie Bashing.
I’d like to refute some of the claims NYCuban makes …
1) The collapse was not about Willie, it was about a systemic breakdown in the pitching, precipatated by the Mets not having a true #5 and sometimes a #4. The bullpen was overworked and it’s confidence took a beating in the process. Secondly, Joe Torre presided over that Yankee collapse, the same Joe Torre that won 4 championships. The truth is he’s a decent coach, but he had as much to do with collapse as he did in the pennants. It’s the players!!!
2) The Reyes – Willie affair … yesterday Shamsky or Kranepool talked about how Gil Hodges went out to LF to get Cleon Jones after he did not bust it to get a ball in the outfield. He went to LF!! And Gil won a championship in 69, because of that move .. No. because he had Seaver, Koosman, Ryan, Clendenon, etc. BTW, Jones batted about .340 that year.
3) You got me here, Willie should have brought in Joba or Rivera to pitch. Oh my bad, I forgot, we don’t have those guys!!! Willie can only bring in the guys he has and he can only bring in each of them just so many times. He didn’t sign these guys, Omar did, and Mota is doing well over in Milwaukee now, so go figure. U have to play with the players you got.
Do you guys see a pattern here?
4) I am a firm believer that managers getting thrown out is overrated, I would like to see the evidence that it makes you a winner. Bowa always got thrown out and now he’s Torre’s bench coach. That buffoonery is for the fan’s benefit not the players.
5) Finally, let’s remember that these are grown-ass men, who deserved to be treated like grown-ass men. If you f*k up your job, would you appreciate it if your boss treated like a child or worse an idiot? I don’t think so, and I don’t think it would make you a better worker either.
Willie has made some mistakes in judgement (like ALL managers do) and I think that sometimes a team responds better to a different voice, that’s why HoJo and the jacket MAY need to be shown the door.
But, in the end it’s the players, it always has been, and it always will be.
Brave man…
I once knew a man by the name of JSC1968…Great fellow…..
LOL!! They will never catch me, it’s me and Willie against the world.
hahaha i smell a randolph behind this post…
Well, I did have my nose up his butt.
I kid. I kid.
seriously lol…..
This guy has no idea the level of hatred NY Cuban has toward willie. If anything hes probably cooking something up right now……
LOL! Nah, just reading all the people around the different sources finally seeing the light…
I have been convinced. It’s not Willie’s fault. He trusts his guys, and we need to learn that it’s a marathon, not a sprint. We’ll just turn the page and go at it again to night. Willie feels in his gut that we’ll win tonight.
Can I have some more kool-aid, Willie….
or some of that champagne from last September’s clinching…
“It’s the players!!!”
I didn’t read after this but I agree 100%. Which is why I think firing Willie would be like putting a band-aid over a bullet wound. I think the organization as a whole needs to be evaluated. Starting with Omar.
But how can you correct that? You can’t fire the players. Sometimes, you can’t even trade them. And after seeing how well this team did in 2006, it shows they are obviously capable. So I’d be more inclined to think it’s the leadership, not so much the players.
You’d be wrong.
Very informative retort.
So mid-season we should gt rid of ll the players? Or we should have a wasted year, and see if next year Willie can do something with new players? No thanks. When the team has been this mediocre for so long, the only logical step i to fire the Manager, and see if a new skipper can get the players going. If not then, the overhaul can happen in the offseason.
hojo and the jacket? LOL
I agree while it may not be Willie’s fault, he has to go. He is on borrowed time because I don’t think this year’s team will ever be what most of us want it to be so why not try out a new manager for Citifield? I would also get rid of Hojo and the rest of the staff except Peterson for this season. I don’t want Peterson gone in the middle of the season, that could really mess up the pitchers. With Hojo, however, we could not really hit any worse?
i can take or leave hojo, but firing him and thinking that’s gonna make any difference is just insane.
I’d like to report I just got hit in the head with a piece of the sky. On it there was a note attached that read “fire Wilie.” Not sure if it’s a sign…
We need a poll of 5 likely successors to Willie Randolph. Will teams give us permission mid-season to talk to coaches?
Guys, careful on the Willie criticism….you might get banned from posting.
Dude, no.
I kid.
Willie has to take a hit here. His decisions on his players were untimely and unjust. He tends to give hot hitters a day off and that ruins a hot streak. That’s a stickler for me because on this team apparently you need to get guys “going”. I’ll say it again, he’s sucked the juice out of Reyes. No longer the same player after he was told to tone it down. He doesn’t know what’s right or wrong anymore. Leaders in the clubhouse need to step up. Mr Wright needs to come forward and stop being afraid of the veterans. He will be here longer than they will. He needs to bring this team together. Willie is a good guy but this team doesn’t want to play for him anymore. That’s the bottom line. When that is the case, you have to let him go. There are alternatives out there that I think should get a shot. Willie needs to sit down and learn from his mistakes. He can’t continue like this. This team will be 10 games under .500 soon enough and will the Mets do? They have a new stadium opening up next year. Do you want that same taste in your mouth next year? Something’s gotta give.
BTW, Regis….great work on the site. Good to have an added voice on here. I feel like I agree with you a lot more than Cerrone. Keep it up!
whats with the shots at cerrone??
Cerrone sold out! Get Him!!!! lol
Not a shot….more a compliment of Regis. I think Regis is more critical at times when the team deserves it, while Matt gives the team the benefit of the doubt more often than not. Matter of personal taste really.
Thanks for the compliment Biscuit, I’m just a spoke in the wheel here.
Will there be knicks fans in the bronx to start the chant: “fi-re wil-lie.”
I’m in favor of promoting Tueffel to the bigs.
Julio Franco for bench coach
Mike Piazza for Pitching Coach. I’ve always liked former catchers in this position
Where is Tueffel now?
What are some of the options available to replace willie?
Ken Oberkfell
Tim Tueffel
Gary Carter
Wally Backman
Julio Franco
I would think a number of coaches have out clauses should a managers position open up.
The Wilpons will never hire backman. To much of a checkered personal history.
can we have a managerial platoon of backman and teufel?
I have an idea why don’t we talk about the options to replace the Jacket?
Is Rockin Leo’ available?
Maybe we can get Tony Gwynn/ Keith Hernandez to be our hitting coach.
I wonder if Gywnn even wants to be a hitting coach?
I vote for Rudy from Texas to be our Manager. I think that might bring our clubhouse back together.
i wish he was already in the clubhouse, but omar didn’t hire him away from texas to protect willie’s winning ego.
my guess is ron washington loses his job soon and rudy steps in there.
do ya ever get the idea, some people need to see the tidalwave 10 feet in front of thier face before they run???? “gee honey where did the water go….. why s the beach line sucked a mile out to sea”……
must be on the bay side….
although theres probably some stat.. that can be twisted to show if you stand sideways directly in its path ,at a 45 degree angle ,with an ankle turned to the left… that theres a 75.7 % chance of surviving…
What exactly has HoJo done? Wright, Reyes, Beltran, Delgado are all in the crapper.
Fire HoJo, lets’ go. Fire HoJo, lets’ go. Fire HoJo, lets’ go.
And Sosa, Heilman, are the Jacket’s fault. And we are still waiting for him to fix Zambrano. Any day now? Oh yeah, he’s gone too.
Oooo and the bat boy for taking too long to get the bats off the feild and getting balls for the ump…
oooo yea definatly the health trainer…i mean what does he really do the whole game…talk about a freeloader….
Exactly.
i think your on to somethin buddy….. (nodding head)
I see a lot of people say Wright has to be a leader, if he’s not ready he’s not ready. I think someday he will be but with the extreme amount of veterans on this club you’d think they’d give DW more time.
Doesn’t a leader have to play by example?? maybe like hustling on every play? DW SHOULD HAVE BEEN BENCHED after that lazy run to first base.
Ironically, it’s not the first time he hasn’t hustled lately. There were a couple of balls he hit in the hole in this series that he could have beat, but instead got thrown out at first because he wasn’t running hard. Very odd and uncharacteristic of Wright.
Maybe he just needs a break?
Maybe he does…why doesn’t the manager sit him, then?
A break from what!!?? the guy plays baseball from a living.
If I’m Omar, I’m think self preservation. This is a nightmare.
I think Beltran & Delgado should be the leaders, the are they elder statesman on the team. If Pedro was there I think things would be different in the clubhouse. Not that it helped last season, but nothing could help us last season.
I agree. While there is no stat or anything to satisfy this..i do think pedro does bring a certian energy to the feild and the clubhouse. Lol by the time he gets here though we might not have willie anymore lol.
i hear ya but they said that last year………
Pedro Who!!!!????? Is he even a Met at this point?? Haven’t seen the guy for two years now….
As you can tell, I really hope not.
The bashers would have won, and they have been bashing him since he got here. Here is a guy who has never had a losing season, but it doesn’t seem to matter.
BTW, my buddy just walked in, he went to the Annual RBI dinner last night and Omar was there, and he said he got the feeling that if the Mets dropped 2 out of 3 to the Yanks, that Charlie Manuel might be promoted to manager.
And he is a Yankeee fan, what does he know?
Do you mean Charlie Samuels?
Well we know Charlie Samuels is efficient when it comes to the team’s travel accomadations, maybe he should have a crack at managing the whole team…
But I think he meant Jerry Manuel….
Thanks, Jerry Manuel.
I noticed nobody even mentioned him in their new managers list and he has been a winning manager before even winning AL manager of the year in 2000.
I think the reason that is is because most people don’t want anybody on the current coaching staff to be the new Manager of the Mets. The belief is if you put Hojo or Manuel as Manager, nothing is going to really change.
Willie’s days may well be numbered. I just question whether firing the manager will have any effect whatsoever on the team’s performance on the field. It may satisfy the fans’ need to anoint a scapegoat, but I’m not sure what that has to do with winning ballgames.
Let’s be careful what we wish for.
what we cant lose without willie ???
He has alot to winning ballgames. I think willie had his shot at managing an up and coming mets team and it worked out well for the begining. I think every since the soul wrenching way they have lost the last two seasons is something the manager is not over. He took a BIG ego shot last year basically guarenteeing victory and avoiding a collapse. I think that has rubbed off on the players and it can be viewed as the players not getting over last year. Im with you on the fact that who knows what the next guy will bring(because at this point its almost certian willies gonna be gone) i just hope its better than what we got and not worse. Im sure the “evaluation” is the FO looking “queitly” into possible replacements. Im sure his firing will have an effect, can only hope it will have a positive one
to do with*
It won’t.
If they are 5 out before the ASB I think he is gone though.
But there is no way the Wilpons make that move if they are essentially in first/tied for first in July.
Willie bashers will have to either hope for a complete collapse, which may not happen because they have a pretty good starting staff and the division is mediocre, or wait until 09.
Like it or not, that is probably the way it will play out.
we won nothing under willie, . with that payroll i have little doubt they can find someone to go under or at. 500 for the next year….
and at least theres a hope someone new can bring in a fresh start..
This is sounding more and more like the the situation that the 2007 Phillies went through, and I hope it ends up the same way.
Look, this is the moment of truth for Randolph. He’s never had his job under such intense fire before in his short career, so I’m interested how he handles it. Who knows, it could turn around like it did for Philly last year, but you can’t give this guy more than 2-3 weeks. More of the same and this team will be under some serious national scrutiny, as they’re starting to be already.
“2007 Phillies went through, and I hope it ends up the same way.”
Getting swept out of the first round of the play-offs?
He’s “been booed before, young man”. Obviously its already under his skin….
Except the Phillies didn’t go on en epic collapse the year before. The situation is a little different.
the phillies were never in a position to collapse…
That’s not the point. The situation is different because of the collapse. Willie is under much more pressure than Manuel was because of what happened last year. Manuel didn’t lead his team to a collapse. Just because they were never in that position is irrelevant. And if they were in that position, something tells me Rollins would never have let it happened.
So if we fire Willie, and this team is still hovering around .500 1 or 2 months from now, where do we go from there?
simply… you lose., same as we ‘ve been doing for a calender year… but you grow more respect and resolve for your team ,knowing they tried everything possible to win…………..
EXACTLY…and then you point the arrows at Omar in October.
Then you blow the whole thing up. You got a number of veteran contracts coming off the books at the end of the year, so you very well may be in rebuilding mode anyway. If this team can’t turn it around and play to its potential under a new manager, then there was never potential there to begin with and you bring in a new team to design a new battle plan.
very interesting point made by boomer e. ..
randolph sat wagner down last week , and toild him not to go to the press and complain about teamates….
what does wagner do a week later???/
willie has no control over that clubhouse … none…..
that could be true.
it also could be true that no one can control billy wagner’s mouth.
ya dont think boomer knows a thing or 2 about clubhouses ,loose cannons and control…….. my money say boomer knows..
i don’t disagree, and i think boomer is generally right. i’m just not sure which manager can keep wagner from going to the press, since no one has his entire career. i wouldn’t use that ALONE to judge whether he has lost the whole team.
i agree, it shouldnt be judged alone….. but i think it’s a long line of things going back to the reyes stuff last year….
I think if Willie goes, the Jacket and Hojo have to go as well.
Julio Franco does not deserve this job….Oberkfell and Backman have paid their dues….give them a shot
I saw a guy in my building when we were walking our dogs this morning who I casually talk baseball with from time to time.
This morning he said to me, “It’s terrible what they’re doing to Willie Randolph. He’s a hell of a coach.”
I didn’t really feel like having a debate, so I just said the team needs to start getting it together and winning cures everything.
So he followed that up with: “I hope they don’t play tonight. It’s tough when our two teams play and someone has to lose.”
I know that’s just one guy, but he might be the kind of fan that is among the last of the Willie supporters. The casual observer. Nothing wrong with being that kind of a fan, but it’s kind of hard to take his opinions seriously when he wants the two teams to somehow figure out a way to split three games.
But all of the true orange and blue Mets fans I know aren’t interested in Willie anymore. Sadly, even the people who once loved Willie have adopted a new Mets slogan: “We’re not winning anything as long as he’s the manager”, and these are people who once LOVED the guy.
Bull, there are a ton of us Willie supporters out there. This guy is no Art Howe, Dallas Green or Jeff Torborg. He has put up winning season in each of his first 3 seasons.
I’m not saying the guy is Davey Johnson. Davey is CLEARLY the best manager we have ever had. Hodges is second.
But after that Willie is right there after Bobby V, (Bobby V is only ahead of him because he made it to the show.)
Willie improved the team 12 games in each of his first 2 seasons. Actually, Pedro & Beltran & Wright had alot to do with it, just like Piazza, Leiter and Hampton helped out Bobby V.
“Bull, there are a ton of us Willie supporters out there. This guy is no Art Howe, Dallas Green or Jeff Torborg. He has put up winning season in each of his first 3 seasons.”
Look at the teams he’s been given. And they are now UNDER .500 in what is essentially one calendar year. This is simply NOT a winning team anymore. It hasn’t been for a little while. And you’re defending the one part that will probably be removed.
A “ton” of Willie supporters? Hitting the bon-bons a little hard, are we? Basically, the few remaining “supporters” tend to float arguments regarding how little a manager has to do with outcome, or how Willie masterfully has us in striking distance of the first place Marlins. Backhanded, at best.
By any objective accounting, the team is discombobulated, sloppy, and dispirited. Our young stars are going backwards. Delgado is the clubhouse third nipple (not a cancer, just unsightly and useless.) Brain-dead plays are burning great starts by young pitchers. The team is finding ways to lose, not to win. And you want to keep the manager???
Yeah a ton. They don’t post though.
Also, the third nipple comment is brilliant and classic , and I want you to know that I will be using that and adding it to my encyclopedia of metaphors.
Good job!
Also, I can’t account for dumb plays, except that everybody makes them, our dumb plays are just more magnified because this is NY, we collapsed last year and people are looking for it.
Almost, I forgot we lost games because of the dumb plays, that also shines a brighter light on it. But, it doesn’t make them more prevalent.
It’s a cliche, but when you win the ball bounces your way, when you don’t … IT doesn’t.
Almost forgot
NOT …
Almost, I forgot
See I made a bonehead typing error, it happens!!!
Yeah a ton. They don’t post though.
Oh. The silent majority. The same silent majority that supported Nixon.
The third nipple of Met fans.
none of the willie supporters post because they can’t figure out how to make an account
A lot of us loved the guy in 2006. He was given the benefit of the doubt in 2007 because of what he did in 2006 and the first 2 months of 2007. But now, it’s over. This team was so primed to come roaring out of the gate to send a message. Then, in spring training, Willie was asked if he talked to the players about the collapse and he said no because he felt he didn’t need to. I got a feeling from that point that this team was doomed. Then, to play the first 40 games the way they did, he no longer gets the benefit of the doubt. The question now is, how much longer will the Wilpons wait to act?
Yep im with ya AMS. I and alot of die hard mets fans and even casual fans have given willie a good shot. Nobody can deny that. I am over the collapse, but this guy is not getting it done. Im still with my opinion that its not the players that are not over the collapse its willie. 3 seasons of heart breaking losses..the last being the biggest. We need to see results because i do believe this team is better than this. Last night was i think the nail in the coffin. We need someone that would have found a way to win yesterday, but it seems we are still in a rut. I liked willie, ive defended willie but at this point we have given him a long enough leash that i think he is at the end of. I dont know who should take his job, but this team needs to be shaken up
Guys, Guys … the Mets are playing like crap, collectively we are batting like .240, our bullpen has an ERA around 6 (thanks to Heilman and Sosa) and we are still 2.5 games out of first.
WE ARE NOT 5 GAMES UNDER .500 !!!!
STOP PANICKING!!!!
Instead of talking about killing Willie, let’s talk about the fact that Pelfrey probably had the best start of his career!!!
How about that? A no hit bid into the 7th, a shutout into the 8th.
Tough break, for the kid, but very promising. Vargas and Pefrey looked great, now if they could find any sort of consistency we will be alright.
“WE ARE NOT 5 GAMES UNDER .500 !!!!
STOP PANICKING!!!!”
He’s right. Wait until we’re 5 games under, and then panic.
It’s the new “Still in first place!” argument.
allready missing shea…….. please stop making so much sense…….
“and we are still 2.5 games out of first.”
Because our division is mediocre, we’re only one game over .500, and with the 7th best record in the NL. I am, or was, as much as an optimist as anyone, but we’re almost 1/4 of the way through the same and so far we just look mediocre.
It would be one thing if the front office seemed to have some sort of long-range plan but as far as I can tell this team was built to win now and worry about the future later. If the best they can do is hover around .500 then something needs to change.
Au contrare, our division is probably second to the AL East in terms of the toughest divisions in all of baseball. Every other division has at least 2 teams sometimes 3 who are going to be the bottom feeder to the people above them.
Now we lost to our bottom feeder, that’s going to happen just like the Yanks lost to the Rays (who are looking more the Marlins these days).
But, we don’t have Pitt and Cincy or Texas & Seattle or SF & San Diego to beat up on.
Our division isn’t mediocre, it’s just more competitive.
terrible comment. we have washington to beat up on. and we don’t.
didn’t both those games end up in losses?
Yes, but let’s talk about how Big Pelf finally delivered. I’d almost rather lose this game 1-0, than Pelf get trashed for 8 runs in 3 innings and we win 9-8.
I like the improvement we saw in these 2 guys. Let’s hope and pray that this wasn’t an abberation, because I think the quiet bats are definitely an abberation. These hitters were not over-acheivers 2 years ago, or for parts of last year. I think the bats will wake up big time and the wins will start piling up as long as we can keep Heilman from screwing it up.
I think we should bring back Figueroa as a long man, he’s perfect for that spot, give him 2 or 3 innings every 5 days and get the ball to Wags.
Right now we can’t afford to carry a long man. Our other guys are doing too poorly.
yeah a no hit bid they LOST in typical brutal fashion…….
05′- brutal september….
06- best team in nl. dosent get it done…..
07′ willie presides over one of the greatest collapses in history…
o8′ – huge payroll , best pitcher in the league.. first 40 games a complete step backwards fromn previous years , same old same ,lackluster head up the ass play….
great job willie..
2005:
Year before we were sub .500, Aug 30 we were 69-62 in 4th place, finished on Sep 30 82-78 and in 3rd place.
2006:
We clicked on all cylinders until playoffs, we had no Pedro or El Duque, we did it with our #3-#5 pitchers and we were 1 hit from the WS. Oh yeah, Heilman blew that one too. But, it’s Willie fault, right?
2007:
Our pitching was decimated, Glavine got old fast , and Reyes went into a funk that he couldn’t shake.
2008:
Our hitters aren’t hitting, our #2 and #5 pitchers have been on the DL all year. Heilman and Sosa have been a disaster. Alou has been out most of the year.
And this is all Willie’s fault, right?!
Stop looking for scapegoats!
You want to improve the team, here’s something, demote Heilman, hope Wise is ready to be the 7th inning guy and make Joe Smith/Showy your 8th inning guy. Bring Figgy back to be the long man.
In the minors maybe Heilman can find that Drysdale slot again and then you can bring him back, until then he is doing more harm to the team and himself.
Killing Willie is not the answer. When Bobby V left, it was clear that his schtick was no longer working. That’s just not the case here.
“Killing Willie is not the answer. When Bobby V left, it was clear that his schtick was no longer working. That’s just not the case here.”
OK, then what is Willie doing that’s working?
Any examples?
The same thing Torre taught him that served Torre for many years … “Try to stay out of the way”.
Funny, I heard Jim Leyland say the same thing.
In the end, all a manager can do is try to put people into spots where they can succeed or grow in the process.
Now, the players have to do there part and if they can’t you get new players.
And the FO, has to spend big money getting the kids who want big signing bonuses like Joba and Hughes.
Also, they need to spend some more money in the scouting department. Omar has done a good job scouring DR for players, but we need to players scouring for talent in the US.
“The same thing Torre taught him that served Torre for many years … “Try to stay out of the way”.”
You know what served Torre for many years? Being the manager of the New York Yankees.
Listen, I love Joe Torre. I grew up watching Joe Torre. And I think he’s one of the best people in baseball; just a great person with a heart of gold.
Now…
Are you familiar with his managerial resume prior to his tenure with the Yankees?
EXACTLY!!!!
Which underscores my reasoning.
Joe Torre is as responsible for the success of his 4 championship as he was for the failure of losing after being up 3-0 or for how bad the Mets were in the 70’s.
A more recent example …
Was Clint Hurdle a genius when they won 28 in a row?
Is he an idiot now because they are 11 games under .500?
In the end, you put the best players you got on the field, and try not to insert yourself into the game.
In the end, it’s up to them.
You think Willie’s schtick is still working? How about last year during the collapse when players were quoted as saying “I know Willie cares, but he doesn’t always show it.” And how about when LoDuca was asked if Willie should stick up more for his players and LoDuca stopped dead in his tracks and didn’t say a word?
And LoDuca is … where is he now?
Not the point. If LoDuca felt that way, I bet a lot of players felt that way too. The fans obviously feel that way because there are usually one million posts about how he never argues with umpires. And Pedro Feliciano called Willie stupid at one point too. Not saying Feliciano is a genius, but the fact that a player is willing to call a manager “stupid” to the press is an obvious sign of a lack of respect. Can you envision a player on the Tigers calling Jim Leyland stupid?
05′ – inherits the newly aquired pedro and beltran…. marked improvement was surely expected….
06′ … no possible excuse can be made for that team losing to the cards… even with the injuries .. they got outstanding pitching… try another excuse..
07′- speaks for it self .. whatever excuse you conjur up….
o8′ the excuse parade continues……
you act like willie was handed the pirates….
Your so right …
the Pirates were 2 games BETTER than the Mets.
Look it up!
Also, the Cards got hot, and you do realize that they ended up winning it all against a Detroit that smoked everybody in their way.
From Adam Rubin:
“Castillo, after a third-inning single, wasn’t hustling when right fielder Austin Kearns dropped David Wright’s fly ball. Castillo trotted into third and contended that he wouldn’t have scored on the play even had he been running hard. Randolph said he didn’t notice Castillo’s speed on the bases, but also concluded it would have been unlikely for him to score. The manager did speak with Wright after that at-bat, since Wright jogged and only reached first.”
The last few weeks, I really tried to drive home the approach that it would be in the best interest of everyone if this team would win WITH Willie. I stopped quite short of defending him, but felt it was in the best interest of the team to go forward and pick up the pace with the least amount of interruptions and distractions.
I can’t even do that anymore. Too much of this crap now. Far too much.
And I am certainly NOT defending Wright. I was there and it was crap all around. But if he didn’t see the whole play, and didn’t at least find out in short order that they both needed to be talked to, then what the hell is his job???
And finally, what kind of manager blows off not running hard because the guy probably wouldn’t have scored anyway? What the hell is going on here?
Well, back in July of 2007, Reyes would have probably been out at first, but he got benched…I’m just saying…
Reyes deserved to get benched, and if Willie wouldn’t have benched him it would have been VERY wrong. Reyes had to (has to?) be mature enough to learn from that and move on. I’m not sure that he has. So Willie was right on that one. BUT, in the same series, Castillo did almost exactly the same thing. And Willie said he didn’t see it.
I might be wrong about it being in the same series based on when Castillo joined the team, but the two plays were almost identical and they weren’t too far apart in the schedule. I should just correct myself there.
I know Reyes was right in getting benched. But prove to Reyes that he treats all his players the SAME way. That he was singling him out…
As a manager of any enterprise you can not treat everybody the same, different people respond to different incentives or tactics.
Also, Willie does not make a habit of disciplining his players in the press. I think he will defend and deflect attention away from them, even when they are wrong. But, behind close doors you can bet he’s reading them the riot act.
Willie is nothing, but classy and reserved, and that just doesn’t fly with people who think that Pinella and Bobby V are the 2nd coming of Casey Stengel.
“Willie is nothing, but classy and reserved, and that just doesn’t fly with people who think that Pinella and Bobby V are the 2nd coming of Casey Stengel.”
Maybe instead of being classy and reserved he should actually, I don’t know, get his head in the game? Even if he WANTED to treat his players the same, he couldn’t. Like on that play where Wright and Castillo both failed to run hard… He talked to Wright, but not Castillo… BECAUSE HE DIDN’T SEE CASTILLO DOING IT!
If it wasn’t so tragic, it would be comical.
And once again, you are defending to a fault the one part of the machine that will probably be gone soon.
If he’s gone, then the Wilpons would have caved in to the Willie Bashers, and they might as well be sellers at the All-Star Break.
Also, wasn’t Castillo supposed to be on the DL. Could that be a reason why he didn’t bust it as he should have and normally does?
“If he’s gone, then the Wilpons would have caved in to the Willie Bashers, and they might as well be sellers at the All-Star Break.”
You don’t actually watch baseball,do you?
where do you see that? i cant find it on rubin’s blog.
I’m sorry it won’t allow me to post the link, but google “Willie Randolph will be all-star assistant” and you should get there.
thanks
Since I couln’t post the link, I’m going to ask that if you read that and feel I’ve taken anything out of context, or if you think my reactions to it are off-base, please call me on it. I’m not trying to be “right”, but this is pretty damn frustrating to take in.
Nope, I read it the same way. I don’t get it. What is Willie watching, if not his baserunners? That’s just frighteningly weird.
He saw it. He just told the press that he didn’t see it because then they would stop questioning it. He didn’t want to be in the position where he had to say anything negative about Castillo because Castillo is a veteran and put his time in the major leagues and earned his stripes.
he also said he didn’t see reyes round 2nd on the play he got thrown out.
what the F is he watching? he’s too busy posting here under his various pseudonyms IMO.
once again… right on the money……ams….
This isn’t a new point, but Willie’s problem seems to me that he is trying to coach a team of 25 of himself. As a player, perhaps he didn’t need to be spoken to about the collapse, or fired up, or whatever. His downfall — at least as it appears to us — is his stubborness in failing to recognize that his players are not all him, outside perhaps Alou, Easley, and Anderson.
Hubris, arrogance…thats his tragic flaw.
His stubbornness is not realizing that these players are not the Yankee teams he has been around in his coaching career. They cannot motivate themselves like those guys were and still are able to. These Mets players need to be taken by the hand and led.
Not so sure about “…still are able to…” The Yankees are actually playing much worse than us, and also just lost 3 out of 4 to the Rays…
Didn’t the Yankees do this last year? Weren’t they 21-29 at one point and were written off for the playoffs? I remember them going 73-37 to finish off the season.
OHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Clint Hurtle just put Willie randolph on his all star team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
noooooooooooooooooooooo,,, this better had on influence the Mets to keep him until after the break… this will no be good
lol
will he wear a blank uniform?
clint hurdle… i meant to say
And please folks …
The only reason the press is piling on is because they read the blogs too and they are chiming in, because they want to sell their newspapers.
Would any of you, be anxious to pick up today’s Newsday to read an article on how Willie loves sunshine and puppies?
This is really getting ridiculous.
So when Willie goes, what are you going to do?
Are you staying a Mets fan or moving on?
The better question is what are you going to do if we keep him?
I’ve been a fan since birth, hell I came out of my mom orange and blue.
No, that’s not a better question. Because you are the one who is putting his role above and beyond the role of the players who will be here after he is gone.
I’ve been to almost every game since he’s been here. Been to all but three this year, and was on my way to one when I was called back home for a family emergency.
I’m not the one putting so much stock in this guy.
You are.
To some, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That’s Willie. Bring in the same guys over and over again, in the same situations, no matter how poorly they perform.
Yes, ultimately it is up to the players. But the manager sets the tone, and this team is dead in the water. I will ask this of any of the Willie apologists:
I think all of us agree that Willie is a poor in-game strategist, but we were sold a bale of goods that he was good in the clubhouse, that players liked and respected him, and that they played hard for him. Does anyone really believe this is still true (if it ever was)? Anyone? If not, why the hell is he here?
If the Mets strugggle over the next two weeks I think it is time to send Willie walking. He needs to be in the American League so he can be just like Joe Torrre sitting there with a bat in hand letting the players play making small decisions. Willie is not a National League manager and it may be time to move on
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